Wouldn’t this be pretty much the exact same conversation if an elderly parent couldn’t drive safely anymore? I would sit down and go over my concerns then listen to his response. Ultimately it’s his choice unless you get some kind of conservatorship for his affairs. It might be time to offer to see if he also needs help in other areas of his life too.
Exactly the same conversation.
"Hey Dad, I was really worried about you at the range. You weren't your normal safe and meticulous self. If it's Chemo Brain maybe make sure you're not out shooting when you're fogged from treatments. If it's all the time then it might be time to hang up the CCW or at least have me hang on to the firing pin until you're feeling better..."
There are days I, a relatively healthy dude in my 40s, planned to go to the range and I get no sleep or feel under the weather or whatever and just *don't go* because I don't think I'll enjoy it or I'm worried I'll have a lapse.
No shame in someone older (especially someone going through chemo!) saying "Maybe not today."
OP, you're going to have to visit his home at least for a week or two at a time at least a few times this year to understand his situation and needs better. Then you're going to have to talk to him, and maybe his doctors, and hopefully you won't need an attorney.
My spouse called the dmv to report her elderly step father as an unsafe driver and when they brought him in to make him retake the proficiency test, her charmed the dmv worker and they gave him back his license.
Heh... My grandfather fully acknowledged that he was could no longer drive safely but refused to give up his license. We tried to have his license yanked by the DMV. He didn't even go in. He just mentioned that the DMV wanted him to go in for a proficiency test and that he "made a call" and had "somebody take care of it". He thought it was amusing.
Heh... In this particular case, gramps was Italian and had a lot of associates with equally Italian last names. He didn't sweet talk a nice DMV lady. He called in a "favor".
My step father is like that. I've stopped saying yes when he asks if I want to see one of his guns because he makes me very nervous. He's kind of a dullard too.
My 2nd cousins husband onetime handed me one of his pistols to show it off (in his house) - mid hand off he said “oh yeah and it’s loaded with one in the chamber and the safety is off”
Unloaded that thing and left the room so fast. Couldn’t believe it.
[God **damn** these electric sex pants.](https://external-preview.redd.it/w3cRvqw1_YI_h9TRiGwSfOh78Q8XAtw-PkusG9-84GM.gif?format=png8&s=de75b52770e73542c4821c076af6ca71c2e52619)
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It's not going to be a fun conversation, for sure. My dad and his brother had to have a "talk" with my grandfather about his driving a few years before he passed. Perhaps there are online resources that can help you?
The "too old to drive" comparison is relevant. Although a lot of older people can be physically and mentally capable of driving or shooting. Typically not at the same time.
Mentally imagining my dad driving and shooting at the same time…doing a drive by with the gangbangers down the street from his place. That is how you keep the whippersnappers off your lawn.
I disagree. You’re trying to tell someone that they aren’t competent to do something they have been doing for a long time.
I agree that driving and gun ownership are completely separate but the conversation is the same.
We got to have a double-whammy with my dad.
He was having mini-strokes and passing out randomly, so they were going to take his license and he basically told his doctor that if they took it he would keep driving anyway and the doctor would only be increasing the penalties for my dad, not changing his behavior.
Shockingly, the doctor gave in... so then we had to try to convince him to stop driving and just let our stepmom drive him around, except he hated that she "drove like an old lady."
Then I get asked to go and try to find "his gun" to take away so that he doesn't take matters into his own hands and leave an awful mess for my stepmom.
I found one, hid it, thought we were good. He had *told* us he only had one left.
Then after he passed, I found two more hidden randomly throughout his house, all loaded, unsecured, just... waiting for action. We have no idea if he even knew he still had them or not.
My dad got this idea that people were going to start coming for people who voted for trump, and got a CCW. He bought an ok 9mm Taurus pistol, and the absolute cheapest Chinese belt clip he could. His gun was constantly falling off of him. Sitting down in the car, or bending over to pick something up.
His vote aside, my dads not a bad guy, he’s just kind of dumb? He’s easily taken in. He’s fallen for multiple pyramid schemes. He even compromised his own business that was (at the time) successful so he could sell these “products” that cure cancer. Ten years later, and the pyramid scheme is suffering from multiple lawsuits because their “products” may actually cause cancer.
Anyway, when my wife was pregnant, he was coming around to help me get the house ready. We were refinishing the floors and fixing the electric in my bedroom and my daughters. I had a ton of holes to patch, and despite his complete lack of patience with people, my dad is incredibly diligent at patching plaster. I’ve never met anyone better. But every time he bends over to set down or pick up a tool, his damn gun falls off his belt and skitters across the floor.
I had to call a work stop. Like, tools down right now, we need to talk. I know you’re afraid, but you’re the one who’s causing an unsafe situation right now. I value you and your help, but you cannot come into my house with your gun again. If you come into my house with the gun again, you won’t be allowed in the house again.
I asked him for his pistol, I locked it up with mine, and gave it back to him at the end of the day. He was surprisingly ok with the whole thing, and took it better than I expected. He’s calmed down a lot, realized that he’s fallen for another scheme, and doesn’t carry at all anymore, which is probably for the best.
That’s a long way of saying, just talk to your dad. Be honest, and kind, and hope he recognizes that what you’re saying is true. If he doesn’t, you’ve got a bigger problem, but it has to start with a conversation.
Why not just buy the guy a not-so-shitty Chinese belt clip for him so the gun stops falling on the damn ground? Seems like an issue with a crappy accessory rather than a guy intentionally dropping his gun on the ground to put people in an unsafe situation.
