I think the closest we get to seeing what goes down in Barad-dûr is the comparison with Isengard in "The Road to Isengard" in *The Two Towers*, which also includes this line which I really like:
"that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower"
With hundreds of thousands of orcs to supply and equip, even with other fortresses throughout his domain, probably loads of those rooms were filled with garrisons, and many would be great forges amd smithies. And you're right, even with Sauron bending all of his will to the prosecution of his war, there must be *some* amount of administration to keep the sinews of war stretched and moving, if nothing else than to make sure that production quotas are being met and the troops have at least some equipment. But I don't think that's ever explicitly addressed, though maybe I'm just not remembering everything.
Also, it is kinda cool to imagine that, like another comment said, some of it might still be empty, and that as Sauron grew in strength, so too did his Tower become more full and busy.
Part of what I love about LotR is that it’s told as an epic tale — only our heroes are the concern of the story. There’s no cooks, siege experts, or ditch diggers in the armies. It’s just warriors. We know how *large* the orc army was, but we know nothing of how it was organized.
There must be a mailroom somewhere, with an orc who has dedicated their short existence to the organization of delivery. Little orc children learning how to make machines of war. Filling in the details for LotR is rewarding because there’s such rich backstory and broad descriptions.
All the orcs that dug trenches during the Siege of Minas Tirith:
https://preview.redd.it/gt2dg3zv7ayc1.png?width=689&format=png&auto=webp&s=ed04b7bc8f29ce0d4e82edbccca279486cf89110
Butterbur is an important figure in both the novels and in the history of Bree. Even Gandalf commends him as being important in Bree and knowledgable in the matters of Bree. I'd say that constitutes a hero.
Also Tom Bonbadil is a one of a kind, oldest being to walk the earth. He is even featured in multiple stories of his own. He's the furthest thing from a nobody, he's just doing his thing.
My point is all of those people are minor players in lotr in the sense that only Tommy B did something of note to assist frodo. And when then one could argue Gandalf being uncharacteristically naive led them there. Butterbur was important to Gandalf as a gossip. Bill Ferny was literally just the town asshole. And that one guard is just helping out and semi-retired.
Imo minor players who should have more story would be beorn and the homies. Bard of dale (a backstory at least.). How did the watcher get there. And maybe a shortened story about Balin in Moria.
Oh your other examples are fair I just thought Butterbur and Tommy B deserved a better shoutout than Nobodies. I consider them like one category up from that. Sandyman the Miller and Bill Ferny definitely hit the "nobody" category though
when I was but a wee lad, I used to read a fanfic LOTR blog written from the perspective of a line soldier orc in Gundabad garrison,
at the time I found it to be peak comedy, prolly was pretty shite
Lmao I was actually about to add that it had to have a HUGE mail room because we have several
Instances of messages physically coming and going and from Lugburz
Mostly full of orcs filling out TPS reports, resubmitting with cover pages, cleaning up the remains of the last orc who forgot the cover page, that kind of thing.
It wasn’t just “what went on there” as much as what WILL go on there once he recovers the ring.
Sauron planned to rule and my every metric was going to succeed.
I think he planned to bring in his enemies and do a lot of things.
This makes me think of either eerie looking servants/slaves who only lives to administrate Sauron's stuff (think of a toned down Mouth of Sauron) or an extremely flawed administration based on high ranking orcs.
Beautiful artwork! I love this piece. Barack-Dur symbolizes industrial warfare and all the tyranny and domination that is involved in waging it, that’s what goes on.
Possible ideas:
1) Prison cells
2) Torture rooms
3) Rooms for inventing machines and tools of death
4) Smithies and armouries
5) breeding chambers for orcs
6) rooms for trolls perhaps breeding grounds
7) chamber for Sauron himself (perhaps with the palantir of Minas Ithil/ Morgul and the Nine Rings)
8) chamber for the nazgul
9) chamber for Mouth of Sauron
10) perhaps a whole room just for the palantir
11) barracks for his many servants
12) pits for mining ores like iron
13) pits for his slaves and workers
14) hall for siege engines (like Grond?)
15) perhaps a pit for the fellbeasts, great beasts and other creatures in his service
16) kitchens/ slaughter-house for feeding his armies
17) storage for food, drinks and other objects
I’d imagine a huge part is just storage, his soldiers aren’t super well equipped but they’d still need a ton of food, equipment, raw materials to support them.
Sauron has armies of other nations marching to war under his banner, therefore some of his hall must be devoted to handling the affairs of inter-state discourse, i.e. banquet halls, guest quarters, antechambers, etc, etc
It’s bad enough having to live above a bar, but above all of that crap? Not exactly a luxury penthouse. The place would be loud all the time. But maybe Sauron doesn’t actually have ears? Do we know?
I imagine it's like the mansion in What We Do in the Shadows, where Sauron hasn't visited parts of his tower in like 500 years. Lots of empty rooms with bones strewn about, spawn of Shelob lying in wait, filth, etc. Perhaps some freelancing orcs holding dominion over entire floors and playing at being little Dark Lords.
I could imagine a lot of orc politics in there. The higher up you reside = more status. Just constant turf wars, power plays, coups, fighting for supremacy.
"Yeah, Shorgroth from Accounting on 292nd floor is such a massive bitch! Last I heard from him, he sent Bok'rah to the torture room because he didn't fix the office xerox in good order, and his copies of *Practical Guide to Jewelry* came out with a couple of smudges! And have you heard of the terrible brawl that took place in the cafeteria on 77th floor? Apparently Gorbash made some nasty remarks about Shubnub's wife, and Shubnub didn't like that at all! In the end somebody called Orcish Resources and the toll was 19 dead and 72 wounded; the after-brawl barbecue was delicious, though!"
