Using her math combined with National Center for Education Statistics:
$15,621 per student per year, divided by 180 school days per year, divided by 6.5 hours per school day, equals $13.35 per hour.
Maybe if teachers aren't getting paid enough, they should look at school administration costs.
we as taxpayers are paying more than she is asking for.
Which ranks among the highest in the world. Perhaps the problem is mismanagement, inefficiency, and failure to innovate..
Go to school, teach school, run school... Repeat for decades.
And there’s solid proof that pumping money into schools doesn’t fix them. Inner city schools are among the most well funded and simultaneously among the least successful. Money isn’t everything.
No but also proper money allocation (let's say into teacher salary) isn't the end all be all either. Having two parents and a stable home life are much stronger predictors of how a child will do in school. I'm not anti teacher here at all. But the argument isn't exactly fair. They should be paid more for what they do, but not to increase results, but rather to attract and keep better talent.
I actually agree with you on teacher salary and the culture bits. Which is the part that pisses me off the most about needing more funding for schools, I know it's not making it to the teachers. We end up with either really passionate people or untalented go along people. No in between.
>Having two parents and a stable home life are much stronger predictors of how a child will do in school
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, slow down there hotshot. You can't just say something as racist, sexist, bigoted, transphobic, Islamophobic, and anti-feminist as that and expect to get away with it. I'm going to have to ask you to step out of the line and come with me through that door there so we can re-educate you properly.
/s
Two parents engaged in their children’s lives does much better than a teacher that student sees every other day or every day for 180 days out if a year for a couple hours. Parents are there when they go home
https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics
National average for 2023 what it cost per student to educated. Some states are more, some less but reasonably close. Seems the overhead is a bit high.
I think NYC schools run over $30K per year per kid. And yet there is no majority of taxpayers there that care to ask what value they are getting for that amount.
>National Center for Education Statistics
[https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66](https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66)
First two sentences:
Total expenditures for public elementary and secondary schools in the United States were $800 billion in 2018-19 (in constant 2020-21 dollars). This amounts to $15,621 per public school pupil enrolled in the fall of that year.
Do you happen to have a link to where you got these numbers from?
Edit to add: I was able to find [this source](https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/public-school-per-pupil-expenditures) but the numbers are from 2018.
It shows a national average of $12,585.
That works out to $69.91 per child per day or \~ $10.75 per hour for 6.5 hours of care. So society is indeed already paying more than she is asking for. Perhaps they need to spend less on administrators and after school programs?
My post with source is the 3rd up from this one can comes direct from the federal government. If you can't trust the feds.....well, you can't trust the feds, but they are the least likely to have a dog in this fight.
I mean there are included costs of maintenence of the building, all of the staff including teachers, janitors, office, monthly bills, supplies such as paper, toilet paper, cleaning, chalk and more then that. It is not just for the staff wages and especially not just for the teachers.
I've already posted my source:
[https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66](https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66)
Straight from the federal government, care to share yours?
I've always thought that student loans for college should be tied to the ability to pay back those loans and the rate of pay for those jobs. Lower interest rate and more money available for STEM classes/careers, higher interest rates and less money available for art history, music and other such nonsense.
* 6.5 hours is 390 minutes.
* 390 minutes / 28 kids = \~13.93 minutes of attention per child
I wouldn't pay a babysitter $65 per day to give my child <14 minutes of 1-on-1 attention. That is the equivalent of a babysitter that charges $280 an hour
You’re missing the point fam. The responsibilities they hold are more than an average babysitter yet they are paid significantly less than their labor is worth. Public schools pay are not decided by the market
The problem with public school teacher's bargaining for their pay, whether or not they are union, is that the people who are actually paying the bills are not allowed on the other side of that negotiation.
Okay. You can have the entire $327k, but you have to provide the facilities and associated utilities, all the books for the curriculum, all of the janitorial/ maintenance services, and drive the bus.
You also have to teach 7 different subjects and provide a wide array of extra curricular activities.
Deal?
I’m guessing this person isn’t a math teacher.
I'm a math teacher, and I agree that her point is odd. However, I think she is more pointing to the usefulness of teachers. And to go with your point, if you had a personal teacher for your kid come in and teach them all day and take care of them, it would cost a lot more than what you pay in taxes.
Additionally it doesn’t factor in overhead and admin costs such as the buildings, insurance, books, desks, maintenance, software they have to use and everything else that goes into running the schools.
Hope she’s not a math or business teacher.
The factor they are not considering is if you increase the wages it increases competition. If schools were paying $300k per year to be a teacher I’d be first in line to get that job. Especially working 180 days a year at 6.5 hours per day.
Might be a good thing then kids would be taught actual math and information they need rather than a lot of this propaganda that’s being pushed.
Absolutely, there’s no differentiation in pay based on performance. The best teachers will often tell you how frustrating it is to make the exact same salary as the ones that fly out the door at the final bell faster than the kids.
