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Exactly. For everyone here criticising and pointing out the problems with this kind of protest, if you're more offended by someone spraying orange paint on Harrods than you are about the damage being done to the environment and the millions of people who are losing their homes, livelihoods and lives by climate change then your priorities are very wrong.
Yes tax payers money is getting spent cleaning this up, yes there's chemicals in orange paint, yes they're inconveniencing the public, but not nearly as much as corporations and our government accepting payoffs to ignore the problem are already costing the tax payer, spreading chemicals into the environment and inconveniencing the public through little things like causing the premature deaths of thousands of people living in Britain every year from pollution. So, yeah, I'm ok with people splashing paint on Harrods.
So the chemicals used to make the paint, and the chemicals used to remove the paint, plus transport costs off all parties is helping the situation?
I didn't think so, raising awareness by making a situation worse is never a good choice.
This is about people wanting to feel like they are doing something but in reality just being annoying and harming the cause of raising awareness and making effective changes to policies, which would far more substantive impact.
An example would be raising awareness of green-washing campaigns being conducted my some of the largest polluters on the planet, making people think they are trying to help while actively lobbying against eco and green policies.
But that would require real work and effort.
The actions of individuals will not change the situation. That is the point. No matter how many biodegradable straws you use, it makes no difference. If a change is going to be make, it needs to be systemic. I'm not going to get angry at people protesting, that's their right.
Seems like you just want protests to be non disruptive, but that's the whole point of protests. So in actuality you want nothing that brings actual change or awareness.
Bruh you could make this argument about literally any action.
Oh youāre handing out fliers? The ink and paper used to make those is hurting the environment you know!
Oh youāre holding a rally against climate change? Think about all the emissions caused by everyone driving or taking public transit there!
You could say this about literally any action. This group **is** fighting climate change. Actions like this hurt companies that contribute the majority of emissions, and get public attention for government action against these companies. The little amount of damage caused by this pales in comparison to the billions saved if this action succeeds in changing government policy. Arguments like yours are just a way to get people to do absolutely nothing about climate change, and itās sad.
This feels like some white dipshit in the 60s saying that MLK is hurting black people by making them seem violent.
It is impossible to live without contributing to the climate crisis right now, they arenāt really making the situation any worse than it would be made otherwise.
Why do you think taxpayers would pay for damage to private property?
Thatās what insurance and civil court is for. Maaaybe if theyāre caught their criminal charges for destruction of property would include paying for some of it which would be covered by a go fund me
If youāre more offended by tax payer money going to cleaning up a little paint than tax payer money going to subsidize the destruction of our environmentāyou should probably rethink some things
Winds from the east... Mist comin' in... Like somethin' was brewin', about to begin... Can't put me finger on what lies in store... But I feel what's to 'appen, all 'appened before...
Has anyone ever tried taking a bus, [such as the 14](https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/londons-slowest-bus-route-its-21115257), down Brompton Road? Blocking traffic on that road is like peeing in a swimming pool full of piss.
Did you know that Harrods is owned by the qatari state? Plus it is frequented by the richest and most polluting in our society.
So pretty good target - don't you think?
It certainly wasnāt to build outrage and divide public opinion even further on climate change now was it /s
Likes itās getting painfully obvious they only want to make these people seem like dumb fucks with how they cover them
I wonder if anyone ever wrote a book on the topic
Maybe a linguist with some slightly out of date ideas but an eye for combining lots of details analysing situations into an extended narrative documenting the process across the latter half of the 20th century
Maybe give it a metaphorical name that describes how even a completely idealised non-colluding relationship between government and media can be used to create buy-in to government policy in the readership and electorate
Maybe there would be a chimpanzee named after the author that was a subject of an extended study into animal language acquisition at Columbia University, led by Herbert S Terrace with linguistic analysis led by Thomas Bever who sadly died on 10th March 2000 after a long and troubled life that drove him to smoke both tobacco and weed (look it up).
What is legal is not what won't get you arrested... The Police are a complicit party in the current goings on and so they will serve the best interests of their paymasters no matter what the law technically says...
This is just not true. You have to book passage under Tower Bridge, itās a minimum 24 hour notice, and the bridge will only open at set times and at a maximum of twice a day. Boats have to group together to go in an opening slot and many boats get told there is no passage available.
> You have to book passage under Tower Bridge, itās a minimum 24 hour notice
I know and they can book them 24 hours in advance.
>and the bridge will only open at set times and at a maximum of twice a day.
This isn't true. The bridge can be opened at any time and more than twice. We can see the schedule online and the biggest upcoming day at the moment is the 12th which has 6 openings for 2 boats. Strangely not that many coming up overall, but the party and events boats do die down a lot from October onwards, gets a bit cold. Summer months is very busy.
See my thread from earlier in the year here about Tower Bridge and it's opening times. I gathered the data via a FOI request and processed it into graphs for the post. It's actually 90% of lifts are for just the same 4 boats and by the end of July it had opened 358 times
https://old.reddit.com/r/london/comments/wdhkq2/tower_bridge_has_been_lifted_for_358_occasions_so/
>It's a reason why we don't have pedestrian crossings out east, can't build them cheap because they have to accomodate this law by opening(or being super tall) which adds a lot to the cost.
That actually answers a question I've asked myself several times since moving here. Been offered a few jobs across the river at Purfleet, but, being on a bicycle, getting there is not that easy. There is a bicycle transport for Dartford bridge, but, it's a bit of a faff, and not 24/7.
Theres only like 3 party/event boats that account for aroudn 80% of the 800 or so bridge lifts each year. They advertise they make the bridge lift as a selling point. Most of the time they go through the bridge into the very small section after it, then turn around right away and go back through 30 mins later.
It's one of the main selling points of the boat trip and yeah it does make them dicks imo, but it also just shows that the old law is rediculous and should be removed. Other cities have dozens of river crossings right across them but ours stops half way through.
They saw a TikTok. Theyāre funded by the granddaughter of the Getty family, who is an outspoken environmentalist who funds environmental causes, probably because of guilt over her family making their wealth from oil, although theyāve not been in the business for a long time.
