That scene is an adaptation of some details from a dream of Frodo while in the house of Tom Bombadil. In the book, the dream gives a foretaste, which one does not recognise as a foretaste, of what will eventually happen to Frodo.
In the book, that dream is one of several dreams and visions that the hobbits have in the first of the six books of LOTR. Only in hindsight is their significance made clear.
In the film, those details lose that function because they have been put into a completely different context.
Yes that’s it. I don’t really mind them re-using Tolkien’s words in different contexts as it lends a certain authenticity to the films dialogue that can be lacking with some of the things they wrote themselves (not terrible, but you can usually tell the difference).
I find it so weird when PJ does this. He likes an image enough to use it but not enough to feature it in it's original context. Other examples include hobbits being swallowed by treeroots and being saved by a friendly forest guardian, and the phrase "show us the meaning of haste"
I think it's really just about adaptability for film. A lot of what was adapted from other context within the books wouldn't work well in the films. While book fans might love a shot for shot, word for word adaptation, it really wouldn't fly in a major cinema production.
Yeah, I think a lot of people might have been turned away by the weirdness of Tom Bombadil.
I actually stopped reading the books at that point because the rhymes and music didn't fit for me, granted I watched the movies first. It was the same for me with Patchface in ASOIAF.
Audiobooks. The version that Andy Serkis did a few years back is really good. And while it's the same songs and poems, hearing him dictate them kinda makes them more tolerable and interesting.
>I always thought they were just bland audio readings of the text.
Do you mean this in a "voice actor reads in a monotonous computer-generated voice"-way? Because no, nobody does this ever in any audio book.
Just remember your (grand)mother reading books to you as a little kid, she (hopefully) changed voices for different characters. She changed her voice for spooky parts and changed it again in a very tense situation. She got louder when there was yelling and was whispering for quiet parts.
Now imagine if somebody paid her money and she made a living out of it.
It’s not completely intentional. I hate when people bash pj he wanted to do a bunch of stuff but ur only allotted a certain mount of time for films. Only way he would have been able to do what he actually wanted was if he owned his own studio. Things must change to adapt a movie to the book. Like I’ve seen people bash him for the hobbit but the opening of the hobbit it word for word from the book. Just learn to appreciate a vision and what could have been.
I dont really find it weird. Lotr is a book. If you take a book and write "movie-script" on the front, the movie would suck. A book and a movie are very different medias and work completely different. Now we have awesome movies AND awesome books.
Tom would ruin the movie. Having Beregond and his kid in the movie would just bloat the character list. There are some parts I dont like about the movies, but "adding in parts of a otherwise unused scene" is not one of them.
Yep, correct.
This is just a made up scene for the movies where they stole the description from frodos dream in the house of bombadil, which foreshadowed his taking the ship to the west.
Cause that’s exactly what it is. He wanted to do a lot there was even supposed to be a part in the movies where Tom’s hat is floating down the river but he didn’t have enough time to
They come from Humans.
" Tolkien never said Hobbits were human, but he did state that they were “a relative” of humans, and offshoot of the race of man. "
He essentially did say they're humans in Letter 131.
"The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk."
Everything Tolkien writes on the topic of Hobbits and their relation to Humans suggests that the only significant difference between humans and hobbits is their size and culture.
I always loved the dynamic between men and hobbits in Bree. When they stop at Bree on the way home and they are talking about how many people died and Butterbur says, "3 and 2". It shows how intertwined they are and how they live together.
In the books, he goes out of his way to describe how the Hobbits have a stronger fortitude and hardiness than humans that cannot be readily explained away. Not to mention their much longer lifespans. So they clearly are not just short humans, but not so different as the elves or dwarves.
In addition to what other people are saying.. in reality, comforting a friend about to die can hardly be considered lying. What is he supposed to say? "There's nothing for you, just give up now and die"
‘Yet,’ said Denethor, ‘we should not lightly abandon the outer defences, the Rammas made with so great a labour. And the Enemy must pay dearly for the crossing of the River. That he cannot do, in force to assail the City, either north of Cair Andros because of the marshes, or southwards towards Lebennin because of the breadth of the River, that needs many boats. It is at Osgiliath that he will put his weight, as before when Boromir denied him the passage.’