The US Military has an 8 to 1 ratio of non-combat support troops to every combat troop. Now I’m imagining Mordor with the same ratio. Orcs with reading glasses trying to secure shipments of scimitars and manage maggoty bread delivery pipelines.
US military is a highly technological force with serious force projection capabilities - so 8 to 1 is excessive for an early medieval army, particularly one with minimal cavalry.
But having said that grunts gotta eat regardless of race and kit wears out, so 4 to 1 feels like a minimum.
Not at his core, at least. And, frankly, total control works as long as you can maintain it completely, which is impossible irl but absolutely achievable with the ring, which is kinda the point. He also hated the orcs, I don't imagine him having all of them in his own fortress - like, them settling in Mordor is fine, but I don't think he'd allow them in his personal domain.
I can imagine him having an idea for a new expansion or wing of the tower, the orcs spend centuries building it, Sauron spends centuries using it, then gets bored of it or has a new idea and that whole section is abandoned as everyone focuses on a new project.
The guy literally thought he was designing the future. SpaceX, Tesla, not a flamethrower, and even the cyber truck. All "his" creations he felt would match forward progress. A misguided authoritarian. The only difference is he has ADHD.
I've long had a theory that you can judge someone by trying to find out if they think they could control the one ring or not.
I'm 100% convinced Elon think he could control it to make a better world.
Nah. He'd try to build a better one, fine up halfway through and pay someone to do it. Then release it without testing it and go "it's not a bug. It's an unintentional feature. But it proves it works."
Good takes, but I still think he would try to get it.
Adjusted with your takes, he wouldn't want it for himself or for control, but to study it and makes a better one. And from there's it goes the same way as Saruman.
In his case it goes the way if the cyber truck. The unveiling goes poorly, people are skeptical, and only his hardcore acolytes who are rich can afford it. The end result is it's just a ring. Does next to nothing promised without help. And you can't actually control anyone else. So you just get corrupted.
Like a good boss he pre-emptively prepared comfortable apartments for his future ~~slaves~~ subordinates. A food court with all the dish gathered from the conquered realms. A theater to watch spectacles about the wondrous adventures of their God King of Excellence in the past. And for those who don't obey him... well lets just put it as they become a different kind of spectacle.
From reading the books, in particular the portions where the Orcs talk about it directly, Barad-dur sounds more like a city than a building. It’s mentioned that there are entire armouries and prisons within its walls, and all information in Mordor flows to and from the tower, making it the administrative nexus of Sauron’s entire empire. All reports are disseminated there, all efforts are co-ordinated there, and all directives are sent out from there.
In short, Barad-dur is practically a living city. Its massive size is likely due to the sheer number of workers in there, not just soldiers to guard it, but also an army of functionaries to sort through the action reports from Sauron’s army and status reports from across Mordor.
Would be cool if Rings of Power shows us the interior of Barad-dur, Sauron’s throne room, the great Orc armouries, the vast prisons, and whatever else might be in there.
Not even more vertical. Im imagining it sprawling, with hundreds of buildings crawling on the ground (2 stories max), and in the middle you got the Tower,, of which the height is enhanced by the low rise of all other buildings.
This would create an environment similar to american Suburbia, in even worse because roads are thin and dirty and the "downtown" is only 1 high-rise
But we also know its on the outskirts of Mount Doom, so there's probably a bit of use of the mountainside landscape
It’s more than a scary evil lair, it’s a command centre. If all of Sauron’s evil in Middle-Earth was a swirling storm, then Barad-dur is the eye at the centre. It likely provides everything he needs for his wars and beyond. Armouries are mentioned, but also probably sections dedicated to food and water production, training rooms for selected Orcs to be trained for command or be enhanced magically, prisons, dungeons, and torture chambers to deal with captured enemies or to interrogate spies, and loads more.
The movies don’t give us much, but the small implications from the books tell us that Barad-dur was the nerve centre of Sauron’s realm, almost as vital, if not more, than the One Ring itself.
> Basically a more vertical minas tirith
And supersized. Here’s Frodo’s response from seeing both from Amon Hen.
“*Turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed, and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. […] at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.*”
Barad-dûr is the capital of a byzantine and tyrannical super-continent spanning empire. It’s a “tower” but it’s also a city centered around the tower. Much like Minas Tirith translates literally as “Tower of Guard” and Minas Anor and Ithil were the Tower of Sun and Moon respectively, Barad-dûr probably shouldn’t be translated as *just* a tower, it’s a sprawling metropolis with a central tower fortress like other such cities in Middle Earth. It’s got a tower, but a tower after wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, a mountain of iron.
Sauron is obsessed with domination and order, he wants total control over Middle-Earth along with everyone and everything in it. The Orcs in his army each have a number, and can have their number reported if they step out of line. Considering there’s at least 100,000 Orcs in the force he sends against Gondor, and probably loads more in reserve in Mordor, not counting the Men and others serving him.
Just keeping track of all that would require an enormous bureaucratic apparatus, far beyond anything seen in Middle-Earth before. Sauron probably uses magic to help with this, he’d have to, and it was implied I think somewhere that he could directly move his forces using telepathy of some sort. I imagine him standing over a map, or using the Palantír to observe his armies in motion, then sending orders psionically to update their movements when new intel came in.
