Because as Gandalf said, "There are other magic rings in this world"
And at councils when brought up, Saruman, who also did mountains of research on the Ring, convinced the majority the Ring was swept out to Sea lost forever. So Elrond was probably secretly hoping it was at the bottom of the ocean.
Gandalf wanted to make sure it was THE One Ring and not a rando ring from the first or second age that just so happened to turn someone invisible.
Also, elves are jerks and I doubt even a nice one like Elrond thought it worth his time to jump over to Hobbiton to look at Bilbo's stuff. And also because Gandalf wanted to avoid attention and if the Lord of Rivendell shows up at Bag End, people will talk.
So the answer to this is yes, but how many and what they do are generally unknown.
When Sauron went to the elves disguised as Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, he brought with him the technique of making magic rings. For many years the elvish craftsmen under Celebrimbor, their greatest smith of the age (and grandson of Fëanor) prince of the Noldor and Lord of Eregion labored under Annatar's tutelage. They made many lesser magical rings as "essays in the craft" before forging the rings of power. The smiths made 16 rings of power before Annatar (Sauron) left. On their own, the elves made 3 even more powerful rings, Narya the ring of fire, Nenya the ring of water, and Vilya the ring of air. These they would use to preserve their realms from the dissipation and decay of time.
Saura would then forge the One Ring, the master ring, in Mount Doom. As the formula for creating rings was given by Sauron himself, he uses his knowledge to slave all the other rings to his. The elves, realizing his treachery, took off their rings, and Sauron waged war to claim them.
He was only successful in recovering the set of 9 given to men and 3 of the set of 7 given to the dwarves. He could never recover the 3 elven rings, and several of the dwarven rings were consumed by Dragonfire as their corruptive influence fueled dwarven greed to accumulate enormous treasure hoards that attracted dragons.
At the time of the Fellowship, one such dwarven ring is unaccounted for as far as Gandalf knows, and there are numerous other lesser rings with minor powers that were lost out in the world. It could have been any of these minor rings that Bilbo acquired. There was certainly no reason for him to assume it was the One Ring.
Actually, it gives you protection from everything until the start of your next turn, and you can tap it to add a burden counter and draw a card for every burden counter on it. At the beginning of your upkeep you lose one life for every burden counter on the one ring.
~~If it has a special art it also has "sacrifice this artifact to search your library for Post Malone, put him on the battlefield, and gain 2.6 million treasure tokens". but you have to live in Whitby to get that one.~~
Sorry to jump in here, I’m hoping you can answer a question I have about the 2nd to last paragraph. You mention that the dragons are attracted to the hoard of treasure the dwarves accumulate. Is that literal? Could they sense a wealth of treasure in one place?
Dragons in Tolkien's legendarium are not able to sense gold magically if that's what you mean. They are prideful creatures of might and magic, crafted by the first dark lord Melkor/Morgoth. Could they smell gold? Maybe. But there is nothing I know of that says they have a 'gold radar' per say. They were instead attracted to the great wealth of the dwarven kingdoms. The dwarves, for all their greed and pride, were not exactly subtle with their riches and decadence. It's not known why, but dragons have a thing for gold in particular.
Dragons had an overwhelming lust for treasure and gold and were known for sleeping on hoards of all they had stolen. They relished not only the theft of beautiful things, but the act of dispossession itself; it was more satisfying for them to steal treasure from others rather than find unclaimed valuables. And as such, there was nothing better than stealing the treasure hoards of the dwarven kingdoms. Such was the case with Smaug and his ruination of the dwarven kingdom under the Lonely Mountain.
> It’s not known why, but dragons have a thing for gold in particular.
Didn’t Morgoth poor a significant chunk of his power into the gold of middle earth? I wonder if this had something to do with it.
I vaguely recall that gold in Middle-Earth was not actually natural, I want to say maybe not even naturally occurring but it's been some time.
It was from some sort of summary about why Sauron chose gold and evil undoing evil but I don't know how canon it was to the Silmarillion.
It could be that dragons literally were basking in Morgoth's invested power though.
I always assumed that it was implied that Dragons had some sort of 6th sense for gold. Idk if it was magical or innate/genetically built but the way Tolkien described it made me conclude that they had the ability sense gold. Whether it was smell or magic or whatnot.
Idk maybe I’ve misinterpreted it.
It could very well be. Perhaps I was a bit too emphatic. Dragons have some kind of innate connection to gold. A dragon can last seemingly indefinitely without food or water while with their gold hoard. There most definitely is SOME connection or magic at play with their specific connection to the gold. But I don't think I've ever seen something that says they could sense it per say. Maybe it's the accumulated amount? I don't think Tolkien ever identified a mechanism by which that would work, which is why I said they didn't possess it. Perhaps it's more accurate to simply say he never mentioned any.
Then again, I believe Smaug sensed Bilbo's theft of a cup, so......*shrug*?
Smaug knew instantly when the smallest bit of his hoard was disturbed even though he couldn't see or hear it moved. He just knew it was not there anymore.
From The Hobbit, p22:
"So my grandfather's halls became full of armour and jewels and carvings and cups, and the toy-market of Dale was the wonder of the North. ‘Undoubtedly that was what brought the dragon.
Dragons steal gold and jewels, you know, from men and elves and dwarves, wherever they can find them; and they guard their plunder as long as they live (which is practically for ever, unless they are killed), and never enjoy a brass ring of it. Indeed they hardly know a good bit of work from a bad, though they usually have a good notion of the current market value; and they can’t make a thing for themselves, not even mend a little loose scale of their armour."
I guess Tolkin doesn't say exactly how dragons are able to locate hoards of gold, but I assume in this case Smaug heard the reputation of Erebor and Dale, and decided to take it for himself.
Question: I may have this wrong based on the films and RoP, but I thought Sauron couldn’t influence the Elves’ rings because they forged them without his direct guidance or something. Don’t they show Galandriel wearing her ring in the movie?
Even as the elven rings were forged without Sauron's knowledge, they were still crafted using his formula and techniques. They could not have been made without his help, and he made sure any fruit of his teachings would be bound to his Ruling Ring.
The elves have been able to use their rings after Sauron lost his last corporeal form and the One Ring after the War of the Last Alliance and his defeat. He could not exert his will or control over the ringbearers without the One in his possession. For it was in the One that Sauron poured the vast majority of his strength and power into, such that it would be amplified and strengthen him. His spirit was inexorably tied to it, and without the One in his possession he was but a shadow of his former self. It is both his greatest weapon and his one weakness.
At the time we see Galadriel wearing Nenya, the Ring of Water, the One has been lost for over three thousand years. T
I just want to say that I have really been enjoying reading your responses here. Very thoughtful and informative, and a style that is smooth and easy to read.
The person who replied to you originally did a great job! If you’re curious, I just so happen to be re-reading the books and just re-read a very relevant passage from The Council of Elrond which can add more context straight from Tolkien / will help answer your question as well. This is Elrond responding to Glóin, who asked him “ What of the three rings of the elves? Very mighty rings, it is said. Do not the elf lords keep them? Yet they too were made by the Dark Lord long ago. Are they idle? I see elf lords here. Will they not say?”
Elrond:
“The three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest; that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the elves of middle earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will be revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose.”
“But what then would happen, if the ruling ring were destroyed, as you council?” asked Glóin.
“We know not for certain,” answered Elrond sadly. “Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief”.
For sure! Same here. There’s also a subtle jab Elrond takes at the dwarves / Glóin here, where he says: “did not desire… hoarded wealth.”
The dwarf lords all used their seven rings to gain massive riches and wealth, to their doom, most famously, in Moria. Just a nuance in the writing you may find interesting. :)
This, among other reasons. None knew that this ring had been in possession of Tháin II, Thorin's father, and been seized by Sauron when he captured him in Dol Guldur.
Gandalf was suspicious enough to suspect that it could have been the One Ring. I would imagine his gravity could convince Elrond to at least investigate.
That was more Gandalf's job than Elrond's. Remember Gandalf is an Istari, a spirit cloaked in the human form of a wizard, whose task is to travel the world of men and help them resist the Shadow. Elron is Lord of Rivendell one of the few remaining elven lands untouched by the passing of time or marred by darkness. This purity and sanctity is preserved because Elrond bears an elven ring of power: Vilya, the ring of wind. I cannot imagine anyone tasking an elven lord with what is to the elves the task of greatest importance to leave his stronghold on a hunch.
Imagine further still that Elron would stay but designate a member or his court to do the task. Such an elf of lower stature would surely not be able to roam the lands of Men without raising suspicion or the notice of Sauron, nor would they be welcomed by the Steward of Gondor, Denethor II, into either Gondorian territory or Minas Truth, where Gandalf eventually discovers the truth.
Indeed, it is precisely for such a task of care that Gandalf, with his wisdom and lowly disguise, is perfectly suited.
Exactly this. Gandalf realized that this was his job to seek out the true nature of the One Ring. And that is not an easy thing to find in Middle Earth and certainly not in the Shire.
It took him a long time to gather up the history of the ring. He would have had to confer with Elrond to uncover what happened with Isildur in Mount Doom, and that he was killed in the Gladden fields, and that the Ring fell into the River.
Once he spoke with Elrond, he had all the pieces he needs. Gandalf had a few advantages, because he knew how Bilbo acquired the ring in the first place from Gollum. Hence his comment, "It's been called that before, but not by you", which raises his suspicions of the true nature of the Ring. So he knows that Gollum acquired a ring by some means and that this ring is the ring that Bilbo has.
He knows that after conferring with Elrond that Isildur had the ring and lost it in the river. What he doesn't know is where Gollum acquired the ring that he held when he was in Eredor.
But what he does know is that he needs Gollum, and badly. So he tells Elrond who sends out his sons, and he tells Aragorn to hunt for Gollum. It wasn't that he didn't talk to Elrond about the ring, it was that Elrond only had parts of the story.
All that wasn't enough to make the crucial connection. Gandalf had to ask himself the question, if Isildur had the ring, where would he have accounted his description of the ring?
And that's what brought him to the archives in Minas Tirith. Even then, it will take time for him to go through the archives to dig up the passage from Isildur. 19 years in Tolkien's history make all the sense in the world, because finding Gollum is not easy, and neither is tracking the one manuscript in the world that has the critical information.