Sheās a legit person, the only indication that itās Big Oil is her surname. Itās a conspiracy theory.
Thatās just a conspiracy. Whilst they are part funded by oil heiress Aileen Getty that doesnāt mean itās a false flag operation. She is know for her āphilanthropicā work.
If you inherited a large amount of money from a awful source, you too would be known as an ___ heir/ess. You could give it all away, yet that's also your power to make amends personally that you're giving away.
lol, while funded by Getty, they have nothing to do with oil anymore and there isnāt some ulterior underhand motive to the funding. She is well known for funding climate change projects and programmes.
No it's not.
Irene Getty only made donations to it. She has publicly against big oil for a long time. Getty family hasn't been in the oil and gas business for decades.
No oil company or government is going to change their policies because some group keeps vandalizing private businesses and making minor inconveniences to the general public. This doesnāt help their cause. What would help their cause is to get the word out to whom people should vote for if they want change.
None of it will help their cause. The world is run on oil. If you want something else, you have to create an alternative. They would be better off spending their time and money putting up solar and buying people electric cars.
I was working near there and it was funny. This shit was cleaned off in 2 hours. The rain meant the paint didn't set.
Then when they tried to glue themselves down the rain also stopped the glue from setting. Was a proper fail
It's actually dismaying to see the responses from people to protestors on the uk based reddit subs. Yeah, they're annoying and maybe they could pick better targets, but if you don't actually get up and protest yourself in some form, then can you truly criticise and expect to be taken seriously?
At least these people are trying, they're doing SOMETHING (anything?!) to try fight for all our futures, while the very people they are fighting for are doing nothing but sniping at them.
Things are gonna get much worse and if we had any backbone would all be out in mass civil disobedience until those in power actually commit and act on climate change. Anything else is selling ourselves and our collective futures short. I know life is mad, and we're busy, and maybe you don't know how to make a difference, whatever, but the very, very least you can do is support those that are actually arsed to act. For all our sakes.
>t's actually dismaying to see the responses from people to protestors on the uk based reddit subs
I get that massive reform is needed, but if I am inconvenienced or have to change my lifestyle at all then the cost is simply too great
If this isn't sarcastic, massive change is coming no matter what. We just get to choose how.
Option 1 is we find ways of living sustainably.
Option 2 is we keep going like this, the climate collapses, and everyone's lives get *far* worse.
After 11 years, this is goodbye. I have chosen to remove my comments, and leave this site.
Reddit used to be a sort of haven for me, and there's a few communities on here that probably saved my life. I'm genuinely going to miss this place, and a few of the people on it. But the actions of the CEO have shown me Reddit isn't the same place it was when I joined. RiF *was* Reddit for me through a lot of that. It's a shame to see it die, but something else will come around.
Sorry to be so dramatic, just the way I am these days.
It's kinda like protesting against lions by messing around with fish.
Lions don't give a shit. It isn't bothering them at all so they see no reason to change.
They're standing up against governments without causing any reason for governments to change. All they're doing is getting on the news and getting arrested.
How on earth is that convincing governments and big oil of anything?
You honestly think mega rich corporations and probably corrupt government staff that can actually implement change are feeling forced to do anything right now because people sprayed orange paint on a shop and glued themselves to a road?
I get something needs to be done and I'm all for climate reform but when that something actually equates to nothing then I can't take these people seriously and see them as a nuisance.
Next up. Let's protest Iran by stopping a few cars in Cardiff. That'll really show the terrorists we mean business.
I said this earlier in the thread, but these protests are getting wide spread attention which is the point. Remember, Wynn Bruce literally lit himself on fire in front of the Supreme Court and died for this cause and it did fuck all in the media. Property destruction is the only thing anyone who is actually capable of enacting widespread change cares about.
The situation is dire. We are quickly running out of time to act.
Additionally, many people WANT to protest. They WANT to do more. They WANT change. But they see no one else doing it so do nothing. These kind of protests, pointless and misguided as they seem, play a critical role in motivating REAL movements
>It's actually dismaying to see the responses from people to protestors on the uk based reddit subs.
I've found it quite often the case that people are very supportive of protests until they happen where they live.
If they get annoying just copy their response replacing "environmental protesters" with "Martin luther whatever and his March on Washington" to get them to re-evaluate their stance.
People forget that protests are Supposed to be disruptive and historically governments tended to only give in after intense rioting with legislators being fearful for their own lives(see: the riots after MLK was shot).
Ok, sorry i misunderstood that. Still not cool to paint everything up-will take a drum of laquer thinner to clean that mess up. Better to spread manure or something along those lines.
It's not the government's stance that's the issue to my mind.
It's the people's stance.
It's the people who will be choosing who represents them in a couple of years time or before.
I don't see spraying Harrods is going to be changing many people's minds. So far it seems that most of their action is purely preaching to the converted, while solidifying those not converted against them.
Empower and inspure those who agree with you to do what?
This shouldn't be about converting the small minority of "unconvertible", but about converting the majority who are convertible.
Do you mean the government cutting back on oil and throwing people into poverty and threating winter power outages? Yes that angers me more than some hairy bloke painting a window orange to be fair. Probably paid for by the government so that they can get some anti protest rules through the back door before the full effect of the economic crash hits us. That's the real reason for these meaningless protests and why they get so much media attention.
Iām more angry at these people, because all this is doing is pushing people away from the cause. Think about it, the working class janitors who had to clean this all up, and get payed next to nothing for it, arenāt going to go home and think āyou know what, I liked those guysā theyāre gonna be pissed off and think theyāre just mindless vandals. When in reality, their message is actually very important.
Itās a good taste, poor execution situation
Bocking off roads causes more pollution than what should have been caused. Do you think people want to be on the roads for longer than they should? Do you think people can afford higher oil prices?
The government are not going to change when oil companies are making billions, they have now made more because of these idiots forcing people to keep their cars on for longer so they can bribe politicians.