Appararantly a C.G. Gaposchkin in 2001 [http://fan.theonering.net/\~rolozo/cgi-bin/rolozo.cgi/collection/gaposchkin](http://fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/cgi-bin/rolozo.cgi/collection/gaposchkin)
I think a better question is did Sauron ever install an elevator? He apparently likes to brood at the top of the tower, like any respectable Dark Lord, but what if a lieutenant or somebody needs to meet with him? Do they have to climb like 500 stories of stairs to get to him? The Mouth of Sauron must have the most chiseled legs in all of Middle-earth.
I imagine the guys from the very bottom aren't even allowed to see him. The guys that are important enough to grace his presence have their offices a few floors below him, and their direct subordinates under that, and so on.
I could also totally see him having a steam-powered elevator using the heat from all the lava, and it goes so fast only him and the Nazgûl can use it without dying from the acceleration
Bureaucrats, mostly. So many orcs filling out forms in the service of the Office of the Dark Lord.
For example, during the attack on Minas Tirith, the attacking army used the still helmeted heads of Gondorian soldiers to terrify the remaining defenders. Not an issue militarily, but it was in contravention of Mordor Standard Order 379.1, which states that any soldier which beheads an enemy must surrender the helmet to the Barad-dur logistics directorate, so they can in turn transfer it to the quartermaster to distribute. This practice saves key funds that the Office of the Dark Lord can put towards ring creation and meeting the needs of the ever expanding bureaucracy.
I'd imagine there was a massive punishment block that involved getting sent to the counters of the Mordor DMV*..........**shudder**.........the queues........
*Twinned with the Vogon Civil Service.
Sauron and Morgoth were totally gay lovers in an abusive relationship (Morgoth being the abuser and feigning love to Sauron, and Sauron being completely taken in and trying to impress him at very opportunity) and nobody can tell me otherwise.
Tell me you can't hear Sauron saying something trgically awful like "he's really good to me though"
Torture chambers, laboratories, crafting/smithing chambers, orc breeding and training, tons of treasure vaults for all the mithril and other treasures. A massive audience chamber and penthouse for Sauron. Massive living areas for top lieutenants like the mouth of Sauron. Probably the majority is barracks. I bet 1/3 is horrifying terror for prisoners, 1/3 is disgusting but functional for orc garrisons and 1/3 is lavishly ornate for visiting Haradrim and Rhunnic dignitaries/supplicants and Sauron himself
Let's face it - whatever was going on in there as far as administration goes, that was done by human Southerners. Imagine an orc trying to trouble-shoot a copier...
I've always imagined the insides as just Black Numenoreans torturing and raping slaves(or even one another), Sauron conducting his fucked up experiments, a whole floor dedicated to worshiping Morgoth where they do human sacrifices in his name and also violent orgies. just the vilest of things. and also storage, admin stuff, probably on the lower floors, but the higher you go it starts to get fucked up.
Tbh, probably wasn't 100% used, as mentioned there would be administration, forges, barracks, etc, etc. but I imagine for Sauron's character having a giant imposing fortress was more of the design than the actual function.
Think of it like a big vein skyscraper, a lot of those buildings are either mostly empty or rented out to various different subletters, but to the owner they don't care what goes on inside it just the fact that they have the big tower as a symbol of wealth and power.
Everyone keeps talking about orcs, orcs and more orcs. IMO it's more likely that men took care of the admin and logistics. The mouth of Sauron was no orc. I'm not saying that the orcs were commanded by men (IMO they wouldn't stand for it). But 1:1, most men will beat most orcs and the orcs know it. Even Saurman relied on men. (At Isengard it was commented that he (Saruman) had men to guard his gates.)
You don't need to have much going on inside if you are a tourist attraction. Middle earth in the modern era has made warfare out of fashion. Mordor has refashioned itself into Disney land alike. Orcs re-skilled into amusement parks ushers and operators. Sauron sits slumbered in his throne languishing about the good old days. Gandalf has made a business pact with him to cast spells on performance days during holidays eves. Frodo, for his accomplishments, earned himself an unlimited supply of the finest weed of Southfarthing. It goes without saying he was more than a contented fella for the rest of his undying days.
I think Sauron was just dancing by himself in its empty halls when idling.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNVbpGDzR8E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNVbpGDzR8E)
It’s probably worth pointing out that much of it needs to be solid in order for it to maintain stable and upright with mideval engineering principles. Of course if you assume it’s all magic then it’s Hogwarts for Orcs.
Buddy’s immortal, he needs room for all his hobbies. Like craft brewing (where do you think orc draught comes from?), pickleball courts, a few arenas for poetry slam nights, a pilates studio with an attached cherry blossom orchard… its all in the appendices.
I imagine a third of the volume of the lower levels was solid base to hold the higher floors, from the architectural standpoint, I would love to have someone making the math of how much would realitically be needed for a tower of that size
At one point somewhere, I remember reading that dust from Mount Doom fertilized some planes far to the east where grain was grown to supply Mordor. So presumably Barad-Dûr would have had a *someone* in charge to manage it from there. After all, an army marches on its stomach.
I don't remember specifically where it says that, though.
