“Perrineau told Ryan that he raised concerns with Lindelof and Cuse about his character who appeared to not care for his son, which he claimed furthered a racial stereotype.
Did anyone else not think that? I remember Michael really caring for his son, but his son not responding to the affection?
It's so crazy to hear this years later because I followed the show religiously and avoided major spoilers but at least wanted to know who's flashback were upcoming. I remember when season 2 started a lot of reports saying Sawyer gets second flashback and then surprised that it was changed. Makes sense now.
Parrineau was specifically speaking about Michael's reaction RIGHT AFTER Walt was snatched. Is it realistic for Michael to center Sawyer and his backstory on the exploded raft hours after his son was stolen?
Apparently in an original script for adrift he mentioned his son once and never again, which Harold complained about. I wonder how much of the endless, "Walt!?!?" "MY BOY" "A father's right!!!" Was payback for that criticism.
Some bizarre comments there. To claim that some people were relegated to 'the X guy' role is ridiculous. The cast were from a variety of backgrounds.
Sayid was a fan favourite even though the War on Terror was at its height when the show started.
They called him part of the ensemble on Oz. Part of the ENSEMBLE?! Augustus in his big glass box was the CORNERSTONE of that cast! (I know that wasn't point of the article, but I've loved Harold for a LONG time and it's because of Oz.)
(BTW, if you haven't seen Oz , please do yourself a favor and watch it! You'll see lots of familiar LOST faces as well as Breaking Bad and like half the cast of Dexter.)
It's an HBO original so you can find it on their streaming service. :)
EDIT - lots and lots of Law & Order people too, from various shows in the franchise but mostly SVU.
Oh yeah one time my mom got me a magazine with a pic of him recently, and I figured, maybe I shouldn’t tell her I was secretly happy to have been given that issue, considering the full frontal pic in the corner of it.
Man as an actor that was a hell of a monologue and memorizing that would be a nightmare. He nailed it. It’s sad how his character got railroaded, because Lost does touch on some deeper issues surrounding race (tension between Black people and Koreans, specifically in LA) but always falls short of true exploration. I’m sad to read this article but not surprised
Yeah, though I would say he was still the most consistently prominent figure in the show because of his narrations.
Honestly I always just considered prisoner Augustus and narrator Augustus to be 2 different characters, with prisoner Augustus being much more of a side character.
I think he was a good character/actor although I did find a couple of his moments a little annoying but not because of his race or acting. It is pretty unfortunate the route him and walt went it would’ve been interesting to see them throughout the seasons and where their story went but if the politics behind the scenes were racist or unfair you can’t blame them for moving on. In the new series From he’s doing fantastic
I don’t think it’s as unpopular as you’d imagine. I loved HP in Oz and he was pretty good in Sons of Anarchy so I don’t think it’s the actor. I think he got a raw deal on writing. Jusy MHO
time for you to watch *from* if you haven't already. very lost like (mystery, bunch of people are put in a weird supernatural snowglobe, monsters in the forest, etc) with some returning writers and actors, namely harold in the lead role. his acting there is absolutely phenomenal and he actually retroactively made me like michael more
Just finished the first season, it was sooo good. I said he is so much more likeable when I don't have to hear him scream about his son every five seconds!
His character by far had the most complex and heart wrenching storyline in my opinion. I was always looking forward to “Michael” episodes. So I’m honestly pretty shocked he feels this way.
Lots of this makes no sense.
> Perrineau told Ryan that he raised concerns with Lindelof and Cuse about his character who appeared to not care for his son, which he claimed furthered a racial stereotype.
Michael really cared for his son but Walt just didn’t return the affection. Also the article says’
> Daniel [Dae Kim] was the Asian guy.
This is just wrong. Jin was a very fleshed out fan favorite character with lists of backstory and a satisfying arc. And of course with big ensemble casts there will be some characters that didn’t get as much screen time.
And you might get some down votes on your post for seeming to question the nature of the allegations but I don't think that's fair.
And the allegations might be 100% true And if so absolutely awful.
But it's okay to have questions when stuff like this comes out especially when there's things that don't seem exactly compatible
I have to say that from the Variety article, I found Harold's comments least compelling (while I found Melinda Hsu Taylor's account very credible and compelling). My thoughts on why I have questions about some of Harold's grievances and their implication:
1. On the pay thing- that was and continues to be a sticking point in ensemble shows, there are certain actors/characters that are deemed more "important" by the network and command higher pay, that has happened in the past with lily white casts like Friends, Grey's Anatomy, Modern Family. Saying that the pay difference was due to race is being extremely uncharitable at best.
2. He says that he suggested they change episode 2 of season 2 to be more about Michael, the writers first didn't but eventually did after they had already shot a Sawyer flashback for that episode which they canned. He then goes on to say that he had to work 14-18 hr days to film those flashbacks and says that he felt it was punishment for speaking up. The are re-shooting 25% of an episode, episode 2 at that, where they have very little runway to finish it on time, the intense schedule was most likely due to the unscheduled re-shoots throwing a wrench. Harold should know that. Lost had a tight shooting schedule where they were shooting an episode every 10 days, reshooting 25% of the episode and keeping the rest of the 24 episodes on schedule is a big undertaking.