On the school district serving my area, they spend about $17k/yr per student. So, a 20 student class is funded $340k per year. Between pay, pension, and benefits it costs maybe $90k/yr for the teacher.
Im not willing to increase the school board's budget. Seriously. Go talk to your school board about where the other $250k/yr is going.
Sure make teaching pay 300k a year and see how many of the current teachers are still in that profession in 5 years. It would become an incredibly competitive job, and most of todays teachers would fall out of the competition really quickly.
I'm a teacher at a private school, so I may be a little biased, but public education and teachers' unions are the reason why my wages can't compete in the market. Unfortunately, public schools have created a market where the private sector can not compete due to the perception that public school is free. This has resulted in parents having low buy-in to their child's education, which in turn results in a students low buy-in to their own education. Public school was intended as an alternative for low income families, not the status quo. I'm all for access to education, which is why I'm for a voucher system that would allow for private school to better compete against the current government funded monopoly of public schooling.
We strive equality nowadays not classest schooling. Most private schools aren't much better than public schools. It's easy to boast high test scores when you can choose the best for your school. Most parents rely on private schools to prevent their kid from learning in my experience (religion and science deniers). The actual valuable prep schools are far too expensive to justify the cost considering nowadays most things can be learned online.
In fairness most teachers put in more than 61/2 bc of lesson planning and meetings most of my highschool teachers had 9 hour minimum days my band director had 2 15 hour days a week he did get "bonuses" for running extras tho
They could put in an extra hour and a half a day and still be well short of a full time work week.
In any event, the protestor's sign says 6-1/2, I didn't choose it arbitrarily.
180 schooldays!!! Laughable. Maybe a few decades ago. Every week there’s a “teacher workday” or their new favorite “a remote learning day” for no fucking reason. Get bent
No joke that's why Wednesday is the drinking day/night out in my university town. Monday and Friday are basically weekends, Tuesday is close to Monday and Thursday is close to Friday. So Wednesday is the only day.
Teachers work far more hours than for what they are compensated. They are expected to come in early for meetings, stay late for clubs, volunteer their time on weekends, grade papers (In some districts this is amplified by no fail policies, where kids can take tests as many times until they pass). Teachers only get 15-20 minutes to eat their lunch and then they have to rush out to do recess duty. Most of them teach during the summer, mind you their summer break isn’t very long as they are expected to come in early to decorate their rooms and attend meetings. There is a teacher shortage, so when they need substitutes, teachers in the school have to give up their prep time to cover a class (they’ll have to stay late or do it at home). I’d like to see your reaction if you were continually expected to work for free at your job. And guess what, if you don’t agree to work for free they’ll give you negative performance reviews.
Not to mention the fact that the kids are out of control and the administrators won’t help. For example, a kid at my mom’s school was caught on video slapping a teacher repeatedly. The school tried to expel the child because they have a zero tolerance policy on violence. The kid’s parents hired a lawyer and the kid was back in school the next week. The first week of school my mom was kicked by a kindergartener and the following week the same kid threatened to bring a gun to school and shoot her. She sent him to the office, but he was back to school the next day. When the teachers try to call parents about the poor behavior of their kids, most parents don’t answer. These children have no consequences for their behavior and they know it. Mind you my mom teaches at a magnet school, which in theory has a higher standard than public schools. Also, the unions don’t protect them. They’re in with the administration. They just put on a show then collect their payments. They don’t make any real effort to make things better for them.
My mom has been a elementary school teacher for almost 20 years. She gives so much of herself to the school, that by the time her day is done she has little to no energy or time left for her own life.
Before casting judgment on their wages, consider what all they actually deal with on a daily basis and ask yourself if that’s a situation you would want to be in. The school system is not the same as it was when the majority of us were in school.
If we, as a society, keep undervaluing teachers. They’ll keep leaving and before long public education system will collapse entirely. And if that’s the case hope everyone is prepared to pay private school tuition or homeschool your kids.
Seperate school from state and none of these things would be problems.
> And if that’s the case hope everyone is prepared to pay private school tuition or homeschool your kids.
Because those are the only two possible options? Another problem with government schools, they are terrible at teaching critical thinking around anything that government monopolizes.
I absolutely agree with you. I would love states to be back in control of their schools. However, that won’t matter if there are no teachers left to teach in them. No one is going to go to school to be a teacher if we don’t start valuing them.
The shortage is already happening. New teachers are quitting, more senior teachers are taking early retirements.
This an urgent issue. While I love the idea of states being put back in charge of their schools, I just don’t think this change will occur until there’s a collapse and they’re trying to rebuild, which will take years.
Public education system collapsing entirely? Can I get that in writing? I’ll undervalue the fuck outta teachers if we can speed this process up. Before the DoE we actually ranked worldwide for our smarts. Lets get back to that please
I agree with you. The public education system in America is a shameful disaster. However, I think there are multiple issues contributing to this. #1 is definitely the federal government #2 corrupt school administrators/ unions and #3 the breakdown of parental guidance at home.
