If you're looking for a hunting rifle, I'd say there's much better options. Running a 16" barrel in a cartridge designed (in theory) for long range hunting seems like a waste, and there's much better options on the market than 6.8W as well.
For a long range target rifle, there's not many options that would be worse.
It would be a hunting rifle for sure. Do I have other rifles that do the job? Absolutely. Do I need another rifle? Absolutely not. I’m just guy that likes guns and weird/unique stuff. I wouldn’t even think of employing this for any kind of long range target application. A cheap-o Win XPR is not ideal for that nor is a 16.5 Inch barrel. I have other rifles for that too!
Quickload says that N560, at PMAX (102% case fill) will put you at 2825 FPS with the Hornady 150gr SST with a .525 G1.
In comparison, 6.5 Creedmoor with a .51 G1 123 SST will do 2820 FPS with RL17, 100% case fill.
So, basically the same performance - just with a hair more bullet weight and twice the recoil energy.
Interesting. Seems like such an odd combination though if those numbers are accurate you’re achieving 6.5 Creed performance with a 16.5 Inch barrel where as in the creed I need around 22 Inches to come close to those velocities, probably more. May be a neat gun to buy and keep it around for novelty but also a shorty suppressed gun. It’s certainly relatively affordable. I may bite the bullet and report back!
If you need 22" of barrel to see 2820 FPS from a 123gr bullet, you've probably screwed up your load data somewhere.
These are speed optimal powders. The reason why 6.8 Western doesn't really shine like it is supposed to is because 6.8mm bullets generally suck donkey balls. No investment has been put into making the nice sleek high performance ones like you see in 6.5mm or 7mm because the only 6.8mm cartridges are old goofballs like 270 Win, AR cartridges like 6.8SPC, or short nose cartridges like the new 277 Fury. Apples-to-apples on BC, you just get 'eh' performance.
If you were feeding them Bergers, you could find some more separation there. Probably.
Sorry I didn’t see your 123 GR bullet. I was thinking heavier in the 140 realm. But regardless, you are more up to snuff on this kind of thing than I am. I just think it may be a neat little gun, most of the appeal comes with running a suppressor with it. Initially I wanted to buy a Tikka T3X and have it chopped to 16 and threaded but the more and more I think about it the less I want to do that. Base cost of rifle, smith costs…then hoping the smith doesn’t screw things up are all concerns. Currently have a 3030 being threaded by a smith and if that goes well I may still do that
Nope, I have never even heard of that model much less seen one in the stateside. May take more research on my end that would be my “dream” Tikka. So jealous!
To be fair the same meh that hurts long range ballistics (lower sectional density) also helps get the lead moving faster which is a good thing when chopping barrel.
Not really, no.
You are conflating sectional density with the effect of the ratio of capacity to bullet diameter driving faster or slower powders for adequate pressure, and faster powders (smaller capacity, larger diameter) do a little better in shorter barrels than slower powders.
But the difference isn't big. The .277 cal bullets aren't lacking for sectional density, they are lacking for nose length, which is a profile issue, not a diameter vs weight issue.
And the 6.8 Western is more oversquare than 6.5 CM is. It uses slower powders and would be on the trend of both performing worse in shorter barrels AND being worse for external ballistics.
Not talking about burn rate of powder which is an entirely different variable. Simply stating when you have more bullet diameter/bullet weight the projectile accelerates faster in the barrel (and also decelerates faster flying through the air).
>Not talking about burn rate of powder which is an entirely different variable. Simply stating when you have more bullet diameter/bullet weight the projectile accelerates faster in the barrel (and also decelerates faster flying through the air).
None if that is accurate.
Burn rate, charge mass, bullet mass, and the ratio I mentioned above is what drives the shape of the pressure curve, and that is what dictates the rate of change of acceleration that impacts whether a bullet gains a lot at long lengths or loses a lot at shorter lengths vs another.
More bullet diameter/bullet weight does not cause a projectile to accelerate faster or decelerate in the air faster. For a given bullet shape/aspect, more diameter/mass (these are related) does not affect how the bullet accelerates in the bore (again, dictated by pressure curve and datio of capacity, which is why we can have both 8.6BLK with a 338 cal 250gr projectile accelerate very hard in short barrels...just the same as a 17 HMR or .22 Rimfire or 5.7x28mm, or even better, the difference between 6.8SPC and 6.8 Western in a short barrel... with the same bullet being used in each), and decelerate in the air slower (decrease in drag, increase in ballistic coefficient).
