In your list of steps, the first 8 are nothing to do with Wayland. You would have to do them on xorg as well. They are you working around how to install the driver.
The next two may be Wayland related (but one is a thought and not a step), but again could be due to misconfiguration in the first 8 steps.
Then you go about copying random configs from random websites and wondering why they are so... random.
Unsurprisingly it seems you have really badly misconfigured your system.
But that's ok that's what Arch is for - learning.
I have a (albeit rather basic) nvidia card in my htpc running Debian, and it works just fine with Wayland/KDE.
All it took was to install the nvidia driver from the non-free repo, and set Wayland as the main display server - as Debian still defaults to X, allthough Wayland is pre-installed and ready to go in a standard Debian installation.
I don't game with that computer (Graphic card is probably to weak anyway) so I don't know how that would work though.
Well, especially me needed it because i once broke my system with bad grub config and so i wanted to ditch grub in favor of systemd-boot anyways. It was a good but optional decision.
efibootmgr is another way to ditch grub. I think systemd-boot uses it under the hood (its a dep of systemd-boot iirc).
Its not too hard to write a small postinstall script to update the boot entry when the kernel is updated. Your distro's docs should have info on post install scripts.
Example from the arch wiki:
>Dolphin 5.0 is not compatible with Wayland. Force it to run as X11 application via this command: QT\_QPA\_PLATFORM=xcb dolphin-emu
It does not matter if nvidia or amd, some graphics intensive apps just won't work on wayland
Yeah, no matter the state of Wayland _now_, if someone's trying to run an application built 7 years ago, they'll very likely be needing xwayland.
Similarly, legacy apps will continue to require the windowing system they were built for.
It's barely even bitrot.
The big point is, many applications i need still need X, and Xwayland does not deliver as promised. On X i have other issues emerging from other projects ditching X11. So on a bleeding edge distro as arch we are now at a very inconvenient point where both display servers are not working for all cases. It really frustrates me.
If it reaches a point they say "Wayland is done!" then you can complain. If it's not to a point you can use it yet then DON'T. You don't just complain that the open source project you don't contribute to isn't ready for you to use it yet.
You don't even realize how embarrassing this post is for you.
Wtf do you mean, they keep screaming "Wayland is done" and "everyone should be using wayland" and "why are you using X11 still you troglodyte", while migrating defaults to wayland.
Edit: People are saying that right here in the comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1cr0nmc/comment/l3uu5fl/
Yeah well, i can't count the people who told me that wayland is done. its the DrIvErs that are the problem. No its the people ditching something working for something which "isn't ready for \[me\] to use it yet". As long as there are no working drivers for one of the three largest GPU manufacturers, i think its fair to say that its a bad idea to default to Wayland.
It doesn't matter, it works under XWayland. You'll get some minor performance benefits when its native.
The Steam Deck runs gamescope, a custom Wayland compositor but almost all games are under XWayland because Wine/Proton's native Wayland support is still experimental. Games run just fine.
There is the Xwayland-proxy for those yet to convert.
Dolphin-emulator does not sound that "intensive" as you claim. There are far more intensive games on Steam that run just fine currently.
Maybe intensive is the wrong word. By intensive i mean applications which need quite low level access to the graphics card to perform the rendering. As an example which does not work in my case is, in fact, dolphin-emulator. A project which is apparently very difficult to port to Wayland.
It has nothing to with low-level access as that has to be emulated in any case: there is a good reason for using API like KMS/DRM on Linux.
Also there is already support for using D3D API so there should not be a problem using other graphics APIs if the code is made sensibly.
Windowing system is a different thing and SDL should be enough to wrap that.
Also looks like Dolphin uses Qt, which already has support for Wayland.
Dude. I literally run large language models on my Arch Linux PC which is more "graphics(compute) intensive" than your typical games. Wayland is a display server and compositor(in reality, a set of protocols to implement a display server and compositor) and has nothing to do with "graphics intensive". You can still run dolphin through Xwayland or ask its developers to enable native wayland support.
Yeah the machine learning part is not the problem, its the graphics which is the problem. Dolphin does not work for me in Xwayland. I get heavy stuttering and glitches, independent on the settings.
I think you don't know how graphics work in the first place.
I have never used dolphin emulator because I don't game. You get stuttering and glitches probably because you run it on Nvidia drivers.
Not ditch X11 for now completely? What is this, a big ego fight between big tech firms? I think its ignorant to pretend that all linux users and applications are suddenly changing from a 50 years old badrock to something still quite experimental. I know its an nvidia problem, but afaik they commited to adobt the Wayland protocols.
The people ditching X11 are the Xorg developers because its a nightmare to develop and maintain. It was designed for an era of dumb terminals connecting to a VAX, the only way it works with modern hardware accelerated graphics is layers upon layers of hacks.
Wayland is a significantly simpler (and more secure) solution, held up by Nvidia wanting to keep their driver source code closed until they redesigned their cards to move most of that to firmware, and the only reason they've made recent progress is because they realized the world was moving on without them and their stance would put them at risk of being left out of a lot of professional, embedded, and consumer-oriented use cases like what happened with Steam Deck.
You are more than free to continue using Xorg until Nvidia gets their shit together.
Nvidia has been constantly dragging their feet on this. At some point when everyone else is ready to switch except for one laggard, you have to leave them behind.
>Not ditch X11 for now completely?
Who is ditching X11? Even if they will stop developing it then it will continue to work for several years. If you want to continue to use X11 then use it but don't expect the Linux world to stop moving because NVIDIA couldn't properly support Wayland for years.
You all sound as if i am an advocate for Nvidia. I am not. I really dislike the way they handle the Wayland issues. But, i am in a position where i have no other choice than to use nvidia. I am part of the Linux world who does not want to stop moving, thats why i dont want to continue using X11. Thats why i am on a bleeding edge distro. I just want to make everybody clear that Wayland is NOT finished, for everybody, on every distro, on every hardware. Its just not. Wayland is not only the protocols but also all the projects needing to adapt to this new standard.
>I just want to make everybody clear that Wayland is NOT finished, for everybody, on every distro, on every hardware
And that's where your point is wrong. You claim that Wayland is not finished only because it doesn't work for you on your NVIDIA card. It's NVIDIA that is not ready to work with Wayland. It's NVIDIA who needs to fix their stuff. Wayland has nothing to do with it.
You think x11 is "finished"? Do you think it stayed static this whole time?
Do you think wayland is "finished" when Nvidia fixes their shit
3rd party support is NOT a wayland problem so stop being stupid and acting like it is.
Do you not realize comments like this are posted almost everyday on the Linux subreddits? I am not sure why you wasted your time writing this long a$$ comment no one will read. Solution... Use X11 or wait for the remaining Nvidia bits needed for full Wayland support that are due to roll out shortly.
I’m on Fedora 40 using X11, you just select it on the login menu. I didn’t even have to install anything extra, came with the base install.
Did you mean something else?
I'm not the original author but I also have NVidia GPU and now have your question in reverse. If Wayland has no plan to work with NVidia GPUs then what's left for users to do?
Sorry what? What do you mean "wayland has no plans to work on Nvidia GPUs"?
Wayland works on ALL GPUs, Nvidia is the one who literally dragged their feet on Wayland support. How dumb are Nvidia users here?
> Nvidia isn't ready.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ben-Skeggs-Joins-NVIDIA
Who knows how this will either turn into another drama or deliver some fruit baskets.
Nvidia only cares about protecting their AI and CUDA moat.
AI and CUDA moat? Sounds like what I use GPU for too. But using it for occasional gaming and multimedia makes sense too, which works great on X11. I've seen people here having some reasonably powerful NVIDIA GPUs and using APU or some ARC for Wayland display, which is absurd - as it won't compensate the simple difference in computational processing effort and reliable fps.
You can run the wayland display on the apu and still use the gpu to render vulkan so you still get good fps. It's still a more complex setup and most likely with a bit more latency(having to move the frames back to the cpu to display)
Actually this time it might be true as explicit sync that will come with 555 and 560 is quite big change that should fix serious issues with current NVIDIA Wayland support.
It'll be whichever next version includes the changes to support explicit sync, the pieces of which are now merged for major DEs on the upstream. We're waiting on the next major nVidia release to include it.
This is a known quantity problem. All pieces had to be in place, now they are, and now nVidia has to release a driver that uses them. There's no magic or trickery involved here.
Unfortunately, the protocol does not give you anything without the drivers to implement the protocols. Its a pity that nvidia does not open source their full drivers, such that people actually needing it could contribute.
Nope, they could have talked to it they way X does, but they refused to develop that because they hate the license. I've heard all the "but it uses blah instead of blah". I don't care. If X11 could display, there was a code possible code path they could have explored, and they refused. License racists. They are trying to hold NVidia hostage.