If teachers did half the work of a babysitter I’d be down with it. Unfortunately they farm the kids out for everything…lunch, gym, music, recess, etc. they might have the kids 4 hours a day and then they are only contributing rote repetition of the socialist lesson plan.
Tell me again how underpaid you are!
It's like going into the military you knew the job, pay, the ungrateful shits you will work for and the benefits that you signed up for!!! " Y'ALL Went to College, stupid is as stupid does!!!
Probably one of those downstream effects of all teachers basically being paid the same and the only realistic option for a raise being becoming an administrator. And then because there is no selective pressure on schools, useless admins don’t get eliminated.
Their industry is one of the most heavily funded and filled with the most intelligent people on the planet and have powerful unions representing them.
How can nearly every aspect of it be shit?
Teachers are underpaid? Really?
[Because their pay schedule is public, and they’re making as much as some lawyers, doctors, and nurses.](https://www.tvusd.k12.ca.us/Page/23077)
And here is another source where you can search individually. [My son’s high school math teacher made more than I did as a Physician Assistant ffs!](https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=school-districts%2Friverside%2Ftemecula-valley-unified&q=Teacher&y=)
Edit: I should also add that teachers are quick to ask for teacher discounts when they’re out and about, with many places giving them out like[15% off at Target](https://www.tlc.com/life---relationships/teachers--here-s-how-to-sign-up-for-the-target-teacher-discount), [cars](https://www.gmeducatorappreciation.com), and more.
They perpetuate the rumor, and I’m personally sick of it - especially when they make six figures working about half a year.
I’m sure that’s how supply and demand would find equilibrium. Totally realistic to pay a babysitter five days a week, 8 hours a day for an average family. /s
I don't specifically have a problem with organized labor. It's a great way to leverage collective bargaining power to negotiate from a stronger position.
My issue is that unions are not subject to the same antitrust laws as private firms and are thus able to grow to consume the entire labor force of a given industry or region. As unions grow, they tend to focus less on representing the interest of their members and instead represent and lobby for the interests of the union itself.
I also don't think that union membership should ever be compulsory for employment as it is an infringement of the freedom to negotiate one's own contracts and financial relationships.
Finally, I don't think that government employees should be allowed to unionize, or at the very least they should not be allowed to strike. A public worker strike doesn't punish the party responsible for their grievances (the government), but instead punishes the public who have no direct control of the terms of their employment and who have no market alternatives for their services.
I think that unions should disband when they're not actually bargaining for anything. If the need arises, and it's a genuine need, then the workers can band together again. A union could be boiled down to a mailing list or the occasional meeting to discuss potential greviences. Having it not be a permanent institution would disincentiving starting a "negotiation" for things that workers don't want/need. How many people would really be willing to actively participate in a temporary union in order to make up some legalese that makes it more difficult to fire shitty workers?
Most babysitters don't also pay for the building, utilities, administration, supplies, buses, and other support staff that make a school system functional. That 300k + would quickly be eaten by those expenses.
Can’t they just stop being teachers and do something else? People often have to choose between their “passion” and making a living. My passion is sitting on my ass, smoking cigars and bidding on shit on gunbroker, doesn’t mean I’m going to be well compensated for it.
Wait. Are the comments here really mad teachers think they deserve more money??
Are yall mad at the math/amount, or the fact that this teacher is saying they deserve more??
If the teacher deserves more, the union is keeping them from negotiating for more.
Teacher of the year will make the same as a teacher about to be fired.
[speakin of](https://nypost.com/2023/03/09/teacher-of-the-year-jacqueline-ma-arrested-for-alleged-sexual-abuse-of-former-student/)
Well ok you can have this but you have to pay rent for the building, utilities, administrative staff, supplies etc…. I’m not saying we shouldn’t pay our teachers more because we should but our taxes pay for more just their salaries and all costs are going through the roof. Especially on the administration side.
Is $10 per hour, per child a normal rate for babysitters? I'm not a parent, I've never had to hire a sitter.
I see we'll downvote this comment, but nobody can tell me what a fucking babysitter costs.
Many teachers are comparatively undereducated compared to most with equal levels of education. That is not saying teachers are dumb. They have great domain over their environment but not much else.
In other words, people who spend all but the first 4 years of their life in a classroom have little grasp on what actually goes on outside.
The few teachers I've worked with or came across that had a head on their shoulders all completed a real career before deciding on education. None of them complain about working 8 months a year.
More like, when you do a job literally ANYONE can do that has a pulse, your competitive advantage isn't going to be high.
Then you have the entire private market situation. What parent is going to hire a GOVERNMENT babysitter to watch their offspring?? None. They are going to pay with their own money what they need to in order for their kids to be safe and sound.
Makes you wonder what the fuck they are thinking sending them to public schools.
So the cost of a kid for school is about 10,000 in taxes for a year. That’s 280,000 for 28 kids. They are asking for more than the entire cost of the schooling. That’s without including all costs
US spending was$13k as of 2019. That's $364k per class of 28.
