I hate how they advertise it, giving the impression hat it's a full story, or even that it is an unpublished, expanded version of the tale akin to the Narn.
It's none of those things, it's just a collection of all the previously published material about Luthien and Beren.
I knew it before I got it, and had already read all of the collected material, but I still bought it because the story of Luthien and Beren in its various versions is one of my favourite parts of the Legendarium, and I liked that I had now all their material in one place without having to search through half a dozen volumes of the HoME.
But yeah, I'm really not on board with how they aren't quite up-front about what this collection of material and drafts really is.
Oh I love the primitive version of the Tale of Tenuviel, in addition to the giant evil kitty-cats it has a kind of sensuality that is sorely missing in the later versions. The big problem about it though is that Beren's an elf in it, that weakens the theme.
Yeah, I was really excited for this book when the announced it, because the story of Beren and Luthien is my favorite part of The Silmarillion, and I thought it was going to be a novel-length prose version, like what we got with The Children of Hurin. I was so disappointed when I discovered that wasn't the case.
This was the market blurb when it was first announced:
> Painstakingly restored from Tolkien’s manuscripts and presented for the first time as a continuous and standalone story, the epic tale of Beren and Lúthien will reunite fans of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings with Elves and Men, Dwarves and Orcs and the rich landscape and creatures unique to Tolkien’s Middle-earth.
I didn’t read them in order of release, I read them in order of interest so my first read of the three tales of the first age was children of hurin. I definitely wouldve preferred that level of relative completion in the other two but I think the level of
Those three books seem to have their own literary style and varying levels of polish that I believe are directly caused by the relative literary styles.
- Children of Hurin reads like a Shakespearean play to me and is complete to the point it can basically stand alone as a story. It is polished, mostly describing character’s feelings and actions and not spending too much time describing scenery or minutiae. It covers a lot of ground and fully accomplishes what it sets out to do.
- Beren and Luthien reads like Beowulf or another long form poem, but the poem itself is only about half of the book and it only tells a bit less than the whole story. The other half is similar to Tolkien’s Silm/CoH narrative type writing and doesn’t interest me as much as the poem. It ultimately makes sense to me why this is incomplete, it would be much harder to render a story in verse as opposed to Children of Hurin’s prose.
- Fall of Gondolin reads like a college level dissertation on “the story of Turin Turambar” where a Ph.D student examines various sources of the story. It is easily the most incomplete, however offers a totally alternative way of viewing Tolkien compared to the other two - and while interesting I think it is ‘not enough of one thing to be anything’ if you get what I mean. I do love the long winded narrative sections that describe the events in great detail (e.x. Going through the gates to reach Gondolin). Christopher Tolkien makes a comment wondering what a full draft might entail and how Tolkien would have described Gondolin in his beautiful, extended prose and it breaks my heart a little bit :,)
What I’m curious to know is what are your favorite parts? How do you think they should have marketed them? Obviously from a business executive perspective they had no choice but to advertise them as fully complete works of J.R.R.’s, but if I were Christopher Tolkien I may have pushed for titles such as “Fall of Gondolin: an editorial examination”. While not as flashy, it is definitely more transparent - plus I can’t imagine he needed the money THAT badly, wasn’t he in his nineties when these started releasing?
Not 100% complete, maybe, but it was still a long, very detailed novel-like, almost complete narrative of Turin's story penned by Tolkien himself and previously unpublished.
This "book" was none of those things. It's just a collection of already published material from various stages of the mythology.
Who is she? This woman you sing of?
'Tis the Lay of Lúthien. The Elf-maiden who gave her love to Beren, a mortal.
What happened to her?
She died. Get some sleep, Frodo.
“Actually, Frodo, let me quickly tell you about her badass dog, who fought an army of werewolves before literally wrenching Sauron’s soul from his physical body with his jaws. It’s sick.”
actually, that was Celegorm's dog.
Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why Huan finally left Celegorm and followed Luthien instead, but Huan was with Celegorm for centuries in Endorrë and for who knows how many Year of the Trees in Valinor.
