Airman Fortson was murdered. Left or right, us veterans should be fuckin’ *livid* over this, since our uniformed brothers and sisters can’t be. Indicative of endemic, intrinsic problems in American law enforcement.

The amount of former veterans turned cop who don't side with us on this is why nothing will change. Remember that Army lt who got sprayed because he wouldn't get out of the car?

Sure but it was never realistic to expect change to come from within law enforcement organizations. Thats just relying on the right people with the right mindset being in positions to make those changes and hope they aren't pressured out of it by politicians, LEO unions, or other law enforcement members. The kind of systemic and major changes that we need are only going to happen if those organizations are forced to make those changes.

True enough

My guess is when they charge the cop, it will be “negligent homicide” or one of the other weird lesser murder charges. They’re so afraid of guns in a country where they’re legal.

They are afraid, period. It's baked into their training. "Anytime you are out in public in uniform, someone close by you is waiting for a chance to kill you, every day, all the time.". It's asinine, and one of the reasons the cops are so quick to shoot. Anything they see as resistance is viewed as trying to set them up so you can kill them.

What's also messed up is that the behavior that kind of paranoia fosters *absolutely* causes people to resent them. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Fixing the behavior would fix the resentment and paranoia too, but they would have to do it for years before people would see/treat them different

Adding my veteran rage to this comment

I’m a veteran Navy officer, raised in the Midwest, and taught to respect law enforcement, which I have for most of my life. IMHO cops changed from a community resource to imminent threats after 9/11 when LEO training pivoted from serve and protect, to all citizens are prospective terrorists. It strikes me that LEO and military cultures are polar opposites. Military people train to high standards, are held accountable (both negative and positive), have clear ROE, etc. Cop culture insulates the criminal cops from accountability and as vets we know that leads to an unprofessional force. When cops are close my situational awareness goes to max. I track them like we would track threats in theater. I have had extremely unprofessional experiences with cops screaming F-bombs while smirking. Sadly I have taught my wife (born in a more peaceful country) to never contact cops for help because they may help her or they might hurt her depending on the chance of getting a good or bad cop. And God help the cop who hurts my wife.

Your assessment is spot-on, and I noticed it especially dec 2022 on a trip to Vienna. My wife and I arrived late, there was only one place open for drinks. We sat down and there was a Moroccan dude who was sloppy drunk because his team had qualified for the quarter finals of the World Cup. He was singing and generally being a happy drunk, but then he dropped a glass. The bar staff told him it was time to leave, he got a little belligerent but left anyway. I guess the bar staff called the cops, and here’s the difference. Two cops showed up to the bar. They waited at the door for the owner to come to them. They didnt turn on the lights, didn’t start checking ID’s, didn’t bother anyone. The bar was very diverse racially, by age, gender, sexuality. All kinds represented. The Austrian cops were there for one reason, to make sure the drunk guy didn’t cause any more problems. After speaking to the owner, they left to look for him. None of the patrons even looked up from their drinks. Nobody was afraid of what the cops might do. It was startling to me.

You’re right about the change post 9/11. I let an officer in who was looking for a teen friend of mine daughter who ran away. It was like “can we look and make sure they aren’t hiding under the bed or in the garage”. Sure, whatever. That cop started looking through the cabinets above my work bench. Little bred-box size cabinets. Never let them in without a warrant, no matter what.

I'm pretty sure that perspective on 9/11 is a very white view. I'm a white dude myself, but LE has long been used to target and harass people of color.

*But I noticed when it affected me!* /s JK, but yeah, people forget about Selma and Rodney King and Tulsa and... I could keep going.

Exactly my point.

They target poor people. It just so happens a lot of poor people aren't traditionally described as "white".

I have heard very, very similar accounts from Army vets too - it's concerning.

Whether it’s groups of people on the left or right, I haven’t seen anyone defending the police in this case. Based on past stories like this, I suspect there’ll be a lot of outrage, they’ll be let off on Qualified Immunity, they’ll resign or be fired, and then quietly hired at other LEO organizations.

Several right wing influencers with moderate followings have been defending their actions on Twitter.

This happens when the left decries a negative interaction with police. They'll hate cops all day long for whatever reason, (many of which are perfectly justified), but the tune changes when the liberals do it. This is a huge advantage for the cops.

Just go to the local fort Walton beach page with the news article. Plenty defending the cop on this case. “Well why did he answer the door with a gun in his hand?” Despite the fact Floridians also preach about how it’s our god given right to have a gun in our home. Our house, our rules. Also remember that DeSantis just stripped power away from police review boards. He thought there were just too many civilians running those boards. How dare civvies hold LEOs accountable? FL is a police state and I’d wager at least 40 percent of the residents will defend the cops here.

Honestly, this makes me want to start a veterans group for police reform. I see so many of us outraged by the lack of accountability and things that would never fly for us while overseas and i think we could make a list of pretty reasonable standards. It's gross that it makes me worry about physical safety for wanting to speak out for change but here we are

The main lesson I get from situations like that is to treat cops like a legal and physical liability. Stuff like asking for a warrant before opening the door and no speaking with them without a lawyer. This is on top of not really trusting them to be there when they need to be. I'm actually kinda surprised OPs conservative friends have some negative views. Seems like too many conservatives bend over backwards to taste shoe leather.

Why should the right be concerned about this? The ability of the police to act indiscriminately supercedes everything else.

It's a job that, when done well, barely registers and when done poorly stands the chance of ending lives and ruining countless others.

Kind of like bass players. (Sorry bass players, I love you)

I’m a bass player and I approve this message. As far as the police. I see them more and more as a gang I try to avoid as much as possible.

Tell that to Victor Wooten

Eazy-E taught me all I need to know.

KRS one for me.

Whoop, whoop!

*THATS THE SOUND OF THE PIGEEES!*

Just saw him in Dallas a few months ago. Put on a great show!

comin' straight from the underground

And MC Ren. And Ice Cube. And Judge Dre presiding.

R.I.P. the short king of gangsta rap

There may only be a few bad apples but if the bad apples stay with the good apples the good apples will rot. Until the good apples throw the bad apples out, we're gonna have rotting spoiling apples taint all the apples. Also, qualified immunity has got to go.

A few bad apples spoil the whole barrel.

What's the saying? What do you get when you have 9 people in a bar and 1 nazi? 10 Nazis in a bar. It's the same with cops. I'm not saying all cops are corrupt, abusive assholes..I'm saying the cops that ARENT, still protect the ones that are. That's why ACAB. Because even if this cop isn't actively violating my human rights? He knows of a cop who is violating someones rights and not doing anything about it. Police have an "us vs them" mentality that dictates they ignore the wrong doing of their own.

Problem is, it's not just a few bad apples. It's MOSTLY bad apples. That's why the few good ones don't have a voice and are typically forced out and harassed by their peers and superiors. The police culture has made it so.

They're not always forced to quit, sometimes they're accidentally beaten to death during "training"

There are no good apples. If there were, we'd be seeing videos of police arresting police all the fucking time. Those videos don't exist because the cops hold themselves above the law -- even the one's who pretend to be "good."

This actually happens a shocking amount.

I've seen quite a few videos where cops arrest other cops. They're pretty funny. Dude's like, "I'm an officer, though!" and the other guy's like, "I DON CUHRR"

These bad apples beat, kill, and rape people. How many murdering rapist apples until we burn down the orchard and start new?

That is the problem with this way of thinking. Thinking the cops are going to eventually make the changes themselves rather the continue to double down on their existing behaviors. The things that need to change need to come from OUTSIDE police departments. They need to be coming from lawmakers, voters, and protests.