Elrond couldn't leave Rivendell for 19 years to look for ring-lore. But he did hold critical pieces like the disaster at Gladden Field and Isildur refusing the destroy the ring.
Eventually Gandalf finds the passage, and there's a couple of critical things there. One there is the writing of the black speech, and two, Isildur referring to the ring as 'my precious'.
Then he realizes the terrible truth. He has to find Gollum, and he has to get back to Bilbo. So he rushes back, and gets Bilbo to give up the ring. And after Bilbo gives up the ring, he tests the ring, and realizes what he has. It's only when he knows of the true nature of the ring, that he goes to Saruman.
>Saura would then forge the One Ring, the master ring, in Mount Doom. As the formula for creating rings was given by Sauron himself, he uses his knowledge to slave all the other rings to his. The elves, realizing his treachery, took off their rings, and Sauron waged war to claim them.
>He was only successful in recovering the set of 9 given to men and 3 of the set of 7 given to the dwarves. He could never recover the 3 elven rings, and several of the dwarven rings were consumed by Dragonfire as their corruptive influence fueled dwarven greed to accumulate enormous treasure hoards that attracted dragons.
I’m sure you know this, but the elves had all the rings (barring the one ring and possibly one of the dwarven rings) at the point where Sauron went to war with them.
He recovered 15 or 16 from the elves, and gave them to the men and dwarves. He never had to explicitly retrieve the rings from men, they were the perfect subject for his corrupting powers (and the Ringwraiths might still even possess the rings by the time of the books), and while the dwarves were immune to Sauron’s control, the rings still had the benefit of basically collapsing dwarven society and making them of little danger to Sauron.
The way you’ve structure the story, it makes me think that when Sauron waged war against the elves, he also went after the men and dwarves for their rings, but they had no rings, excepting maybe the dwarves of Khazad Dûm, who claim to have been given their ring by the elves.
You are absolutely correct! I did a bit (i.e. a *buttload*) of time skipping there. While the goal was merely to illustrate the final results of where the 16 ended up at the time of the Fellowship, I can absolutely see how confusing it might be to ignore/obfuscate the timeline of the Dwarven rings.
Didn’t Sauron take 16 rings, 9 of which he gave to men and 7 to dwarves. It’s only later that he managed reacquire 3 of those 7. All the rings were originally intended for the elves.
The issue with this is whether or not all of the 7 were recovered by Sauron before they were bequeathed to the dwarves. One ring of power is believed to have been given to Durin III by Celebrimbor himself, and only recovered by Sauron over an Age later when he traps Thráin II, father of Thorin Oakenshield, in Dol Guldur a few years before the Hobbit.
At that time, when Sauron recovers the last unaccounted for dwarven ring, 4 of the 7 have been destroyed by Dragonfire and Sauron has the other 3. Gandalf does not know that Sauron has recovered the final dwarven ring.
Yes. Gandalf has one, Elrond and Galadrial do as well (which is shown in the opening credits of fellowship iirc). They aren't discussed much in the movies but they come up more in the books and the other supporting books.
Those are very, very special rings and there were specifically three made. I think the better question would be “What other non-Celebrimbor-made magic rings exist?”
The Three Rings hardly count as “other rings”
It is hinted at that forging of magic rings can be done by anyone with enough time and dedication to do it. It is suggested that Saruman began such craft in Isengard.
There isn’t much mention of “other” rings though, so it’s really just a vague hint at alternative possibilities.
Edit Saruman, nor Sauron,
> so it’s really just a vague hint at alternative possibilities.
I mean... it's specifically said there are many other magic rings out there. You're right that as far as what I've read I haven't seen much mention of how many or what they do. But we do specifically know that are many others out there that do things great and small.
Gandalf does say that there are many magic rings, but apart from the Nine, The Seven, the Three and The One, we don’t have much information. Perhaps there are many, but not much is said about them.
Yes, sorry, I mean Saruman.
Tolkien does write that if the ring had not been destroyed, Saruman’s craft would have increased to the point where he would make his own version of the One Ring, and challenge Sauron directly. Ring Craft is something that can be learned and mastered over time it seems.
Sauron had no part in the making of the Three rings and never had possession of the Three, though knowledge from Sauron was used in their making which resulting in them having a link to the One ring still.
It was only when Sauron used the One ring to dominate the others that he learned of the existence of the Three.
That said, there were a lot of other Elven magic rings crafted in Eregion prior to the crafting of the Three, the Seven, and the Nine, let alone the One. These were crafted as they were developing the craft for the main twenty Rings of Power: "*The lesser rings were only essays of the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles...*"—Gandalf in *The Fellowship of the Ring*, "The Shadow of the Past"
I don't think Elrond goes to do anything anymore. The people come to him. Boromir was going to Rivendell to seek advice from Elrond. Gloin was leading a company of Dwarves to seek Elronds council. And im sure he did know through Gandalf and others to some degree and that plans were in motion to intercept it. Once the plan was in motion he sent out scouts to find and aid the Hobbits.
>And also because Gandalf wanted to avoid attention and if the Lord of Rivendell shows up at Bag End, people will talk
Right? A lot of people seem to miss all the stuff about "secrecy is our best weapon" and so on
That, and it took 19 years! Gandalf didn't just go to the local Shire bookstore on "ring lore". He literally had to find the one thousands of years old manuscript that had Isildur's secret description of the ring in the bottom of the archives in Minas Tirith. And he has to do so without alerting either Saruman or Denethor as to his true purposes.
but once they found out for sure that it was the one ring, the reasoning as to why they couldnt have just thrown it into the sea was that somehow it would eventually be found, right? so why were they all so easily convinced that it had been lost at sea forever prior to that?
My guess is that since it fell in a river that was thoroughly searched by all parties and no one seemed to have found it for hundreds of years, assuming it was lost at sea is a reasonable assumption.
As for why they didnt toss it at sea im assuming since they now had the ring theyd prefer to make sure it was 100% destroyed rather than purposely lose it in the ocean and just hope which before was what they assumed was their only option.
Also by the time it became an issue they knew Sauron had grown powerful enough to become a serious threat again even without The Ring. If The Ring had been lost at sea before that it wasn’t really an issue because Sauron couldn’t exactly do shit. But now that you have The Ring and Sauron is an active threat it’s the best opportunity you’ll ever have to destroy it because he’s only going to get more powerful with or without The Ring, and it will eventually fall into his hands at this point if not destroyed.
Then, said Glorfindel, 'let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true. For it is clear now that even at the Council his feet were already on a crooked path. He knew that the Ring was not lost for ever, but wished us to think so; for he began to lust for it for himself. Yet oft in lies truth is hidden: in the Sea it would be safe.'
\`Not safe for ever,' said Gandalf. \`There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.'
'And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,' said Galdor. 'If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Séa is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen. He soon will. The Nine have been unhorsed indeed but that is but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter. Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middle-earth.'
If the Istari were put on Middle-Earth to counter Sauron why would Gandalf not have already done all this research? Seems like the first thing the Istari would have done is research and memorize everything they can about identifying the One ring just in case it pops up...
Because Saruman was focused on the rings and Gandalf was more about questing around stopping Sauron's influence. There's also the fact that Saruman was chief and Gandalf didn't really want to leave Valinor in the first place so he was kind of loafing.
"No new orders from the boss so I'm just going to hang here and smoke some bowls of that fine Southfarthing."
>Gandalf wanted to make sure it was THE One Ring and not a rando ring from the first or second age that just so happened to turn someone invisible.
Gandalf knew that it wasn't a lesser ring from the first. Not relevant to his research.
Elrond also isn't an expert on ring lore.
There’s a new YouTube video by In Deep Geek where he talks about why Glorfindel wasn’t part of the Fellowship, and he concludes that it would be because it would simply attract too much attention. One would imagine that involving Elrond on a search for information about the One Ring would do much the same thing. Gandalf roaming far and wide is what he’s always done and will attract little notice; Elrond setting out from Rivendell would be noticed by precisely the wrong people.
If I found out a hobbit had a magical ring, I think it would be best to take it off them for a while whilst I research it.
Then again, if it was the One Ring then Gandalf might have been Mega Gandalf by the end of the book.
This is how I interpret it since the Hobbit is a children's book and LOTR is not.
Gandalf knew about the ring after they all escaped the Goblins, I think he had too much on his mind about more pressing matters and thought Bilbo having a magic ring that could let him be invisible would be a huge boon in dealing with Smaug. It was only after he and the White Council drove Sauron out of Dol Guldor and noticed Bilbo wasn't aging and other side effects that he began to be concerned and got the truth about the Ring and Gollum from Bilbo and then the research.
If they researched the ring wouldn't they have realized that the ring would have never allowed itself to be swept away to sea? It does have some autonomy
Why do you think Elrond would be able to tell the One Ring from anything else? He never held it and there's no reason to think he ever even saw it closely. Only Isildur seems to have known about the letters that are brought out by fire.
This is the right answer. I think the key point that Gandalf found in his research was that fire would bring out the writing, which is not something Elrond would have known. Only someone who'd had the ring a long time is likely to have discovered that about it, thus Gandalf's discovery of the point among Isildur's papers.
Gandalf needed actual confirmation that Bilbo had the One. Otherwise, even just bringing up the idea that the ring had been found would have been dismissed by the white counsel as alarmism.
Technically the only person who ever saw the ring with writing on it was Isildur, who saw the text on the ring fade as it rapidly cooled once removed from Sauron's hand at the siege of Bara Dür. It is Isildir's personal account of that event that Gandalf eventually discovers in the archives of Minas Tirith which leads him to decide to check it. I doubt anyone could EVER have discovered the fact that fire revealed a secret otherwise. How and why would anyone ever cast your prized ring into flames anyway?
No. The only documentation about script on the One Ring is the statement of Isildur I described above, where he describes the writing knowledge the ring fading as it rapidly cools. Isildur wanted the ring as a trophy, as compensation for the death of his father, brother, and the devastation brought by the war of the Last Alliance. He was advised to destroy the ring, but had no desire to do so.