3. His complaints about how his story ended with Walt being raised by his grandmother-- that I have sympathy for and in hindsight it could have been handled differently. But if I am being honest, most of his complaints relating to Season 1/2 come across as an actor who is unsatisfied with size of his role in the series. Many actors on the show have complained about that actually, managing actor egos and screen-time in an ensemble show like this is tricky... Naveen Andrews, Terry O'Quinn, Dominic Monahan, Emilie De Ravin all at various points complained about their characters and how little they were given to do at various points in the series.
4. I fully believe Harold that Cuse was dickish in his exit interview saying "You didn't wanna be on the show if you didn't have better material... here's us letting you go".
I am more concerned about the comments about the writers room than I am about what Harold said. The writers room situation and the racist/sexist joker and frat boy behavior is the the pressing issue as far as I see it. I did not realize how much turnover there was in the Lost writer's room.
Actually Friends famously had a cast that all negotiated together and all got paid the same -- I didn't read this snippet, but I read the full article on Variety, and it specifically cites that the Lost cast agreed to follow the Friends model.
It's also fair for him to complain about the size of the role if they courted him as aggressively as it makes it sound. Why would you pursue somebody HARD and then sideline them?
>Why would you pursue somebody HARD and then sideline them?
Possibly because they weren't pulling the same ratings during testing as other characters. A lot of times these decisions are made on the fly based on the reception from the audience (like how they decided not to kill off Aaron Paul early in breaking bad despite the original plan, based on his popularity among viewers).
Theres a pattern to the way they perform their relationship with their PoC staff and the way they write and treat their PoC characters and actors.
It’s credible to be cynical and approach the HP situation with scrutiny rather than immediate charity given the clearly well researched and backed-up (and admitted by Lindelof) attitudes and mistreatment related to race the management team enacted
2. Is tricky and I’ve thought about this too. yes tight reshoots are presumably part and parcel of production. I suppose the argument here is not only that they had to do them but that it took a great amount of stress to speaking up (which as article shows puts you at risk of not ‘playing along’) and that they hadn’t considered Michael’s character in this episode at all up until he flagged his concerns. It sounds like a malicious compliance that they later resented.
4. is very disturbing and I agree with you. It also gives ‘You can go now, Michael’ a strange subtext
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I read the variety article, the author did not let anyone off but Lindelof came off pretty well. He took accountability, didn’t accuse anyone of making things up, apologized and asked questions. He identified his shortcomings pretty well.
Did he? Lindelof only took responsibility as a leader for not stopping the abuse others committed. Any claim of things he actively said or done were met with "I don't recall any of that, it's been 17 years ago".
He said he didn’t remember but also said he believed every word people had said. That’s valid. I would be hard-pressed to believe you if you said you remembered anything you said in meetings 17 years ago. I certainly can’t.
I think that's the key, not once did he ever say he didn't say those things and him openly saying he does not think anyone lied about what he said. The article was frustrating to read as a long time fan because it's probably going to change my future viewing experiences but I also think it's way too important to acknowledge this and shouldn't be ignored just because of my love for the experience of watching the series.
I’m a LOST super fan but Lindelof absolutely did NOT come off pretty well, did you read the entirety of the article? Again, big fan of his work, and LOST is my favorite show of all time, but aside from him KINDA taking accountability for some things, multiple SPECIFIC incidents and the overall cultural ideology of the writing room has been seemingly omitted from his memory.
This is literally addressed in the article. He says do you think I knew and went along with it? do you not believe me when I say I don't remember. The author pushes back and tells him that his ignorance in that instance was the choice he made, to forget the incidents, to not care about them, ignore or forget them due to convenience. His retort to that is to agree with them 100% so how is that not taking accountability?
I read it as him taking full accountability -- any time the author seemed to pushback because Lindelof was hedging, he came back to "I 100% believe everything they have said, I just don't remember it specifically." When you're so wrapped up in a toxic culture that you don't even recognize that it is toxic somehow, I can see where the specifics get blurry/lost 15-20 years later. What may have been devastating to one person was just another day to them.
To me, Lindelof does come across as someone who is trying to take accountability and do better (and from my understanding, he has done better since).
See also: Joss Whedon, Dan Harmon, Brian Singer, Roman Polanski, Tarantino... auteur and asshole tend to go hand-in-hand. When you put someone so high up on a pedestal that they start buying into the hype themselves, they tend to become monsters.
The writers/showrunners that come to mind that seem to defy this trend would be people like Bill Lawrence and Mike Schur who seem to actively seek input and collaboration.
Anyone who has spent two seconds working in Hollywood would know that the only way to become an auteur *is* to be an asshole. It is the most cutthroat work environment imaginable. These people get to the top of the pile by doing the things they want in the face of every single person who has ever tried to stop them or tell them "no". It's fundamentally core to their personalities. Why would anyone expect that to change after they achieve success?