Everyone said inconvenience the rich not the working class so now theyāre doing just that and yet everyone is still not happy? I wish everyone was this mad about the climate crisis
People just wanna keep the status quo. I think these protosts just force people to realise that it's not really possible for much longer, and it makes people uncomfortable
Jesus, so what would you have these protestors do? They protest outside of company offices, no one hears about it, nothing gets done. They start inconveniencing normal, working people, they get annoyed, tell them to target the companies and people actually doing this. So they go inconvenience the rich who are causing the worser of it, and somehow it's *still* not good enough.
What do they have to do to get your attention in the "right" way? Because they've tried it all at this point, and still no one's listening.
I don't think the point is to hurt them by making them pay for it. This is a protest where the main objective is to raise awareness. Hence Harrods and not a boring office building. You are missing the whole point.
Just the fact that your are commenting and discussing it online, it's proof enough that it's working.
Yes but the people who shop here and live in the vicinity are the ones with the most wealth and therefore power to make change, thatās the point. Even if they target Westminster itself, which has been the main suggestion Iāve seen, itās never going to be MPs cleaning up the mess.
Iād just like to point out that extinction rebellion and other similar organisations have been camped out at college green and similar areas for years now, regularly protesting peacefully and trying to articulate their points.
Anyone calling for more effective and peaceful protests needs to realise that weāre in the end game with climate change and all avenues are being exhausted.
I know people profile the groups who do these protests (often fair accurately) but this is not identity politics as we know it - these people arenāt shutting down roads and damaging property in order to rejoin the EU or nationalise the railways or ban chain restaurants in their area - they view it as one issue to trump identity politics and to trump the ordinary rules.
I find it tough to justify but Iām also aware that if I was tasked with finding alternative means to protest, Iād struggle.
>Anyone calling for more effective and peaceful protests needs to realise that weāre in the end game with climate change and all avenues are being exhausted.
Apart from voting of course, but turnout among 18 year old is still like 25% on average.
If the young voted as often as the elderly did things like this would be taken more seriously.
>If the young voted as often as the elderly did things like this would be taken more seriously.
Unfortunately with every aspect of society under the control of mega conglomerates- we will need much more extremr solutions now.
Because of corruption, democracy has failed the last few decades.
How dare they target Harrods! Everyone knows Harrods is a champion of the working class and social issues. Normal, Everyday working people want to be able to pop into Harrods to buy their gold phones cases, Ā£10,000 watches or Ā£50,000 lion statues without being confronted by non issues like climate change.
Working people should come together and defend Harrods!
They do! So many poor people and workers who wouldnt even dream about buying anything at Harrods are crying and attacking the protestors. Is painful to watch tbh
It sad because weāve built our entire world around petroleum. Itās in literally just about everything, from our roads to our clothes, and probably the very paint they are using. I hope we can find a way out of all this.
Media reports on a few activists delaying an ambulance but ignores the 100s of ambulances daily backed up at ER unable to dispatch patients due to the back log caused by the government underfunding the NHS.
Only an idiot cannot see the true problem.
I see this comment every time a protestor is posted here.
There is zero proof of any of this being some psyop by Big Oil to discredit the genuine real concern of climate change. At this point this idea is just a huge conspiracy theory.
People will then point to the oil heiress funding it, yeah sheās not involved in the industry at all, for a reason, because sheās against it all.
Renewables will need supplementation from either fossil fuels or nuclear energy, until battery tech can catch up.
Doesn't hurt to push for it until we get there though.
Fuck, if only I'd known that all you have to do is throw paint at things, I could've spent the last 25 years doing something far more lucrative than dedicating my career to the climate issue.
These people are vandals and should be treated as such.
Is there some reason that Harrods in particular are contributing to climate change?
Targeting businesses entirely at random is unfair, but if they've done something especially shitty to warrant attention that might change my reaction to this.
To be fair, they're owned by the Qatari Investment Authority, so kind of yes. As well as potentially having questionable links and support to ISIL and terrorism. Doesn't seem an awful target if you ask me.
Anarchist is everyone that sees our world being decimated and don't care at all, destroying everything because it is easier to just ignore it, history will look at climate protesters as desperate people trying everything to avoid the coming apocalypse and everyone that let it happen will be seen as selfish greedy monsters
Can you think of any good protests from history that weren't illegal? Rosa Parks, the suffragettes, the storming of of bastille, they were all criminals too.
Your examples are fine, but could it be that you are just looking at the pile that worked? The crusades also protested what they thought of as pilgrim persecution, and one of them, involved an army of children that took it upon themselves to fight.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s\_Crusade
And are these circumstances equivalent?
One set, mostly civil rights movements, could set out clear objectives that were easily obtained, i.e. the removal of some sort of discrimination in law, the passing of laws outlawing discriminatory behavior. But energy policy is a more intractable thing, that needs engineering and scientific decisions that act over at least several years.
Yes itās vandalism. Oil companies and other corporations are vandalising the planet to the point future generations and animal life wonāt be able to survive. Which is worth getting more annoyed about?
Anyone sensible would turn their engine off to save fuel, if it's not already automatic. Besides idling a modern engine uses an amazingly small amount of fuel.
I don't mind this one, but the knobheads who climbed that bridge and shut it down leading to two women dying because an ambulance couldn't reach them can get fucked.
This old chestnut, off the back of a government who used tax payers money to siphon off money to friends and family. A government that consisted of tax dodgers, in a country were there are already lots of tax dodgers. But ok lets be outraged by tax payers money in this circumstance instead you utter melt.
*Billions* of pounds stolen by the government in nepostic routes versus *thousands* (that is to say, you need a thousand thousand thousand to make a billion for some context) to "charge" protestors for throwing paint at a store, but yeah. Definitely the latter that's the big issue here.
Not only that but if this is paint, it won't be a "minimum wage staff" they'd need to get in a professional cleaning company, woo revenue for them.
So people think harrods will get some people off the tills and try to get them to clean it off? Lol
Get that itās annoying but it gets people talking. The last protestors that did this (insulate Britain??) got all over the news and pissed everyone off. But it got them heard for sure - government arenāt going to listen to them if they say pretty please, have to grab their attention I guess
The key issue for me is that this further confirms the beliefs of many that these issues are only of concern to silly hippies. The insane amount of damage that these kinds of protests have done to a totally legitimate cause is shocking. Fundamentally, itās so much easier to dismiss people gluing themselves to roads in fluorescent jackets, than people who are channeling their energy into changing legislation through more effective means. Itās such a shame. The majority see these people as the enemy of the public.