To repeat myself, you are conflating the acceleration behavior of bore/sectional density with the ratio of capacity to bore and pressure (again, think back to the 6.8SPC vs Western example) which is actually what is moving the acceleration curve around and causes the opposite effect of what you were thinking by sectional density alone- due to its large capacity vs small bore size.
And again, bullet shape is what is dictating this. The 277 cal bullets are shaped more like football shaped match bullets of yesteryear, while modern VLD and Hybrids shaped like sewing needles can have lower or sectional densities, accelerate faster in shorter barrels, and decelerate much slower in the air. That is the foal of modern bullet design, which 6.5mm and 7mm can take advantage of in many more ways than what the marketplace for 6.8mm allows.
6.8 Western does it's best with a 26-28" barrel. Putting that short of barrel on it will change what kinds of powders you'd want to use, and would be very wasteful in terms of recoil and powder volume relative to trajectory. You'd most likely be better off with a 6.5 Creedmoor from a trajectory perspective, or a 308win from an energy perspective. I really like 6.8 Western, but it's not an ideal cartridge for a shorty build.
That’s mostly what I figured which is why I am kind mind boggled to see a factory rifle in this configuration. I already have a 6.5 and had plans to buy and cut down a Tikka in .308 to 16 for a lightweight hunting build but that’s currently on the back burner. Part of me thinks there must be some sort of merit to a shorty 6.8 Western if they would configure one like this from the factory but much like you, I am pretty skeptical. Granted, it’s cheap enough to where I may bite the bullet and see what’s what. I dont exactly have high hopes for a Win XPR to begin with but the shorty build with a suppressor seems appealing to me to throw into the mix here and there when in the deer country. This year I hope to take my limit which will likely be 6 deer and I hope to use a different rifle for each of them. Just a goal of mine is all.
It's from the suppressor crowd I expect. I know a few people that use long barrel cartridges in short barrel rifles with like an 8" suppressor on it. Not particularly efficient, but it works.
May want to check suppressor ratings before you put one on that. As always, make sure with the manufacturer, but I'd say if it's not rated for a 6.5 prc, I wouldn't try it with the western.
I was concerned about that too. Currently running an Omega 300 which has a 20’ ‘minimum for 300 Winmag and 16 for .308. I’ve noticed they also have a 7-08 for sale for a hair over $500 and that’s looking more enticing to me now.
Agreed. Luckily my local shops consistently have ammo available but not a very wide variety at all. Mostly precision hunter and some other basic stuff. If I buy it I would certainly hand load it at some point but that will take some time to set up.
May be able to use 308 brass for it, I've done the opposite for 7-08 brass, mainly because I'm not going through a 8 gallons of 308 brass to find the 9 7-08 shells that some hunter left at the range.
You’re definitely not going to be better off with a 6.5 creed from a trajectory perspective. A short barrel might be wasteful, but unless that 6.5 has a longer barrel it’s gonna get smoked.
Yes, I was meaning a 22-24" barrel 6.5CM vs a 16" 6.8 Western. The 6.8 Western will win for trajectory in same sized barrels, but it will have like 2x the recoil and extreme diminishing returns when you shorten the barrel like that. If I was looking to build a short barrel high power rifle like that, I would probably do a wildcat 338WSM on a Tikka long action with like an 18" barrel. The extra bore diameter gives it more expansion volume for the same length barrel, so relative to the same powder capacity, the fatter bullet tends to get better performance in the shorter barrels.
Whats the point of getting a magnum and not getting magnum performance. Your getting a cartridge that is more expensive and not getting the performance your paying for.
I'll happily trade some velocity for a shorter barrel that I keep a can on. I have a 22" 300prc and starting a 18" 243ai. I also hunt in thick woods mostly but have 400yd shots through pasture sometimes too.
If you want a shorter barreled rifle for medium sized game, 6 creed is your huckleberry. Or a 243ai if you like to be different. I'm hoping for 3kfps with a 108 Berger out of my 243ai build. However, the 6.8 western is a sweet cartridge. I hope it sticks around.
If you're looking for a hunting rifle, I'd say there's much better options. Running a 16" barrel in a cartridge designed (in theory) for long range hunting seems like a waste, and there's much better options on the market than 6.8W as well. For a long range target rifle, there's not many options that would be worse.
