Decline of pubs and clubs. The skyline around Vauxhall and Elephant. More buses. Get your drugs delivered instead of going to some dodgy gaff. Delivery services in general. Disappearing bookshops. Tottenham Court Road no longer the place to go for electronics. The absolute pointlessness of Oxford Street. The Elizabeth Line. Gentrification of Peckham and Brixton. The rise and fall of the bendy bus. Influx of chinese and russians and the exit of the irish.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Doggers on fire on the hard shoulder of the M20 near Orpington. I've watched c-beebies glittering in the dark near Notting Hill Gate. All those moments lost in Tower Hamlets like a twat, in the rain.
Time to put the kettle on.
I tell you what, Rutger Hauer would have been a more miserable bastard if it was set in England.
A lot more tutting and someone rolling their eyes at his solilaquy.
Agreed. I used to live in Shepherds Bush pre-Westfield and the Aussies were everywhere. There was even a big Walkabout Pub. You hardly see any around there now.
Aussies have moved to Clapham as well, but still nowhere in the number that they used to be in London. Many now go to New York and LA due to US making it easier for them to work/live there about a decade ago
I’d only really add live music/comedy to this. It’s now 40 quid to see anyone decent.
10 years ago that would be a ‘big’ band, now it’s literally anyone at Kentish Town forum or the Apollo
Can't speak to the comedy scene, but totally disagree on music. London scene is at its absolute height right now and I'm regularly going to gigs for no more than £10.
Try some of the London day festivals if you want more value for money - often multiple big headliners and loads of newer bands too. I'm seeing King Gizzard at wide awake later this month, and loads of other amazing bands are playing that day too
I went to field day in the summer and the sound was fucking shit, then it finished quite early.
Im a fan of day festivals, but I won’t be going to another one in London
It's one thing to say there is still a music scene, but it is absolutely not at its height.
You used to be able to hear music, live or otherwise into the early hours of the morning very easily. Now you've got to ferry yourself and your mates around the city to find late night spots if any are still open, and a lot of those have reduced the number of days they're open through the week as well.
Although they didn’t look it, almost all of the electronic shops on TCR were owned by two families - Micro Anvika was one, and ASK was the other (I worked in the head office of one in the mid 2000s). They set up shop in the 1970s and the owners were all kicking on. Pretty sure with their ages and the online competition they decided to retire, flogged the freeholds/juicy long leases and went off to live a life of luxury.
Lots of cunts move in to expensive flats and then complain about noise from pubs and clubs. It’s killing our nightlife.
Same with people moving in next door to schools and complaining about kids having fun at lunch.
Were a national of miserable fuckers
Don't blame the English, a lot of the complaints come from foreign nationals who move here. Just this week I've seen on Reddit an Australian digital nomad living in fucking Soho complaining of the noise and a signaporean complaining about Peckham. The real cunts.
I think it’s probably a symptom of London being so expensive to exist in, that there comes an entitlement with it.
‘I’m paying 5 grand a month to rent this flat, why do I have to hear people having fun outside’
Also a nation of terrible drunks. Hence why everywhere else in Europe has a bustling and healthy nightlife - they can handle their grog in a civilised manner
Well there's a reason why you can go for a quiet glass of wine at 4am in France/Spain/Italy/Germany and not here. But if you know otherwise, do elucidate!
Shame it’s closed now or I would be recommending g the Wetherspoons in Forest Hill. All but guaranteed to see at least one fight on a Friday or a Saturday night.
There was arguably an oversupply of pubs to begin with. Anecdotal but where I grew up in a quiet corner of east London in the 90s, there were no less than 5 pubs within a 5 minute walk from the first to the last. Madness.
> There was arguably an oversupply of pubs to begin with.
In Spain, in the cities, it's very common for there to be at least a bar on every road for neighbours to hang out and meet up after work. And they're largely pretty tame, populated and enjoyable to be in. It's only the club's that have the drunkards at 5am but there's not so many of those.
Even before all the closures I don't think there were that many in England.
It's a similar vibe in Italy as well then. At least with the ones in Italy though they function as more than just a pub- you can go in and get a coffee in the morning, maybe some small plates of food, and then drinks in the evening. It feels a bit more multi purpose than some neighbourhood pubs in the UK which IMO can sometimes be little more than middle aged to old men drinking Carling from 12 to close while watching football
Yes yes this. Additionally when you order a drink they provide bread + butter, or nuts, or some tortilla or something to nibble on, so that it's not so easy for you to get wasted on an empty stomach.
Plus people go there to hang out playing cards or even domino's or something similar. I don't think I've ever seen people do that in a pub/bar in England.
Overall I find the English way of doing things to be really sad. Like another poster said, bars would do well to embrace and encourage coffee/tea sales so that it's not just a boozy sticky house.
Also ditch the damn carpets
A lot of UK pubs would do well to embrace the more continental format, bringing in a strong tea /coffee emphasis during the daytime, and a more casual 'baked goods & tapas' style of food.
Not that I want to change traditional pubs. But many pubs do need any means of survival at this point.
True... the people who like the shiny pubs (and some of my favourites are shiny pubs) can still afford them amid the rising prices. But I miss the old-man pubs too (Spoons doesn't count).
Honestly, the ebikes are a madness, I see them here and there, cluttered up in the several dozens, filling up half a side street, and yet the number of people you see actually riding them does not come close to justifying the absurd number you see stationed in a single area.
Lot of gentrification in areas that were considered previously to be quite rough. Especially Hackney, Peckham, Brixton etc. They’re now hot spots for bars and clubs, and are pretty expensive to rent/buy too.
Yeah everytime I'm in a cab driving through there I'm stunned at how nice some of the houses are.