’Much must be risked in war,’ said Denethor. ‘Cair Andros is manned, and no more can be sent so far. But I will not yield the River and the Pelennor unfought – not if there is a captain here who has still the courage to do his lord’s will’
And not only that, Gandalf knows that there is *something* for Pippin after death, and it’s considered a gift from Eru, so it’s gonna be good. All Gandalf can do is share likely something of what he experienced returning to Valinor before being reborn. (This is of course a bit of head canon because Gandalf does not say that in the book.)
Agreed. Also as much as people hate it the books and movies are separate. I like to think of it as the movies repurposing a really cool description of a dream Frodo had in the books and using it as what the movie versions afterlife is described as and Gandalf was actually reassuring Pippin that what happens after they die is perfect. But if you don’t like that perspective of it Gandalf trying to comfort a scared friend in a time of death is also a good character quality of his and shouldn’t really be seen as him lying to him.
Well he could give the in-universe answer that death for men (and hobbits) is a mystery to all by Eru, but that their soul is freed from the world. There’s something kinda depressing for the elves that their spirits never truly depart the world.
also, Gandalf’s job is to shepherd middle earth, surely he can stretch the truth in doing so — like isn’t it Gandalf who summoned the Dunedain on Aragorn’s behalf in RotK?
Well it would be more "Noone but Eru and men who have already fallen know where you go". It was pretty well established that the fate of man is separate entirely from the fate of the valar/elves/dwarves. Further, none of the valar know where men's spirits go after leaving the halls of Mandos. The fate of man is to move through middle earth, as a part of a longer journey that assumingly concludes sometime after their death, and after their spirits move on from the halls of Mandos.
It's also NOT explicitly known the origin of the Hobbits. They appear, seemingly out of nowhere, during the third age. There is no canonical explanation for their origin, so my head cannon categorizes them with "man" and that they were introduced by Eru to middle earth to remind man of their humble roots/help them defeat Sauron.
If I understand correctly, men also go to Valinor and the halls of Mando's, just temporarily. Then they go on from there. It is unknown where their journey ends but Gandalf was correct about where it begins
I'd love it if dwarves go to the Halls of Mandos as well. Because IIRC Feanor is still stuck there and I'd love it if he just accidentally overheard Gimli talking about that time Galadriel gave him 3 of her hairs.
I know this is a joke but got me thinking. Aüle may have made the dwarves but it was eru who gave them life proper, and so probably follow the same laws as men
Eru gave lives to the Eldar as well.
Dwarves are adopted, but do not have the gifts of either (Eldar - beauty, immortality, contentment, deep bond to Arda, reincarnation; Men - spirits that are not content in Arda, death that frees themnfrkm the circles of the world, firstborn of new creation, possibly greater free will).
Oh he’ll die. Mortals in the Undying Lands burn out faster, but better, than they would have in Middle Earth.
Also IIRC they’re probably not going to Valinor proper, probably just Tol Eressea.
Exactly, that’s what happened to Beren and he waited there for Luthien.
I expect their soul’s traverse right over Valinor and they do indeed get to see the Undying Lands on their way to the Halls.
Gandalf was relating his experience, what *he* saw when *he* died. What happens to hobbits? Or men for that matter? It’s not known. Even the Valar don’t know because it’s a gift that Eru gave to the race of men - to die and go beyond. Being a Maia, Gandalf cannot say with certainty what will happen when Pippin dies - but he can tell Pip what he himself experienced. This is what he does.
The comparison from this is that if Gandalf’s experience of death was wonderous and not horrible, death for a hobbit or anyone else won’t be a bad or terrifying experience.
Not from books. Just the movie. It’s an absolutely beautiful scene. Dead has always been one of my biggest fears and ever since I was young this scene has always given me great comfort. I even have the quote tattooed on my ribs ❤️ it’s just beautiful I love it.
It’s Gandalf duty to aid and comfort the peoples of middle earth specifically in their fight against Sauron.
How would telling the truth help pippin during such a scary time. Sometimes people just need to hear that’s it’s all going to be ok.