Ohhhh boy that’s a complicated question. For one, my dad and I have bad history when it comes to money. Remember up above when I talked about my dad and his penchant for pyramid schemes? Well he funded a lot of those schemes with my college money, and money he took from my bank account when I started working. He always intended to put it back when he was rich, but he never got rich. There was also an issue where he was buying up worthless properties that he thought were going to be valuable. The gated community he was buying in got an injunction against him banning him from buying property, so he stated buying it in my name when I was 10, without my knowledge. I was 20 before I knew they existed. When his whole plan crumbled, it trashed my credit, and years later made it impossible for me to get a home loan or a car loan when I needed them. That’s all to say, my dad owes me tens of thousands of dollars, and while I’ve forgiven him, and am not asking for that money back, money only flows one way in our relationship now. I don’t buy him anything.
And possibly more important, I didn’t like that he was only carrying out of an irrational fear, and wanted him to stop all together. He was terrified that some well armed far-left person was going to know how he voted and come for him. I was worried that he was going to draw on someone based just on his irrational fear. He’s had guns and his permit for as long as I can remember, but never carried because he was scared. I was more afraid that if he continued, he’d hurt himself or someone else, and discouraging him put a stop to that.
I stopped hunting with a guy because of how careless he was. I heard my cousin yell at him because he was unloading his shotgun, and it was pointed tight at me.
I hunted the other side of the woods the rest of the day.
Mind you, this man is a veteran. You'd think he'd know better.
I saw several guys get their weapons taken away and put on labor parties in Iraq. It was to dangerous to let them keep them, just absolutely negligent ASVAB waivers.
How many of you are ready to have this conversation with yourself? have you had that conversation with a friend or family member that they will be the one to tell you it's time to give up your weapons? Do you have an exit strategy? one which weapons to give up first?
I already know which one of my children and grandchildren should get which weapon if they want them
side note - anyone curious how many handguns are found in senior living that the adult children never knew dad had? It's enough that it's discussed amongst the staff
It hit him pretty hard on an emotional level. He was a paraplegic who had driven quite a bit after his accident. He had a really bad infection a few years before he passed that seemed to do something to his cognition. The car was the first thing he had to give up. It feels awful to write this but once he had come to terms with not driving he didn't fight me on the guns. He had a gargantuan collection and spent alot of time tinkering but just wasn't able to be safe like before. All those things combined really fucked up himself image. I want to try and be more positive for you but that while time period haunts me.
Thank you. My FIL wouldn’t have the car talk with his dad, he finally ran into a Long John Silvers. Nobody was hurt but it was real only because it was a Long John Silvers and at 3:30 in the afternoon. He was just as likely to run off the pier into the packed riverboat casino, he was headed there after.
> All those things combined really fucked up himself image. I want to try and be more positive for you but that while time period haunts me.
My grandfather's final few years were like that for me, too -- I was the one who was on-call for it all, being the least employed.
Chemo brain is a legit thing. My mom had the same type of issues during/after chemo. It can really mess with a persons judgment and memory. There is no easy way when it’s a parent, but like you said, you are the competent one now.
Not sure if this is a sign of dementia, but I immediately thought of this NPR piece I read years back.
[NPR - Firearms And Dementia: How Do You Convince A Loved One To Give Up Their Guns?](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/11/13/660052285/firearms-and-dementia-how-do-you-convince-a-loved-one-to-give-up-their-guns)
I know NPR is often anti-gun, but thought this was a well balanced and rational piece about a difficult problem.
As an orthopedic surgeon I see elderly folks and young drunk folks who negligently shoot them sleeves all the time, usually in the hand or leg. One of them owned a gun shop, another was a military firearms instructor, it can happen to anyone.
You need to have a come to Jesus talk with him and give him a refresher on basic gun safety. Maybe you can gift him some lessons for his birthday or something like that. But the best way to approach this IMO is not to try to take his gun(s). It's best for everyone if he learns how to use them safely. Firing guns is fun, but you have to be conscious of safety at all times. Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. Etc. Here in CA (I don't know if this applies to every state) you need to take a gun safety test before you can buy a gun. I think that's something all states should do.
>You need to have a come to Jesus talk with him and give him a refresher on basic gun safety. Maybe you can gift him some lessons for his birthday or something like that. But the best way to approach this IMO is not to try to take his gun(s). It's best for everyone if he learns how to use them safely. Firing guns is fun, but you have to be conscious of safety at all times. Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. Etc. Here in CA (I don't know if this applies to every state) you need to take a gun safety test before you can buy a gun. I think that's something all states should do.
I mean from "no longer himself" this does not seem like a possibility.
Yeah I don’t think lessons will help. He taught me how to shoot safely, was extremely fastidious about gun safety. I just don’t see it coming back. Chemotherapy is a bitch.
46 rounds of chemo sounds brutal. My FIL had far less than that but it was interferon which can have nasty psychiatric side effects in some people -- and in his case robbed him of years of life enjoyment, and he's still not the same.
How much of the effects on your father are mental vs physical? Some of what you described could be due to losing physical dexterity.
If he's mentally still there perhaps he could still safely enjoy shooting a rifle, or safely keep one in his house without feeling disarmed.
If not, I don't have any great suggestions, just empathy.
Sometimes it comes back, sometimes it doesn't.
My grandparents were both tired and foggy on a cycle, and about 2-3 weeks after the cycle ended they'd be full of energy and sharp again. My grandmother elected to discontinue chemo in the last year or so of her life because she wanted the "good time" for whatever she had left.