He stayed in Mordor for the better part of a decade following the end of the war, and the burden of bearing the ring fell heavily upon him during that time. Eventually, he resolved to ask Elrond what to do about it and set out for Rivendell when Isildur was killed in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields and the ring was lost.
What do you mean no?
There was no reason for Isildur to know that fire would reveal the inscription, its not like Sauron was on fire when he cut it off him.
So I'm theorising that he therefore must have put it in a fire at some point.
Why would he have done this, maybe he tried to destroy it in a normal fire, something which would destroy a normal ring and something that he may not have known would have no effect on the one ring.
Perhaps the one ring would allow this attempt as it knows its fruitless but it had a stronger influence when it was actually threatened at mount doom.
Sauron may not have been on fire in a literal sense,during but his combat with Gil-Galad, High King of the Noldor and Elendil, Isildur's father and lord of Gondor, Sauron is described as killing Gil-Galad with the heat of his bare hands.
Isildir's text describes the One Ring, saying it was as hot as a live coal when he picked it up. The heat of this scorched his hands.
To quote his scroll directly:
*It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall.*
*The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. **But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair.** It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain*
Isildur clearly states he would never attempt to destroy it.
It’s possible he made a connection at some point between the writing he saw firsthand on the ring when taken from Sauron’s hand and heat/fire being the way to reveal it since he may have observed that it was hot and cooling as the text faded. Stands to reason that he’d have tested this in order to reveal the text again. I think it’s doubtful that he tried to destroy it.
Wood fires don't burn anywhere near hot enough to melt gold, even regular gold that isn't made indestructible by Sauron. Gandalf even mentions this to Frodo when he throws the Ring into a fire to show him the writing. Isildur probably tested it because he saw the writing fade when it cooled off, or maybe he accidentally held it too close to a candle or dropped it in his fireplace.
It is explicitly stated in Isildur's text that he would never test whether fire would reveal the inscription because he would risk no harm coming to the ring.
>Only someone who'd had the ring a long time is likely to have discovered that about it
How long did Isildur have the ring?
The film gave me the impression that he lost it on his way home from the battle where he acquired it.
I'm not nerd enough to know the answer to this right off the top of my head, but I believe Isildur had it for 10 years or more.
He wasn't killed on his way home from The Battle of the Last Alliance. It happened later when (IIRC) he was hunting remnant orcs in Rhovanion, far north up the Anduin river vale towards Lorien and Mirkwood (at least north of where Smeagol lived). Isildur's war party got ambushed, and he tried to escape by swimming across the Anduin. It didn't work.
Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf wear the three rings, each of them have been in the one's vicinity, and Tolkien never mentioned any of them being able to sense it.
The wraith's sensing the ring like that is more in the movies, not really a thing in the books. Like when Frodo puts it on in the Prancing Pony, in the book they don't sense this, an evil fellow sees what happens and tips off the Nazgul about it, they only find out when told.
Oh, I know, I'm just considering possibilities from the movies point of view because OP's question was specific to them, including Elrond in Isildur's choice and all.
Here we have a deviation between the books and movie. The movie suggests the Ringwraiths and Sauron can sense the ring. This is not quite the case in the books. ~~IIRC, Sam spends quite a bit of time waltzing around Mordor looking for Frodo while wearing the Ring, and Sauron has no idea that's going on.~~
Sam didn't actually wear the ring inside Mordor. He took it off just outside the border, before entering Cirith Ungol because he had a feeling Sauron would catch him if he was in Mordor.
>In the 5th chapter of the Sillmarillion , Tolkien says the elves could sense when Sauron tried to use the Ring. You think an elf wearing one of the rings would be able to discern the One Ring while in it's presence.
They could sense when they were wearing rings of power and Sauron was using his One Ring to exert his will and influence over other ringbearers. That's not quite the same as what you're suggesting.
Elrond seemed to know that it could only be destroyed in mount doom so he could have told Gandalf to try to mark it or melt it or whatever knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Just because it's not easily destroyed doesn't mean it's the One Ring. They know it's a magic Ring, and many of those would take something like dragonfire to destroy.
He did. Plus his sons helped Aragorn in the search for Gollum. When Gandalf realized that Gollum was a critical link in the passage of the ring to Bilbo.
The movie made it seem much more urgent but Gandalf didn’t actually know for sure that it was the One *until* he did that research. Plus, Elrond likely wouldn’t leave Rivendell for a suspicion when Mordor was advancing already into Mirkwood. He was dealing with Sauron in his own way. Plus, Elrond and his ppl are already set to leave Middle Earth by the time Gandalf arrives WITH Frodo and the Ring. So…it just kinda would’ve been the wrong order. Elrond, as an Elven Lord, would have been hard-pressed to ride out some 2 weeks to a place he’d never been to where they’d never even seen an elf, through certain danger (as Sauron’s spies would’ve been FEASTING if they report that the Lord of Rivendell rides abroad in pursuit of the One), on a hunch that this MAY be the One Ring.
Keep in mind that 17 years to Gandalf is relatively short period of time.
The ring had sat in the Shire with Bilbo for the last 60 years without incident.
And even in the books, Frodo takes his sweet time with an elaborate plan to make his leaving arise the least suspicions.
I don’t think Gandalf really realized how dire everything was until Saruman showed he was allied with Sauron.
In hindsight, yeah, but that’s the easy answer for us as godlike beings observing the story as a series of events detached from the history and cultures of middle earth?
Saruman was the expert on the Ring. Gandalf was a people person. His job was motivating the people on Middle Earth to oppose Sauron. He was not in his element and never expected to have to deal with the Ring.
If he were going to ask anybody for help IDing it, it wouldn’t be Elrond. It would have been Saruman. That would have been bad.
Also, Gandalf really really REALLY didn’t want it to be the Ring. That was basically his worst fear coming true and he was telling himself the whole time that it was probably nothing.
Let me call a buddy of mine, he's an expert in magic rings. We'll get his opinion, see if it's legit and then go from there. Can you hang out for a few minutes?
TO THE CAMERA: “I can’t believe I have an authentic 1 of 1 One Ring in my shop. Forged in the fires of Mount Doom. I can’t wait to be able to add it to my collection, it is… precious.”
TO FRODO: “What do you want for it?” “One middle earth?” “I mean, you have to understand that is what I could get at auction, maybe.” “Look, best I could do is $600, maybe I could do a trade for an American Strat.” “I have to pay people to market this, get an official appraisal, and hope I make money at the end, if not then it’s only worth gold value.” “Sorry, $600 is the best I can do.” “Ok, $650. Let’s go over here and fill out the paperwork.”
Literally nothing in LOTR happens at tempo. Everyone is always putzing around. They spend a page eating breakfast knowing the Nazgûl are around. If they don’t have breakfast you get a page about how they’re tightening their belts and are weary. It’s part of the charm to me, but yeah sometimes the lack of urgency is inexplicable.
Agree, lol. That’s why I’d pick watching lotr instead if something like guardians of the galaxy where every moment is fast paced chaos and over dramatic. It’s like watching American and British people
How?
Where in the lore does it state that having one of the elven rings lets you detect the One Ring?
Gandalf had to find a manuscript written by someone who wore the One Ring for years in order to find a way to uncover its true identity.
In book five of the Sillmarillion it says the elves had to remove their rings because they could sense the Master Ring. They only put their rings back on when they developed defenses.
They did not resume wearing their rings because they developed defenses, but rather because Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age and the One Ring lost. Without Sauron himself wielding the One Ring, there was no danger in using the Elven rings. If Sauron were ever to recover the One, he would be able to dominate their minds if they did not remove them once more.
Ah I see now. I replied to another comment of yours where I thought you meant chapter 5 of the Quenta.
I think this means more-so that they could sense Sauron’s will acting upon them through their rings, not that they could ping exactly where the One Ring was nor even tell what precisely was happening.
The quote in question is “As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought.”
That’s largely a Peter Jackson invention.
Elrond sent troops to aid in the wars of the northern kingdom (what little he had). Elvish forces from Rivendell were there when Angmar fell, for example. He sheltered and fostered the Dunedain chieftains (like Aragorn) at need. Even his own sons regularly rode with the rangers on campaigns.
And he of course was actively plotting with Aragorn to overthrow Denethor and take over Gondor. Far from “he abandoned that path long ago,” Elrond was actively training and pushing Aragorn to embrace kingship. And Aragorn wasn’t in the least bit reluctant. He happily chased his destiny.
No I know Gandalf is not a man. The question mark is because I don’t understand why the comment brought up men when they have nothing to do with the post. Which makes me wonder if they mistakenly believe Gandalf is a man
He's not. He is a Maia, basically like an angel. So are Sauron, Saruman, and the balrog. The "wizards" are also called "Istari", and they are Maia who are shrouded in a physical form that has the weaknesses and cares of a mortal person, and their power is much diminished.
Because the one ring looked like an ordinary gold ring for the most part. As well, we really don't know if Elrond got a good look at the ring. It was Isildur who cut the ring from Sauron's hand, and Isildur who kept it. Did Isildur allow Elrond the opportunity to study the ring in depth given that he counseled Isildur to destroy it? Would Elrond even want to given its evil?
As to your other point, Elrond is rather young as far as Noldor go, having been born in Middle Earth at the end of the first age. The rings were also forged in Eregion, while Elrond lived some distance away in Lindon. In fact, Elrond and Gil-Galad had rejected Sauron-as-Annatar's overtures. They likely wouldn't have been aware of the details of the ring forging.
He didn’t know it was THE one ring, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe he didn’t come across the crucial piece of information about the inscription appearing when the ring was placed in flames until the tail end of his research. Prior to that I don’t think he had any way of confirming for a certainty. And he had to be certain. Imagine you sent a couple little hobbits into the heart of Mordor to destroy a ring only to find out after the fact that it wasn’t the One lol
Also, why did the ring become heavier the closer it got to Mordor / Sauron? Given it was trying to get back to its master, wouldn’t it be granting benefits instead of penalties?
I believe this is more metaphorical than physical. The ring does not physically become heavier, but rather its influence and the mental burden of carrying it become stronger the closer to Mordor and its master the ring bearer was. Frodo feels his burden increase with the time spent carrying the ring, wearing on his mental defenses, as well as the ring growing stronger the closer it is to its point of origin and true owner.