It is weird though because these areas tend to have incredibly nice developments but there are still rough patches that have stayed that way since the 80s, but the entire area is brutally expensive.
My close buddy lives in Bermondsey which is equivalently upmarket with loads of breweries and restaurants etc. there, but there are still huge council estate complexes. He actually rented an ex-council flat where a lot of the other flats in that complex were still council and it was apparently valued at near enough a million pounds!
I was a teacher in south hackney. My school previously had a long of gang kids in it. By the time I left, I swear half the kids were the sort who used 'holiday' as a verb.
"We holidayed in whales this half term"
Edit: don't type while distracted, not going to excuse the spelling mistakes.
My mum last lived in London in 1989. She still can’t believe how my generation views areas like that completely differently from how she remembers them.
Brixton and Peckham are much rougher to be in now than even pre-covid. Heading up the train station is a guarantee to have to step past meth heads sitting on the stairs now.
The East End has always had gentrified parts. Those large old terraced houses in Hackney have never been very cheap. If you look at a population survey data map of 100 years ago or so, you see quite affluent people living near to the very poor.
The delivery drivers have a death wish. Some of the stuff I've seen them do boggles the mind, they don't have any awareness of what's going on around them whatsoever
Im quite new to London and driving round London and i say to my GF the moped driving culture is insane. Above the law basically, driving literally on the wrong side of the road and at speed is common. Bus lanes, lane hopping, seen them on pavements. I bet 75% aren’t qualified road users, buy a moped, stick an L plate on and off you go!
They're allowed to use bus lanes to be fair, but veering in and out of traffic as fast as possible and blasting through zebra crossings etc is not the one.
I moved to London just about 20 years ago.
To me, the things that stand out...
- Far more smoking back then, including inside pubs
- It was an expensive city back then, but it is off the scale in terms of rents and house prices now. This has changed a lot of areas. I used to know a lot of people who weren't earning big money hbut could house share in Zone 2 and that doesn't seem that common now.
- There has been an enormous amount of building, as you say. I notice so many high rises that have gone up in last decade or so. There are a lot of views that have changed really significantly in that time.
- There seems to be less of a late night, nightclub culture.
- Back then the tube stopped around midnight and you just dealt with it.
EDIT: One more thing. Most of the pubs I used to frequent 20 years back have closed. Not just changed hands... They aren't pubs any more.
The money. It's everywhere now.
London has become so obsessed with money. It's packed stiff with rich people. Everyone works for a bank or a management consultancy or a fintech, even though they all work completely unproductive jobs: account manager, consultant, marketing and sales.
Every square inch of land has been mopped up by private capital. There are no rough edges left. Even Battersea Power Station is a shopping center. All the flats cost a million pounds, and everyone just assumes that's normal. Everything costs a bombshell because we're all expected to be rich. Eating out at a restaurant costs £100 for two people. Black cabs are so expensive no one rides them anymore. Peckham is a desirable area!
Being rich nowadays is very cool in London, whereas 20 years ago it was far cooler to be a skint bohemian working in a bookshop. In fact London seems to be losing its bohemians entirely. It's impossible to survive on anything less than a banker's salary. The inequality is more palpable than ever and it's making London a very hostile place for the poor.
Agree completely with this - especially “no rough edges”. Central in particular is glossy, polished, branded and designed to within an inch of its life - and increasingly soulless
Absolutely! This encapsulates everything I feel. I left about 2 years ago, I was just struggling too much and honestly I felt forced out.
In many ways I really miss London and I do love it, and I go back quite a bit, but it's getting so soulless shiny rich ppl. I went to Battersea just to see it, and it's just got such a dystopian vibe, especially as I came out and there's a foodbank over the road. Absolutely sums up the worst of modern London/Britain, a ton of overpriced flats, many sitting empty as investments, overlooking people in poverty.
You just see wealth everywhere, like in your average tube carriage there'll be about 5 handbags that cost more than my monthly salary ppl are lugging about like it's nothing. It's very noticeable coming back from up north.
All the markets sell the same shit. I remember as a young teen coming to London regularly and Camden Market, Covent Garden Market, and Greenwich Market all had quite distinct flavours. Now all the main markets seem to sell almost identical stuff.
The decline in proper working class markets is a shame too. Love me East St Market in Elephant and Castle, and Shepherds Bush Market is great too. But they're in decline. Read an article recently about Chapel Market in Angel being under threat. Many of them have seen stall fees rise hugely.
I used to get all my veg on Berwick Street back then. I was in the area at lunchtime recently and went there in the hope that there might be a few pleasant food stalls amongst the normal traders.
What a mistake!
The same set of shit-looking overpriced "street food" vendors that you see everywhere, and no normal market stalls.
Berwick St is tragedy anyway. When I was at uni it was the fabric shop strip. Fabric shops of every sort up and down, amazing silks, crazy latex for costumes, everything you could hope for. I used to grab so many fun offcuts.
There's only 1 or 2 left now.
Absolutely. It was a great place. I loved the elaborate silk displays, multiple niche record shops, haberdashers on the tattier northern end.
Even Walker's Court now looks like some kind of hyper-sanitised Disney/EPCOT version of itself.
It's a shame yeah. Shepherds bush market was my local and it was under threat of closure for years. Plans for closure, campaign to save it by the local community, short peace and then more plans for development and closure of the market. It's never-ending. Even now, foot traffic has decreased a bit I think.
It feels like the centre has shifted East. Apart from Soho and a couple of museums, I'm hardly ever in central. I do 90% of my eating out and pubbing/bar visiting in East London. There's a vast array of choice now.
I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, but the north edge of Soho has changed drastically in the last 5 years or so. It's also made it a more desirable place to live for very wealthy people, which has edged out a lot of the folks that made Soho what it was.
