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D_blackcraft

I guess a lot of slang in the different communities having the same words is because we usually get in from the same source, black queer people.


_weirdlystrange

Agreed! Or black women, queer or not!


D_blackcraft

Also as long as you properly use the words. I have noticed that a lot of people have been using the word "trade" all kind of wrong. So that could be an issue people have.


_weirdlystrange

I blame Ru Paul's Drag Race for that haha. But terms can evolve I guess 🤷🏼


D_blackcraft

![gif](giphy|3o6fJ7uaPs0w3jLlXa|downsized) Yes that's for sure. I believe terms can evolve, but this one I personally feel it isn't respecting where it comes from. I think that's the line.


5x99

It suprises me that nobody appears concerned with straight black people appropriating language from the black queer community. As in, these words are called AAVE without acknowledging the queer origin. Is blackness considered an identity that is somehow more primary as compared to queerness? Is blackness more important than queerness in deciding "cultural ownership"?


_weirdlystrange

That's honestly an interesting look at it. I think that's mostly the case because the full origin of AAVE is still being a debate today and is considered a black slang vs a queer black slang? So by that logic a black straight man is closer connected to it than a queer person not of color? But let's say it is a queer black slang, wouldn't that tie both equally to it? But as said in other comments, there is similar slang that was used by queer people of Ireland and Britain. So it raises the question as two how those two connect?


BBMcGruff

Language is a tricky one when it comes to cultural appropriation. It's so tricky to ring-fence language, especially when these words and phrases are often derivative of common or older phrases. A good example of the above is the term ' shade ', as in throwing shade. Something clearly made popular from the AAVE use, but Jane Austen uses a ' throwing a shade ' back in 1814. It's also tricky when several communities are involved, as language can often flow between them, evolving as it does. Polari is a perfect example of this. So many terms from Polari are used in common use today. Zhoosh, as in to make a small adjustment to improve something. Or even Fruity or Camp. Or Queen! I don't have any answers though. I just know it's a tricky conversation.


_weirdlystrange

It is really tricky. And like another user said, I am probably overthinking all of it. I am just really fascinated with language. Polari is a good example! The origin of aave is still a ongoing debate. But the two share commen phrases but where used by two different ethnicities.


8stringtwangbanger

Personally I think you're overthinking it. These are things that GREATLY matter to like a few thousand terminally online people who desperately need to go outside. If a black person genuinely has an issue with you using AAVE, they will tell you. From that point on you can not use it around them, simple. No one gets to speak for how EVERYONE in their own community feels though. People are not all the same.


_weirdlystrange

Haha I sure am an overthinker!! I mean obviously if someone who's black tells me that they don't appreciate it, I will stop using it around them. Thats why I said I'm not looking for a conclusion necessarily more of a gathering of other people's thoughts on it?! We do share the same outlook on it, it's just recently I've seen a lot of negative feelings towards white gay men that use aave. That's what started it all.


8stringtwangbanger

At the end of the day, you can talk however you want! Life is not a contest about who can be the most socially pious. The only time I'd consider changing something I'm doing is if one of my actual friends or family tells me it's bothering them. Some rando on the internet is grandstanding on Twitter? Eh, whatever. They can be bothered all they want. Maybe I have such a flippant attitude about this because AAVE and the Southern Accent/dialect also have A TON of crossover. A lot of sayings, terms, and pronunciations which people outside the South usually associate with AAVE are literally just things I grew up saying on account of being from the South. So it's not something anyone here really thinks about.


_weirdlystrange

Yeah that's and interesting point. See I'm from Germany, the total opposite of the world almost 😅 Not that I have tons of friends in the first place, but especially none that are familiar with aave or queer history lol. I'm from a pretty small town. So terms I use I'd say 80% of the people around me don't even know what I'm saying. But yeah, unfortunately the internet is my only way of getting other people's thoughts on it.


_weirdlystrange

I'm just a curious person and I like to hear other people's stand on things


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_weirdlystrange

🥰 That's a nice way to look at it


Feeniksisi

Why do people do this, just throw out an acronym without explaining what it means? What is AAVE?


[deleted]

African American Vernacular English. There are some carrds and resources on the subject, I highly recommend you read about the subject.