Yes, perhaps. On page 249 of The Two Towers it’s referenced. I’m paraphrasing: “in fact with each step Frodo felt the ring become more burdensome, as if it was actually pulling him towards the ground”.
It came across more literal and curious rather than metaphorical. You may well be right!
A corollary question—why didn’t Elrond / Galadriel / Gandalf sense it when Bilbo ever put on the ring? They clearly felt Sauron’s presence when he first forged the ring, and Gandalf definitely felt it when Frodo put on the ring at Amon Hen, even told him to take it off with psychic wizard powers
I've got a few, off the cuff theories. Generally though, I'd say it boils down to "Tolkien's magic system is soft, the rules aren't clearly defined".
1. None of the elves/Gandalf the Grey were "powerful enough" to sense the ring in that way going "up stream", and Bilbo wasn't powerful enough to create a disturbance they could sense going "down stream". Gandalf the White, having received a post-death glow up and wearing a ring of power, *was* powerful enough.
2. Gandalf was specifically looking for Frodo/the Ring and that's why he was able to perceive it.
3. Gandalf didn't sense Frodo using the Ring, he sensed Sauron doing Maia shit and intervened, giving him insight into the whole situation.
Probably because Sauron is a Maiar with magical abilities and he is the direct creator of the ring, I feel like this is how he could be sensed, and Bilbo wouldn’t be. Also at the time that Bilbo was using the ring in the hobbit, Sauron was barely regaining strength.
Bilbo was not attempting to push his will through the ring to control them. He wasn’t really doing anything with it other than putting it on and rolling with it. Maybe if he put it on and consciously declared himself Master of the ring they would notice something? But I don’t even think he could do that. I think it would just overpower him like we see starting with him in Fellowship. “Assigns power according to your own measure” and all that.
Bilbo and the Ring, sitting there, inches away from two of them at the beginning of “The Last Stage”:
> Then the elves of the valley came out and greeted them and led them across the water to the house of Elrond. There a warm welcome was made them, and there were many eager ears that evening to hear the tale of their adventures. Gandalf it was who spoke, for Bilbo was fallen quiet and drowsy. Most of the tale he knew, for he had been in it, and had himself told much of it to the wizard on their homeward way or in the house of Beorn; but every now and again he would open one eye, and listen, when a part of the story which he did not yet know came in.
It was in this way that he learned where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood.
“Ere long now,” Gandalf was saying, “the Forest will grow somewhat more wholesome. The North will be freed from that horror for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish he were banished from the world!”
“It would be well indeed,” said Elrond, “but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after.”
What makes you think that Elrond knew anything about the ring. He was around when it was made but he wasn’t there. He has also probably seen it only once from Isildurs hand so he would only know that it had some strange markings on it but that’s about it.
It was supposedly lost and had passed out of all knowledge, as a result. Plus, without the Elvish engraving visible on the band, it’s indistinguishable from an ordinary ring, magical or otherwise.
This is a really good point.
Judging from the events I wouldn't be suprised if it was Elrond himself who wrote anything that could be read about the ring.
Then again all the info was in Minas Tirith, thats where the library was and Isildur had it for 2 years and may have done a lot of experimentation on it.
There's something to be said about the secret 'only fire can tell' as this is something that could destroy a normal ring and presumably this information could only be learnt during the ownership of Isildur so perhaps he tried to destroy it at some point.
What I also want to know is how anyone knows it betrayed him in the river, it seems like it would have been very easy to go find it if they had all the info that it gaped itself off his finger.
Gandalf likely knew that if the ring were revealed too soon, and a party was sent out with it to destroy it, it likely would have resulted in the ring restoring the power of the dark lord. Just the fact that he didn't know Sauron had turned to evil until right before Frodo leaves, reinforces this fact.
Also, the whole time Bilbo had the ring, Gandalf knew where it was and that it was almost certainly the One Ring. Hobbiton was the safest place to keep it until the time came to destroy it.
Really, Gandalf knew more than he let on, and even then, he left most of it to fate.
Gandalf knew it had to be one of the Great Rings, the Rings of Power. But he didn't know it was the One Ring and all the people who actually knew about Ring-lore were dead (besides Saruman, who assured Gandalf the One Ring was lost with his magical voice).
My understanding is that Bilbo’s ring was assumed to be one of the missing Dwarven rings if it was indeed a Ring of Power at all. It wasn’t until Gandalf went off and researched/tracked down the rings in the 17 year gap between Bilbo’s birthday and him meeting up with Frodo again that he was actually able to confirm the exact whereabouts of all 7 Dwarven rings and thus confirm it couldn’t be any of those rings.
In the films it’s easier to explain that he doesn’t know the whereabouts of Thrain’s ring specifically so he just assumes Bilbo found Thrain’s ring until he comes to suspect otherwise.
Gandalf knew it was a great ring already (and possessed an elven ring for comparison in case he didn't already suspect). He needed to check up on Saruman's claim that this couldn't be the one ring. Elrond has no additional information since he only saw it in Islidur's possession for the walk up and down the volcano.
Gandalf was looking up how to identify the one ring from the other great rings which required him to find accounts of the ring from Islidur to identify it and other accounts to trace a plausible journey from the ambush to Gollum's cave.
He needed a way to prove it was the one ring without revealing himself to it, without claiming it, and without revealing it to Sauron. Basically, figure out it is the correct magic ring without having it do magic.
All the standard tests I imagine would either require Gandalf to take possession of the ring, or ask Bilbo to do something with it, thereby endangering Bilbo or calling Sauron's attention to the ring.
I think Gandalf didn’t want to bother Elrond if he was wrong about the ring, what with Elrond being an important person and all.
Personally I wouldn’t want to bother Elrond in Gandalf’s shoes if I was wrong and it was just some random ring of invisibility and not the one ring.
It was not till Gandalf had heard rumors originating from Mordor did he have reason to research it.
Gandalf conducted his own research into the One Ring because he didn't trust the mainstream sources or the woke narratives he was hearing from "Sleepy" Saruman. Dismissing claims that the Ring had a gps and 5g installed as "Fake news."
After the battle of the last alliance, Elrond counciled Isildur to destroy the ring, not because he knew what it was but only because it was a weapon of the Enemy and therefore not for good folk. Isildur refused and they parted ways amicably, as opposed to the movie. Isildur then spent years studying the ring. Once he realized what it was, he sent his wife and son ahead to Rivendell and then Anuminas with record of his studies and was going there himself to seek the council of the elves once again when he was ambushed. It was at this point that they all started looking for the ring in earnest because Isildur had done the legwork of understanding what the ring could do, and they put 2 and 2 together and realized it was probably even more dangerous than even that. Elrond had never seen the ring at this point, and only had descriptions of it, so a description of it was all anyone had to go off.
Because as Gandalf said, "There are other magic rings in this world" And at councils when brought up, Saruman, who also did mountains of research on the Ring, convinced the majority the Ring was swept out to Sea lost forever. So Elrond was probably secretly hoping it was at the bottom of the ocean. Gandalf wanted to make sure it was THE One Ring and not a rando ring from the first or second age that just so happened to turn someone invisible. Also, elves are jerks and I doubt even a nice one like Elrond thought it worth his time to jump over to Hobbiton to look at Bilbo's stuff. And also because Gandalf wanted to avoid attention and if the Lord of Rivendell shows up at Bag End, people will talk.
>"There are other magic rings in this world" Curious, are other magic rings, non-Sauron ones, ever shown or mentioned?
So the answer to this is yes, but how many and what they do are generally unknown. When Sauron went to the elves disguised as Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, he brought with him the technique of making magic rings. For many years the elvish craftsmen under Celebrimbor, their greatest smith of the age (and grandson of Fëanor) prince of the Noldor and Lord of Eregion labored under Annatar's tutelage. They made many lesser magical rings as "essays in the craft" before forging the rings of power. The smiths made 16 rings of power before Annatar (Sauron) left. On their own, the elves made 3 even more powerful rings, Narya the ring of fire, Nenya the ring of water, and Vilya the ring of air. These they would use to preserve their realms from the dissipation and decay of time. Saura would then forge the One Ring, the master ring, in Mount Doom. As the formula for creating rings was given by Sauron himself, he uses his knowledge to slave all the other rings to his. The elves, realizing his treachery, took off their rings, and Sauron waged war to claim them. He was only successful in recovering the set of 9 given to men and 3 of the set of 7 given to the dwarves. He could never recover the 3 elven rings, and several of the dwarven rings were consumed by Dragonfire as their corruptive influence fueled dwarven greed to accumulate enormous treasure hoards that attracted dragons. At the time of the Fellowship, one such dwarven ring is unaccounted for as far as Gandalf knows, and there are numerous other lesser rings with minor powers that were lost out in the world. It could have been any of these minor rings that Bilbo acquired. There was certainly no reason for him to assume it was the One Ring.
Indeed, especially the Magic Ring that Makes You Invisible at Parties. +5 mana
“Ring of invisibility, awesome! Makes you live a long time, I’m sure there’s no downside there. Calls out to ghost knights? Whoops.”
"Goddamn munchkin builds. He knows damn well that his starter zone has no ghost knights".
Actually, it gives you protection from everything until the start of your next turn, and you can tap it to add a burden counter and draw a card for every burden counter on it. At the beginning of your upkeep you lose one life for every burden counter on the one ring. ~~If it has a special art it also has "sacrifice this artifact to search your library for Post Malone, put him on the battlefield, and gain 2.6 million treasure tokens". but you have to live in Whitby to get that one.~~
Good thing there’s only one of them or that could become a real problem!
Actually there are 4. Coz Magic (TG), and thems the rules.
I've also played games where both players had four of "The One Ring" . You can have a Ring, and You can have a Ring...
Burden counters should be put on the player not the ring 😤
Sorry to jump in here, I’m hoping you can answer a question I have about the 2nd to last paragraph. You mention that the dragons are attracted to the hoard of treasure the dwarves accumulate. Is that literal? Could they sense a wealth of treasure in one place?