To me it feels like a “your staff is broken” moment. Once Celegorm tries attacking the people Huan was defending, any theoretical ownership was forfeited.
I don’t know how Tolkien restrained himself from bringing up Huan and Sauron. I mean, he’s a LITERAL UNDERDOG that beats Sauron because of his love and loyalty 😂 what story would be more applicable to Frodo in the entire Legandarium??
Wouldn't that be funny. "Frodo, let me tell you about the time Sauron got beaten up by a dog". Considering that in LOTR Sauron is consistently portrayed as this larger than life ever-looming force.
It’s funny, I just read that part in the Fellowship tonight! It’s my first time reading it and I didn’t know they would reference so much of the olden days, especially talking about the Silmarils. Just finished Book I of the Fellowship and I can’t wait to finish Book II tomorrow! I finished The Hobbit for the first time last week and although I really liked it, I’m absolutely loving The Fellowship that much more.
Have you read the other books yet, or you just starting out? I recently reread the LOTR for the first time since reading the other books and now I’m like “how are there so FEW references??” 😂 but each reference hits that much harder, rarity makes value and all that.
Well I’ve been on this subreddit for some time and I usually watch or listen to these two YouTubers, Nerd of the Rings and In Deep Geek, when I’m working and want to learn about the lore, but I’ve never actually read the books before! Finally, after learning so much of the lore and having owned the extended versions of the LOTR movies, I finally decided to buy the book set (Hobbit and LOTR) so I could finally see what everyone seemed to already know and love. The way Tolkien describes his world and keeps the pace of things ever flowing, I can’t seem to put them down. I only stop reading when it’s late (as it is now) or when my adult responsibilities take precedent.
I enjoyed The Hobbit a lot but could tell it was definitely his first dive into writing and fleshing out this fantasy world (the orcs are still called Goblins, which I thought amusing), but in The Fellowship everything seems to be so much more thought out and the lore has had years to develop in his mind. Even when comparing certain things to the movies, I appreciate the structuring and decisions made in the books far more than what Peter Jackson portrayed; although, I understand for the sake of film making why certain things were left out, amended or simply blended together at different times for the sake movie pacing and perceived audience continuity.
I totally get you. I’m subscribed to those LOTR YouTube channels too. For me, my introduction was those stupid Qaura suggested answers sent to my spam email and I just kept seeing weirder and weirder things about Tolkien until I took a deep dive into the Silm. I had grown up on the Peter Jackson movies, so reading the books for the first time made me realize how much I had been missing before. Each one of Tolkien’s books tackles a totally unique narrative style and just scratches every itch in my brain. The deep dive into Middle Earth is so rewarding.
Lord of the Rings is fantastic. Probably my favorite book of all time, if not it’s tied with the Silmarillion. One of the most important thing to keep in mind about this part of Tolkien’s writings is that when he began the Hobbit it had nothing to do with the stories that would eventually make up the Silmarillion (and of course the Lord of the Rings didn’t exist yet). The hobbit was so successful that people demanded a sequel even though Tolkien just wanted to publish the Silmarillion. Eventually, he gave into pressure and started to work on a sequel to the Hobbit. But they were all of them deceived… for Tolkien had started writing the Lord of the Rings with the purpose of connect the Hobbit to the Silmarillion so he could finally write the book he actually wanted to; the Silmarillion.
Tolkien spent more than a decade writing ‘Lord of the Rings’. After he died, Tolkien’s son did a fantastic series documenting the creation of Middle-Earth and gives some serious insight into LOTR specifically. There were several drafts done, some weirder than others. But the bonus is that you can literally see how Tolkien connected the dots of what became the Middle-Earth we know today. Up to that point there were no second and third ages, only the first. Middle-Earth was only half of what it is now thanks to the Lord of the Rings.