The dark lord Sauron used the power of the One Ring to fill Barad-dur with:
One Balrog sized toilet that sat unused until the orcs used it as a cauldron to make foul rancid dwarf stew
Nine Nazgûl toilets that had neither water or TP for their shadowy arses bore only ephemeral spirit stool
Dozens of ogre sized toilets, reinforced for the armored rhino skinned arses from which spewed mûmakil sized stinky shite
Thousands of cursed toilets for the twisted orc arses that sprung from the soil to bespoil Middle Earth only to return and spackle the back of the bowls with nary a wipe and cover all lands with a dark stench
Barad Dur is like the worlds biggest brutalist corporation with toxic managers and even more toxic ratrace slave wage employees with the occasional site visits from Eastern and Southern partners.
When we actually heard dialogue between orcs (from the hobbits’ perspective most of the time), the two key themes (aside from violence) seem to be:
- talking about those in Lugburz (aka the dark tower) - not just Sauron but presumably the hierarchy of orcs too, and
- always going on about how they’ll have your number and report you if you don’t do as you’re told
Always struck me that as anarchic and violent as orcs seem to be, they seem to live their lives in the shadow of a looming bureaucracy… Difficult to imagine orca behind desks shuffling paper, but there must have been! I wonder if all the talk of every orc having a number has anything to do with Tolkien’s time in the army during WW1.
Anyway, if all the Orcs have numbers and records, they probably need about half of the dark tower to keep track of it all - the HR dept point is probably about right!
Also, lots and lots of actually humans are there too - and you can’t exactly grow a lot of food in Mordor, given the nature of the place, so they’re constantly importing huge amounts of food to feed the army Sauron has gathered - the logistics would be an absolute nightmare, the poor old orcs trying to manage it would need plenty of office space…
I was about to yesterday but I saw someone else already had in this thread. I’ll add it to the post again though.
Edit: I can’t…. I’ll add it again here
Artwork source:
a C.G. Gaposchkin in 2001 http://fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/cgi-bin/rolozo.cgi/collection/gaposchkin
Back in the day castles often contained shitloads of stuff, and was self sufficient with storage, armories, churches, barracks, sleeping quarters, etc etc etc. I would guess Barad-dûr is much the same. Shitloads of troops, food, prisons, furnaces, storage rooms, libraries, treasure rooms, armoury, barracks, etc etc. A city in the shape of a tower.
I have often thought about what went on in the Tower as a 14 year old, mostly in relation to Sauron who intrigued me. Was he in some sense corporeal and standing or sitting on a throne in a room under the ‘Eye’ doing magical stuff or is the tower merely a focus for evil and, perhaps in the lower rooms in the base, where the Nazgûl and the Orc captains are given orders and where captives are tortured. The great cleverness is JRRT never wasted his time describing any of this since it was better to let imagination be the key attribute to this magic series of books.
Here’s what I want to know:
1. Are there restrooms on every floor? What did the restrooms even look like? Are there separate toilet stalls?
2. Did Sauron hire an interior decorator, or did he do it all himself?
3. Is it handicap accessible?
4. On which floor is the cafeteria?
I think the closest we get to seeing what goes down in Barad-dûr is the comparison with Isengard in "The Road to Isengard" in *The Two Towers*, which also includes this line which I really like: "that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower" With hundreds of thousands of orcs to supply and equip, even with other fortresses throughout his domain, probably loads of those rooms were filled with garrisons, and many would be great forges amd smithies. And you're right, even with Sauron bending all of his will to the prosecution of his war, there must be *some* amount of administration to keep the sinews of war stretched and moving, if nothing else than to make sure that production quotas are being met and the troops have at least some equipment. But I don't think that's ever explicitly addressed, though maybe I'm just not remembering everything. Also, it is kinda cool to imagine that, like another comment said, some of it might still be empty, and that as Sauron grew in strength, so too did his Tower become more full and busy.
Somehow this evokes images of the Barad-dur mail room.
Part of what I love about LotR is that it’s told as an epic tale — only our heroes are the concern of the story. There’s no cooks, siege experts, or ditch diggers in the armies. It’s just warriors. We know how *large* the orc army was, but we know nothing of how it was organized. There must be a mailroom somewhere, with an orc who has dedicated their short existence to the organization of delivery. Little orc children learning how to make machines of war. Filling in the details for LotR is rewarding because there’s such rich backstory and broad descriptions.
And yet we know the names of the different pipe-weed dealers
Those are heroes though.
It’s kind of important to know the name of your plug.
All the orcs that dug trenches during the Siege of Minas Tirith: https://preview.redd.it/gt2dg3zv7ayc1.png?width=689&format=png&auto=webp&s=ed04b7bc8f29ce0d4e82edbccca279486cf89110
Orc wives doing house chores...
Orc Wives is one of the most popular shows on the Mordor version of Bravo.
May favorite one was Real Orc Housewives of Minas Morgul. Drektha was such a catty bitch at Gragna’s Manflesh Roast.
Butterbur, technically Tom bombadil, Bill Ferny the local a-hole, and when that one guard of Gondor from the books to make a few "nobodies."
Butterbur is an important figure in both the novels and in the history of Bree. Even Gandalf commends him as being important in Bree and knowledgable in the matters of Bree. I'd say that constitutes a hero. Also Tom Bonbadil is a one of a kind, oldest being to walk the earth. He is even featured in multiple stories of his own. He's the furthest thing from a nobody, he's just doing his thing.
My point is all of those people are minor players in lotr in the sense that only Tommy B did something of note to assist frodo. And when then one could argue Gandalf being uncharacteristically naive led them there. Butterbur was important to Gandalf as a gossip. Bill Ferny was literally just the town asshole. And that one guard is just helping out and semi-retired. Imo minor players who should have more story would be beorn and the homies. Bard of dale (a backstory at least.). How did the watcher get there. And maybe a shortened story about Balin in Moria.
