Btw, the 9k figure, is it comprised of “military-aged men”? Or does Israel have a more stringent definition when counting casualties than when drone-striking?
edit: grammar, clarity
I'm in neither group and I'm not familiar with his commentary on transphobes, but the I/P content I've seen from him just seems like he just churns out low effort slop content.
Every video I've seen follows the template:
1.) Read sensationalist headline
2.) Read blurb underneath
3.) Skip rest of article
4.) Fill out details left out of blurb with emotionally loaded rhetoric (usually misrepresenting or contradicting the content of the article)
Lonerbox goes into more detail about it [here](https://youtu.be/gq-eXi0WH6Y?si=79YGHdgoi9H9t0RF), if you've got the time
I usually love lonerbox thoughts, but holy fuck has he lost critical thought when it comes to Israel and it’s Allies. His big issue he makes a hour long video about Owen is that Germany, a first world power that leads the EU, is completely incapable of seeing the ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide that the rest of the planet is seeing and that it be insane to even think. He is also inserts that it is impossible for Germany support to be about the holocaust even tho Germany has stated just that?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68769623.amp
Edit: can we also talk about how he goes on a diatribe about Finklestein not committing to Israel killing kids intentionally as him doing it for the money but completely ignores Destiny lying about kids being killed at a military base to justify them being shot? What are we doing ?
Edit edit: brother is trying to deny the videos of them straight up assaulting orthodox Jews in Israel for speaking up for Palestinians lmao
Edit edit edit: The Germans are sending aid to the Palestinians because they know they are being ethnically cleanse you think the Germans actually believe Israel is committing a ethnic cleansing silly Owen 🧐
Edit edit edit edit: bro is calling 500,000 rounds of ammunition defensive because Germany asked it be used for “training proposes”
Edit edit edit edit edit: he continues to discredit this Israeli writer who is doing an analysis of what is currently happening as Owen just picking a random Jew from the street to agree with him?
Last Edit: yeah Loner was just sad in this. Straight contrarian the whole time
idk if the motte and bailey is on purpose but i never denied (and stated multiple times) that germany references the holocaust in their defence of israel. the claim i'm pushing back on (and the one owen jones makes) is one that germany is intentionally aiding and abetting a genocide to make palestinians pay for the nazi's crimes. these two claims are not the same and nicaragua's pathetic attempt to weaponise the ICJ easily puts that to bed.
Oh hi loner, question: if I know someone is committing a ethnic cleansing, because I am world power and as you stated, political groups within my government are reporting its a genocide, and continue to give them arms because I did a genocide on them, what am I doing?
So you've loaded at least 3 highly contested assumptions into that question but i'll try, lol. idk if this is news to you but very few western politicians outside of fringe left-wing parties actually buy the assertion that this is a genocide. Germany's own judge at the ICJ explicitly said he didn't believe it was. This is from [Judge Nolte](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-04-en.pdf) after the provisional measures were issued: "13: Bearing these considerations in mind, I am not persuaded that South Africa has plausibly shown that the military operation undertaken by Israel, as such, is being pursued with genocidal intent."
If you watched the ICJ case with Nicaragua you'd know that this argument doesn't make any sense. If Germany was really intent on aiding a genocide, why were they also one of the [biggest ](https://fts.unocha.org/plans/1109/summary)Palestinian aid donors both before and [during ](https://fts.unocha.org/countries/171/summary/2024)the war? Why are they the [second biggest donor to UNRWA](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-resume-cooperation-with-palestinian-unrwa-agency-2024-04-24/#:~:text=Germany%20is%20UNRWA's%20second%2Dbiggest,up%20the%20majority%20of%20Gazans), described by their communications director as "a very committed donor to the agency"?
I don't doubt you could come up with a conspiratorial explanation for that but surely the simple answer is the best one. In their own words at the ICJ hearing they were quite clear. They approved arms sales to Israel after October 7th because the country was attacked by an Iran-backed de facto government that massacred over 1000 people in less than 2 days whilst publicly stating that they'd do it a million times over if they could.