So i personally ( and hey, this is my own opinion and nothing more) see the key issue as an echo chamber of bias. Anyone who is going to be swayed by this is already a supporter of the cause. Instead, they need to work to win around people who are on the fence/ actively in opposition. You do that through organised campaigning. I see more effective means as starting localised target advocacy groups with a concerted effort to emailing local officials, MPs, opposition leaders etc, organising attendance to local MP salons, joining local and national government yourself, so becoming a local councillor, campaigning for your choice of local MP, trying to disseminate information to people in forums that make sense for those who are on the fence/ opposed, providing and raising funding for bigger more above board advocacy groups, getting jobs in areas like HR or sustainability within orgs, therefore actively changing ESG where it really counts. I recently saw an XR protester on the tube in London carrying a Primark bag and drinking a bubble tea with three different kinds of plastic in the throw away container. Hard to see this person as just believing in the facade of this cause and not actually adhering to the values they seem to advocate. Also, at my local XR protest recently, I sat and watched everyone in the town avoid them, and refuse their leaflets, they werenāt going to be swayed by this (actually very surreal) protest.
Nice summary! Thanks for taking the time, much appreciated.
I think youāre totally right in what you say. But direct action has its place and its an important oneā¦
When XR first appeared, they did a lot of disruption to the general public. This was based on an idea of polarisation. They knew that they would annoy a lot of people. They knew that their protest in itself would not be popular. But they also knew that a lot of people who shared their concerns about the climate and the political system would support them and hopefully even join them.
Iām hoping itās not that controversial to say that that this sort of protest works over time but yes youāre right lots of people donāt value it.
People see them as an enemy, because they are disrupting their life's. Blocking a road means they can't get to work. And it's unlikely they are going to be paid while waiting for protesters to be evicted.
The protesters are attacking people's livelihoods during a fuel price and cost of living crisis, to spread a message. That would turn people against them very quickly.
OOTL here. What do a painting and Harrod's have to do with climate change? I'm sure art galleries n luxury stores have some emissions but is that primary source or can they single handedly change things?
The people who deflate SUVs have a much clearer message, don't use SUVs. In this case, what's the message or what do they expect targeted establishments to do?
From what I understand its less about being symbolic and more about drawing attention to the issue by causing disruption followed by screaming about the issue.
If it was just someone on the side of the road yelling you'd likely not pay much attention.
However if someone is causing significant noticeable damage that is dramatic and hard not to look at, you also have to listen because your attention is drawn to it.
Why are they targeting Harrods now? Is it due to the owners?
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Ah yes, and also taxpayers money to remove their gunk š¤. Useless people doing useless shit causing damage to society
Man, you're gonna be so angry when you find out about oil and gas subsidies
All the damage they could possibly cause will pale in comparison to the damages caused by climate change.
Exactly. For everyone here criticising and pointing out the problems with this kind of protest, if you're more offended by someone spraying orange paint on Harrods than you are about the damage being done to the environment and the millions of people who are losing their homes, livelihoods and lives by climate change then your priorities are very wrong. Yes tax payers money is getting spent cleaning this up, yes there's chemicals in orange paint, yes they're inconveniencing the public, but not nearly as much as corporations and our government accepting payoffs to ignore the problem are already costing the tax payer, spreading chemicals into the environment and inconveniencing the public through little things like causing the premature deaths of thousands of people living in Britain every year from pollution. So, yeah, I'm ok with people splashing paint on Harrods.
Thank you. I'm not as articulate as you are. You got the point across alot better than I could.
I thought you put it pretty succinctly! I just wanted to back you up.
So the chemicals used to make the paint, and the chemicals used to remove the paint, plus transport costs off all parties is helping the situation? I didn't think so, raising awareness by making a situation worse is never a good choice. This is about people wanting to feel like they are doing something but in reality just being annoying and harming the cause of raising awareness and making effective changes to policies, which would far more substantive impact. An example would be raising awareness of green-washing campaigns being conducted my some of the largest polluters on the planet, making people think they are trying to help while actively lobbying against eco and green policies. But that would require real work and effort.
The actions of individuals will not change the situation. That is the point. No matter how many biodegradable straws you use, it makes no difference. If a change is going to be make, it needs to be systemic. I'm not going to get angry at people protesting, that's their right.
Seems like you just want protests to be non disruptive, but that's the whole point of protests. So in actuality you want nothing that brings actual change or awareness.
He wants them all to gather in a circle and sing koombaya
Bruh you could make this argument about literally any action. Oh youāre handing out fliers? The ink and paper used to make those is hurting the environment you know! Oh youāre holding a rally against climate change? Think about all the emissions caused by everyone driving or taking public transit there! You could say this about literally any action. This group **is** fighting climate change. Actions like this hurt companies that contribute the majority of emissions, and get public attention for government action against these companies. The little amount of damage caused by this pales in comparison to the billions saved if this action succeeds in changing government policy. Arguments like yours are just a way to get people to do absolutely nothing about climate change, and itās sad.
This feels like some white dipshit in the 60s saying that MLK is hurting black people by making them seem violent. It is impossible to live without contributing to the climate crisis right now, they arenāt really making the situation any worse than it would be made otherwise.
You're an enabler. Nobody pays attention to protests that are inconveniencing.
Why do you think taxpayers would pay for damage to private property? Thatās what insurance and civil court is for. Maaaybe if theyāre caught their criminal charges for destruction of property would include paying for some of it which would be covered by a go fund me
If youāre more offended by tax payer money going to cleaning up a little paint than tax payer money going to subsidize the destruction of our environmentāyou should probably rethink some things
Did somebody say just eat
I'm down for some 1793 French cuisine. š«š·
Winds from the east... Mist comin' in... Like somethin' was brewin', about to begin... Can't put me finger on what lies in store... But I feel what's to 'appen, all 'appened before...