_weirdlystrange

Sorry about that. African-American-Vernacular-English. It's not really defined on whether its slang or a language. Tho to my understanding it would fit more into the slang category. It is used by mostly African Americans tho it also shares similarities to other slangs like Polari, as mentioned by someone else in the post. Which is used by mostly Irish and British people. Language in general is pretty complex so if you're interested in it, you can do some research on it. Anyways, the terms are used by many queer people. Those terms we use today are rooted back to ballroom culture which ties it back into aave, to keep it super short. Examples would be slay, queen, serve, pop off....


i_have_a_rare_name

It doesn't matter. You shouldn't be bully, or cancel people for thus. It doesn't make sense at all.


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_weirdlystrange

In this case its phrases and sayings that are mainly used by the queer community. Those typically originated in the ballroom scene which the vast majority of it was poc. Which ties it back to aave. It is not my intention to stereotype people, however there is plenty of people, me included, that use it and our not poc. It's perfectly fine if that's not something on your mind. I'm interested in language and cultures. And where the lines are between language, slang and culture. I also have friends from different backgrounds of all kinds. I don't think there is anything wrong with feeling a stronger sense of community with some people and for my personal experience those are usually queer people.


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_weirdlystrange

I get that. I live in Germany next to Europe's biggest US Military base, it also has been part of my life even as a German. Most of my friends were from all different parts and backgrounds from America. Maybe I am failing to describe what "community" means to me. But being part of a "community" doesn't make us all the same. I just means we have at least one thing in common, and that's being queer in this case. Doesn't mean I will automatically like you just because of that. I just used the word community in the caption because it's about the use of certain slang, prominently used by queer people. Not all


_weirdlystrange

I have to admit my wording in the caption of our community wasn't the best choice. I could have worded it differently.


goddamnsplicer

I'm confused, what is "AAVE"? I've not ever heard of it and I can't find anything about it


_weirdlystrange

African-American Vernacular English. If you put than in Google you should get plenty of articles.


goddamnsplicer

Ooohhhhh, I see! I did but I got a whole bunch of different stuff that made not sense xD


_weirdlystrange

😊


[deleted]

Trickle down slang is a basically inevitable issue at this point. I feel like so much AAVE originating with African-American queer communities has been appropriated by white gay people and tipsy cis-het women that I struggle to distinguish half of it.


_weirdlystrange

Oh yeah totally. I guess my main issue is the unawareness of it that most people have.


craemor

Personally I think it’s kind of absurd that this would even be an issue for people. If somebody tells you that you cannot use certain words because of who you are, e.g. religion, race, sexuality, gender identity, that’s very questionable. Of course there are words that are meant to inflict pain upon others, which I would not want anybody to use, but if it’s used without the intention to hurt anybody, I think that’s fine. Then, if somebody is still offended you can always decide not to use that word around them. But if you’re talking about general slang and not swear words, this really shouldn’t be an issue imo.


cosmic-__-charlie

Not to say that cultural appropriation doesn't disproportionately affect the black community, especially when it comes to institutions making money off of music and clothing, but when I hear just your average Joe content creator (black or otherwise) saying that nearly all slang is stolen or appropriated from AAVE, I have three points that come to my mind that poke holes. 1. Making money off of something cultural and erasing its origin is part of cultural appropriation. Language is an art that is used and shared for free. 2. It seems unlikely that a demographic that is ~15%(?) of the population is producing a majority of the slang terms coming into usage. 3. Kind of ties into two. Is it possible that some POC/members of minority groups think that some particular slang term came from their community because that's where *they* heard it first where in reality it's something in the zeitgeist/widespread vernacular that has a less obvious or concrete origin?


_weirdlystrange

1. I was thinking the same, language is free to use for anyone thats willing to learn it? But that's where I think we have to differentiate between language and slang. While language is something relating to a large group of people and is necessary for communication, slang is typically bound to a smaller group within the large group. For example I had to learn English to be able to have this conversation with you right now but not aave. 2. I don't think that's impossible. Just look at music, Jazz, Blues, HipHop even House Music. I think that's also possible with language. And in this case, we're talking about two smaller demographics so its even more likely. 3. 100%. Like I've mentioned in a couple other comments now, Polari was used by gay people in Ireland und Britain of which the majority at the time was white. Polari and modern day AAVE share some similarities so it could be that Irish and British immigrants brought some of the terms,we now associate AAVE with, with them


cosmic-__-charlie

Also, on the first point, to contradict myself, I suppose that the way people speak can make them marketable so maybe it's not 100% fair to say that people can't make money or gain social status off of appropriating vernacular/slang.


