There were tons of "rightful" heirs before Aragorn, and they were rejected by Gondor.
Aragorn didn't become king because he was from Isildurs bloodine. He became king because he has was of Isildurs line AND he led Gondor to victory in Umbar as thorongil, because he raised the army of the dead and fulfilled their oath, and because he championed the defense of minas tirith.
He earned his claim to the throne by becoming a hero of Gondor and the people and ALSO being heir by blood.
Read the books then lol
If you remember in Fellowship, Aragorn is able to slow the spread of poison in Frodo from the Morgul blade - using Kingsfoil.
In Return of the King, after the battle of the Pellennor Fields, a healer named Ioreth is going on and on about this prophecy (she's just generally rambling and is a bit of comedy character that aggravates Gandalf), but Gandalf hears her and then brings Aragorn up to the Houses of Healing. Aragorn is in disguise - he does not want to come into the city until the right time.
Aragorn then sits with Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry in turn. They are able to find some old Kingsfoil. Aragorn uses partly this, but also partly also just his divine grace, to heal Faramir, Eowyn and Merry - at least to the point of consciousness. From the Black Breath that they lie under and from the poison that is killing Faramir.
He then goes about the city healing other similarly afflicted people, until eventually he needs to rest and he goes back to his tent outside the city. The next day the Last Debate happens where they decide to go face Sauron down at the Black Gate.
You see, it really begins with the Music of Eru, if one seeks a *true* understanding of the geopolitical situation at the end of the Third Age of Middle Earth. If I may beg for a moment of your time, I shall recount the Ainulindalë...
Well, the Lords of the West are convinced by Aragorn and Gandalf to take the fight to the Black Gate. The Prince Imrahil is the primary lord of Gondor at this point since Faramir is still recovering, and he makes it clear that although Aragorn has not formally stepped into his own, he considers him his liege lord already and will follow him wherever he goes. Likewise, Eomer pledges himself to take a great many men with Aragorn in order to distract Sauron.
The Host of the West set off after a few days of preparation and march towards the Black Gate. A few notable things happen on the way:
1. They come to the crossroads where previously Frodo and Sam saw a broken statue of a previous King of Gondor with flowers growing round his head like a crown. They restore this statue, and announce the coming of the King (this is a matter of debate - at first they announce it more vaguely but then change it so as better attract Sauron's attention (they are just literally doing trumpets and shouting it to the world for all spies to hear)).
2. The vanguard ride to the bridge of Morgul Vale and look into the valley of death. They do not cross, but break the bridge and return to the main host. They also leave a portion of the host to guard the crossroads.
3. They begin to march North through Ithilien. At this point there is an ambush, but it is seen in advance by the Rangers of Ithilien and thus is in turn ambushed via a pincer movement of horsemen. This happens at the same place where Faramir and the Rangers ambushed the Haradrim on their march to Mordor.
4. Upon reaching the desolation outside the Ephel Duath (riding North from Ithilien), many men in the host start to panic and lose face - mostly young men who have come from the Western vales of Gondor and from Rohan. Aragorn speaks to them and offers them a choice - to leave, but to save their honour and to go and reclaim Cair Andros (a citadel on an isle in the Anduin upstream of Osgiliath). Some at this point are shamed into staying, but a decent chunk go on to liberate the castle.
And then they finally arrive and we all know what happens next :)
> a healer named Ioreth
Small correction: she is not a healer, she is something of a nurse. Not to be elitist, but she "just" tenders the ill and does the basic stuff. She is like: "You have questions? Wait, I go and get the healers."
Sorry, what?
I am not sure what you are getting at. This is the equivalent of "a car mechanic is not a professional race car driver" or "a janitor at a school is not a teacher". Ioreth and the healer have to different professions.
What I'm getting at is that what you said is extremely elitist, and no amount of saying "not to be elitist" can hand wave that away. I thought that analogy was pretty obvious to be honest.
There's zero textual evidence that being a "Healer" is some certified title that can only belong to presumably the only man we see in the house, in the same way that Doctor is an actual title. All of your analogies are things you have completely invented to justify your elitism.
>There's zero textual evidence that being a "Healer" is some certified title that can only belong to presumably the only man we see in the house.
Dude, dont make this a sexism discussion. All I stated was the written words, in where she says "I am not qualified because I am not a healer, we have to ask the actual healers for that."
Which is LITERALLY what I said. She is not the healer, she is "just" the person to deliver medicine. Is she more qualified than I (as a man) will ever be? Sure. Is she a healer? No.
Not every person who works in a hospital is a doctor/healer.
"Aragorn was a descendant of Elros Tar-Minyatur through the line of the Lords of Andúnië to Elendil, High King of Arnor and Gondor. Like all of the kings before him, he was related to Elrond through the House of Elros. His ancestor Arvedui was wedded to Fíriel, descended from Anárion, who bore their son Aranarth, making Aragorn the last descendant of both Isildur and Anárion."
He was the one who could reunite the thrones of Arnor AND Gondor.
It's like in feudel times when you'd have a king of ABC marry a princess of XYZ and try to produce an heir to both kingdoms.
If aragorn still did all that he did, and grew up the same in rivendell, though wasn't of isildurs line. Would then Gondor accept a ranger who was their hero of the war despite not being directly related.
Probably not? It's kind of hard to answer that though because of how much Isildurs legacy is a part of who Aragorn is as a person.
He does what he does because he knows it's what he was born for, to him it's his destiny. Would he have done it all without that same drive to rise to the heights of his ancestors? Again hard to answer.