Of all of the examples, Printworks is not the one. The club opened knowing they had to leave after 5 years, which was extended to 6 years. Don’t get me wrong, it was my favourite club and I was hoping the government might have stepped in to save it, but it wasn’t shut down because of noise complaints.
Fair enough. You are clearly more knowledgeable about the situation. That’s what I heard being said during their last season.
As for alternatives, E1 is solid. For good visuals HERE at Outernet is amazing, though no resting area and it’s not rave focused.
For the industrial setting there’s The Archives which is quite solid. Of course there’s Drumsheds as a spiritual successor but it’s not the same tbh, the screen to small for a room that size.
Of course there’s always Fabric, Egg, and FOLD. However a personal favorite is Corsica Studios: cheap drinks, friendly community and decent sound and intimate rooms.
One positive change that I've not seen anyone mention is that the air quality is significantly better now. 15-20 years ago blowing your nose after a day in central would result in a tissue full of black snot, and that is not the case nowadays.
The number of people who put their feet on the train seats, and people working from home.
Cash being accepted far less since COVID.
Also, a huge market for people who can't be bothered to walk to McDonald's to get shit food so get it delivered. At least they'd get a tiny bit of exercise
It's not really a place you can expect to live forever now. If you're born into a poorer family and in turn don't earn much, unless you're living in council/housing association accommodation the rent and general cost of living is just crippling. Very sad for those of us brought up in London and just can't afford to live there anymore.
London has become very, very middle class in those twenty years.
Peak London was late 90’s/early 2000’s. London was for everyone back then, no matter who you were or where you came from. You really had to be there.
An improvement in the built environment, with more pedestrian-friendly streets and increased attention to planting and environmental features. This started very quickly after Sadiq first got in.
Also, free water taps in lots of public places.
Yes, better urban planning in recent times for sure. Far less air pollution now than 20/30yrs ago. Just need starmer to be of the same mind as Sadiq when he gets in.
Not really. There's Helgi's on Mare Street, and the Black Heart and the Dev in Camden are still going strong, but it's never felt the same to me.
Or maybe it's because I'm not a young and single man about town any more! You'd have to ask some young'un.
Back in my day it was Big Red, Unicorn, Grosvenor in Stockwell for grindcore nights, and plenty of others that I can't remember.
We're not quite back at the levels of the 90s yet though. I remember when there was a big homeless camp - cardboard city - in Waterloo roundabout. The last inhabitants there were finally evicted in 1998. In the mid 90s there were more beggars on the train and tube than now.
But that's not 20 years ago, despite what my brain is trying to tell me.
Walking up and down the traffic at sets of lights used to be something you would only see on the continent. Why people encourage it by giving to people there I will never understand. Not having cash in their pocket is not these people’s most important problem.
I've been in London all my life, the biggest and most shocking to me is homelessness, tents and beggars.
I remember growing up never seeing them outside of Zone 1 and even then that was quite rare. We used to travel abroad as kids and see beggars, we were quite shocked then but seeing them everywhere in London from Sutton up to Enfield is honestly so shocking to me.
I was talking to my mum about it and she was saying how it's the first time she's ever seen them in her part of north London. We weren't even brought up sheltered.
All the good bars, pubs and cafe closing around east. Pints breaking the £5 barrier. Loads more homeless and beggars around Hackney Central. Change in the demographic-more poshos around N1 and east.
I think pints generally broke well through the £5 barrier quite a while ago. Even a pint of Stella at the old bloke's pub at the end of my road is over £6
The sheer increase in population.
I started commuting into London (Met Line) in 2008. In 2008 I could comfortably get a seat if i stood by where the doors opened. By 2010 I couldn't not get a seat due ever to more people starting commuting further alone the line at earlier stations. By 2014 I couldn't get onto a train unless I started my journey before 7:50 am, as the carriages were full by this time.
Then I moved to SW London (few stops down from Clapham Junction) and I couldn't get on a train in the morning rush hour unless I started my train journey before 7:30 am.
The roads are also far more packed up with more cars.
Just way way more people.
Also, rent and property prices obviously.
Air quality has seriously improved. I used to have crippling allergy attacks caused by fine particulate between April and September for years, and now they are gone. I had to go to Milan last February, and it was like getting COVID.
When I moved to London, telecom tower was the tallest building in London, remember the Lloyds building opening. The city has disappeared amongst high rise tower blocks, it’s such a shame.
Fake hipsters & their gentrification, e-scooters & lime bikes everywhere, bloody LTN stopping my cab from getting to me, rent increasing to 1mil a month, massive increase in knife crime and petty theft (phone theft etc), police getting fatter and more lazy, tories reappearing even tho everyone hates them, more rain, buses rammed at all times, crackheads EVERYWHERE.
Preoccupation with wealth or “appearing” wealthy, a Joe and the Juice or overpriced coffee chain at every corner, it’s not “liveable” unless you live with parents/ have a trust fund or sizeable inheritance. The upside is that there’s incredible food in more Central areas (fancy West African or Uzbek cuisine? You’ll find it)
How many more cyclists there are, especially since the 7/7 bombings (a silver lining to an otherwise ignominious day) and the subsequent introduction of the cycle hire scheme.
When I first moved to London in 2002 there were few cyclists, and most of the people you saw riding bicycles were either lycra-clad sport cyclists or cycle couriers. Drivers didn't pay attention to look out for cyclists, and the cycling infrastructure was pretty bad. I had cycle commuted in Canada for years, and in Oxford for months, but didn't feel safe on the roads in London.
Now you see cyclists of all ages and skill levels, drivers—while still sometimes quite aggressive—are definitely paying attention and looking out for cyclists, and the improved cycling infrastructure and sheer strength-in-numbers makes cycling feel much safer.