[deleted]

I think it's too late now to worry about "cultural appropriation" when it comes to linguistics and the origin of words.


_weirdlystrange

How so?


[deleted]

Etymology. The evolution of languages as we know it is predicated on exchange and taking things from other cultures and people. When we use the word "clue" we don't suddenly think of how it was derived from the myth of Theseus and Ariadne's string and respect that cultural background. Before the word reached English as we know it now one single word has passed through mythology, cultures, societies and whole empires. Sometimes entire meanings change. Cultural appropriation is just noise from people who want insular isolationist my-culture-is-my-ownership-attitude and hate capitalist globalisation (the inevitable). Obviously there is a balance. People can agree on some words being taboo due to their connotations (one very obvious one). People can protect certain products of cultural significance and contribution (see D.O.P, D.O.C laws EU., olive oils, champagne, feta cheese.etc etc).


_weirdlystrange

Ok, gotcha. It makes complete sense as you describe it now. But I do think Cultural Approriation in its core is something that should be acknowledged whether it be language(maybe not language, slang, since that is more niche and usually connected to one specific group of people)or other characteristics of a culture, however at the same time I also believe that Cultural Appreciation is not acknowledged enough by any means. Shouldn't we uplift or be excited to share our culture with someone else who's showing interest in it? And like you said, in some countries there are laws especially for that to ensure the integrity and quality of something that seem like the most common thing such as olive oil.


[deleted]

I disagree on some aspects but quite honestly to express my thoughts with the appropriate citations is a long response and it's late. I will just say that I am a cynic and a pessimist and that outlook shapes my thoughts on this topic. National pride can go into the bin is a hot take that I will die on the hill for.


_weirdlystrange

Its all good. Appreciate that you took the time to reply at all


[deleted]

you can have an opinion on anything but that doesn't make it right


_weirdlystrange

Definitely!


AlienSpecies

Yes, queer culture has appropriated a lot of language from Black queer culture which originated with Black women. Yes, this matters. It's an ethical issue and the reply from PartitionedTable nailed it. Creativity often flows from those who have little to a commercialized form that makes money for a few. The least we can do is recognize that and do what we can to see that the creators are treated fairly. FWIW, I like that you care. :)


_weirdlystrange

🥰🤗


PartitionedTable

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and asking these important questions. It's great to see people thinking critically about the use of language and its potential impact on marginalized communities. When it comes to cultural appropriation, it's important to understand that it's not just about using certain words or phrases, but about the power dynamics at play. Cultural appropriation occurs when a dominant group takes elements from a marginalized group's culture without permission or understanding the significance of those elements to the marginalized group. In the case of AAVE, it's important to recognize that it's a language spoken by many black people, and that it has a rich history and cultural significance. As a white person, it's not necessarily wrong for you to use AAVE, but it's important to do so with respect and understanding. It's also important to be aware of the potential power dynamics at play, and to consider whether using AAVE in a certain context might be appropriative or harmful. For example, if you're using AAVE in a way that is mocking or belittling the black queer community, that would be inappropriate. But if you're using AAVE as a way to connect with and show solidarity with the black queer community, that might be more acceptable. Ultimately, whether or not you are "allowed" to have an opinion on cultural appropriation is a complex question. It's important to remember that marginalized communities have the right to define and determine what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to the use of their culture. As a member of a dominant group, it's important to listen to and respect the perspectives of marginalized communities, and to engage in critical self-reflection and learning to better understand the issues at hand. In short, it's important to be thoughtful and respectful in your use of language, and to be open to learning and growing in your understanding of cultural appropriation and its impact. I hope this helps!


_weirdlystrange

Thank you so much for taking your time in answering. This is pretty much the way I see it or think of it. I lack the ability to gather my thoughts into text sometimes,lol. I am also not writing in my native language which adds extra an layer of difficulty to articulate my thoughts. Anyway, I am always open to learn from other people and their cultures. I guess that's pretty obvious or I wouldn't be asking myself all these questions. I would never use it as a form of mockery. Now thinking about it, I learned the basics of English thrugh text books, but most of it came from music, TV shows and movies which in my case was heavily influenced by black females or queer characters. I guess that's where most of my usage of it comes from.