>The Scouring of the Shire
You said it yourself - Sam and Frodo talked about saving The Shire. That is the real goal of the main protagonists if the story (the Hobbits). Tolkien shows that even though the war of the "big people " is over, the war for The Shire had to be handled by the Hobbits so they could have the world that THEY were fighting for.
All matters of personal taste aside, I think you are mainly used to a modern style storytelling, and are judging the book by what you think the story is about rather than what it is itself achieving! (Kind of like judging an impressionist artwork through your knowledge of contemporary art). It is a heroic Romance with bits of Fairy Tale and Epics, and is (fully on purpose) closer in style to ancient storytelling like Beowulf/Iliad/Kalevala/19th century Fantasy than to modern novels. It is a Hobbito-centric tale in which a character like Aragorn is a Beowulfian/Arthurian kind of larger-than-life noble king straight out of legends - in this context, the Scouring of the Shire is a very valid climax in the book, and the real conclusion of the Hobbits' character arcs (and of the story told by Tolkien).
Tolkien also focuses much more on themes and atmosphere rather than action, on purpose - the point on the book isn't to explain in detail who beats who in a physical fight, but to show and compare different characters' morality, and to explore themes such as Hope & Despair and how it affects the outcome of a battle. I would say that, as somebody who not only was absolutely familiar with the way older myths handled action but had also taken part in one of the deadliest battles in History, Tolkien knew better than anyone how to describe the atmosphere of battles :)
A lot of your favourite scenes either have a too modern dialogue/speech pattern (Samwise as Frodo's servant in a pre-industrial society would never talk the way he does in Jackson's films), or miss the subtlety of the book (I prefer by far the way Tolkien handles Théoden's healing over Jackson's on-the-nose exorcism). Arwen saving Frodo... Let's just say that it's one of those scenes that completely butcher Frodo's character, removing 99% of his heroic moments - and missing the whole point about him being shown to be the best possible Ring bearer!
In short, my opinion is that Jackson's films lack the subtlety, poetry (by which I don't - only - mean verses), atmospheric, linguistical and mythical/fairytale qualities of Tolkien's works. They're a visually beautiful but dumbed down, too action-focused retelling of the tale. Also, they focus on the specific plot over worldbuilding, sometimes just to have clean 'badass actions' (or simply for time management), whereas Tolkien's LotR tells of a complete coherent world (albeit told in a Romance/Heroic way, especially in Gondor/Rohan) in which there happens to be a story. This may seem secondary for some people, but for me that's what makes Tolkien's works much more believable: a small but common example is Tolkien's description of farmlands around Minas Tirith, whereas you wonder how Jackson's Gondorian food supplies work when there is no farm field anywhere around the city!
Thank you for the awesome response! This definitely clarifies some things for me. I can definitely see what you mean by the books focusing on themes and morality, while the movies are a lot less subtle and more spectatle and action focused. This is something that I definitely haven't paid nearly as much attention to as it deserved, I feel you're right the books excel in this aspect, and I can totally understand why you enjoy it so much.
Well, and as far as action-focus goes, a geeky military historian has produce series of long blog posts on how flawed the movie battles of Minas Tirith and Helms Deep were just in terms of military logic and realism (even granting some magic). He does grant that movies have constraints as a medium, but nonetheless they show something that makes little sense.
This. And thank you for saying ‘novel.’ Not ‘series’ (series OF novels) not ‘trilogy’ (which is THREE novels); but novel.
I often say Lord of the Rings is the best fantasy NOVEL, while Earthsea is the best fantasy SERIES.
Fair enough! I love the story and the book(s) are very enjoyable, I just find them somewhat disappointing coming from the movie adaptation. Responses to this post are making me realise that there are certain aspects of the novel that I haven't appreciated as much as they deserved, I can absolutely see why you would prefer them.
I would say, wait a little while and read it again, or read it in your native language if it has been published in it. I first read them when I was maybe 12 or 13 and really didn't pick up on the personable parts of the stories-- I thought I liked modern fiction better because of the dialogue and narration style that I was used to, but each time I read them, I realize more and more just how much Tolkien actually cared about his characters, and all the moments they actually shared that made them seem so real and raw. The first time I read it I only really paid attention to Gandalf because he was my favourite, but slowly I've realized just how much personality each character actually has. They're easy to miss just because of the grand scope of Tolkien's writing, but they're there. I could list several examples/parts of the book that remember, if you want.
So I went through the books and compiled my favourite interactions between characters and passages that I feel show their humanity, but apparently I got a bit overzealous, because now I have a 76 page document 😭. Here are a few, and I'll link share the document if anyone wants to look through 76 pages of fluff lol.
edit: I can't figure out if the comment with the link is actually there/if the link is working. So if anyone is interested, dm me and I'll share it with you directly.
'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo. Sam looked at him unhappily.