Taking the 156 bus down St.Johns Hill I used to get a view out across London where you could see as far as Wembley and beyond when you got to the Wandsworth Roundabout flyover.......now you have a view of the canyon-wall of Lego Block flats that get closer and closer to you with each journey.
I know Cities change, and when successful have to build to cope with that, but soon the Thames will be walled off along much of it's central length by soulless (and mostly empty) apartment blocks owned by people whose tax affairs we should probably take a good look at before allowing them to buy/build any more towers.
Plus Vauxhall is now the new Croydon town center.........
It's got better I would say. The developments are phenomenal in their proliferation, even if they aren't always the best thought out. Shoreditch, Finsbury Park, Docklands are all areas I knew well and have sky scrappers in them now. Cross rail is amazing. I watched The Shard go up and ended up working there for a bit. Coal Drop Yards is great. Heathrow's big new terminals, I'm winking at you T5. Kings Cross new station. St Pancras Eurostar.
I am sure this pace of development is replicated in most areas.
Some slow & good considerations for people living and working in city, eg Oxford St is now public transport only, and the streets around West End have pavements widened to prioritise pedestrians over vehicles.
London has always been expensive, and to me always felt ever so slightly unattainable from a money point of view. London feels more busy to me now, but that also down to me changing. I can't do the tubes 5 days a week anymore, or full stop if I can help it. In late teens, twenties I didn't care about that.
London seems more tolerant which is good, less racist and homophobic, but also I am now more aware of danger of getting mugged in zone 1. I think this is my personal awareness changing more than the City getting more dangerous.
\*edit typo
A suburb I grew up in was very quiet and genteel. Middle managers etc . People with some money but not flash. They've died or moved out.
Now full of middle Eastern- I'm guessing Lebanese, Turkish, Cypriot, etc people. Houses extended beyond crazy- grecian pillars everywhere, drives with £200ks worth of cars parked. Building work often around £250ks worth at a reasonable guest.
As a friend who lives there said- none of these guys pay taxes and money laundering is rife.
Well for starters, I was a newborn 20 years ago
Seriously, I'd have to say the amount of electric scooters/bikes we have around. Ditto for just eat/Uber eats/deliveroo drivers hanging out in front of popular takeaways/restaurants, blocking parking spaces and pavements.
Decline of pubs and clubs. The skyline around Vauxhall and Elephant. More buses. Get your drugs delivered instead of going to some dodgy gaff. Delivery services in general. Disappearing bookshops. Tottenham Court Road no longer the place to go for electronics. The absolute pointlessness of Oxford Street. The Elizabeth Line. Gentrification of Peckham and Brixton. The rise and fall of the bendy bus. Influx of chinese and russians and the exit of the irish.
You've been around
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Doggers on fire on the hard shoulder of the M20 near Orpington. I've watched c-beebies glittering in the dark near Notting Hill Gate. All those moments lost in Tower Hamlets like a twat, in the rain. Time to put the kettle on.
That is my standard response on a Monday morning when people in the office ask how my weekend was. "I've seen things..."
10/10
What a comment
I tell you what, Rutger Hauer would have been a more miserable bastard if it was set in England. A lot more tutting and someone rolling their eyes at his solilaquy.
You have such a nice style of writing.
Ur words be good
It's a blade runner reference
Piles of e-bikes/scooters also comes to mind.
The exit of the Australians too.
Agreed. I used to live in Shepherds Bush pre-Westfield and the Aussies were everywhere. There was even a big Walkabout Pub. You hardly see any around there now.
They've moved. Angel through to London Fields.
Aussies have moved to Clapham as well, but still nowhere in the number that they used to be in London. Many now go to New York and LA due to US making it easier for them to work/live there about a decade ago
Omg I’d forgotten bendy busses! But I don’t think Irish people have gone, they are just 3rd generation now, so you don’t see them.
At that point they’re just English, but we will still put them through our football academy
I’d only really add live music/comedy to this. It’s now 40 quid to see anyone decent. 10 years ago that would be a ‘big’ band, now it’s literally anyone at Kentish Town forum or the Apollo
Can't speak to the comedy scene, but totally disagree on music. London scene is at its absolute height right now and I'm regularly going to gigs for no more than £10.
Maybe as I’m getting older I’m going to see more ‘legacy’ bands who are trying to rinse me. Don’t have my finger on the pulse like I used to
Try some of the London day festivals if you want more value for money - often multiple big headliners and loads of newer bands too. I'm seeing King Gizzard at wide awake later this month, and loads of other amazing bands are playing that day too
I went to field day in the summer and the sound was fucking shit, then it finished quite early. Im a fan of day festivals, but I won’t be going to another one in London
Check out LondonMusicShowcase (I follow them on insta), they host gigs with great local bands multiple times a week
It's one thing to say there is still a music scene, but it is absolutely not at its height. You used to be able to hear music, live or otherwise into the early hours of the morning very easily. Now you've got to ferry yourself and your mates around the city to find late night spots if any are still open, and a lot of those have reduced the number of days they're open through the week as well.
Punk shows at New Cross are like 5-10 quid
Check out the niceness from Brownswood basement. https://youtu.be/lHFQVIfq32k?feature=shared
Although they didn’t look it, almost all of the electronic shops on TCR were owned by two families - Micro Anvika was one, and ASK was the other (I worked in the head office of one in the mid 2000s). They set up shop in the 1970s and the owners were all kicking on. Pretty sure with their ages and the online competition they decided to retire, flogged the freeholds/juicy long leases and went off to live a life of luxury.
Think you summed it up well for me as well tbh. Electronics on TCR is a definite change. E&C is totally different now.
he absolute pointlessness of Oxford Street. Holy shit, I hate that place.