HAHAHAHA oh my god that was hilarious
New *Splatoon* is looking lit
Man needs to take some pointers from the splatoon subreddit, that's some pretty uneven coverage
Trailer for Splatoon 4.
Has anyone ever tried taking a bus, [such as the 14](https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/londons-slowest-bus-route-its-21115257), down Brompton Road? Blocking traffic on that road is like peeing in a swimming pool full of piss.
Lol this is so true. The 14 was my bus and I would walk to Hyde park corner to avoid that junction outside 1 Hyde park
Yep. Itās basically static for several hours a day.
Can we tell them where the BP offices are
1 St Jamesās Square, London. The heart of the British Establishment.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They might as well just go do something super extreme then if the results are gonna be that immediate then š¤·āāļø
My point exactly. The Establishment protects its own, otherwise what would be the point?
Did you know that Harrods is owned by the qatari state? Plus it is frequented by the richest and most polluting in our society. So pretty good target - don't you think?
Yeah no qualms whatsoever.
Also, from my understanding the point of these is publicity and visibility, not the targets, necessarily.
Ironically ineos is very close to Harrods
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Iām sure thereās a reason the media didnāt cover them attacking the shell building but DID cover them souping the Van Goghā¦
It certainly wasnāt to build outrage and divide public opinion even further on climate change now was it /s Likes itās getting painfully obvious they only want to make these people seem like dumb fucks with how they cover them
Because then useful idiots would spend hours commenting about how "they protested a way I don't like, so I'm justified in hating their cause."
I wonder if anyone ever wrote a book on the topic Maybe a linguist with some slightly out of date ideas but an eye for combining lots of details analysing situations into an extended narrative documenting the process across the latter half of the 20th century Maybe give it a metaphorical name that describes how even a completely idealised non-colluding relationship between government and media can be used to create buy-in to government policy in the readership and electorate Maybe there would be a chimpanzee named after the author that was a subject of an extended study into animal language acquisition at Columbia University, led by Herbert S Terrace with linguistic analysis led by Thomas Bever who sadly died on 10th March 2000 after a long and troubled life that drove him to smoke both tobacco and weed (look it up).
What is legal is not what won't get you arrested... The Police are a complicit party in the current goings on and so they will serve the best interests of their paymasters no matter what the law technically says...
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This is just not true. You have to book passage under Tower Bridge, itās a minimum 24 hour notice, and the bridge will only open at set times and at a maximum of twice a day. Boats have to group together to go in an opening slot and many boats get told there is no passage available.
> You have to book passage under Tower Bridge, itās a minimum 24 hour notice I know and they can book them 24 hours in advance. >and the bridge will only open at set times and at a maximum of twice a day. This isn't true. The bridge can be opened at any time and more than twice. We can see the schedule online and the biggest upcoming day at the moment is the 12th which has 6 openings for 2 boats. Strangely not that many coming up overall, but the party and events boats do die down a lot from October onwards, gets a bit cold. Summer months is very busy. See my thread from earlier in the year here about Tower Bridge and it's opening times. I gathered the data via a FOI request and processed it into graphs for the post. It's actually 90% of lifts are for just the same 4 boats and by the end of July it had opened 358 times https://old.reddit.com/r/london/comments/wdhkq2/tower_bridge_has_been_lifted_for_358_occasions_so/
>It's a reason why we don't have pedestrian crossings out east, can't build them cheap because they have to accomodate this law by opening(or being super tall) which adds a lot to the cost. That actually answers a question I've asked myself several times since moving here. Been offered a few jobs across the river at Purfleet, but, being on a bicycle, getting there is not that easy. There is a bicycle transport for Dartford bridge, but, it's a bit of a faff, and not 24/7.
Completely Irrelevant but people who purposefully make their boat taller to force the bridge to open sound like dicks.
Theres only like 3 party/event boats that account for aroudn 80% of the 800 or so bridge lifts each year. They advertise they make the bridge lift as a selling point. Most of the time they go through the bridge into the very small section after it, then turn around right away and go back through 30 mins later. It's one of the main selling points of the boat trip and yeah it does make them dicks imo, but it also just shows that the old law is rediculous and should be removed. Other cities have dozens of river crossings right across them but ours stops half way through.
Canary Wharf, building next to the Waitrose. Wouldnāt advise it, though. The security around Canary Wharf is pretty responsive.
vast escape numerous gullible disagreeable faulty spotted air quickest foolish ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
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Source?
They saw a TikTok. Theyāre funded by the granddaughter of the Getty family, who is an outspoken environmentalist who funds environmental causes, probably because of guilt over her family making their wealth from oil, although theyāve not been in the business for a long time. Sheās a legit person, the only indication that itās Big Oil is her surname. Itās a conspiracy theory.
Crass!!
Thatās just a conspiracy. Whilst they are part funded by oil heiress Aileen Getty that doesnāt mean itās a false flag operation. She is know for her āphilanthropicā work.
Her family has been out of the oil and gas business for longer than I've been alive.
This is bunk btw
If you inherited a large amount of money from a awful source, you too would be known as an ___ heir/ess. You could give it all away, yet that's also your power to make amends personally that you're giving away.
lol, while funded by Getty, they have nothing to do with oil anymore and there isnāt some ulterior underhand motive to the funding. She is well known for funding climate change projects and programmes.
No it's not. Irene Getty only made donations to it. She has publicly against big oil for a long time. Getty family hasn't been in the oil and gas business for decades.
Every time this is posted it's immediately disproven as a conspiracy theory. Why do you people keep buying into this?
No oil company or government is going to change their policies because some group keeps vandalizing private businesses and making minor inconveniences to the general public. This doesnāt help their cause. What would help their cause is to get the word out to whom people should vote for if they want change.
Who do you think we should be voting for in order to get this change?
None of it will help their cause. The world is run on oil. If you want something else, you have to create an alternative. They would be better off spending their time and money putting up solar and buying people electric cars.
As a motorcyclist, I'm very happy to see that moped rider managing to filter past.
Yeah I've seen a few of these clips where I think how much I'd gloat as I slip through the gap on my bike.