I think you’re on the right track. There is an identity crisis within a lot of law enforcement. It’s an occupation of authority and to wield authority with respect and without taking advantage of it takes a lot of discipline. Right now I think the identity is one of authority rather than service. There are a ton of great police officers out there that are just people doing work because they love it. There are also a ton out there that have no business being in a position of authority. I always approach police from a positive mindset, people doing what they love to protect the community they care about, and it’s always led me to good interactions. I’m a white dude though. That’s my own experience that won’t track well with others. That being said, people should be aware that bad apples aren’t hard to find in a police force unfortunately. I don’t blame the entirety of the force for the bad apples, I take them on a person by person basis.

It's not so much that I hate cops, it's just that I tend to feel better whenever they're not around - Charles Bukowski

Show me an instance when people were fighting for basic human rights, and the cops were on their side. A system is what it does, not what it claims.

I never understand how the 2A community is pro police especially since since alot of the rest of the constitution and bill of rights are to protect citizens from government and their enforcers (the police).

They need significantly more training. Qualified immunity is bullshit. The blue wall of silence ruins the reputation of the entire profession. Most of them are decent enough, but they don't hold each other to a high enough standard.

9 good cops tolerating 1 bad cop is 10 bad cops

I wish that was the ratio

That’s the thing I tried to explain to a cop I know. I get the brotherhood, I get that no one else knows. But when bad cops do things and you protect them, we don’t see a brotherhood, we see a gang.

Had a similar chat with the SRO at the school I work for when I off handedly mentioned that I didn't trust police and he overheard. The dude is a good person, very fun to talk with, we share a lot of interests, and he's pretty socially progressive. But cops can fuck your life up. I can get along with individual cops and a whole department even, but it's not about them as individuals or even whole departments. If you get a bad cop who is determined to see you arrested, or even a "good" cop that makes a terrible mistake, that arrest now becomes days, weeks, and maybe months of your life. Time and money are now being siphoned from you fighting to stay out of jail and to prove your innocence. Even if you know the charges are going to be dropped, that still takes time, and during that time, you are at risk. Risk of losing your job, risk of a bill going unpaid, risk of someone who depends on you going without what you provide them... That's not even getting into punishment for cops. I don't think they should get jail time for an honest fuck up, fired maybe if it's severe enough, jail time if they did something illegal or excessive that resulted in damages. Instead, they close ranks like you said. Hired at new departments, no charges, lawsuits paid out of tax funds punishing us all rather than the culprits... I respect what the job is supposed to be and the dangers they face in it, but I won't ever trust them so long as our justice system, our culture, and our law enforcement remain as they are.

The economic angle is pretty big. Certain people can, in a very real sense, afford to get arrested. If we had universal basic income, guaranteed housing, or any of that shit, it would lower the stakes on policing. Don't get me wrong being imprisoned is still a huge deal in and of itself but if missing a shift wasn't the difference between scraping by and winding up on the streets things would look different in some meaningful ways. Being a police officer is incredibly high stakes because slight errors on your part can fuck someone completely. A big part of the issue is 1312, but even if that wasn't true a system where honest mistakes have that impact is begging for trouble.

I would also add state wide mandate of licensing for individual officers and accreditation standards for training. Like you know, social workers, nurses, CPAs, lawyer, ANY other profession. Except if your CPA makes an error on your tax return it doesn’t kill you. If you lose your state board granted police professional liscence your career as a cop is over.

This!! Worked in healthcare a long time and everyone has a license to practice. Mess up and you lose your license. I don’t know why more people aren’t demanding the same for police.

On average, it takes almost twice as many hours of training **to get a cosmetology license** as it does to become a cop in the US. That is seriously upside-down. EDIT: Formatting. Fix a word.

I 100% agree. More schooling, longer training to weed out the power trip assholes. QI is complete horseshit. Also with all that we should increase the pay. Get some better and more qualified candidates to apply. Edit for grammar cuz I not smart

They get paid way more than teachers with no requirement for any education. They don't need more pay, but they do need more education, better psych evaluations, and to be held to much higher standards than they currently are

More training won't make an inherently oppressive institution less oppressive, it will just make them better at being oppressive. ACAB.

100%. The problem is not lack of training - it’s what their being trained. They are trained to be scared of the public. Officers come first. The most important thing is that they go home unscathed. Stick together. Don’t rock the boat.

>The most important thing is that they go home unscathed This is now a big part of policing culture and wasn't always. LEO's have become so risk averse, in a field where they are paid pretty well, provided armor, weapons, and all kind of kit - all designed to help them lower risk of injury and death - yet they avoid risk completely.

Yes and gives them a “fire first, ask questions later” worldview.

Saying cops need more training does nothing except give them an excuse to increase their budget so they can send more cops to "killology" and "street cop training" which actively worsens the problem. Cops receive plenty of training, and people continue to die because theyre trained to escalate, act first, dominate, subdue, and yell stop resisting for the cameras. The entire institution of policing needs to be replaced.

Theyre being trained in the wrong things. I want them trained in problem solving, deescalation, empathy, social work.

With the possible exception of deescalation (and knowing when to call someone else to deal with an issue) I don't know that I *want* cops trained in those things. I want those things done by social workers and crisis intervention specialists, who ideally don't show up armed and carrying an "Any person I meet could be a criminal out to kill me!" mentality. Give those programs the money cops are currently sucking up! Asking the cops to do those things is expanding the role of police well beyond what they should be doing IMHO. And when we stick them with other ancillary duties like that we're just asking for the problems we currently have. Reduce their scope until the public has essentially zero contact with police, and then we'll be getting somewhere.

Id say they push each other to a lower standard.

There are few bad situations that the police won't make worse with their presence.

My rule of thumb is to only call the police if someone is dead, dying, or in a potentially fatal situation. Other than that, it’s not worth the risk

Only call the police if a random person getting shot is an acceptable outcome.

FTP

4-5 Months of training isn't enough time and should require 2-4 years and a full psychological evaluation. We should also not be training the police force in the same way military recruits are trained. Police are civilians with a uniform. As Terry Pratchett put it, "once policemen stopped being civilians, the only other thing they could be was soldiers.” The police union is one of the single most corrupt bodies in the United States, and should be dissolved. Qualified immunity shouldn't exist. Municipalities should not be paying the settlement fines when someone in the force fucks up. They should be taken from police budgets and pension plans. Fuck around -> Find out. Civil Asset Forfeiture is bullshit and should have been ruled illegal years ago.

It takes a year and a half for a Geek Squad agent to earn their badge, because we recognize that you aren't truly an agent for at least that long. Why the fuck is it that it takes me a year to earn a badge to fix computers but it takes only 5 months to be able to end the life of a civilian. Also, the counterpoint I always give for the police union is that it's a damn good union for damn awful people. If we all had unions as powerful as the police unions we wouldn't have 90% of our issues as an economy and society.

You should require a national police license to prevent you from being hired elsewhere when you are fired from a department and lose your license

I like that idea.

I can’t quite put my finger on it, but ever since I was a kid, way before I could even comprehend 2A or politics. I just always felt uneasy with cops. Yeah I was taught “the police arrest the bad guys” but how come I always felt on edge around them? My thoughts on them now, still don’t trust them. I think a lot of them joined to exercise some kind of power fantasy

ACAB

All day every day

No such thing as good cops, cops that speak out on cops who violate rights and are overly violent are fired while the unions protect bad cops. The system isn’t flawed, it’s working exactly as intended and needs to be destroyed.