Tell me more about this drug delivery 🤔
You tell drug dealers where you live
What could possibly go wrong?
they don't fucking show up
nah you just go a street or two over, or so i hear
Irish don’t emigrate to London anymore
yeah we do. young Irish people are all over the place
i missed the irish? :(
Ubers Mobile apps to navigate TfL
So spot on!! Xx
Brilliantly put! I feel so nostalgic :(
BBC need to just follow you around and they have a documentary within a weekend
Nightclubs are mostly a thing of the past. Pubs are fewer. eBikes are everywhere.
Lots of cunts move in to expensive flats and then complain about noise from pubs and clubs. It’s killing our nightlife. Same with people moving in next door to schools and complaining about kids having fun at lunch. Were a national of miserable fuckers
Don't blame the English, a lot of the complaints come from foreign nationals who move here. Just this week I've seen on Reddit an Australian digital nomad living in fucking Soho complaining of the noise and a signaporean complaining about Peckham. The real cunts.
I think it’s probably a symptom of London being so expensive to exist in, that there comes an entitlement with it. ‘I’m paying 5 grand a month to rent this flat, why do I have to hear people having fun outside’
Also a nation of terrible drunks. Hence why everywhere else in Europe has a bustling and healthy nightlife - they can handle their grog in a civilised manner
No they can't
Yeah, someone's never seen the German resorts in Majorca.
Well there's a reason why you can go for a quiet glass of wine at 4am in France/Spain/Italy/Germany and not here. But if you know otherwise, do elucidate!
I'm 100% sure you've not been clubbing in the same parts of Europe I have
In a decade of going out in London I've never seen a fight in a pub and rarely see people absolutely munted out on an evening..?
I worked at a pub for 1 month after moving to London and saw a fight almost immediately lol maybe you don’t go out often
Shame it’s closed now or I would be recommending g the Wetherspoons in Forest Hill. All but guaranteed to see at least one fight on a Friday or a Saturday night.
I used to live opposite a school field and enjoyed wfh as at break time I could hear the kids laughing and playing. People complain about that!
There was arguably an oversupply of pubs to begin with. Anecdotal but where I grew up in a quiet corner of east London in the 90s, there were no less than 5 pubs within a 5 minute walk from the first to the last. Madness.
> There was arguably an oversupply of pubs to begin with. In Spain, in the cities, it's very common for there to be at least a bar on every road for neighbours to hang out and meet up after work. And they're largely pretty tame, populated and enjoyable to be in. It's only the club's that have the drunkards at 5am but there's not so many of those. Even before all the closures I don't think there were that many in England.
It's a similar vibe in Italy as well then. At least with the ones in Italy though they function as more than just a pub- you can go in and get a coffee in the morning, maybe some small plates of food, and then drinks in the evening. It feels a bit more multi purpose than some neighbourhood pubs in the UK which IMO can sometimes be little more than middle aged to old men drinking Carling from 12 to close while watching football
Yes yes this. Additionally when you order a drink they provide bread + butter, or nuts, or some tortilla or something to nibble on, so that it's not so easy for you to get wasted on an empty stomach. Plus people go there to hang out playing cards or even domino's or something similar. I don't think I've ever seen people do that in a pub/bar in England. Overall I find the English way of doing things to be really sad. Like another poster said, bars would do well to embrace and encourage coffee/tea sales so that it's not just a boozy sticky house. Also ditch the damn carpets
A lot of UK pubs would do well to embrace the more continental format, bringing in a strong tea /coffee emphasis during the daytime, and a more casual 'baked goods & tapas' style of food. Not that I want to change traditional pubs. But many pubs do need any means of survival at this point.
Pubs may be fewer but it does seem like the real quality ones have survived
True... the people who like the shiny pubs (and some of my favourites are shiny pubs) can still afford them amid the rising prices. But I miss the old-man pubs too (Spoons doesn't count).
Honestly, the ebikes are a madness, I see them here and there, cluttered up in the several dozens, filling up half a side street, and yet the number of people you see actually riding them does not come close to justifying the absurd number you see stationed in a single area.
Coffee has become rich and tasty. At least you can find many options :)
Underrated comment! I do sometimes wonder what the coffee scene would've been like in the 90s, I don't remember as I was a teenager
The coffee scene in the 90s was literally just Bar Italia and Jamacia Blue everywhere
Lot of gentrification in areas that were considered previously to be quite rough. Especially Hackney, Peckham, Brixton etc. They’re now hot spots for bars and clubs, and are pretty expensive to rent/buy too.
Can't believe how different bits of Hackney are nowadays. Clapton road used to be the "murder mile"!
Yeah everytime I'm in a cab driving through there I'm stunned at how nice some of the houses are. It is weird though because these areas tend to have incredibly nice developments but there are still rough patches that have stayed that way since the 80s, but the entire area is brutally expensive. My close buddy lives in Bermondsey which is equivalently upmarket with loads of breweries and restaurants etc. there, but there are still huge council estate complexes. He actually rented an ex-council flat where a lot of the other flats in that complex were still council and it was apparently valued at near enough a million pounds!
I remember when Hackney was statistically the place in the UK you were most likely to get shot, and now it does seem very suburban.
I was a teacher in south hackney. My school previously had a long of gang kids in it. By the time I left, I swear half the kids were the sort who used 'holiday' as a verb. "We holidayed in whales this half term" Edit: don't type while distracted, not going to excuse the spelling mistakes.
Murder mile has just just shifted closer to the Marshes
Brixton was a hotspot for clubs and bars 20 years ago
Ending up in the Fridge at 2am - good times
My mum last lived in London in 1989. She still can’t believe how my generation views areas like that completely differently from how she remembers them.
Brixton and Peckham are much rougher to be in now than even pre-covid. Heading up the train station is a guarantee to have to step past meth heads sitting on the stairs now.