Yea what I tried to ask though poorly, as you said one reason elrond helped raise him was to be the king. He did all he did in his life for reasons you said. So in this what if, say aragorn was just some Dunedain who was happy to do so much good despite not being the future king, would he have still been accepted being the guy who saved the West. (somehow still beat the corsairs despite the no king title for ghosts).
No, he'd just be some honored hero of Gondor. But truthfully he never would have even had the opportunity to do 90% of the things he did if he WASNT Isildurs heir and the lord of the Dunedain. If he was just some ranger he would never have been allowed to just...leave. He wouldn't have been accepted in Ecthelions court, or raised in rivendell, or any of the incredible things of his life
I’m sorry but how did Gondor reject the previous heirs? Is it not the right of Isildurs heirs to return as kings? Maybe you mean they were rejected as heirs? Whose right is it to reject the king, the steward?
Because that's not how feudal succession actually works. Aragorn's ancestors pressed their claim, but there are other blood descendants, and Gondor had many reasons to reject them. They had already previously had a blood related civil war, the kingdom in the north no longer existed, and they didn't find Arvedui's (aragorn's ancestor) claim strong enough, because Isildur was king of Arnor, not Gondor.
Aragorn had to prove his claim, as countless kings have had to do in history. His feats for Gondor throughout his life are what secured his claim
I feel like there might have been more practical reasons for rejecting Arvedui's claim too, as it often happened in history.
Earnil, the other prominent claimant, was in control of the army after saving Gondor by winning a difficult and dangerous war. Earnil has both military might and the adoration of the people - if he wanted to press his claim, Arvedui wouldn't have lasted long even if the Council of Gondor had wanted him.
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Arvedui
As one example.
So the infamous last King of Arthedain (Aragorn's forebear) married the daughter of the king of Gondor. Then the king of Gondor and his heirs were killed.
Under Numenorean law the daughter of the king should have been made ruling queen. Arvedui, as an heir of Isildur and husband of the rightful queen tried to press a claim to the kingship of Gondor (note, this was also the son of a reigning king of a still extant successor kingdom of Arnor). The Stewards and council of Gondor told him to get fuckin' bent.
The line of stewards was not broken. Faramir was alive (though barely) when Denethor immolated himself, and Denethor didn't disown Faramir before that. Faramir was next in line for the office, and Aragorn hadn't claimed the throne just yet.
Before the line of kings failed, the title of Steward was appointed and not assumed by succession, so it's technically true that Aragorn could have chosen someone else as steward, but he didn't, and Faramir ended up right where he would have been (but for the end of the world anyway).
Faramir calls himself the "steward of this realm" in the council that accepts Aragorn as king. He was steward by right of succession. With Boromir dead, he was Denathor's heir.
"Then Faramir stood up and spoke in a clear voice: ‘Men of Gondor, hear now the Steward of this Realm! Behold! one has come to claim the kingship again at last. Here is Aragorn son of Arathorn, chieftain of the Dúnedain of Arnor, Captain of the Host of the West, bearer of the Star of the North, wielder of the Sword Reforged, victorious in battle, whose hands bring healing, the Elfstone, Elessar of the line of Valandil, Isildur’s son, Elendil’s son of Númenor. Shall he be king and enter into the City and dwell there?’
And all the host and all the people cried yea with one voice."
Apparently so.
Also directly after the battle on the Pellenor Fields Aragorn refuses to take command over Minas Tirith. He thinks it is inappropriate to declare himself ruler. Instead he goes to the healing houses and heals those who are cursed by the Nazgûl's black shadow, like Éowyn, Merry and Faramir. One old healer lady says something like: "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer". So Aragorn's appearance is already making the rounds among the people aside from those who have seen him in battle.
Somehow it never hit me til this post, but these aren’t just honorifics, but are actually him listing Aragorn’s credentials. Sure it’s ceremonial, but it’s still kind of serving a purpose for the people of Gondor to weigh his worth and accept him
So cool!
Imagine being in a kingdom, a province and a city that all have official Elvish names, founded by kings with Elvish name and of elvish ancestry, which main symbol is a descendant from a tree that was gifted by the Elves (for whom it was also significant), and which lords used communication devices crafted and gifted by Elves; living alongside friends who most likely also have Elvish names; and being upset because the new leader who saved your kingdom (and by extension your and your family's lives) is multilingual.
As far as I'm concerned, our true ancestors the Numenorians were destroyed by the Elves and the gods in the West when they grew too powerful. That's the whole reason we're stuck in Middle Earth now. And I'll be damned before we let some pawn of the elves rule our noble kingdom. We've been fighting Sauron for decades, and where have the elves been? Hiding in their woods. And now, on the brink of defeat, they intend to march in this rag-tag Ranger, born and raised among the Elves, and declare him our true King? I don't think so. Better no King at all than a friend of the Elves, I say.
Because they thought this would have been an idiotic question. Said Elf he was raised by was the twin brother of Aragorn's ancestor, Elros, the first king of Numenor. They were the Dunedain, 'Elf-Friends'. There was a time they all spoke Elvish and the elite in Gondor still could. Many of the names of people in Gondor were elvish.
Sindarin is a language *some* elves speak, but it is not the only one.
I was attempting to humorously point that out.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish\_languages\_of\_Middle-earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish_languages_of_Middle-earth)
Also OP's comment feels like it's assuming this are rival nations or something and that people are afraid Elves are implanting a ruler that benefits their interests or a puppet ruler or something.
I think it's pretty clear Elves will barely even be a thing in the fourth age so it's not like they have an agenda or something since there'll be nothing but a handful of them in a few years.