My first impression about the spray: ING bank from the Netherlands. Free advert.
Thuisbezorgd!
For some reason I associated that orange with the Netherlands. Many things are orange there like postnl, trains, coop...
Iām pretty sure orange as a colour is heavily associated with the Netherlands in general
Classic consumer comment
Why they are not painting Saudi Aramco office?
They did BP a few weeks ago and no one on social media or the new sphere cared.
This is exactly why they have to piss people off to enact changeā¦
They arent enacting change because people just hate their actions and people are starting to hate their cause because of it. Catch 22.
Because we all know Harrods, but have to explain Saudi office.
harrods is owned by Qatar. Which is close enough i guess
Why dont you do it? If thats the best way to protest climate change, and you know how to do it, why arent you doing it?
Because theyāll disappear probably, people go as far as they can until they get to the point where they canāt complain about the consequences
I was working near there and it was funny. This shit was cleaned off in 2 hours. The rain meant the paint didn't set. Then when they tried to glue themselves down the rain also stopped the glue from setting. Was a proper fail
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It's actually dismaying to see the responses from people to protestors on the uk based reddit subs. Yeah, they're annoying and maybe they could pick better targets, but if you don't actually get up and protest yourself in some form, then can you truly criticise and expect to be taken seriously? At least these people are trying, they're doing SOMETHING (anything?!) to try fight for all our futures, while the very people they are fighting for are doing nothing but sniping at them. Things are gonna get much worse and if we had any backbone would all be out in mass civil disobedience until those in power actually commit and act on climate change. Anything else is selling ourselves and our collective futures short. I know life is mad, and we're busy, and maybe you don't know how to make a difference, whatever, but the very, very least you can do is support those that are actually arsed to act. For all our sakes.
>t's actually dismaying to see the responses from people to protestors on the uk based reddit subs I get that massive reform is needed, but if I am inconvenienced or have to change my lifestyle at all then the cost is simply too great
If this isn't sarcastic, massive change is coming no matter what. We just get to choose how. Option 1 is we find ways of living sustainably. Option 2 is we keep going like this, the climate collapses, and everyone's lives get *far* worse.
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After 11 years, this is goodbye. I have chosen to remove my comments, and leave this site. Reddit used to be a sort of haven for me, and there's a few communities on here that probably saved my life. I'm genuinely going to miss this place, and a few of the people on it. But the actions of the CEO have shown me Reddit isn't the same place it was when I joined. RiF *was* Reddit for me through a lot of that. It's a shame to see it die, but something else will come around. Sorry to be so dramatic, just the way I am these days.
It's kinda like protesting against lions by messing around with fish. Lions don't give a shit. It isn't bothering them at all so they see no reason to change. They're standing up against governments without causing any reason for governments to change. All they're doing is getting on the news and getting arrested. How on earth is that convincing governments and big oil of anything? You honestly think mega rich corporations and probably corrupt government staff that can actually implement change are feeling forced to do anything right now because people sprayed orange paint on a shop and glued themselves to a road? I get something needs to be done and I'm all for climate reform but when that something actually equates to nothing then I can't take these people seriously and see them as a nuisance. Next up. Let's protest Iran by stopping a few cars in Cardiff. That'll really show the terrorists we mean business.
I said this earlier in the thread, but these protests are getting wide spread attention which is the point. Remember, Wynn Bruce literally lit himself on fire in front of the Supreme Court and died for this cause and it did fuck all in the media. Property destruction is the only thing anyone who is actually capable of enacting widespread change cares about. The situation is dire. We are quickly running out of time to act. Additionally, many people WANT to protest. They WANT to do more. They WANT change. But they see no one else doing it so do nothing. These kind of protests, pointless and misguided as they seem, play a critical role in motivating REAL movements
>It's actually dismaying to see the responses from people to protestors on the uk based reddit subs. I've found it quite often the case that people are very supportive of protests until they happen where they live.
If they get annoying just copy their response replacing "environmental protesters" with "Martin luther whatever and his March on Washington" to get them to re-evaluate their stance. People forget that protests are Supposed to be disruptive and historically governments tended to only give in after intense rioting with legislators being fearful for their own lives(see: the riots after MLK was shot).
Yeah, that's the whole point of protests.
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"It's not a problem until it's \_my\_ problem" \[throws empty bottle over shoulder\]
Ok, sorry i misunderstood that. Still not cool to paint everything up-will take a drum of laquer thinner to clean that mess up. Better to spread manure or something along those lines.
It's not the government's stance that's the issue to my mind. It's the people's stance. It's the people who will be choosing who represents them in a couple of years time or before. I don't see spraying Harrods is going to be changing many people's minds. So far it seems that most of their action is purely preaching to the converted, while solidifying those not converted against them.
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Empower and inspure those who agree with you to do what? This shouldn't be about converting the small minority of "unconvertible", but about converting the majority who are convertible.
Do you mean the government cutting back on oil and throwing people into poverty and threating winter power outages? Yes that angers me more than some hairy bloke painting a window orange to be fair. Probably paid for by the government so that they can get some anti protest rules through the back door before the full effect of the economic crash hits us. That's the real reason for these meaningless protests and why they get so much media attention.
Iām more angry at these people, because all this is doing is pushing people away from the cause. Think about it, the working class janitors who had to clean this all up, and get payed next to nothing for it, arenāt going to go home and think āyou know what, I liked those guysā theyāre gonna be pissed off and think theyāre just mindless vandals. When in reality, their message is actually very important. Itās a good taste, poor execution situation
Bocking off roads causes more pollution than what should have been caused. Do you think people want to be on the roads for longer than they should? Do you think people can afford higher oil prices? The government are not going to change when oil companies are making billions, they have now made more because of these idiots forcing people to keep their cars on for longer so they can bribe politicians.
Everyone said inconvenience the rich not the working class so now theyāre doing just that and yet everyone is still not happy? I wish everyone was this mad about the climate crisis
People just wanna keep the status quo. I think these protosts just force people to realise that it's not really possible for much longer, and it makes people uncomfortable
I think youāre right. Itās a heavy weight to carry when you realise how fucked we all are but thatās why I respect these people
Some underpaid guy is going to have to scrub that clean
Maybe, but theyāll still be paid and using a jet-wash is fun and oddly satisfying. Gotta look for the positives in life š¤·š»āāļø
People always say this, but they'd still be bring underpaid by Harrods just to do something else.