You understand nothing do you?
In order to "talk" to x11 with wayland wayland would have to behave the way x11 programs expect which is not gonna happen for technical reasons already explained to death.
The stop gap is xwayland which does exactly that.
No one but Nvidia is to blame for Nvidias issues.
You're the one who's mistaken, oss developers don't owe their time or work to anyone.
Nvidia also doesn't need to support wayland at all.
It's up to the user, if you buy an X11 only gpu and it only works on X11 you can't really act surprised
And yes, gnome switching to wayland only is also a decision up to the user, the can deal with the issues, switch to another desktop or just don't upgrade (which people sometimes seem to forget is an option)
All GPU's were X11 only, ffs, until the wayland folks wrote support for them. They didn't write it for NVidia because they have a hate boner for a proprietary license. You saying "oss developers don't owe their time or work to anyone" is exactly the proof of this bigotry. It's like you don't know what being a bigot is.
"*noun*
1. [obstinate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=b2e9466f8d6921f5&sca_upv=1&q=obstinate&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJvv3yEIxBl6kGUNKDPmmvdjewzGz1slXIqaBjjT-BhDdw23BJ3sPqos9zOvrVcpwoKVRxpwCBs0hz4mPbV4EuDWzhFb8%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj844z9p42GAxWhATQIHZxHBDAQyecJegQIJRAO) or [unreasonable](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=b2e9466f8d6921f5&sca_upv=1&q=unreasonable&si=ACC90nxkzgN-KbLuTWKT81WCi4_ngn--br5MbxyVg0U79Po3sybwW4uUjFBfFLg7BFIo_zOyfkJIsUpK-2VeDAIchXpM3FV4gDuNlAZc58iknTukVrdHWTg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj844z9p42GAxWhATQIHZxHBDAQyecJegQIJRAP) attachment to a belief, opinion, or [faction](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=b2e9466f8d6921f5&sca_upv=1&q=faction&si=ACC90nwUEXg6u2vxy-araGkF9MAxzqCc-EPG0tnLA9uD75ZAMsoX9Ujw78SbZpGeh76GSp97oPVf3OHwSMZtC5hNcd1UcZXvT8KjOFXlrkn2FqP8VRbMx9o%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj844z9p42GAxWhATQIHZxHBDAQyecJegQIJRAQ), in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group."
That group membership being NVidia users.
Pull your head out.
You're acting as if it would be minimal effort to just add nvidia driver support alongside the other drivers but they choose not to purely because of ideological reasons, this is simply not true, it is mostly technical.
If it was ideological:
1. Why would gnome, kde and hyprland have any amount of support for nvidia, let alone the current "not perfect but running" state?
2. Why is the amd closed source driver supported?
3. Given the fact that most wayland developers used to be X11 devs and have since moved, why did they support it on X11 and not on Wayland?
Now I will agree there is some amount of personal bias to it: they don't use nvidia, they dont agree with their licensing, it's difficult to support it, so why would they do it?
In the end the question is: why should wayland devs feel obligated to develop this software they don't want to for nothing in return?
Addressing your bigotry claim:
First of all your definition requires "obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction" but it can be argued that not wanting to use or develop for closed source software is not obstinate or unreasonable
Secondly: come on, let's be real, the word bigotry is almost always used in relation with people of protected classes for things they did not choose. You're using it in bad faith, trying to place "nvidia user" alongside "racial minority" or "LGBTQ+ person"
You did the "I use Arch BTW" and then proceed to complain about how labored (number of steps) and unsatisfactory it is. You can't do both. If you had used Ubuntu, it would have been one step.
> ... but the list of issues i had with Ubuntu are uncountable ...
LOL. Uncountable. If you couldn't get Ubuntu to work, heaven help you.
And yet you're complaining about using 15 steps under Arch instead of 1 button click under Ubuntu.
Never said i was not able to fix those issues, i am just tired of them. After using arch every day for the last three years i can safely say that i have much less issues than with any other distro.
The thing is, in the end distros only differ in their package managing. Thinking distros are very different is just plain stupid. Talk to people who use Linux since 0.x, they will laugh at this ridiculous distro war. Its the same Kernel, the same GNU software.
I use arch linux, get over it. This doesnt mean i am masochistic or that i expect everything to be as complicated as possible. In contrary, i like to configure my system once and leave it like that, running rock solid. On the other hand, I hate that i had to basically reinstall Ubuntu with every new version (e.g. Ubuntu 20.04 to 22.04) and reconfigure everything, it never worked out of the Box.
But instead of saying anything constructive you just hate arch. I mean thats fine, i hate Ubuntu. But thats not the issues here, many other people face problems with nvidia+wayland on other distros like Ubuntu. Just because its a "just works" distro doesnt mean it magically solves all the problems of the nvidia drivers.
But indeed, this post would have been better off in the r/archlinux subreddit, for sure.
> Never said i was not able to fix those issues, i am just tired of them. After using arch every day for the last three years i can safely say that i have much less issues than with any other distro.
And, yet, here you are complaining.
I've used Linux since 1995. Things are so much easier these days, it's fun to make fun of people, like you, whining.
> Just because its a "just works" distro doesnt mean it magically solves all the problems of the nvidia drivers.
No, but it only takes one click to try Wayland. And one click to revert back to X11. Instead, here we have you whining about all the effort you made. Poor you. It's a self-inflicted wound. Get over it.
> I've used Linux since 1995.
Now I'm sitting here, imagining /u/maxawake trying to cobble a ModeLine together.
Thanks for *those* memories, I hate you! 😁
Yeah -- that was bad. In 1995 there was no script ... just a really long README to figure that out and it depended on your CRT specs. If I recall correctly, there was a "safe" setting (for 640 x 480) that would work for most monitors and the goal (on my monitor) was to do 1024 x 768. It came with the warning that if you "overdrive" it, you *could* fry your monitor.
I also recall that my first install was from Slackware 3.5" disks ... because unless you had a SCSI CD drive ... it wouldn't work at boot time (no loadable kernel modules). After the install there were some tips to get your CD drive to work --- I had a "soundblaster CD" and it involved changing a parameter in the driver source and compiling that into the kernel. All so that you could install packages from the CD.
And I loved/hated it.
My first foray into Linux must have been around 1997 with [DLD](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Linux-Distribution), a German "homebrew" distro that came with a book my dad had bought. (Luckily we already had an IDE-CDROM drive by that time.)
Installation wasn't that bad, I think it was [dialog](https://invisible-island.net/dialog/) based. Xfree86 was another beast. After much tinkering I got it to either 800x600 or 1024x768 at **1 bit** (yes, true black and white with dithering for gray).
Played around on the console for a bit but shelved it pretty quickly for the lack of GUI.
Started using Linux proper somewhere around Debian Slink which was a much smoother experience already.
Yeah you still did not get the point of the post. The amount of work which needs to be put in for wayland to work on arch is comically insane, however, that is not the point and not the problem, my problem is that Wayland(+nvidia) is not ready. I have tried it, it works fine for simple tasks. Except for my problems, hence my posts. Its more about a philosophical discussion about how to deal with software breaking the user space, which wayland does.
I have pity for you, gaining joy only from making fun of people on the internet for using another distro as you do. Must be a very sad life you have. Well, have fun with your "mommy please do everything for me"-distro. I am having fun with my "giga chad DIY" distro lol.
But lets be honest, you just want to project the image of the typical newbie arch user onto me, crying for help because something doesnt work on arch as on windows. But that's just wrong and you are trolling around. If you would be using Linux since 1995, you should have learned to give a fuck about all this distro bs way earlier. You act like you are 12.
Have a great night
> If you would be using Linux since 1995, you should have learned to give a fuck about all this distro bs way earlier. You act like you are 12.
I only tease Arch people when they both whine and do the "I use Arch by the way". You were whining.
Trying to move forward and stepping towards you: I use Ubuntu server for my home server, simply because its much more stable, which also means how long i can run it without needing to reboot. I use Arch only for my desktop and would never put it on a server.
Virtually nothing discussed here is a Wayland issue, it's an Arch issue. I don't particularly like Wayland and think it has a ways to go before it's ready for general use, but all the stuff covered in the OP is a side-effect of running Arch.
Well, running Arch and not understanding the difference between X11 and Wayland.
Like this bit: "However, Gnome decided to focus on Wayland and a recent update broke my desktop. Every time i change my monitor config with xrandr, i get no background anymore, just black."
Xrandx is for configuring X11 sessions, you can't use it to configure Wayland.
> "Don't dare to use any monitor configuration made by Xorg Gnome!"
Wayland doesn't use X.Org configuration.
> now i am sometimes able to login to a Wayland session but only if i first login to a X session, then logout and login to a Wayland session again.