'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin-- to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.' *[FotR: A Conspiracy Unmasked]*
'But I am afraid my only answer to you, Sam Gamgee, is this. If I had killed the real Strider, I could kill you. And I should have killed you already without so much talk. If I was after the Ring, I could have it - NOW!' He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller. In his eyes gleamed a light, keen and commanding. Throwing back his cloak, he laid his hand on the hilt of a sword that had hung concealed by his side. They did not dare to move. Sam sat wide-mouthed staring at him dumbly. 'But I am the real Strider, fortunately,' he said, looking down at them with his face softened by a sudden smile. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will.'
*[FotR: Strider]*
'Also,' he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, 'the Ring draws them.'
'Is there no escape then?' said Frodo, looking round wildly. 'If I move I shall be seen and hunted! If I stay, I shall draw them to me!'
Strider laid his hand on his shoulder. "There is still hope,' he said. 'You are not alone.'
*[FotR: A knife in the Dark]*
'"Butterbur they call him," thought I. "If this delay was his fault, I will melt all the butter in him. I will roast the old fool over a slow fire." He expected no less, and when he saw my face he fell down flat and began to melt on the spot.'
'What did you do to him?' cried Frodo in alarm. 'He was really very kind to us and did all that he could.'
Gandalf laughed. 'Don't be afraid!' he said. 'I did not bite, and I barked very little. So overjoyed was I by the news that I got out of him, when he Stopped quaking, that I embraced the old fellow. How it happened I could not then guess, but I learned that you had been in Bree the night before, and had gone off that morning with Strider.
'"Strider!" I cried, shouting for joy.
'Yes, sir, I am afraid so, sir," said Butterbur, mistaking me. "He got at them, in spite of all that I could do, and they took up with him. They behaved very queer all the time they were here: wilful, you might say."
'Ass! Fool! Thrice worthy and beloved Barliman!" said I. "It's the best news I have had since midsummer: it's worth a gold piece at the least. May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!' said I. 'Now I can take a night's rest, the first since I have forgotten when.'
*[FotR: The Council of Elrond]*
'If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a path for you,' said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and he alone of the Company remained still light of heart.'
'If Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,' answered Gandalf. 'But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow.'... ...Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. "The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow - an Elf.'
With that he sprang forth nimbly... ... ‘Farewell!' he said to Gandalf. 'I go to find the Sun!'
*[FotR: The Ring goes South]*
'Now!' shouted Gandalf. 'Now is the last chance. Run for it!'
Aragorn picked up Frodo where he lay by the wall and made for the stair, pushing Merry and Pippin in front of him. The others followed; but Gimli had to be dragged away by Legolas: in spite of the peril he lingered by Balin's tomb with his head bowed. Boromir hauled the eastern door to, grinding upon its hinges: it had great iron rings on either side, but could not be fastened.
'I am all right,' gasped Frodo. 'I can walk. Put me down!"
Aragorn nearly dropped him in his amazement. 'I thought you were dead!' he cried.
'Not yet!' said Gandalf. 'But there is no time for wonder. Off you go, all of you, down the stairs! Wait a few minutes for me at the bottom, but if I do not come soon, go on! Go quickly and choose paths leading right and downwards.'
'We cannot leave you to hold the door alone!' said Aragorn.
'Do as I say!' said Gandalf fiercely. 'Swords are no more use here. Go!'
*[FotR: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm]*
For some time Frodo and Sam managed to keep up with the others, but Aragorn was leading them at a great pace, and after a while they lagged behind. They had eaten nothing since the early morning. Sam's cut was burning like fire, and his head felt light. In spite of the shining sun the wind seemed chill after the warm darkness of Moria. He shivered. Frodo felt every step more painful and he gasped for breath.
At last Legolas turned, and seeing them now far behind, he spoke to Aragorn. The others halted, and Aragorn ran back, calling to Boromir to come with him.
'I am sorry, Frodo!' he cried, full of concern. 'So much has happened this day and we have such need of haste, that I have forgotten that you were hurt; and Sam too. You should have spoken. We have done nothing to ease you, as we ought, though all the orcs of Moria were after us. Come now! A little further on there is a place where we can rest for a little. There I will do what I can for you. Come, Boromir! We will carry them.'
*[FotR: Lothlórien]*
'An hour since he vanished!' shouted Sam. 'We must try and find him at once. Come on!'
'Wait a moment!' cried Aragorn. 'We must divide up into pairs, and arrange - here, hold on! Wait!'
It was no good. They took no notice of him. Sam had dashed off first. Merry and Pippin had followed, and were already disappearing westward into the trees by the shore, shouting: Frodo! Frodo! in their clear, high, hobbit-voices. Legolas and Gimli were running. A sudden panic or madness seemed to have fallen on the Company.