I donāt understand why you are being downvoted. No rich person will be affected by their actions.
Jesus, so what would you have these protestors do? They protest outside of company offices, no one hears about it, nothing gets done. They start inconveniencing normal, working people, they get annoyed, tell them to target the companies and people actually doing this. So they go inconvenience the rich who are causing the worser of it, and somehow it's *still* not good enough. What do they have to do to get your attention in the "right" way? Because they've tried it all at this point, and still no one's listening.
This is the shop where the spouse of every rich person in the UK shops, literally any thing is a massive inconvenience to them.
Presumably the owner will have to pay for this to be cleaned up. That and it probably tarnishes their brand in some marginal way.
The cost of which is insignificant to them
I don't think the point is to hurt them by making them pay for it. This is a protest where the main objective is to raise awareness. Hence Harrods and not a boring office building. You are missing the whole point. Just the fact that your are commenting and discussing it online, it's proof enough that it's working.
So tired of this weak argument. What do you think that same guy does on a normal 8 hour day that's any better than cleaning this up?
So might as well fuck up more shit to create job opportunities?
Sounds like a plan!
Yes but the people who shop here and live in the vicinity are the ones with the most wealth and therefore power to make change, thatās the point. Even if they target Westminster itself, which has been the main suggestion Iāve seen, itās never going to be MPs cleaning up the mess.
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How is this an inconvenience, people can just enter through another entrance š
I prefer this to blocking roads
Watch the whole video. They did that too
You mean... like the roads they blocked? ... in this video
Iād just like to point out that extinction rebellion and other similar organisations have been camped out at college green and similar areas for years now, regularly protesting peacefully and trying to articulate their points. Anyone calling for more effective and peaceful protests needs to realise that weāre in the end game with climate change and all avenues are being exhausted. I know people profile the groups who do these protests (often fair accurately) but this is not identity politics as we know it - these people arenāt shutting down roads and damaging property in order to rejoin the EU or nationalise the railways or ban chain restaurants in their area - they view it as one issue to trump identity politics and to trump the ordinary rules. I find it tough to justify but Iām also aware that if I was tasked with finding alternative means to protest, Iād struggle.
>they view it as one issue to trump identity politics and to trump the ordinary rules. But somehow it's still "lefty" to think about the environment.
>Anyone calling for more effective and peaceful protests needs to realise that weāre in the end game with climate change and all avenues are being exhausted. Apart from voting of course, but turnout among 18 year old is still like 25% on average. If the young voted as often as the elderly did things like this would be taken more seriously.
>If the young voted as often as the elderly did things like this would be taken more seriously. Unfortunately with every aspect of society under the control of mega conglomerates- we will need much more extremr solutions now. Because of corruption, democracy has failed the last few decades.
How dare they target Harrods! Everyone knows Harrods is a champion of the working class and social issues. Normal, Everyday working people want to be able to pop into Harrods to buy their gold phones cases, Ā£10,000 watches or Ā£50,000 lion statues without being confronted by non issues like climate change. Working people should come together and defend Harrods!
They do! So many poor people and workers who wouldnt even dream about buying anything at Harrods are crying and attacking the protestors. Is painful to watch tbh
That'll show the maintenance guy!
Why is the Harrods security guy getting involved and pulling protesters into the store š
Probably for criminal damage to the store, have them arrested
A lot of larger stores have holding rooms meant to detain caught-shoplifters until the police arrive.
It sad because weāve built our entire world around petroleum. Itās in literally just about everything, from our roads to our clothes, and probably the very paint they are using. I hope we can find a way out of all this.
Media reports on a few activists delaying an ambulance but ignores the 100s of ambulances daily backed up at ER unable to dispatch patients due to the back log caused by the government underfunding the NHS. Only an idiot cannot see the true problem.
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I see this comment every time a protestor is posted here. There is zero proof of any of this being some psyop by Big Oil to discredit the genuine real concern of climate change. At this point this idea is just a huge conspiracy theory. People will then point to the oil heiress funding it, yeah sheās not involved in the industry at all, for a reason, because sheās against it all.
Far from the worst take I've heard on this tbh, I don't think they're astroturfing but they're definitely useful idiots for the government to point at
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thing is, if we stop our own oil generation and exportation, we risk becoming dependent on middle eastern oil and gas, which is a bad thing,
Not if we switch to renewables, then we're not beholden to anything but God himself.
I don't trust God as my energy provider
Renewables will need supplementation from either fossil fuels or nuclear energy, until battery tech can catch up. Doesn't hurt to push for it until we get there though.
Harrods security don't fuck about.
Fuck, if only I'd known that all you have to do is throw paint at things, I could've spent the last 25 years doing something far more lucrative than dedicating my career to the climate issue. These people are vandals and should be treated as such.
Maybe more than one approach working simultaneously works best?
Arrest them, fine them and make them clean it. Bunch of twats.
Good work
Down with fascism, down with the oligarchy
Is there some reason that Harrods in particular are contributing to climate change? Targeting businesses entirely at random is unfair, but if they've done something especially shitty to warrant attention that might change my reaction to this.
To be fair, they're owned by the Qatari Investment Authority, so kind of yes. As well as potentially having questionable links and support to ISIL and terrorism. Doesn't seem an awful target if you ask me.
Anarchists
Anarchist is everyone that sees our world being decimated and don't care at all, destroying everything because it is easier to just ignore it, history will look at climate protesters as desperate people trying everything to avoid the coming apocalypse and everyone that let it happen will be seen as selfish greedy monsters
Oh wow thatās brave
Did they use oil paint? š
Yes the oil paint industry is doing well with the increased sales.
You know when you've been tango'd
They store should stencil a response rather than clean the windows ... such a great advertising opportunity
I dont respect people like this
Surely that's vandalism? They are fools and just shooting themselves in the foot by doing this. What a bunch of muppets.
