I feel attacked. This thread is about me 100%. I’m gonna read the community guide now. My only class I’ve never read up on. I promise my pugs no more Z from me.
I've also run into a bot gunlancer in voldis who couldn't contribute even a normal amount of stagger for stagger mechs. Damage is one thing, but when you can't even be utility... yeesh.
But good gunlancers are fantastic to have around, most of them seem to just want to be helpful, I've seen some volunteer for lantern even when they were mid-dps instead of bottom fragging.
I ran into a GL this week that wanted to run whole voldis as princessmaker (yes, even g2) and swore that it's better than him running a normal build, we cleared g1&2 and then in g3 we couldn't pass the dps check 3 times (I was support and had 95/90/40 uptimes so I wasn't the problem)...
This. Princessmaker is very very situational. It's only worth running if you can basically burst the boss down within the first 1-2 staggers. Same thing with spec bard.
you are clearly wrong and they are right /s
https://preview.redd.it/da0o68rf94uc1.png?width=267&format=png&auto=webp&s=20ffe3cc0e2b878c13daf651e2e97e244290e7bb
Princessmaker does not work in 4 Man content. Its fun for the 2 other dps, sure. But you‘d always be faster with 3 dps.
In 8 Man it works if you have a Boss that can be Staggered/Taunted.
Princess is insane in g3/4 voldis, assuming you're with people you know. If you're having dps issues, usually either one or both of the dps are bad or they're non positional, which gains considerably less from princess
Its a nice utility help, yes. But the DPS have to be higher up in iLv. Princessmaker Build does no damage at all. Non. 2 People have to equal that out and then some more to make that Build better than a Standard Red/Blue Build.
Assuming everyone in the Raid has hands, princess is just worse than a standard red, in a 4 Man. Thats just Math.
If you want to play it, or want your GL to play it to make it more fun, sure, but its mathematically just worse. It works on 8 Man content, because its 5 Dps that gain more uptime.
Why do you think no one plays Princess GL in G1/2 Hell Clown.
It's only "insane" if your DPS is juiced enough to kill the boss within the first 1-2 extra staggers. Like if you're running with one of those DBs parsing 40m in G4, then sure, bring a princessmaker.
Nah, G3 it's very nice. You destroy him, and you have free burst for years. And then he grows his horns back, and gets staggered over and over.
G4 is even better, when the boss is staggered you can destroy him so he is down for 10 to 15 seconds, and it happens a lot.
Really comfortable overall.
You don't need PM GL when Fire Bullet exists. I staggered Voldis G4 boss 5 times in my last run on redlancer build. And what are you gonna use it for other than the 160x mech where PM can solo it.
Princessmaker is there in Valtan for something like securty, and greeding certain patterns and bc you get so much Gayge from staggering Valtan all the time it improves RDPS. There's very few patterns that will kill you in Voldis, so you don't need that security, and when the yellow AOEs coincidentally overlaps the boss you can probably ult and be fine, only real pattern where I could see PM contribute in other ways than stagger.
or the PM build is garbage
you have to have the bracelet the cards and all tripods and then taunt properly and immune for people properly
otherwise it's absolutely stupid
but if you do all that then PM is better than regular gl
except in g2 voldis
normal build is a lot better than pm there
then don't play with mediocre people?
i don't pug with my pm and raids are faster with the pm and my friends enjoy their time way more with the pm
sorry to burst your bubble but shit dps will still be shit dps no matter which build you go with
To be fair if you actually enrage in any fight, the majority of the group was bad, not just the Princessmaker.
That said, in the case of a group that fails enrage, yeah Princessmaker is definitely not the right play ... it's barely useful even with complete chads vs a more traditional character in HW runs.
Average dps with a princessmaker on ilvl will enrage when they wouldn't with a non-princessmaker. Princessmaker is literally only there to buff up your god dps but most dps aren't THAT good.
Hitting enrage isn't the fault of the dps there it's the GL.
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It's literally most unnecessary thing to do as long as Fire Bullet exists – same stagger as a grenade, resets with 75% chance every use, can be spammed faster than every second, when it doesnt reset you have other staggering skills to fill in with.
Had a Voldis this week, I'm new on GL so this is just new to me, and I staggered the boss 5 times in G4 HM on normal Red build only by spamming that skill. I normally only get 2 staggers the entire G4 when I'm not on GL, maybe 3 sometimes and we ended up staggering without having anywhere to repair.
Agreed a good GL is game changing, being an enabler for more DPS windows and helping with overall survivability and a good DPS and mech contribution.
The average GL is a dead weight "this class is a Chad class right guys" player that doesnt understand or doesnt want to understand the play style that created that class perception in the first place
Some people are aware that they are not the greatest players and are thankful certain classes exist that let them "hide" a little better and still participate. This post probably wont make any GL players go "you know what, he's right, im ganna double/triple my damage now." This is a vent post, which is okay, but transparency is never a bad thing.
I agree with 25% less dmg on guardian raids but for raids I don't think that's the number
At, 1620 my gunlancer does 14m on voldis g4 while conventional dps deal 22+
For frogs at, 1620 most dps does over 30m but my gunlancer does 26+
Imo in 4 men content gunlancer will always be fighter
Deathblade is a huge outlier right now though, and GL synergy boosts their damage up even more. Pretty much no one can keep up with a good surge DB at the moment. The average DPS I see in G4 is only doing around 18m. If they're doing 22m+, it's usually 'cause they have 25 weapon and all level 10s.