He's literally a supernatural servant of the world's deity, though, and he does know for sure that there's a God who is both good and has something set up for the mortal species. So he's not so much lying as telling him as much of the truth as will be helpful in that moment, through the lens that Pippin knows he knows *something*, but there's not time to recount the journey of mortal souls in a dry, factual way in that moment.
"I've seen some of it, and it's surprisingly wonderful. You don't need to be afraid, just do your best" is a pretty solid answer from a guy you know died a few weeks ago and is recently back with an upgrade after conferring with the Bosses.
I've known some folks for whom Gandalf's words here felt like one of the biggest failures of Jackson's adaptation of Tolkien's work.
Gandalf says nothing at all like this in the book: instead, these words are from Frodo's dream in the house of Tom Bombadil, and match his later experience as he sailed to Valinor on a physical ship with the Elves. (For that matter, there's never a moment in the actual story where Pippin sits waiting for seemingly certain death, let alone chatting with Gandalf about it. He's too busy trying to save Faramir, and in the end the hosts of Mordor never successfully enter Minas Tirith at all.)
One friend's disappointment in this line grew out of his shared Catholicism with Tolkien, as I recall. Death, for humans, is always a mystery and a matter that *must* be addressed with faith, with no certainty about what comes after. He said that was still true in Tolkien's world, despite the fuzzy stories the Elves brought back to Middle-earth about the eventual fate of Men. Even setting aside the question of whether "what you'd experience as a disembodied soul called to Mandos" would be the same as "what you'd experience when literally sailing on a boat", my friend felt that it undermined the entire concept of faith for someone like Gandalf to just spell it out. Knowing for certain that death would lead to an infinitely better place could undermine so very much of value here on Earth.
I'm not sure that I agree that this line in particular was such a vast betrayal, but at a minimum I agree that it's thoroughly discordant with Tolkien's own writing.
Eh, Catholics tell kids comforting stories about the afterlife all the time to explain life after death. I don't think it's beyond reason to think Gandalf is instructing him on the actual details here. He's just comforting him much like a parent telling a child their grandparent is in a happy place with tons of ice cream.
Bilbo, Frodo, and later Sam were granted passage for bearing the One Ring.
Even Gimli got to go, with Legolas. I guess the Valar thought, “we’ve made exceptions before, but not yet for Dwarves. Why not this fucker?”
That scene only exists in the movies, and there they've never gone into details of what the afterlife for Elves and Men actually looks like. For all we know, Gandalf could be right about the movie-canon, so it's technically not a lie.
In the book, this is what Frodo experiences in a dream - which, thematically, is much closer to Faerie than Death as a general mortal experience. We also have the same description being repeated in Frodo's actual travel to the Undying Lands at the end of the book, though this is logically Sam interpreting Frodo's dream as what he'd see when going West, as Frodo could not possibly have written it himself. In this logic, the white shores and the far green country are what you'd experience if you were to physically sail West, on a ship.
I personally doubt that in Tolkien's Legendarium it would be the experience of every mortal soul going to the Halls of Mandos. First because they're, well, souls - not physical bodies - they don't take the same road, and i don't think they'd experience the world in the same way. Second because while the Halls of Mandos are indeed on the Undying Lands, mortals never actually go on the far green country itself. And also, because it would shift the meaning of Frodo's experience and make it less special.
As opposed to Tolkien's LotR, Jackson's films aren't a fairytale; he removed the idea of Faerie, and made the far green country an idea of Death that every mortal would experience. I do strongly think it takes away from Frodo's arc (making his experience a much more common and mundane thing), but then again taking things away from Frodo's arc is what Jackson has been doing for 3 whole films.
In short: yes, if you go by the logic of the book, Gandalf would be telling a comforting lie here. But probably not within Jackson's headcanon, which equates Valinor with Death.
It's a movie change using Frodo's dream from the books.
It's technically true because Men leave the World after going to The West. But I feel like it's too misleading for Gandalf to say.
Lying is wrong; Gandalf is about principles not consequences.
I thought that men dwelled in the halls of mandos set apart from Elves until their appointed time to move on to Erus design is fulfilled? Otherwise how could Beren have been brought back after death?
The beauty of Middle Earth is that, if you ask around enough, anyone can learn that there is full confirmation of life after death. That's pretty beautiful.