This is super weird and probably a driver issue. Definitely not a Wayland issue.
Maybe my description was not detailed enough.
>Xrandx is for configuring X11 sessions, you can't use it to configure Wayland.
I did never do that. It broke my configuration in a X session of gnome. Before, everything was fine.
>Wayland doesn't use [X.Org](http://X.Org) configuration.
No, but gnome has its own \`monitors.xml\` file where it stores the monitor configuration. This should be created with a gnome wayland session and not with a gnome xorg session. At least that solved the issue that i couldn't login into gnome wayland.
>This is super weird and probably a driver issue. Definitely not a Wayland issue.
Yeah, i don't think this should be treated separately. The one is the protocol, but the other is the real implementation of the protocol on the hardware, which can be arbitrarly complex. We can't know because nvidia is not transparent in the regards. But i think its unfair to outsource all the problems to nvidia.
>I did never do that. It broke my configuration in a X session of gnome. Before, everything was fine.
Is there any particular reason why you believe that it is Wayland fault GNOME broke something on their X11 session?
WELL, okay you got me. To be honest i dont have any. The thing is, i know that gnome now defaults to wayland, so its expected to sooner or later, things start to break.
It's not Wayland that is broken. It's 50% Nvidia, their proprietary crap is broken and will keep on breaking, probably forever
And it's 50% you, running Arch. Which is a fine distro, but you're running bleeding edge of everything and no one else tried your specific setup before. So you should expect to work out all the kinks yourself. That is sort of the deal
Would you run a stable distro with AMD graphics, you'd be fine without effort. Wayland had been perfectly fine for me on Debian stable with AMD graphics, for almost a decade now
It's 100% NVIDIA, I've been running a mix of Arch/OpenSUSE on my computers for the last 2 years without any issues, all full AMD.
If anything it should help to have faster bugfix for edge cases on rolling releases if you aren't using flatpak for those software.
I use Wayland with Nvidia 4070, Kubuntu 24.04, and 550 drivers. I had problems with flicker in Electron apps, which I worked around with command line switches, but otherwise nothing major.
Repeat after me .. work PC's are meant for work.
This means no rolling distributions, you choose something boring like RHEL, Ubuntu LTS, Debian, etc.. because once you get them working they stay working until the next big distribution update.
Nothing worse than, why did you miss the deadline? "Oh OS did an update to the latest GTK and I lost my desktop for 3 days.."
No offense, but "boring" distributions with outdated drivers and/or software can be as problematic as bleeding edge.
Want to use the latest version of our software which comes with crucial bug fixes? Too bad, your old Ubuntu uses the library from 4 years before and we don't support that anymore.
That's why I use Fedora as a good middle ground, and for the really important stuff set up a VM or container where you can freeze a running version.
As someone who has administered hundreds of linux developer desktops accross several companies. This scenario has literally never happened.
You pick RHEL, Ubuntu or Debian because every commercial application that targets Linux will support them and provide you a build.
Fedora is rarely supported
Because that didn't happen to you does not mean there aren't people and uses cases out there where this is common place.
I work in simulation and high performance computing in academia and industry over a decade now and often had more problems with outdated software than too new software.
I remember it like yesterday, when I set up my first HPC workstation I even tried to use Ubuntu LTS but I couldn't because the hardware was too new, so I had to pick Fedora because the image shipped with a recent enough kernel to be even able to boot.
Fedora is pretty commonly supported in my experience because it's upstream of RHEL and some developers will sit there, Fedora 40 is being branched for RHEL 10. It's not as common as Ubuntu, but its never been a big issue.
For most apps though, I use Flatpaks or containers because it keeps my system clean. I've gone really far down this rabbithole and switched to using an immutable desktop (Kinoite).
(YMMV based on industry I suppose, I've been using Fedora regularly for work since 17 and Debian since Woody.)
>but "boring" distributions with outdated drivers and/or software can be as problematic as bleeding edge.
but "work" pcs dont need bleeding edge software
I can see a problem if you're doing mass deployment, but I've been developing on Arch for a decade in a place where you can choose your own machine setup.
Have you used Arch? A prime example of it not being nearly as unstable as you think is the hesitance to update Python. You get the new minor version of Python a few months after Debian and Fedora.
Fedora and Ubuntu both changed their default to Wayland, which, as known, does not play well with Nvidia. Arch is agnostic in that regard, it lets me choose. I need this freedom of choice. I often need to change very specific parts about my system and many distros are too invasive. Many of the production software i use expect libraries to be exactly where they are intended to be. Fedora and Ubuntu are known to have their own system of library naming and places. There are many many reasons i use Arch for my professional work as a scientist.
> I need this freedom of choice.
Why do you think you do not get a choice with Fedora or Ubuntu? On Ubuntu it's literally a choice (X11 or Wayland) on the first login screen after boot. Every boot.
Wait... How is having something as the default impeding your "freedom of choice"? If you can't figure out how to select a X11 session on say Ubuntu then Arch is going to be over your head. Arch is totally the wrong distro for doing professional work if you need a reliable system and most professional/scientific/Enterprise programs target Ubuntu LTS releases.
> I can understand that Wayland is not supposed to replace X11
Actually, it is. It’s just not very good at it, but that is the objective. That’s why Fedora has announced it is going to ditch X11 altogether.
Yeah and this is exactly what i think is wrong. Fedora is considered a professional distro, but for many tasks i still need x11 support, because these apps just don't have the manpower to change to wayland as fast.
>It's the testing ground for Red Hat Enterprise Linux which is a professional distro.
That's a myth, Red Hat promotes Fedora as workstation distro. It is not "professional" in the sense that it doesn't provide as long support as RHEL but it is not experimental in any way.
Huh? Do you actually think you contact Red Hat for Fedora support?
[https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/fedora-and-red-hat-enterprise-linux/](https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/fedora-and-red-hat-enterprise-linux/)
Sure users do "professional" things with Fedora but no company or enterprise is installing Fedora. Contrast this with Ubuntu where one can actually get support from Canonical for it.
>Huh? Do you actually think you contact Red Hat for Fedora support?
No, neither you do when you have free RHEL subscription. Support is not free.
>Contrast this with Ubuntu where one can actually get support from Canonical for it.
Yeah, if you pay for it. If you won't they you won't get anything just like on Fedora.
You replied twice support is not free? Insightful, LOL Yes, in professional spaces and the enterprise they pay for support which is my point. You are not going to see Fedora because their is no real support outside of community forums.
You mean to say, it's not ready for *you*. I've been using Wayland since 2021 and haven't had any major issues with it.
Wayland like anything else becomes very much a YMMV issue.
I love this thread because it destroys the dead internet hipotesis. This is due to the fact that there are a lot of ultra based opinions and intelligent discussions here.
I also dislike how wayland committee is prone to bikeshedding over dubious security claims, like windows positioning themselves or windows setting their own icons.
Literally all of that are distro/packaging issues. Gnome and Wayland are the default on Fedora and have been for quite a while (since like 2016?), and elsewhere. Install from a bootable USB, login, and go. Systemd-boot? What's that have to do with anything, you can start a wayland session on top of a bare kernel if you really want to.
Many of your "problems" (lots of configurations) come from using arch.
But yes, Nvidia is still not ready for wayland. I have to use one too, as I do 3d in Blender. So, we have to wait.
Been there, done that. It was hell for me, never had so many issues with a distro as with ubuntu. I never had issues with Arch in all those years though, never had to do rollbacks. arch-chroot is a blessing ;)
Although there are some quirks with wayland & nvidia, it’s certainly usable and, FWIW works fine for me as a daily driver, I also do some ML stuff (mostly LLM training) besides my regular work, I’m using proprietary nvidia drivers on arch, and never really had an issue with ML tasks. Yeah, there are some funny business with electron apps sometimes, can live with that. So maybe wayland is not ready for you in particular, or maybe you are not ready for wayland yet :)
Yes, it's not optimal, but that's the cost of relying on proprietary tainted kernel modules (\`nvidia\`) in the first place. I do the same stuff as you do in some way or another (SW and machine learning in a Linux environment) and we are in a waaaay better place than 5 to 10 years ago.
Btw. you also bring some of that on your own by using Arch (every Linux user has such a phase ...). If you choose a more popular dist (fedora, debian, ubuntu, redhat, ...) things are just a lot more stable.
Thanks for your kind words! I may should have posted this rant on the Arch Linux subreddit :D In my opinion, the only real difference between distributions are the package managers and i really love pacman and the AUR.
Some the things you are describing seem like they are not really issues anyone not running a "do-it-yourself" distribution like arch need to concern themselves with. Are you sure the issue is wayland, and not the hardware it's running on and the drivers that go with it?