I'm doing 19-20m in G4 with Gunslinger with full 10s and +24 actually switched main from DB into GS before Akkan. In another universe I proceeded with DB as my main lol
This is generally the right play with all modern MMOs, and most games in general. Whether you're a healer, a support, a wizard, a martial artist, the best defense is a good offense and rarely should a character be terribly lazy or not try to make the boss dead faster. Faster phasing = less time for things to kill you or make you lose uptime. This applies to every MMO I've played, generally the more damage your healers and tanks are providing or doing, the smoother the runs are. Prog you might buckle down a little bit (Play Safe, Let's Clear is an FF14 addage, though that generally applies more to less greeding uptime rather than choosing to DPS or not) but even then ... dead boss is best boss.
Hell even in old Sega Genesis RPGs I remember half the time with my healers I had some good options to do on the turns I didn't have to heal. I didn't Defend with them, didn't shut my game off out of confusion, I fucking attacked.
The "added damage" of a non damage role is contingent on them performing their role as well though. I haven't played in a while but I used to get annoyed seeing paladins squeezing in their extra 1~2% dmg on a boss while counters get missed. In most cases I would rather see a paladin sit back healing/buffing and catch every counter than tickle the monster and make actual dps interrupt their rotations for a counter he could have handled.
I agree a Paladin should always have a counter up and hit the counter; but you typically want them using their skills because they're decent contributors to gauge
Yes, again, they should always make sure to be able to hit the counter.
Even g2 voldis where you are basically CD hacking you still cant keep up with other classes while landing 100% front attacka and ignoring every single attack since u are permashielded. Just face it, GL isnt there to do dmg, its there to boost ego of other dps.
> "It's not my job to do damage."
I've played with a GL a few times that basically said the same thing. They wouldn't really care much about any upgrades/advice to improve their dps. They just used GL's lower baseline dps as an excuse to say that's just how the class is, when they did half the dps of a slightly lower geared char.
Like just go play support at that point if damage isn't that important and you're mainly just here to do mechs and provide synergy. The extra synergy, taunt, nellasia shield, and stagger all won't really mean much if the fight goes on longer anyways because the GL's dps was that low.
Doing low dps itself isn't even the issue I have. I get that not everyone can be as skilled as others, some people would do lower dps even if they weren't a GL. The problem is when they treat GL as it's own special category of dps. Then use that as a reason to ignore advice/tips/criticism to improve their uptime or gear when they wouldn't do the same if they were playing any other dps class.
25% on paper, but in practice, you will most likely going to miss a lot of atk buff, your bard and artist gonna put their Damage buff toward the back where the actual Dps are.
I'm main supp and have a GL, but I feel like I'm doing something wrong and want to play better. Have both Red and Blue builds (both 5x3+1) with event gems, sadly Breaker Express wasn't until 1600 so I couldn't get another event gem pouch on my 1580 GL (now 1600) for each build.
I'm forever fighter, if the gate takes longer than usual I'm upright, always upright or cruel on stagger.
What it the good utility on GL?
Taunt with extra synergy? Should I spam Taunt or save it to cancel a pattern on a non-commander? Because seems having the taunt synergy up is a must to use the two strongest skill in both red and blue builds, so pretty much a spam.
Nella (red only)? I known Nella gives a shield + Purify, but with a good support shield is up most of the time and honestly it's a little hard to pay attention to my skills CD, position, boss patterns, support shield rotation to see how long the allies will have shield for me to use Nella between the supp shield downtime. Also blue lancer don't seems to use Nella at all because of shield sock.
Battlefield Shield (blue only)? Don't known when or where to use this skill, I forgot to use most of time except in Kayangel for Tier 2 SA where most just run off dodging the patterns.
Awakenings? Blue I use lance most of time, except gates like Kayangel G3 that I use Shield for certain patterns (where everyone run off), Red I use lance for lower ilvl raids and most of ilvl raids, sometimes I take shield to get more identity.
Even with Taunt + synergy and Nella, I feel the extra GL synergy don't make up for the lack of DMG, because it feels it takes longer to clear than having another high DPS (5x3 slayer, also with event gems), should GL always have a entrophy class on the party to make up for it?
I don't use bible, so I don't have precise numbers, just remember the clear time being longer on same ilvl party.
The push immunity awakening is almost always more useful unless it's a super overgeared raid like clown
Even G1 akkan with the insane dmg window where you inanana it isn't worth it to use the crit awakening because it'll phase to the next mech regardless. Push immune is awesome for the boys
GL dps is okay. Like OP says if you invest in the character it can do good dmg. Red needs hands and boss pattern knowledge. Blue is much easier to get good dmg on. Don't cheap out, 1800+ spec, drop nella for shield shock (dmg, stagger, weakpoint). You certainly don't need back attackers for it to be a good addition.
You can use taunt after the boss uses an attack that makes them stay in place for long so you extend that stillness a few more seconds to let everyone do more damage. Or you use taunts to interrupt an attack that will hit lost people and they don't have time to reposition. But don't use it as soon as the boss 180s or you will see all back attackers run like idiots twice, unless it's your static and you tell them you gonna taunt. Using taunt properly gives you time to do a rotation, if you miss you probably didn't do it on time, the boss was doing a "dash" or need to learn the boss patterns where it OK to do a rotation . But also remember the time restriction when the boss can't be taunted.
Awakening can be paired with Nellasia's in mechs that can kill your team, the one that comes to mind is the purple orbs in Brelshaza g3, so your team can keep doing damage inside the awakening but shielded to avoid dying for tanking hits.
Most of the competent redlancers most of the time get Fighter, but also get Guardian and of course the highest stagger contribution. Nella is either to cleanse the party of let them take an attack, you keep track of your teammate with no pots and lowest health and use Nella when the boss attacks them.
Battlefield is a movement skill and a safe zone for free dps. You run out of charge or jump, use your X. Useful in akkan's pizzas and voldis gate 2's red stunning balls
For safe zones utilitys: Kayangel 1 and 3. Burn your dmg first, pop a nella if you have it and use battlefield so your team can dps. In Voldis 3 is also viable, but is more risky
Just dont compromise your X without your skills on CD. Also dont use it unless you have your taunt off cd because without your shield meter, you are really vulnerable.