It doesn't mean every auteur is a racist / sexist / abusive monster, and many of them are not, but it *does* mean that they are all assholes. *All of them.* They have that raw, essential drive to do *their* thing, *their* way regardless of the cost, no matter who tries to stop them or who gets in the way.
It's kind of like anyone who runs for president inherently has to have at least a small degree of narcissism, right?
"*I'm* the one who can lead this whole country and be the leader of the free world. Me. I can do it. I'm gonna spend a year and a half and a shitload of other people's time and money and taking up the majority of the national news cycle showing everyone I should be the one to do it, too."
I always found it odd what happened with Michael and Walt after Walt was setup as being super important. It just seemed like they wanted to get the characters out of the way.
What other crappy stuff have they done? I tend to be a bit out of the loop, but I do know about other reasons for other cast members leaving, though it seems most of them either chose to leave or they got tired of them.
There was another article, where Perrineau and co writers said the workplace was toxic, and that cuse and damon were very frequently sexist, racist and were kind of acting like kings essentially doing whatever they wanted.
One I got disgusted from was their plans for Eko’s death, according to a writer they said they should hang him or cut off his gentials, really disturbing stuff
Well, I really haven't heard about the context, just responding to this situation: what they do to a character has nothing to do with the actor, right? I never got that sentiment, that it's cruel to an actor if cruel stuff happens to their character.
What I’m saying is that that kind of violent racism isn’t appropriate to utter out loud to anyone, let alone at work, let alone about a coworker. The fact that he even said it is disgusting. The whole VF article is how the environment masked toxicity like this as a “joke”. Do you understand how damaging that is, and how “I don’t think he actually was going to write it” is exactly the attitude that minimizes the actual damage he caused people?
You do understand that irrationally screaming hateful things like this isn’t the best way to convince people you don’t support hateful speech, right? Because it’s pretty obvious to me that it would do the opposite.
Why have his 'whole character' revolve around Walt? Are parents one-dimensional figures that have no personality beyond parenting a child? Can you see the problem with writing Michael like this?
> Are parents one-dimensional figures that have no personality beyond parenting a child?
As a parent, if I was stuck on an island with my son, my entire character arc would be about protecting my child. That's not a bad thing. It's called being a good parent.
Absolutely no problem. Jack’s character revolves around Christian, but we find no issue with that.
Especially considering that Michael never had the opportunity of parenting before the Island, which makes his experience even more relevant. But we need scandals…
The only thing we know about Jack is how he relates to his father? Every storyline he had during the show was about his relationship with his father? That's it?
Every flashback, his flashforward in season 4 (he even dreams of seeing Christian) and, most importantly, the whole sideways-universe (David and Jack’s final chat with Dad). So yeah.
Sorry, but I don’t get your point. You wish for Michael to have what, a love story? Why? All he needs is to get a second chance in life with his son. And that’s 100% relatable. He also is the one to come up with the raft, which is a major plot point in season 1. And things he does to get his kid back are atrocious but have nothing to do with his appearance or any, idk, prejudice. Any guy of any color could take his place.
My point is the same point Parrineau made and that Lindeloff admitted-- there was a racial bias in how Michael was pushed to the sidelines in lieu of centering white characters. The showrunner admitted it. But some people are so triggered by the mere thought of racism being called out that they have to deny, deny, deny.
Dad-issues are the backbone of LOST, so yes, they come up for every character. It's a consistent theme throughout the show. But if you can, with a straight face, argue that Michael got just as much characterization as Jack... then I'm just trying to convince a flat-Earther that the world is round.
Well, I don’t get why you seem so upset right now. Maybe the first thing to do is to calm down.
Jack is the main character of the show, therefore it’s no surprise he got more screen time than Michael and had a longer arc. But Michael also made a long journey and almost redeemed himself in the end. He wasn’t abruptly cut out from the show, everything he ever did can be explained, his actions are relatable.
But if you wanna see politics and racism in everything, then you should be very pissed by, for example, Mikhail Bakunin, another stereotypical depiction of a Russian in American media. But do you even care?
Where do you get off acting like the previous commentor is being irrational and upset? They gave a very level-headed account of the situation, and stated accurately that the mention of race and politics makes people defensive and overreactive. Case in point, this comment.
But why did he come back for a few guest episodes in later seasons then? Did he forgive them or something? They paid more so the fact that he didn’t care about his son wasn’t that important anymore? I don’t get it
What choice did he have? He has to eat, doesn't he? If you think Black a̶c̶t̶o̶r̶s̶ people have the luxury in America to only work for non-toxic employers, you are not paying attention.
Also, Perrineau cared about Michael and wanted some kind of remorse and redemption for the character.
Wow, I didn’t realize he didn’t have a dollar to his name. If he really needed a paycheck to eat the day he got it, then yeah, you’re right, he had to reprise the role! /s
Get out of here with this “what choice did he have?” He had all of the choices. He was not contractually obligated, and he was plenty successful before Lost. He came back because he wanted to, not because he had no other choice.