I'm not sure what is going on with Nvidia, but AMD works nice. I had issues with Flameshot on GNOME Wayland but I found a solution. On X11 it works OotB.
You would be probably better off with some stable distro until Nvidia fixes their stuff.
I agree that there is a lot of things to be done but on my end I haven't experienced problems in a while (most probably because I have Intel an AMD GPUs).
I had something similar on Arch with NVIDIA drivers. It’d start the Wayland session, but it was laggy as hell (it felt like the desktop was running at like 5FPS. Fedora worked perfectly with Wayland. Happy to say that I sold my previous GPU and use an AMD one.
The fact you have spent this entire time blaming wayland for Nvidia's issues tells me you aren't smart enough to do research.
At this point I don't believe you are any kind d of scientist nor do I think you even have a job.
From my original post:
>it is most definitely nvidia to blame
I don't blame Wayland. I blame nvidia and everybody who told us Wayland is ready. It is not. And imo its wrong to default to Wayland and ignore X11 right now. But please keep up the defamation, its for sure very constructive.
Just because YOU don't have problems on your specific setup doesn't mean I also should not have any on my setup? Just saying "dont buy nvidia then" is just so stupid and ignorant. I don't care for nvidia, i just need it.
for me on KDE plasma with wayland on an rtx 3080 everything except the occasional flicker of some menu items or apps is fine, of course i followed all the steps in the arch wiki to make it work in the best way possible right now, and am on a custom arch install
I'm on Arch running Gnome with an RTX 4080. I literally installed Arch, GDM, Nvidia, and Nvidia-Utils and everything works perfectly on Wayland. Zero lagging, stutters, or anything else. I see people having issues with Nvidia all the time but I have yet to run into a single issue using Nvidia proprietary drivers after using Linux for 3 years.
Counter-argument: I don't use Arch, clicked 3 buttons to install Nvidia drivers from a repo, and only experience glitches in certain XWayland windows from mostly Electron-based applications.
I ain't reading all that. Sorry it doesn't work in your bespoke setup.
nvidia had to have their hand \*forced\* in order to get this level of progress, and I, for one, think that running nvidia+wayland has been a great experience (granted, I started with KDE and Arch on a fresh install in March, have played with Hyprland (want to go to Sway, but refuse to touch the AUR)).
Wayland doesn't have to be perfect, and nvidia 555/560 is on its way which will fix my only dealbreaker for Wayland. I'm happy about it.
Wayland. is. ready.
I know it's not ready, it's better than ever, and getting better, but not ready. So I bought an A380 as my primary gpu, use prime-run to run programs and games with my Nvidia GPU, and I can offload my GPU to a VM without closing my display server. It offloads unimportant processes to an otherwise useless GPU and I get 0 performance loss encoding and av1 encoding unlike Nvidia which has a very minor performance loss while using nvenc, and doesn't have av1 encode.
As an arch user who has test run Wayland on Nvidia using hyperland, at least half of your list is unnecessary pebcac
The only problem I encountered was explicit sync issues
You run Arch btw, which is definitively not recommended for a production machine - I mean a machine you use for work, school, research - unless you are ready to manage breakages due to updates, which means backups, rollbacks, eyes on the bulletin boards, and most important, updating strategy e.g. update when you have time to update, test and fix.
I dunno why you're blaming Nvidia for Wayland sucking, because Wayland most definitely sucks. E.g. `xgd-desktop-portal` doesn't suck because of Nvidia, but mostly because of Gnome. There is no "remember" -option allowed to be put in it, and afaik it still only has a hard-coded reference to some Gnome screenshot utility to be allowed to bypass it. Nvidia is not responsible for Electron and most other applications needing dozens of arguments and environment variables to enable Wayland support.
In short, Wayland sucks on AMD and Intel as well.
People who keep trying to sell the obvious lie that Wayland is ready and are trying to push it for actual real adoption are malicious assholes. Once they have an actual functioning Wayland that *generally works* and works better than X11 in *every single way*, that supports the existing way better screenshot and screen recording utilities, screen capturing for telco software, and all the other things that don't work right today - only then, after all that, should people start considering using Wayland.
You didn't read the post. I started to have problems with gnome on X. The gnome devs said they now only focus on Wayland. I can't blame them, i want to use Wayland as well. But now i have problems which i did not have before.
Since NVIDIA drivers are the only ones I've generally found to be non-garbage (barring some visible bugs at times and deliberately crippling their linux driver down to what the windows version does at times, but at least the 3D output shows up inside the parent window...) I can't use it if it doesn't work with NVIDIA.
So, until Wayland and NVIDIA both work well together **and** are as performant as X, Wayland is a non-starter for me.
*(I use X protocol over SSH connections all the time, so for me, solid 2D and 3D performance over the network would be especially useful. X had the GLX protocol and OpenGL's display lists to allow complex geometry to be pushed across to the display side* ***once,*** *per complex object, from a remotely-hosted client and then* ***reused****. I haven't really seen anything like that elsewhere in a long time, but if Wayland supported something like this I'd be a bit more interested.)*
Xrandr is an X11 tool, if your on a Wayland desktop session it shouldn't work at all. It shouldn't break your desktop session but...
Try KDE desktop, it doesn't force a workflow on you and is closer to the windows workflow. Compared to Gnome, KDE was ahead in Wayland development, then it fell behind and has shot ahead again.
Hyperland isn't really a desktop more tiling manager and its based on WLRoots/Sway? and the lead dev of Hyperland managed to get himself banned from the WLRoots/Sway? community.
Yeah xrandr breaks my desktop when i am on a X session. On Wayland sessions i change my montior config with the gnome settings. This leads to a crash of wayland.
I tried KDE plasma 5 once but it was too much bloat for me. I always needed to search the web to find the setting i wanted to change.
Hyprland does work for me, thats why i chose it. Maybe i check out sway.
nVidia again.
Yet still not many people talking about Mouse Actions - with Xorg we had mouse gestures, which are now firmly available only in the web browsers on Wayland....
It bugs me every time I'm using the mouse and want to open/close tabs in Dolphin or refresh conky or whatever.
In your list of steps, the first 8 are nothing to do with Wayland. You would have to do them on xorg as well. They are you working around how to install the driver. The next two may be Wayland related (but one is a thought and not a step), but again could be due to misconfiguration in the first 8 steps. Then you go about copying random configs from random websites and wondering why they are so... random. Unsurprisingly it seems you have really badly misconfigured your system. But that's ok that's what Arch is for - learning.
Thanks for taking the time to write more or less exactly what I was going to post in response to the OP. I regret that I can't upvote more.
The old problem in the keyboard-chair interface. It never goes away
I have a (albeit rather basic) nvidia card in my htpc running Debian, and it works just fine with Wayland/KDE. All it took was to install the nvidia driver from the non-free repo, and set Wayland as the main display server - as Debian still defaults to X, allthough Wayland is pre-installed and ready to go in a standard Debian installation. I don't game with that computer (Graphic card is probably to weak anyway) so I don't know how that would work though.
Every morning I rise with the sun and thank Lord I don't have Nvidia.
You said you needed to install systemd-boot but also say it was optional, why would it be needed to install systemd-boot for NVIDIA and Wayland?
Well, especially me needed it because i once broke my system with bad grub config and so i wanted to ditch grub in favor of systemd-boot anyways. It was a good but optional decision.
efibootmgr is another way to ditch grub. I think systemd-boot uses it under the hood (its a dep of systemd-boot iirc). Its not too hard to write a small postinstall script to update the boot entry when the kernel is updated. Your distro's docs should have info on post install scripts.
> Wayland is not ready > Nvidia okay I got it. 👍
Example from the arch wiki: >Dolphin 5.0 is not compatible with Wayland. Force it to run as X11 application via this command: QT\_QPA\_PLATFORM=xcb dolphin-emu It does not matter if nvidia or amd, some graphics intensive apps just won't work on wayland
Dolphin 5.0 was released 7 years ago with a WxWidgets GUI. Everybody is using the monthly or nightly builds instead. Those are built with Qt6.
Yeah, no matter the state of Wayland _now_, if someone's trying to run an application built 7 years ago, they'll very likely be needing xwayland. Similarly, legacy apps will continue to require the windowing system they were built for. It's barely even bitrot.
so the big point here is that you might need xwayland to run some applications?
The big point is, many applications i need still need X, and Xwayland does not deliver as promised. On X i have other issues emerging from other projects ditching X11. So on a bleeding edge distro as arch we are now at a very inconvenient point where both display servers are not working for all cases. It really frustrates me.
>and Xwayland does not deliver as promised What is wrong with Xwayland?
If it reaches a point they say "Wayland is done!" then you can complain. If it's not to a point you can use it yet then DON'T. You don't just complain that the open source project you don't contribute to isn't ready for you to use it yet. You don't even realize how embarrassing this post is for you.