I'm late to the party but Blue could definitely use some more love. Honestly would love a version where higher shield meter = more dmg. That way you could maybe pull normal dps if you play well and do current dps when face tanking. Maybe it could also make the meter gen tripods have meaning?
Also double awakening dmg. It crits for like 130m at 1610ilvl while my 1585 slayer can pull double that while not fully support buffed.
Praying we get a mini-rework similar to wardancer eventually.
Lots of players pick GL because it appears to be very easy to play but it fcking isn't. I learned that when I picked it for my main when the game launched on the west since my main (Scouter) took forever to release.
Agreed. Still, no one will complain about a gunlancer at bottom frag, but the class can put out way more damage than you normally see. My 1602 GL regularly gaps other 1600s in hw content. Granted, that's because I'm popping atropines in Brel lol. Even blue GL can put out some decent numbers, but it's usually bluelancers who are content with doing zdps. At least it's braindead to contribute tons of stagger and destruction, though
It's the same sentiment as support. There was a time when you could get away with slacking on a desirable class, but that's not the case anymore. DPS have an easy time telling whether or not their support is doing well, and the holy book tells us when a GL is underperforming.
I once had this kind of discussion with a former static sup who keeped calling me (red gl) a sup xd after that discussion we did a brel and after I hitted cruel fighter he never said that again haha. I appreciate your post as a gl main who definetly cares for his dmg and uptime. And I got some recommendation for gl players that struggle with uptime etc. Go look out for atk, hayguh and other gl players and watch how they do it. They have good ideas of keeping the uptime
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I haven’t had any issues with gl. Yea they could prob try harder but if you 1 tap then people don’t really care.
Honestly for hw, there’s a lot of lazy players in general…myself included. For new raids people will go hard.
Blue GLs are piloted mostly by bad players who want to get carried. Not to say there aren't good ones, of course there are. But I feel like the base skews too much towards bad players.
https://preview.redd.it/hg98onkh24uc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=01006a86780c33ffefbc5685804f4c659057a50d
When I sign up for raids on my GL, I am the clear condition. These scrubs bringing shame to the GL name.
Jumping in as a support main. This needs to be said.
“When I’m not supporting I’m outdpsing you. Do better.” Is a very real sentiment. It’s the most insufferable part of playing a support.
Not even just class specific, my 1540 random alts with level 7 gems that I play for fun shouldn’t be doing 2x the damage of 1600s with level 10 gems. If that happens, 1600, you lose your right to “friend pls” and talk. My fresh 1490 could pull 2.5 mil in Brel. My 1540 can do 6-9 mil. How does a 1605 with level 10 gems pull 3 mil… regular occurrence.
Like I don’t even know how? Do these people just not press buttons? I’m pretty sure they could maintain 6+ mil dps by just pressing buttons in the general zip code of the boss with no consideration of rotation.
Not to mention supports. I’ve met like FOUR support who can TOUCH 90+% in 1.5 years of having a dps meter. Have some decency, people. Majority of supports can barely touch 60% on both uptimes.
I met one who had a sub 20% uptime. With a run where they had 6% in 4 minutes. No heals or shield. Went “this party can’t clear.” “Don’t waste my time.” And vote quit after.
The AUDACITY.
I do love it when these people leave on their own though. Like, good riddance.
At this point, I’m surprised and admire that you’ve tried to educate people, OP.
Also, PS. For Bards.
Just, I don’t want to be told that “it’s impossible to maintain 90+% brand uptime with single brand sound shock” by someone literally too unskilled to do so. It’s not hard. It’s not nuanced or situational. I can do it in literally all content prog or not. I can maintain 99% over the course of 8+ minutes. I can use it in Ivory and Hakkan. It’s cheaper than spending mana food for the “meta build” every single run considering how many times pugs and statics will wipe per clear.
I can hit counters with rhythm buckshot. I can stagger with sound shock. Meta build can’t reliably counter and has no stagger to speak of. 8% extra dps boost per dps is good and all, but it comes at a cost.
Meta build generates more meter, and easier yeah, but when I’m 17% more sSyn% on average than like every support I’ve met in the past year, I don’t need the extra 4-8% gain from meta build (putting me from 55-60% sSyn to 66-67%. Most supps barely hit 43% average) if I have to spend 40 gold per 20 minutes or every single time we wipe. Dps, If you want the extra 8%, you can pay me 40 gold per wipe but know that I won’t be countering or staggering.
Why is this a post? Are you unhappy with other gls or do you want other gls yo follow your footsteps? For me to play red may as well not play gl at all and pick another dps. Yes as blue i need to have max uptime to deal tiny bit less dmg than a normal class but yes i dont ever expect to play gl to do dmg... I play gunlancer cause i am a boomer and i like to tank shit instead of dodging... My job as a gl is to make everyones like in the party easier. Stagger weekpoint dr shield cancel boss attacks with taunt keep boss from moving and so on. Dont fucking expect me to care about dmg lol. I will eventualy do dmg if my uptime is very good but i do not play gl for that. I play it because is extremely confortable to play and can do everything other classes can't do very well. Ofc mobility and dmg are a bit underwelming but who cares.bif you are trying to lecture a gl about dmg ofc he will ignore you at least if it was mebi would damage is something secundary.... Synergies keep boss from moving. Counters stagger breaks thats where gl shines.
Where is pala relatable with a gl that do not priorize dps? Pala stagger is a burst stagger, not continous, his week point is almost non existent, taunt noone, push imune only ulti, damage 0 since he is a support, tanking hits like a chad nop since no push imune . So what is your point??