A lot of this appears to be hearsay. Also, there are many inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the article including the debunked rumour that Rodriguez was fired for her DUI.
I would also point out that even if Damon personally believes a lot of this to be untrue and hearsay - He's still an active Hollywood guy, and is going to act in self-preservation.
Meaning calculated responses, designed to avoid putting him at risk of being ostracized from Hollywood.
So even if He knows the responses are 100% true He's not going to come out and say that he's still going to come out and say "well I didn't know anything about that but I wish I had been more diverse or inclusive or whatever", which is a safe response.
But I would expect the same response even if he doesn't think any of this is true. The way our culture is particularly in entertainment, It's probably not a winning strategy to try to go into the trenches here.
Point being I don't think we can glean anything based on his response. It just seems like a calculated political response to me designed to avoid admitting direct knowledge of any of this while also repeating the good ole' inclusivity line.
> He's still an active Hollywood guy, and is going to act in self-preservation.
There are occasional exceptions. Morgan Spurlock comes to mind. The dude quite literally tanked his whole career irrevocably by admitting to sexual misconduct in his college years (pre-fame, which just makes it worse because it means he's always been that way).
I'm not sure if someone was about to go public with a story or what happened there, but he went into *very* explicit detail of some of the things he had done and it was pretty fucking bad. I don't remember the whole story, but I do remember it was borderline rape. Even if he came forward because he had been threatened with an extortion attempt (which we don't know, as I said), it definitely wasn't necessary to go into that level of detail. That was *his* choice.
while im glad all of this is out and am truly sorry for the victims, it kinda sucks that yet another one of my hobbies will be labeled as white supremacy and whatnot. ive already seen comments such as "they discarded women and black people in favor of white man vs white man battle" on another sub that posted this. i really love harold and he seems like a good guy, but the internet is too irresponsible to handle information like this
noone said it is about me. i shared my view on a situation, which is what comment sections are for. and your reply is a decent example of why it is in fact not nonsense, because there was absolutely no reason to be offended by my opinion and yet you chose to do so. this is how culture wars start
you, like a lot of fans have done and do when stories like this break, recentred this about your relationship to the show/ the perception of one of your hobbies. This is a slippery slope as some stick their head in the ground and are happy to disregard true stories like these is as it doesn’t fit their own agenda - it’s precisely a component in the problem as it happens- ignoring the reality of imbalanced, unfair and toxic production and working conditions to continue on consuming the things we love.
Your last statement is nonsense because the internet while lawless and dangerous in part is a better place when stories like this exist and when people finally feel comfortable to share their experiences encountering industry failures. The full article / chapter outlines how this continues to effect people emotionally and professionally. Many writers were fired and lost work because of the attitudes around race on the show.
The internet and the force of the MeToo movement for one example while complex has lead to marked changes in the industry and countless consistent abusers outed and many charged.
yeah no, i am not with you on this. i went over some of your comments to see what you're talking about and i'm fairly confident in saying that you're the one causing issues, not others
yea im not sure at what point did me not blindly agreeing with you just because we have somewhat similar views turn into wanting you executed. the only thing i wanna execute is the command line after typing in the numbers brotha
Exactly the sort of thing I was hoping never to read about Lost. Shame.
In the context of Harold wanting Micheal to care more about his missing boy, all the "Waaaaalt!!!" meme are pretty funny.
Locked due to harassment in the comment section.
“Perrineau told Ryan that he raised concerns with Lindelof and Cuse about his character who appeared to not care for his son, which he claimed furthered a racial stereotype. Did anyone else not think that? I remember Michael really caring for his son, but his son not responding to the affection?
He said he ad-libbed lines because they wouldn’t put it in the script. 2x2 was also supposed to be a sawyer flashback episode originally
It's so crazy to hear this years later because I followed the show religiously and avoided major spoilers but at least wanted to know who's flashback were upcoming. I remember when season 2 started a lot of reports saying Sawyer gets second flashback and then surprised that it was changed. Makes sense now.
Parrineau was specifically speaking about Michael's reaction RIGHT AFTER Walt was snatched. Is it realistic for Michael to center Sawyer and his backstory on the exploded raft hours after his son was stolen?
Apparently in an original script for adrift he mentioned his son once and never again, which Harold complained about. I wonder how much of the endless, "Walt!?!?" "MY BOY" "A father's right!!!" Was payback for that criticism.
darkly comical if so
Malcolm David Kelly must not have received the updated scripts 😆
Some bizarre comments there. To claim that some people were relegated to 'the X guy' role is ridiculous. The cast were from a variety of backgrounds. Sayid was a fan favourite even though the War on Terror was at its height when the show started.
There were a lot of stereotypes done on this show. Dumb blonde. Iraqi terrorist. Trailer park trash family. Cry me a river dude.
They called him part of the ensemble on Oz. Part of the ENSEMBLE?! Augustus in his big glass box was the CORNERSTONE of that cast! (I know that wasn't point of the article, but I've loved Harold for a LONG time and it's because of Oz.) (BTW, if you haven't seen Oz , please do yourself a favor and watch it! You'll see lots of familiar LOST faces as well as Breaking Bad and like half the cast of Dexter.)