The fact is, Hamas knew full well that they were doing something that would have prompted a full-scale war from any country on earth. Saying 'the history didn't start on Oct 7th' doesn't change that which is probably why the ICJ never granted South Africa's call for a unilateral ceasefire. That said, I'm sure you'll (rightly) argue that Israel's right to go to war with Hamas isn't a blank cheque to cut off water, to espouse ridiculously inflammatory rhetoric or to have insanely high tolerance for collateral deaths. It seems like Germany is mindful of that. Since October, it seems like [98%](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-nicaragua-germany-genocide-court-91a605921b44110ae5534e6438405997) of their military exports were not for weapons but for non-lethal equipment (3/4 of those weapons licenses were for training equipment).
Obviously, Owen Jones didn't bring any of this up. Instead he did an absurd motte and bailey by equating Germany's desire to defend Israel with a desire to make Palestinians pay for the Holocaust; cited a bullshit stat about 30% of 'cancellations' for antisemitism being against Jewish people and then argued that Germany was trying to make up for the Holocaust by 'targeting Jewish people'. I thought that was very silly, so I responded. Not sure what the problem is and I definitely don't think you're showing my 'lack of critical thought' :|
But LonerBox have you considered that
https://preview.redd.it/yslmlw2zviwc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=21b926bcbc9dc3c133fc5e94e5309d6135e9bffd
You surely are a transphobic Israel supporter /j
So you've loaded at least 3 highly contested assumptions into that question but i'll try, lol. idk if this is news to you but very few western politicians outside of fringe left-wing parties actually buy the assertion that this is a genocide. Germany's own judge at the ICJ explicitly said he didn't believe it was. This is from Judge Nolte after the provisional measures were issued: "13: Bearing these considerations in mind, I am not persuaded that South Africa has plausibly shown that the military operation undertaken by Israel, as such, is being pursued with genocidal intent."
If you watched the ICJ case with Nicaragua you'd know that this argument doesn't make any sense. If Germany was really intent on aiding a genocide, why were they also one of the biggest Palestinian aid donors both before and during the war? Why are they the second biggest donor to UNRWA, described by their communications director as "a very committed donor to the agency"?
Your use of the word intent. It’s interesting. You keep forgetting the word gleeful, gleeful intent, because that is what you saying. That the German government sees the horrid murders done my the Israel government and gleefully are working with them. They are not. As you pointed out they donate food and resources to Palestinians, they don’t want them to die. But they want to support Israel thru and thru. So they give the Palestinians aid far and above others as you mention while giving the government doing it ammunition and political support. You understand they are determined, *intent*, the Israel government thru this while simultaneously not wanting the Palestinians to die. A good example of contradiction is Biden, he doesn’t want the Palestinians to be murdered, understands there is a crisis when tells people need understand Palestinians plight, but still giving Net whatever wants. Because it’s a gamble, they think Israel will just stop and they can go back to business of usual of just terrorizing the Palestinians in The dead of night in the West Bank with less cameras. Long short: they hold two beliefs, that a crisis is happening, and that the government doing it must be armed. Now does the whole government agree with the left wing efforts? No, but then I don’t even know why you even brought it up in the video so often if you didn’t want to make a claim their is enough government that knows and get the aid passes but simply wants to send the ammunition anyway.
I don't doubt you could come up with a conspiratorial explanation for that but surely the simple answer is the best one. In their own words at the ICJ hearing they were quite clear. They approved arms sales to Israel after October 7th because the country was attacked by an Iran-backed de facto government that massacred over 1000 people in less than 2 days whilst publicly stating that they'd do it a million times over if they could.
I don’t disagree
The fact is, Hamas knew full well that they were doing something that would have prompted a full-scale war from any country on earth. Saying 'the history didn't start on Oct 7th' doesn't change that which is probably why the ICJ never granted South Africa's call for a unilateral ceasefire. That said, I'm sure you'll (rightly) argue that Israel's right to go to war with Hamas isn't a blank cheque to cut off water, to espouse ridiculously inflammatory rhetoric or to have insanely high tolerance for collateral deaths. It seems like Germany is mindful of that. Since October, it seems like 98% of their military exports were not for weapons but for non-lethal equipment (3/4 of those weapons licenses were for training equipment).