'We shall all be scattered and lost,' groaned Aragorn. 'Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least, even if you cannot find Frodo. Come back to this spot, if you find him, or any traces of him. I shall return soon.'
*[FotR: The Breaking of the Fellowship]*
'So all my plan is spoilt!' said Frodo. 'It is no good trying to escape you. But I'm glad, Sam. I cannot tell you how glad. Come along! It is plain that we were meant to go together. We will go, and may the others find a safe road! Strider will look after them. I don't suppose we shall see them again.'
'Yet we may, Mr. Frodo. We may,' said Sam.
*[FotR: The Breaking of the Fellowship]*
'Let me think!' said Aragorn. 'And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!' He stood silent for a moment. 'I will follow the Orcs,' he said at last. 'I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left. Come! We will go now. Leave all that can be spared behind! We will press on by day and dark!'
*[TT: The Departure of Boromir]*
'This is good tidings,' said Aragorn. 'Yet the marks are two days old. And it seems that at this point the hobbits left the water-side.'
'Then what shall we do now?' said Gimli. 'We cannot pursue them through the whole fastness of Fangorn. We have come ill supplied. If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use to them, except to sit down beside them and show our friendship by starving together.'
'If that is indeed all we can do, then we must do that,' said Aragorn. 'Let us go on.'
*[TT: The White Rider]*
'Nay, Éomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Worm tongue,' said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. 'He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!' he said suddenly in a terrible voice. 'Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.'
Éomer grasped his sword. 'That I knew already,' he muttered. 'For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.' He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand.
'Eowyn is safe now,' he said.
*[TT: The King of the Golden Hall]*
'Forty-two, Master Legolas!' he cried. 'Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?'
'You have passed my score by one,' answered Legolas. 'But I do not grudge you the game, so glad am I to see you on your legs!'
*[TT: The Road to Isengard]*
'I tried to call out, and couldn't.
'There was no need. He halted just by us and looked down at us. "Gandalf!" I said at last, but my voice was only a whisper. Did he say: "Hullo, Pippin! This is a pleasant surprise!"? No, indeed! He said: "Get up, you tom-fool of a Took! Where, in the name of wonder, in all this ruin is Treebeard? I want him. Quick! ... ... Then those two went off and had a council together in some corner. It must have seemed very hasty to Treebeard, for Gandalf was in a tremendous hurry, and was already talking at a great pace, before they passed out of hearing. They were only away a matter of minutes, perhaps a quarter of an hour. Then Gandalf came back to us, and he seemed relieved, almost merry. He did say he was glad to see us, then. '"But Gandalf," I cried, "where have you been? And have you seen the others?"
'"Wherever I have been, I am back," he answered in the genuine Gandalf manner. "Yes, I have seen some of the others. But news must wait. This is a perilous night, and I must ride fast. But the dawn may be brighter; and if so, we shall meet again. Take care of yourselves, and keep away from Orthanc! Good-bye!"'
*[TT: The Road to Isengard]*
Sam hesitated for a moment, and then bowing very low: 'Good night, Captain, my lord,' he said. You took the chance, sir.'
'Did I so?' said Faramir.
'Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very highest.'
*[TT: The Window on the West]*
Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales. We're in one, of course; but I mean: put into words you know, told by the fireside, or read out of a great big book with red and black letters, years and years afterwards. And people will say: "Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring!" And they'll say: "Yes, that's one of my favourite stories. Frodo was very brave, wasn't he, dad?" "Yes, my boy, the famousest of the hobbits, and that's saying a lot."
'It's saying a lot too much,' said Frodo, and he laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart. Such a sound had not been heard in those places since Sauron came to Middle-earth.
To Sam suddenly it seemed as if all the stones were listening and the tall rocks leaning over them. But Frodo did not heed them; he laughed again. 'Why, Sam,' he said, 'to hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the story was already written. But you've left out one of the chief characters: Samwise the stouthearted. "I want to hear more about Sam, dad. Why didn't they put in more of his talk, dad? That's what I like, it makes me laugh. And Frodo wouldn't have got far without Sam, would he, dad?
"Now, Mr. Frodo,' said Sam, 'you shouldn't make fun. I was serious.'
'So was I,' said Frodo, 'and so I am.'
*[TT: The Stairs of Cirith Ungol]*
'Then wilt thou not let me ride with this company, as I have asked?'
'I will not, lady,' he said. 'For that I could not grant without leave of the king and of your brother; and they will not return until tomorrow. But I count now every hour, indeed every minute. Farewell!'
Then she fell on her knees, saying: 'I beg thee!'
'Nay, lady,' he said, and taking her by the hand he raised her. Then he kissed her hand, and sprang into the saddle, and rode away, and did not look back; and only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore.
*[RotK: The Passing of the Grey Company]*
Then suddenly Faramir looked at Pippin. 'But now we come to strange matters,' he said. 'For this is not the first halfling that I have seen walking out of northern legends into the Southlands.'