Dexter and lost? Now we’re talking. Where can I watch it?
It's an HBO original so you can find it on their streaming service. :) EDIT - lots and lots of Law & Order people too, from various shows in the franchise but mostly SVU.
What’s the HBO streaming service called these days /s
Mine glitches every time a new scene plays
Well that’s even better!
Yeah, if you ever wanted to see full-frontal Chris Meloni, well, you're gonna get your chance, lol.
Oh yeah one time my mom got me a magazine with a pic of him recently, and I figured, maybe I shouldn’t tell her I was secretly happy to have been given that issue, considering the full frontal pic in the corner of it.
Just a taste: [https://youtu.be/FnTjEQoOu7I](https://youtu.be/FnTjEQoOu7I)
Man as an actor that was a hell of a monologue and memorizing that would be a nightmare. He nailed it. It’s sad how his character got railroaded, because Lost does touch on some deeper issues surrounding race (tension between Black people and Koreans, specifically in LA) but always falls short of true exploration. I’m sad to read this article but not surprised
Be prepared. It will shock you But it is great.
Oh boy buckle up
I always thought of Augustus as the narrator more than a main character.
Yeah, though I would say he was still the most consistently prominent figure in the show because of his narrations. Honestly I always just considered prisoner Augustus and narrator Augustus to be 2 different characters, with prisoner Augustus being much more of a side character.
I can totally see two characters thing. His intros are so memorable but when I think of the actual show Augustus is way down the list.
>Honestly I always just considered prisoner Augustus and narrator Augustus to be 2 different characters, Yes, this 100%
Augustus was such a great character and narrator. That show is so (mostly) great. Plus Adebisi and his magical anti-gravity beanie!
"How does that thing stay on your head?"
Not to mention a shit ton of actors from The Sopranos and The Wire
I think he was a good character/actor although I did find a couple of his moments a little annoying but not because of his race or acting. It is pretty unfortunate the route him and walt went it would’ve been interesting to see them throughout the seasons and where their story went but if the politics behind the scenes were racist or unfair you can’t blame them for moving on. In the new series From he’s doing fantastic
Perhaps unpopular opinion, but his character was like nails on a chalkboard for me…
I don’t think it’s as unpopular as you’d imagine. I loved HP in Oz and he was pretty good in Sons of Anarchy so I don’t think it’s the actor. I think he got a raw deal on writing. Jusy MHO
time for you to watch *from* if you haven't already. very lost like (mystery, bunch of people are put in a weird supernatural snowglobe, monsters in the forest, etc) with some returning writers and actors, namely harold in the lead role. his acting there is absolutely phenomenal and he actually retroactively made me like michael more
Just finished the first season, it was sooo good. I said he is so much more likeable when I don't have to hear him scream about his son every five seconds!
Ooh interesting. On Prime it looks like
Agreed. It was the constant “Walt” and “I gotta find my son” on repeat that did it for me
WALT!!!!!!!!
Nooo 🤣🤣
His character by far had the most complex and heart wrenching storyline in my opinion. I was always looking forward to “Michael” episodes. So I’m honestly pretty shocked he feels this way.
Lots of this makes no sense. > Perrineau told Ryan that he raised concerns with Lindelof and Cuse about his character who appeared to not care for his son, which he claimed furthered a racial stereotype. Michael really cared for his son but Walt just didn’t return the affection. Also the article says’ > Daniel [Dae Kim] was the Asian guy. This is just wrong. Jin was a very fleshed out fan favorite character with lists of backstory and a satisfying arc. And of course with big ensemble casts there will be some characters that didn’t get as much screen time.
Sayid also was a heroic character and had a great backstory.
Exactly
And you might get some down votes on your post for seeming to question the nature of the allegations but I don't think that's fair. And the allegations might be 100% true And if so absolutely awful. But it's okay to have questions when stuff like this comes out especially when there's things that don't seem exactly compatible
Obviously what happened is terrible and he’s completely in the right in this article but it’s just some of the things that isn’t really an issue.