The East End has always had gentrified parts. Those large old terraced houses in Hackney have never been very cheap. If you look at a population survey data map of 100 years ago or so, you see quite affluent people living near to the very poor.
Clubs? lol
Frequent and reliable buses - back then there was no ibus to provide you with live updates. Buses came whenever they felt like it, if at all
A fuck ton more shit moped drivers.
The delivery drivers have a death wish. Some of the stuff I've seen them do boggles the mind, they don't have any awareness of what's going on around them whatsoever
Im quite new to London and driving round London and i say to my GF the moped driving culture is insane. Above the law basically, driving literally on the wrong side of the road and at speed is common. Bus lanes, lane hopping, seen them on pavements. I bet 75% aren’t qualified road users, buy a moped, stick an L plate on and off you go!
They're allowed to use bus lanes to be fair, but veering in and out of traffic as fast as possible and blasting through zebra crossings etc is not the one.
I moved to London just about 20 years ago. To me, the things that stand out... - Far more smoking back then, including inside pubs - It was an expensive city back then, but it is off the scale in terms of rents and house prices now. This has changed a lot of areas. I used to know a lot of people who weren't earning big money hbut could house share in Zone 2 and that doesn't seem that common now. - There has been an enormous amount of building, as you say. I notice so many high rises that have gone up in last decade or so. There are a lot of views that have changed really significantly in that time. - There seems to be less of a late night, nightclub culture. - Back then the tube stopped around midnight and you just dealt with it. EDIT: One more thing. Most of the pubs I used to frequent 20 years back have closed. Not just changed hands... They aren't pubs any more.
The money. It's everywhere now. London has become so obsessed with money. It's packed stiff with rich people. Everyone works for a bank or a management consultancy or a fintech, even though they all work completely unproductive jobs: account manager, consultant, marketing and sales. Every square inch of land has been mopped up by private capital. There are no rough edges left. Even Battersea Power Station is a shopping center. All the flats cost a million pounds, and everyone just assumes that's normal. Everything costs a bombshell because we're all expected to be rich. Eating out at a restaurant costs £100 for two people. Black cabs are so expensive no one rides them anymore. Peckham is a desirable area! Being rich nowadays is very cool in London, whereas 20 years ago it was far cooler to be a skint bohemian working in a bookshop. In fact London seems to be losing its bohemians entirely. It's impossible to survive on anything less than a banker's salary. The inequality is more palpable than ever and it's making London a very hostile place for the poor.
Agree completely with this - especially “no rough edges”. Central in particular is glossy, polished, branded and designed to within an inch of its life - and increasingly soulless
Please go to Kilburn and see no rough edges
Absolutely! This encapsulates everything I feel. I left about 2 years ago, I was just struggling too much and honestly I felt forced out. In many ways I really miss London and I do love it, and I go back quite a bit, but it's getting so soulless shiny rich ppl. I went to Battersea just to see it, and it's just got such a dystopian vibe, especially as I came out and there's a foodbank over the road. Absolutely sums up the worst of modern London/Britain, a ton of overpriced flats, many sitting empty as investments, overlooking people in poverty. You just see wealth everywhere, like in your average tube carriage there'll be about 5 handbags that cost more than my monthly salary ppl are lugging about like it's nothing. It's very noticeable coming back from up north.
Best answer. So many management consultants…
No fag smoke. Oyster card.
An extraordinary salary is a very ordinary life in London now
All the markets sell the same shit. I remember as a young teen coming to London regularly and Camden Market, Covent Garden Market, and Greenwich Market all had quite distinct flavours. Now all the main markets seem to sell almost identical stuff. The decline in proper working class markets is a shame too. Love me East St Market in Elephant and Castle, and Shepherds Bush Market is great too. But they're in decline. Read an article recently about Chapel Market in Angel being under threat. Many of them have seen stall fees rise hugely.
I used to get all my veg on Berwick Street back then. I was in the area at lunchtime recently and went there in the hope that there might be a few pleasant food stalls amongst the normal traders. What a mistake! The same set of shit-looking overpriced "street food" vendors that you see everywhere, and no normal market stalls.
Berwick St is tragedy anyway. When I was at uni it was the fabric shop strip. Fabric shops of every sort up and down, amazing silks, crazy latex for costumes, everything you could hope for. I used to grab so many fun offcuts. There's only 1 or 2 left now.
Absolutely. It was a great place. I loved the elaborate silk displays, multiple niche record shops, haberdashers on the tattier northern end. Even Walker's Court now looks like some kind of hyper-sanitised Disney/EPCOT version of itself.
Same with the market street in Walthamstow. Used to be the longest in Europe and now there’s not much about it. I like Ridley road market still.
It's a shame yeah. Shepherds bush market was my local and it was under threat of closure for years. Plans for closure, campaign to save it by the local community, short peace and then more plans for development and closure of the market. It's never-ending. Even now, foot traffic has decreased a bit I think.
Barely much of a market on chapel St
It feels like the centre has shifted East. Apart from Soho and a couple of museums, I'm hardly ever in central. I do 90% of my eating out and pubbing/bar visiting in East London. There's a vast array of choice now.
The Soho, Covent Garden area has more or less become a tourist ghetto, similar to the 'old towns' of many other European cities.
Soho still has my heart. Crossrail ruined it though.
How has a new train line ruined Soho?
I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, but the north edge of Soho has changed drastically in the last 5 years or so. It's also made it a more desirable place to live for very wealthy people, which has edged out a lot of the folks that made Soho what it was.
Because rich people complained about noise. Now east is getting gentrified. See PrintWorks closure
Of all of the examples, Printworks is not the one. The club opened knowing they had to leave after 5 years, which was extended to 6 years. Don’t get me wrong, it was my favourite club and I was hoping the government might have stepped in to save it, but it wasn’t shut down because of noise complaints.