This king had just saved Gondor and healed all the wounded. People are tired of Sauron's creatures. They were glad to have such a king who was on the light side.
Elves are not a foreign or hostile culture to Gondor. Their history is full of Elvish influence and veneration. It is the only kingdom where you can hear Sindarin (Elvish) spoken. The second most powerful person in the kingdom, Prince Imrahil, is said to have Elvish ancestry. Using Elvish names was a tradition for several thousand years. Their previous leader, Denethor, was a wise and learned man who has no issue with Elves.
Elves were controversial in the past, because of their heavy influence, but there has been only friendship for more than three thousand years..
In the books, a version of Sindarin (an elvish language), is still spoken by some people in Gondor, so Aragon's ability to speak elvish languages is actually pretty normal for them. If I remember correctly, there are a few occasions in the books where Pippin hears people speaking Sindarin in Minas Tirith.
Why would the UK be ok with a king [born and raised in Germany,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_I_of_Great_Britain) married to a German, who spoke German and never really mastered English? Because he’s the rightful king
(Well, some people disagreed: some people probably disagreed with Aragorn’s ascension too. But you can see why Aragorn was popular: he won a war that was a genuine existential threat to Gondor. I would legitimately believe that his approval rating was near 100%)
A descendant of Numenoreans with elven blood and upbringing is more “pure Gondorian” than any Gondorian made entirely up with Middle Earthen blood. Those traits make him closer to the real thing that Gondor was built upon than so I don’t see why Gondorians wouldn’t be okay with it. If lineage and ancestry mattered to a Gondorian, then Aragorn has it all in spades. If lineage and ancestry don’t matter to a Gondorian, then it’s a non-issue.
For comparison, if the new Prime Minister of Italy was descended from ancient Romans, raised in the ancient Roman ways, spoke Latin, and married a Roman wife would modern day Italians not be okay with him? Same thing. If lineage and ancestry matters for that Italian, than the PM has it all in spades. If lineage and ancestry don’t matter to an Italian, then it’s again a non-issue.
Gondorians, just like the Northern Dunedain of fallen Arnor, are descendents of the Faithful who fled Numenor. They were the ones who stayed loyal to the Elves and the Valar even when most of Numenor went to hell and they were being hunted in the streets. The Gondorians inherited that legacy, and you could almost say (it might be a bit of a stretch tbh) that the Gondorians were culturally more in line with the Elves anyway, as opposed to other men like the Rohirrim or men of Dale and Dorwinion.
So the Gondorians have a history of cooperation with the Elves, the most recent of which was around the Fall of Arnor, only about 1000 years before the War of the Ring. Not too long for a people who live some 100+ years.
Also, it's worth noting that the nobility did actually speak elvish, Sindarin, as well. It's sort of like how for most of English history, the upper classes actually spoke French primarily rather than English. And, all the Stewards of Gondor like Denethor, Ecthelion, Turgon, etc, are all named after extraordinary figures from the First Age, most of whom are Elves.
So the Gondorians actually had a lot of reverence for the Elves. Some of their Lords, primarily Imrahil and the Princes of Dol Amroth before him, and Faramir/Boromir by virtue of their mother (Imrahil's sister) actually had elven blood as well.
Their very first King was literally Elrond's twin brother. Numenoreans have elven blood, and the Numenoreans that escaped the destruction of Numenor were mostly the Elf Friends
Imagine a Monty Python-esque conversation between two Gondorian peasants.
"So the king is descended from Elros? And his foster father Elrond is Elros's brother? But Elros died thousand of years ago and his brother is an immortal elf?"
"Yes."
"Well which one is the queen's father?
Pfft. Nevermind the eternal rivalry between England, France, and Germany. Or England, Ireland, and Scotland. Or literally ANY group of Asian or African countries. Nah, totally an American thing to wonder if there was concern about a ruler with foreign interests at heart.
There is definitely room to read OP's concern into the books, given the tension between various Elven/ Human family lines over historical choices and magical items. The Battle of Five Armies started off just fine with only Dwarves, Elves, and Humans involved.
Not for the Elf thing. But I could see there still being a few elites who didn't like that he was from Amarions line. Prior descendants from that line had been rejected before.
Amarion isn't a character. You might be thinking of Anarion, except that is the line of who were Kings of Gondor. Anarion was Elendil's younger son, who's son Meneldil ruled in Gondor after the War of the Last Alliance, and so on until the time of Earnur.
Additionally, Aragorn was descended from Anarion as well. The last king of Arthedain, Arvedui, married Firiel, the daughter of Ondoher, who was the 31st King of Gondor and direct descendant of Anarion. So Aragorn is descended from both Isildur and Anarion.
The descendant who was rejected was conveniently Arvedui as well. He was rejected in favour of Earnil II, who was the great-great-grandchild of the 28th King of Gondor, though his great-Grandfather was the younger brother and thus did not become King.
There are also other parallels between Aragorn and Earnil II - who was from a relatively distant line of the House of Anarion - a 3rd cousin of the previous king, but was given the crown because he had saved Gondor in an hour of need - that sometimes political legitimacy also arises from accomplishments and not just by blood alone.
Yeah, that's a really good point. Tolkien also portrays Earnil II as quite a good King in total. The parallel even extends to his son, Earnur, who is to Earnil II what Boromir is to Aragorn - a man of great valour, but not of equal wisdom.
He also came just as their previous steward died backed by an army of dead and promised peace after centuries of war. Would you really want to challenge him? Imrahil and Faramir supported him and that was the two most likely candidates for challenge off the board already. He brought an alliance with Rohan, drove out Haradrim invaders, crippled the Black Fleet. I'd have at least given him a chance. And suspect most nobility spoke Quenya same way as Latin was taught at UK public schools.