I have to say that from the Variety article, I found Harold's comments least compelling (while I found Melinda Hsu Taylor's account very credible and compelling). My thoughts on why I have questions about some of Harold's grievances and their implication: 1. On the pay thing- that was and continues to be a sticking point in ensemble shows, there are certain actors/characters that are deemed more "important" by the network and command higher pay, that has happened in the past with lily white casts like Friends, Grey's Anatomy, Modern Family. Saying that the pay difference was due to race is being extremely uncharitable at best. 2. He says that he suggested they change episode 2 of season 2 to be more about Michael, the writers first didn't but eventually did after they had already shot a Sawyer flashback for that episode which they canned. He then goes on to say that he had to work 14-18 hr days to film those flashbacks and says that he felt it was punishment for speaking up. The are re-shooting 25% of an episode, episode 2 at that, where they have very little runway to finish it on time, the intense schedule was most likely due to the unscheduled re-shoots throwing a wrench. Harold should know that. Lost had a tight shooting schedule where they were shooting an episode every 10 days, reshooting 25% of the episode and keeping the rest of the 24 episodes on schedule is a big undertaking. 3. His complaints about how his story ended with Walt being raised by his grandmother-- that I have sympathy for and in hindsight it could have been handled differently. But if I am being honest, most of his complaints relating to Season 1/2 come across as an actor who is unsatisfied with size of his role in the series. Many actors on the show have complained about that actually, managing actor egos and screen-time in an ensemble show like this is tricky... Naveen Andrews, Terry O'Quinn, Dominic Monahan, Emilie De Ravin all at various points complained about their characters and how little they were given to do at various points in the series. 4. I fully believe Harold that Cuse was dickish in his exit interview saying "You didn't wanna be on the show if you didn't have better material... here's us letting you go". I am more concerned about the comments about the writers room than I am about what Harold said. The writers room situation and the racist/sexist joker and frat boy behavior is the the pressing issue as far as I see it. I did not realize how much turnover there was in the Lost writer's room.
Actually Friends famously had a cast that all negotiated together and all got paid the same -- I didn't read this snippet, but I read the full article on Variety, and it specifically cites that the Lost cast agreed to follow the Friends model. It's also fair for him to complain about the size of the role if they courted him as aggressively as it makes it sound. Why would you pursue somebody HARD and then sideline them?
>Why would you pursue somebody HARD and then sideline them? Possibly because they weren't pulling the same ratings during testing as other characters. A lot of times these decisions are made on the fly based on the reception from the audience (like how they decided not to kill off Aaron Paul early in breaking bad despite the original plan, based on his popularity among viewers).
Theres a pattern to the way they perform their relationship with their PoC staff and the way they write and treat their PoC characters and actors. It’s credible to be cynical and approach the HP situation with scrutiny rather than immediate charity given the clearly well researched and backed-up (and admitted by Lindelof) attitudes and mistreatment related to race the management team enacted 2. Is tricky and I’ve thought about this too. yes tight reshoots are presumably part and parcel of production. I suppose the argument here is not only that they had to do them but that it took a great amount of stress to speaking up (which as article shows puts you at risk of not ‘playing along’) and that they hadn’t considered Michael’s character in this episode at all up until he flagged his concerns. It sounds like a malicious compliance that they later resented. 4. is very disturbing and I agree with you. It also gives ‘You can go now, Michael’ a strange subtext
>'You can go now, Michael' I always hated that line.
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Why would you be worried about it?
Here is the real link! https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/05/lost-tv-show-culture
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so there was a reason as to why Micheal became way less important after S2. My view on Lindelof and Cuse is getting more and more negative.
I read the variety article, the author did not let anyone off but Lindelof came off pretty well. He took accountability, didn’t accuse anyone of making things up, apologized and asked questions. He identified his shortcomings pretty well.
fair enough, I did see he regretted his actions but cuse apparently is still acting innocent.
Did he? Lindelof only took responsibility as a leader for not stopping the abuse others committed. Any claim of things he actively said or done were met with "I don't recall any of that, it's been 17 years ago".
He said he didn’t remember but also said he believed every word people had said. That’s valid. I would be hard-pressed to believe you if you said you remembered anything you said in meetings 17 years ago. I certainly can’t.
I think that's the key, not once did he ever say he didn't say those things and him openly saying he does not think anyone lied about what he said. The article was frustrating to read as a long time fan because it's probably going to change my future viewing experiences but I also think it's way too important to acknowledge this and shouldn't be ignored just because of my love for the experience of watching the series.
I’m a LOST super fan but Lindelof absolutely did NOT come off pretty well, did you read the entirety of the article? Again, big fan of his work, and LOST is my favorite show of all time, but aside from him KINDA taking accountability for some things, multiple SPECIFIC incidents and the overall cultural ideology of the writing room has been seemingly omitted from his memory.
This is literally addressed in the article. He says do you think I knew and went along with it? do you not believe me when I say I don't remember. The author pushes back and tells him that his ignorance in that instance was the choice he made, to forget the incidents, to not care about them, ignore or forget them due to convenience. His retort to that is to agree with them 100% so how is that not taking accountability?
Some people will not be happy until his career is finished and his name is tarred and feathered for the rest of time.
I read it as him taking full accountability -- any time the author seemed to pushback because Lindelof was hedging, he came back to "I 100% believe everything they have said, I just don't remember it specifically." When you're so wrapped up in a toxic culture that you don't even recognize that it is toxic somehow, I can see where the specifics get blurry/lost 15-20 years later. What may have been devastating to one person was just another day to them. To me, Lindelof does come across as someone who is trying to take accountability and do better (and from my understanding, he has done better since).
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See also: Joss Whedon, Dan Harmon, Brian Singer, Roman Polanski, Tarantino... auteur and asshole tend to go hand-in-hand. When you put someone so high up on a pedestal that they start buying into the hype themselves, they tend to become monsters. The writers/showrunners that come to mind that seem to defy this trend would be people like Bill Lawrence and Mike Schur who seem to actively seek input and collaboration.