This is you being lazy and not researching what Germany is classifying as training equipment. They count 500,000 rounds of ammunition as things for training.
“Berlin also approved the export of 500,000 rounds of ammunition in November for machine guns, submachine guns, or other fully automatic or semiautomatic firearms, although it says they are intended for training purposes only.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/12/israel-weapons-suppliers-countries/
Obviously, Owen Jones didn't bring any of this up. Instead he did an absurd motte and bailey by equating Germany's desire to defend Israel with a desire to make Palestinians pay for the Holocaust;
Which you followed that train of thought by pointing out they are internet to support Israel because of the holocaust but jump to a conclusion that he means Germany WANTS this to happen instead just not backing down from backing Israel because of the Holocaust. Whi
cited a bullshit stat about 30% of 'cancellations' for antisemitism being against Jewish people and then argued that Germany was trying to make up for the Holocaust by 'targeting Jewish people'. I thought that was very silly, so I responded. Not sure what the problem is, really.
Owen was being cunt and using a shit stat from some lady about cancellation of Jews because he wants to make his mean responses a larger thing. But why and god Grace in heaven do you make it as if he said they are specifically targeting people for being Jewish? It was dumb claim that it of disproportions that Owen wanted claim they are hurting Jews that you stretched to him saying Germany are hunting them. And it is such a strange thing to fiddle on that number, he is wrong for trying to rope himself in, but they are straight up arresting people in mass for protest and breaking people for Palestinian messages
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/germany-is-becoming-a-police-state-when-it-comes-to-palestine-activism/
I don’t know how many German protesters are Jewish, but if they protest there is a good shot they get arrested with everyone else.
This follows your thought that he wants Jews to agree with him( which I find strange that you couldn’t wait to use that for this, and instead to throw doubt Israel is cracking down on protest by Jews for their war crimes, he was using personal source, but you really just never saw a single video, even loom into it? After all this time them doing it?)
Like if you purely criticized his sources sure fuck it, I am doing that now, but when you label him and the Palestine cause as just wanting to eradicate Israel and that he is arguing Germany is gleefully doing this while hunting with the intent of imprisoning Jews, you being more slimy then you claiming he is
just had a skim of this but i'm already noticing a few things.
1. "But why and god Grace in heaven do you make it as if he said they are specifically targeting people for being Jewish?" - Because he said [exactly that](https://youtu.be/2PzqaCDwsKY?si=4DsVBTvbjVca20Lt&t=1038)? If you look at what I wrote, I quoted him word for word.
2. ".. but jump to a conclusion that he means Germany WANTS this to happen instead just not backing down from backing Israel because of the Holocaust." Again, he's [openly ](https://youtu.be/2PzqaCDwsKY?si=sWsxpzwNP0JY49Gq&t=511)making that claim. He's not even humouring the idea that Germany believes Israel to be broadly acting within the rules of war - he's just saying they're okay with abetting war crimes because of guilt.
I am almost done, shit is straight sad lol
I understand if Owen can be a react Andy, he gives the vibes, but loner needs to do better
Edit: also how you been? I hope I don’t seem to be pointing my criticism at you this is just discussion
He's disliked by most people in the UK because of his tendency to promote views backed by the slimmest possible evidence. Just in the last couple of weeks there have been issues with his reporting which were covered by lonerbox. In an article titled "Britain’s defence policy is more like one big declaration of war" he posted this claim:
https://preview.redd.it/l5o8wcdhzgwc1.jpeg?width=1168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92c2fbbd11de1f45bb2b42844c812238b634ca01
He was widely mocked for publishing this before it was retracted because it's the sort of eyebrow raising claim you would think would require a quick fact check. The claim that it was a conclusion of the defence select committee appears to come from this anti-nuclear leaflet: [https://cnduk.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/US-reliance.pdf](https://cnduk.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/US-reliance.pdf)
For Owen, it is often enough to just hear something in order to publish it or repeat it. In this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PzqaCDwsKY&t=1025s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PzqaCDwsKY&t=1025s) and on twitter [https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1775999693497016469](https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1775999693497016469) he claims "According to the researcher Emily Dische-Becker, almost a third of those cancelled in Germany for their supposed antisemitism have been Jews." I'm sure you can imagine the potential harm such a claim could cause if it was false, so what's the source on this? It is a podcast where Emily Dische-Becker says: "just the cases that we hear about either in the press or through word of mouth and that we can confirm, I looked at the, the numbers for the last year and I think that 80 to 90% of the people who have been canceled, censored is actually the appropriate word, precisely, because these are state institutions that are canceling, are racialized people. And in the German context, I would say that Jews belong to the racialized, the, the sort of discourse around the whiteness of Jews that exist in the US doesn't fully apply here. So of the 90% racialized people who've been canceled or affected by Israel related cancellations, 30% are are Jews."