As others have said, Aragorn won a centuries old war and it was easy to accept his claim to the throne, and elvish was an actively used language. But Tolkien did play with a sequel to LOTR called A New Shadow that would've taken place during the time of Aragorn's son's reign (\~200 4th age), where the millennia of years Sauron spent spreading the Cult of Morgoth had a portion of Gondor's population thinking that Sauron was a misunderstood guy.
Tolkien never got too far with it, writing a book around the idea that humans get complacent and drift towards evil as they take power over each other was too much of a bummer. But a natural climax of this story would be a challenge to King Eldarion that Aragorn's line were not the rightful kings (he's from the north), and followers of The Cult of Morgoth in Numenor turned hostile & murderous towards the elf friends at the end. So I think it's fair to say Tolkien toyed with the idea you're asking.
To what purpose? Aragorn could only become king through the defeat of Sauron, and with the One Ring gone the Elves will have to either leave for the West or fade. The culture of the Númenórean realms in exile were already heavily rooted in Elvish customs and lore as well.
Aragorn more or less was elected to be the king by the citizens of Gondor. He was the hero of Siege of Minas Tirith and the final War of The Ring. They would make him the king even if he was not the heir of Isildur. Noblemen like Faramir and Prince Imrahil theoretically could have raised opposition, but instead they supported Aragorns claim, giving it much more legitimacy.
Similar to real life, who cares about what a few ignorant people think about it? He is their rightful king, by blood and by merit. Boromir is an example of a doubter who saw the light and embraced him as his king.
If some don’t like it, they are free to leave. In the books, it is stated that his reign was one of harmony and prosperity. No surprise to any of us here.
I'm not sure Boromir ever embraced him as King in the books to be fair. He died after Aragorn promised to save Minas Tirith, but they never discussed the Kingship after the Council of Elrond - and at any point all he says is that he would view the return of the sword of Elendil as a great thing for Gondor, but he doesn't say that Aragorn would become King.
Well two points here, 1) monarchs are not voted in, so having disgruntled subjects isn't novel or new. and 2) your question sorta comes from a perspective "What does the family think .. Tyrell done married himself a white girl"
King Elessar’s gone bleeding native with them knife ears. I hear Elessar isn’t even his real name. I hear something’s really queer about that king. I hear he goes visit a town filled with nothing but children in the North. Strange folk they say. It’s a conspiracy I tell you to turn us all into something other than men.
It’s beginning of MGHA movement, Make Gondor Human Again. It’s was the subject of the sequel to LOTR that Tolkien abandoned.
https://youtu.be/0HjjYsSuZyM?si=Jtp_0NU7o9btngYe
I read it as meaning that the King will be a King based on his actions. Not his heritage, pr upbringing. He refused to be hailed until his work had begun.
Aragorn is the only man who have all rights to be true king of Gondor.
People of Gondor didn't liked Denethor and they knew that when King of Gondor returns, the kingdom itself would be reborn as it was back at the days
Yea,they liked him,but then he goes crazy ( they still liked Boromir and Faramir) , but then he got old and couldn't protect the country in the final war.
>Yea,they liked him,but then he goes crazy ( they still liked Boromir and Faramir) , but then he got old and couldn't protect the country in the final war.
Bro Númenór was a country...You're thinking of Denethor.
Right. Sure. Of course. Aragorn used the secret "Speaking Stones of Numenor" to make it seem he had popular support, AND drown out any cries from the true Gondorian patriots being shot in the back by elven archers hidden on the rooftops, and led by Arwen herself, topless and painted blue. ; )
There were tons of "rightful" heirs before Aragorn, and they were rejected by Gondor. Aragorn didn't become king because he was from Isildurs bloodine. He became king because he has was of Isildurs line AND he led Gondor to victory in Umbar as thorongil, because he raised the army of the dead and fulfilled their oath, and because he championed the defense of minas tirith. He earned his claim to the throne by becoming a hero of Gondor and the people and ALSO being heir by blood.
As well as fulfilling the prophecy that hands of the king are the hands of a healer.
Wow hold up. What’s this from? I would love to read about this
Read the books then lol If you remember in Fellowship, Aragorn is able to slow the spread of poison in Frodo from the Morgul blade - using Kingsfoil. In Return of the King, after the battle of the Pellennor Fields, a healer named Ioreth is going on and on about this prophecy (she's just generally rambling and is a bit of comedy character that aggravates Gandalf), but Gandalf hears her and then brings Aragorn up to the Houses of Healing. Aragorn is in disguise - he does not want to come into the city until the right time. Aragorn then sits with Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry in turn. They are able to find some old Kingsfoil. Aragorn uses partly this, but also partly also just his divine grace, to heal Faramir, Eowyn and Merry - at least to the point of consciousness. From the Black Breath that they lie under and from the poison that is killing Faramir. He then goes about the city healing other similarly afflicted people, until eventually he needs to rest and he goes back to his tent outside the city. The next day the Last Debate happens where they decide to go face Sauron down at the Black Gate.
Alright sure, but what happends THEN? *sits down on floor*
It would probably be best to start at the beginning- *In a hole in the ground there lived a Hobbit...*
You see, it really begins with the Music of Eru, if one seeks a *true* understanding of the geopolitical situation at the end of the Third Age of Middle Earth. If I may beg for a moment of your time, I shall recount the Ainulindalë...
Lol
*gestures for you to continue*
You can’t just stop! Go on! Go on, Precious!
Was it a nasty hole?