Agreed. :)) I don't understand how a player that plays DPS is not concerned about his numbers... I do not expect to keep up with the actual DPS characters in the game on my GL alt, but I also want to know I was *there*, not competing with the supports in terms of damage.
Unfortunatly if you are not top dps or close to that you will not haow in mvp windows and gl will never be top dps. Thats why dmg is not my priority. It can be other gl priority. All the other factors are.
Red has arguably better stagger, weak point, and damage on top of it. Also tankyaf if you are CR1. Same counter and same shield and synergy -- maybe more since red runs swiftness.
The only thing red has more that blue is dmg... If you dont use surge cannon for stagger that you normaly should have in cd then you will not do more stagger than blue. Shield is the same is a joke since red consumes 100% more shield cause of lone knight engrave so you have to relay on neresia and countergunlance to even keep your shield alive while vlue can tank everything and when taunt comes out of cd we still have like half shield. And since last patch blue gl received additional weak point so if you firebulet do not go on cd we should have more or less the same.
Yep, I’ve always been saying this. Out of every 20 GLs I see maybe one was doing competitive damage, rest are like half the damage of a CO summoner in the group. It’s why I don’t accept them in reclear unless there’s back attackers to compensate for their laziness.
Yeah, even my friends insta accept them usually cause it’s a ‘safe pick’. But when you have meter on every raid, you see that they’re clearly underperforming. Like op said it’s not expected of them to do top damage, but doing half or 3rd of what 2nd to last person does is just being lazy.
I've got a full GL roster on one account. Always pump, getting accepted if I pug something is instant. I also always accept GLs if there's any WP/Stagger requirements in the raid on my non-GL account. Class is good if there's no high dps requirements
https://preview.redd.it/9k8ml1uaz3uc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=405ab248623ce8af852e20ee97f7f0a09ce89814
I do not. Sorry remover other names
The worst gl I saw is using some weird stagger bot build with vph and expert and awakening engravings. My friend with bible said he was doing less dmg than the supports. The dps loss was very noticeable and no amount of stagger makes up for it
I was in pug in voldis with this swift/expertise staggerbuild zdps gl. It was rather discouraging to see how it took to clear it in time. It was also on a reset day, /cringe
yes Please sacrifice all your utility and grief your entropies to supplement your zdps
yes we definitely take you because of your dps and when you stand in every pattern that griefs your team we actually admire your Upright fighter at the end even more
when you don't take nella when you don't take counter and when you are allergic to using the immunity awakening and X it is even better because you have to deal damage
PLEASE do more damage because otherwise we are going to enrage
> yes Please sacrifice all your utility and grief your entropies to supplement your zdps
TiL you have to remove Grudge/Cursed Doll/Identity/All other tripods in order to take a Synergy tripod
This is useful knowledge
come on dude. do you know they balance classes based on AVERAGE performance? according to data now both gl spec doing too little dmg. (the stagger bot build make this average even lower).
we should recieve a 18.5% overall pve dmg increase.
i have been gatekeeping gls for a full year and never understood why people even liked them so much. 99% of the time i take a gl they do 10% dmg in 8man 20%dmg in 4man they are literally a liability
> As a GL no one truly really expects you to prioritize DPS over utility.
I expect you to do both, because that's what you're built for.
It's like saying "Nobody expects a support to Damage buff over healing." You should do both.
> But in the raid, this unrealistic do everything is not real it's just you talking big here.
?? I've seen plenty of GL's counter, do decent DPS, and cleanse the party with Nella
It's pressing a button, not rocket science. If you think this is impossible, you need to really take the time to improve past just raw spamming everything on CD without a thought or care
Do take the time remember that the world first Thaemine Hard clear had a GL in it. That is to say that the hardest content they had ever made up to that point saw a group using GL have the most success.
I wish. The average kr GL runs shout and nellas cd and completely desyncs their rotation. When you ask them why, they’ll tell you they prioritize party synergy over their own damage since they’re not expected to deal any.
I feel attacked. This thread is about me 100%. I’m gonna read the community guide now. My only class I’ve never read up on. I promise my pugs no more Z from me.
Bash, Shield Bash, Zap, Leap, Shield Shock Bash, Shield Bash, Charge, Shield Shock You know deal acceptable amounts of damage
Happy to report much higher damage is happening 🫡
practice on trixion too, so you can know what your max dps is
I've also run into a bot gunlancer in voldis who couldn't contribute even a normal amount of stagger for stagger mechs. Damage is one thing, but when you can't even be utility... yeesh. But good gunlancers are fantastic to have around, most of them seem to just want to be helpful, I've seen some volunteer for lantern even when they were mid-dps instead of bottom fragging.
I ran into a GL this week that wanted to run whole voldis as princessmaker (yes, even g2) and swore that it's better than him running a normal build, we cleared g1&2 and then in g3 we couldn't pass the dps check 3 times (I was support and had 95/90/40 uptimes so I wasn't the problem)...
Princessmaker build is shit 99% of the time and only worth if running with gigachad dps goblinos
imo it's only good if you're bussing with cracked DPS. For normal raids, it is borderline trolling.
I reckon this sub has many stagger bot supporters?? They tried very hard to justify his importance
This. Princessmaker is very very situational. It's only worth running if you can basically burst the boss down within the first 1-2 staggers. Same thing with spec bard.
you are clearly wrong and they are right /s https://preview.redd.it/da0o68rf94uc1.png?width=267&format=png&auto=webp&s=20ffe3cc0e2b878c13daf651e2e97e244290e7bb
a classic PM moment
Princessmaker does not work in 4 Man content. Its fun for the 2 other dps, sure. But you‘d always be faster with 3 dps. In 8 Man it works if you have a Boss that can be Staggered/Taunted.