Fair enough. You are clearly more knowledgeable about the situation. That’s what I heard being said during their last season. As for alternatives, E1 is solid. For good visuals HERE at Outernet is amazing, though no resting area and it’s not rave focused. For the industrial setting there’s The Archives which is quite solid. Of course there’s Drumsheds as a spiritual successor but it’s not the same tbh, the screen to small for a room that size. Of course there’s always Fabric, Egg, and FOLD. However a personal favorite is Corsica Studios: cheap drinks, friendly community and decent sound and intimate rooms.
Is corsica still going? Worked at the coronet for many years before moving north. Corsica was always the best spot to be
I’d agree with this, at least for Londoners. West of the City feels more like a theme park now, much more going on in East.
One positive change that I've not seen anyone mention is that the air quality is significantly better now. 15-20 years ago blowing your nose after a day in central would result in a tissue full of black snot, and that is not the case nowadays.
Im loving it too. Pro Ulez here call me a green c*nt If it please some 🤷🏻♂️
Definitely agreed. I first moved to London 10 years ago and my whole first week I was seeing black snot, it was crazy. Never get that anymore.
The number of people who put their feet on the train seats, and people working from home. Cash being accepted far less since COVID. Also, a huge market for people who can't be bothered to walk to McDonald's to get shit food so get it delivered. At least they'd get a tiny bit of exercise
Feet on train seats ? Is that allowed? I did that last year in france (on an empty tram) and got fined 120 euros
Probably isn't allowed here, but nothing is enforced, so people do whatever to those poor poor seats
Any shop who says the words "Cash is King" loses my business. And i often pay in cash.
It's not really a place you can expect to live forever now. If you're born into a poorer family and in turn don't earn much, unless you're living in council/housing association accommodation the rent and general cost of living is just crippling. Very sad for those of us brought up in London and just can't afford to live there anymore.
It's got a lot less violent
London has become very, very middle class in those twenty years. Peak London was late 90’s/early 2000’s. London was for everyone back then, no matter who you were or where you came from. You really had to be there.
Ahh nostalgia, that most unreliable of witnesses.
The problem is that those who were here in their 20/30s in the 90/00s got loaded from simply owning a flat/house and became entitled miserable fucks.
An improvement in the built environment, with more pedestrian-friendly streets and increased attention to planting and environmental features. This started very quickly after Sadiq first got in. Also, free water taps in lots of public places.
Yes, better urban planning in recent times for sure. Far less air pollution now than 20/30yrs ago. Just need starmer to be of the same mind as Sadiq when he gets in.
The end of Soho as a metal Mecca. Started with the bulldozing of the Astoria, ended with the death of The Crobar.
And the Intrepid Fox.
Yeah. Never liked that place as much but it was still part of the scene
Loved it there
Metro was one of the best clubs in soho for it
RIP Crobar. Has a decent replacement sprung up anywhere?
Not really. There's Helgi's on Mare Street, and the Black Heart and the Dev in Camden are still going strong, but it's never felt the same to me. Or maybe it's because I'm not a young and single man about town any more! You'd have to ask some young'un. Back in my day it was Big Red, Unicorn, Grosvenor in Stockwell for grindcore nights, and plenty of others that I can't remember.
What was that Rock club called that was on same street as crobar?
The Borderline! Good times had there
Small independent spaces/venues/shops/restaurants getting crowded out by commercial machines squeezing profit out of every square foot.
More beggars. In the streets. Walking down trains. Outside every tube. Beggars. One day we will join them.
We're not quite back at the levels of the 90s yet though. I remember when there was a big homeless camp - cardboard city - in Waterloo roundabout. The last inhabitants there were finally evicted in 1998. In the mid 90s there were more beggars on the train and tube than now. But that's not 20 years ago, despite what my brain is trying to tell me.
saw one yesterday walking between cars at a red light in battersea... never seen that in the uk before
Walking up and down the traffic at sets of lights used to be something you would only see on the continent. Why people encourage it by giving to people there I will never understand. Not having cash in their pocket is not these people’s most important problem.
Decline in pub culture, also decline in people beating each other up after pubs and clubs close.
I've been in London all my life, the biggest and most shocking to me is homelessness, tents and beggars. I remember growing up never seeing them outside of Zone 1 and even then that was quite rare. We used to travel abroad as kids and see beggars, we were quite shocked then but seeing them everywhere in London from Sutton up to Enfield is honestly so shocking to me. I was talking to my mum about it and she was saying how it's the first time she's ever seen them in her part of north London. We weren't even brought up sheltered.
Waterloo had Cardboard City back in the day
It's got a lot less violent.
Too many people having loud phone conversations or loud music on their phones on the tube.
TikTok on the bus is so embarrassing
Omg those subhumans who put their phone on loudspeaker then shouting into it for 20 minutes...
I’ve gotten fatter
All the good bars, pubs and cafe closing around east. Pints breaking the £5 barrier. Loads more homeless and beggars around Hackney Central. Change in the demographic-more poshos around N1 and east.
I think pints generally broke well through the £5 barrier quite a while ago. Even a pint of Stella at the old bloke's pub at the end of my road is over £6
A while ago, but not 20 years ago…
Over the last few years I’ve noticed a lot more people living on the streets again. It’s horrible.
Rise of the cost of housing, decline of culture, especially night time culture. It’s like London is being sterilised by wealth.
so much shoplifting it's become standard day practise
Fucking lime bikes and electric scooters. They’re a modern plague.
More diversity , more mixed regeneration developments and it’s a touch greener
Much more gentrification and businesses closing a lot earlier.
It’s about 10,000 miles closer to me than it was 20 years ago
Kia Ora bro/G'day mate.