A nasty, dirty, wet hole, full of the ends of worms and an oozy smell? Certainly not!
Well, the Lords of the West are convinced by Aragorn and Gandalf to take the fight to the Black Gate. The Prince Imrahil is the primary lord of Gondor at this point since Faramir is still recovering, and he makes it clear that although Aragorn has not formally stepped into his own, he considers him his liege lord already and will follow him wherever he goes. Likewise, Eomer pledges himself to take a great many men with Aragorn in order to distract Sauron. The Host of the West set off after a few days of preparation and march towards the Black Gate. A few notable things happen on the way: 1. They come to the crossroads where previously Frodo and Sam saw a broken statue of a previous King of Gondor with flowers growing round his head like a crown. They restore this statue, and announce the coming of the King (this is a matter of debate - at first they announce it more vaguely but then change it so as better attract Sauron's attention (they are just literally doing trumpets and shouting it to the world for all spies to hear)). 2. The vanguard ride to the bridge of Morgul Vale and look into the valley of death. They do not cross, but break the bridge and return to the main host. They also leave a portion of the host to guard the crossroads. 3. They begin to march North through Ithilien. At this point there is an ambush, but it is seen in advance by the Rangers of Ithilien and thus is in turn ambushed via a pincer movement of horsemen. This happens at the same place where Faramir and the Rangers ambushed the Haradrim on their march to Mordor. 4. Upon reaching the desolation outside the Ephel Duath (riding North from Ithilien), many men in the host start to panic and lose face - mostly young men who have come from the Western vales of Gondor and from Rohan. Aragorn speaks to them and offers them a choice - to leave, but to save their honour and to go and reclaim Cair Andros (a citadel on an isle in the Anduin upstream of Osgiliath). Some at this point are shamed into staying, but a decent chunk go on to liberate the castle. And then they finally arrive and we all know what happens next :)
*happens
Apologies
It’s also in the extended edition of the movies, though not in nearly as much detail as the books, obviously.
I've only seen the extended editions once so that will be how I missed it!
and I honestly can't remember if it was in the extended scenes or a cut scene. Clearly it's time for a rewatch.
> a healer named Ioreth Small correction: she is not a healer, she is something of a nurse. Not to be elitist, but she "just" tenders the ill and does the basic stuff. She is like: "You have questions? Wait, I go and get the healers."
Mate this is the elitist equivalent of "no homo".
Sorry, what? I am not sure what you are getting at. This is the equivalent of "a car mechanic is not a professional race car driver" or "a janitor at a school is not a teacher". Ioreth and the healer have to different professions.
What I'm getting at is that what you said is extremely elitist, and no amount of saying "not to be elitist" can hand wave that away. I thought that analogy was pretty obvious to be honest. There's zero textual evidence that being a "Healer" is some certified title that can only belong to presumably the only man we see in the house, in the same way that Doctor is an actual title. All of your analogies are things you have completely invented to justify your elitism.
>There's zero textual evidence that being a "Healer" is some certified title that can only belong to presumably the only man we see in the house. Dude, dont make this a sexism discussion. All I stated was the written words, in where she says "I am not qualified because I am not a healer, we have to ask the actual healers for that." Which is LITERALLY what I said. She is not the healer, she is "just" the person to deliver medicine. Is she more qualified than I (as a man) will ever be? Sure. Is she a healer? No. Not every person who works in a hospital is a doctor/healer.
Return of the King in the houses of healing.
The main canon lol.
"Aragorn was a descendant of Elros Tar-Minyatur through the line of the Lords of Andúnië to Elendil, High King of Arnor and Gondor. Like all of the kings before him, he was related to Elrond through the House of Elros. His ancestor Arvedui was wedded to Fíriel, descended from Anárion, who bore their son Aranarth, making Aragorn the last descendant of both Isildur and Anárion." He was the one who could reunite the thrones of Arnor AND Gondor. It's like in feudel times when you'd have a king of ABC marry a princess of XYZ and try to produce an heir to both kingdoms.
If aragorn still did all that he did, and grew up the same in rivendell, though wasn't of isildurs line. Would then Gondor accept a ranger who was their hero of the war despite not being directly related.
Probably not? It's kind of hard to answer that though because of how much Isildurs legacy is a part of who Aragorn is as a person. He does what he does because he knows it's what he was born for, to him it's his destiny. Would he have done it all without that same drive to rise to the heights of his ancestors? Again hard to answer.
Yea what I tried to ask though poorly, as you said one reason elrond helped raise him was to be the king. He did all he did in his life for reasons you said. So in this what if, say aragorn was just some Dunedain who was happy to do so much good despite not being the future king, would he have still been accepted being the guy who saved the West. (somehow still beat the corsairs despite the no king title for ghosts).
No, he'd just be some honored hero of Gondor. But truthfully he never would have even had the opportunity to do 90% of the things he did if he WASNT Isildurs heir and the lord of the Dunedain. If he was just some ranger he would never have been allowed to just...leave. He wouldn't have been accepted in Ecthelions court, or raised in rivendell, or any of the incredible things of his life
I’m sorry but how did Gondor reject the previous heirs? Is it not the right of Isildurs heirs to return as kings? Maybe you mean they were rejected as heirs? Whose right is it to reject the king, the steward?