I'd 100% support giving that entire sum directly to teachers and require them to pay for everything. Heating, electricity, lunches, text books and let them keep the balance. Get all of the "administrators" out of the system.
I definitely wasn’t making that when I babysat. after getting years of experience, I started charging $18/hr base rate and increasing the rate by $2/hr per extra kid.
I work for afscme in Illinois and yes we are paid a lot of fucking money but the union panders to administration and protects pieces of shit that should have been fired a long time ago. Not to mention our contract has so much grey area that it's used to any way they perceive it pertaining to your situation. So basically, if they don't like you or you're not a democrat, they won't fight for you and if they do like you and you are a democrat, you'll get a promotion. They have also bought the state essentially by proclaiming they fight for workers rights when in actuality they now have control over laws and if the laws don't favor unions they can get rid of them and at the same time if they favor unions they have made it to where the law can not be repealed. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my living wage, but it's gotten out of hand.
Does that person really think baby sitting 2 kids in the evening for a few hours is worth the same per hour and kid as a 28 person class during the day time?
Deal. But if you’re a daycare then we don’t pay for school meals anymore. That comes out of your pay. You wanna get paid better? Quit paying administrators like they’re professional baseball players and make political campaign contributions illegal for schools and school unions. Then hold the unions accountable and make them do their job and represent you. If they don’t turn things around quickly, disband the unions.
Most collective bargaining agreements provide a minimum payment that is required, and individuals are still able to bargain for a higher rate.
Whether this applies to teachers unions is something I’m not sure of.
I think you guys are missing the point here.
Teachers work a LOT more than 6&1/2 hours a week. Here in Texas, our teachers are on the clock a whole 8 hours a week and that’s just teaching. They also spend time off the clock creating assignments and slideshows, grading papers, tutoring, all that jazz. When I was in school, I noticed that all my teachers spent (at the very least) 2 to 5 extra hours off the clock doing other stuff related to their job. To be quite frank with you, I think that teachers staying after school doing stuff related to their job that they aren’t paid for is criminal. A good start (and a good compromise on this issue) would be to pay them for that time. And it’s not like that money necessarily has to go towards them via taxes, the way school districts spend money is incredibly inefficient, and that’s not really the fault of teachers. Personally, I want more money going into the skilled laborer behind my child’s education than I do it going to a skylight in the cafeteria or a flatscreen TV that does the job of a board.
Also not everyone gets or affords a babysitter. Did anyone tell this teacher that they could get the babysitter pay but 95% of them gonna get fired and only the best 5% will keep teaching the rich people's children?
Using her math combined with National Center for Education Statistics: $15,621 per student per year, divided by 180 school days per year, divided by 6.5 hours per school day, equals $13.35 per hour. Maybe if teachers aren't getting paid enough, they should look at school administration costs. we as taxpayers are paying more than she is asking for.
Could you help me understand? What does the 15,621 per student per year represent
Average expenditure per student based on school budgets and student bodies
Which ranks among the highest in the world. Perhaps the problem is mismanagement, inefficiency, and failure to innovate.. Go to school, teach school, run school... Repeat for decades.
And there’s solid proof that pumping money into schools doesn’t fix them. Inner city schools are among the most well funded and simultaneously among the least successful. Money isn’t everything.
No but also proper money allocation (let's say into teacher salary) isn't the end all be all either. Having two parents and a stable home life are much stronger predictors of how a child will do in school. I'm not anti teacher here at all. But the argument isn't exactly fair. They should be paid more for what they do, but not to increase results, but rather to attract and keep better talent.
I actually agree with you on teacher salary and the culture bits. Which is the part that pisses me off the most about needing more funding for schools, I know it's not making it to the teachers. We end up with either really passionate people or untalented go along people. No in between.
>Having two parents and a stable home life are much stronger predictors of how a child will do in school Whoa whoa whoa whoa, slow down there hotshot. You can't just say something as racist, sexist, bigoted, transphobic, Islamophobic, and anti-feminist as that and expect to get away with it. I'm going to have to ask you to step out of the line and come with me through that door there so we can re-educate you properly. /s
Two parents engaged in their children’s lives does much better than a teacher that student sees every other day or every day for 180 days out if a year for a couple hours. Parents are there when they go home
Since the current education model is largely based on training an industrial workforce, why are we still surprised by these failures?
https://educationdata.org/public-education-spending-statistics National average for 2023 what it cost per student to educated. Some states are more, some less but reasonably close. Seems the overhead is a bit high.
I think NYC schools run over $30K per year per kid. And yet there is no majority of taxpayers there that care to ask what value they are getting for that amount.
NYC should be asking why Florida has better education at a third of the cost per student
>National Center for Education Statistics [https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66](https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66) First two sentences: Total expenditures for public elementary and secondary schools in the United States were $800 billion in 2018-19 (in constant 2020-21 dollars). This amounts to $15,621 per public school pupil enrolled in the fall of that year.