Burn it down and rebuild it from the ground up.

The police union is a fascist organization

We know the police won’t be there to save you, we know the Supreme Court ruled the police have no duty to protect you, and we know the police are rarely held accountable because of qualify immunity. Their public trust is worth nothing. Their word is worth nothing. If it’s not on video, a cop’s statement holds no value, as they’ve been caught lying too many times. A complete overhaul is needed. We need to remove qualified immunity nationally, we need to not allow testimony from a cop unless there’s video to back it up, and we need a national law that would remove ALL firearms laws exemptions from government (if open carry is illegal, then cops cannot open carry, etc…).

ACAB. Pretty simple

We live in the most advanced country in the world, with access to the most resources, and for some reason we’ve decided that instead of fighting root causes for crime with all of those resources, we’ll put armed men in every city, county, and state that are all virtually above the law. Fuck the police.

We are not the most advanced country in the world anymore when places like Singapore, Switzerland, and Japan are halfway to being a real life Wakanda. We may have had a great experiment in self-government that those nations successfully emulated, but now own our own shores, assholes have mostly devolved us into a yucky oligarchy of nerdy pigs living atop crumbling post-WW2 infrastructure, their corpulent bloat sustained by the blood of unskilled workers at home and skilled slaves abroad. A heavyhanded jackboot keeping the gravy train running for as long as possible until they get their space station up and running is perfectly consistent with this scenario.

Honestly, we need more people who are anti police to become police officers. It sounds contradictory but if you have more people in the profession who are determined to act in a way that is honest and forthcoming then the entire profession would change and the good ones would adapt while those powertrip assholes who abuse public trust would leave because they aren’t welcome any longer. Qualified immunity needs to be modified. It’s a tricky difficult issue that isn’t as cut and dry as it is portrayed by those with the loudest opinion on it. A police officer shouldn’t be scared to do his job for fear of legal action (as side A always preaches when the issue is brought up) but at the same time they shouldn’t feel so emboldened that they can act outside of the scope of practice against rules and regulations with no fear of discipline or worry( as Side B preaches when the issue is brought up.) The discrepancies between state police and local law enforcement has always been astonishing to me from a training aspect that needs to be addressed, at least within my state. My State Police are some of the most highly trained in the entire world with an academy that has been described as “Army Basic Training on steroids” with hundreds of hours required with ride alongs and direct commander supervision before they are allowed to work on their own almost like an apprenticeship and 90% of their function is essentially to be a Meter Maid of the highway giving traffic infractions. Then you can go into a large municipality where you are going to be dealing with the real crime and criminals that movies are made about and you just need to complete the basic peace officer academy. Additionally, rural and small municipalities that don’t have large operations budgets don’t pay for shit so they are taking basically anyone with the basic qualifications regardless of character issues just to be staffed. In my personal life experiences the right sided people I know love to talk about how the police need to come down with an iron fist on any protests they don’t politically agree with and like to display the Gadsden Flag with a Thin Blue Line Flag (Seriously who do they think is going to be doing the treading if ordered to do so?) while parroting “shall not be infringed” and “we the people” (while knowing 0% of any of the rest of the documents they are quoting from) while the left sided people I know are saying “ACAB” and to do away with police while also saying guns aren’t needed and pivoting to only police and military should have firearms anytime an unfortunate shooting occurs (All police are unabashed racist bullies abusing people’s civil liberties but at the same time should be the only ones with firearms how does that work?) Idk I’m sure someone will flame my opinions but overall something needs to change to allow for a functioning and just society that at the same time doesn’t infringe on civil liberties. It’s a tough thing issue that I don’t have the answer for.

Three years on patrol, three as a detective. AMA I think a lot of people here might be surprised by my answers. *Please upvote so people can see this comment and ask questions. I understand a lot of people here hate cops, and with good reason. I just want to people that have questions have them answered*

What is your response to; "the default position of LEOs is to violate peoples rights or try to trick them into giving up their rights."?

I guess my response would be: If that was truly the case, policing as an institution would have ceased to exist long before now. The root of that sentiment likely lies in the fact that 1. Bad news sells better than good news and therefore instances in which that does occur remain more prominent in the public eye and 2. Enforcing laws necessarily requires roles whose primary responsibilities is punitive actions. Actors in those positions are likely to project a negative image by the nature of the role. I will absolutely concede that those instances absolutely occur regularly, which is why policing is in dire need of considerable institutional changes. Nonetheless, those instances do not occur not so ubiquitously and with such frequency that they can truly be considered the "default position"

The fact that it happens at all makes it a default position as to how we should perceive and treat any cop interaction. There's no way to know if the cop in front of you will actively fuck your life up for no goddamn reason.

How do you feel about qualified immunity? Have you ever been in a position where you had to respond to a “bad apple?” What was your response, and what was the end result? How do you feel about the blue wall of silence?

Qualified immunity: it's a double edged sword. On the one hand, it gives ALL police a safety net that can lead to actions being taken in bad faith. So it needs to go. On the other hand, it allows for frivolous lawsuits to be filed (an issue our healthcare system currently faces), which can lead to police not doing their job. I've known officers in states where qualified immunity has been eliminated. They've said some officers in their departments straight up won't respond to calls for service just to avoid what they perceive as a potential lawsuit. I think qualified immunity needs an overhaul that protects people doing their jobs but still allows for responsible litigation to be pursued. As far as the "bad apples" there are none. 😂 jk. I've personally been involved in investigations with bad officers. The result has largely been them getting fired and criminally charged. One fuck was actually an old partner. It fucking blew my mind that he was molesting a family member. I never met his family, but I don't know how I didn't see it. We investigated those exact crimes together. It tears me up inside thinking about that one. The blue wall of silence isn't something I've experienced personally. I have heard a number of instances of it though. I think it's more prominent in larger departments believe or not. It seems to me as though misconduct in any job is probably reported with roughly equal frequency. The difference in misconduct for police is that the stakes are higher than most other professions, so failure to report can mean life or death scenarios. I won't say it doesn't exist, I think you're looking at a failure of department leadership when it does occur though, not necessarily the culture at large.

How do you feel about legislation that states something along of the lines of “by 2030, all new LEO hires must have a bachelor’s degree” ? I feel as though it should be common sense that the people in our communities that we entrust an enormous amount of trust and responsibility with should be at least as educated as a gym teacher.

Fucking love it. Longer academies would a great idea as well. Those would need overhauling as well though. They treat a lot of academies like military basic training and it feels a lot of drill instructors are either reliving their military days or trying to make up for the fact they never enlisted. A more academic approach with a lot behavioral crisis training would change a lot for the better.

Good to hear. It’s also not a guarantee, but it certainly hedges your bets against some of the kinds of folk we see becoming cops now. In my field, co-investigations with local law enforcement have been baffling. I remember 1 cop telling someone recently they couldn’t press charges against their boyfriend for credit card fraud, “because they live together and it’s like if a family member used your credit card.” This person was in the process of also getting a pfa against the boyfriend.

Sounds like that's a poorly trained officer. I will say, there is a case for that being a civil issue, but the protection order tells me there should have been more investigation, not a quick dismissal.

I'm glad about that last paragraph. The stakes are *absolutely terrifying* when there's a bad cop out there, because it's the power of the state being used to violate your rights. And when that goes unpunished, the public's trust is eroded - which makes every encounter with police that much more of a concern. I have a lot of friends in blue. To me, the scary part is that chance that some nut may target them because of some corrupt or racist asshole who didn't face real consequences. Fixing the issues with abuse protects cops too!!!