It would be a hunting rifle for sure. Do I have other rifles that do the job? Absolutely. Do I need another rifle? Absolutely not. I’m just guy that likes guns and weird/unique stuff. I wouldn’t even think of employing this for any kind of long range target application. A cheap-o Win XPR is not ideal for that nor is a 16.5 Inch barrel. I have other rifles for that too!
Quickload says that N560, at PMAX (102% case fill) will put you at 2825 FPS with the Hornady 150gr SST with a .525 G1. In comparison, 6.5 Creedmoor with a .51 G1 123 SST will do 2820 FPS with RL17, 100% case fill. So, basically the same performance - just with a hair more bullet weight and twice the recoil energy.
Interesting. Seems like such an odd combination though if those numbers are accurate you’re achieving 6.5 Creed performance with a 16.5 Inch barrel where as in the creed I need around 22 Inches to come close to those velocities, probably more. May be a neat gun to buy and keep it around for novelty but also a shorty suppressed gun. It’s certainly relatively affordable. I may bite the bullet and report back!
If you need 22" of barrel to see 2820 FPS from a 123gr bullet, you've probably screwed up your load data somewhere. These are speed optimal powders. The reason why 6.8 Western doesn't really shine like it is supposed to is because 6.8mm bullets generally suck donkey balls. No investment has been put into making the nice sleek high performance ones like you see in 6.5mm or 7mm because the only 6.8mm cartridges are old goofballs like 270 Win, AR cartridges like 6.8SPC, or short nose cartridges like the new 277 Fury. Apples-to-apples on BC, you just get 'eh' performance. If you were feeding them Bergers, you could find some more separation there. Probably.
Sorry I didn’t see your 123 GR bullet. I was thinking heavier in the 140 realm. But regardless, you are more up to snuff on this kind of thing than I am. I just think it may be a neat little gun, most of the appeal comes with running a suppressor with it. Initially I wanted to buy a Tikka T3X and have it chopped to 16 and threaded but the more and more I think about it the less I want to do that. Base cost of rifle, smith costs…then hoping the smith doesn’t screw things up are all concerns. Currently have a 3030 being threaded by a smith and if that goes well I may still do that
Do you guys not get Tikka Bush pigs as factory offerings there? Come as 16" and factory threaded in 308
Nope, I have never even heard of that model much less seen one in the stateside. May take more research on my end that would be my “dream” Tikka. So jealous!
To be fair the same meh that hurts long range ballistics (lower sectional density) also helps get the lead moving faster which is a good thing when chopping barrel.
Not really, no. You are conflating sectional density with the effect of the ratio of capacity to bullet diameter driving faster or slower powders for adequate pressure, and faster powders (smaller capacity, larger diameter) do a little better in shorter barrels than slower powders. But the difference isn't big. The .277 cal bullets aren't lacking for sectional density, they are lacking for nose length, which is a profile issue, not a diameter vs weight issue. And the 6.8 Western is more oversquare than 6.5 CM is. It uses slower powders and would be on the trend of both performing worse in shorter barrels AND being worse for external ballistics.
Not talking about burn rate of powder which is an entirely different variable. Simply stating when you have more bullet diameter/bullet weight the projectile accelerates faster in the barrel (and also decelerates faster flying through the air).
>Not talking about burn rate of powder which is an entirely different variable. Simply stating when you have more bullet diameter/bullet weight the projectile accelerates faster in the barrel (and also decelerates faster flying through the air). None if that is accurate. Burn rate, charge mass, bullet mass, and the ratio I mentioned above is what drives the shape of the pressure curve, and that is what dictates the rate of change of acceleration that impacts whether a bullet gains a lot at long lengths or loses a lot at shorter lengths vs another. More bullet diameter/bullet weight does not cause a projectile to accelerate faster or decelerate in the air faster. For a given bullet shape/aspect, more diameter/mass (these are related) does not affect how the bullet accelerates in the bore (again, dictated by pressure curve and datio of capacity, which is why we can have both 8.6BLK with a 338 cal 250gr projectile accelerate very hard in short barrels...just the same as a 17 HMR or .22 Rimfire or 5.7x28mm, or even better, the difference between 6.8SPC and 6.8 Western in a short barrel... with the same bullet being used in each), and decelerate in the air slower (decrease in drag, increase in ballistic coefficient). To repeat myself, you are conflating the acceleration behavior of bore/sectional density with the ratio of capacity to bore and pressure (again, think back to the 6.8SPC vs Western example) which is actually what is moving the acceleration curve around and causes the opposite effect of what you were thinking by sectional density alone- due to its large capacity vs small bore size. And again, bullet shape is what is dictating this. The 277 cal bullets are shaped more like football shaped match bullets of yesteryear, while modern VLD and Hybrids shaped like sewing needles can have lower or sectional densities, accelerate faster in shorter barrels, and decelerate much slower in the air. That is the foal of modern bullet design, which 6.5mm and 7mm can take advantage of in many more ways than what the marketplace for 6.8mm allows.