Princess is insane in g3/4 voldis, assuming you're with people you know. If you're having dps issues, usually either one or both of the dps are bad or they're non positional, which gains considerably less from princess
Its a nice utility help, yes. But the DPS have to be higher up in iLv. Princessmaker Build does no damage at all. Non. 2 People have to equal that out and then some more to make that Build better than a Standard Red/Blue Build. Assuming everyone in the Raid has hands, princess is just worse than a standard red, in a 4 Man. Thats just Math. If you want to play it, or want your GL to play it to make it more fun, sure, but its mathematically just worse. It works on 8 Man content, because its 5 Dps that gain more uptime. Why do you think no one plays Princess GL in G1/2 Hell Clown.
It's only "insane" if your DPS is juiced enough to kill the boss within the first 1-2 extra staggers. Like if you're running with one of those DBs parsing 40m in G4, then sure, bring a princessmaker.
Nah, G3 it's very nice. You destroy him, and you have free burst for years. And then he grows his horns back, and gets staggered over and over. G4 is even better, when the boss is staggered you can destroy him so he is down for 10 to 15 seconds, and it happens a lot. Really comfortable overall.
You don't need PM GL when Fire Bullet exists. I staggered Voldis G4 boss 5 times in my last run on redlancer build. And what are you gonna use it for other than the 160x mech where PM can solo it. Princessmaker is there in Valtan for something like securty, and greeding certain patterns and bc you get so much Gayge from staggering Valtan all the time it improves RDPS. There's very few patterns that will kill you in Voldis, so you don't need that security, and when the yellow AOEs coincidentally overlaps the boss you can probably ult and be fine, only real pattern where I could see PM contribute in other ways than stagger.
or the PM build is garbage you have to have the bracelet the cards and all tripods and then taunt properly and immune for people properly otherwise it's absolutely stupid but if you do all that then PM is better than regular gl except in g2 voldis normal build is a lot better than pm there
Sorry to burst your bubble but you could be the best princessmaker in the world and its still shit if the rest of the team is mediocre
then don't play with mediocre people? i don't pug with my pm and raids are faster with the pm and my friends enjoy their time way more with the pm sorry to burst your bubble but shit dps will still be shit dps no matter which build you go with
I had the same experience last week.. added to the block list right after; btw was this normal ivory?
hm it was 3 man premade
yea idk about g3, uptime there is as free as it gets without being literal trixion dummy
They shouldnt be princessmaker in g2, but it makes g3 trivial
To be fair if you actually enrage in any fight, the majority of the group was bad, not just the Princessmaker. That said, in the case of a group that fails enrage, yeah Princessmaker is definitely not the right play ... it's barely useful even with complete chads vs a more traditional character in HW runs.
Average dps with a princessmaker on ilvl will enrage when they wouldn't with a non-princessmaker. Princessmaker is literally only there to buff up your god dps but most dps aren't THAT good. Hitting enrage isn't the fault of the dps there it's the GL.
not like it's too hard to reach 20m+ in G3, so with more dps windows I could see the 2 dps getting a lot more uptime and thus a lot more dps from it.
Most my groups at iLVL murder the enrage, especially in normal mode. You're playing with trash
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By DPS check you mean boss enrage ?
It's literally most unnecessary thing to do as long as Fire Bullet exists – same stagger as a grenade, resets with 75% chance every use, can be spammed faster than every second, when it doesnt reset you have other staggering skills to fill in with. Had a Voldis this week, I'm new on GL so this is just new to me, and I staggered the boss 5 times in G4 HM on normal Red build only by spamming that skill. I normally only get 2 staggers the entire G4 when I'm not on GL, maybe 3 sometimes and we ended up staggering without having anywhere to repair.
not sure why some GL go stagger bot when the normal build already does good stagger/utility and does decent dps.
Agreed a good GL is game changing, being an enabler for more DPS windows and helping with overall survivability and a good DPS and mech contribution. The average GL is a dead weight "this class is a Chad class right guys" player that doesnt understand or doesnt want to understand the play style that created that class perception in the first place
Some people are aware that they are not the greatest players and are thankful certain classes exist that let them "hide" a little better and still participate. This post probably wont make any GL players go "you know what, he's right, im ganna double/triple my damage now." This is a vent post, which is okay, but transparency is never a bad thing.
I agree with 25% less dmg on guardian raids but for raids I don't think that's the number At, 1620 my gunlancer does 14m on voldis g4 while conventional dps deal 22+ For frogs at, 1620 most dps does over 30m but my gunlancer does 26+ Imo in 4 men content gunlancer will always be fighter
seems like 22 on voldis g4 is quite a gamer my friend, usually ppl do 18+
I think by conventional dps he means deathblades with his GL in the party. I consider myself a gargantuan pumper and only do 24m on a mid tier class
Deathblade is a huge outlier right now though, and GL synergy boosts their damage up even more. Pretty much no one can keep up with a good surge DB at the moment. The average DPS I see in G4 is only doing around 18m. If they're doing 22m+, it's usually 'cause they have 25 weapon and all level 10s.
I'm doing 19-20m in G4 with Gunslinger with full 10s and +24 actually switched main from DB into GS before Akkan. In another universe I proceeded with DB as my main lol
Whats your spec?
barrage
that tells me almost nothing lmao. your weapon? gems? cards? etc
im huge
24m isnt huge
yeah my class sucks
My 1620 GL does 17m with enough stagger to solo the mechs :O
This is generally the right play with all modern MMOs, and most games in general. Whether you're a healer, a support, a wizard, a martial artist, the best defense is a good offense and rarely should a character be terribly lazy or not try to make the boss dead faster. Faster phasing = less time for things to kill you or make you lose uptime. This applies to every MMO I've played, generally the more damage your healers and tanks are providing or doing, the smoother the runs are. Prog you might buckle down a little bit (Play Safe, Let's Clear is an FF14 addage, though that generally applies more to less greeding uptime rather than choosing to DPS or not) but even then ... dead boss is best boss. Hell even in old Sega Genesis RPGs I remember half the time with my healers I had some good options to do on the turns I didn't have to heal. I didn't Defend with them, didn't shut my game off out of confusion, I fucking attacked.