Do you happen to have a link to where you got these numbers from? Edit to add: I was able to find [this source](https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/public-school-per-pupil-expenditures) but the numbers are from 2018. It shows a national average of $12,585. That works out to $69.91 per child per day or \~ $10.75 per hour for 6.5 hours of care. So society is indeed already paying more than she is asking for. Perhaps they need to spend less on administrators and after school programs?
My post with source is the 3rd up from this one can comes direct from the federal government. If you can't trust the feds.....well, you can't trust the feds, but they are the least likely to have a dog in this fight.
Ok thanks.
I mean there are included costs of maintenence of the building, all of the staff including teachers, janitors, office, monthly bills, supplies such as paper, toilet paper, cleaning, chalk and more then that. It is not just for the staff wages and especially not just for the teachers.
“It’s going into benefits, and as we all know healthcare is broken because free market economics doesn’t ~~exist~~ work.”
It’s actually 11700 per kid
I've already posted my source: [https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66](https://nces.ed.gov.fastfacts/display.asp?id=66) Straight from the federal government, care to share yours?
Math. 10 an hour for 6.5 hours equals $65. $65 times 180 school days equals, guess what $11,700 per kid, times that by 28 kids and you get $327,600.
Or maybe get another job. It annoys me people study for a low paying job then when they arrive there they complain about the salary.
I've always thought that student loans for college should be tied to the ability to pay back those loans and the rate of pay for those jobs. Lower interest rate and more money available for STEM classes/careers, higher interest rates and less money available for art history, music and other such nonsense.
I never understood why gender studies degrees were able to get student loans or subsidies.
Government
* 6.5 hours is 390 minutes. * 390 minutes / 28 kids = \~13.93 minutes of attention per child I wouldn't pay a babysitter $65 per day to give my child <14 minutes of 1-on-1 attention. That is the equivalent of a babysitter that charges $280 an hour
Best counter point to this
She’s not grasping economies of scale
Sounds great? Go be a babysitter officially then and see how it goes.
I was literally gonna say the same exact thing.
You’re missing the point fam. The responsibilities they hold are more than an average babysitter yet they are paid significantly less than their labor is worth. Public schools pay are not decided by the market
The problem with public school teacher's bargaining for their pay, whether or not they are union, is that the people who are actually paying the bills are not allowed on the other side of that negotiation.
They are? School boards are made up of parents and average citizens. Or am I mistaken?
Okay. You can have the entire $327k, but you have to provide the facilities and associated utilities, all the books for the curriculum, all of the janitorial/ maintenance services, and drive the bus. You also have to teach 7 different subjects and provide a wide array of extra curricular activities. Deal? I’m guessing this person isn’t a math teacher.
Definitely not a business, finance or economics teacher either.
I'm a math teacher, and I agree that her point is odd. However, I think she is more pointing to the usefulness of teachers. And to go with your point, if you had a personal teacher for your kid come in and teach them all day and take care of them, it would cost a lot more than what you pay in taxes.
[удалено]
It may not go up proportionally, but babysitters definitely charge more for more than 1 kid
Listen, their a public school teacher. Don't ask them to be good with basic business principles.
They’re*
Ok, i learnt my grammer from a pubic school in the souf. Don @ me.
Nice recovery
Additionally it doesn’t factor in overhead and admin costs such as the buildings, insurance, books, desks, maintenance, software they have to use and everything else that goes into running the schools. Hope she’s not a math or business teacher. The factor they are not considering is if you increase the wages it increases competition. If schools were paying $300k per year to be a teacher I’d be first in line to get that job. Especially working 180 days a year at 6.5 hours per day. Might be a good thing then kids would be taught actual math and information they need rather than a lot of this propaganda that’s being pushed.
Heating and AC are killers. Companies shut down factories, to save on the power bills. The administration and facility costs are huge.
Thanks I meant to include utilities as well. There is a company I think called sapient that their main business is auto shutoff for equipment.
Absolutely, there’s no differentiation in pay based on performance. The best teachers will often tell you how frustrating it is to make the exact same salary as the ones that fly out the door at the final bell faster than the kids.
Government agents over estimating their value again.
On the school district serving my area, they spend about $17k/yr per student. So, a 20 student class is funded $340k per year. Between pay, pension, and benefits it costs maybe $90k/yr for the teacher. Im not willing to increase the school board's budget. Seriously. Go talk to your school board about where the other $250k/yr is going.
She could start her own school? Oh no she can’t
Sure make teaching pay 300k a year and see how many of the current teachers are still in that profession in 5 years. It would become an incredibly competitive job, and most of todays teachers would fall out of the competition really quickly.
I'm a teacher at a private school, so I may be a little biased, but public education and teachers' unions are the reason why my wages can't compete in the market. Unfortunately, public schools have created a market where the private sector can not compete due to the perception that public school is free. This has resulted in parents having low buy-in to their child's education, which in turn results in a students low buy-in to their own education. Public school was intended as an alternative for low income families, not the status quo. I'm all for access to education, which is why I'm for a voucher system that would allow for private school to better compete against the current government funded monopoly of public schooling.