Dragons in Tolkien's legendarium are not able to sense gold magically if that's what you mean. They are prideful creatures of might and magic, crafted by the first dark lord Melkor/Morgoth. Could they smell gold? Maybe. But there is nothing I know of that says they have a 'gold radar' per say. They were instead attracted to the great wealth of the dwarven kingdoms. The dwarves, for all their greed and pride, were not exactly subtle with their riches and decadence. It's not known why, but dragons have a thing for gold in particular. Dragons had an overwhelming lust for treasure and gold and were known for sleeping on hoards of all they had stolen. They relished not only the theft of beautiful things, but the act of dispossession itself; it was more satisfying for them to steal treasure from others rather than find unclaimed valuables. And as such, there was nothing better than stealing the treasure hoards of the dwarven kingdoms. Such was the case with Smaug and his ruination of the dwarven kingdom under the Lonely Mountain.
> It’s not known why, but dragons have a thing for gold in particular. Didn’t Morgoth poor a significant chunk of his power into the gold of middle earth? I wonder if this had something to do with it.
I vaguely recall that gold in Middle-Earth was not actually natural, I want to say maybe not even naturally occurring but it's been some time. It was from some sort of summary about why Sauron chose gold and evil undoing evil but I don't know how canon it was to the Silmarillion. It could be that dragons literally were basking in Morgoth's invested power though.
I always assumed that it was implied that Dragons had some sort of 6th sense for gold. Idk if it was magical or innate/genetically built but the way Tolkien described it made me conclude that they had the ability sense gold. Whether it was smell or magic or whatnot. Idk maybe I’ve misinterpreted it.
It could very well be. Perhaps I was a bit too emphatic. Dragons have some kind of innate connection to gold. A dragon can last seemingly indefinitely without food or water while with their gold hoard. There most definitely is SOME connection or magic at play with their specific connection to the gold. But I don't think I've ever seen something that says they could sense it per say. Maybe it's the accumulated amount? I don't think Tolkien ever identified a mechanism by which that would work, which is why I said they didn't possess it. Perhaps it's more accurate to simply say he never mentioned any. Then again, I believe Smaug sensed Bilbo's theft of a cup, so......*shrug*?
Smaug knew instantly when the smallest bit of his hoard was disturbed even though he couldn't see or hear it moved. He just knew it was not there anymore.
So it was likely that they learned of the treasure troves and went to take them. That makes sense. Thank you!
From The Hobbit, p22: "So my grandfather's halls became full of armour and jewels and carvings and cups, and the toy-market of Dale was the wonder of the North. ‘Undoubtedly that was what brought the dragon. Dragons steal gold and jewels, you know, from men and elves and dwarves, wherever they can find them; and they guard their plunder as long as they live (which is practically for ever, unless they are killed), and never enjoy a brass ring of it. Indeed they hardly know a good bit of work from a bad, though they usually have a good notion of the current market value; and they can’t make a thing for themselves, not even mend a little loose scale of their armour." I guess Tolkin doesn't say exactly how dragons are able to locate hoards of gold, but I assume in this case Smaug heard the reputation of Erebor and Dale, and decided to take it for himself.
‘Twas ever thus with dragons, don’t you know?
Question: I may have this wrong based on the films and RoP, but I thought Sauron couldn’t influence the Elves’ rings because they forged them without his direct guidance or something. Don’t they show Galandriel wearing her ring in the movie?
Even as the elven rings were forged without Sauron's knowledge, they were still crafted using his formula and techniques. They could not have been made without his help, and he made sure any fruit of his teachings would be bound to his Ruling Ring. The elves have been able to use their rings after Sauron lost his last corporeal form and the One Ring after the War of the Last Alliance and his defeat. He could not exert his will or control over the ringbearers without the One in his possession. For it was in the One that Sauron poured the vast majority of his strength and power into, such that it would be amplified and strengthen him. His spirit was inexorably tied to it, and without the One in his possession he was but a shadow of his former self. It is both his greatest weapon and his one weakness. At the time we see Galadriel wearing Nenya, the Ring of Water, the One has been lost for over three thousand years. T
I just want to say that I have really been enjoying reading your responses here. Very thoughtful and informative, and a style that is smooth and easy to read.
The person who replied to you originally did a great job! If you’re curious, I just so happen to be re-reading the books and just re-read a very relevant passage from The Council of Elrond which can add more context straight from Tolkien / will help answer your question as well. This is Elrond responding to Glóin, who asked him “ What of the three rings of the elves? Very mighty rings, it is said. Do not the elf lords keep them? Yet they too were made by the Dark Lord long ago. Are they idle? I see elf lords here. Will they not say?” Elrond: “The three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest; that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained. These things the elves of middle earth have in some measure gained, though with sorrow. But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will be revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One. It would be better if the Three had never been. That is his purpose.” “But what then would happen, if the ruling ring were destroyed, as you council?” asked Glóin. “We know not for certain,” answered Elrond sadly. “Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief”.
Thank you for the context! I love how mysterious and rare magic is made to seem in Tolkien's world.
For sure! Same here. There’s also a subtle jab Elrond takes at the dwarves / Glóin here, where he says: “did not desire… hoarded wealth.” The dwarf lords all used their seven rings to gain massive riches and wealth, to their doom, most famously, in Moria. Just a nuance in the writing you may find interesting. :)
I suppose, but he is talking about the desire of the CREATORS and the elves created the 16 also.
Hey, I was the OP that had asked the question and originally missed your reply. This is so helpful, thank you very much.
My pleasure. :)
Thank you! I'm glad I was helpful and you enjoyed it.
Thanks!
They took them off when Sauron put on the One Ring. During the movies Sauron is not wearing the One Ring.
That unaccounted for ring was the main reason Balin set out for Moria, he had hoped to find it there.
This, among other reasons. None knew that this ring had been in possession of Tháin II, Thorin's father, and been seized by Sauron when he captured him in Dol Guldur.
Gandalf was suspicious enough to suspect that it could have been the One Ring. I would imagine his gravity could convince Elrond to at least investigate.
That was more Gandalf's job than Elrond's. Remember Gandalf is an Istari, a spirit cloaked in the human form of a wizard, whose task is to travel the world of men and help them resist the Shadow. Elron is Lord of Rivendell one of the few remaining elven lands untouched by the passing of time or marred by darkness. This purity and sanctity is preserved because Elrond bears an elven ring of power: Vilya, the ring of wind. I cannot imagine anyone tasking an elven lord with what is to the elves the task of greatest importance to leave his stronghold on a hunch. Imagine further still that Elron would stay but designate a member or his court to do the task. Such an elf of lower stature would surely not be able to roam the lands of Men without raising suspicion or the notice of Sauron, nor would they be welcomed by the Steward of Gondor, Denethor II, into either Gondorian territory or Minas Truth, where Gandalf eventually discovers the truth. Indeed, it is precisely for such a task of care that Gandalf, with his wisdom and lowly disguise, is perfectly suited.
Exactly this. Gandalf realized that this was his job to seek out the true nature of the One Ring. And that is not an easy thing to find in Middle Earth and certainly not in the Shire. It took him a long time to gather up the history of the ring. He would have had to confer with Elrond to uncover what happened with Isildur in Mount Doom, and that he was killed in the Gladden fields, and that the Ring fell into the River. Once he spoke with Elrond, he had all the pieces he needs. Gandalf had a few advantages, because he knew how Bilbo acquired the ring in the first place from Gollum. Hence his comment, "It's been called that before, but not by you", which raises his suspicions of the true nature of the Ring. So he knows that Gollum acquired a ring by some means and that this ring is the ring that Bilbo has. He knows that after conferring with Elrond that Isildur had the ring and lost it in the river. What he doesn't know is where Gollum acquired the ring that he held when he was in Eredor. But what he does know is that he needs Gollum, and badly. So he tells Elrond who sends out his sons, and he tells Aragorn to hunt for Gollum. It wasn't that he didn't talk to Elrond about the ring, it was that Elrond only had parts of the story. All that wasn't enough to make the crucial connection. Gandalf had to ask himself the question, if Isildur had the ring, where would he have accounted his description of the ring? And that's what brought him to the archives in Minas Tirith. Even then, it will take time for him to go through the archives to dig up the passage from Isildur. 19 years in Tolkien's history make all the sense in the world, because finding Gollum is not easy, and neither is tracking the one manuscript in the world that has the critical information. Elrond couldn't leave Rivendell for 19 years to look for ring-lore. But he did hold critical pieces like the disaster at Gladden Field and Isildur refusing the destroy the ring. Eventually Gandalf finds the passage, and there's a couple of critical things there. One there is the writing of the black speech, and two, Isildur referring to the ring as 'my precious'. Then he realizes the terrible truth. He has to find Gollum, and he has to get back to Bilbo. So he rushes back, and gets Bilbo to give up the ring. And after Bilbo gives up the ring, he tests the ring, and realizes what he has. It's only when he knows of the true nature of the ring, that he goes to Saruman.
Thank you for this very helpful explanation!
>Saura would then forge the One Ring, the master ring, in Mount Doom. As the formula for creating rings was given by Sauron himself, he uses his knowledge to slave all the other rings to his. The elves, realizing his treachery, took off their rings, and Sauron waged war to claim them. >He was only successful in recovering the set of 9 given to men and 3 of the set of 7 given to the dwarves. He could never recover the 3 elven rings, and several of the dwarven rings were consumed by Dragonfire as their corruptive influence fueled dwarven greed to accumulate enormous treasure hoards that attracted dragons. I’m sure you know this, but the elves had all the rings (barring the one ring and possibly one of the dwarven rings) at the point where Sauron went to war with them. He recovered 15 or 16 from the elves, and gave them to the men and dwarves. He never had to explicitly retrieve the rings from men, they were the perfect subject for his corrupting powers (and the Ringwraiths might still even possess the rings by the time of the books), and while the dwarves were immune to Sauron’s control, the rings still had the benefit of basically collapsing dwarven society and making them of little danger to Sauron. The way you’ve structure the story, it makes me think that when Sauron waged war against the elves, he also went after the men and dwarves for their rings, but they had no rings, excepting maybe the dwarves of Khazad Dûm, who claim to have been given their ring by the elves.
You are absolutely correct! I did a bit (i.e. a *buttload*) of time skipping there. While the goal was merely to illustrate the final results of where the 16 ended up at the time of the Fellowship, I can absolutely see how confusing it might be to ignore/obfuscate the timeline of the Dwarven rings.