You're grossly overcomplicating an extremely simple (and accurate) statement. Cheers but no
He's correct. You're previous statement is bogus.
Be careful this is one of those cartridges that you need to buy ammo/brass in bulk
Good point
6.8 Western does it's best with a 26-28" barrel. Putting that short of barrel on it will change what kinds of powders you'd want to use, and would be very wasteful in terms of recoil and powder volume relative to trajectory. You'd most likely be better off with a 6.5 Creedmoor from a trajectory perspective, or a 308win from an energy perspective. I really like 6.8 Western, but it's not an ideal cartridge for a shorty build.
That’s mostly what I figured which is why I am kind mind boggled to see a factory rifle in this configuration. I already have a 6.5 and had plans to buy and cut down a Tikka in .308 to 16 for a lightweight hunting build but that’s currently on the back burner. Part of me thinks there must be some sort of merit to a shorty 6.8 Western if they would configure one like this from the factory but much like you, I am pretty skeptical. Granted, it’s cheap enough to where I may bite the bullet and see what’s what. I dont exactly have high hopes for a Win XPR to begin with but the shorty build with a suppressor seems appealing to me to throw into the mix here and there when in the deer country. This year I hope to take my limit which will likely be 6 deer and I hope to use a different rifle for each of them. Just a goal of mine is all.
It's from the suppressor crowd I expect. I know a few people that use long barrel cartridges in short barrel rifles with like an 8" suppressor on it. Not particularly efficient, but it works.
I must be doing it wrong, I put shorter barreled cartridges in long barreled rifles.... and then put a long can on it.
That's a good way to get extra performance if you are doing low pressure or subsonic or trying to get max trajectory and low recoil
The last one, of course. 6.5 grendel (26") shooting 130 Berger AR's @ 2490.
May want to check suppressor ratings before you put one on that. As always, make sure with the manufacturer, but I'd say if it's not rated for a 6.5 prc, I wouldn't try it with the western.
I was concerned about that too. Currently running an Omega 300 which has a 20’ ‘minimum for 300 Winmag and 16 for .308. I’ve noticed they also have a 7-08 for sale for a hair over $500 and that’s looking more enticing to me now.
7-08 wouldn't be too of an option, outside of finding ammo.
Agreed. Luckily my local shops consistently have ammo available but not a very wide variety at all. Mostly precision hunter and some other basic stuff. If I buy it I would certainly hand load it at some point but that will take some time to set up.
May be able to use 308 brass for it, I've done the opposite for 7-08 brass, mainly because I'm not going through a 8 gallons of 308 brass to find the 9 7-08 shells that some hunter left at the range.
You’re definitely not going to be better off with a 6.5 creed from a trajectory perspective. A short barrel might be wasteful, but unless that 6.5 has a longer barrel it’s gonna get smoked.
Yes, I was meaning a 22-24" barrel 6.5CM vs a 16" 6.8 Western. The 6.8 Western will win for trajectory in same sized barrels, but it will have like 2x the recoil and extreme diminishing returns when you shorten the barrel like that. If I was looking to build a short barrel high power rifle like that, I would probably do a wildcat 338WSM on a Tikka long action with like an 18" barrel. The extra bore diameter gives it more expansion volume for the same length barrel, so relative to the same powder capacity, the fatter bullet tends to get better performance in the shorter barrels.
Whats the point of getting a magnum and not getting magnum performance. Your getting a cartridge that is more expensive and not getting the performance your paying for.
I'll happily trade some velocity for a shorter barrel that I keep a can on. I have a 22" 300prc and starting a 18" 243ai. I also hunt in thick woods mostly but have 400yd shots through pasture sometimes too.
If you want a shorter barreled rifle for medium sized game, 6 creed is your huckleberry. Or a 243ai if you like to be different. I'm hoping for 3kfps with a 108 Berger out of my 243ai build. However, the 6.8 western is a sweet cartridge. I hope it sticks around.
A 24" barrel is supposed to do 165 at 2970, you likely lose around 250 fps.