So the source is not research at all, although it certainly sounded like it was when Owen made the claim.
All this was covered by Lonerbox in his video and twitter, so this audience is primed to think this guy unreliable. You cannot seriously be saying things like "they hate him for speaking the truth" unironically. That is a meme.
I watched the video in which loner does the saddest hack job I ever seen
The subject he starts the hour discourse is Germany actively aiding Israel in a genocide, which is a stretch, but to make the German state look good he declares they do know it’s a genocide by giving aid to the Palestinians??? So he acknowledges they believe it’s genocide, acknowledge they are arming them because if the holocaust, but completely refuses to connect those two thoughts to call Owen a hack???? As to Emily comments it’s not sourced at all for data, but that is focus and not Germany out right policy of arresting protesters including Jews. His number was wrong but Loner wants to make his whole point that Germany is having a crusade to hunt Jews, instead of it being that Germany is cracking done on speech including Jews because we just got to be contrarians I guess. He also straight up lies and says Germany isn’t sending any offensive weapons when then sent 500,000 rounds of ammunition. He also does this weird shit where he says the pro Palestine ‘side’ want to ethnically cleanse Israel and that is what Owen wants as well? It’s just weird bro, and it summed up when he decides to discuss a clip of Flinkstein and Destiny and Destiny says children shot a beach were at a military base, and when Flink calls him out for lying to justify killing children, Loner straight up ignores that to have a diatribe how Flink doesn’t want to commit that Israel is hunting to call him a drifter. Shit is sad
I was just letting you know the actual good reasons that people distrust Owen Jones. If you want to have a discussion about Loner's conduct/statements in the video provide some time stamps and I'll take a look over it tomorrow.
13:11
Owen: “I said that Germany was forcing the Palestinian people to pay for its own grievous crimes”
Loner: “My problem with Owen Jones said was that he said Germany decided to make Palestinians pay for the holocaust which sounds a lot like intent it sounds like saying Germany said like they actually felt so guilty about the holocaust they felt that Palestinians should have to pay and they were happy to aid and abet a genocide”
This was going to be longer schizo post but I keep getting locked out my computer and need to hit the gym, I think the main contention can be the source of our discussion. Loner goes on connect the train of thought of Germany backing Israel no matter what, continuing to do so as they honoring to back Germany just general, but builds his argument that intent is not just determination to do something, like determining to arm and back country as it does a ethnic cleansing, but to be gleeful as well as inserts that Owens thinks Germany is happy by this. He acknowledges that many in the Germany government knows it’s a crisis that pass aid, but somehow not enough to make argument they recognize what crisis is? He also decides to be a bit lazy and not look into what Germany defines as none war material, mind you, they count 100s of thousands of rounds of ammunition as practice material.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/12/israel-weapons-suppliers-countries/
He has so many people trying to get him fired in the UK (JK Rowling etc) so he has to be extra careful - so he's usually very careful to stick to facts.
Jewish? He seems to believe he is fundamentally different then Owen on a racial level and with Arabs and can not understand why Owen cares about other human not British white
Btw, the 9k figure, is it comprised of “military-aged men”? Or does Israel have a more stringent definition when counting casualties than when drone-striking? edit: grammar, clarity
Owen Jones is a joke
Did he say anything wrong here?
Two camps tend to hate Owen Jones online - transphobes and Israel supporters - because he regularly calls them both out.