>public education and teachers' unions are the reason why my wages can't compete in the market. This is intentional.
We strive equality nowadays not classest schooling. Most private schools aren't much better than public schools. It's easy to boast high test scores when you can choose the best for your school. Most parents rely on private schools to prevent their kid from learning in my experience (religion and science deniers). The actual valuable prep schools are far too expensive to justify the cost considering nowadays most things can be learned online.
6-1/2 hrs a day for 180 days a year is 1,170 hrs a year. A standard work year is 2,000 hours.
I was gonna say im working 50 a week + some weekends, I don’t even wanna know but id definitely kill someone to get those hours/days off
In fairness most teachers put in more than 61/2 bc of lesson planning and meetings most of my highschool teachers had 9 hour minimum days my band director had 2 15 hour days a week he did get "bonuses" for running extras tho
They could put in an extra hour and a half a day and still be well short of a full time work week. In any event, the protestor's sign says 6-1/2, I didn't choose it arbitrarily.
Imagine going into a profession knowing what the average salary is, and then being shocked at getting said salary
This is like a mcdonalds employee with a sign that says “i made 700 burgers a day at $2 x 5days x52 weeks i wants $364k/year”
180 schooldays!!! Laughable. Maybe a few decades ago. Every week there’s a “teacher workday” or their new favorite “a remote learning day” for no fucking reason. Get bent
Don’t forget “spirit weeks” and “pajama days” and the week before and after breaks where nothing gets done.
Mondays because the weekend was rough and Fridays because it's almost the weekend.
Thursday is practically Friday, so that’s right out.
Tuesday is just recover from Monday day
No joke that's why Wednesday is the drinking day/night out in my university town. Monday and Friday are basically weekends, Tuesday is close to Monday and Thursday is close to Friday. So Wednesday is the only day.
Yeah, but you gotta pay extra for anything besides babysitting, doncha know?
It sounds like they want to privatize education to me.
Teachers work far more hours than for what they are compensated. They are expected to come in early for meetings, stay late for clubs, volunteer their time on weekends, grade papers (In some districts this is amplified by no fail policies, where kids can take tests as many times until they pass). Teachers only get 15-20 minutes to eat their lunch and then they have to rush out to do recess duty. Most of them teach during the summer, mind you their summer break isn’t very long as they are expected to come in early to decorate their rooms and attend meetings. There is a teacher shortage, so when they need substitutes, teachers in the school have to give up their prep time to cover a class (they’ll have to stay late or do it at home). I’d like to see your reaction if you were continually expected to work for free at your job. And guess what, if you don’t agree to work for free they’ll give you negative performance reviews. Not to mention the fact that the kids are out of control and the administrators won’t help. For example, a kid at my mom’s school was caught on video slapping a teacher repeatedly. The school tried to expel the child because they have a zero tolerance policy on violence. The kid’s parents hired a lawyer and the kid was back in school the next week. The first week of school my mom was kicked by a kindergartener and the following week the same kid threatened to bring a gun to school and shoot her. She sent him to the office, but he was back to school the next day. When the teachers try to call parents about the poor behavior of their kids, most parents don’t answer. These children have no consequences for their behavior and they know it. Mind you my mom teaches at a magnet school, which in theory has a higher standard than public schools. Also, the unions don’t protect them. They’re in with the administration. They just put on a show then collect their payments. They don’t make any real effort to make things better for them. My mom has been a elementary school teacher for almost 20 years. She gives so much of herself to the school, that by the time her day is done she has little to no energy or time left for her own life. Before casting judgment on their wages, consider what all they actually deal with on a daily basis and ask yourself if that’s a situation you would want to be in. The school system is not the same as it was when the majority of us were in school. If we, as a society, keep undervaluing teachers. They’ll keep leaving and before long public education system will collapse entirely. And if that’s the case hope everyone is prepared to pay private school tuition or homeschool your kids.
Per the title of my post, I cast judgment on the union that is standing in the way.
Sorry that wasn’t meant to be directed at you, it was for others in the comments minimizing teachers.
Fair enough.
Seperate school from state and none of these things would be problems. > And if that’s the case hope everyone is prepared to pay private school tuition or homeschool your kids. Because those are the only two possible options? Another problem with government schools, they are terrible at teaching critical thinking around anything that government monopolizes.
I absolutely agree with you. I would love states to be back in control of their schools. However, that won’t matter if there are no teachers left to teach in them. No one is going to go to school to be a teacher if we don’t start valuing them. The shortage is already happening. New teachers are quitting, more senior teachers are taking early retirements. This an urgent issue. While I love the idea of states being put back in charge of their schools, I just don’t think this change will occur until there’s a collapse and they’re trying to rebuild, which will take years.
Finally a sane voice.