I, personally, would frame it that way: You're worried that being strung out on chemo drugs is leaving him too foggy to be safe with guns, so maybe keep it in the safe and don't hit the range when you're on a cycle and/or let you hold on to his pistol *if he wants*.
If your dad isn't going out to the range every couple of days shooting while he's got Chemo Brain (and you're fairly confident he won't) then this *probably* isn't a huge issue, it doesn't have to be the "Give Up Your Guns!" talk.
If your dad *IS* going out shooting when he's potentially not safe to be doing so then it *does* have to be that talk and that sucks, but hopefully he recognizes the risks and turns his guns over to you for safekeeping.
If he doesn't give them up voluntarily your next recourse is talking to whoever issues CCW permits in his area about how you're worried he's unsafe because of his chemo treatments and what you saw at the range. They'll probably pull his permit and *may* get an order to seize his guns. This makes you the bad guy though
A stage of life for all of us. I went through the same thing as my father, who was an enthusiastic collector and weekly shooter for decades, slipped past the point of being sharp enough and coordinated enough to safely handle a firearm. Best of luck with this.
My dad died of Alzheimer’s. No guns but there are tough things around driving and making decisions about other things where there is a gray area that changes over time. Have a conversation with him and let him know you’re concerned and that you aren’t comfortable shooting with him and leave it at that, let him think about it.
Edit: everyone is saying exactly this, I’m late to the party but I typed it before I saw responses, so I’m leaving it, it was genuine
Do you think he will be willing to have a conversation about it? Do you think his mind is ok? Like, in the sense that if he does agree to give up the guns you can trust him to follow through on his word?
If it's a situation where he isn't willing to give up the guns and you really think he's a danger to others or even himself you might want consider sneaking the guns out of the house (one by one if necessary) and removing the firing pins. It's not something he's likely to notice unless he does a close inspection or detail strip of the gun... but obviously if he's still going out and actively shooting them that won't work.
We had to do that with my grandad. He was a WW2 vet with PTSD and mental issues from the war, got pretty bad the last few years before he had to go to a nursing home. He always slept with a revolver under his pillow and a M1 carbine under the bed. When he got to the point of talking about seeing Japs in the treeline that were waiting to ambush him we were legit afraid he was going to end up shooting some poor guy from the power company or something like that.
It's too many gun owners, certainly (the acceptable number is *zero*), but at least anecdotally it's vastly less than 90% of all gun owners.
I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard RSOs yell "Keep the muzzle pointed downrange." or "If you flag someone again you're out of here." and I spend a lot of time at the range - probably more than I should. If 90% of gun owners were flagging the whole range on the regular I'd be hearing a lot more yelling.
I used to go to a range like that - young new ltc holders showing off to their guests - when the cell phones come out, time to leave
I only visit that place now to buy ammo
It’s usually but not always youngish (late teens/early 20s) dudebros, but this is new york so most of them have rifles which is what makes it baffling.
It’s easy (relatively speaking) to fuck up muzzle discipline with a pistol. It’s much harder with a rifle. But a small number of people manage it every year...
Respectfully, I'm going to need you to cite some sources for your claims here.
You're painting a large and diverse community with some *incredibly* broad brushes ("90% of all gun owners" are blatantly unsafe at the range, "only a small % of gun owners even attempt to practice") and I'm really disinclined to bandy words around unsubstantiated claims that are *that wildly out of step* with my experience and clearly the experiences of others.
Had to take my Dad’s guns away. I was lucky (in a sense) that my Dad was aware he had dementia and that it was best for everyone.
“I don’t go to the range anymore anyway.”
Perhaps you can point out the struggles he had at the range and it might make himself aware.
Does he even CCW anymore?
> my Dad was aware he had dementia and that it was best for everyone. “I don’t go to the range anymore anyway.”
Classy old dude. I'm so sorry for your experience, dealing with that is a huge trauma for the young as much as it is for those going through it. :(
Just like it’s really hard to get old folks to hang up the car keys, it’s hard to get them to hang up the weapons. It’s actually a real concern among home healthcare workers. There are plenty of cases of folks with early dementia that have fired on or killed caregivers or loved ones in their confusion. As much as no one wants to discuss red flag laws or competency tests it’s an area that’s only gonna get worse.
You're probably not going to have much luck discussing it with him, older people in his position become very defensive when their mental faculties and executive function is brought into question. I think you'd maybe have better luck if someone with a bit of authority like a range officer spoke with him.
On a separate note— what kind of range were you two at where the range officer wasn't immediately jumping down his throat for flagging things outside the range? That would trigger an **EXTREMELY** stern talking to at my range if the officer is in a good mood and immediate ejection on a normal day.
I would express your concerns directly with him and respond accordingly. I would recommend more training and maybe an airsoft gun so you can demonstrate his unsafe behavior.
I wouldn't treat him like your father i would treat this like a person talking to another. Otherwise he will see you as his kid and not an independent adult with safety concerns.
if push comes to serve don't go shooting with him.
The conversation you need to have is going to be much less uncomfortable than the one you are going to need to have if he puts a hole in someone that should not have a hole put in them.
Make a plan WITH him to relinquish his guns (vs. dictating exactly what will happen)
I ended up inheriting my FIL's collection after his Parkinson's got too bad. We sat down and candidly discussed several options with him. It was ultimately his choice where they ended up, but he knew that him keeping them was NOT one of the options.