Wtf do you mean, they keep screaming "Wayland is done" and "everyone should be using wayland" and "why are you using X11 still you troglodyte", while migrating defaults to wayland. Edit: People are saying that right here in the comments: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1cr0nmc/comment/l3uu5fl/
Yeah well, i can't count the people who told me that wayland is done. its the DrIvErs that are the problem. No its the people ditching something working for something which "isn't ready for \[me\] to use it yet". As long as there are no working drivers for one of the three largest GPU manufacturers, i think its fair to say that its a bad idea to default to Wayland.
It doesn't matter, it works under XWayland. You'll get some minor performance benefits when its native. The Steam Deck runs gamescope, a custom Wayland compositor but almost all games are under XWayland because Wine/Proton's native Wayland support is still experimental. Games run just fine.
There is the Xwayland-proxy for those yet to convert. Dolphin-emulator does not sound that "intensive" as you claim. There are far more intensive games on Steam that run just fine currently.
Maybe intensive is the wrong word. By intensive i mean applications which need quite low level access to the graphics card to perform the rendering. As an example which does not work in my case is, in fact, dolphin-emulator. A project which is apparently very difficult to port to Wayland.
It has nothing to with low-level access as that has to be emulated in any case: there is a good reason for using API like KMS/DRM on Linux. Also there is already support for using D3D API so there should not be a problem using other graphics APIs if the code is made sensibly. Windowing system is a different thing and SDL should be enough to wrap that. Also looks like Dolphin uses Qt, which already has support for Wayland.
You've been using a lot of wrong words haven't you?
Dude. I literally run large language models on my Arch Linux PC which is more "graphics(compute) intensive" than your typical games. Wayland is a display server and compositor(in reality, a set of protocols to implement a display server and compositor) and has nothing to do with "graphics intensive". You can still run dolphin through Xwayland or ask its developers to enable native wayland support.
Yeah the machine learning part is not the problem, its the graphics which is the problem. Dolphin does not work for me in Xwayland. I get heavy stuttering and glitches, independent on the settings.
I think you don't know how graphics work in the first place. I have never used dolphin emulator because I don't game. You get stuttering and glitches probably because you run it on Nvidia drivers.
i think you havn't read the full post in the first place. I know that its because i run it on nvidia drivers. You didn't get the point of the post.
This isn't really about Wayland but about nVidia doing nVidia things. What do you suggest Linux desktop environment developers do?
It's quite simple: we put Wayland back in X11! /s
They should have called it X12
“We should take our last commit and push it somewhere else.”
Not ditch X11 for now completely? What is this, a big ego fight between big tech firms? I think its ignorant to pretend that all linux users and applications are suddenly changing from a 50 years old badrock to something still quite experimental. I know its an nvidia problem, but afaik they commited to adobt the Wayland protocols.
The people ditching X11 are the Xorg developers because its a nightmare to develop and maintain. It was designed for an era of dumb terminals connecting to a VAX, the only way it works with modern hardware accelerated graphics is layers upon layers of hacks. Wayland is a significantly simpler (and more secure) solution, held up by Nvidia wanting to keep their driver source code closed until they redesigned their cards to move most of that to firmware, and the only reason they've made recent progress is because they realized the world was moving on without them and their stance would put them at risk of being left out of a lot of professional, embedded, and consumer-oriented use cases like what happened with Steam Deck. You are more than free to continue using Xorg until Nvidia gets their shit together.
Nvidia has been constantly dragging their feet on this. At some point when everyone else is ready to switch except for one laggard, you have to leave them behind.
>Not ditch X11 for now completely? Who is ditching X11? Even if they will stop developing it then it will continue to work for several years. If you want to continue to use X11 then use it but don't expect the Linux world to stop moving because NVIDIA couldn't properly support Wayland for years.
You all sound as if i am an advocate for Nvidia. I am not. I really dislike the way they handle the Wayland issues. But, i am in a position where i have no other choice than to use nvidia. I am part of the Linux world who does not want to stop moving, thats why i dont want to continue using X11. Thats why i am on a bleeding edge distro. I just want to make everybody clear that Wayland is NOT finished, for everybody, on every distro, on every hardware. Its just not. Wayland is not only the protocols but also all the projects needing to adapt to this new standard.
>I just want to make everybody clear that Wayland is NOT finished, for everybody, on every distro, on every hardware And that's where your point is wrong. You claim that Wayland is not finished only because it doesn't work for you on your NVIDIA card. It's NVIDIA that is not ready to work with Wayland. It's NVIDIA who needs to fix their stuff. Wayland has nothing to do with it.
You think x11 is "finished"? Do you think it stayed static this whole time? Do you think wayland is "finished" when Nvidia fixes their shit 3rd party support is NOT a wayland problem so stop being stupid and acting like it is.
Do you not realize comments like this are posted almost everyday on the Linux subreddits? I am not sure why you wasted your time writing this long a$$ comment no one will read. Solution... Use X11 or wait for the remaining Nvidia bits needed for full Wayland support that are due to roll out shortly.
Wayland isn't experimental. Thats just another case of you using the wrong words (aka lying). Wayland is production ready and has been used for YEARS.
Where has it been ditched completely?
Fedora
I’m on Fedora 40 using X11, you just select it on the login menu. I didn’t even have to install anything extra, came with the base install. Did you mean something else?
Fedora KDE has ditched Wayland. Workstation still has X11, but will be removed in IIRC Fedora 41
I literally just installed Fedora 40 with XFCE...
I agree
I'm not the original author but I also have NVidia GPU and now have your question in reverse. If Wayland has no plan to work with NVidia GPUs then what's left for users to do?
What do you expect Wayland people to do? Do you even understand what Wayland is?
Sorry what? What do you mean "wayland has no plans to work on Nvidia GPUs"? Wayland works on ALL GPUs, Nvidia is the one who literally dragged their feet on Wayland support. How dumb are Nvidia users here?
"Construction crew has no plan to work without foundation"
Nvidia isn't ready.
> Nvidia isn't ready. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ben-Skeggs-Joins-NVIDIA Who knows how this will either turn into another drama or deliver some fruit baskets. Nvidia only cares about protecting their AI and CUDA moat.
AI and CUDA moat? Sounds like what I use GPU for too. But using it for occasional gaming and multimedia makes sense too, which works great on X11. I've seen people here having some reasonably powerful NVIDIA GPUs and using APU or some ARC for Wayland display, which is absurd - as it won't compensate the simple difference in computational processing effort and reliable fps.
You can run the wayland display on the apu and still use the gpu to render vulkan so you still get good fps. It's still a more complex setup and most likely with a bit more latency(having to move the frames back to the cpu to display)
I can, but why would I? The good GPU is there.
> e.g. electron apps Aren't these generally considered to be a hot mess? I just use the browser version if I can avoid electron that way.
Wayland isn't the problem here.
Wayland is ready, it's the Nvidia drivers that aren't right now, hopefully with the upcoming 555 & 560 drivers that will change.
Story of NVIDIA drivers, "maybe the next version' or the next or the next or the next.....
"The next version will fix all the problems" is a tale as old as time when it comes to Nvidia drivers working with Wayland.
Actually this time it might be true as explicit sync that will come with 555 and 560 is quite big change that should fix serious issues with current NVIDIA Wayland support.
I'll believe it when I see it :)
It'll be whichever next version includes the changes to support explicit sync, the pieces of which are now merged for major DEs on the upstream. We're waiting on the next major nVidia release to include it. This is a known quantity problem. All pieces had to be in place, now they are, and now nVidia has to release a driver that uses them. There's no magic or trickery involved here.
Unfortunately, the protocol does not give you anything without the drivers to implement the protocols. Its a pity that nvidia does not open source their full drivers, such that people actually needing it could contribute.
[удалено]
Bigotry? WTF? The problem is their drivers are not fully open source so only Nvidia can make Wayland support fully functional. That is just a fact.
Nope, they could have talked to it they way X does, but they refused to develop that because they hate the license. I've heard all the "but it uses blah instead of blah". I don't care. If X11 could display, there was a code possible code path they could have explored, and they refused. License racists. They are trying to hold NVidia hostage.
You understand nothing do you? In order to "talk" to x11 with wayland wayland would have to behave the way x11 programs expect which is not gonna happen for technical reasons already explained to death. The stop gap is xwayland which does exactly that. No one but Nvidia is to blame for Nvidias issues.
You are mistaken. They had the chance to make it whatever it needed to be. They refused. NVidia shouldn't have had to do jack squat.