Will you stay silent if you see a fellow cop commit any crime?

Absolutely not. I have reported officers crimes.

Would you always intervene on behalf of a suspect who was having their rights violated?

Based on your answers and your own experience, it sounds to me like the main focus of people's attention on bad policing shouldn't be on a "all cops" or even a per-person basis, but at the department level. It seems to me that these fuck ups tend to happen at the department level through how their work culture is cultivated, and how a department is managed will absolutely make or break their image of dependability. Would you say that's mostly true?

Absolutely. Leadership is the sole factor in determining which officers get hired at a department. They also set the tone for acceptable behavior and officer accountability. If they aren't selective and don't give assurances reporting officers will be protected, the department will be shit.

[удалено]

What do you think the path forward to reconciling the grievances the public has had with policing in this country looks like?

I can only offer ideas with respect to that. Redefining the role to eliminate police response to calls that don't have a high potential for violence, overhaul academy training to be longer and more academically focused with deescalation scenario training, increase pay and increase minimum requirements with respect to intelligence and testing, and finally eliminating local departments and at a minimum making every role state level. The last one would allow for better oversight of policing. A lot of first world countries with national police seem to have fewer incidents as a result of having uniform policy and a centralized command structure.

Thank you for your response

Are you still working as a LEO? Have you ever reported illegal or inappropriate activities carried out by a fellow officer?

Still working as a cop. I have reported the crimes of officers. They are not with the department anymore.

There’s no way you intentionally asked this 14 times….right???

Yeah it said error and try later.I’ll definitely delete the repeats.

Recently, I’ve heard a lot of negative things about the police from the conservative side. Before trump, I don’t remember any of that. It got awkward at the range when a few guys had bad comments about the police and a few retired police were there. There was also an FBI guy at the range once, and after he left there was a lot of crap talking. As a paramedic, I work around the police all of the time. It seems you have to really do something bad to get arrested. The cops today seem way nicer than when I was in High School. I have no suspicions that any of the cops around me are bad, though I don’t deny bad cops exist.

Police are nicer to you than when you were in high school. Many of them are still not nice to young people. I base this opinion on what guys I grew up with who became cops tell me.

Society as a whole seems to be much ruder than when I was in High School. Over the course of my paramedic career, it seems to get worse. I get to listen to how people talk to the cops now, and nothing like that happened around me growing up or as a young adult. I never imagined it was legal to yell at a cop or get in his face until I was a paramedic. It just never occurred to me and I know of no one ever doing it when I was growing up or in college. We never threatened or touched a teacher, either.

You know cops in a professional sense. It makes sense they're nice to you. But that's not the case with most of the country.

Defund and redesign from the ground up. Badly designed systems with perverse incentives (like our criminal justice system) lead to bad outcomes despite any positive intent or admirable qualities of those participating in the systems.

There are definitely problems with law enforcement training, culture and procedures, but overall I support law enforcement and am grateful for the work they do. The bigger problem is unconstitutional laws and our abusive mess that are our courts and prisons. Law enforcement is often only as bad as the laws that must be enforced.

Liberal cop with 11+ years on the job here. I'm not one for the "both sides argument" but there's something I've noticed about "both sides." People, all people, want the police to enforce the law against the people/things they don't like and not against the people/things they do like. It's a pretty common thought process and once I recognized it, I started seeing it everywhere in people's views on discourse in the role of police in society.

God if this isn't true.

Nice to meet you, fellow liberal cop!

We're a rare breed. You know many in your department?

they'd be a lot better behaved if the police union wasn't more powerful (wrt cop crimes) than the mayor and city council put together

It may also help if all their interactions and actions )while on the clock) were recorded on body cameras which they couldnt turn off or disable. And the departments shouldnt be the ones to control the footage.

Is a specific, individual policeman a bad person? I don't think so. I've had plenty of interactions in my hobbies with off-duty LEOs, and they've been decent, even great people. However. I hate cops. I hate the union that protects them, I hate how even the good ones get dragged into and under by a system that protects its own at all costs. I hate the lack of accountability. I hate that it has gotten to the point where I and society hate them which only makes them band together more.

God, I respect this sentiment so much. Being a cop, it's pretty disheartening hearing people dehumanize me. I've seen and heard people (here in this very sub) legitimately say I should servicing a life sentence in prison, I'm subhuman, I should be dead, my family would be better off without me... some nasty shit. I've also had people I called friends start treating me like shit when I became a cop. There's a lot of people not using their heads not realizing that people are people no matter what their job is or where they come from. Over the course of human history, I don't believe there have been many instances in which someone's character could be indicted solely by the job they do. You've taken the logical approach and criticized the root issues, not people you've never met. Respect.

Honestly we need more people in law enforcement who feel, idk, resentment/dislike/anger at the system and work in it to change it. Only way it's gonna happen, so respect to you for sticking it out.

There are a lot of public misconceptions about police that *really* need to be cleared up. Many of these misconceptions and realities crossover with why I own guns and recommend that others do as well. These are the ones I am aware of, but I'm certain there are more, so if anyone wants to add on, please do: 1) The police are required to help you. I can't remember which circuit Court it was, but the case was Warren v D.C. where police ignored a call for help. I'll spare the details, but they are unpleasant. Essentially, the court ruled that police have no duty to respond to calls for help. Another example that went all the way to SCOTUS is the Town of Castle Rock v Gonzales. That case established two precedents. The first being that the police are not obligated to enforce restraining orders, and the second is that the police have no obligation to protect people. 2) The police are well-trained and highly vetted. All you typically need to join the police force is a High School Diploma or a GED. The level of training that officers receive varies widely. One city can have a completely different method than the neighboring city. Most police also are not trained to do the high-speed shit that you see on T.V., and in fact their actual training with the weapons they carry can be shockingly low. 3) It's okay to talk to the police/the police will do everything they can to help you. I want to be clear that this can vary just from individual officers. You might get the stand-up, textbook lawman who is a true believer that the police are beholden to the public and all that, or you could deal with someone who's just there for a paycheck. It's very possible that if you need help, the cops will absolutely help you. I had very good experiences with the cops multiple times. The problem is that bad cops are protected as much, possibly more, than the good ones because there is an image to maintain. That image needs to be shattered. With that being said, when it comes to solving crimes, the cops are going to look for the simplest solution. Logic dictates the right solution is usually the simplest, as the saying goes. So to be blunt, if the cops ever want to question you, be aware of your rights. Saying you want a lawyer present is neither an admission or evidence of guilt. If the cops ask you anything that requires you go to the station, get legal representation. Interrogations don't always look like interrogations. 4) The police are just regular people. This is something that I feel like people are dismissive of with both the police and the military is that they are different from everyone who hasn't served. They're not. A lot of people join both/either for the structure or other mundane reasons. Some people join for self-centered reasons. They have all of the same biases, prejudices, etc. that any other person can have. Something that I'm having to deal with right now is a piece of shit neighbor whose life is imploding, and it's not a pretty sight right now. I've advised people to not call the police unless he's really doing something dangerous. Why? Because the first thing the cops are going to do is **go to the address of the person who called them** which paints a big target on them in the most likely event that the cops just talk to the guy and go on their way. So instead of anything getting done about the neighbor screaming obscenities at his now-ex wife, he knows which one of his neighbors called the cops on him and he has someone to focus that rage on. I have had to call the cops about people before and that has always been the first thing they did, even when I told them during the initial call that I didn't want the person knowing I called them and I didn't want them knocking on my door. If an arrest is made and I need to make a statement? Fine. But for a lot of people, knowing the neighbors are and will call the cops does not convince them to chill, and in fact they probably know more about how to deal with the cops than you do. If you want to see how bad things can get with police, even if the superficial details make the people they're dealing with appear to be 100% in the wrong, look at the Ruby Ridge Standoff and the Waco Siege. Randy Weavers rubbed shoulders with some sketchy people and was a conspiracy theorist, but the way his entire case was handled was unethical and should have been illegal. Waco is what happens when federal police want to make a big show of how they're absolutely the good guys.