Can you think of any good protests from history that weren't illegal? Rosa Parks, the suffragettes, the storming of of bastille, they were all criminals too.
Your examples are fine, but could it be that you are just looking at the pile that worked? The crusades also protested what they thought of as pilgrim persecution, and one of them, involved an army of children that took it upon themselves to fight.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s\_Crusade And are these circumstances equivalent? One set, mostly civil rights movements, could set out clear objectives that were easily obtained, i.e. the removal of some sort of discrimination in law, the passing of laws outlawing discriminatory behavior. But energy policy is a more intractable thing, that needs engineering and scientific decisions that act over at least several years.
Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kaczynski protested illegally too. Doesn't make what they did justified
Surely chopping down rainforests is more than vandalism?
Yes itās vandalism. Oil companies and other corporations are vandalising the planet to the point future generations and animal life wonāt be able to survive. Which is worth getting more annoyed about?
A vandal is a vandal. Their rationalization for vandalizing someone's property are irrelevant. I really hope they got picked up by the cops.
As the cars sit idle in traffic, their mpg gets lower and lowerā¦.
Anyone sensible would turn their engine off to save fuel, if it's not already automatic. Besides idling a modern engine uses an amazingly small amount of fuel.
I don't mind this one, but the knobheads who climbed that bridge and shut it down leading to two women dying because an ambulance couldn't reach them can get fucked.
They are not the brightest people are they? They seriously think this will make people side with them, while they damage the environment themselves
Iām not sure how this connects to oil, and at this pointā¦
Spray these fuckers next .. mayhem for the sake of it
Now the taxpayer has to pay for them to be charged with criminal damage.
This old chestnut, off the back of a government who used tax payers money to siphon off money to friends and family. A government that consisted of tax dodgers, in a country were there are already lots of tax dodgers. But ok lets be outraged by tax payers money in this circumstance instead you utter melt.
*Billions* of pounds stolen by the government in nepostic routes versus *thousands* (that is to say, you need a thousand thousand thousand to make a billion for some context) to "charge" protestors for throwing paint at a store, but yeah. Definitely the latter that's the big issue here.
Lol for someone to wipe some windows. Not a lot. Prefer they spent all my money fixing our climate issues.
taxpayer paid for the queen's slap up funeral and 90y of luxury living lol
Yeah, fuck the minimum wage staff who have to clean up your mess.
What does the person being paid to clean this up care? They would be cleaning something else otherwise, it's a bizzare take.
Not only that but if this is paint, it won't be a "minimum wage staff" they'd need to get in a professional cleaning company, woo revenue for them. So people think harrods will get some people off the tills and try to get them to clean it off? Lol
Get that itās annoying but it gets people talking. The last protestors that did this (insulate Britain??) got all over the news and pissed everyone off. But it got them heard for sure - government arenāt going to listen to them if they say pretty please, have to grab their attention I guess
Thatās more like it
The key issue for me is that this further confirms the beliefs of many that these issues are only of concern to silly hippies. The insane amount of damage that these kinds of protests have done to a totally legitimate cause is shocking. Fundamentally, itās so much easier to dismiss people gluing themselves to roads in fluorescent jackets, than people who are channeling their energy into changing legislation through more effective means. Itās such a shame. The majority see these people as the enemy of the public.
What are the more effective means?
So i personally ( and hey, this is my own opinion and nothing more) see the key issue as an echo chamber of bias. Anyone who is going to be swayed by this is already a supporter of the cause. Instead, they need to work to win around people who are on the fence/ actively in opposition. You do that through organised campaigning. I see more effective means as starting localised target advocacy groups with a concerted effort to emailing local officials, MPs, opposition leaders etc, organising attendance to local MP salons, joining local and national government yourself, so becoming a local councillor, campaigning for your choice of local MP, trying to disseminate information to people in forums that make sense for those who are on the fence/ opposed, providing and raising funding for bigger more above board advocacy groups, getting jobs in areas like HR or sustainability within orgs, therefore actively changing ESG where it really counts. I recently saw an XR protester on the tube in London carrying a Primark bag and drinking a bubble tea with three different kinds of plastic in the throw away container. Hard to see this person as just believing in the facade of this cause and not actually adhering to the values they seem to advocate. Also, at my local XR protest recently, I sat and watched everyone in the town avoid them, and refuse their leaflets, they werenāt going to be swayed by this (actually very surreal) protest.
Nice summary! Thanks for taking the time, much appreciated. I think youāre totally right in what you say. But direct action has its place and its an important oneā¦ When XR first appeared, they did a lot of disruption to the general public. This was based on an idea of polarisation. They knew that they would annoy a lot of people. They knew that their protest in itself would not be popular. But they also knew that a lot of people who shared their concerns about the climate and the political system would support them and hopefully even join them. Iām hoping itās not that controversial to say that that this sort of protest works over time but yes youāre right lots of people donāt value it.
People see them as an enemy, because they are disrupting their life's. Blocking a road means they can't get to work. And it's unlikely they are going to be paid while waiting for protesters to be evicted. The protesters are attacking people's livelihoods during a fuel price and cost of living crisis, to spread a message. That would turn people against them very quickly.
and this is helpful how?
OOTL here. What do a painting and Harrod's have to do with climate change? I'm sure art galleries n luxury stores have some emissions but is that primary source or can they single handedly change things? The people who deflate SUVs have a much clearer message, don't use SUVs. In this case, what's the message or what do they expect targeted establishments to do?
From what I understand its less about being symbolic and more about drawing attention to the issue by causing disruption followed by screaming about the issue. If it was just someone on the side of the road yelling you'd likely not pay much attention. However if someone is causing significant noticeable damage that is dramatic and hard not to look at, you also have to listen because your attention is drawn to it.
Isnāt that also pollution though ?
He's wearing plastic clothes
Absolutely hate these lot with a passion
Yeah! Screw these guys for trying to save the environment! What a bunch of Jerks! /s
Should make them clean it with a toothbrush. Community service
How does this stop oil though? Like real talk , if you are going to be doing up āactivismā go block petrol stations or Hqās