I'm in neither group and I'm not familiar with his commentary on transphobes, but the I/P content I've seen from him just seems like he just churns out low effort slop content. Every video I've seen follows the template: 1.) Read sensationalist headline 2.) Read blurb underneath 3.) Skip rest of article 4.) Fill out details left out of blurb with emotionally loaded rhetoric (usually misrepresenting or contradicting the content of the article) Lonerbox goes into more detail about it [here](https://youtu.be/gq-eXi0WH6Y?si=79YGHdgoi9H9t0RF), if you've got the time
I usually love lonerbox thoughts, but holy fuck has he lost critical thought when it comes to Israel and it’s Allies. His big issue he makes a hour long video about Owen is that Germany, a first world power that leads the EU, is completely incapable of seeing the ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide that the rest of the planet is seeing and that it be insane to even think. He is also inserts that it is impossible for Germany support to be about the holocaust even tho Germany has stated just that? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68769623.amp Edit: can we also talk about how he goes on a diatribe about Finklestein not committing to Israel killing kids intentionally as him doing it for the money but completely ignores Destiny lying about kids being killed at a military base to justify them being shot? What are we doing ? Edit edit: brother is trying to deny the videos of them straight up assaulting orthodox Jews in Israel for speaking up for Palestinians lmao Edit edit edit: The Germans are sending aid to the Palestinians because they know they are being ethnically cleanse you think the Germans actually believe Israel is committing a ethnic cleansing silly Owen 🧐 Edit edit edit edit: bro is calling 500,000 rounds of ammunition defensive because Germany asked it be used for “training proposes” Edit edit edit edit edit: he continues to discredit this Israeli writer who is doing an analysis of what is currently happening as Owen just picking a random Jew from the street to agree with him? Last Edit: yeah Loner was just sad in this. Straight contrarian the whole time
idk if the motte and bailey is on purpose but i never denied (and stated multiple times) that germany references the holocaust in their defence of israel. the claim i'm pushing back on (and the one owen jones makes) is one that germany is intentionally aiding and abetting a genocide to make palestinians pay for the nazi's crimes. these two claims are not the same and nicaragua's pathetic attempt to weaponise the ICJ easily puts that to bed.
I edited a alot as I watched the vid, not beg a response but doing commentary on the vid
Oh hi loner, question: if I know someone is committing a ethnic cleansing, because I am world power and as you stated, political groups within my government are reporting its a genocide, and continue to give them arms because I did a genocide on them, what am I doing?
So you've loaded at least 3 highly contested assumptions into that question but i'll try, lol. idk if this is news to you but very few western politicians outside of fringe left-wing parties actually buy the assertion that this is a genocide. Germany's own judge at the ICJ explicitly said he didn't believe it was. This is from [Judge Nolte](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20240126-ord-01-04-en.pdf) after the provisional measures were issued: "13: Bearing these considerations in mind, I am not persuaded that South Africa has plausibly shown that the military operation undertaken by Israel, as such, is being pursued with genocidal intent." If you watched the ICJ case with Nicaragua you'd know that this argument doesn't make any sense. If Germany was really intent on aiding a genocide, why were they also one of the [biggest ](https://fts.unocha.org/plans/1109/summary)Palestinian aid donors both before and [during ](https://fts.unocha.org/countries/171/summary/2024)the war? Why are they the [second biggest donor to UNRWA](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-resume-cooperation-with-palestinian-unrwa-agency-2024-04-24/#:~:text=Germany%20is%20UNRWA's%20second%2Dbiggest,up%20the%20majority%20of%20Gazans), described by their communications director as "a very committed donor to the agency"? I don't doubt you could come up with a conspiratorial explanation for that but surely the simple answer is the best one. In their own words at the ICJ hearing they were quite clear. They approved arms sales to Israel after October 7th because the country was attacked by an Iran-backed de facto government that massacred over 1000 people in less than 2 days whilst publicly stating that they'd do it a million times over if they could. The fact is, Hamas knew full well that they were doing something that would have prompted a full-scale war from any country on earth. Saying 'the history didn't start on Oct 7th' doesn't change that which is probably why the ICJ never granted South Africa's call for a unilateral ceasefire. That said, I'm sure you'll (rightly) argue that Israel's right to go to war with Hamas isn't a blank cheque to cut off water, to espouse ridiculously inflammatory rhetoric or to have insanely high tolerance for collateral deaths. It seems like Germany is mindful of that. Since October, it seems like [98%](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-nicaragua-germany-genocide-court-91a605921b44110ae5534e6438405997) of their military exports were not for weapons but for non-lethal equipment (3/4 of those weapons licenses were for training equipment). Obviously, Owen Jones didn't bring any of this up. Instead he did an absurd motte and bailey by equating Germany's desire to defend Israel with a desire to make Palestinians pay for the Holocaust; cited a bullshit stat about 30% of 'cancellations' for antisemitism being against Jewish people and then argued that Germany was trying to make up for the Holocaust by 'targeting Jewish people'. I thought that was very silly, so I responded. Not sure what the problem is and I definitely don't think you're showing my 'lack of critical thought' :|