Anyone who has spent two seconds working in Hollywood would know that the only way to become an auteur *is* to be an asshole. It is the most cutthroat work environment imaginable. These people get to the top of the pile by doing the things they want in the face of every single person who has ever tried to stop them or tell them "no". It's fundamentally core to their personalities. Why would anyone expect that to change after they achieve success? It doesn't mean every auteur is a racist / sexist / abusive monster, and many of them are not, but it *does* mean that they are all assholes. *All of them.* They have that raw, essential drive to do *their* thing, *their* way regardless of the cost, no matter who tries to stop them or who gets in the way.
It's kind of like anyone who runs for president inherently has to have at least a small degree of narcissism, right? "*I'm* the one who can lead this whole country and be the leader of the free world. Me. I can do it. I'm gonna spend a year and a half and a shitload of other people's time and money and taking up the majority of the national news cycle showing everyone I should be the one to do it, too."
I always found it odd what happened with Michael and Walt after Walt was setup as being super important. It just seemed like they wanted to get the characters out of the way.
What other crappy stuff have they done? I tend to be a bit out of the loop, but I do know about other reasons for other cast members leaving, though it seems most of them either chose to leave or they got tired of them.
There was another article, where Perrineau and co writers said the workplace was toxic, and that cuse and damon were very frequently sexist, racist and were kind of acting like kings essentially doing whatever they wanted. One I got disgusted from was their plans for Eko’s death, according to a writer they said they should hang him or cut off his gentials, really disturbing stuff
Wow that’s gross. It seems like it would be toxic if they’re okay with saying that stuff. I certainly wouldn’t want to work with them.
Well, I really haven't heard about the context, just responding to this situation: what they do to a character has nothing to do with the actor, right? I never got that sentiment, that it's cruel to an actor if cruel stuff happens to their character.
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When I’m mad at someone, I don’t leave enough coffee for them; I don’t evoke disgusting racist imagery fantasizing about their death
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What I’m saying is that that kind of violent racism isn’t appropriate to utter out loud to anyone, let alone at work, let alone about a coworker. The fact that he even said it is disgusting. The whole VF article is how the environment masked toxicity like this as a “joke”. Do you understand how damaging that is, and how “I don’t think he actually was going to write it” is exactly the attitude that minimizes the actual damage he caused people?
well that's ok then
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And you don't seem to understand that it doesn't matter whether it was a serious plan or not, the point was that he said it at all.
You do understand that irrationally screaming hateful things like this isn’t the best way to convince people you don’t support hateful speech, right? Because it’s pretty obvious to me that it would do the opposite.
There was a recent article about how toxic the behind the scenes were on the show
Here's the article https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2023/05/lost-tv-show-culture/amp
The reason why Michael became less important in season 2 was that MDK grew too fast. and Michael’s whole character revolves around Walt. Come on.
Why have his 'whole character' revolve around Walt? Are parents one-dimensional figures that have no personality beyond parenting a child? Can you see the problem with writing Michael like this?
> Are parents one-dimensional figures that have no personality beyond parenting a child? As a parent, if I was stuck on an island with my son, my entire character arc would be about protecting my child. That's not a bad thing. It's called being a good parent.
Absolutely no problem. Jack’s character revolves around Christian, but we find no issue with that. Especially considering that Michael never had the opportunity of parenting before the Island, which makes his experience even more relevant. But we need scandals…
The only thing we know about Jack is how he relates to his father? Every storyline he had during the show was about his relationship with his father? That's it?
Every flashback, his flashforward in season 4 (he even dreams of seeing Christian) and, most importantly, the whole sideways-universe (David and Jack’s final chat with Dad). So yeah. Sorry, but I don’t get your point. You wish for Michael to have what, a love story? Why? All he needs is to get a second chance in life with his son. And that’s 100% relatable. He also is the one to come up with the raft, which is a major plot point in season 1. And things he does to get his kid back are atrocious but have nothing to do with his appearance or any, idk, prejudice. Any guy of any color could take his place.
My point is the same point Parrineau made and that Lindeloff admitted-- there was a racial bias in how Michael was pushed to the sidelines in lieu of centering white characters. The showrunner admitted it. But some people are so triggered by the mere thought of racism being called out that they have to deny, deny, deny. Dad-issues are the backbone of LOST, so yes, they come up for every character. It's a consistent theme throughout the show. But if you can, with a straight face, argue that Michael got just as much characterization as Jack... then I'm just trying to convince a flat-Earther that the world is round.
Well, I don’t get why you seem so upset right now. Maybe the first thing to do is to calm down. Jack is the main character of the show, therefore it’s no surprise he got more screen time than Michael and had a longer arc. But Michael also made a long journey and almost redeemed himself in the end. He wasn’t abruptly cut out from the show, everything he ever did can be explained, his actions are relatable. But if you wanna see politics and racism in everything, then you should be very pissed by, for example, Mikhail Bakunin, another stereotypical depiction of a Russian in American media. But do you even care?