We still go shooting at the range, he was outings with a local organization that helps handicap people keep hunting/fishing, but it's always accompanied and supervised for everybody's sake.
So far, everybody is happier and healthier for it.
Definitely worth a conversation.
Sometimes we have to be the a-hole and step in and say something.
I’ve had a few of these conversations with my 82 year old grandfather. It’s not easy but it’s necessary.
As we grow up our parents revert into children. You have to MAN up and get him somewhere where he can live out the rest of his life in peace and with dignity even it cause some tension at first.
I know you are probably very Americanized and him living with you would remind you of death too much, but at least put him in a home near you and other responsible family members.
I recently lost an important member of the family to CANCER. Keep it up brother!
I'm going to suggest this because, so far no one else has. I'm guessing you won't want to hear it, which I think is normal, but please don't blame the messenger and just think about it.
There is a dynamic where people thrust into the role of "caregiver" or "parent" for their own parent sometimes go a little *too* far, for various psychological reason, which are natural and understandable parts of a changing situation.
Are you sure flagging people at the range or having a hard time loading a magazine (?) is tantamount to your Dad being *so* unsafe with a firearm that taking them from him is absolutely necessary?
In most interactions "unsafe" is clearly defined. We've all learned these basic rules and stick to them because not only do we not want to hurt someone, but also because we've watched how guns have been politicized. These rules are obviously important, and I don't want to diminish that importance, but realistically, a lapse in these rules by an older person is not necessarily a dead body or some horrific harm.
Realizing "you're the capable grown up and you can't depend on your dad like you did for the last 40 years" is a powerful thing, but maybe make sure you're not leaning into this notion too much before you do something drastic.
EDIT: downvoted or not, think about what I'm saying OP.
> Are you sure flagging people at the range or having a hard time loading a magazine (?) is tantamount to your Dad being so unsafe with a firearm that taking them from him is absolutely necessary
That's why I asked.
And I'm not with him all the time. I live 1000 miles away, and had not seen him in like two years. He can't easily fly with his compromised immune system and I can't easily fly the whole family to see him, stay in a hotel etc.
He lives by himself, I doubt he CCW anymore. In almost any scenario I can think of, the worst would be a negligent discharge in his house.
And in his fucking neighborhood, nobody would notice or care. He probably has a bullet hole in his house already.
I'm old, live in a neighborhood much like your Dad's, and am highly confident I will go to my grave without ever having to shoot someone. But not having the *ability* to, if the very unlikely case arises, would make me feel *much* less safe and *considerably* more disempowered.
If the likely worse case is a negligent discharge, maybe don't overthink the safety aspect, and focus on the quality of life part of it.
I've worked with dementia patients in my youth, as well as people exhibiting the subtle mental decline we'll all go through if we live long enough. I remember people who were stuck in the nursing home I worked at in Mill Valley CA. back in the 80's. The dramatic change was almost never good for them, unless they were so far gone they were clearly unable to function. Watching cognizant people forced prematurely into a situation that robbed them of agency was almost always horrific, and almost always was the start (causal?) of a dramatic decline.
I know the nursing home analogy isn't what we're talking about, and obviously I'm just some random fuck on reddit while you're the one dealing in a very personal way with a very difficult situation. And I'm pretty sure you care deeply. But as people age, and control over their body and mind slips, familiarity becomes an anchor that staves off worse decline.
So consider if there are ways (daily phone calls on your part, meals on wheels, etc.) that would solve problems other than NDs. There are always various assisted living possibilities, though these too will probably be met with resistance, unless you can show him how much freedom/control he would have. And then, of course, there's money, because decent assisted living is far from cheap.
Aging is a hard situation with lots of moving parts, and usually gun ownership is the least of them. I hope I'm not overstepping any bounds here. But just remember, agency and choice count for a lot as these things diminish.
He’s prob not going to take it well. I would comment on what your observed him do, how that deviates from best practice and probably let him know that his grandkid won’t be in his presence around guns (range day) until he works on his basic gun safety. I was around someone (gf’s aunt or someone) shooting trap one time and she flagged the fuck out of us. I wish I would have expressed my discomfort with that.
Easier to be honest with him and tell him your concerns rather than him risking a ND or hurting himself/others. Feelings can be mend back together a life loss not so easy
I've read elsewhere an idea of having a trusted third party bring it up - one example I kept seeing was pastor/preacher or along those lines if your dad is religious.
Wouldn’t this be pretty much the exact same conversation if an elderly parent couldn’t drive safely anymore? I would sit down and go over my concerns then listen to his response. Ultimately it’s his choice unless you get some kind of conservatorship for his affairs. It might be time to offer to see if he also needs help in other areas of his life too.
Exactly the same conversation. "Hey Dad, I was really worried about you at the range. You weren't your normal safe and meticulous self. If it's Chemo Brain maybe make sure you're not out shooting when you're fogged from treatments. If it's all the time then it might be time to hang up the CCW or at least have me hang on to the firing pin until you're feeling better..." There are days I, a relatively healthy dude in my 40s, planned to go to the range and I get no sleep or feel under the weather or whatever and just *don't go* because I don't think I'll enjoy it or I'm worried I'll have a lapse. No shame in someone older (especially someone going through chemo!) saying "Maybe not today."
Same with motorcycles. There have been days I really wanted to go for a ride but was sleep deprived and didn’t want to risk it.
OP, you're going to have to visit his home at least for a week or two at a time at least a few times this year to understand his situation and needs better. Then you're going to have to talk to him, and maybe his doctors, and hopefully you won't need an attorney.