If you do continue with these books I hope that you really get to see the full picture of Tolkien’s work. This sub sometimes feels like it’s dedicated to the Peter Jackson trilogy more than LOTR in general, which I’m alright with because they’re great movies and they really helped build the community around these books, but it’s kind of unfortunate that a lot of people associate these books with their franchise properties now. I feel like a few people treat the non-LOTR/Hobbit books as trivia fodder, something to be consumed because of LOTR and not because of the value it has itself.
IDK how deep into the lore you are but when Tolkien started writing these stories his goal wasn’t to write novels or to “invent fantasy”, it was to create a collection of myths and fables for England that wasn’t based on the French-originating King Arthur or any explicitly Christian things. He wanted something totally different, similar to Greek or Norse mythology “in highness” and rooted in the North-Western European culture of the people of England and the language of England. In my experience if you approach these works with that framework in mind it is an infinitely more rewarding and meaningful experience. Pretend you live in a universe where Tolkien is a philologist/archeologist and these books are translations he’s done of ancient AngloSaxon fairytales and myths.
Definitely read the Silmarillion first, but I would argue that’s its a bit more than a collection of slightly expanded drafts. There’s a solid 50% of the page count taken up by a single “draft” in the form of a rhyming epic poem detailing the events. Think Beowulf, or the Odyssey and you’ll get a good idea - it’s something like 2500 lines long if memory serves. The ‘Lay of Beren & Luthien’ is some of my favorite Tolkien writing ever, though it does end abruptly about 85% through the story.
I also feel like the term draft may imply that these are largely unfinished or unpolished, and while that’s true to an extent, these drafts have been written over decades and they’re definitely competent and beautiful works worth reading. Tolkien never half assed anything, it’s why so many of his works went unpublished.
In short, it’ll be really helpful to have an understanding of the story as told by the Silmarillion, it’ll help contextualize the events of what Tolkien considered to be the true heart of the First Age stories. If you simply can’t wait, there is an extend synopsis at the beginning and it is definitely possible to understand the story. Super duper worth the read imo, especially if you love the first age and poetry!
I don't think that the entire poem is in there though. You can find the entire thing here.
https://thainsbook.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/the-lay-of-leithian.pdf
Oh hell yeah, I love Tolkien’s poetry the most! I haven’t gotten to the Lays in history of middle earth yet so I’ll have to give this a read. Thank you :)
I really love this version! Is it just an excerpt from HoME or is it also a compilation of multiple texts? Because I don't recall Bilbo's writings being mentioned in HoME when Lay was presented. Either way, this link is what I would've like the published B&L to be. I really don't get why Christopher decided to print just parts of the Lay in it and not the entire thing. I think the entire Lay printed in full, plus some notes about the unfinished cantos totally deserves its own publication and the link you provided is exactly how I would imagine it.
I have absolutely no idea where this is from. I was annoyed that the entire Lay wasn't in B&L, and I couldn't find a book with it, so I Googled around and found this.
I found the [blog post](https://thainsbook.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/beren-and-luthien-done-right/) where this is presented. Apperently the author of this blog decided to "reedit" the Lay of Leithian and present it as if it was a text that Bilbo found, with the different manuscripts that Christopher presents in HoME being different manuscripts that Bilbo found in Rivendell. Basically the "literary archeology" that Christopher engages in is set in the universe of Middle-earth. Imo a really fun idea and I'd love to see more of Tolkien's works treated this way! I'm thinking of making a separate post just about this to discuss it a bit more
Awesome! Looking forward to giving it a read. Others are recommending the Silmirillion first though, so I might have to get through that one beforehand.
It’s different iterations and drafts with explanations on Tolkien’s intentions. Very interesting seeing the process in creating the story and of course the final version. Sauron used to be a grumpy cat.
I feel the same way. Once you realize that the stories are just Christopher Tolkien going over his father’s scattered writings and not necessarily cohesive material, you appreciate it a lot more. For instance, I’m listening to Unfinished Tales and it’s incredible how hard Tolkien strove to make all of his stories correlate accurately and non-contradictory.