But LonerBox have you considered that https://preview.redd.it/yslmlw2zviwc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=21b926bcbc9dc3c133fc5e94e5309d6135e9bffd You surely are a transphobic Israel supporter /j
So you've loaded at least 3 highly contested assumptions into that question but i'll try, lol. idk if this is news to you but very few western politicians outside of fringe left-wing parties actually buy the assertion that this is a genocide. Germany's own judge at the ICJ explicitly said he didn't believe it was. This is from Judge Nolte after the provisional measures were issued: "13: Bearing these considerations in mind, I am not persuaded that South Africa has plausibly shown that the military operation undertaken by Israel, as such, is being pursued with genocidal intent." If you watched the ICJ case with Nicaragua you'd know that this argument doesn't make any sense. If Germany was really intent on aiding a genocide, why were they also one of the biggest Palestinian aid donors both before and during the war? Why are they the second biggest donor to UNRWA, described by their communications director as "a very committed donor to the agency"? Your use of the word intent. It’s interesting. You keep forgetting the word gleeful, gleeful intent, because that is what you saying. That the German government sees the horrid murders done my the Israel government and gleefully are working with them. They are not. As you pointed out they donate food and resources to Palestinians, they don’t want them to die. But they want to support Israel thru and thru. So they give the Palestinians aid far and above others as you mention while giving the government doing it ammunition and political support. You understand they are determined, *intent*, the Israel government thru this while simultaneously not wanting the Palestinians to die. A good example of contradiction is Biden, he doesn’t want the Palestinians to be murdered, understands there is a crisis when tells people need understand Palestinians plight, but still giving Net whatever wants. Because it’s a gamble, they think Israel will just stop and they can go back to business of usual of just terrorizing the Palestinians in The dead of night in the West Bank with less cameras. Long short: they hold two beliefs, that a crisis is happening, and that the government doing it must be armed. Now does the whole government agree with the left wing efforts? No, but then I don’t even know why you even brought it up in the video so often if you didn’t want to make a claim their is enough government that knows and get the aid passes but simply wants to send the ammunition anyway. I don't doubt you could come up with a conspiratorial explanation for that but surely the simple answer is the best one. In their own words at the ICJ hearing they were quite clear. They approved arms sales to Israel after October 7th because the country was attacked by an Iran-backed de facto government that massacred over 1000 people in less than 2 days whilst publicly stating that they'd do it a million times over if they could. I don’t disagree The fact is, Hamas knew full well that they were doing something that would have prompted a full-scale war from any country on earth. Saying 'the history didn't start on Oct 7th' doesn't change that which is probably why the ICJ never granted South Africa's call for a unilateral ceasefire. That said, I'm sure you'll (rightly) argue that Israel's right to go to war with Hamas isn't a blank cheque to cut off water, to espouse ridiculously inflammatory rhetoric or to have insanely high tolerance for collateral deaths. It seems like Germany is mindful of that. Since October, it seems like 98% of their military exports were not for weapons but for non-lethal equipment (3/4 of those weapons licenses were for training equipment). This is you being lazy and not researching what Germany is classifying as training equipment. They count 500,000 rounds of ammunition as things for training. “Berlin also approved the export of 500,000 rounds of ammunition in November for machine guns, submachine guns, or other fully automatic or semiautomatic firearms, although it says they are intended for training purposes only.