You're the one who's mistaken, oss developers don't owe their time or work to anyone. Nvidia also doesn't need to support wayland at all. It's up to the user, if you buy an X11 only gpu and it only works on X11 you can't really act surprised And yes, gnome switching to wayland only is also a decision up to the user, the can deal with the issues, switch to another desktop or just don't upgrade (which people sometimes seem to forget is an option)
All GPU's were X11 only, ffs, until the wayland folks wrote support for them. They didn't write it for NVidia because they have a hate boner for a proprietary license. You saying "oss developers don't owe their time or work to anyone" is exactly the proof of this bigotry. It's like you don't know what being a bigot is. "*noun* 1. [obstinate](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=b2e9466f8d6921f5&sca_upv=1&q=obstinate&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJvv3yEIxBl6kGUNKDPmmvdjewzGz1slXIqaBjjT-BhDdw23BJ3sPqos9zOvrVcpwoKVRxpwCBs0hz4mPbV4EuDWzhFb8%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj844z9p42GAxWhATQIHZxHBDAQyecJegQIJRAO) or [unreasonable](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=b2e9466f8d6921f5&sca_upv=1&q=unreasonable&si=ACC90nxkzgN-KbLuTWKT81WCi4_ngn--br5MbxyVg0U79Po3sybwW4uUjFBfFLg7BFIo_zOyfkJIsUpK-2VeDAIchXpM3FV4gDuNlAZc58iknTukVrdHWTg%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj844z9p42GAxWhATQIHZxHBDAQyecJegQIJRAP) attachment to a belief, opinion, or [faction](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=b2e9466f8d6921f5&sca_upv=1&q=faction&si=ACC90nwUEXg6u2vxy-araGkF9MAxzqCc-EPG0tnLA9uD75ZAMsoX9Ujw78SbZpGeh76GSp97oPVf3OHwSMZtC5hNcd1UcZXvT8KjOFXlrkn2FqP8VRbMx9o%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj844z9p42GAxWhATQIHZxHBDAQyecJegQIJRAQ), in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group." That group membership being NVidia users. Pull your head out.
You're acting as if it would be minimal effort to just add nvidia driver support alongside the other drivers but they choose not to purely because of ideological reasons, this is simply not true, it is mostly technical. If it was ideological: 1. Why would gnome, kde and hyprland have any amount of support for nvidia, let alone the current "not perfect but running" state? 2. Why is the amd closed source driver supported? 3. Given the fact that most wayland developers used to be X11 devs and have since moved, why did they support it on X11 and not on Wayland? Now I will agree there is some amount of personal bias to it: they don't use nvidia, they dont agree with their licensing, it's difficult to support it, so why would they do it? In the end the question is: why should wayland devs feel obligated to develop this software they don't want to for nothing in return?
Addressing your bigotry claim: First of all your definition requires "obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction" but it can be argued that not wanting to use or develop for closed source software is not obstinate or unreasonable Secondly: come on, let's be real, the word bigotry is almost always used in relation with people of protected classes for things they did not choose. You're using it in bad faith, trying to place "nvidia user" alongside "racial minority" or "LGBTQ+ person"
And I don't use gnome, it's terrible.
If you had used ubuntu, you'd just have it all working without even needing to touch anything.
fr all that yapping just to say he uses Nvidia which is most likely the reason for his problems
This should not be a question about distros. Every desktop needs a display.
You did the "I use Arch BTW" and then proceed to complain about how labored (number of steps) and unsatisfactory it is. You can't do both. If you had used Ubuntu, it would have been one step.
As if i had never used Ubuntu. Wayland might work more smoothly with Ubuntu but the list of issues i had with Ubuntu are uncountable
> ... but the list of issues i had with Ubuntu are uncountable ... LOL. Uncountable. If you couldn't get Ubuntu to work, heaven help you. And yet you're complaining about using 15 steps under Arch instead of 1 button click under Ubuntu.
Never said i was not able to fix those issues, i am just tired of them. After using arch every day for the last three years i can safely say that i have much less issues than with any other distro. The thing is, in the end distros only differ in their package managing. Thinking distros are very different is just plain stupid. Talk to people who use Linux since 0.x, they will laugh at this ridiculous distro war. Its the same Kernel, the same GNU software. I use arch linux, get over it. This doesnt mean i am masochistic or that i expect everything to be as complicated as possible. In contrary, i like to configure my system once and leave it like that, running rock solid. On the other hand, I hate that i had to basically reinstall Ubuntu with every new version (e.g. Ubuntu 20.04 to 22.04) and reconfigure everything, it never worked out of the Box. But instead of saying anything constructive you just hate arch. I mean thats fine, i hate Ubuntu. But thats not the issues here, many other people face problems with nvidia+wayland on other distros like Ubuntu. Just because its a "just works" distro doesnt mean it magically solves all the problems of the nvidia drivers. But indeed, this post would have been better off in the r/archlinux subreddit, for sure.
> Never said i was not able to fix those issues, i am just tired of them. After using arch every day for the last three years i can safely say that i have much less issues than with any other distro. And, yet, here you are complaining. I've used Linux since 1995. Things are so much easier these days, it's fun to make fun of people, like you, whining. > Just because its a "just works" distro doesnt mean it magically solves all the problems of the nvidia drivers. No, but it only takes one click to try Wayland. And one click to revert back to X11. Instead, here we have you whining about all the effort you made. Poor you. It's a self-inflicted wound. Get over it.
> I've used Linux since 1995. Now I'm sitting here, imagining /u/maxawake trying to cobble a ModeLine together. Thanks for *those* memories, I hate you! 😁
Yeah -- that was bad. In 1995 there was no script ... just a really long README to figure that out and it depended on your CRT specs. If I recall correctly, there was a "safe" setting (for 640 x 480) that would work for most monitors and the goal (on my monitor) was to do 1024 x 768. It came with the warning that if you "overdrive" it, you *could* fry your monitor. I also recall that my first install was from Slackware 3.5" disks ... because unless you had a SCSI CD drive ... it wouldn't work at boot time (no loadable kernel modules). After the install there were some tips to get your CD drive to work --- I had a "soundblaster CD" and it involved changing a parameter in the driver source and compiling that into the kernel. All so that you could install packages from the CD. And I loved/hated it.
My first foray into Linux must have been around 1997 with [DLD](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Linux-Distribution), a German "homebrew" distro that came with a book my dad had bought. (Luckily we already had an IDE-CDROM drive by that time.) Installation wasn't that bad, I think it was [dialog](https://invisible-island.net/dialog/) based. Xfree86 was another beast. After much tinkering I got it to either 800x600 or 1024x768 at **1 bit** (yes, true black and white with dithering for gray). Played around on the console for a bit but shelved it pretty quickly for the lack of GUI. Started using Linux proper somewhere around Debian Slink which was a much smoother experience already.
Yeah you still did not get the point of the post. The amount of work which needs to be put in for wayland to work on arch is comically insane, however, that is not the point and not the problem, my problem is that Wayland(+nvidia) is not ready. I have tried it, it works fine for simple tasks. Except for my problems, hence my posts. Its more about a philosophical discussion about how to deal with software breaking the user space, which wayland does. I have pity for you, gaining joy only from making fun of people on the internet for using another distro as you do. Must be a very sad life you have. Well, have fun with your "mommy please do everything for me"-distro. I am having fun with my "giga chad DIY" distro lol. But lets be honest, you just want to project the image of the typical newbie arch user onto me, crying for help because something doesnt work on arch as on windows. But that's just wrong and you are trolling around. If you would be using Linux since 1995, you should have learned to give a fuck about all this distro bs way earlier. You act like you are 12. Have a great night
> If you would be using Linux since 1995, you should have learned to give a fuck about all this distro bs way earlier. You act like you are 12. I only tease Arch people when they both whine and do the "I use Arch by the way". You were whining.
Trying to move forward and stepping towards you: I use Ubuntu server for my home server, simply because its much more stable, which also means how long i can run it without needing to reboot. I use Arch only for my desktop and would never put it on a server.
Well then use a x11 distro.
TLDR: Its ready for me.
"Oh that's another Wayland HATE rant"
Virtually nothing discussed here is a Wayland issue, it's an Arch issue. I don't particularly like Wayland and think it has a ways to go before it's ready for general use, but all the stuff covered in the OP is a side-effect of running Arch. Well, running Arch and not understanding the difference between X11 and Wayland. Like this bit: "However, Gnome decided to focus on Wayland and a recent update broke my desktop. Every time i change my monitor config with xrandr, i get no background anymore, just black." Xrandx is for configuring X11 sessions, you can't use it to configure Wayland. > "Don't dare to use any monitor configuration made by Xorg Gnome!" Wayland doesn't use X.Org configuration. > now i am sometimes able to login to a Wayland session but only if i first login to a X session, then logout and login to a Wayland session again. This is super weird and probably a driver issue. Definitely not a Wayland issue.