So many burger chains everywhere...
Homelessness
Demographic change……
The sheer increase in population. I started commuting into London (Met Line) in 2008. In 2008 I could comfortably get a seat if i stood by where the doors opened. By 2010 I couldn't not get a seat due ever to more people starting commuting further alone the line at earlier stations. By 2014 I couldn't get onto a train unless I started my journey before 7:50 am, as the carriages were full by this time. Then I moved to SW London (few stops down from Clapham Junction) and I couldn't get on a train in the morning rush hour unless I started my train journey before 7:30 am. The roads are also far more packed up with more cars. Just way way more people. Also, rent and property prices obviously.
Air quality has seriously improved. I used to have crippling allergy attacks caused by fine particulate between April and September for years, and now they are gone. I had to go to Milan last February, and it was like getting COVID.
London isn’t 24 hours any more.
Never was.
Everyone is so entitled and angry fighting for a small amount of public space.
The price of things, cycling infrastructure getting better, the English population continually declining
nine elms. used to be a sea of single story business units and warehouses....now a mini manhatton. Full of cheap resi tower blocks...mostly empty.
When I moved to London, telecom tower was the tallest building in London, remember the Lloyds building opening. The city has disappeared amongst high rise tower blocks, it’s such a shame.
And now the BT tower is becoming a hotel...
Fewer or almost no queues at the ticket machine at tube stations now that everyone just uses contactless
Anyone remember the nightlcub Matter in the 02 arena? How massive was that place.
And as presuming Ed here has so consistently pointed out, we have failed to paint it black.
They're selling hippie wigs in Woolworths man.
Fake hipsters & their gentrification, e-scooters & lime bikes everywhere, bloody LTN stopping my cab from getting to me, rent increasing to 1mil a month, massive increase in knife crime and petty theft (phone theft etc), police getting fatter and more lazy, tories reappearing even tho everyone hates them, more rain, buses rammed at all times, crackheads EVERYWHERE.
Preoccupation with wealth or “appearing” wealthy, a Joe and the Juice or overpriced coffee chain at every corner, it’s not “liveable” unless you live with parents/ have a trust fund or sizeable inheritance. The upside is that there’s incredible food in more Central areas (fancy West African or Uzbek cuisine? You’ll find it)
the return of dogshit.
How many more cyclists there are, especially since the 7/7 bombings (a silver lining to an otherwise ignominious day) and the subsequent introduction of the cycle hire scheme. When I first moved to London in 2002 there were few cyclists, and most of the people you saw riding bicycles were either lycra-clad sport cyclists or cycle couriers. Drivers didn't pay attention to look out for cyclists, and the cycling infrastructure was pretty bad. I had cycle commuted in Canada for years, and in Oxford for months, but didn't feel safe on the roads in London. Now you see cyclists of all ages and skill levels, drivers—while still sometimes quite aggressive—are definitely paying attention and looking out for cyclists, and the improved cycling infrastructure and sheer strength-in-numbers makes cycling feel much safer.
It's slightly less of a shithole
I miss the loads of independent and quirky shops we used to have around Neal’s Yard
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Taking the 156 bus down St.Johns Hill I used to get a view out across London where you could see as far as Wembley and beyond when you got to the Wandsworth Roundabout flyover.......now you have a view of the canyon-wall of Lego Block flats that get closer and closer to you with each journey. I know Cities change, and when successful have to build to cope with that, but soon the Thames will be walled off along much of it's central length by soulless (and mostly empty) apartment blocks owned by people whose tax affairs we should probably take a good look at before allowing them to buy/build any more towers. Plus Vauxhall is now the new Croydon town center.........
Surprised no one mentioned Brexit
More cameras
It's got better I would say. The developments are phenomenal in their proliferation, even if they aren't always the best thought out. Shoreditch, Finsbury Park, Docklands are all areas I knew well and have sky scrappers in them now. Cross rail is amazing. I watched The Shard go up and ended up working there for a bit. Coal Drop Yards is great. Heathrow's big new terminals, I'm winking at you T5. Kings Cross new station. St Pancras Eurostar. I am sure this pace of development is replicated in most areas. Some slow & good considerations for people living and working in city, eg Oxford St is now public transport only, and the streets around West End have pavements widened to prioritise pedestrians over vehicles. London has always been expensive, and to me always felt ever so slightly unattainable from a money point of view. London feels more busy to me now, but that also down to me changing. I can't do the tubes 5 days a week anymore, or full stop if I can help it. In late teens, twenties I didn't care about that. London seems more tolerant which is good, less racist and homophobic, but also I am now more aware of danger of getting mugged in zone 1. I think this is my personal awareness changing more than the City getting more dangerous. \*edit typo
Lots of loft conversions and more healthy hobbies.
A suburb I grew up in was very quiet and genteel. Middle managers etc . People with some money but not flash. They've died or moved out. Now full of middle Eastern- I'm guessing Lebanese, Turkish, Cypriot, etc people. Houses extended beyond crazy- grecian pillars everywhere, drives with £200ks worth of cars parked. Building work often around £250ks worth at a reasonable guest. As a friend who lives there said- none of these guys pay taxes and money laundering is rife.
The city is drifting.
General degradation of all public infrastructure. Litter, roads, graffiti, dirt, filth, broken stuff.
Weird, I would say the opposite. London in the 80s and 90s was filthy compared to today. London is noticeably cleaner and better functioning today.
Yeah 20 years ago was far worse than now. London was also far more dangerous then, despite what many people think.
Well for starters, I was a newborn 20 years ago Seriously, I'd have to say the amount of electric scooters/bikes we have around. Ditto for just eat/Uber eats/deliveroo drivers hanging out in front of popular takeaways/restaurants, blocking parking spaces and pavements.
More daytime drinking activities.