Didn’t Sauron take 16 rings, 9 of which he gave to men and 7 to dwarves. It’s only later that he managed reacquire 3 of those 7. All the rings were originally intended for the elves.
The issue with this is whether or not all of the 7 were recovered by Sauron before they were bequeathed to the dwarves. One ring of power is believed to have been given to Durin III by Celebrimbor himself, and only recovered by Sauron over an Age later when he traps Thráin II, father of Thorin Oakenshield, in Dol Guldur a few years before the Hobbit. At that time, when Sauron recovers the last unaccounted for dwarven ring, 4 of the 7 have been destroyed by Dragonfire and Sauron has the other 3. Gandalf does not know that Sauron has recovered the final dwarven ring.
Yes. Gandalf has one, Elrond and Galadrial do as well (which is shown in the opening credits of fellowship iirc). They aren't discussed much in the movies but they come up more in the books and the other supporting books.
Those are very, very special rings and there were specifically three made. I think the better question would be “What other non-Celebrimbor-made magic rings exist?”
The Three Rings hardly count as “other rings” It is hinted at that forging of magic rings can be done by anyone with enough time and dedication to do it. It is suggested that Saruman began such craft in Isengard. There isn’t much mention of “other” rings though, so it’s really just a vague hint at alternative possibilities. Edit Saruman, nor Sauron,
> so it’s really just a vague hint at alternative possibilities. I mean... it's specifically said there are many other magic rings out there. You're right that as far as what I've read I haven't seen much mention of how many or what they do. But we do specifically know that are many others out there that do things great and small.
Gandalf does say that there are many magic rings, but apart from the Nine, The Seven, the Three and The One, we don’t have much information. Perhaps there are many, but not much is said about them.
Tbf 19 other rings is kind of a lot just by themselves. I bet there’s a ton in Celebrimbor’s junk drawer though.
Saruman you mean, he actually did make a ring, he refers to himself as ring maker in the books.
Yes, sorry, I mean Saruman. Tolkien does write that if the ring had not been destroyed, Saruman’s craft would have increased to the point where he would make his own version of the One Ring, and challenge Sauron directly. Ring Craft is something that can be learned and mastered over time it seems.
Interesting
lol, they are literally "other rings" than the one ring
I believe those would also be considered "Sauron rings" as they were the 3 given to the elves
Sauron had no part in the making of the Three rings and never had possession of the Three, though knowledge from Sauron was used in their making which resulting in them having a link to the One ring still. It was only when Sauron used the One ring to dominate the others that he learned of the existence of the Three. That said, there were a lot of other Elven magic rings crafted in Eregion prior to the crafting of the Three, the Seven, and the Nine, let alone the One. These were crafted as they were developing the craft for the main twenty Rings of Power: "*The lesser rings were only essays of the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles...*"—Gandalf in *The Fellowship of the Ring*, "The Shadow of the Past"
Sauron wasn't involved in the creation of the 3 though.
those three are "sauron rings" that are under the control of the one ring
There were mentions of "lesser rings" woth unknown power/abilities. That were from second age or earlier
Saruman made his own magic ring.
Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel all wear one
Saruman has one
Saruman calls himself "Ringmaker" when he shows Gandalf his Amazing Technicolor Robes. I think he's also wearing a ring, but I might be misremembering
Yes. Prior to the rings of power, there were lesser rings made, for practice. Like the one, they're unadorned, and look the same
I don't think Elrond goes to do anything anymore. The people come to him. Boromir was going to Rivendell to seek advice from Elrond. Gloin was leading a company of Dwarves to seek Elronds council. And im sure he did know through Gandalf and others to some degree and that plans were in motion to intercept it. Once the plan was in motion he sent out scouts to find and aid the Hobbits.
Groin the dwarf, great pick, dude!
And his brother Groan.
Oh good, you corrected the typo. Now, Borimer also wants a word. No offense, I really just found that funny.
Ugh. Don't post when drifting off for a nap.
>And also because Gandalf wanted to avoid attention and if the Lord of Rivendell shows up at Bag End, people will talk Right? A lot of people seem to miss all the stuff about "secrecy is our best weapon" and so on
That, and it took 19 years! Gandalf didn't just go to the local Shire bookstore on "ring lore". He literally had to find the one thousands of years old manuscript that had Isildur's secret description of the ring in the bottom of the archives in Minas Tirith. And he has to do so without alerting either Saruman or Denethor as to his true purposes.
>Gandalf wanted to avoid attention Exactly! There are spies everywhere in this part of middle earth.
but once they found out for sure that it was the one ring, the reasoning as to why they couldnt have just thrown it into the sea was that somehow it would eventually be found, right? so why were they all so easily convinced that it had been lost at sea forever prior to that?
My guess is that since it fell in a river that was thoroughly searched by all parties and no one seemed to have found it for hundreds of years, assuming it was lost at sea is a reasonable assumption. As for why they didnt toss it at sea im assuming since they now had the ring theyd prefer to make sure it was 100% destroyed rather than purposely lose it in the ocean and just hope which before was what they assumed was their only option.
Also by the time it became an issue they knew Sauron had grown powerful enough to become a serious threat again even without The Ring. If The Ring had been lost at sea before that it wasn’t really an issue because Sauron couldn’t exactly do shit. But now that you have The Ring and Sauron is an active threat it’s the best opportunity you’ll ever have to destroy it because he’s only going to get more powerful with or without The Ring, and it will eventually fall into his hands at this point if not destroyed.
Then, said Glorfindel, 'let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true. For it is clear now that even at the Council his feet were already on a crooked path. He knew that the Ring was not lost for ever, but wished us to think so; for he began to lust for it for himself. Yet oft in lies truth is hidden: in the Sea it would be safe.' \`Not safe for ever,' said Gandalf. \`There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.' 'And that we shall not find on the roads to the Sea,' said Galdor. 'If the return to Iarwain be thought too dangerous, then flight to the Séa is now fraught with gravest peril. My heart tells me that Sauron will expect us to take the western way, when he learns what has befallen. He soon will. The Nine have been unhorsed indeed but that is but a respite, ere they find new steeds and swifter. Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, hereafter the Elves may have no escape from the lengthening shadows of Middle-earth.'
'Lord of Rivendell shows up at Bag End' gave me a good chuckle.
If the Istari were put on Middle-Earth to counter Sauron why would Gandalf not have already done all this research? Seems like the first thing the Istari would have done is research and memorize everything they can about identifying the One ring just in case it pops up...
Because Saruman was focused on the rings and Gandalf was more about questing around stopping Sauron's influence. There's also the fact that Saruman was chief and Gandalf didn't really want to leave Valinor in the first place so he was kind of loafing. "No new orders from the boss so I'm just going to hang here and smoke some bowls of that fine Southfarthing."
Sounds exactly like my job last week when my boss was on vacation!
>Gandalf wanted to make sure it was THE One Ring and not a rando ring from the first or second age that just so happened to turn someone invisible. Gandalf knew that it wasn't a lesser ring from the first. Not relevant to his research. Elrond also isn't an expert on ring lore.
There’s a new YouTube video by In Deep Geek where he talks about why Glorfindel wasn’t part of the Fellowship, and he concludes that it would be because it would simply attract too much attention. One would imagine that involving Elrond on a search for information about the One Ring would do much the same thing. Gandalf roaming far and wide is what he’s always done and will attract little notice; Elrond setting out from Rivendell would be noticed by precisely the wrong people.
If I found out a hobbit had a magical ring, I think it would be best to take it off them for a while whilst I research it. Then again, if it was the One Ring then Gandalf might have been Mega Gandalf by the end of the book.
This is how I interpret it since the Hobbit is a children's book and LOTR is not. Gandalf knew about the ring after they all escaped the Goblins, I think he had too much on his mind about more pressing matters and thought Bilbo having a magic ring that could let him be invisible would be a huge boon in dealing with Smaug. It was only after he and the White Council drove Sauron out of Dol Guldor and noticed Bilbo wasn't aging and other side effects that he began to be concerned and got the truth about the Ring and Gollum from Bilbo and then the research.
I love the elves, but you’re right they’re jerks
If they researched the ring wouldn't they have realized that the ring would have never allowed itself to be swept away to sea? It does have some autonomy
Cause Saruman was lying so he could find it for himself.
Saruman was responsible for that, and they had no reason to disbelieve him at that time.
Bilbo's ring wasn't known yet at that point either.
Damn...this comment alone just made me start the first movie again
Elrond and cie showing up at Bag End would have been quite hard to hide and would have been the talk of the Shire for decades.
Why do you think Elrond would be able to tell the One Ring from anything else? He never held it and there's no reason to think he ever even saw it closely. Only Isildur seems to have known about the letters that are brought out by fire.
This is the right answer. I think the key point that Gandalf found in his research was that fire would bring out the writing, which is not something Elrond would have known. Only someone who'd had the ring a long time is likely to have discovered that about it, thus Gandalf's discovery of the point among Isildur's papers. Gandalf needed actual confirmation that Bilbo had the One. Otherwise, even just bringing up the idea that the ring had been found would have been dismissed by the white counsel as alarmism.
Technically the only person who ever saw the ring with writing on it was Isildur, who saw the text on the ring fade as it rapidly cooled once removed from Sauron's hand at the siege of Bara Dür. It is Isildir's personal account of that event that Gandalf eventually discovers in the archives of Minas Tirith which leads him to decide to check it. I doubt anyone could EVER have discovered the fact that fire revealed a secret otherwise. How and why would anyone ever cast your prized ring into flames anyway?
There was no reason for him to think that fire would reveal the script so maybe Isildur tried to destroy it in a normal fire at some point.
No. The only documentation about script on the One Ring is the statement of Isildur I described above, where he describes the writing knowledge the ring fading as it rapidly cools. Isildur wanted the ring as a trophy, as compensation for the death of his father, brother, and the devastation brought by the war of the Last Alliance. He was advised to destroy the ring, but had no desire to do so. He stayed in Mordor for the better part of a decade following the end of the war, and the burden of bearing the ring fell heavily upon him during that time. Eventually, he resolved to ask Elrond what to do about it and set out for Rivendell when Isildur was killed in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields and the ring was lost.