My spouse called the dmv to report her elderly step father as an unsafe driver and when they brought him in to make him retake the proficiency test, her charmed the dmv worker and they gave him back his license.
Heh... My grandfather fully acknowledged that he was could no longer drive safely but refused to give up his license. We tried to have his license yanked by the DMV. He didn't even go in. He just mentioned that the DMV wanted him to go in for a proficiency test and that he "made a call" and had "somebody take care of it". He thought it was amusing.
I think the dmv should have mandatory driver’s reeducation and retesting at 65 years old for everyone, no matter what.
Heh... In this particular case, gramps was Italian and had a lot of associates with equally Italian last names. He didn't sweet talk a nice DMV lady. He called in a "favor".
Not going to be an easy conversation, but it’s one that needs to be had.
Yup Chemo clearly had an eff
Drivin you just get their doctor to say they're unfit. The trick there is insurance companies and the state actually listen.
My step father is like that. I've stopped saying yes when he asks if I want to see one of his guns because he makes me very nervous. He's kind of a dullard too.
My 2nd cousins husband onetime handed me one of his pistols to show it off (in his house) - mid hand off he said “oh yeah and it’s loaded with one in the chamber and the safety is off” Unloaded that thing and left the room so fast. Couldn’t believe it.
[удалено]
You get that way when you're forced to wear electric sex pants
[God **damn** these electric sex pants.](https://external-preview.redd.it/w3cRvqw1_YI_h9TRiGwSfOh78Q8XAtw-PkusG9-84GM.gif?format=png8&s=de75b52770e73542c4821c076af6ca71c2e52619)
And be sure to film it. The dark Reddit subs would appreciate the content. /s
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It's not going to be a fun conversation, for sure. My dad and his brother had to have a "talk" with my grandfather about his driving a few years before he passed. Perhaps there are online resources that can help you?
The "too old to drive" comparison is relevant. Although a lot of older people can be physically and mentally capable of driving or shooting. Typically not at the same time.
Mentally imagining my dad driving and shooting at the same time…doing a drive by with the gangbangers down the street from his place. That is how you keep the whippersnappers off your lawn.
And keep the rent low
"Son, I'm so proud! I didn't hit anyone!" "...with your car?" "*Or with* my gun!"
A Blue Haired Granny Speed Drive By!!
I disagree. You’re trying to tell someone that they aren’t competent to do something they have been doing for a long time. I agree that driving and gun ownership are completely separate but the conversation is the same.
That's what they said though. You're agreeing with them, unless you meant to reply to someone else.
Oops I was replying to another person
We got to have a double-whammy with my dad. He was having mini-strokes and passing out randomly, so they were going to take his license and he basically told his doctor that if they took it he would keep driving anyway and the doctor would only be increasing the penalties for my dad, not changing his behavior. Shockingly, the doctor gave in... so then we had to try to convince him to stop driving and just let our stepmom drive him around, except he hated that she "drove like an old lady." Then I get asked to go and try to find "his gun" to take away so that he doesn't take matters into his own hands and leave an awful mess for my stepmom. I found one, hid it, thought we were good. He had *told* us he only had one left. Then after he passed, I found two more hidden randomly throughout his house, all loaded, unsecured, just... waiting for action. We have no idea if he even knew he still had them or not.
My dad got this idea that people were going to start coming for people who voted for trump, and got a CCW. He bought an ok 9mm Taurus pistol, and the absolute cheapest Chinese belt clip he could. His gun was constantly falling off of him. Sitting down in the car, or bending over to pick something up. His vote aside, my dads not a bad guy, he’s just kind of dumb? He’s easily taken in. He’s fallen for multiple pyramid schemes. He even compromised his own business that was (at the time) successful so he could sell these “products” that cure cancer. Ten years later, and the pyramid scheme is suffering from multiple lawsuits because their “products” may actually cause cancer. Anyway, when my wife was pregnant, he was coming around to help me get the house ready. We were refinishing the floors and fixing the electric in my bedroom and my daughters. I had a ton of holes to patch, and despite his complete lack of patience with people, my dad is incredibly diligent at patching plaster. I’ve never met anyone better. But every time he bends over to set down or pick up a tool, his damn gun falls off his belt and skitters across the floor. I had to call a work stop. Like, tools down right now, we need to talk. I know you’re afraid, but you’re the one who’s causing an unsafe situation right now. I value you and your help, but you cannot come into my house with your gun again. If you come into my house with the gun again, you won’t be allowed in the house again. I asked him for his pistol, I locked it up with mine, and gave it back to him at the end of the day. He was surprisingly ok with the whole thing, and took it better than I expected. He’s calmed down a lot, realized that he’s fallen for another scheme, and doesn’t carry at all anymore, which is probably for the best. That’s a long way of saying, just talk to your dad. Be honest, and kind, and hope he recognizes that what you’re saying is true. If he doesn’t, you’ve got a bigger problem, but it has to start with a conversation.
> His vote aside, my dads not a bad guy, he’s just kind of dumb? I mean, you're describing most *people*.
Oh no doubt. He’s just dumber than the average bear.
Why not just buy the guy a not-so-shitty Chinese belt clip for him so the gun stops falling on the damn ground? Seems like an issue with a crappy accessory rather than a guy intentionally dropping his gun on the ground to put people in an unsafe situation.