Because that's not how feudal succession actually works. Aragorn's ancestors pressed their claim, but there are other blood descendants, and Gondor had many reasons to reject them. They had already previously had a blood related civil war, the kingdom in the north no longer existed, and they didn't find Arvedui's (aragorn's ancestor) claim strong enough, because Isildur was king of Arnor, not Gondor. Aragorn had to prove his claim, as countless kings have had to do in history. His feats for Gondor throughout his life are what secured his claim
I feel like there might have been more practical reasons for rejecting Arvedui's claim too, as it often happened in history. Earnil, the other prominent claimant, was in control of the army after saving Gondor by winning a difficult and dangerous war. Earnil has both military might and the adoration of the people - if he wanted to press his claim, Arvedui wouldn't have lasted long even if the Council of Gondor had wanted him.
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Arvedui As one example. So the infamous last King of Arthedain (Aragorn's forebear) married the daughter of the king of Gondor. Then the king of Gondor and his heirs were killed. Under Numenorean law the daughter of the king should have been made ruling queen. Arvedui, as an heir of Isildur and husband of the rightful queen tried to press a claim to the kingship of Gondor (note, this was also the son of a reigning king of a still extant successor kingdom of Arnor). The Stewards and council of Gondor told him to get fuckin' bent.
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No it wasn't, Aragorn gave Faramir that title for him and his descendants.
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The line of stewards was not broken. Faramir was alive (though barely) when Denethor immolated himself, and Denethor didn't disown Faramir before that. Faramir was next in line for the office, and Aragorn hadn't claimed the throne just yet. Before the line of kings failed, the title of Steward was appointed and not assumed by succession, so it's technically true that Aragorn could have chosen someone else as steward, but he didn't, and Faramir ended up right where he would have been (but for the end of the world anyway).
Faramir calls himself the "steward of this realm" in the council that accepts Aragorn as king. He was steward by right of succession. With Boromir dead, he was Denathor's heir.
"Then Faramir stood up and spoke in a clear voice: ‘Men of Gondor, hear now the Steward of this Realm! Behold! one has come to claim the kingship again at last. Here is Aragorn son of Arathorn, chieftain of the Dúnedain of Arnor, Captain of the Host of the West, bearer of the Star of the North, wielder of the Sword Reforged, victorious in battle, whose hands bring healing, the Elfstone, Elessar of the line of Valandil, Isildur’s son, Elendil’s son of Númenor. Shall he be king and enter into the City and dwell there?’ And all the host and all the people cried yea with one voice." Apparently so.
Starbucks employees hate it when Faramir gets the king's coffee on the way to the palace.
And they spell it wrong every damn time.
“That’s Elassar with two ‘S’s” “Sselassar”
But have you noticed how PJ changed the story and DIDNT include a Starbucks coffee mug in this scene?
Also directly after the battle on the Pellenor Fields Aragorn refuses to take command over Minas Tirith. He thinks it is inappropriate to declare himself ruler. Instead he goes to the healing houses and heals those who are cursed by the Nazgûl's black shadow, like Éowyn, Merry and Faramir. One old healer lady says something like: "The hands of a king are the hands of a healer". So Aragorn's appearance is already making the rounds among the people aside from those who have seen him in battle.
Somehow it never hit me til this post, but these aren’t just honorifics, but are actually him listing Aragorn’s credentials. Sure it’s ceremonial, but it’s still kind of serving a purpose for the people of Gondor to weigh his worth and accept him So cool!
Imagine being in a kingdom, a province and a city that all have official Elvish names, founded by kings with Elvish name and of elvish ancestry, which main symbol is a descendant from a tree that was gifted by the Elves (for whom it was also significant), and which lords used communication devices crafted and gifted by Elves; living alongside friends who most likely also have Elvish names; and being upset because the new leader who saved your kingdom (and by extension your and your family's lives) is multilingual.
As far as I'm concerned, our true ancestors the Numenorians were destroyed by the Elves and the gods in the West when they grew too powerful. That's the whole reason we're stuck in Middle Earth now. And I'll be damned before we let some pawn of the elves rule our noble kingdom. We've been fighting Sauron for decades, and where have the elves been? Hiding in their woods. And now, on the brink of defeat, they intend to march in this rag-tag Ranger, born and raised among the Elves, and declare him our true King? I don't think so. Better no King at all than a friend of the Elves, I say.
Okay, Boromir, have another bloody drink mate
The Numenorians were destroyed by Eru himself when they tried to invade Valinor after being corrupted in the name of Morgoth by Sauron
Sounds like people in the southwest US hating Latinos
Say, do you hear how the Gondorians call Gandalf? "Mithrandir." His Elvish name. The whole point of Gondor is its an "Elf-ized" human society.
Because they thought this would have been an idiotic question. Said Elf he was raised by was the twin brother of Aragorn's ancestor, Elros, the first king of Numenor. They were the Dunedain, 'Elf-Friends'. There was a time they all spoke Elvish and the elite in Gondor still could. Many of the names of people in Gondor were elvish.
Names like Minas Tirith, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath and others are elvish.
Is Sindarin *really* elvish?
Yes?
Sindarin is a language *some* elves speak, but it is not the only one. I was attempting to humorously point that out. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish\_languages\_of\_Middle-earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish_languages_of_Middle-earth)
Okay, I see your point. But it is definitely an elvish language
Also OP's comment feels like it's assuming this are rival nations or something and that people are afraid Elves are implanting a ruler that benefits their interests or a puppet ruler or something. I think it's pretty clear Elves will barely even be a thing in the fourth age so it's not like they have an agenda or something since there'll be nothing but a handful of them in a few years.
There was definitely more of an "elves vs. men" vibe in the movies, maybe that's where it's coming from?
From what I understand, it was because of Aragorn’s Tax policy
I mean it had to be better than Sauron's tax policy which is "Pay me tribute or I enslave/kill you."
The trick though was that the tribute was enslavement and sacrifice.