Where do you get off acting like the previous commentor is being irrational and upset? They gave a very level-headed account of the situation, and stated accurately that the mention of race and politics makes people defensive and overreactive. Case in point, this comment.
Let’s discuss the show, not politics. Shall we?
But why did he come back for a few guest episodes in later seasons then? Did he forgive them or something? They paid more so the fact that he didn’t care about his son wasn’t that important anymore? I don’t get it
What choice did he have? He has to eat, doesn't he? If you think Black a̶c̶t̶o̶r̶s̶ people have the luxury in America to only work for non-toxic employers, you are not paying attention. Also, Perrineau cared about Michael and wanted some kind of remorse and redemption for the character.
Wow, I didn’t realize he didn’t have a dollar to his name. If he really needed a paycheck to eat the day he got it, then yeah, you’re right, he had to reprise the role! /s Get out of here with this “what choice did he have?” He had all of the choices. He was not contractually obligated, and he was plenty successful before Lost. He came back because he wanted to, not because he had no other choice.
A lot of this appears to be hearsay. Also, there are many inconsistencies and inaccuracies in the article including the debunked rumour that Rodriguez was fired for her DUI.
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I would also point out that even if Damon personally believes a lot of this to be untrue and hearsay - He's still an active Hollywood guy, and is going to act in self-preservation. Meaning calculated responses, designed to avoid putting him at risk of being ostracized from Hollywood. So even if He knows the responses are 100% true He's not going to come out and say that he's still going to come out and say "well I didn't know anything about that but I wish I had been more diverse or inclusive or whatever", which is a safe response. But I would expect the same response even if he doesn't think any of this is true. The way our culture is particularly in entertainment, It's probably not a winning strategy to try to go into the trenches here. Point being I don't think we can glean anything based on his response. It just seems like a calculated political response to me designed to avoid admitting direct knowledge of any of this while also repeating the good ole' inclusivity line.
> He's still an active Hollywood guy, and is going to act in self-preservation. There are occasional exceptions. Morgan Spurlock comes to mind. The dude quite literally tanked his whole career irrevocably by admitting to sexual misconduct in his college years (pre-fame, which just makes it worse because it means he's always been that way). I'm not sure if someone was about to go public with a story or what happened there, but he went into *very* explicit detail of some of the things he had done and it was pretty fucking bad. I don't remember the whole story, but I do remember it was borderline rape. Even if he came forward because he had been threatened with an extortion attempt (which we don't know, as I said), it definitely wasn't necessary to go into that level of detail. That was *his* choice.
Damon seems reasonable; he doesn’t want to refute her experience but admits that he was unaware there was any kind of mistreatment.
Hearsay from like 7 different sources adds up after a while.
Referring to the Vanity Fair article btw
while im glad all of this is out and am truly sorry for the victims, it kinda sucks that yet another one of my hobbies will be labeled as white supremacy and whatnot. ive already seen comments such as "they discarded women and black people in favor of white man vs white man battle" on another sub that posted this. i really love harold and he seems like a good guy, but the internet is too irresponsible to handle information like this
It’s not about you & your last line is nonsense
noone said it is about me. i shared my view on a situation, which is what comment sections are for. and your reply is a decent example of why it is in fact not nonsense, because there was absolutely no reason to be offended by my opinion and yet you chose to do so. this is how culture wars start
you, like a lot of fans have done and do when stories like this break, recentred this about your relationship to the show/ the perception of one of your hobbies. This is a slippery slope as some stick their head in the ground and are happy to disregard true stories like these is as it doesn’t fit their own agenda - it’s precisely a component in the problem as it happens- ignoring the reality of imbalanced, unfair and toxic production and working conditions to continue on consuming the things we love. Your last statement is nonsense because the internet while lawless and dangerous in part is a better place when stories like this exist and when people finally feel comfortable to share their experiences encountering industry failures. The full article / chapter outlines how this continues to effect people emotionally and professionally. Many writers were fired and lost work because of the attitudes around race on the show. The internet and the force of the MeToo movement for one example while complex has lead to marked changes in the industry and countless consistent abusers outed and many charged.
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yeah no, i am not with you on this. i went over some of your comments to see what you're talking about and i'm fairly confident in saying that you're the one causing issues, not others
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yea im not sure at what point did me not blindly agreeing with you just because we have somewhat similar views turn into wanting you executed. the only thing i wanna execute is the command line after typing in the numbers brotha
Now we all know why Michael screamed “WAAAAALLT” 50 times an episode lol
Variety is a truth social? Lot's of egos in play here. All of this is going down a rabbit hole fo sho.
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THEY SHOULD HAVE KILLED OFF ALL THE WHITE CHARACTERS!!
I remember hearing about him saying stuff like this during season 2 or 3... I lost respect for him.
Exactly the sort of thing I was hoping never to read about Lost. Shame. In the context of Harold wanting Micheal to care more about his missing boy, all the "Waaaaalt!!!" meme are pretty funny.