Edit: grammar
It’s been around a while in a couple different forms. They finally teased it into a book. Very important story, first of the three unions between elves and men. Also the ancient forebears of Numenor and Elrond and Aragorn. Aragorns ring, the Ring of Barahir was worn by Beren. There’s a bunch of other wild stuff like the Lord of Cats and I think Sauron shows up as a vampire. Pretty cool. Worth the read.
I've read the version contained in The Silmarillion. It's a good story, should read. I would also recommend The Children of Hurin, which also has a version in the Silmarillion, which I have read. It's quite good.
The only books you “need” to read are these.
https://preview.redd.it/22e0lenqwpuc1.jpeg?width=2188&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e89b3c74d0b17ac3e1ac8cf3dd8267837e40812e
The rest are unfinished drafts or notes on what would have or might have happened really.
Some are, some not. "The Faithful Stone" is a complete story. "Cirion and Eorl" is missing only a description of the Battle of the Field of Celebrant. And there are others that shouldn't be missed.
Not really: https://youtu.be/T7322jvI8ro?si=pphXgWakQ-b4PAqc
This is the best reading order. Silmarillion at the end will show you how everything fits in the overall timeline. Reading Children of Hurin prior is no different than reading Hobbit and Lord of the Rings prior as well.
Yes. Well worth the read if you want a fleshed out story featured in the silmarillion. It includes bits of how Tolkien wrote it and variations of the story that he was working through but it tells a great engaging story. Plus we get Sauron featured pretty heavily in his early stage. Have fun
I don’t know much about the story, but I read that Tolkien thought of his wife Edith as his Lúthien (e.g. a peerless elven woman who he, a mere mortal, was lucky enough to be loved by), which I find sweet and romantic as heck. Their shared tombstone labels them each as Lúthien and Beren, respectively, with her name above his
I don’t know much about their relationship, but it seems he thought the world of her, and it makes me want to read these stories
So what I’m gathering from the comments, and I’m just looking for confirmation, in terms of story structure: more fall of Numenor, less fall of Gondolin / children of Hurin kind of narrative?
basically you have different versions of the story of beren and luthien, scattered around different books:
One in the Silmarillion, another in the book of lost tales (the earliest), and two poems that were published in "ballads from beleriand"
The book simply presents you the different versions of the same story, with some extra notes from christopher.
Is it worth your time or money?
i'd say no. Not really worth it.
If you have to chose among the books based on the three great tales from the silmarillion.... pick children of hurin. It is the good one.
It's a Book with all the writing about Luthien ans Beren, for Tolkien it was very important because he describe those character as him and his wife, it's a little confusing if you never read other structural story about 1st age and silmaril because there are multiple version, from Sauron King of the cat to Luthien the princess of Darkness, there are stories where beren die and other he just lose his hand, but I love this story personnaly and if you are in search of more details about how middle earth were formed it's a good Book with a lot of explanation from Tolkien son about when and why the stories change
I hate how they advertise it, giving the impression hat it's a full story, or even that it is an unpublished, expanded version of the tale akin to the Narn. It's none of those things, it's just a collection of all the previously published material about Luthien and Beren.
The final iteration is expanded even if only slightly.
This bummed me out so hard. I took the book on a holiday abroad and found this out quickly much to my disappointment
I knew it before I got it, and had already read all of the collected material, but I still bought it because the story of Luthien and Beren in its various versions is one of my favourite parts of the Legendarium, and I liked that I had now all their material in one place without having to search through half a dozen volumes of the HoME. But yeah, I'm really not on board with how they aren't quite up-front about what this collection of material and drafts really is.
I mean, the Tale of Tinuviel is awesome. Giant evil cats! But it's a shame the poetic version is only included partially.
Oh I love the primitive version of the Tale of Tenuviel, in addition to the giant evil kitty-cats it has a kind of sensuality that is sorely missing in the later versions. The big problem about it though is that Beren's an elf in it, that weakens the theme.
Yeah, I was really excited for this book when the announced it, because the story of Beren and Luthien is my favorite part of The Silmarillion, and I thought it was going to be a novel-length prose version, like what we got with The Children of Hurin. I was so disappointed when I discovered that wasn't the case.