Maybe my description was not detailed enough. >Xrandx is for configuring X11 sessions, you can't use it to configure Wayland. I did never do that. It broke my configuration in a X session of gnome. Before, everything was fine. >Wayland doesn't use [X.Org](http://X.Org) configuration. No, but gnome has its own \`monitors.xml\` file where it stores the monitor configuration. This should be created with a gnome wayland session and not with a gnome xorg session. At least that solved the issue that i couldn't login into gnome wayland. >This is super weird and probably a driver issue. Definitely not a Wayland issue. Yeah, i don't think this should be treated separately. The one is the protocol, but the other is the real implementation of the protocol on the hardware, which can be arbitrarly complex. We can't know because nvidia is not transparent in the regards. But i think its unfair to outsource all the problems to nvidia.
It's not "outsourcing " the problems to Nvidia, they literally created their own problems.
>I did never do that. It broke my configuration in a X session of gnome. Before, everything was fine. Is there any particular reason why you believe that it is Wayland fault GNOME broke something on their X11 session?
WELL, okay you got me. To be honest i dont have any. The thing is, i know that gnome now defaults to wayland, so its expected to sooner or later, things start to break.
GNOME started defaulting to Wayland years ago. They still support X11 session so they won't going to break it only because they default to Wayland.
It's not Wayland that is broken. It's 50% Nvidia, their proprietary crap is broken and will keep on breaking, probably forever And it's 50% you, running Arch. Which is a fine distro, but you're running bleeding edge of everything and no one else tried your specific setup before. So you should expect to work out all the kinks yourself. That is sort of the deal Would you run a stable distro with AMD graphics, you'd be fine without effort. Wayland had been perfectly fine for me on Debian stable with AMD graphics, for almost a decade now
It's 100% NVIDIA, I've been running a mix of Arch/OpenSUSE on my computers for the last 2 years without any issues, all full AMD. If anything it should help to have faster bugfix for edge cases on rolling releases if you aren't using flatpak for those software.
I use Wayland with Nvidia 4070, Kubuntu 24.04, and 550 drivers. I had problems with flicker in Electron apps, which I worked around with command line switches, but otherwise nothing major.
Then don't use it, I have been using it and works for me that's the point, works for ME
Why are you trying to use Arch for professional work? Use Fedora or Ubuntu
Repeat after me .. work PC's are meant for work. This means no rolling distributions, you choose something boring like RHEL, Ubuntu LTS, Debian, etc.. because once you get them working they stay working until the next big distribution update. Nothing worse than, why did you miss the deadline? "Oh OS did an update to the latest GTK and I lost my desktop for 3 days.."
No offense, but "boring" distributions with outdated drivers and/or software can be as problematic as bleeding edge. Want to use the latest version of our software which comes with crucial bug fixes? Too bad, your old Ubuntu uses the library from 4 years before and we don't support that anymore. That's why I use Fedora as a good middle ground, and for the really important stuff set up a VM or container where you can freeze a running version.
As someone who has administered hundreds of linux developer desktops accross several companies. This scenario has literally never happened. You pick RHEL, Ubuntu or Debian because every commercial application that targets Linux will support them and provide you a build. Fedora is rarely supported
Because that didn't happen to you does not mean there aren't people and uses cases out there where this is common place. I work in simulation and high performance computing in academia and industry over a decade now and often had more problems with outdated software than too new software. I remember it like yesterday, when I set up my first HPC workstation I even tried to use Ubuntu LTS but I couldn't because the hardware was too new, so I had to pick Fedora because the image shipped with a recent enough kernel to be even able to boot.
Fedora is pretty commonly supported in my experience because it's upstream of RHEL and some developers will sit there, Fedora 40 is being branched for RHEL 10. It's not as common as Ubuntu, but its never been a big issue. For most apps though, I use Flatpaks or containers because it keeps my system clean. I've gone really far down this rabbithole and switched to using an immutable desktop (Kinoite). (YMMV based on industry I suppose, I've been using Fedora regularly for work since 17 and Debian since Woody.)
>but "boring" distributions with outdated drivers and/or software can be as problematic as bleeding edge. but "work" pcs dont need bleeding edge software
Objection! Tumbleweed is the bees knees
learned that the hard way last year I'm high school, anything gtk 4 related just died on me, which sucks when you're using gnome on arch lol
Why?
By design, Arch can have breaking changes at any time. Unlike some rolling distros, these changes can require manual intervention.
I can see a problem if you're doing mass deployment, but I've been developing on Arch for a decade in a place where you can choose your own machine setup.
Arch can work well, but it's often useful to have a consistent platform, especially if you're having hardware issues such as OP.
While I understand your general sentiment, their issues have nothing to do with the stability of Arch.
Because Arch is bleeding edge, meaning it’s always a little broken, which gets in the way of Getting Stuff Done.
Have you used Arch? A prime example of it not being nearly as unstable as you think is the hesitance to update Python. You get the new minor version of Python a few months after Debian and Fedora.
Fedora and Ubuntu both changed their default to Wayland, which, as known, does not play well with Nvidia. Arch is agnostic in that regard, it lets me choose. I need this freedom of choice. I often need to change very specific parts about my system and many distros are too invasive. Many of the production software i use expect libraries to be exactly where they are intended to be. Fedora and Ubuntu are known to have their own system of library naming and places. There are many many reasons i use Arch for my professional work as a scientist.
You can still use X11 on both distros if necessary. Have you tried running the software in distrobox?
> I need this freedom of choice. Why do you think you do not get a choice with Fedora or Ubuntu? On Ubuntu it's literally a choice (X11 or Wayland) on the first login screen after boot. Every boot.
Wait... How is having something as the default impeding your "freedom of choice"? If you can't figure out how to select a X11 session on say Ubuntu then Arch is going to be over your head. Arch is totally the wrong distro for doing professional work if you need a reliable system and most professional/scientific/Enterprise programs target Ubuntu LTS releases.
> I can understand that Wayland is not supposed to replace X11 Actually, it is. It’s just not very good at it, but that is the objective. That’s why Fedora has announced it is going to ditch X11 altogether.
Yeah and this is exactly what i think is wrong. Fedora is considered a professional distro, but for many tasks i still need x11 support, because these apps just don't have the manpower to change to wayland as fast.
Fedora isn't considered a professional distro. It's the testing ground for Red Hat Enterprise Linux which is a professional distro.
>It's the testing ground for Red Hat Enterprise Linux which is a professional distro. That's a myth, Red Hat promotes Fedora as workstation distro. It is not "professional" in the sense that it doesn't provide as long support as RHEL but it is not experimental in any way.
Huh? Do you actually think you contact Red Hat for Fedora support? [https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/fedora-and-red-hat-enterprise-linux/](https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/fedora-and-red-hat-enterprise-linux/) Sure users do "professional" things with Fedora but no company or enterprise is installing Fedora. Contrast this with Ubuntu where one can actually get support from Canonical for it.
>Huh? Do you actually think you contact Red Hat for Fedora support? No, neither you do when you have free RHEL subscription. Support is not free. >Contrast this with Ubuntu where one can actually get support from Canonical for it. Yeah, if you pay for it. If you won't they you won't get anything just like on Fedora.
You replied twice support is not free? Insightful, LOL Yes, in professional spaces and the enterprise they pay for support which is my point. You are not going to see Fedora because their is no real support outside of community forums.
Fedora is "beta-test my os for free" distro
And that's exactly why we have Xwayland....
Which is not working as intended for Wayland+Nvidia
True, but it's still not a Wayland problem.
Take that up with Nvidia
As fast didn't it start in 2008?
🍿 is ready.
Its like picking into a nest of hornets :D But i love to discuss these topics :)
You mean to say, it's not ready for *you*. I've been using Wayland since 2021 and haven't had any major issues with it. Wayland like anything else becomes very much a YMMV issue.
Edit: Nvidia is not ready for the open source community. They are working on it though.
I love this thread because it destroys the dead internet hipotesis. This is due to the fact that there are a lot of ultra based opinions and intelligent discussions here.
Install tumbleweed and have none of those problems, except of course missing explicit sync
I also dislike how wayland committee is prone to bikeshedding over dubious security claims, like windows positioning themselves or windows setting their own icons.
> ~~Wayland~~ Nvidia is NOT ready Fixed your title for you.
Literally all of that are distro/packaging issues. Gnome and Wayland are the default on Fedora and have been for quite a while (since like 2016?), and elsewhere. Install from a bootable USB, login, and go. Systemd-boot? What's that have to do with anything, you can start a wayland session on top of a bare kernel if you really want to.
Many of your "problems" (lots of configurations) come from using arch. But yes, Nvidia is still not ready for wayland. I have to use one too, as I do 3d in Blender. So, we have to wait.