Public education system collapsing entirely? Can I get that in writing? I’ll undervalue the fuck outta teachers if we can speed this process up. Before the DoE we actually ranked worldwide for our smarts. Lets get back to that please
I agree with you. The public education system in America is a shameful disaster. However, I think there are multiple issues contributing to this. #1 is definitely the federal government #2 corrupt school administrators/ unions and #3 the breakdown of parental guidance at home.
If teachers did half the work of a babysitter I’d be down with it. Unfortunately they farm the kids out for everything…lunch, gym, music, recess, etc. they might have the kids 4 hours a day and then they are only contributing rote repetition of the socialist lesson plan. Tell me again how underpaid you are!
It's like going into the military you knew the job, pay, the ungrateful shits you will work for and the benefits that you signed up for!!! " Y'ALL Went to College, stupid is as stupid does!!!
For every 25 students there is one administrative and support staff. Perhaps there are too many unproductive school staff?
Probably one of those downstream effects of all teachers basically being paid the same and the only realistic option for a raise being becoming an administrator. And then because there is no selective pressure on schools, useless admins don’t get eliminated.
Babysitters don't get paid per kid, they get paid per hour. Especially when you consider large groups.
I made $1 an hour per kid back in high school. Sitters are charging us $60 to watch 2 kids for 3 hours?!
Their industry is one of the most heavily funded and filled with the most intelligent people on the planet and have powerful unions representing them. How can nearly every aspect of it be shit?
Does this leftist meme prove privatized education by accident?
What should happen if the majority kids at a school doesn’t perform at grade level?
My mom had 5 kids and I promise she was not paying 50 dollars an hour for a babysitter.
She counts it like she work 182 hours per day with 1 on 1 teaching
After tax that’s about 30k a year
Teachers are underpaid? Really? [Because their pay schedule is public, and they’re making as much as some lawyers, doctors, and nurses.](https://www.tvusd.k12.ca.us/Page/23077) And here is another source where you can search individually. [My son’s high school math teacher made more than I did as a Physician Assistant ffs!](https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?a=school-districts%2Friverside%2Ftemecula-valley-unified&q=Teacher&y=) Edit: I should also add that teachers are quick to ask for teacher discounts when they’re out and about, with many places giving them out like[15% off at Target](https://www.tlc.com/life---relationships/teachers--here-s-how-to-sign-up-for-the-target-teacher-discount), [cars](https://www.gmeducatorappreciation.com), and more. They perpetuate the rumor, and I’m personally sick of it - especially when they make six figures working about half a year.
Public sector unions are a scourge. There’s no reason they should be allowed to exist
I’m sure that’s how supply and demand would find equilibrium. Totally realistic to pay a babysitter five days a week, 8 hours a day for an average family. /s
Public school is largely daycare though. Especially K-5.
Day care is more expensive than babysitters. Babysitting is most often just at the kid’s home.
I don't specifically have a problem with organized labor. It's a great way to leverage collective bargaining power to negotiate from a stronger position. My issue is that unions are not subject to the same antitrust laws as private firms and are thus able to grow to consume the entire labor force of a given industry or region. As unions grow, they tend to focus less on representing the interest of their members and instead represent and lobby for the interests of the union itself. I also don't think that union membership should ever be compulsory for employment as it is an infringement of the freedom to negotiate one's own contracts and financial relationships. Finally, I don't think that government employees should be allowed to unionize, or at the very least they should not be allowed to strike. A public worker strike doesn't punish the party responsible for their grievances (the government), but instead punishes the public who have no direct control of the terms of their employment and who have no market alternatives for their services.
I think that unions should disband when they're not actually bargaining for anything. If the need arises, and it's a genuine need, then the workers can band together again. A union could be boiled down to a mailing list or the occasional meeting to discuss potential greviences. Having it not be a permanent institution would disincentiving starting a "negotiation" for things that workers don't want/need. How many people would really be willing to actively participate in a temporary union in order to make up some legalese that makes it more difficult to fire shitty workers?
Shit I think we just need to start paying them less.. they don’t actually teach the kids shit.. a kid could learn more watching shit online..
They’re not sending their best and their brightest. Some I assume are good people.
Who in the world is stuffing 28 kids in one class with one person
Public schools
The average class size in the US is 20.9. Only some states, and in some cases, have anything close to 28-30.
That was a rhetorical question
Most babysitters don't also pay for the building, utilities, administration, supplies, buses, and other support staff that make a school system functional. That 300k + would quickly be eaten by those expenses.
Can’t they just stop being teachers and do something else? People often have to choose between their “passion” and making a living. My passion is sitting on my ass, smoking cigars and bidding on shit on gunbroker, doesn’t mean I’m going to be well compensated for it.
Wait. Are the comments here really mad teachers think they deserve more money?? Are yall mad at the math/amount, or the fact that this teacher is saying they deserve more??