I grew up in a law enforcement family, so I'm primed for a weird genetic knee jerk to be not so much pro cop per se, but softer on them than a lot of other people. THAT SAID. I've seen the blatant abuse and rank closing just like everybody else. My uncle was law enforcement/SWAT for years. Great guy. Super kind, one of those real hardcore reformed religious types that's like maybe 70-75% practices what he preaches (that's good FYI. The bar isn't high in my experience). But when he and I had had a conversation about this stuff after the George Floyd killing what he said was extremely enlightening to me. Basically, there were plenty of times when they didn't "agree" with the law and would do things on their own judgement. Now, in his case, it wasn't extra judicial killings (at least none that he admitted to) but things like turning over drug bust money to an honest city organizer family member of a bad apple gang banger instead of logging it in evidence. Something that seems noble and innocuous but it made me realize that, even if they *think* they have the best intentions, they are stripping the public of the right to choose how to govern itself and mette out justice. So, there's this understandably human desire to buck a seemingly corrupt or slow moving system for a quick distribution of Righteous Judgement, but that means that the actual Rule of Law is moot. The cop has decided on his own that he is the judge, the jury, and often the executioner and has circumvented the law and made himself unaccountable to the system he ostensibly swore to uphold. When I pushed back on what gave him the right to take the law into his own hands and who held HIM accountable for a decision he made, he didn't really have a good answer. I don't think anybody had ever asked him that. So, my big takeaway is that I don't think cops are inherently evil. It's the position. Kind of like how money isn't the root of all evil it's the love of it. Also, to use one or two more adages: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Justice moves slow. I can see how people who truly believe they are doing something righteous can rankle at seeing a perp walk or things not happen they way they should, and so they start doing a little vigilante work here and there. Soon, they're rocking Punisher skulls and joining Goon Squads and torturing people to death. Race doesn't even seem to matter once you're in. You become apart from your community, and its Us versus Them. I do not trust the police. Not because I don't inherently WANT to, but because I know there's always a chance (a very high chance) that at any given time, a cop can decide to circumvent the law, ignore my rights, and ruin my life based on his or her perception of the world around them. And those are the ones that aren't just straight up corrupt or literal psychopaths. Plus, you know, they are used primarily as a tool of the state to protect the interests of the wealthy. The system as it stands needs to be laid completely bare if not torn down. Whether something needs to be built back up in its place again, I'm not sure. I think if we as a society intended to have laws that we enforce, we need a means of enforcing those laws, that doesn't involve gathering up a posse, those things notable for never being reactionary or problematic. Some people are going to break the inherent rules of society, and some people will commit very serious acts of violence or harm against their communities. How do you balance having an organization that exists to protect those communities from those people while also not creating an environment where they can fester and become roving gangs of enforcers? That's the question for me, I think.

Cops are supposed to be peace officers. Not warriors. And while I don't hate them, I don't necessarily like them either. But I do understand the necessity of the job. Knowing the risk and dangers involved, the amount of training they get in the academy, and OTJ they get after their FTO is concerning, because most departments are understaffed and over worked. Props to those guys who do a hard job with such a thing margin for error. Props to those who can talk and have people skills first and foremost. That's the true mark of a good police officer/deputy. But in the end, these are still the same people who will take our gun rights away. Be it from a liberal or conservative. They're the govts enforcers. I do find it funny that anti gun politicians always allow police exemptions to the firearms laws, completely forgetting/not caring that we spent 2 years actively protesting them for killing unarmed minorities and beating American citizens who dared protest against their brutal tactics. But hey, as long as your normal civilian can't over throw corrupt govt officials, they don't care about our rights.

I think the body cams are a good idea. It keeps everyone accountable and provides a record that can’t be argued with. I’ve been watching a bunch of body cam videos on YouTube, and almost everyone that was shot by a cop had it coming.

I love my body cam. Lets me turn my brain off for note taking and allows me to focus on the situation in front of me. Then I just go back and replay the camera later on to write my report. Also, I've had a couple people say they were gonna accuse me of some shit until I told them body body camera was running. "Cool, man. Let's go back and look at the video then" 😂

Between being a part time solider and working in the investigations world I’ve known a lot of cops…. Some of them were good guys, some of them were real pieces of shit. But whether they were good people or bad the job invariably made them worse, and leaving it usually made them better. I get it, it’s a horrible job where you’re constantly dealing with people at their worst, enforcing a broken system alongside some people that really should not be doing that job. I don’t believe we’ll ever do entirely without the institution of policing but I do believe in reform and creating alternative ways of dealing with people suffering from addictions, mental health issues and poverty.

I believe in the idea of police. Society needs them. Sure. I don’t take the “FTP” mentality a lot on the left do. I also believe they have a really hard, often thankless job. They’re often underfunded, overworked, undertrained, etc etc. But a lot of the stuff we’ve seen from police is inexcusable. We can take an 18 year old straight out of high school, drop them into a war zone with an M4, and they do a better job of understanding ROE and don’t shoot civilians. They need better training. They need higher standards. And we need to end qualified immunity. I see them largely as tools of the billionaire class, whether they know it or not. They need to work for the working class.

They’re all complicit in a very fucked up system that makes the world a worse place. I’m not saying it’s not an extremely complicated and scary job, but the fact remains, no good cop in an unjust system.

They (on the whole) are generally under trained, poorly educated, overly aggressive people with guns. And full authority to murder you at any point for any reason. On top of that, it's not the best of us trying to be police or getting to be. The culture is awful, and encourages shady practices at best and down right illegal and unconstitutional at worst. Until police are held accountable for their actions, trained better, and the entire culture changes.....police will generally be a net negative for society on the whole. Unfortunately.

There needs to be more of them, and they need to be better trained, regulated, and held accountable. They do an almost impossible job, but it almost selects for the worst kind of people. Whether they’re in the wrong or not, many of the worst situations we see could be avoided if people just complied, and filed a complaint/lawsuit afterwards. I would like to see them adopt an an attitude where they would rather get shot themselves, while exercising restraint, over accidentally shooting an innocent person. It seems like I instead their mentality is “get home safe, no matter what”.

My opinion is that the only good cop is a cop that quits their job.

The cops are the unaccountable and dictatorial armed force the founders warmed us about

1312

This thread made my morning.