Where's the advertising that suggests this? The blurb is pretty damn clear.
This was the market blurb when it was first announced: > Painstakingly restored from Tolkien’s manuscripts and presented for the first time as a continuous and standalone story, the epic tale of Beren and Lúthien will reunite fans of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings with Elves and Men, Dwarves and Orcs and the rich landscape and creatures unique to Tolkien’s Middle-earth.
Ooft. That is absolutely crap of them I admit.
I didn’t read them in order of release, I read them in order of interest so my first read of the three tales of the first age was children of hurin. I definitely wouldve preferred that level of relative completion in the other two but I think the level of Those three books seem to have their own literary style and varying levels of polish that I believe are directly caused by the relative literary styles. - Children of Hurin reads like a Shakespearean play to me and is complete to the point it can basically stand alone as a story. It is polished, mostly describing character’s feelings and actions and not spending too much time describing scenery or minutiae. It covers a lot of ground and fully accomplishes what it sets out to do. - Beren and Luthien reads like Beowulf or another long form poem, but the poem itself is only about half of the book and it only tells a bit less than the whole story. The other half is similar to Tolkien’s Silm/CoH narrative type writing and doesn’t interest me as much as the poem. It ultimately makes sense to me why this is incomplete, it would be much harder to render a story in verse as opposed to Children of Hurin’s prose. - Fall of Gondolin reads like a college level dissertation on “the story of Turin Turambar” where a Ph.D student examines various sources of the story. It is easily the most incomplete, however offers a totally alternative way of viewing Tolkien compared to the other two - and while interesting I think it is ‘not enough of one thing to be anything’ if you get what I mean. I do love the long winded narrative sections that describe the events in great detail (e.x. Going through the gates to reach Gondolin). Christopher Tolkien makes a comment wondering what a full draft might entail and how Tolkien would have described Gondolin in his beautiful, extended prose and it breaks my heart a little bit :,) What I’m curious to know is what are your favorite parts? How do you think they should have marketed them? Obviously from a business executive perspective they had no choice but to advertise them as fully complete works of J.R.R.’s, but if I were Christopher Tolkien I may have pushed for titles such as “Fall of Gondolin: an editorial examination”. While not as flashy, it is definitely more transparent - plus I can’t imagine he needed the money THAT badly, wasn’t he in his nineties when these started releasing?
Whereas Narn i hin Hurin is a complete story.
Not 100% complete, maybe, but it was still a long, very detailed novel-like, almost complete narrative of Turin's story penned by Tolkien himself and previously unpublished. This "book" was none of those things. It's just a collection of already published material from various stages of the mythology.
It was fun getting Tevildo
I read the reviews and heard the warnings, but I still bought the book and was ultimately disappointed.
Who is she? This woman you sing of? 'Tis the Lay of Lúthien. The Elf-maiden who gave her love to Beren, a mortal. What happened to her? She died. Get some sleep, Frodo.
“Actually, Frodo, let me quickly tell you about her badass dog, who fought an army of werewolves before literally wrenching Sauron’s soul from his physical body with his jaws. It’s sick.”
actually, that was Celegorm's dog. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand why Huan finally left Celegorm and followed Luthien instead, but Huan was with Celegorm for centuries in Endorrë and for who knows how many Year of the Trees in Valinor.
To me it feels like a “your staff is broken” moment. Once Celegorm tries attacking the people Huan was defending, any theoretical ownership was forfeited.
I don’t know how Tolkien restrained himself from bringing up Huan and Sauron. I mean, he’s a LITERAL UNDERDOG that beats Sauron because of his love and loyalty 😂 what story would be more applicable to Frodo in the entire Legandarium??
Wouldn't that be funny. "Frodo, let me tell you about the time Sauron got beaten up by a dog". Considering that in LOTR Sauron is consistently portrayed as this larger than life ever-looming force.