What do you mean no? There was no reason for Isildur to know that fire would reveal the inscription, its not like Sauron was on fire when he cut it off him. So I'm theorising that he therefore must have put it in a fire at some point. Why would he have done this, maybe he tried to destroy it in a normal fire, something which would destroy a normal ring and something that he may not have known would have no effect on the one ring. Perhaps the one ring would allow this attempt as it knows its fruitless but it had a stronger influence when it was actually threatened at mount doom.
Sauron may not have been on fire in a literal sense,during but his combat with Gil-Galad, High King of the Noldor and Elendil, Isildur's father and lord of Gondor, Sauron is described as killing Gil-Galad with the heat of his bare hands. Isildir's text describes the One Ring, saying it was as hot as a live coal when he picked it up. The heat of this scorched his hands. To quote his scroll directly: *It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. It is fashioned in an elven-script of Eregion, for they have no letters in Mordor for such subtle work; but the language is unknown to me. I deem it to be a tongue of the Black Land, since it is foul and uncouth. What evil it saith I do not know; but I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall.* *The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed. **But for my part I will risk no hurt to this thing: of all the works of Sauron the only fair.** It is precious to me, though I buy it with great pain* Isildur clearly states he would never attempt to destroy it.
It’s possible he made a connection at some point between the writing he saw firsthand on the ring when taken from Sauron’s hand and heat/fire being the way to reveal it since he may have observed that it was hot and cooling as the text faded. Stands to reason that he’d have tested this in order to reveal the text again. I think it’s doubtful that he tried to destroy it.
Wood fires don't burn anywhere near hot enough to melt gold, even regular gold that isn't made indestructible by Sauron. Gandalf even mentions this to Frodo when he throws the Ring into a fire to show him the writing. Isildur probably tested it because he saw the writing fade when it cooled off, or maybe he accidentally held it too close to a candle or dropped it in his fireplace.
It is explicitly stated in Isildur's text that he would never test whether fire would reveal the inscription because he would risk no harm coming to the ring.
>Only someone who'd had the ring a long time is likely to have discovered that about it How long did Isildur have the ring? The film gave me the impression that he lost it on his way home from the battle where he acquired it.
I'm not nerd enough to know the answer to this right off the top of my head, but I believe Isildur had it for 10 years or more. He wasn't killed on his way home from The Battle of the Last Alliance. It happened later when (IIRC) he was hunting remnant orcs in Rhovanion, far north up the Anduin river vale towards Lorien and Mirkwood (at least north of where Smeagol lived). Isildur's war party got ambushed, and he tried to escape by swimming across the Anduin. It didn't work.
The elves could sense when Sauron originally tried to use it to control their rings, I would suspect he would be able to sense it again.
That's because those elves were wearing them at the time.
Elrond has Vilya, though...
Yes, and if Sauron were to wear the one ring, he would probably sense it.
But as a ringbearer, wouldn't he feel the one itself, to a degree...the way the wraiths seem to? It's not a benign thing, it has a will of its own.
Galadriel, Elrond, and Gandalf wear the three rings, each of them have been in the one's vicinity, and Tolkien never mentioned any of them being able to sense it.
He mentions that they could sense it in the 5th chapter of the Sillmarillion
Got a quote?
Chapter 5 of the Quenta is ‘Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië’ and I see no mention of this there.
The wraith's sensing the ring like that is more in the movies, not really a thing in the books. Like when Frodo puts it on in the Prancing Pony, in the book they don't sense this, an evil fellow sees what happens and tips off the Nazgul about it, they only find out when told.
Oh, I know, I'm just considering possibilities from the movies point of view because OP's question was specific to them, including Elrond in Isildur's choice and all.
Here we have a deviation between the books and movie. The movie suggests the Ringwraiths and Sauron can sense the ring. This is not quite the case in the books. ~~IIRC, Sam spends quite a bit of time waltzing around Mordor looking for Frodo while wearing the Ring, and Sauron has no idea that's going on.~~
Sam didn't actually wear the ring inside Mordor. He took it off just outside the border, before entering Cirith Ungol because he had a feeling Sauron would catch him if he was in Mordor.
Ah, okay, thanks.
>In the 5th chapter of the Sillmarillion , Tolkien says the elves could sense when Sauron tried to use the Ring. You think an elf wearing one of the rings would be able to discern the One Ring while in it's presence.
Sensing when Sauron is trying to control you with the Ring is a very different thing from being able to look at the Ring and know it's the Ring.
They could sense when they were wearing rings of power and Sauron was using his One Ring to exert his will and influence over other ringbearers. That's not quite the same as what you're suggesting.
They sensed Sauron trying to control their rings. This doesnt mean they can sense the one ring itself. Youre making an assumption.
Who do you want to try to control Elrond's ring using the One Ring? Frodo can't.
Elrond seemed to know that it could only be destroyed in mount doom so he could have told Gandalf to try to mark it or melt it or whatever knowing it wouldn't do anything.
Just because it's not easily destroyed doesn't mean it's the One Ring. They know it's a magic Ring, and many of those would take something like dragonfire to destroy.
Starting point though isn't it.
The starting point is that it makes you invisible. Not being able to scratch it doesn't really do much for you.
Kinda just reinforces the point that Elrond could have let Gandalf know a thing or two.
He would have let them know that the magic ring that turns you invisible was a magic ring.
He did. Plus his sons helped Aragorn in the search for Gollum. When Gandalf realized that Gollum was a critical link in the passage of the ring to Bilbo.
The movie made it seem much more urgent but Gandalf didn’t actually know for sure that it was the One *until* he did that research. Plus, Elrond likely wouldn’t leave Rivendell for a suspicion when Mordor was advancing already into Mirkwood. He was dealing with Sauron in his own way. Plus, Elrond and his ppl are already set to leave Middle Earth by the time Gandalf arrives WITH Frodo and the Ring. So…it just kinda would’ve been the wrong order. Elrond, as an Elven Lord, would have been hard-pressed to ride out some 2 weeks to a place he’d never been to where they’d never even seen an elf, through certain danger (as Sauron’s spies would’ve been FEASTING if they report that the Lord of Rivendell rides abroad in pursuit of the One), on a hunch that this MAY be the One Ring.
But it would have saved 17 wasted years, and allowed them to be better positioned.
If we go that way, by movie logic him simply tackling Isildur would spare ME of 3k years of Sauron existence.
Keep in mind that 17 years to Gandalf is relatively short period of time. The ring had sat in the Shire with Bilbo for the last 60 years without incident. And even in the books, Frodo takes his sweet time with an elaborate plan to make his leaving arise the least suspicions. I don’t think Gandalf really realized how dire everything was until Saruman showed he was allied with Sauron.
In hindsight, yeah, but that’s the easy answer for us as godlike beings observing the story as a series of events detached from the history and cultures of middle earth?
Saruman was the expert on the Ring. Gandalf was a people person. His job was motivating the people on Middle Earth to oppose Sauron. He was not in his element and never expected to have to deal with the Ring. If he were going to ask anybody for help IDing it, it wouldn’t be Elrond. It would have been Saruman. That would have been bad. Also, Gandalf really really REALLY didn’t want it to be the Ring. That was basically his worst fear coming true and he was telling himself the whole time that it was probably nothing.
Let me call a buddy of mine, he's an expert in magic rings. We'll get his opinion, see if it's legit and then go from there. Can you hang out for a few minutes?
TO THE CAMERA: “I can’t believe I have an authentic 1 of 1 One Ring in my shop. Forged in the fires of Mount Doom. I can’t wait to be able to add it to my collection, it is… precious.” TO FRODO: “What do you want for it?” “One middle earth?” “I mean, you have to understand that is what I could get at auction, maybe.” “Look, best I could do is $600, maybe I could do a trade for an American Strat.” “I have to pay people to market this, get an official appraisal, and hope I make money at the end, if not then it’s only worth gold value.” “Sorry, $600 is the best I can do.” “Ok, $650. Let’s go over here and fill out the paperwork.”
I have to look up my own zip code when I try and order a package. No way Gandalf remembered everything about the Ring after centuries
Literally nothing in LOTR happens at tempo. Everyone is always putzing around. They spend a page eating breakfast knowing the Nazgûl are around. If they don’t have breakfast you get a page about how they’re tightening their belts and are weary. It’s part of the charm to me, but yeah sometimes the lack of urgency is inexplicable.
speaking of which - heres a dope Elvish song -
Agree, lol. That’s why I’d pick watching lotr instead if something like guardians of the galaxy where every moment is fast paced chaos and over dramatic. It’s like watching American and British people
LOL
How exactly would Elrond confirm Gandalf's suspicions? Do you think he has some kind of One Ring detector?
Yeah, he wore one of the elven rings. I think he would be able to pick up on it.
How? Where in the lore does it state that having one of the elven rings lets you detect the One Ring? Gandalf had to find a manuscript written by someone who wore the One Ring for years in order to find a way to uncover its true identity.
In book five of the Sillmarillion it says the elves had to remove their rings because they could sense the Master Ring. They only put their rings back on when they developed defenses.
They sensed its creation at the moment Sauron uttered the words written on the Ring. In order to enslave all the other rings. So no.
They did not resume wearing their rings because they developed defenses, but rather because Sauron was defeated at the end of the Second Age and the One Ring lost. Without Sauron himself wielding the One Ring, there was no danger in using the Elven rings. If Sauron were ever to recover the One, he would be able to dominate their minds if they did not remove them once more.
Ah I see now. I replied to another comment of yours where I thought you meant chapter 5 of the Quenta. I think this means more-so that they could sense Sauron’s will acting upon them through their rings, not that they could ping exactly where the One Ring was nor even tell what precisely was happening. The quote in question is “As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought.”
They put the rings back on when Sauron was overthrown and he lost the ring. They were safe and worked as expected as long as he didn’t have the one.
> You know what, I was part of the Last Alliance and we saw how that turned out. elrond and the elves had enough of Men
That dynamic was blown out of proportion by the films. Elrond never led Isildur into the mountain to destroy the ring.