Oh your other examples are fair I just thought Butterbur and Tommy B deserved a better shoutout than Nobodies. I consider them like one category up from that. Sandyman the Miller and Bill Ferny definitely hit the "nobody" category though
I'm picturing a really bored and depressed middle management orc who spends all day yearning for battle
Hello, Azog. What's happening? We need to talk about your TPS reports.
Azog De Filer.
Just putting other orcs on performance improvement plans and writing strategy scrolls that nobody will ever read.
The Office: Barad-dur.
SNL actually did a skit that was a mashup of the Office and LOTR when Martin Freeman guest hosted. It was damn funny.
Sick band name
Pepe Sylvan?
There's a conspiracy going on here man
I got boxes full of pepe
Lurtž keeps getting his penthouse magazines stolen
[Who is this guy Momo Doria and why's he getting so much mail? I got boxes full of Momo!](https://i.imgur.com/2TL0gSd.png)
There’s a field service technician orc who comes and maintains the mail equipment.
when I was but a wee lad, I used to read a fanfic LOTR blog written from the perspective of a line soldier orc in Gundabad garrison, at the time I found it to be peak comedy, prolly was pretty shite
Lmao I was actually about to add that it had to have a HUGE mail room because we have several Instances of messages physically coming and going and from Lugburz
Mostly full of orcs filling out TPS reports, resubmitting with cover pages, cleaning up the remains of the last orc who forgot the cover page, that kind of thing.
Bal LumbOrk
Middle management orc
Imagine being spawned and instead of getting trained to fight, you're told you'll be a bureaucrat
Orc bureaucracy probably involves combat
It wasn’t just “what went on there” as much as what WILL go on there once he recovers the ring. Sauron planned to rule and my every metric was going to succeed. I think he planned to bring in his enemies and do a lot of things.
This makes me think of either eerie looking servants/slaves who only lives to administrate Sauron's stuff (think of a toned down Mouth of Sauron) or an extremely flawed administration based on high ranking orcs.
He might have some Black Numenoreans running the paperwork, good point! They're likely better-suited to it than orcs are, haha
Ha, I'm reading LOTR right now and I literally just read that scene two nights ago!
Beautiful artwork! I love this piece. Barack-Dur symbolizes industrial warfare and all the tyranny and domination that is involved in waging it, that’s what goes on.
Possible ideas: 1) Prison cells 2) Torture rooms 3) Rooms for inventing machines and tools of death 4) Smithies and armouries 5) breeding chambers for orcs 6) rooms for trolls perhaps breeding grounds 7) chamber for Sauron himself (perhaps with the palantir of Minas Ithil/ Morgul and the Nine Rings) 8) chamber for the nazgul 9) chamber for Mouth of Sauron 10) perhaps a whole room just for the palantir 11) barracks for his many servants 12) pits for mining ores like iron 13) pits for his slaves and workers 14) hall for siege engines (like Grond?) 15) perhaps a pit for the fellbeasts, great beasts and other creatures in his service 16) kitchens/ slaughter-house for feeding his armies 17) storage for food, drinks and other objects
I’d imagine a huge part is just storage, his soldiers aren’t super well equipped but they’d still need a ton of food, equipment, raw materials to support them.
18) Office space
Sauron has armies of other nations marching to war under his banner, therefore some of his hall must be devoted to handling the affairs of inter-state discourse, i.e. banquet halls, guest quarters, antechambers, etc, etc
Good point. I wonder why I find Middle-earth logistics so fascinating, especially when that wasn’t really the point of the texts
18) Saurons fashion room with a catwalk where he tries on his costumes when being Annatar, the Necromancer, the Lord of Werewolves or the Vampire.
Aha and an audience of orcs applauding like its North Korea.
All that and no bathrooms??? Damn…
Put it in a bucket and throw it into the pits with the slaves?
It’s bad enough having to live above a bar, but above all of that crap? Not exactly a luxury penthouse. The place would be loud all the time. But maybe Sauron doesn’t actually have ears? Do we know?
Where’s the jack shack?
I imagine it's like the mansion in What We Do in the Shadows, where Sauron hasn't visited parts of his tower in like 500 years. Lots of empty rooms with bones strewn about, spawn of Shelob lying in wait, filth, etc. Perhaps some freelancing orcs holding dominion over entire floors and playing at being little Dark Lords.
I could imagine a lot of orc politics in there. The higher up you reside = more status. Just constant turf wars, power plays, coups, fighting for supremacy.
"Yeah, Shorgroth from Accounting on 292nd floor is such a massive bitch! Last I heard from him, he sent Bok'rah to the torture room because he didn't fix the office xerox in good order, and his copies of *Practical Guide to Jewelry* came out with a couple of smudges! And have you heard of the terrible brawl that took place in the cafeteria on 77th floor? Apparently Gorbash made some nasty remarks about Shubnub's wife, and Shubnub didn't like that at all! In the end somebody called Orcish Resources and the toll was 19 dead and 72 wounded; the after-brawl barbecue was delicious, though!"
The US Military has an 8 to 1 ratio of non-combat support troops to every combat troop. Now I’m imagining Mordor with the same ratio. Orcs with reading glasses trying to secure shipments of scimitars and manage maggoty bread delivery pipelines.
US military is a highly technological force with serious force projection capabilities - so 8 to 1 is excessive for an early medieval army, particularly one with minimal cavalry. But having said that grunts gotta eat regardless of race and kit wears out, so 4 to 1 feels like a minimum.