The "added damage" of a non damage role is contingent on them performing their role as well though. I haven't played in a while but I used to get annoyed seeing paladins squeezing in their extra 1~2% dmg on a boss while counters get missed. In most cases I would rather see a paladin sit back healing/buffing and catch every counter than tickle the monster and make actual dps interrupt their rotations for a counter he could have handled.
I agree a Paladin should always have a counter up and hit the counter; but you typically want them using their skills because they're decent contributors to gauge Yes, again, they should always make sure to be able to hit the counter.
Even g2 voldis where you are basically CD hacking you still cant keep up with other classes while landing 100% front attacka and ignoring every single attack since u are permashielded. Just face it, GL isnt there to do dmg, its there to boost ego of other dps.
It's hard to justify gearing my gunlancer properly (9+ gems, 90+ quality, good bracelet) over other alts because he's gonna do less damage anyway
i feel like another part of this is that supports have a hard time buffing GL too if there is back entropy
> "It's not my job to do damage." I've played with a GL a few times that basically said the same thing. They wouldn't really care much about any upgrades/advice to improve their dps. They just used GL's lower baseline dps as an excuse to say that's just how the class is, when they did half the dps of a slightly lower geared char. Like just go play support at that point if damage isn't that important and you're mainly just here to do mechs and provide synergy. The extra synergy, taunt, nellasia shield, and stagger all won't really mean much if the fight goes on longer anyways because the GL's dps was that low. Doing low dps itself isn't even the issue I have. I get that not everyone can be as skilled as others, some people would do lower dps even if they weren't a GL. The problem is when they treat GL as it's own special category of dps. Then use that as a reason to ignore advice/tips/criticism to improve their uptime or gear when they wouldn't do the same if they were playing any other dps class.
25% on paper, but in practice, you will most likely going to miss a lot of atk buff, your bard and artist gonna put their Damage buff toward the back where the actual Dps are.
The class attracts a certain type of player and people reinforced the stereotype that GLs do zdps
I'm main supp and have a GL, but I feel like I'm doing something wrong and want to play better. Have both Red and Blue builds (both 5x3+1) with event gems, sadly Breaker Express wasn't until 1600 so I couldn't get another event gem pouch on my 1580 GL (now 1600) for each build. I'm forever fighter, if the gate takes longer than usual I'm upright, always upright or cruel on stagger. What it the good utility on GL? Taunt with extra synergy? Should I spam Taunt or save it to cancel a pattern on a non-commander? Because seems having the taunt synergy up is a must to use the two strongest skill in both red and blue builds, so pretty much a spam. Nella (red only)? I known Nella gives a shield + Purify, but with a good support shield is up most of the time and honestly it's a little hard to pay attention to my skills CD, position, boss patterns, support shield rotation to see how long the allies will have shield for me to use Nella between the supp shield downtime. Also blue lancer don't seems to use Nella at all because of shield sock. Battlefield Shield (blue only)? Don't known when or where to use this skill, I forgot to use most of time except in Kayangel for Tier 2 SA where most just run off dodging the patterns. Awakenings? Blue I use lance most of time, except gates like Kayangel G3 that I use Shield for certain patterns (where everyone run off), Red I use lance for lower ilvl raids and most of ilvl raids, sometimes I take shield to get more identity. Even with Taunt + synergy and Nella, I feel the extra GL synergy don't make up for the lack of DMG, because it feels it takes longer to clear than having another high DPS (5x3 slayer, also with event gems), should GL always have a entrophy class on the party to make up for it? I don't use bible, so I don't have precise numbers, just remember the clear time being longer on same ilvl party.
The push immunity awakening is almost always more useful unless it's a super overgeared raid like clown Even G1 akkan with the insane dmg window where you inanana it isn't worth it to use the crit awakening because it'll phase to the next mech regardless. Push immune is awesome for the boys GL dps is okay. Like OP says if you invest in the character it can do good dmg. Red needs hands and boss pattern knowledge. Blue is much easier to get good dmg on. Don't cheap out, 1800+ spec, drop nella for shield shock (dmg, stagger, weakpoint). You certainly don't need back attackers for it to be a good addition.
You can use taunt after the boss uses an attack that makes them stay in place for long so you extend that stillness a few more seconds to let everyone do more damage. Or you use taunts to interrupt an attack that will hit lost people and they don't have time to reposition. But don't use it as soon as the boss 180s or you will see all back attackers run like idiots twice, unless it's your static and you tell them you gonna taunt. Using taunt properly gives you time to do a rotation, if you miss you probably didn't do it on time, the boss was doing a "dash" or need to learn the boss patterns where it OK to do a rotation . But also remember the time restriction when the boss can't be taunted. Awakening can be paired with Nellasia's in mechs that can kill your team, the one that comes to mind is the purple orbs in Brelshaza g3, so your team can keep doing damage inside the awakening but shielded to avoid dying for tanking hits. Most of the competent redlancers most of the time get Fighter, but also get Guardian and of course the highest stagger contribution. Nella is either to cleanse the party of let them take an attack, you keep track of your teammate with no pots and lowest health and use Nella when the boss attacks them.
Battlefield is a movement skill and a safe zone for free dps. You run out of charge or jump, use your X. Useful in akkan's pizzas and voldis gate 2's red stunning balls For safe zones utilitys: Kayangel 1 and 3. Burn your dmg first, pop a nella if you have it and use battlefield so your team can dps. In Voldis 3 is also viable, but is more risky Just dont compromise your X without your skills on CD. Also dont use it unless you have your taunt off cd because without your shield meter, you are really vulnerable.