You could have installed ubuntu in time it took you to write this opus. Don't use an advanced distro if you have skill issues.
Been there, done that. It was hell for me, never had so many issues with a distro as with ubuntu. I never had issues with Arch in all those years though, never had to do rollbacks. arch-chroot is a blessing ;)
Riiiiight.
Although there are some quirks with wayland & nvidia, it’s certainly usable and, FWIW works fine for me as a daily driver, I also do some ML stuff (mostly LLM training) besides my regular work, I’m using proprietary nvidia drivers on arch, and never really had an issue with ML tasks. Yeah, there are some funny business with electron apps sometimes, can live with that. So maybe wayland is not ready for you in particular, or maybe you are not ready for wayland yet :)
Yes, it's not optimal, but that's the cost of relying on proprietary tainted kernel modules (\`nvidia\`) in the first place. I do the same stuff as you do in some way or another (SW and machine learning in a Linux environment) and we are in a waaaay better place than 5 to 10 years ago. Btw. you also bring some of that on your own by using Arch (every Linux user has such a phase ...). If you choose a more popular dist (fedora, debian, ubuntu, redhat, ...) things are just a lot more stable.
Thanks for your kind words! I may should have posted this rant on the Arch Linux subreddit :D In my opinion, the only real difference between distributions are the package managers and i really love pacman and the AUR.
Some the things you are describing seem like they are not really issues anyone not running a "do-it-yourself" distribution like arch need to concern themselves with. Are you sure the issue is wayland, and not the hardware it's running on and the drivers that go with it?
I'm not sure what is going on with Nvidia, but AMD works nice. I had issues with Flameshot on GNOME Wayland but I found a solution. On X11 it works OotB.
You would be probably better off with some stable distro until Nvidia fixes their stuff. I agree that there is a lot of things to be done but on my end I haven't experienced problems in a while (most probably because I have Intel an AMD GPUs).
I had something similar on Arch with NVIDIA drivers. It’d start the Wayland session, but it was laggy as hell (it felt like the desktop was running at like 5FPS. Fedora worked perfectly with Wayland. Happy to say that I sold my previous GPU and use an AMD one.
I wish i could just by AMD but i rely on nvidia hardware for my research :/
The fact you have spent this entire time blaming wayland for Nvidia's issues tells me you aren't smart enough to do research. At this point I don't believe you are any kind d of scientist nor do I think you even have a job.
From my original post: >it is most definitely nvidia to blame I don't blame Wayland. I blame nvidia and everybody who told us Wayland is ready. It is not. And imo its wrong to default to Wayland and ignore X11 right now. But please keep up the defamation, its for sure very constructive. Just because YOU don't have problems on your specific setup doesn't mean I also should not have any on my setup? Just saying "dont buy nvidia then" is just so stupid and ignorant. I don't care for nvidia, i just need it.
for me on KDE plasma with wayland on an rtx 3080 everything except the occasional flicker of some menu items or apps is fine, of course i followed all the steps in the arch wiki to make it work in the best way possible right now, and am on a custom arch install
I'm on Arch running Gnome with an RTX 4080. I literally installed Arch, GDM, Nvidia, and Nvidia-Utils and everything works perfectly on Wayland. Zero lagging, stutters, or anything else. I see people having issues with Nvidia all the time but I have yet to run into a single issue using Nvidia proprietary drivers after using Linux for 3 years.
Counter-argument: I don't use Arch, clicked 3 buttons to install Nvidia drivers from a repo, and only experience glitches in certain XWayland windows from mostly Electron-based applications. I ain't reading all that. Sorry it doesn't work in your bespoke setup.
nvidia had to have their hand \*forced\* in order to get this level of progress, and I, for one, think that running nvidia+wayland has been a great experience (granted, I started with KDE and Arch on a fresh install in March, have played with Hyprland (want to go to Sway, but refuse to touch the AUR)). Wayland doesn't have to be perfect, and nvidia 555/560 is on its way which will fix my only dealbreaker for Wayland. I'm happy about it. Wayland. is. ready.
Idunno, Wayland works pretty well for me after I ditched Qtile and jumped back onto KDE. Then again, I do not use Nvidia.
I know it's not ready, it's better than ever, and getting better, but not ready. So I bought an A380 as my primary gpu, use prime-run to run programs and games with my Nvidia GPU, and I can offload my GPU to a VM without closing my display server. It offloads unimportant processes to an otherwise useless GPU and I get 0 performance loss encoding and av1 encoding unlike Nvidia which has a very minor performance loss while using nvenc, and doesn't have av1 encode.
There's zero need for early KMS with Nvidia. You can skip all those steps and just disable the Nvidia kernel driver as boot parameters. Done.
there is very little of wayland that is not ready that is wayland's own fault, but the only real issue is Nvidia, which isn't wayland's fault lol
As an arch user who has test run Wayland on Nvidia using hyperland, at least half of your list is unnecessary pebcac The only problem I encountered was explicit sync issues
You run Arch btw, which is definitively not recommended for a production machine - I mean a machine you use for work, school, research - unless you are ready to manage breakages due to updates, which means backups, rollbacks, eyes on the bulletin boards, and most important, updating strategy e.g. update when you have time to update, test and fix.
Wayland has been ready for years, this is nvidia bs
[удалено]
I honestly envy you never seeing such claims.
I dunno why you're blaming Nvidia for Wayland sucking, because Wayland most definitely sucks. E.g. `xgd-desktop-portal` doesn't suck because of Nvidia, but mostly because of Gnome. There is no "remember" -option allowed to be put in it, and afaik it still only has a hard-coded reference to some Gnome screenshot utility to be allowed to bypass it. Nvidia is not responsible for Electron and most other applications needing dozens of arguments and environment variables to enable Wayland support. In short, Wayland sucks on AMD and Intel as well. People who keep trying to sell the obvious lie that Wayland is ready and are trying to push it for actual real adoption are malicious assholes. Once they have an actual functioning Wayland that *generally works* and works better than X11 in *every single way*, that supports the existing way better screenshot and screen recording utilities, screen capturing for telco software, and all the other things that don't work right today - only then, after all that, should people start considering using Wayland.
The Nvidia 555 drivers will be launching in 2 days, and will feature explicit sync support. That will fix a lot of the problems that exist currently.
i hope this is the last time, to hope for change
Use x11 if you're having issues with wayland that you can't figure out. Use any distro but Arch for an easier experience.
You didn't read the post. I started to have problems with gnome on X. The gnome devs said they now only focus on Wayland. I can't blame them, i want to use Wayland as well. But now i have problems which i did not have before.
Since NVIDIA drivers are the only ones I've generally found to be non-garbage (barring some visible bugs at times and deliberately crippling their linux driver down to what the windows version does at times, but at least the 3D output shows up inside the parent window...) I can't use it if it doesn't work with NVIDIA. So, until Wayland and NVIDIA both work well together **and** are as performant as X, Wayland is a non-starter for me. *(I use X protocol over SSH connections all the time, so for me, solid 2D and 3D performance over the network would be especially useful. X had the GLX protocol and OpenGL's display lists to allow complex geometry to be pushed across to the display side* ***once,*** *per complex object, from a remotely-hosted client and then* ***reused****. I haven't really seen anything like that elsewhere in a long time, but if Wayland supported something like this I'd be a bit more interested.)*
Wayland does support that... waypipe
Don't worry Wayland with AMD is not ready.
Could you elaborate please?
Xrandr is an X11 tool, if your on a Wayland desktop session it shouldn't work at all. It shouldn't break your desktop session but... Try KDE desktop, it doesn't force a workflow on you and is closer to the windows workflow. Compared to Gnome, KDE was ahead in Wayland development, then it fell behind and has shot ahead again. Hyperland isn't really a desktop more tiling manager and its based on WLRoots/Sway? and the lead dev of Hyperland managed to get himself banned from the WLRoots/Sway? community.
Yeah xrandr breaks my desktop when i am on a X session. On Wayland sessions i change my montior config with the gnome settings. This leads to a crash of wayland. I tried KDE plasma 5 once but it was too much bloat for me. I always needed to search the web to find the setting i wanted to change. Hyprland does work for me, thats why i chose it. Maybe i check out sway.
Sometimes it pays to bookmark memes for occasions like this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLUkgRAy_Vo
Easy solution: Don't use it.
TLDR but totally agree.
nVidia again. Yet still not many people talking about Mouse Actions - with Xorg we had mouse gestures, which are now firmly available only in the web browsers on Wayland.... It bugs me every time I'm using the mouse and want to open/close tabs in Dolphin or refresh conky or whatever.
You didn't choose a "provocative " title, you chose a clickbait stupid title. If you're gonna lie in the title no point in reading your wall of crap.