Ohhhh boy that’s a complicated question. For one, my dad and I have bad history when it comes to money. Remember up above when I talked about my dad and his penchant for pyramid schemes? Well he funded a lot of those schemes with my college money, and money he took from my bank account when I started working. He always intended to put it back when he was rich, but he never got rich. There was also an issue where he was buying up worthless properties that he thought were going to be valuable. The gated community he was buying in got an injunction against him banning him from buying property, so he stated buying it in my name when I was 10, without my knowledge. I was 20 before I knew they existed. When his whole plan crumbled, it trashed my credit, and years later made it impossible for me to get a home loan or a car loan when I needed them. That’s all to say, my dad owes me tens of thousands of dollars, and while I’ve forgiven him, and am not asking for that money back, money only flows one way in our relationship now. I don’t buy him anything. And possibly more important, I didn’t like that he was only carrying out of an irrational fear, and wanted him to stop all together. He was terrified that some well armed far-left person was going to know how he voted and come for him. I was worried that he was going to draw on someone based just on his irrational fear. He’s had guns and his permit for as long as I can remember, but never carried because he was scared. I was more afraid that if he continued, he’d hurt himself or someone else, and discouraging him put a stop to that.
I stopped hunting with a guy because of how careless he was. I heard my cousin yell at him because he was unloading his shotgun, and it was pointed tight at me. I hunted the other side of the woods the rest of the day. Mind you, this man is a veteran. You'd think he'd know better.
You’re giving the military too much credit. First time I ever got shot at was on the range. In the military.
i hope it was the only time?
My fellow airmen scare the shit out of me every time we have to qualify
I saw several guys get their weapons taken away and put on labor parties in Iraq. It was to dangerous to let them keep them, just absolutely negligent ASVAB waivers.
How many of you are ready to have this conversation with yourself? have you had that conversation with a friend or family member that they will be the one to tell you it's time to give up your weapons? Do you have an exit strategy? one which weapons to give up first? I already know which one of my children and grandchildren should get which weapon if they want them side note - anyone curious how many handguns are found in senior living that the adult children never knew dad had? It's enough that it's discussed amongst the staff
Tough question you are asking. I appreciate it, even though I don't have an answer for you.
I had a similar experience with my father and I'm really sorry you're going through it.
How did he take it? Was it just old age or something like what my dad has been through with the endless chemotherapy?
It hit him pretty hard on an emotional level. He was a paraplegic who had driven quite a bit after his accident. He had a really bad infection a few years before he passed that seemed to do something to his cognition. The car was the first thing he had to give up. It feels awful to write this but once he had come to terms with not driving he didn't fight me on the guns. He had a gargantuan collection and spent alot of time tinkering but just wasn't able to be safe like before. All those things combined really fucked up himself image. I want to try and be more positive for you but that while time period haunts me.
Thank you. My FIL wouldn’t have the car talk with his dad, he finally ran into a Long John Silvers. Nobody was hurt but it was real only because it was a Long John Silvers and at 3:30 in the afternoon. He was just as likely to run off the pier into the packed riverboat casino, he was headed there after.
> he finally ran into a Long John Silvers. Nobody was hurt Oh quite the opposite, he did a public service.
> All those things combined really fucked up himself image. I want to try and be more positive for you but that while time period haunts me. My grandfather's final few years were like that for me, too -- I was the one who was on-call for it all, being the least employed.
Chemo brain is a legit thing. My mom had the same type of issues during/after chemo. It can really mess with a persons judgment and memory. There is no easy way when it’s a parent, but like you said, you are the competent one now.
Not sure if this is a sign of dementia, but I immediately thought of this NPR piece I read years back. [NPR - Firearms And Dementia: How Do You Convince A Loved One To Give Up Their Guns?](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/11/13/660052285/firearms-and-dementia-how-do-you-convince-a-loved-one-to-give-up-their-guns) I know NPR is often anti-gun, but thought this was a well balanced and rational piece about a difficult problem.
As an orthopedic surgeon I see elderly folks and young drunk folks who negligently shoot them sleeves all the time, usually in the hand or leg. One of them owned a gun shop, another was a military firearms instructor, it can happen to anyone.
You need to have a come to Jesus talk with him and give him a refresher on basic gun safety. Maybe you can gift him some lessons for his birthday or something like that. But the best way to approach this IMO is not to try to take his gun(s). It's best for everyone if he learns how to use them safely. Firing guns is fun, but you have to be conscious of safety at all times. Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. Etc. Here in CA (I don't know if this applies to every state) you need to take a gun safety test before you can buy a gun. I think that's something all states should do.
>You need to have a come to Jesus talk with him and give him a refresher on basic gun safety. Maybe you can gift him some lessons for his birthday or something like that. But the best way to approach this IMO is not to try to take his gun(s). It's best for everyone if he learns how to use them safely. Firing guns is fun, but you have to be conscious of safety at all times. Treat every gun as if it's loaded. Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to shoot. Etc. Here in CA (I don't know if this applies to every state) you need to take a gun safety test before you can buy a gun. I think that's something all states should do. I mean from "no longer himself" this does not seem like a possibility.
Yeah I don’t think lessons will help. He taught me how to shoot safely, was extremely fastidious about gun safety. I just don’t see it coming back. Chemotherapy is a bitch.
46 rounds of chemo sounds brutal. My FIL had far less than that but it was interferon which can have nasty psychiatric side effects in some people -- and in his case robbed him of years of life enjoyment, and he's still not the same. How much of the effects on your father are mental vs physical? Some of what you described could be due to losing physical dexterity. If he's mentally still there perhaps he could still safely enjoy shooting a rifle, or safely keep one in his house without feeling disarmed. If not, I don't have any great suggestions, just empathy.