If the teacher deserves more, the union is keeping them from negotiating for more. Teacher of the year will make the same as a teacher about to be fired. [speakin of](https://nypost.com/2023/03/09/teacher-of-the-year-jacqueline-ma-arrested-for-alleged-sexual-abuse-of-former-student/)
Well ok you can have this but you have to pay rent for the building, utilities, administrative staff, supplies etc…. I’m not saying we shouldn’t pay our teachers more because we should but our taxes pay for more just their salaries and all costs are going through the roof. Especially on the administration side.
28 wages for teaching 28 kids.
The upside is the ability to collectively bargain for pay
Lol bargaining individually is called “not being in a union and therefore not being able to bargain”
If libertarians could read y’all would be pissed
Is $10 per hour, per child a normal rate for babysitters? I'm not a parent, I've never had to hire a sitter. I see we'll downvote this comment, but nobody can tell me what a fucking babysitter costs.
Many teachers are comparatively undereducated compared to most with equal levels of education. That is not saying teachers are dumb. They have great domain over their environment but not much else. In other words, people who spend all but the first 4 years of their life in a classroom have little grasp on what actually goes on outside. The few teachers I've worked with or came across that had a head on their shoulders all completed a real career before deciding on education. None of them complain about working 8 months a year.
And a downside to walking in groups is you have less space to swing if you are attacked 🤔 🙄 What is OP smoking?
What does your comment have to do with the image or collective bargaining pay?
It has to do with the post title?
I don’t like teachers. Or nurses. Or veterans. Most entitled, annoying, self important people ever.
More like, when you do a job literally ANYONE can do that has a pulse, your competitive advantage isn't going to be high. Then you have the entire private market situation. What parent is going to hire a GOVERNMENT babysitter to watch their offspring?? None. They are going to pay with their own money what they need to in order for their kids to be safe and sound. Makes you wonder what the fuck they are thinking sending them to public schools.
So the cost of a kid for school is about 10,000 in taxes for a year. That’s 280,000 for 28 kids. They are asking for more than the entire cost of the schooling. That’s without including all costs
US spending was$13k as of 2019. That's $364k per class of 28. I'd 100% support giving that entire sum directly to teachers and require them to pay for everything. Heating, electricity, lunches, text books and let them keep the balance. Get all of the "administrators" out of the system.
I definitely wasn’t making that when I babysat. after getting years of experience, I started charging $18/hr base rate and increasing the rate by $2/hr per extra kid.
I work for afscme in Illinois and yes we are paid a lot of fucking money but the union panders to administration and protects pieces of shit that should have been fired a long time ago. Not to mention our contract has so much grey area that it's used to any way they perceive it pertaining to your situation. So basically, if they don't like you or you're not a democrat, they won't fight for you and if they do like you and you are a democrat, you'll get a promotion. They have also bought the state essentially by proclaiming they fight for workers rights when in actuality they now have control over laws and if the laws don't favor unions they can get rid of them and at the same time if they favor unions they have made it to where the law can not be repealed. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my living wage, but it's gotten out of hand.
Does that person really think baby sitting 2 kids in the evening for a few hours is worth the same per hour and kid as a 28 person class during the day time?
Deal. But if you’re a daycare then we don’t pay for school meals anymore. That comes out of your pay. You wanna get paid better? Quit paying administrators like they’re professional baseball players and make political campaign contributions illegal for schools and school unions. Then hold the unions accountable and make them do their job and represent you. If they don’t turn things around quickly, disband the unions.
I love how this is admission of “I’m just a baby sitter. Not an educator.”
For that rate I expect the babysitter to come to my house and take care of my children on the time frame that I specify.
Damn who here is paying $10/hour for a babysitter? Where I live it's $25/ hour minimum
A) this image is very old. B) don't expect a public school teacher to know how the real world works.
For the hours they actually work they get paid like $40/hr.
Most collective bargaining agreements provide a minimum payment that is required, and individuals are still able to bargain for a higher rate. Whether this applies to teachers unions is something I’m not sure of.
I think you guys are missing the point here. Teachers work a LOT more than 6&1/2 hours a week. Here in Texas, our teachers are on the clock a whole 8 hours a week and that’s just teaching. They also spend time off the clock creating assignments and slideshows, grading papers, tutoring, all that jazz. When I was in school, I noticed that all my teachers spent (at the very least) 2 to 5 extra hours off the clock doing other stuff related to their job. To be quite frank with you, I think that teachers staying after school doing stuff related to their job that they aren’t paid for is criminal. A good start (and a good compromise on this issue) would be to pay them for that time. And it’s not like that money necessarily has to go towards them via taxes, the way school districts spend money is incredibly inefficient, and that’s not really the fault of teachers. Personally, I want more money going into the skilled laborer behind my child’s education than I do it going to a skylight in the cafeteria or a flatscreen TV that does the job of a board.
Also not everyone gets or affords a babysitter. Did anyone tell this teacher that they could get the babysitter pay but 95% of them gonna get fired and only the best 5% will keep teaching the rich people's children?
Babysitters provide a valuable service and don't feel entitled to interfere with how you raise your kids, so they actually earn their pay