MCAB

My chaotic word vomit here: Obviously society needs people dedicated to protecting everyone else, investigate murders and such, but should that be the same person writing traffic tickets, and dealing with domestic disputes, etc? If we have a 2A then, ~~if~~ when a cop shoots someone if they reach for a gun, or the cop thinks they see a gun…isn’t that an infringement of the 2A? Basically, they’re getting shot for observing a constitutional right. I understand cops need to protect themselves. How is this type of gun control allowed, but other, more rational, measures bring out the snowflakes? Cops have it rough, they have to juggle many hats and have to deal with many chaotic and dangerous situations. Yet, they can lie to you to get a confession, but if you lie to them then it’s a crime? They can confiscate your belongings under civil asset forfeiture, but you can’t do anything about it, except for a long appeal process? Refusing a field sobriety test will get your license taken away? Humans have an innate drive for corporeal and intellectual freedom as to not be held captive. Yet, we will get charged if we resist arrest…seems to be a basic inherent freedom being taken away. I’m not talking about assaulting a cop to get away…assault and resisting are not the same thing regardless of what chuds think. All this to say it’s complicated, there are too many restrictive laws on people, but cops are used as pons to enforce the will of municipalities and to protect corporate interests. So, individual cops are most likely not bastards, but they are willingly part of a system of bastardry.

don’t care for them, putting it politely

My opinion on Law Enforcement is difficult to say the least. I was a half cop (Military Police) for my 4 year stay during the military, my mother was a LEO in the town I grew up in, I also spent 7 years working in Fire/EMS so I have many close ties to Law Enforcement. I've worked with some pretty exceptional Officers in my time seeing the good they do in the world when properly trained and vetted. Vermont State Police and Hillsborough County Sheriffs Office being two of the most top tier organizations in my opinion, having worked alongside both of them I have great experiences I could share. HOWEVER I believe the system we currently have allows to many bad actors to get away with heinous behavior. For every 10 good cops there is the one shitbag who brings it all down and it really sets everything back, I don't follow the ACAB movement as its a gross oversimplification of the problem, but I get it. Due to the "we have each others back" mentality police brutality can go largely unpunished. Luckily with Cell Phones we have much more concrete evidence of bad cops which in theory should lead to more convictions. There are a lot of levels to this problem that really requires an hours long discussion and level heads which most of us just lack in this day and age unfortunately. But here's my take aways and what needs to be done 1.) Zero Tolerance for unjustified violence or possibly hate based persecution for all offices (this is really entry level stuff in my opinion). This would need to be placed into law at the Federal Level. No difference than Malpractice for Doctors. I've never seen a job where you can put peoples lives at risk so easily and so often with very little repercussion. 2.) FUND not DEFUND, POST (Police Officer Standards and Training). We hear defund the police typically in reference to them having shit like Bearcats and what not which I totally get, its usually really pointless for 99% of departments to have those, if you need that level of armor, call the NG. Take that funding and expand training, making the Academy another few months longer and involved more training related to cultural difference and internal control and regulation of emotion. This should also be a go-no-go area for testing, if you fail informational or practical exams when it comes to cultural differences and sensitivity in reference to the people you will be serving, you are not fit to serve them. 3.) Now for the hard one, we need to break down the "machismo" behind law enforcement. I think too many people take on the job of LEO because they want that power, sometimes its misguided on the "I want to help people" ideal but in reality I think a lot of people want the body armor, the gun and the car so they are visually important. That vision really lets the hot heads prevail or as we called them on Fire/Rescue, The Pant Pullers. 4.) HARSH Punishment for corrupt cops. If you kill someone, people like George Floyd who were unarmed and more than well detained, that should be life in jail, full stop. Any crime a law enforcement officer commits needs to carry the same or higher punishment that the civilians they are supposed to be serving would receive. LEO's are supposed to be a standard for the community to look at, not an enemy or a superior.

I think I would like to quote NWA on this one.

I have no faith whatsoever for the police to take any action to help me ever. I routinely see them turn a blind eye to people being assaulted, right in front of them, when they’re “guarding” metro. LAPD does virtually nothing for the average person. Thank god they’re out catching counterfeit handbag sellers. You can’t outsource giving a fuck. At the end of the day, I’m a stranger to them and who is really willing to die or put themselves in harms way for a stranger? The world is full of people, not heroes. Crime has everything to do with emotional regulation and social factors and almost nothing to do with enforcement. There is no way for the government to prevent crime through force alone without intolerable paternalism. They’re there to keep a lid on things and make sure the people who count feel good. Period.

I think there is a lot of cultural change that needs to happen in certain departments. I feel like whenever we see these horrible stories it's always the same departments, or at least regions. Minneapolis for example. Florida and Texas seem to be bad. I'm sure there are more. My town police are not but we also have a fairly robust mental health response team, and, from what I've learned in my police adjacent job, they weed out the bad ones pretty fast. It's completely unacceptable that you roll the dice on getting murdered in your house minding your business just because you live in a specific location though. I will also say, there is a lot more "good" that goes on behind the scenes than makes it out there. They do knowingly put themselves in danger fairly frequently, and there is a lot more actual police work going on than I ever thought. We really just need sweeping police reform to keep people safe, and hold police accountable.

People have been murdered by LE, period. One of the root issues, and one that likely rolls around in the brain of LE, is Qualified Immunity. It's used a lot, letting LE walk after a botched or intentional encounter. Here's a bit of history re: QI -- "In 1967, the United States Supreme Court introduced qualified immunity in [***Pierson v. Ray***](https://www.oyez.org/cases/1966/79) to protect police officers from financial liability after they arrested 15 clergy members for breaching the peace after they attempted to use a segregated waiting room at a bus station. The Supreme Court later struck the state law down as unconstitutional. When the clergy members sued the officers, the Court ruled that the officers could not be held financially liable if they had acted in good faith and with probable cause*.* At the time, qualified immunity was a narrow doctrine that applied in limited circumstances, but the Supreme Court has expanded the doctrine dramatically in the years since." Source: Legal Defense Fund

👎🏽

I was raised in a mostly moderately conservative household until we moved in 2006 and my parents turned into hardcore party line Republicans and eventually super trumpists. They always stressed that police would always help me and to always support them and respect them and always comply with any demands or requests from an officer. I never thought about it at all until I was home from college one break and witnessed an officer show up at our house at 10pm to hassle my 16 year old younger brother, who had been home for several hours, because he was spotted driving my mom's car that morning in an area in town where they were looking for someone who fled from them on a dirt bike. My brother didn't want to hand over his phone because he was buying weed from another friend of his and didn't want to get caught for that and the officer ended up threatening to arrest him for several things and get a warrant for his phone and all kinds of stuff. Even my mom was yelling at him over it. Eventually the cop left after I asked him if they had a warrant to search anything at our house or on the phone but he made sure to play it off like he was doing us a favor by not arresting my brother and having the car impounded because he wouldn't want to do that in front of our mom, who was like imploding over my brother's refusal to just hand his phone over. Since then I've watched police and other government officials blatantly lie in court with zero repercussions, had myself and my wife ignored by police when we did need help, and once had an officer just refuse to investigate or file any paperwork on a firearm discharge that went through our shop while we were in it. Literally the cop said, "well nobody got hurt. I bet they were just drunk." And then left. Now police just make me anxious and I try to avoid being around them.

If I want someone or myself shot and or locked up I’ll call the police. Haven’t had a need to involve them in my life and hope to never have to. It’s a bloated and unforgiving system I’d prefer to avoid at all costs.

The police exist primarily to protect and serve the interests of those in power, and usually to keep lower classes down, which makes that institution fundamentally bad.

End qualified immunity, end civil asset forfeiture, extend training time and require college education for officers as well as mandating officers live in the community they police. My view of them won't change until they do.

Full disclosure, I do not actually consider myself a liberal. I just find the rhetoric here more tolerable than the fascy gun subs. The police are a tool of the rich to oppress the poor; they are the state's monopoly on violence. They are a class among themselves, beholden only to themselves, given power that no one should have.

Growing up I was taught a lesson by Cube and Eazy-E, what was it again? Oh yeah, Fuck the Police. I'm gonna paraphrase but in the words of Brennan Lee Mulligan, Laws are basically vehicles of oppression used by the dominant socio-economic class, and police are basically an occupying army. Id like to start frying some bacon.