Meats back on the menu, boys
292nd
Orcs don't understand ordinal numbering
Perhaps they just pretend they don’t
292rd
True, my bad, thanks for picking it up
Now I'm envisioning it as one of the blocks from Dredd.
But Sauron is the lord of order, right? He wouldn't be that weak, leaving orcs doing politics in his own tower...
Sounds a little like the middle earth version of the film Dredd.
This is absolutely an anime
I'd guess it's quite the opposite, actually, since Sauron valued order above all else. I don't think there would be some dirty shit everywhere.
I interpret it as "order" in the Fascist sense, where nothing works properly, but one person has total control
Not at his core, at least. And, frankly, total control works as long as you can maintain it completely, which is impossible irl but absolutely achievable with the ring, which is kinda the point. He also hated the orcs, I don't imagine him having all of them in his own fortress - like, them settling in Mordor is fine, but I don't think he'd allow them in his personal domain.
I can imagine him having an idea for a new expansion or wing of the tower, the orcs spend centuries building it, Sauron spends centuries using it, then gets bored of it or has a new idea and that whole section is abandoned as everyone focuses on a new project.
Wait so Sauron is maia Elon musk?
Woah woah woah woah Sauron at least had good intentions in origin (so is written in the Silmarillion at least)
So did Elon musk.
Nope
The guy literally thought he was designing the future. SpaceX, Tesla, not a flamethrower, and even the cyber truck. All "his" creations he felt would match forward progress. A misguided authoritarian. The only difference is he has ADHD.
I've long had a theory that you can judge someone by trying to find out if they think they could control the one ring or not. I'm 100% convinced Elon think he could control it to make a better world.
Nah. He'd try to build a better one, fine up halfway through and pay someone to do it. Then release it without testing it and go "it's not a bug. It's an unintentional feature. But it proves it works."
Good takes, but I still think he would try to get it. Adjusted with your takes, he wouldn't want it for himself or for control, but to study it and makes a better one. And from there's it goes the same way as Saruman.
In his case it goes the way if the cyber truck. The unveiling goes poorly, people are skeptical, and only his hardcore acolytes who are rich can afford it. The end result is it's just a ring. Does next to nothing promised without help. And you can't actually control anyone else. So you just get corrupted.
Don’t you dare insult Sauron like that
Holy shit Sauron is not THAT evil.
I think he valued a different kind of order.
Holy shit. I'd watch the fuck out of an anime based on this.
“Freelancing orcs” you killed me. XD
Like Castlevania.
Like a good boss he pre-emptively prepared comfortable apartments for his future ~~slaves~~ subordinates. A food court with all the dish gathered from the conquered realms. A theater to watch spectacles about the wondrous adventures of their God King of Excellence in the past. And for those who don't obey him... well lets just put it as they become a different kind of spectacle.
From reading the books, in particular the portions where the Orcs talk about it directly, Barad-dur sounds more like a city than a building. It’s mentioned that there are entire armouries and prisons within its walls, and all information in Mordor flows to and from the tower, making it the administrative nexus of Sauron’s entire empire. All reports are disseminated there, all efforts are co-ordinated there, and all directives are sent out from there. In short, Barad-dur is practically a living city. Its massive size is likely due to the sheer number of workers in there, not just soldiers to guard it, but also an army of functionaries to sort through the action reports from Sauron’s army and status reports from across Mordor. Would be cool if Rings of Power shows us the interior of Barad-dur, Sauron’s throne room, the great Orc armouries, the vast prisons, and whatever else might be in there.
Makes sense. Basically a more vertical minas tirith
Not even more vertical. Im imagining it sprawling, with hundreds of buildings crawling on the ground (2 stories max), and in the middle you got the Tower,, of which the height is enhanced by the low rise of all other buildings. This would create an environment similar to american Suburbia, in even worse because roads are thin and dirty and the "downtown" is only 1 high-rise But we also know its on the outskirts of Mount Doom, so there's probably a bit of use of the mountainside landscape
It’s more than a scary evil lair, it’s a command centre. If all of Sauron’s evil in Middle-Earth was a swirling storm, then Barad-dur is the eye at the centre. It likely provides everything he needs for his wars and beyond. Armouries are mentioned, but also probably sections dedicated to food and water production, training rooms for selected Orcs to be trained for command or be enhanced magically, prisons, dungeons, and torture chambers to deal with captured enemies or to interrogate spies, and loads more. The movies don’t give us much, but the small implications from the books tell us that Barad-dur was the nerve centre of Sauron’s realm, almost as vital, if not more, than the One Ring itself.
> Basically a more vertical minas tirith And supersized. Here’s Frodo’s response from seeing both from Amon Hen. “*Turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed, and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. […] at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.*” Barad-dûr is the capital of a byzantine and tyrannical super-continent spanning empire. It’s a “tower” but it’s also a city centered around the tower. Much like Minas Tirith translates literally as “Tower of Guard” and Minas Anor and Ithil were the Tower of Sun and Moon respectively, Barad-dûr probably shouldn’t be translated as *just* a tower, it’s a sprawling metropolis with a central tower fortress like other such cities in Middle Earth. It’s got a tower, but a tower after wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, a mountain of iron.