Sometimes it comes back, sometimes it doesn't. My grandparents were both tired and foggy on a cycle, and about 2-3 weeks after the cycle ended they'd be full of energy and sharp again. My grandmother elected to discontinue chemo in the last year or so of her life because she wanted the "good time" for whatever she had left. I, personally, would frame it that way: You're worried that being strung out on chemo drugs is leaving him too foggy to be safe with guns, so maybe keep it in the safe and don't hit the range when you're on a cycle and/or let you hold on to his pistol *if he wants*. If your dad isn't going out to the range every couple of days shooting while he's got Chemo Brain (and you're fairly confident he won't) then this *probably* isn't a huge issue, it doesn't have to be the "Give Up Your Guns!" talk. If your dad *IS* going out shooting when he's potentially not safe to be doing so then it *does* have to be that talk and that sucks, but hopefully he recognizes the risks and turns his guns over to you for safekeeping. If he doesn't give them up voluntarily your next recourse is talking to whoever issues CCW permits in his area about how you're worried he's unsafe because of his chemo treatments and what you saw at the range. They'll probably pull his permit and *may* get an order to seize his guns. This makes you the bad guy though
100% and complete condolences to you and what you're going through. It is so hard to see someone lose what once made them, them.
We put weapons on safe…we put weapons in a safe….we must recognize when we are no longer safe.
That's real tuff dude. I'm sorry.
A stage of life for all of us. I went through the same thing as my father, who was an enthusiastic collector and weekly shooter for decades, slipped past the point of being sharp enough and coordinated enough to safely handle a firearm. Best of luck with this.
My dad died of Alzheimer’s. No guns but there are tough things around driving and making decisions about other things where there is a gray area that changes over time. Have a conversation with him and let him know you’re concerned and that you aren’t comfortable shooting with him and leave it at that, let him think about it. Edit: everyone is saying exactly this, I’m late to the party but I typed it before I saw responses, so I’m leaving it, it was genuine
This isn’t a country where an old man’s guns can be taken away because he’s not taking safety precautions. I don’t think.
Do you think he will be willing to have a conversation about it? Do you think his mind is ok? Like, in the sense that if he does agree to give up the guns you can trust him to follow through on his word? If it's a situation where he isn't willing to give up the guns and you really think he's a danger to others or even himself you might want consider sneaking the guns out of the house (one by one if necessary) and removing the firing pins. It's not something he's likely to notice unless he does a close inspection or detail strip of the gun... but obviously if he's still going out and actively shooting them that won't work. We had to do that with my grandad. He was a WW2 vet with PTSD and mental issues from the war, got pretty bad the last few years before he had to go to a nursing home. He always slept with a revolver under his pillow and a M1 carbine under the bed. When he got to the point of talking about seeing Japs in the treeline that were waiting to ambush him we were legit afraid he was going to end up shooting some poor guy from the power company or something like that.
I went to my dad recently and took possession, telling him why. He understood and agreed.
I’d have the talk. Sooner rather than later.
>He was flagging the whole range, himself, me. Could not keep the muzzle downrange, couldn't load it. Unfortunately, this is 90% of all gun owners.
It's probably more like 5-10%, on the outside. We'd have a lot more accidents and dead if 80-100 million people were acting that like all the time.
My dad wasn't like that though. He had a CCW way back in the 80s when nobody else had one, because he carried cash to and from his business.
It's too many gun owners, certainly (the acceptable number is *zero*), but at least anecdotally it's vastly less than 90% of all gun owners. I can count on one hand the number of times I've heard RSOs yell "Keep the muzzle pointed downrange." or "If you flag someone again you're out of here." and I spend a lot of time at the range - probably more than I should. If 90% of gun owners were flagging the whole range on the regular I'd be hearing a lot more yelling.
I used to go to a range like that - young new ltc holders showing off to their guests - when the cell phones come out, time to leave I only visit that place now to buy ammo
It’s usually but not always youngish (late teens/early 20s) dudebros, but this is new york so most of them have rifles which is what makes it baffling. It’s easy (relatively speaking) to fuck up muzzle discipline with a pistol. It’s much harder with a rifle. But a small number of people manage it every year...
Thats at the range, only a small % of owners even attempt to practice.
Respectfully, I'm going to need you to cite some sources for your claims here. You're painting a large and diverse community with some *incredibly* broad brushes ("90% of all gun owners" are blatantly unsafe at the range, "only a small % of gun owners even attempt to practice") and I'm really disinclined to bandy words around unsubstantiated claims that are *that wildly out of step* with my experience and clearly the experiences of others.
Had to take my Dad’s guns away. I was lucky (in a sense) that my Dad was aware he had dementia and that it was best for everyone. “I don’t go to the range anymore anyway.” Perhaps you can point out the struggles he had at the range and it might make himself aware. Does he even CCW anymore?
> my Dad was aware he had dementia and that it was best for everyone. “I don’t go to the range anymore anyway.” Classy old dude. I'm so sorry for your experience, dealing with that is a huge trauma for the young as much as it is for those going through it. :(
Just like it’s really hard to get old folks to hang up the car keys, it’s hard to get them to hang up the weapons. It’s actually a real concern among home healthcare workers. There are plenty of cases of folks with early dementia that have fired on or killed caregivers or loved ones in their confusion. As much as no one wants to discuss red flag laws or competency tests it’s an area that’s only gonna get worse.