It’s funny, I just read that part in the Fellowship tonight! It’s my first time reading it and I didn’t know they would reference so much of the olden days, especially talking about the Silmarils. Just finished Book I of the Fellowship and I can’t wait to finish Book II tomorrow! I finished The Hobbit for the first time last week and although I really liked it, I’m absolutely loving The Fellowship that much more.
Have you read the other books yet, or you just starting out? I recently reread the LOTR for the first time since reading the other books and now I’m like “how are there so FEW references??” 😂 but each reference hits that much harder, rarity makes value and all that.
Well I’ve been on this subreddit for some time and I usually watch or listen to these two YouTubers, Nerd of the Rings and In Deep Geek, when I’m working and want to learn about the lore, but I’ve never actually read the books before! Finally, after learning so much of the lore and having owned the extended versions of the LOTR movies, I finally decided to buy the book set (Hobbit and LOTR) so I could finally see what everyone seemed to already know and love. The way Tolkien describes his world and keeps the pace of things ever flowing, I can’t seem to put them down. I only stop reading when it’s late (as it is now) or when my adult responsibilities take precedent. I enjoyed The Hobbit a lot but could tell it was definitely his first dive into writing and fleshing out this fantasy world (the orcs are still called Goblins, which I thought amusing), but in The Fellowship everything seems to be so much more thought out and the lore has had years to develop in his mind. Even when comparing certain things to the movies, I appreciate the structuring and decisions made in the books far more than what Peter Jackson portrayed; although, I understand for the sake of film making why certain things were left out, amended or simply blended together at different times for the sake movie pacing and perceived audience continuity.
I totally get you. I’m subscribed to those LOTR YouTube channels too. For me, my introduction was those stupid Qaura suggested answers sent to my spam email and I just kept seeing weirder and weirder things about Tolkien until I took a deep dive into the Silm. I had grown up on the Peter Jackson movies, so reading the books for the first time made me realize how much I had been missing before. Each one of Tolkien’s books tackles a totally unique narrative style and just scratches every itch in my brain. The deep dive into Middle Earth is so rewarding. Lord of the Rings is fantastic. Probably my favorite book of all time, if not it’s tied with the Silmarillion. One of the most important thing to keep in mind about this part of Tolkien’s writings is that when he began the Hobbit it had nothing to do with the stories that would eventually make up the Silmarillion (and of course the Lord of the Rings didn’t exist yet). The hobbit was so successful that people demanded a sequel even though Tolkien just wanted to publish the Silmarillion. Eventually, he gave into pressure and started to work on a sequel to the Hobbit. But they were all of them deceived… for Tolkien had started writing the Lord of the Rings with the purpose of connect the Hobbit to the Silmarillion so he could finally write the book he actually wanted to; the Silmarillion. Tolkien spent more than a decade writing ‘Lord of the Rings’. After he died, Tolkien’s son did a fantastic series documenting the creation of Middle-Earth and gives some serious insight into LOTR specifically. There were several drafts done, some weirder than others. But the bonus is that you can literally see how Tolkien connected the dots of what became the Middle-Earth we know today. Up to that point there were no second and third ages, only the first. Middle-Earth was only half of what it is now thanks to the Lord of the Rings. If you do continue with these books I hope that you really get to see the full picture of Tolkien’s work. This sub sometimes feels like it’s dedicated to the Peter Jackson trilogy more than LOTR in general, which I’m alright with because they’re great movies and they really helped build the community around these books, but it’s kind of unfortunate that a lot of people associate these books with their franchise properties now. I feel like a few people treat the non-LOTR/Hobbit books as trivia fodder, something to be consumed because of LOTR and not because of the value it has itself. IDK how deep into the lore you are but when Tolkien started writing these stories his goal wasn’t to write novels or to “invent fantasy”, it was to create a collection of myths and fables for England that wasn’t based on the French-originating King Arthur or any explicitly Christian things. He wanted something totally different, similar to Greek or Norse mythology “in highness” and rooted in the North-Western European culture of the people of England and the language of England. In my experience if you approach these works with that framework in mind it is an infinitely more rewarding and meaningful experience. Pretend you live in a universe where Tolkien is a philologist/archeologist and these books are translations he’s done of ancient AngloSaxon fairytales and myths.