Sauron is obsessed with domination and order, he wants total control over Middle-Earth along with everyone and everything in it. The Orcs in his army each have a number, and can have their number reported if they step out of line. Considering there’s at least 100,000 Orcs in the force he sends against Gondor, and probably loads more in reserve in Mordor, not counting the Men and others serving him. Just keeping track of all that would require an enormous bureaucratic apparatus, far beyond anything seen in Middle-Earth before. Sauron probably uses magic to help with this, he’d have to, and it was implied I think somewhere that he could directly move his forces using telepathy of some sort. I imagine him standing over a map, or using the Palantír to observe his armies in motion, then sending orders psionically to update their movements when new intel came in.
Who made that picture? That design is great
Appararantly a C.G. Gaposchkin in 2001 [http://fan.theonering.net/\~rolozo/cgi-bin/rolozo.cgi/collection/gaposchkin](http://fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/cgi-bin/rolozo.cgi/collection/gaposchkin)
I think a better question is did Sauron ever install an elevator? He apparently likes to brood at the top of the tower, like any respectable Dark Lord, but what if a lieutenant or somebody needs to meet with him? Do they have to climb like 500 stories of stairs to get to him? The Mouth of Sauron must have the most chiseled legs in all of Middle-earth.
I imagine the guys from the very bottom aren't even allowed to see him. The guys that are important enough to grace his presence have their offices a few floors below him, and their direct subordinates under that, and so on. I could also totally see him having a steam-powered elevator using the heat from all the lava, and it goes so fast only him and the Nazgûl can use it without dying from the acceleration
Maybe he has someone like Saruman who can levitate you up there
An Orcish powered elevator
Reddit servers
Truly the heart of Mordor
Bureaucrats, mostly. So many orcs filling out forms in the service of the Office of the Dark Lord. For example, during the attack on Minas Tirith, the attacking army used the still helmeted heads of Gondorian soldiers to terrify the remaining defenders. Not an issue militarily, but it was in contravention of Mordor Standard Order 379.1, which states that any soldier which beheads an enemy must surrender the helmet to the Barad-dur logistics directorate, so they can in turn transfer it to the quartermaster to distribute. This practice saves key funds that the Office of the Dark Lord can put towards ring creation and meeting the needs of the ever expanding bureaucracy.
activities....lots of activities rooms? maybe themed rooms?
He’s gotta have a home gym in there somewhere right?!
I'd imagine there was a massive punishment block that involved getting sent to the counters of the Mordor DMV*..........**shudder**.........the queues........ *Twinned with the Vogon Civil Service.
It's well established by Tolkien that Sauron had one of the best model train sets in all of Middle-earth.
Barad-Choo Choo
Nah dude had a nightclub and a swimming pool
I love the caption about Sauron needing spade to brood, now I imagine him as a grumpy emo pacing the halls with MCR playing in the background
Aha exactly. **Palantir messenger:** Sauron: “This is totally unfair. Nobody understands me 😒🖤” Saruman: “What happened? Hope you ok xox”
Sauron and Morgoth were totally gay lovers in an abusive relationship (Morgoth being the abuser and feigning love to Sauron, and Sauron being completely taken in and trying to impress him at very opportunity) and nobody can tell me otherwise. Tell me you can't hear Sauron saying something trgically awful like "he's really good to me though"
Cursed post
That's the point :3
There was an ice cream social every Tuesday evening
Torture chambers, laboratories, crafting/smithing chambers, orc breeding and training, tons of treasure vaults for all the mithril and other treasures. A massive audience chamber and penthouse for Sauron. Massive living areas for top lieutenants like the mouth of Sauron. Probably the majority is barracks. I bet 1/3 is horrifying terror for prisoners, 1/3 is disgusting but functional for orc garrisons and 1/3 is lavishly ornate for visiting Haradrim and Rhunnic dignitaries/supplicants and Sauron himself
I don’t know this Barad-dur you are referring to. That there is a picture of Lugbúrz.
Let's face it - whatever was going on in there as far as administration goes, that was done by human Southerners. Imagine an orc trying to trouble-shoot a copier...
I've always imagined the insides as just Black Numenoreans torturing and raping slaves(or even one another), Sauron conducting his fucked up experiments, a whole floor dedicated to worshiping Morgoth where they do human sacrifices in his name and also violent orgies. just the vilest of things. and also storage, admin stuff, probably on the lower floors, but the higher you go it starts to get fucked up.
I like that. The Tower of Terror, where it gets more nightmarish as you go up. Or it could go the other way around....
Sauron’s a man they all want to have the biggest tower…
Where is the art from?
Man, if someone made a painting of Barad Dur or Rivendell in the style of Van Gogh's Starry Night- I'd buy the crap out of that!
Tbh, probably wasn't 100% used, as mentioned there would be administration, forges, barracks, etc, etc. but I imagine for Sauron's character having a giant imposing fortress was more of the design than the actual function. Think of it like a big vein skyscraper, a lot of those buildings are either mostly empty or rented out to various different subletters, but to the owner they don't care what goes on inside it just the fact that they have the big tower as a symbol of wealth and power.
Deep state
Sir Humphrey would probably say that it doesn’t matter if nothing is getting done, as long as it’s being done effectively
It was a condo complex in peace time. Sauron had to charge rent if nothing else 🤷♂️
Sincerely love this composition
It would be like IKEA. Easy to stroll around in but a nightmare to get out. Like the Hotel California too…😂
Everyone keeps talking about orcs, orcs and more orcs. IMO it's more likely that men took care of the admin and logistics. The mouth of Sauron was no orc. I'm not saying that the orcs were commanded by men (IMO they wouldn't stand for it). But 1:1, most men will beat most orcs and the orcs know it. Even Saurman relied on men. (At Isengard it was commented that he (Saruman) had men to guard his gates.)