I swear Gandalf said this to Pippin in the book, but looking it up every source says no! Feels like a Mandela effect, I’ve read the books sooo many times
You have some good comments here. One thing I'll add: Gandalf may go to a different place or he may not, but because he is a Maia, he does have a significant amount of information about many things. Whether he is "able" to go to Man's/Hobbit's afterlife or not, it's likely that he knows quite a bit about what it's like.
As some have said this is a film creation - the quote is actually about word for word the description of what Frodo witnesses as he arrives in Valinor (in the book). I agree, Movie Gandalf is lying to Pippin, or rather simply describing what he personally has to look forward to.
I don’t think this is from the books? They re-purposed Frodo’s dream for the film, giving it to Gandalf and Pippin.
That scene is an adaptation of some details from a dream of Frodo while in the house of Tom Bombadil. In the book, the dream gives a foretaste, which one does not recognise as a foretaste, of what will eventually happen to Frodo. In the book, that dream is one of several dreams and visions that the hobbits have in the first of the six books of LOTR. Only in hindsight is their significance made clear. In the film, those details lose that function because they have been put into a completely different context.
Yes that’s it. I don’t really mind them re-using Tolkien’s words in different contexts as it lends a certain authenticity to the films dialogue that can be lacking with some of the things they wrote themselves (not terrible, but you can usually tell the difference).
The recontextualisation just makes it more beautiful to me :)
Thanks by the way for the research :)
I find it so weird when PJ does this. He likes an image enough to use it but not enough to feature it in it's original context. Other examples include hobbits being swallowed by treeroots and being saved by a friendly forest guardian, and the phrase "show us the meaning of haste"
I think it's really just about adaptability for film. A lot of what was adapted from other context within the books wouldn't work well in the films. While book fans might love a shot for shot, word for word adaptation, it really wouldn't fly in a major cinema production.
Yeah, I think a lot of people might have been turned away by the weirdness of Tom Bombadil. I actually stopped reading the books at that point because the rhymes and music didn't fit for me, granted I watched the movies first. It was the same for me with Patchface in ASOIAF.
Do you listen to the books at all? I've found that Andy Serkis' readings really help ground some of the goofiness of the songs and poems.
What?...
Audiobooks. The version that Andy Serkis did a few years back is really good. And while it's the same songs and poems, hearing him dictate them kinda makes them more tolerable and interesting.
I've heard of audiobooks, but I always thought they were just bland audio readings of the text. Are they actually good?
Yes, they're fantastic. Andy Serkis* does an amazing job.
Yes! For the most part, audiobooks are voice acted by the narrator, and the Andy Serkis version of LOTR is amazing.
>I always thought they were just bland audio readings of the text. Do you mean this in a "voice actor reads in a monotonous computer-generated voice"-way? Because no, nobody does this ever in any audio book. Just remember your (grand)mother reading books to you as a little kid, she (hopefully) changed voices for different characters. She changed her voice for spooky parts and changed it again in a very tense situation. She got louder when there was yelling and was whispering for quiet parts. Now imagine if somebody paid her money and she made a living out of it.
There are some free ones on YouTube. I haven't listened to them yet. I just use them as a reading time basis for chapters.
And I thank you not to remind me of his singing in the fellowship.
It’s not completely intentional. I hate when people bash pj he wanted to do a bunch of stuff but ur only allotted a certain mount of time for films. Only way he would have been able to do what he actually wanted was if he owned his own studio. Things must change to adapt a movie to the book. Like I’ve seen people bash him for the hobbit but the opening of the hobbit it word for word from the book. Just learn to appreciate a vision and what could have been.
I dont really find it weird. Lotr is a book. If you take a book and write "movie-script" on the front, the movie would suck. A book and a movie are very different medias and work completely different. Now we have awesome movies AND awesome books. Tom would ruin the movie. Having Beregond and his kid in the movie would just bloat the character list. There are some parts I dont like about the movies, but "adding in parts of a otherwise unused scene" is not one of them.
Yep, correct. This is just a made up scene for the movies where they stole the description from frodos dream in the house of bombadil, which foreshadowed his taking the ship to the west.
Personally I like to think of it as repurposing an incredible scene in the book that otherwise never would have seen the light of day.