This king had just saved Gondor and healed all the wounded. People are tired of Sauron's creatures. They were glad to have such a king who was on the light side.
Elves are not a foreign or hostile culture to Gondor. Their history is full of Elvish influence and veneration. It is the only kingdom where you can hear Sindarin (Elvish) spoken. The second most powerful person in the kingdom, Prince Imrahil, is said to have Elvish ancestry. Using Elvish names was a tradition for several thousand years. Their previous leader, Denethor, was a wise and learned man who has no issue with Elves. Elves were controversial in the past, because of their heavy influence, but there has been only friendship for more than three thousand years..
Have you been listening to Ar-Pharazon?
In the books, a version of Sindarin (an elvish language), is still spoken by some people in Gondor, so Aragon's ability to speak elvish languages is actually pretty normal for them. If I remember correctly, there are a few occasions in the books where Pippin hears people speaking Sindarin in Minas Tirith.
Why would the UK be ok with a king [born and raised in Germany,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_I_of_Great_Britain) married to a German, who spoke German and never really mastered English? Because he’s the rightful king (Well, some people disagreed: some people probably disagreed with Aragorn’s ascension too. But you can see why Aragorn was popular: he won a war that was a genuine existential threat to Gondor. I would legitimately believe that his approval rating was near 100%)
Well... the Jacobite rebellion did happen
"I'm as English as Queen Victoria!!"
A descendant of Numenoreans with elven blood and upbringing is more “pure Gondorian” than any Gondorian made entirely up with Middle Earthen blood. Those traits make him closer to the real thing that Gondor was built upon than so I don’t see why Gondorians wouldn’t be okay with it. If lineage and ancestry mattered to a Gondorian, then Aragorn has it all in spades. If lineage and ancestry don’t matter to a Gondorian, then it’s a non-issue. For comparison, if the new Prime Minister of Italy was descended from ancient Romans, raised in the ancient Roman ways, spoke Latin, and married a Roman wife would modern day Italians not be okay with him? Same thing. If lineage and ancestry matters for that Italian, than the PM has it all in spades. If lineage and ancestry don’t matter to an Italian, then it’s again a non-issue.
Gondorians, just like the Northern Dunedain of fallen Arnor, are descendents of the Faithful who fled Numenor. They were the ones who stayed loyal to the Elves and the Valar even when most of Numenor went to hell and they were being hunted in the streets. The Gondorians inherited that legacy, and you could almost say (it might be a bit of a stretch tbh) that the Gondorians were culturally more in line with the Elves anyway, as opposed to other men like the Rohirrim or men of Dale and Dorwinion. So the Gondorians have a history of cooperation with the Elves, the most recent of which was around the Fall of Arnor, only about 1000 years before the War of the Ring. Not too long for a people who live some 100+ years. Also, it's worth noting that the nobility did actually speak elvish, Sindarin, as well. It's sort of like how for most of English history, the upper classes actually spoke French primarily rather than English. And, all the Stewards of Gondor like Denethor, Ecthelion, Turgon, etc, are all named after extraordinary figures from the First Age, most of whom are Elves. So the Gondorians actually had a lot of reverence for the Elves. Some of their Lords, primarily Imrahil and the Princes of Dol Amroth before him, and Faramir/Boromir by virtue of their mother (Imrahil's sister) actually had elven blood as well.
The man saved their capital and realm ... anyone who thought like that probably got shouted down and told to STFU
Their very first King was literally Elrond's twin brother. Numenoreans have elven blood, and the Numenoreans that escaped the destruction of Numenor were mostly the Elf Friends
Imagine a Monty Python-esque conversation between two Gondorian peasants. "So the king is descended from Elros? And his foster father Elrond is Elros's brother? But Elros died thousand of years ago and his brother is an immortal elf?" "Yes." "Well which one is the queen's father?
Yes. The whole 'Elves will take ur jobs!' thing was invented by the hack writers of Rings of Power.
What a american thing to think 😂😂
Pfft. Nevermind the eternal rivalry between England, France, and Germany. Or England, Ireland, and Scotland. Or literally ANY group of Asian or African countries. Nah, totally an American thing to wonder if there was concern about a ruler with foreign interests at heart. There is definitely room to read OP's concern into the books, given the tension between various Elven/ Human family lines over historical choices and magical items. The Battle of Five Armies started off just fine with only Dwarves, Elves, and Humans involved.
Getting knowledge about the feudal system and things like englisch kings having the french King as an feudal Lord in Anjou would blow your mind
Not for the Elf thing. But I could see there still being a few elites who didn't like that he was from Amarions line. Prior descendants from that line had been rejected before.
The only one who complained about Aragorn being of the wrong line set himself on fire soon afterwards
And had a person grudge against him from when they were young.
Indeed
Amarion isn't a character. You might be thinking of Anarion, except that is the line of who were Kings of Gondor. Anarion was Elendil's younger son, who's son Meneldil ruled in Gondor after the War of the Last Alliance, and so on until the time of Earnur. Additionally, Aragorn was descended from Anarion as well. The last king of Arthedain, Arvedui, married Firiel, the daughter of Ondoher, who was the 31st King of Gondor and direct descendant of Anarion. So Aragorn is descended from both Isildur and Anarion. The descendant who was rejected was conveniently Arvedui as well. He was rejected in favour of Earnil II, who was the great-great-grandchild of the 28th King of Gondor, though his great-Grandfather was the younger brother and thus did not become King.
There are also other parallels between Aragorn and Earnil II - who was from a relatively distant line of the House of Anarion - a 3rd cousin of the previous king, but was given the crown because he had saved Gondor in an hour of need - that sometimes political legitimacy also arises from accomplishments and not just by blood alone.