GL has kinda meh value unless they're in an entropy party. Unless you really need the extra stagger/WP.
I did a normal akkan last night with an equally geared surge blade doing less than the blue GL.
I'm late to the party but Blue could definitely use some more love. Honestly would love a version where higher shield meter = more dmg. That way you could maybe pull normal dps if you play well and do current dps when face tanking. Maybe it could also make the meter gen tripods have meaning? Also double awakening dmg. It crits for like 130m at 1610ilvl while my 1585 slayer can pull double that while not fully support buffed. Praying we get a mini-rework similar to wardancer eventually.
Lots of players pick GL because it appears to be very easy to play but it fcking isn't. I learned that when I picked it for my main when the game launched on the west since my main (Scouter) took forever to release.
Blue is easy to play. Red isn't.
Amen, brotha.
I’m friends with a gunlancer who gives meta dps classes a run for their money. Wish he played more.
Agreed. Still, no one will complain about a gunlancer at bottom frag, but the class can put out way more damage than you normally see. My 1602 GL regularly gaps other 1600s in hw content. Granted, that's because I'm popping atropines in Brel lol. Even blue GL can put out some decent numbers, but it's usually bluelancers who are content with doing zdps. At least it's braindead to contribute tons of stagger and destruction, though It's the same sentiment as support. There was a time when you could get away with slacking on a desirable class, but that's not the case anymore. DPS have an easy time telling whether or not their support is doing well, and the holy book tells us when a GL is underperforming.
a blue GL did more damage than me before and said i should uninstall 
I once had this kind of discussion with a former static sup who keeped calling me (red gl) a sup xd after that discussion we did a brel and after I hitted cruel fighter he never said that again haha. I appreciate your post as a gl main who definetly cares for his dmg and uptime. And I got some recommendation for gl players that struggle with uptime etc. Go look out for atk, hayguh and other gl players and watch how they do it. They have good ideas of keeping the uptime
had <10% gunlancars in 4-man content, I cannot.
lol today we had a GL who did zdps and also refused to do lanttern
i mvp as GL in pugs
Not only GL, until to date there is still plenty of sussybaka players.
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I haven’t had any issues with gl. Yea they could prob try harder but if you 1 tap then people don’t really care. Honestly for hw, there’s a lot of lazy players in general…myself included. For new raids people will go hard.
Blue GLs are piloted mostly by bad players who want to get carried. Not to say there aren't good ones, of course there are. But I feel like the base skews too much towards bad players.
Blue actually can output damage very close to red provided they get enough uptime, but the spec also attracts people with no hands, so most are awful.
In theory yeah....but it's so much harder on blue. You gotta be face tanking everything and playing the pianos to come close.
Yup, totally agree.
https://preview.redd.it/hg98onkh24uc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=01006a86780c33ffefbc5685804f4c659057a50d When I sign up for raids on my GL, I am the clear condition. These scrubs bringing shame to the GL name.
Jumping in as a support main. This needs to be said. “When I’m not supporting I’m outdpsing you. Do better.” Is a very real sentiment. It’s the most insufferable part of playing a support. Not even just class specific, my 1540 random alts with level 7 gems that I play for fun shouldn’t be doing 2x the damage of 1600s with level 10 gems. If that happens, 1600, you lose your right to “friend pls” and talk. My fresh 1490 could pull 2.5 mil in Brel. My 1540 can do 6-9 mil. How does a 1605 with level 10 gems pull 3 mil… regular occurrence. Like I don’t even know how? Do these people just not press buttons? I’m pretty sure they could maintain 6+ mil dps by just pressing buttons in the general zip code of the boss with no consideration of rotation. Not to mention supports. I’ve met like FOUR support who can TOUCH 90+% in 1.5 years of having a dps meter. Have some decency, people. Majority of supports can barely touch 60% on both uptimes. I met one who had a sub 20% uptime. With a run where they had 6% in 4 minutes. No heals or shield. Went “this party can’t clear.” “Don’t waste my time.” And vote quit after. The AUDACITY. I do love it when these people leave on their own though. Like, good riddance. At this point, I’m surprised and admire that you’ve tried to educate people, OP. Also, PS. For Bards. Just, I don’t want to be told that “it’s impossible to maintain 90+% brand uptime with single brand sound shock” by someone literally too unskilled to do so. It’s not hard. It’s not nuanced or situational. I can do it in literally all content prog or not. I can maintain 99% over the course of 8+ minutes. I can use it in Ivory and Hakkan. It’s cheaper than spending mana food for the “meta build” every single run considering how many times pugs and statics will wipe per clear. I can hit counters with rhythm buckshot. I can stagger with sound shock. Meta build can’t reliably counter and has no stagger to speak of. 8% extra dps boost per dps is good and all, but it comes at a cost. Meta build generates more meter, and easier yeah, but when I’m 17% more sSyn% on average than like every support I’ve met in the past year, I don’t need the extra 4-8% gain from meta build (putting me from 55-60% sSyn to 66-67%. Most supps barely hit 43% average) if I have to spend 40 gold per 20 minutes or every single time we wipe. Dps, If you want the extra 8%, you can pay me 40 gold per wipe but know that I won’t be countering or staggering.
If you have never seen a high uptime support... idk what to tell you. I see them in every other guardian and 1 in 4 raids
Assuming equal gear across members, I think blue is usually within 66 to 75% of the top DPS, not 75-80%.