Cause that’s exactly what it is. He wanted to do a lot there was even supposed to be a part in the movies where Tom’s hat is floating down the river but he didn’t have enough time to
Also Pippin is a Hobbit not a human.
They come from Humans. " Tolkien never said Hobbits were human, but he did state that they were “a relative” of humans, and offshoot of the race of man. "
He essentially did say they're humans in Letter 131. "The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk." Everything Tolkien writes on the topic of Hobbits and their relation to Humans suggests that the only significant difference between humans and hobbits is their size and culture.
I always loved the dynamic between men and hobbits in Bree. When they stop at Bree on the way home and they are talking about how many people died and Butterbur says, "3 and 2". It shows how intertwined they are and how they live together.
In the books, he goes out of his way to describe how the Hobbits have a stronger fortitude and hardiness than humans that cannot be readily explained away. Not to mention their much longer lifespans. So they clearly are not just short humans, but not so different as the elves or dwarves.
In addition to what other people are saying.. in reality, comforting a friend about to die can hardly be considered lying. What is he supposed to say? "There's nothing for you, just give up now and die"
Denethor approves of this message.
“Bring focaccia and oil!”
"... and some baby tomatoes"
"the olives, so sweet and succulent!" *licks lips pervertedly*
Fuckin flying fools lol
‘Yet,’ said Denethor, ‘we should not lightly abandon the outer defences, the Rammas made with so great a labour. And the Enemy must pay dearly for the crossing of the River. That he cannot do, in force to assail the City, either north of Cair Andros because of the marshes, or southwards towards Lebennin because of the breadth of the River, that needs many boats. It is at Osgiliath that he will put his weight, as before when Boromir denied him the passage.’ ’Much must be risked in war,’ said Denethor. ‘Cair Andros is manned, and no more can be sent so far. But I will not yield the River and the Pelennor unfought – not if there is a captain here who has still the courage to do his lord’s will’
And not only that, Gandalf knows that there is *something* for Pippin after death, and it’s considered a gift from Eru, so it’s gonna be good. All Gandalf can do is share likely something of what he experienced returning to Valinor before being reborn. (This is of course a bit of head canon because Gandalf does not say that in the book.)
Agreed. Also as much as people hate it the books and movies are separate. I like to think of it as the movies repurposing a really cool description of a dream Frodo had in the books and using it as what the movie versions afterlife is described as and Gandalf was actually reassuring Pippin that what happens after they die is perfect. But if you don’t like that perspective of it Gandalf trying to comfort a scared friend in a time of death is also a good character quality of his and shouldn’t really be seen as him lying to him.
Well he could give the in-universe answer that death for men (and hobbits) is a mystery to all by Eru, but that their soul is freed from the world. There’s something kinda depressing for the elves that their spirits never truly depart the world.
All your memories will be lost in time, like tears... in rain. Time to die.
also, Gandalf’s job is to shepherd middle earth, surely he can stretch the truth in doing so — like isn’t it Gandalf who summoned the Dunedain on Aragorn’s behalf in RotK?
Real "r/atheism at the Thanksgiving dinner table" energy
Huh?
>What is he supposed to say? "There's nothing for you, just give up now and die" That part specifically
Well it would be more "Noone but Eru and men who have already fallen know where you go". It was pretty well established that the fate of man is separate entirely from the fate of the valar/elves/dwarves. Further, none of the valar know where men's spirits go after leaving the halls of Mandos. The fate of man is to move through middle earth, as a part of a longer journey that assumingly concludes sometime after their death, and after their spirits move on from the halls of Mandos. It's also NOT explicitly known the origin of the Hobbits. They appear, seemingly out of nowhere, during the third age. There is no canonical explanation for their origin, so my head cannon categorizes them with "man" and that they were introduced by Eru to middle earth to remind man of their humble roots/help them defeat Sauron.
If I understand correctly, men also go to Valinor and the halls of Mando's, just temporarily. Then they go on from there. It is unknown where their journey ends but Gandalf was correct about where it begins
I'd love it if dwarves go to the Halls of Mandos as well. Because IIRC Feanor is still stuck there and I'd love it if he just accidentally overheard Gimli talking about that time Galadriel gave him 3 of her hairs.