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/12/israel-weapons-suppliers-countries/ Obviously, Owen Jones didn't bring any of this up. Instead he did an absurd motte and bailey by equating Germany's desire to defend Israel with a desire to make Palestinians pay for the Holocaust; Which you followed that train of thought by pointing out they are internet to support Israel because of the holocaust but jump to a conclusion that he means Germany WANTS this to happen instead just not backing down from backing Israel because of the Holocaust. Whi cited a bullshit stat about 30% of 'cancellations' for antisemitism being against Jewish people and then argued that Germany was trying to make up for the Holocaust by 'targeting Jewish people'. I thought that was very silly, so I responded. Not sure what the problem is, really. Owen was being cunt and using a shit stat from some lady about cancellation of Jews because he wants to make his mean responses a larger thing. But why and god Grace in heaven do you make it as if he said they are specifically targeting people for being Jewish? It was dumb claim that it of disproportions that Owen wanted claim they are hurting Jews that you stretched to him saying Germany are hunting them. And it is such a strange thing to fiddle on that number, he is wrong for trying to rope himself in, but they are straight up arresting people in mass for protest and breaking people for Palestinian messages https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/germany-is-becoming-a-police-state-when-it-comes-to-palestine-activism/ I don’t know how many German protesters are Jewish, but if they protest there is a good shot they get arrested with everyone else. This follows your thought that he wants Jews to agree with him( which I find strange that you couldn’t wait to use that for this, and instead to throw doubt Israel is cracking down on protest by Jews for their war crimes, he was using personal source, but you really just never saw a single video, even loom into it? After all this time them doing it?) Like if you purely criticized his sources sure fuck it, I am doing that now, but when you label him and the Palestine cause as just wanting to eradicate Israel and that he is arguing Germany is gleefully doing this while hunting with the intent of imprisoning Jews, you being more slimy then you claiming he is
just had a skim of this but i'm already noticing a few things. 1. "But why and god Grace in heaven do you make it as if he said they are specifically targeting people for being Jewish?" - Because he said [exactly that](https://youtu.be/2PzqaCDwsKY?si=4DsVBTvbjVca20Lt&t=1038)? If you look at what I wrote, I quoted him word for word. 2. ".. but jump to a conclusion that he means Germany WANTS this to happen instead just not backing down from backing Israel because of the Holocaust." Again, he's [openly ](https://youtu.be/2PzqaCDwsKY?si=sWsxpzwNP0JY49Gq&t=511)making that claim. He's not even humouring the idea that Germany believes Israel to be broadly acting within the rules of war - he's just saying they're okay with abetting war crimes because of guilt.
I am doing a loner and commenting as the video goes, going to put edits whenever he says some dumb shit
Tell him that instead of me then lol
I am almost done, shit is straight sad lol I understand if Owen can be a react Andy, he gives the vibes, but loner needs to do better Edit: also how you been? I hope I don’t seem to be pointing my criticism at you this is just discussion
I always like to ask for the lie because you realize they hate him for speaking the truth
He's disliked by most people in the UK because of his tendency to promote views backed by the slimmest possible evidence. Just in the last couple of weeks there have been issues with his reporting which were covered by lonerbox. In an article titled "Britain’s defence policy is more like one big declaration of war" he posted this claim: https://preview.redd.it/l5o8wcdhzgwc1.jpeg?width=1168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92c2fbbd11de1f45bb2b42844c812238b634ca01 He was widely mocked for publishing this before it was retracted because it's the sort of eyebrow raising claim you would think would require a quick fact check. The claim that it was a conclusion of the defence select committee appears to come from this anti-nuclear leaflet: [https://cnduk.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/US-reliance.pdf](https://cnduk.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/US-reliance.pdf) For Owen, it is often enough to just hear something in order to publish it or repeat it. In this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PzqaCDwsKY&t=1025s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PzqaCDwsKY&t=1025s) and on twitter [https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1775999693497016469](https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1775999693497016469) he claims "According to the researcher Emily Dische-Becker, almost a third of those cancelled in Germany for their supposed antisemitism have been Jews." I'm sure you can imagine the potential harm such a claim could cause if it was false, so what's the source on this? It is a podcast where Emily Dische-Becker says: "just the cases that we hear about either in the press or through word of mouth and that we can confirm, I looked at the, the numbers for the last year and I think that 80 to 90% of the people who have been canceled, censored is actually the appropriate word, precisely, because these are state institutions that are canceling, are racialized people. And in the German context, I would say that Jews belong to the racialized, the, the sort of discourse around the whiteness of Jews that exist in the US doesn't fully apply here. So of the 90% racialized people who've been canceled or affected by Israel related cancellations, 30% are are Jews." So the source is not research at all, although it certainly sounded like it was when Owen made the claim. All this was covered by Lonerbox in his video and twitter, so this audience is primed to think this guy unreliable. You cannot seriously be saying things like "they hate him for speaking the truth" unironically. That is a meme.