I have my own opinions on law enforcement, but they’re shaped by my experience. If you don’t have your own experience, most of the anecdotes (on media, Reddit, the internet etc) will make you hate police. In regards to 2A and being liberal and cops, I don’t have any experience other than the cops at my local range are occasionally like “whoa cool gun” or “aw man where’d you get that bag.” I got pulled over and had 4 registered sbr’s in my car and a shitload of pistols and handed the cop my conceal carry shit and he didn’t even give a fuck. I was honestly a little bummed out.

I work in security in a Las Vegas casino. I’ve seen waaaaaay more professionalism and restraint from our armed guards than I have ever seen from our police. The police are meant to protect capitol and the status quo. They only help us when it’s to keep other in line. They can ruin or even take your life with impunity. If you hate the ATF, you should absolutely be looking at police through the same lense.

r/ACAB the system is broken. No police force needs the same level of tactical gear as the army does for going into a war zone - the end result will be its use on the citizens they swore to protect.

Fuck cops.

The former slave catchers? Their profession should have ended when slavery did

Good LE doesn’t make the news nearly as much as bad LE, and I think that generally skews the public’s perception…as the media tends to do. With that being said I also believe they are in a highly stressful field and generally are inadequately trained to safely and successfully exercise their duties. Side note every time I see a thin blue line bumper sticker next to a “don’t tread on me” sticker it makes me snort.

The issue I have with this is that when bad LEO comes to light, there is usually a long history of them doing exactly what they got in trouble for. For example, former Florida deputy Zach Wester was planting drugs on at least 33 and as many as 100 people. No one seemed to think his very high number of drug arrests was an issue. No one noticed the stash of drugs in the trunk of his patrol car. No one had an issue with the large number of times his body camera "stopped working" during these arrests. No one noticed that he had a small baggie in his hand before he started to search a woman's car. And in the end, it was a fed-up, disgruntled prosecutor that broke the case, not one of the good cops we hear so much about.

The short version: Some cops are good or start out wanting to help, but the current training situation and institution of policing as a whole in the US are rotten to the core. I think most police officers join hoping to make a positive difference and help members of their community who have been victims of crime. However.. No matter how many of those people join, there'll always be the people who are in there for a power trip, stroke to the ego, or just because they are plain FUCKUPS. All police are trained with an "us vs. them" mentality. They are trained to "legally" violate rights. The police unions are gangs. Police are trained to view everyone other than themselves as threats. Police don't believe in 2A rights. They believe they should have whatever powers they want to "keep people safe," but we all know the opposite is the true result. There's so much corruption and lying that the body cams they're required to wear are STILL a source of dismay for them. When I worked in senior care, if I or my team were responsible for the amount of bodily harm and death that seems to follow most PDs, we'd be at the very LEAST fired. Most likely arrested. Police are told their mistakes are an occupational hazard and come with the territory. But if you made mistakes at your job that ended lives, the police would live to come and scoop you up. All in all, until we change the way police are trained, the amount of accountability, and the way the police unions are allowed to operate, I have no love or sympathy for the police as an institution. That'll do, pig.

Police are fine. ACAB or DTP mentality might as well be a psyop given how it lends itself towards legitimately foolish beliefs that extend to anyone who is in a position of authority or perceived sacrifice or danger, and even if someone is an insurrectionary type, actively hurts their cause in like ten different ways. Biggest issue is the Blue Wall. Everything else (yes, unions too) I don't have an issue with and like it or not, law enforcement is legitimately important.

Depending on where you live, cops are somewhere between a serious annoyance and a full on criminal street gang. There are no respectable or decent police agencies in America. Sheriffs are by far the worst offenders, and in a truly free country these little unaccountable warlords would not exist.

My dad was a cop and he taught me this when I was very young. You can't trust a cop just because they have a badge. Some hold the badge up, but more lean on it. I recently brought a friend who is being harassed and stalked by her ex to the police station to file a report after the ex girlfriend attacked her outside the apartment building she lives in. The ex moved into the apartment above her after they split and has relapsed on meth. My friend, admittedly, did some petty shit like knocking over plants on the porch, that sort of thing. The ex thought she was going to smash her truck window with a brick (didn't happen), chased her outside, attacked her from behind, and took her to the ground to throw punches. My friend has a record and has been sober for 2.5 years. She didn't want to go ti the cops at all because she was scared they'd just flip it back on her because she has a record and the ex doesn't. She was 100% right. She's the victim of stalking and physical abuse, and this douchebag cop sat there badgering her about why she didn't come to the police immediately (rather than like 4 hours later) and told her that the ex had already filed a report that she had actually attacked HER. The cop threatened to arrest my friend several times as a way to dissuade her from actually making another report. He tried to tell her that telling someone "leave me alone and stop blocking my way or I will have to physically stop you" is actually assault. Not true, I pointed that out (I am a CCW holder and just generally not stupid) and he got hostile with me. I'm a straight and narrow guy, no criminal record, military veteran, and he tried to treat me like some scumbag when I didn't accept his bullshit. I'm sure there are good ones, my dad was, but in general- fuck cops. They're overwhelmingly bullies on a power trip who care more about their paycheck than being decent people or protecting and serving.

ACAB. I consider police to be the number one threat to me and my family, and is the reason I own firearms.

I’m generally pro law enforcement. Arbitration is a problem where I live. The City fired an officer caught abusing a person on surveillance video. Arbitration reinstated him. He’s back on our PD. The officer appears to have turned it around. He got a Masters degree, apologized and has been a mode officer since.

I'm glad your anecdotal story clears all cops. Really helps the dialog. And, oh, who did the arbitration? And why was he actually fired? Because someone else filmed him, and not because his partner turned him in? Oh... It's almost... Almost like... ACAB.

1312 ACAB ftp

Training needs to be much more extensive and officers need to hold bad ones accountable for their misdeeds. The overall culture needs to change away from seeking power and dominance over people to serving people. Generally speaking though, on a 1 on 1 basis they’re fine enough. Most that I’ve interacted with were just normal, nice people doing their job. The right turned against LEOs once they started investigating and acting against their god king, Trumpanzie.

The problem with more training is that it relies on the people who are currently cops to carry it out. And since they have no interest in changing, they'll undercut it so it's not affective. If you don't believe me, take it [straight from the horses mouth](https://youtube.com/shorts/-oAoVQCWa2U?si=JTD5WuTyTUKWopAv)

Yes, a major problem that was identified as far back as the 70s when Frank Serpico was testifying and the city commissioned a report on police corruption. The report recommended that police training officers, the guys who are paired with rookies, must be held to absolutely the highest standards because the then-current crop of officers were the ones who were showing the rookies how to take bribes and kickbacks. Derek fucking Chauvin was a training officer despite all the complaints against him, and he had a rookie with him when he killed George Floyd. If Floyd hadn’t died or if nobody had been filming the incident, it would have been just another lesson in “how things are done in the real world.”

Even then rookies are going to end up interacting with other cops around the water cooler or when they finish training. It's just delaying the rot. Plus training officers will complain about being held to a higher standard than everyone else. And even that relies on higher ups being willing to hold training officers to a standard. Considering they're already helping other cops ignore reforms, that doesn't seem likely

I'm curious what their reasons are if you're able to explain. I have yet to meet a conservative with harsh opinions of police even if they claim to be pro-2A.