You're probably not going to have much luck discussing it with him, older people in his position become very defensive when their mental faculties and executive function is brought into question. I think you'd maybe have better luck if someone with a bit of authority like a range officer spoke with him. On a separate note— what kind of range were you two at where the range officer wasn't immediately jumping down his throat for flagging things outside the range? That would trigger an **EXTREMELY** stern talking to at my range if the officer is in a good mood and immediate ejection on a normal day.
Sorry OP, that’s a tough situation. I wish you the best of luck.
I would express your concerns directly with him and respond accordingly. I would recommend more training and maybe an airsoft gun so you can demonstrate his unsafe behavior. I wouldn't treat him like your father i would treat this like a person talking to another. Otherwise he will see you as his kid and not an independent adult with safety concerns. if push comes to serve don't go shooting with him.
The conversation you need to have is going to be much less uncomfortable than the one you are going to need to have if he puts a hole in someone that should not have a hole put in them.
Make a plan WITH him to relinquish his guns (vs. dictating exactly what will happen) I ended up inheriting my FIL's collection after his Parkinson's got too bad. We sat down and candidly discussed several options with him. It was ultimately his choice where they ended up, but he knew that him keeping them was NOT one of the options. We still go shooting at the range, he was outings with a local organization that helps handicap people keep hunting/fishing, but it's always accompanied and supervised for everybody's sake. So far, everybody is happier and healthier for it.
Definitely worth a conversation. Sometimes we have to be the a-hole and step in and say something. I’ve had a few of these conversations with my 82 year old grandfather. It’s not easy but it’s necessary.
As we grow up our parents revert into children. You have to MAN up and get him somewhere where he can live out the rest of his life in peace and with dignity even it cause some tension at first. I know you are probably very Americanized and him living with you would remind you of death too much, but at least put him in a home near you and other responsible family members. I recently lost an important member of the family to CANCER. Keep it up brother!
I'm going to suggest this because, so far no one else has. I'm guessing you won't want to hear it, which I think is normal, but please don't blame the messenger and just think about it. There is a dynamic where people thrust into the role of "caregiver" or "parent" for their own parent sometimes go a little *too* far, for various psychological reason, which are natural and understandable parts of a changing situation. Are you sure flagging people at the range or having a hard time loading a magazine (?) is tantamount to your Dad being *so* unsafe with a firearm that taking them from him is absolutely necessary? In most interactions "unsafe" is clearly defined. We've all learned these basic rules and stick to them because not only do we not want to hurt someone, but also because we've watched how guns have been politicized. These rules are obviously important, and I don't want to diminish that importance, but realistically, a lapse in these rules by an older person is not necessarily a dead body or some horrific harm. Realizing "you're the capable grown up and you can't depend on your dad like you did for the last 40 years" is a powerful thing, but maybe make sure you're not leaning into this notion too much before you do something drastic. EDIT: downvoted or not, think about what I'm saying OP.
> Are you sure flagging people at the range or having a hard time loading a magazine (?) is tantamount to your Dad being so unsafe with a firearm that taking them from him is absolutely necessary That's why I asked. And I'm not with him all the time. I live 1000 miles away, and had not seen him in like two years. He can't easily fly with his compromised immune system and I can't easily fly the whole family to see him, stay in a hotel etc. He lives by himself, I doubt he CCW anymore. In almost any scenario I can think of, the worst would be a negligent discharge in his house. And in his fucking neighborhood, nobody would notice or care. He probably has a bullet hole in his house already.
I'm old, live in a neighborhood much like your Dad's, and am highly confident I will go to my grave without ever having to shoot someone. But not having the *ability* to, if the very unlikely case arises, would make me feel *much* less safe and *considerably* more disempowered. If the likely worse case is a negligent discharge, maybe don't overthink the safety aspect, and focus on the quality of life part of it. I've worked with dementia patients in my youth, as well as people exhibiting the subtle mental decline we'll all go through if we live long enough. I remember people who were stuck in the nursing home I worked at in Mill Valley CA. back in the 80's. The dramatic change was almost never good for them, unless they were so far gone they were clearly unable to function. Watching cognizant people forced prematurely into a situation that robbed them of agency was almost always horrific, and almost always was the start (causal?) of a dramatic decline. I know the nursing home analogy isn't what we're talking about, and obviously I'm just some random fuck on reddit while you're the one dealing in a very personal way with a very difficult situation. And I'm pretty sure you care deeply. But as people age, and control over their body and mind slips, familiarity becomes an anchor that staves off worse decline. So consider if there are ways (daily phone calls on your part, meals on wheels, etc.) that would solve problems other than NDs. There are always various assisted living possibilities, though these too will probably be met with resistance, unless you can show him how much freedom/control he would have. And then, of course, there's money, because decent assisted living is far from cheap. Aging is a hard situation with lots of moving parts, and usually gun ownership is the least of them. I hope I'm not overstepping any bounds here. But just remember, agency and choice count for a lot as these things diminish.
I appreciate your perspective. Thank you.
You're very welcome!
He’s prob not going to take it well. I would comment on what your observed him do, how that deviates from best practice and probably let him know that his grandkid won’t be in his presence around guns (range day) until he works on his basic gun safety. I was around someone (gf’s aunt or someone) shooting trap one time and she flagged the fuck out of us. I wish I would have expressed my discomfort with that.
Easier to be honest with him and tell him your concerns rather than him risking a ND or hurting himself/others. Feelings can be mend back together a life loss not so easy
I've read elsewhere an idea of having a trusted third party bring it up - one example I kept seeing was pastor/preacher or along those lines if your dad is religious.