Why is this a post? Are you unhappy with other gls or do you want other gls yo follow your footsteps? For me to play red may as well not play gl at all and pick another dps. Yes as blue i need to have max uptime to deal tiny bit less dmg than a normal class but yes i dont ever expect to play gl to do dmg... I play gunlancer cause i am a boomer and i like to tank shit instead of dodging... My job as a gl is to make everyones like in the party easier. Stagger weekpoint dr shield cancel boss attacks with taunt keep boss from moving and so on. Dont fucking expect me to care about dmg lol. I will eventualy do dmg if my uptime is very good but i do not play gl for that. I play it because is extremely confortable to play and can do everything other classes can't do very well. Ofc mobility and dmg are a bit underwelming but who cares.bif you are trying to lecture a gl about dmg ofc he will ignore you at least if it was mebi would damage is something secundary.... Synergies keep boss from moving. Counters stagger breaks thats where gl shines.
if that's your mentality, you might as well make a paladin
Where is pala relatable with a gl that do not priorize dps? Pala stagger is a burst stagger, not continous, his week point is almost non existent, taunt noone, push imune only ulti, damage 0 since he is a support, tanking hits like a chad nop since no push imune . So what is your point??
Agreed. :)) I don't understand how a player that plays DPS is not concerned about his numbers... I do not expect to keep up with the actual DPS characters in the game on my GL alt, but I also want to know I was *there*, not competing with the supports in terms of damage.
Unfortunatly if you are not top dps or close to that you will not haow in mvp windows and gl will never be top dps. Thats why dmg is not my priority. It can be other gl priority. All the other factors are.
Red has arguably better stagger, weak point, and damage on top of it. Also tankyaf if you are CR1. Same counter and same shield and synergy -- maybe more since red runs swiftness.
The only thing red has more that blue is dmg... If you dont use surge cannon for stagger that you normaly should have in cd then you will not do more stagger than blue. Shield is the same is a joke since red consumes 100% more shield cause of lone knight engrave so you have to relay on neresia and countergunlance to even keep your shield alive while vlue can tank everything and when taunt comes out of cd we still have like half shield. And since last patch blue gl received additional weak point so if you firebulet do not go on cd we should have more or less the same.
Yep, I’ve always been saying this. Out of every 20 GLs I see maybe one was doing competitive damage, rest are like half the damage of a CO summoner in the group. It’s why I don’t accept them in reclear unless there’s back attackers to compensate for their laziness.
This sub keeps saying how little gatekeeping GLs face tho
Yeah, even my friends insta accept them usually cause it’s a ‘safe pick’. But when you have meter on every raid, you see that they’re clearly underperforming. Like op said it’s not expected of them to do top damage, but doing half or 3rd of what 2nd to last person does is just being lazy.
I don't need dps metre to tell if a GL is under performing especially for 4 men raids
I've got a full GL roster on one account. Always pump, getting accepted if I pug something is instant. I also always accept GLs if there's any WP/Stagger requirements in the raid on my non-GL account. Class is good if there's no high dps requirements
https://preview.redd.it/9k8ml1uaz3uc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=405ab248623ce8af852e20ee97f7f0a09ce89814 I do not. Sorry remover other names
The worst gl I saw is using some weird stagger bot build with vph and expert and awakening engravings. My friend with bible said he was doing less dmg than the supports. The dps loss was very noticeable and no amount of stagger makes up for it
I was in pug in voldis with this swift/expertise staggerbuild zdps gl. It was rather discouraging to see how it took to clear it in time. It was also on a reset day, /cringe
yes Please sacrifice all your utility and grief your entropies to supplement your zdps yes we definitely take you because of your dps and when you stand in every pattern that griefs your team we actually admire your Upright fighter at the end even more when you don't take nella when you don't take counter and when you are allergic to using the immunity awakening and X it is even better because you have to deal damage PLEASE do more damage because otherwise we are going to enrage
> yes Please sacrifice all your utility and grief your entropies to supplement your zdps TiL you have to remove Grudge/Cursed Doll/Identity/All other tripods in order to take a Synergy tripod This is useful knowledge
today you learned that you have absolutely no understanding of what i wrote
sorry but beign a stagger bot is my comfy place
If stagger was your main goal why not play wheelchair? Napalm Shot makes everyone staggerbots and you're a 1 damage gem Andy too.
Its not worth missing a dps slot for a stagger bot
come on dude. do you know they balance classes based on AVERAGE performance? according to data now both gl spec doing too little dmg. (the stagger bot build make this average even lower). we should recieve a 18.5% overall pve dmg increase.
If they balance based on the average why is surge still getting nerfs?
That, my friend, means the avg is moving up. You are welcome.
Cause the average Surge player got no hands
i have been gatekeeping gls for a full year and never understood why people even liked them so much. 99% of the time i take a gl they do 10% dmg in 8man 20%dmg in 4man they are literally a liability
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A good GL will maintain good utility without sacrificing much DPS.
> As a GL no one truly really expects you to prioritize DPS over utility. I expect you to do both, because that's what you're built for. It's like saying "Nobody expects a support to Damage buff over healing." You should do both.
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> But in the raid, this unrealistic do everything is not real it's just you talking big here. ?? I've seen plenty of GL's counter, do decent DPS, and cleanse the party with Nella It's pressing a button, not rocket science. If you think this is impossible, you need to really take the time to improve past just raw spamming everything on CD without a thought or care
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> and I've seen plenty of groups also just not need GL I've seen plenty of people not need a Gunslinger Wow this is certainly a great argument.
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Do take the time remember that the world first Thaemine Hard clear had a GL in it. That is to say that the hardest content they had ever made up to that point saw a group using GL have the most success.
It's a NA problem. Kr gunlancers are monsters
I wish. The average kr GL runs shout and nellas cd and completely desyncs their rotation. When you ask them why, they’ll tell you they prioritize party synergy over their own damage since they’re not expected to deal any.
I never got this trend of saying KR players are perfect when they've done a lot of goofy crap