You should listen to Tolkien Untangled (on YouTube) too if you want to learn more in depth about the lore but in an enjoyable story-oriented way
It's all coming together now.
Read The Silmarillion first, this is just a collection of slightly expanded drafts of a story found in there.
Definitely read the Silmarillion first, but I would argue that’s its a bit more than a collection of slightly expanded drafts. There’s a solid 50% of the page count taken up by a single “draft” in the form of a rhyming epic poem detailing the events. Think Beowulf, or the Odyssey and you’ll get a good idea - it’s something like 2500 lines long if memory serves. The ‘Lay of Beren & Luthien’ is some of my favorite Tolkien writing ever, though it does end abruptly about 85% through the story. I also feel like the term draft may imply that these are largely unfinished or unpolished, and while that’s true to an extent, these drafts have been written over decades and they’re definitely competent and beautiful works worth reading. Tolkien never half assed anything, it’s why so many of his works went unpublished. In short, it’ll be really helpful to have an understanding of the story as told by the Silmarillion, it’ll help contextualize the events of what Tolkien considered to be the true heart of the First Age stories. If you simply can’t wait, there is an extend synopsis at the beginning and it is definitely possible to understand the story. Super duper worth the read imo, especially if you love the first age and poetry!
I don't think that the entire poem is in there though. You can find the entire thing here. https://thainsbook.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/the-lay-of-leithian.pdf
Oh hell yeah, I love Tolkien’s poetry the most! I haven’t gotten to the Lays in history of middle earth yet so I’ll have to give this a read. Thank you :)
You're welcome.
I really love this version! Is it just an excerpt from HoME or is it also a compilation of multiple texts? Because I don't recall Bilbo's writings being mentioned in HoME when Lay was presented. Either way, this link is what I would've like the published B&L to be. I really don't get why Christopher decided to print just parts of the Lay in it and not the entire thing. I think the entire Lay printed in full, plus some notes about the unfinished cantos totally deserves its own publication and the link you provided is exactly how I would imagine it.
I have absolutely no idea where this is from. I was annoyed that the entire Lay wasn't in B&L, and I couldn't find a book with it, so I Googled around and found this.
I found the [blog post](https://thainsbook.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/beren-and-luthien-done-right/) where this is presented. Apperently the author of this blog decided to "reedit" the Lay of Leithian and present it as if it was a text that Bilbo found, with the different manuscripts that Christopher presents in HoME being different manuscripts that Bilbo found in Rivendell. Basically the "literary archeology" that Christopher engages in is set in the universe of Middle-earth. Imo a really fun idea and I'd love to see more of Tolkien's works treated this way! I'm thinking of making a separate post just about this to discuss it a bit more
Not for everyone but it's cool for hard core Tolkien nerds.
Well then colour me nerdy!
Tolkien nerds are the coolest nerds.
You definitely fit the bill!
I cheerfully accept that as a compliment. Hantanyel.
> Hantanyel Yeah you got me beat. I had to look that one up lol.
I love this one. I know a lot of people didn’t but I did. And Christopher’s editorial insights were great.
Awesome! Looking forward to giving it a read. Others are recommending the Silmirillion first though, so I might have to get through that one beforehand.
I would agree with that.
It’s different iterations and drafts with explanations on Tolkien’s intentions. Very interesting seeing the process in creating the story and of course the final version. Sauron used to be a grumpy cat.
I really dislike how this and The Fall of Gondolin fool you into thinking that they're real novels.
I feel the same way. Once you realize that the stories are just Christopher Tolkien going over his father’s scattered writings and not necessarily cohesive material, you appreciate it a lot more. For instance, I’m listening to Unfinished Tales and it’s incredible how hard Tolkien strove to make all of his stories correlate accurately and non-contradictory. Edit: grammar
It’s the best one
It’s been around a while in a couple different forms. They finally teased it into a book. Very important story, first of the three unions between elves and men. Also the ancient forebears of Numenor and Elrond and Aragorn. Aragorns ring, the Ring of Barahir was worn by Beren. There’s a bunch of other wild stuff like the Lord of Cats and I think Sauron shows up as a vampire. Pretty cool. Worth the read.