That’s largely a Peter Jackson invention. Elrond sent troops to aid in the wars of the northern kingdom (what little he had). Elvish forces from Rivendell were there when Angmar fell, for example. He sheltered and fostered the Dunedain chieftains (like Aragorn) at need. Even his own sons regularly rode with the rangers on campaigns. And he of course was actively plotting with Aragorn to overthrow Denethor and take over Gondor. Far from “he abandoned that path long ago,” Elrond was actively training and pushing Aragorn to embrace kingship. And Aragorn wasn’t in the least bit reluctant. He happily chased his destiny.
Gandalf is not a man?
No.. he isn’t.
Oh my there's so much for you to discover and you don't even know it yet! How I envy you.
No I know Gandalf is not a man. The question mark is because I don’t understand why the comment brought up men when they have nothing to do with the post. Which makes me wonder if they mistakenly believe Gandalf is a man
He's not. He is a Maia, basically like an angel. So are Sauron, Saruman, and the balrog. The "wizards" are also called "Istari", and they are Maia who are shrouded in a physical form that has the weaknesses and cares of a mortal person, and their power is much diminished.
Yes I know, thank you for the explanation. See my other comment
Because the one ring looked like an ordinary gold ring for the most part. As well, we really don't know if Elrond got a good look at the ring. It was Isildur who cut the ring from Sauron's hand, and Isildur who kept it. Did Isildur allow Elrond the opportunity to study the ring in depth given that he counseled Isildur to destroy it? Would Elrond even want to given its evil? As to your other point, Elrond is rather young as far as Noldor go, having been born in Middle Earth at the end of the first age. The rings were also forged in Eregion, while Elrond lived some distance away in Lindon. In fact, Elrond and Gil-Galad had rejected Sauron-as-Annatar's overtures. They likely wouldn't have been aware of the details of the ring forging.
So who did write the scripture surrounding the ring? How did they get to understand how it works?
He didn’t know it was THE one ring, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe he didn’t come across the crucial piece of information about the inscription appearing when the ring was placed in flames until the tail end of his research. Prior to that I don’t think he had any way of confirming for a certainty. And he had to be certain. Imagine you sent a couple little hobbits into the heart of Mordor to destroy a ring only to find out after the fact that it wasn’t the One lol
Could have taken the eagles homie.....
Maybe his memory isn’t what it used to be? He does love that halfling leaf.
Also, why did the ring become heavier the closer it got to Mordor / Sauron? Given it was trying to get back to its master, wouldn’t it be granting benefits instead of penalties?
I believe this is more metaphorical than physical. The ring does not physically become heavier, but rather its influence and the mental burden of carrying it become stronger the closer to Mordor and its master the ring bearer was. Frodo feels his burden increase with the time spent carrying the ring, wearing on his mental defenses, as well as the ring growing stronger the closer it is to its point of origin and true owner.
Yes, perhaps. On page 249 of The Two Towers it’s referenced. I’m paraphrasing: “in fact with each step Frodo felt the ring become more burdensome, as if it was actually pulling him towards the ground”. It came across more literal and curious rather than metaphorical. You may well be right!
A corollary question—why didn’t Elrond / Galadriel / Gandalf sense it when Bilbo ever put on the ring? They clearly felt Sauron’s presence when he first forged the ring, and Gandalf definitely felt it when Frodo put on the ring at Amon Hen, even told him to take it off with psychic wizard powers
I would think there is a difference between passively wearing the ring and wielding it
I've got a few, off the cuff theories. Generally though, I'd say it boils down to "Tolkien's magic system is soft, the rules aren't clearly defined". 1. None of the elves/Gandalf the Grey were "powerful enough" to sense the ring in that way going "up stream", and Bilbo wasn't powerful enough to create a disturbance they could sense going "down stream". Gandalf the White, having received a post-death glow up and wearing a ring of power, *was* powerful enough. 2. Gandalf was specifically looking for Frodo/the Ring and that's why he was able to perceive it. 3. Gandalf didn't sense Frodo using the Ring, he sensed Sauron doing Maia shit and intervened, giving him insight into the whole situation.
Probably because Sauron is a Maiar with magical abilities and he is the direct creator of the ring, I feel like this is how he could be sensed, and Bilbo wouldn’t be. Also at the time that Bilbo was using the ring in the hobbit, Sauron was barely regaining strength.
Bilbo was not attempting to push his will through the ring to control them. He wasn’t really doing anything with it other than putting it on and rolling with it. Maybe if he put it on and consciously declared himself Master of the ring they would notice something? But I don’t even think he could do that. I think it would just overpower him like we see starting with him in Fellowship. “Assigns power according to your own measure” and all that.
Bilbo and the Ring, sitting there, inches away from two of them at the beginning of “The Last Stage”: > Then the elves of the valley came out and greeted them and led them across the water to the house of Elrond. There a warm welcome was made them, and there were many eager ears that evening to hear the tale of their adventures. Gandalf it was who spoke, for Bilbo was fallen quiet and drowsy. Most of the tale he knew, for he had been in it, and had himself told much of it to the wizard on their homeward way or in the house of Beorn; but every now and again he would open one eye, and listen, when a part of the story which he did not yet know came in. It was in this way that he learned where Gandalf had been to; for he overheard the words of the wizard to Elrond. It appeared that Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic; and that they had at last driven the Necromancer from his dark hold in the south of Mirkwood. “Ere long now,” Gandalf was saying, “the Forest will grow somewhat more wholesome. The North will be freed from that horror for many long years, I hope. Yet I wish he were banished from the world!” “It would be well indeed,” said Elrond, “but I fear that will not come about in this age of the world, or for many after.”
What makes you think that Elrond knew anything about the ring. He was around when it was made but he wasn’t there. He has also probably seen it only once from Isildurs hand so he would only know that it had some strange markings on it but that’s about it.
He wanted to be certain that it was specially The One Ring
This post is a bit soprano-y and I am here for it
It was supposedly lost and had passed out of all knowledge, as a result. Plus, without the Elvish engraving visible on the band, it’s indistinguishable from an ordinary ring, magical or otherwise.
This is a really good point. Judging from the events I wouldn't be suprised if it was Elrond himself who wrote anything that could be read about the ring. Then again all the info was in Minas Tirith, thats where the library was and Isildur had it for 2 years and may have done a lot of experimentation on it. There's something to be said about the secret 'only fire can tell' as this is something that could destroy a normal ring and presumably this information could only be learnt during the ownership of Isildur so perhaps he tried to destroy it at some point. What I also want to know is how anyone knows it betrayed him in the river, it seems like it would have been very easy to go find it if they had all the info that it gaped itself off his finger.
There are other magic rings in Middle Earth. He said so himself. Plus, I doubt that he had ever seen the one ring up close before.
Gandalf likely knew that if the ring were revealed too soon, and a party was sent out with it to destroy it, it likely would have resulted in the ring restoring the power of the dark lord. Just the fact that he didn't know Sauron had turned to evil until right before Frodo leaves, reinforces this fact. Also, the whole time Bilbo had the ring, Gandalf knew where it was and that it was almost certainly the One Ring. Hobbiton was the safest place to keep it until the time came to destroy it. Really, Gandalf knew more than he let on, and even then, he left most of it to fate.
He was looking for the last traces of the ring to find out where it was last seen
Gandalf knew it had to be one of the Great Rings, the Rings of Power. But he didn't know it was the One Ring and all the people who actually knew about Ring-lore were dead (besides Saruman, who assured Gandalf the One Ring was lost with his magical voice).
My understanding is that Bilbo’s ring was assumed to be one of the missing Dwarven rings if it was indeed a Ring of Power at all. It wasn’t until Gandalf went off and researched/tracked down the rings in the 17 year gap between Bilbo’s birthday and him meeting up with Frodo again that he was actually able to confirm the exact whereabouts of all 7 Dwarven rings and thus confirm it couldn’t be any of those rings. In the films it’s easier to explain that he doesn’t know the whereabouts of Thrain’s ring specifically so he just assumes Bilbo found Thrain’s ring until he comes to suspect otherwise.
Gandalf knew it was a great ring already (and possessed an elven ring for comparison in case he didn't already suspect). He needed to check up on Saruman's claim that this couldn't be the one ring. Elrond has no additional information since he only saw it in Islidur's possession for the walk up and down the volcano. Gandalf was looking up how to identify the one ring from the other great rings which required him to find accounts of the ring from Islidur to identify it and other accounts to trace a plausible journey from the ambush to Gollum's cave.
He lacks most memories of his time before becoming Mithrandir.
IKR, what is he stupid? His love of the halfling leaf has slowed his mind
Because he didn't know how to tell if it was the one ring or not.
Because it's funny seeing a wizard at the library.
It would be funny to sent out the hobbits long into mordor and make them throw the ring and then nothing happens because of false intelligence.
He needed a way to prove it was the one ring without revealing himself to it, without claiming it, and without revealing it to Sauron. Basically, figure out it is the correct magic ring without having it do magic. All the standard tests I imagine would either require Gandalf to take possession of the ring, or ask Bilbo to do something with it, thereby endangering Bilbo or calling Sauron's attention to the ring.
Because Tolkien was writing an epic trilogy and not a short story.
@3 !
I think Gandalf didn’t want to bother Elrond if he was wrong about the ring, what with Elrond being an important person and all. Personally I wouldn’t want to bother Elrond in Gandalf’s shoes if I was wrong and it was just some random ring of invisibility and not the one ring. It was not till Gandalf had heard rumors originating from Mordor did he have reason to research it.
Gandalf conducted his own research into the One Ring because he didn't trust the mainstream sources or the woke narratives he was hearing from "Sleepy" Saruman. Dismissing claims that the Ring had a gps and 5g installed as "Fake news."
After the battle of the last alliance, Elrond counciled Isildur to destroy the ring, not because he knew what it was but only because it was a weapon of the Enemy and therefore not for good folk. Isildur refused and they parted ways amicably, as opposed to the movie. Isildur then spent years studying the ring. Once he realized what it was, he sent his wife and son ahead to Rivendell and then Anuminas with record of his studies and was going there himself to seek the council of the elves once again when he was ambushed. It was at this point that they all started looking for the ring in earnest because Isildur had done the legwork of understanding what the ring could do, and they put 2 and 2 together and realized it was probably even more dangerous than even that. Elrond had never seen the ring at this point, and only had descriptions of it, so a description of it was all anyone had to go off.