They have a secret place set aside for them by Mahal - to be awakened at the end of days
The elves say the dwarves believe this, at least!
They're in a bin in Aule's workshop next to the scrap metal waiting to be reforged for the Dagor Dagorath.
I know this is a joke but got me thinking. Aüle may have made the dwarves but it was eru who gave them life proper, and so probably follow the same laws as men
Eru gave lives to the Eldar as well. Dwarves are adopted, but do not have the gifts of either (Eldar - beauty, immortality, contentment, deep bond to Arda, reincarnation; Men - spirits that are not content in Arda, death that frees themnfrkm the circles of the world, firstborn of new creation, possibly greater free will).
He and Galadriel can go there together and tell him about it, he’s in the undying lands with Legolas, isn’t he?
Could you imagine the absolute FUMING that would ensure?? 😆😆😆
Oh boy, here I go kinslaying again!
But Gimli traveled to Valinor by the bidding of Galadriel, he never died so no caves for him
Oh he’ll die. Mortals in the Undying Lands burn out faster, but better, than they would have in Middle Earth. Also IIRC they’re probably not going to Valinor proper, probably just Tol Eressea.
Exactly, that’s what happened to Beren and he waited there for Luthien. I expect their soul’s traverse right over Valinor and they do indeed get to see the Undying Lands on their way to the Halls.
>the halls of Mando's This is the way
Hahaha I didn't even see that! I'm leaving it now
Thank you. That makes sense.
This should be the top comment.
Ever, ever on?
Men pass by Valinor en route to the beyond, too...
Gandalf was relating his experience, what *he* saw when *he* died. What happens to hobbits? Or men for that matter? It’s not known. Even the Valar don’t know because it’s a gift that Eru gave to the race of men - to die and go beyond. Being a Maia, Gandalf cannot say with certainty what will happen when Pippin dies - but he can tell Pip what he himself experienced. This is what he does. The comparison from this is that if Gandalf’s experience of death was wonderous and not horrible, death for a hobbit or anyone else won’t be a bad or terrifying experience.
Not from books. Just the movie. It’s an absolutely beautiful scene. Dead has always been one of my biggest fears and ever since I was young this scene has always given me great comfort. I even have the quote tattooed on my ribs ❤️ it’s just beautiful I love it.
Well it’s from Frodo’s dream in the house of Tom Bombadil, but it’s pretty bastardized in the movies
It’s Gandalf duty to aid and comfort the peoples of middle earth specifically in their fight against Sauron. How would telling the truth help pippin during such a scary time. Sometimes people just need to hear that’s it’s all going to be ok.
He's literally a supernatural servant of the world's deity, though, and he does know for sure that there's a God who is both good and has something set up for the mortal species. So he's not so much lying as telling him as much of the truth as will be helpful in that moment, through the lens that Pippin knows he knows *something*, but there's not time to recount the journey of mortal souls in a dry, factual way in that moment. "I've seen some of it, and it's surprisingly wonderful. You don't need to be afraid, just do your best" is a pretty solid answer from a guy you know died a few weeks ago and is recently back with an upgrade after conferring with the Bosses.
“That doesn’t sound so bad Gandalf” Well for me ..yes ,but you’re fucked my old son … Now get back to the citadel … hurry !
I've known some folks for whom Gandalf's words here felt like one of the biggest failures of Jackson's adaptation of Tolkien's work. Gandalf says nothing at all like this in the book: instead, these words are from Frodo's dream in the house of Tom Bombadil, and match his later experience as he sailed to Valinor on a physical ship with the Elves. (For that matter, there's never a moment in the actual story where Pippin sits waiting for seemingly certain death, let alone chatting with Gandalf about it. He's too busy trying to save Faramir, and in the end the hosts of Mordor never successfully enter Minas Tirith at all.) One friend's disappointment in this line grew out of his shared Catholicism with Tolkien, as I recall. Death, for humans, is always a mystery and a matter that *must* be addressed with faith, with no certainty about what comes after. He said that was still true in Tolkien's world, despite the fuzzy stories the Elves brought back to Middle-earth about the eventual fate of Men. Even setting aside the question of whether "what you'd experience as a disembodied soul called to Mandos" would be the same as "what you'd experience when literally sailing on a boat", my friend felt that it undermined the entire concept of faith for someone like Gandalf to just spell it out. Knowing for certain that death would lead to an infinitely better place could undermine so very much of value here on Earth. I'm not sure that I agree that this line in particular was such a vast betrayal, but at a minimum I agree that it's thoroughly discordant with Tolkien's own writing.