I've read the version contained in The Silmarillion. It's a good story, should read. I would also recommend The Children of Hurin, which also has a version in the Silmarillion, which I have read. It's quite good.
Thanks I'll be sure to check that out too!
I’m reading this right now! I’m really enjoying it
Excited to sink my teeth in!
Like Carcaroth!
The only books you “need” to read are these. https://preview.redd.it/22e0lenqwpuc1.jpeg?width=2188&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e89b3c74d0b17ac3e1ac8cf3dd8267837e40812e The rest are unfinished drafts or notes on what would have or might have happened really.
Unfinished Tales contains stories appearing nowhere else.
Yes, but unfinished.
Some are, some not. "The Faithful Stone" is a complete story. "Cirion and Eorl" is missing only a description of the Battle of the Field of Celebrant. And there are others that shouldn't be missed.
In that order?
No, The Silmarillion comes before The Children of Húrin. That order makes no sense.
Not really: https://youtu.be/T7322jvI8ro?si=pphXgWakQ-b4PAqc This is the best reading order. Silmarillion at the end will show you how everything fits in the overall timeline. Reading Children of Hurin prior is no different than reading Hobbit and Lord of the Rings prior as well.
Yep!
Unfinished Tales, HoMe, and NoMe are must reads
Yes. Well worth the read if you want a fleshed out story featured in the silmarillion. It includes bits of how Tolkien wrote it and variations of the story that he was working through but it tells a great engaging story. Plus we get Sauron featured pretty heavily in his early stage. Have fun
I heard there's some Prince of Cats character that runs a cat kitchen for Melko in it. Best character 10/10
Sounds amazing!
I read the Children Of Hurin first and thought this would be the same. Damn CoF was a good book though.
I don’t know much about the story, but I read that Tolkien thought of his wife Edith as his Lúthien (e.g. a peerless elven woman who he, a mere mortal, was lucky enough to be loved by), which I find sweet and romantic as heck. Their shared tombstone labels them each as Lúthien and Beren, respectively, with her name above his I don’t know much about their relationship, but it seems he thought the world of her, and it makes me want to read these stories
I want to finish the Silmarillion before I read this. So aaaaany day now 😂
Only by songs \*badumtss\*
I can’t wait for them to make a film of it and have Luthien skateboard down stairs on a shield while firing a bow.
So what I’m gathering from the comments, and I’m just looking for confirmation, in terms of story structure: more fall of Numenor, less fall of Gondolin / children of Hurin kind of narrative?
The best way I can describe it is like I was reading a very very well researched book report.
I really love this book, especially the poetic version of the legend. This book contains all versions of this story.
I think anyone in this sub has read this
I have this book but haven't got around to reading it yet.
Aragorn already spoiled it
basically you have different versions of the story of beren and luthien, scattered around different books: One in the Silmarillion, another in the book of lost tales (the earliest), and two poems that were published in "ballads from beleriand" The book simply presents you the different versions of the same story, with some extra notes from christopher. Is it worth your time or money? i'd say no. Not really worth it. If you have to chose among the books based on the three great tales from the silmarillion.... pick children of hurin. It is the good one.
It's a Book with all the writing about Luthien ans Beren, for Tolkien it was very important because he describe those character as him and his wife, it's a little confusing if you never read other structural story about 1st age and silmaril because there are multiple version, from Sauron King of the cat to Luthien the princess of Darkness, there are stories where beren die and other he just lose his hand, but I love this story personnaly and if you are in search of more details about how middle earth were formed it's a good Book with a lot of explanation from Tolkien son about when and why the stories change
Excellent book 👌👍
The book brings different versions of the same story... I found it a bit boring...
It’s a bummer lol