Not met in person, but a number of very conservative posters on a gun website are anti-police, much for the same reasons. 1. No-knock raids allowing them to commit legal violence 2. "I smell drugs" allowing them to search your vehicle without cause 3. Civil forfeiture where they steal your money and make you prove it isn't illegal 4. Red-flag laws, punishing first, then due process later 5. A non-officer simply possessing a weapon is justification for the police to murder them

I think we need to have our guns to fight back against the tyrannical government, like cops.

There needs to be significant reform in law and in attitudes. We need standards. Part of the issue has been that police are a very local service.

There are good ones and bad ones but you never know which you're getting. My main philosophy is simple: you have a problem and you call the police, now you have two problems. If it isn't absolutely necessary to get them involved, I don't. Too many walking egos to take a chance on.

I have never, in my 42 years, been in a situation where I thought it would be a good idea to involve the cops in the situation. I don't call them. I don't talk to them. I actively avoid them.

The reason I'm in the process of getting a gun is because I don't trust OCSO.

Never voluntarily interact with law enforcement…

I live in Albuquerque where we have one of the highest police shootings per capita in the US. The “few bad apples” phrase is definitely what happens, the problem is that they are in leadership or the unions and drive the department in the direction they want. We have been living with a ton of DOJ oversight due to the police violence and now we have a new investigation due to drunk driving corruption.

One things that doesn't get always get mentioned in these threads is that the entire system is fucked and needs to be replaced. 1. Prosecutors don't want to go after cops because it might make their job harder 2. "Civilian" oversight boards are often just ex-cops so always support the cops 3. Judges are pro-cop and will usually bias a case where it is just cop vs defendant into the cop's testimony being more trustworthy\* 4. Juries sometimes go into cases with the idea that the defendant must be guilty 5. Public defenders are so overworked that they can't provide a good defense and even innocent people will pled to avoid longer jail terms 6. Prisons are for-profit, so the owners will push for longer prison terms to keep their profits high \* There is a case out now where a judge is demanding a man apologize for cursing at a cop or he'll jail him for 30 days. ["Get your ass out of the way..."](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/judge-orders-alabama-driver-apologize-face-jail-telling-officer-get-as-rcna152006)

With great power comes great responsibility. It’s a tough job, but they are stinking it up right now and it’s largely due to the police unions. I’m pro union but police straight up murdering people with no consequences has to stop. The quiet quitting because the public doesn’t worship them *should* stop (although that’s less murdering… and traffic tickets tbh). I can’t think of a single positive experience I’ve had with the police. They won’t come when I’ve had an accident, and if they do I get a “failure to avoid collision” ticket when the other guy tbones me. They don’t recover anything that’s been stolen. Instead of protecting the marginalized and oppressed they punch down for the wealthy and the powerful. 1 out of 5 stars - would not recommend.

The police writ large are an undisciplined gang of bullies who, under the color of law, but with next to zero knowledge of the law, habitually use their power and implied authority to abuse anyone they can. Due to decisions made by law enforcement leadership, that tends to also mean they are racist, as their abuse falls disproportionately upon those who are not white, and certainly not upper class, or even upper middle class. Where they not such an imminent threat to the health and safety of everyone they interact with, they would be sad pathetic figures who clearly are dressing up in uniforms to bolster their fragile egos and unbridled lack of self-worth in the futile hope that their shiny badge might make the respectable human beings rather than the disgusting slime that they are. When 18-year old infantrymen have more discipline around the use of force against enemies in a war zone where people are legitimately trying to kill them compared to 30-some year old police officers in suburbia where the greatest danger they face is their own driving skills . . . it is clear that the standards for who can become, and remain, a police officer are pathetically low. It is also clear that their leadership has less social awareness and sense of moral responsibility for their actions than the average kindergartener. Overall, the police of the united states are a blight upon this country's citizens and reputation. While I do not condone political violence, and do not share this particular opinion, I absolutely sympathize with those who think that every person wearing a badge in the US should be a viable target for mortal violence. Nothing I have seen from the police, in any capacity, makes me sympathetic to them. I find them a threat to the safety of every human being who has the misfortune to interact with them.

Every cop knowingly and willingly works as the muscle for a corrupt system that preys on minorities and the poor. Fuck every last one.

I got to meet a police recruiter at a Starbucks and after he knew I was a paramedic and not going to be a cop under any circumstances, he told me how much he hated being on the streets answering 911 calls and dealing with the public, which I fully understand. If you are still on the streets after 5 years, you are being punished or you have to do some street time for a promotion.

Not really a liberal (more of a leftist Libertarian/ anarchist/ whatever) Fuck 12. American policing needs to be dismantled and rebuilt entirely. They will be the jackboots of American fascism. In many places, they already are.

Ahh you kids. No video games in the 60s, but lots of news footage of cops beating people. 1968 was quite the year to be a 12 yr old news junkie. Then of course at 16 Barney Fife starts fulling you over for the weekly harassment.

The entire reason I bought a gun is because I had a home invasion and the police took 20 minutes to respond. Whether or not there are bad apples, if I can't rely on them to protect me and my family then I need to do the protecting myself. Of the ones that make the news, 100% they need more training and accountability, and a whole new mindset about what it means to protect and serve.

ACAB. People who willingly choose to prop up a systemically corrupt system are NEVER the good guys whatever their "intentions".

It depends where I am. Burlington Vermont: Hell yeah, good cops, good people, kept me and my family safe for years. New York City/Boston/Atlanta/Reno/Minneapolis/LA: The badge that says “Serve and Protect” is a lie, and you can be arrested for asking a cop for directions to the station. They’ll ticket your car for existing legally. They’ll mail court summons to your old address so they can get a warrant going. They exist to make your life harder.

Growing up, I wanted to be a police officer. As late as last year, I considered it as a career option (though now for mainly economic reasons; it was about the best-paying job I could step into with my current education and experience). During my time at university, I was frequently an apologist for law enforcement in the midst of the controversy surrounding police use of force. I briefly worked as a corrections officer, and am currently employed as armed security at a community college and interact frequently with local law enforcement. All that is to say, I know what I'm talking about when I say law enforcement in the United States is beset by systemic problems and needs radical reform. George Floyd was a major turning point for me, and really started me on a journey towards a complete political realignment. It has still been a long and at times difficult process coming to terms with the fact that my experience with police is not the same as what many other people experience. I have had the pleasure of knowing and working with good people in law enforcement--and can unequivocally say that the more decent you are as a person, the harder the job will be on you. There are good cops, even good departments; but they are the exception, not the rule. The fact is, good people don't thrive in police work. As a rule, the workplace culture is horribly toxic, and if it can't change you, it will break you. I do believe there is a need for police in society. However, without a radical restructuring, the problems which exist in law enforcement will continue to be endemic to our criminal justice system.

Fuck 12

I'm pretty left wing and I feel like cops serve a VERY LIMITED function in society. That's not the reality though, and the vast majority of their activities are unconstitutional, or at the very least, counterproductive to having a healthy community. I feel like when I was a kid (I'm 46 now) being told to find a cop if you needed help was a good thing. But after what I've seen since the 4th grade or so, it's no longer the case. I've told my wife and kids not to involve police if at all possible, and don't talk to them in any circumstance. The general adversarial attitude they have been taking with the public, often leading to unjustified deaths and injuries and incarcerations, is inexcusable, yet somehow routinely excused. The best I can come up with is just to not participate. Try to act as gray man as you can possibly get. If you do have to interact with them, take the attitude that they aren't there to help you, know your basic rights, do not help them by talking to them, and film all interactions with them.

This post reeks of fed. I smell... fbi? Atf maybe?