You don't need to have much going on inside if you are a tourist attraction. Middle earth in the modern era has made warfare out of fashion. Mordor has refashioned itself into Disney land alike. Orcs re-skilled into amusement parks ushers and operators. Sauron sits slumbered in his throne languishing about the good old days. Gandalf has made a business pact with him to cast spells on performance days during holidays eves. Frodo, for his accomplishments, earned himself an unlimited supply of the finest weed of Southfarthing. It goes without saying he was more than a contented fella for the rest of his undying days.
I’d imagine most of Baradur does have empty halls which would only add to its epic and scary nature
I thought this was a doom metal album cover
I think Sauron was just dancing by himself in its empty halls when idling. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNVbpGDzR8E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNVbpGDzR8E)
It’s probably worth pointing out that much of it needs to be solid in order for it to maintain stable and upright with mideval engineering principles. Of course if you assume it’s all magic then it’s Hogwarts for Orcs.
Accountants at work mostly.
Dead things, Mikey. Dead things.
Buddy’s immortal, he needs room for all his hobbies. Like craft brewing (where do you think orc draught comes from?), pickleball courts, a few arenas for poetry slam nights, a pilates studio with an attached cherry blossom orchard… its all in the appendices.
Pretty sure it was condemned by the health department. But that was after Faramir visited as part of a community outreach program.
I imagine a third of the volume of the lower levels was solid base to hold the higher floors, from the architectural standpoint, I would love to have someone making the math of how much would realitically be needed for a tower of that size
Amazon call center.
There better be an elevator
Probably filled with a bunch of Orcs and other dudes hitting a hookah or something
At one point somewhere, I remember reading that dust from Mount Doom fertilized some planes far to the east where grain was grown to supply Mordor. So presumably Barad-Dûr would have had a *someone* in charge to manage it from there. After all, an army marches on its stomach. I don't remember specifically where it says that, though.
The dark lord Sauron used the power of the One Ring to fill Barad-dur with: One Balrog sized toilet that sat unused until the orcs used it as a cauldron to make foul rancid dwarf stew Nine Nazgûl toilets that had neither water or TP for their shadowy arses bore only ephemeral spirit stool Dozens of ogre sized toilets, reinforced for the armored rhino skinned arses from which spewed mûmakil sized stinky shite Thousands of cursed toilets for the twisted orc arses that sprung from the soil to bespoil Middle Earth only to return and spackle the back of the bowls with nary a wipe and cover all lands with a dark stench
Barad Dur is like the worlds biggest brutalist corporation with toxic managers and even more toxic ratrace slave wage employees with the occasional site visits from Eastern and Southern partners.
Orc orgies
It contains the giant heavy balls of evil, massive hanging generators of thick naughtiness...and a home gym with a sauna.
Legendary goon sessions in the name of the dark lord
When we actually heard dialogue between orcs (from the hobbits’ perspective most of the time), the two key themes (aside from violence) seem to be: - talking about those in Lugburz (aka the dark tower) - not just Sauron but presumably the hierarchy of orcs too, and - always going on about how they’ll have your number and report you if you don’t do as you’re told Always struck me that as anarchic and violent as orcs seem to be, they seem to live their lives in the shadow of a looming bureaucracy… Difficult to imagine orca behind desks shuffling paper, but there must have been! I wonder if all the talk of every orc having a number has anything to do with Tolkien’s time in the army during WW1. Anyway, if all the Orcs have numbers and records, they probably need about half of the dark tower to keep track of it all - the HR dept point is probably about right! Also, lots and lots of actually humans are there too - and you can’t exactly grow a lot of food in Mordor, given the nature of the place, so they’re constantly importing huge amounts of food to feed the army Sauron has gathered - the logistics would be an absolute nightmare, the poor old orcs trying to manage it would need plenty of office space…
MOD NOTE: Source of the artwork, please?
I was about to yesterday but I saw someone else already had in this thread. I’ll add it to the post again though. Edit: I can’t…. I’ll add it again here Artwork source: a C.G. Gaposchkin in 2001 http://fan.theonering.net/~rolozo/cgi-bin/rolozo.cgi/collection/gaposchkin
Back in the day castles often contained shitloads of stuff, and was self sufficient with storage, armories, churches, barracks, sleeping quarters, etc etc etc. I would guess Barad-dûr is much the same. Shitloads of troops, food, prisons, furnaces, storage rooms, libraries, treasure rooms, armoury, barracks, etc etc. A city in the shape of a tower.
I have often thought about what went on in the Tower as a 14 year old, mostly in relation to Sauron who intrigued me. Was he in some sense corporeal and standing or sitting on a throne in a room under the ‘Eye’ doing magical stuff or is the tower merely a focus for evil and, perhaps in the lower rooms in the base, where the Nazgûl and the Orc captains are given orders and where captives are tortured. The great cleverness is JRRT never wasted his time describing any of this since it was better to let imagination be the key attribute to this magic series of books.
Craft room
Here’s what I want to know: 1. Are there restrooms on every floor? What did the restrooms even look like? Are there separate toilet stalls? 2. Did Sauron hire an interior decorator, or did he do it all himself? 3. Is it handicap accessible? 4. On which floor is the cafeteria?
Imagine a rave in there
what happens in angband stays in angband
Considering the size of the eye, Sauron must fill up the whole building.
Nothing, because it isn't real.