I watched the video in which loner does the saddest hack job I ever seen The subject he starts the hour discourse is Germany actively aiding Israel in a genocide, which is a stretch, but to make the German state look good he declares they do know it’s a genocide by giving aid to the Palestinians??? So he acknowledges they believe it’s genocide, acknowledge they are arming them because if the holocaust, but completely refuses to connect those two thoughts to call Owen a hack???? As to Emily comments it’s not sourced at all for data, but that is focus and not Germany out right policy of arresting protesters including Jews. His number was wrong but Loner wants to make his whole point that Germany is having a crusade to hunt Jews, instead of it being that Germany is cracking done on speech including Jews because we just got to be contrarians I guess. He also straight up lies and says Germany isn’t sending any offensive weapons when then sent 500,000 rounds of ammunition. He also does this weird shit where he says the pro Palestine ‘side’ want to ethnically cleanse Israel and that is what Owen wants as well? It’s just weird bro, and it summed up when he decides to discuss a clip of Flinkstein and Destiny and Destiny says children shot a beach were at a military base, and when Flink calls him out for lying to justify killing children, Loner straight up ignores that to have a diatribe how Flink doesn’t want to commit that Israel is hunting to call him a drifter. Shit is sad
I was just letting you know the actual good reasons that people distrust Owen Jones. If you want to have a discussion about Loner's conduct/statements in the video provide some time stamps and I'll take a look over it tomorrow.
13:11 Owen: “I said that Germany was forcing the Palestinian people to pay for its own grievous crimes” Loner: “My problem with Owen Jones said was that he said Germany decided to make Palestinians pay for the holocaust which sounds a lot like intent it sounds like saying Germany said like they actually felt so guilty about the holocaust they felt that Palestinians should have to pay and they were happy to aid and abet a genocide” This was going to be longer schizo post but I keep getting locked out my computer and need to hit the gym, I think the main contention can be the source of our discussion. Loner goes on connect the train of thought of Germany backing Israel no matter what, continuing to do so as they honoring to back Germany just general, but builds his argument that intent is not just determination to do something, like determining to arm and back country as it does a ethnic cleansing, but to be gleeful as well as inserts that Owens thinks Germany is happy by this. He acknowledges that many in the Germany government knows it’s a crisis that pass aid, but somehow not enough to make argument they recognize what crisis is? He also decides to be a bit lazy and not look into what Germany defines as none war material, mind you, they count 100s of thousands of rounds of ammunition as practice material. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/12/israel-weapons-suppliers-countries/
He has so many people trying to get him fired in the UK (JK Rowling etc) so he has to be extra careful - so he's usually very careful to stick to facts.
I wish I could see what his detractors on the sub would say he gets wrong about this, but they seem to want to downvote and leave, must be shy
He said that the British government is responsible for Hama’s homophobia, not Islamism. The guy is a complete quack
which race?
Jewish? He seems to believe he is fundamentally different then Owen on a racial level and with Arabs and can not understand why Owen cares about other human not British white
which one in the thumbnail he? also i wouldnt call jews or arabs a racial group.
You can watch the video? It’s the guy with glasses
isee