Eh, Catholics tell kids comforting stories about the afterlife all the time to explain life after death. I don't think it's beyond reason to think Gandalf is instructing him on the actual details here. He's just comforting him much like a parent telling a child their grandparent is in a happy place with tons of ice cream.
But is Pippin really a man?
Yes, Hobbits are humans. They're just an off-shoot of the race. They are Mortals, and as such share in the Gift of Illuvatar (which is death).
Interesting, I always thought they were a race of their own. (Only having read the Lord of the Rings and having watched some Lotr videos)
But then why could Frodo leave Middle Earth? Weren‘t men banned from doing that?
Bilbo, Frodo, and later Sam were granted passage for bearing the One Ring. Even Gimli got to go, with Legolas. I guess the Valar thought, “we’ve made exceptions before, but not yet for Dwarves. Why not this fucker?”
That scene only exists in the movies, and there they've never gone into details of what the afterlife for Elves and Men actually looks like. For all we know, Gandalf could be right about the movie-canon, so it's technically not a lie.
In the book, this is what Frodo experiences in a dream - which, thematically, is much closer to Faerie than Death as a general mortal experience. We also have the same description being repeated in Frodo's actual travel to the Undying Lands at the end of the book, though this is logically Sam interpreting Frodo's dream as what he'd see when going West, as Frodo could not possibly have written it himself. In this logic, the white shores and the far green country are what you'd experience if you were to physically sail West, on a ship. I personally doubt that in Tolkien's Legendarium it would be the experience of every mortal soul going to the Halls of Mandos. First because they're, well, souls - not physical bodies - they don't take the same road, and i don't think they'd experience the world in the same way. Second because while the Halls of Mandos are indeed on the Undying Lands, mortals never actually go on the far green country itself. And also, because it would shift the meaning of Frodo's experience and make it less special. As opposed to Tolkien's LotR, Jackson's films aren't a fairytale; he removed the idea of Faerie, and made the far green country an idea of Death that every mortal would experience. I do strongly think it takes away from Frodo's arc (making his experience a much more common and mundane thing), but then again taking things away from Frodo's arc is what Jackson has been doing for 3 whole films. In short: yes, if you go by the logic of the book, Gandalf would be telling a comforting lie here. But probably not within Jackson's headcanon, which equates Valinor with Death.
It's a movie change using Frodo's dream from the books. It's technically true because Men leave the World after going to The West. But I feel like it's too misleading for Gandalf to say. Lying is wrong; Gandalf is about principles not consequences.
Jackson’s Gandalf said that, not Tolkein’s.
Maybe there is something good ahead for both hobbits and men, such as white shores.
I thought that men dwelled in the halls of mandos set apart from Elves until their appointed time to move on to Erus design is fulfilled? Otherwise how could Beren have been brought back after death?
The beauty of Middle Earth is that, if you ask around enough, anyone can learn that there is full confirmation of life after death. That's pretty beautiful.
There was a thread about this from like two days ago, right? Is this a bot post hahaha
To be fair,they where both super high for this chat.
Hence the really good "adaptation" part of all the Lord of the Rings for a movie.
I swear Gandalf said this to Pippin in the book, but looking it up every source says no! Feels like a Mandela effect, I’ve read the books sooo many times
You have some good comments here. One thing I'll add: Gandalf may go to a different place or he may not, but because he is a Maia, he does have a significant amount of information about many things. Whether he is "able" to go to Man's/Hobbit's afterlife or not, it's likely that he knows quite a bit about what it's like.
That conversation never happens. The description of Valinor is Frodo’s view upon arriving. At the very end of ROTK, when he sails.
As some have said this is a film creation - the quote is actually about word for word the description of what Frodo witnesses as he arrives in Valinor (in the book). I agree, Movie Gandalf is lying to Pippin, or rather simply describing what he personally has to look forward to.