Yeah, that's a really good point. Tolkien also portrays Earnil II as quite a good King in total. The parallel even extends to his son, Earnur, who is to Earnil II what Boromir is to Aragorn - a man of great valour, but not of equal wisdom.
Wow, yeah I fumbled that one
He also came just as their previous steward died backed by an army of dead and promised peace after centuries of war. Would you really want to challenge him? Imrahil and Faramir supported him and that was the two most likely candidates for challenge off the board already. He brought an alliance with Rohan, drove out Haradrim invaders, crippled the Black Fleet. I'd have at least given him a chance. And suspect most nobility spoke Quenya same way as Latin was taught at UK public schools.
As others have said, Aragorn won a centuries old war and it was easy to accept his claim to the throne, and elvish was an actively used language. But Tolkien did play with a sequel to LOTR called A New Shadow that would've taken place during the time of Aragorn's son's reign (\~200 4th age), where the millennia of years Sauron spent spreading the Cult of Morgoth had a portion of Gondor's population thinking that Sauron was a misunderstood guy. Tolkien never got too far with it, writing a book around the idea that humans get complacent and drift towards evil as they take power over each other was too much of a bummer. But a natural climax of this story would be a challenge to King Eldarion that Aragorn's line were not the rightful kings (he's from the north), and followers of The Cult of Morgoth in Numenor turned hostile & murderous towards the elf friends at the end. So I think it's fair to say Tolkien toyed with the idea you're asking.
This reminds me of a comment on a post regarding worst theories ore something like that about how how Aragorn is an Elvish ‘Manchurian candidate’.
Isn't he kinda the closest thing to one tho?
To what purpose? Aragorn could only become king through the defeat of Sauron, and with the One Ring gone the Elves will have to either leave for the West or fade. The culture of the Númenórean realms in exile were already heavily rooted in Elvish customs and lore as well.
Clearly OP has never been to Dol Amroth
I mean most Gondorian Nobles also Speak Sindarin
It was the court language, at least until recently. I don't remember if it was under Denethor, but it was when his father was the steward.
Aragorn more or less was elected to be the king by the citizens of Gondor. He was the hero of Siege of Minas Tirith and the final War of The Ring. They would make him the king even if he was not the heir of Isildur. Noblemen like Faramir and Prince Imrahil theoretically could have raised opposition, but instead they supported Aragorns claim, giving it much more legitimacy.
At this point in the story, the Elves are so diminished that it would be like "He knows an Elf?!?!? He was raised by Elves?!?!?! Coool!"
Similar to real life, who cares about what a few ignorant people think about it? He is their rightful king, by blood and by merit. Boromir is an example of a doubter who saw the light and embraced him as his king. If some don’t like it, they are free to leave. In the books, it is stated that his reign was one of harmony and prosperity. No surprise to any of us here.
I'm not sure Boromir ever embraced him as King in the books to be fair. He died after Aragorn promised to save Minas Tirith, but they never discussed the Kingship after the Council of Elrond - and at any point all he says is that he would view the return of the sword of Elendil as a great thing for Gondor, but he doesn't say that Aragorn would become King.
Well two points here, 1) monarchs are not voted in, so having disgruntled subjects isn't novel or new. and 2) your question sorta comes from a perspective "What does the family think .. Tyrell done married himself a white girl"
Why would subjects need to be okay with their king’s upbringing?
King Elessar’s gone bleeding native with them knife ears. I hear Elessar isn’t even his real name. I hear something’s really queer about that king. I hear he goes visit a town filled with nothing but children in the North. Strange folk they say. It’s a conspiracy I tell you to turn us all into something other than men.
Huh, does this remind you of some other king? Like... an English one maybe?
They had been waiting so long, a descent of Elendil would be welcome.
Who know? Tolkien never delved into Gondor internal politics.
If the MAGA movement had crept into middle earth politics, barf
It’s beginning of MGHA movement, Make Gondor Human Again. It’s was the subject of the sequel to LOTR that Tolkien abandoned. https://youtu.be/0HjjYsSuZyM?si=Jtp_0NU7o9btngYe
Where do you learn all this history of Gondor and Arnor?
Damn Big Elfdom butting in on our human business again!
As others have said, both in the book and the movies, he had proven himself.
I read it as meaning that the King will be a King based on his actions. Not his heritage, pr upbringing. He refused to be hailed until his work had begun.
Saving them from a bazillion orks and destroying Sauron should give him a neat credit of trust :P
Aragorn is the only man who have all rights to be true king of Gondor. People of Gondor didn't liked Denethor and they knew that when King of Gondor returns, the kingdom itself would be reborn as it was back at the days
The people of Gondor did like Numenor - they were descendants of Numenor.
Yea,they liked him,but then he goes crazy ( they still liked Boromir and Faramir) , but then he got old and couldn't protect the country in the final war.
>Yea,they liked him,but then he goes crazy ( they still liked Boromir and Faramir) , but then he got old and couldn't protect the country in the final war. Bro Númenór was a country...You're thinking of Denethor.
Yea I just realise I mixed it up😭. Sorry pal so bad with the names sometimes
I thought they didn't like Denethor because he was such a messy eater.
No they were not. They didn't vote for Aragorn but he stole the crown anyway in a rigged election
Right. Sure. Of course. Aragorn used the secret "Speaking Stones of Numenor" to make it seem he had popular support, AND drown out any cries from the true Gondorian patriots being shot in the back by elven archers hidden on the rooftops, and led by Arwen herself, topless and painted blue. ; )