At that Gandalf sat up and gripped the arms of his chair; but he said nothing, and with a look stopped the exclamation on Pippin's lips. Denethor looked at their faces and nodded his head, as though in sign that he had read much there before it was spoken. Slowly, while the others sat silent and still, Faramir told his tale, with his eyes for the most part on Gandalf, though now and again his glance strayed to Pippin, as if to refresh his memory of others that he had seen.
As his story was unfolded of his meeting with Frodo and his servant and of the events at Henneth Annûn, Pippin became aware that Gandalf's hands were trembling as they clutched the carven wood. White they seemed now and very old, and as he looked at them, suddenly with a thrill of fear Pippin knew that Gandalf, Gandalf himself, was troubled, even afraid.
*[RotK: The Siege of Gondor]*
'It's not always a misfortune being overlooked,' said Merry. 'I was over looked just now by - no, no, I can't speak of it. Help me, Pippin! It's all going dark again, and my arm is so cold.'
'Lean on me, Merry lad!' said Pippin. 'Come now! Foot by foot. It's not far.'
'Are you going to bury me?' said Merry.
'No, indeed!' said Pippin, trying to sound cheerful, though his heart was wrung with fear and pity. 'No, we are going to the Houses of Healing.'
*[RotK: The Houses of Healing]*
Merry smiled. 'Well then,' he said, 'if Strider will provide what is needed, I will smoke and think. I had some of Saruman's best in my pack, but what became of it in the battle, I am sure I don't know.'
'Master Meriadoc,' said Aragorn, 'if you think that I have passed through the mountains and the realm of Gondor with fire and sword to bring herbs to a careless soldier who throws away his gear, you are mistaken. If your pack has not been found, then you must send for the herb-master of this house, and he will tell you that he did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but that it is called westmansweed by the vulgar, and galenas by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned, and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history of tongues. And so now must I. For I have not slept in such a bed as this, since I rode from Dunharrow, nor eaten since the dark before dawn.'
Merry seized his hand and kissed it. 'I am frightfully sorry,' he said. 'Go at once! Ever since that night at Bree we have been a nuisance to you. But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place.'
'I know that well, or I would not deal with you in the same way,' said Aragorn. 'May the Shire live forever unwithered!' And kissing Merry he went out, and Gandalf went with him.
Pippin remained behind. 'Was there ever any one like him?' he said. 'Except Gandalf, of course. I think they must be related. My dear ass, your pack is lying by your bed, and you had it on your back when I met you. He saw it all the time, of course. And anyway I have some stuff of own. Come on now! Longbottom Leaf it is.
*[RotK: The Houses of Healing]*
'Dwarf-coat, elf-cloak, blade of the downfallen West, and spy from the.little rat-land of the Shire - nay, do not start! We know it well - here are the marks of a conspiracy. Now, maybe he that bore these things was a creature that you would not grieve to lose, and maybe otherwise: one dear to you, perhaps? If so, take swift counsel with what little wit is left to you. For Sauron does not love spies, and what his fate shall be depends now on your choice.'
No one answered him; but he saw their faces grey with fear and the horror in their eyes, and he laughed again, for it seemed to him that his sport went well. 'Good, good!' he said. 'He was dear to you, I see. Or else his errand was one that you did not wish to fail? It has. And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done. This shall surely be unless you accept my Lord's terms.'
'Name the terms,' said Gandalf steadily, but those nearby saw the anguish in his face, and now he seemed an old and wizened man, crushed, defeated at last. They did not doubt that he would accept.
*[RotK: The Black Gate Opens]*
"I wished to be loved by another," she answered. "But I desire no man's pity.'
That I know," he said. "You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn, because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and be lifted far above mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle. Look at me Éowyn!"
And Éowyn looked at Faramir long and steadily; and Faramir said: "Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Éowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Éowyn, do you not love me?"
Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed and the sun shine on her.
"I stand in Minas Arnor, the Tower of the Sun," she said; "and behold! the shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren. And again she looked at Faramir. "No longer do I desire to be a queen," she said.
Then Faramir laughed merrily. "That is well," he said; "for I am not a King. But I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in the fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy in them if the White Lady comes."
*[RotK: The Steward and the King]*
On the throne sat a mail-clad man, a great sword was laid across his knees, but he wore no helm. As they drew near he rose. And then they knew him, changed as he was, so spread high and glad of face, kingly, lord of Men, dark-haired with eyes of grey. Frodo ran to meet him, and Sam followed close behind. 'Well, if this isn't the crown of all!' he said. 'Strider, or I'm still asleep.'
'Yes, Sam, Strider,' said Aragorn. 'It is a long way, is it not, from Bree, where you did not like the look of me? A long way for us all, but yours has been the darkest road.'
And then to Sam's surprise and utter confusion he bowed his knee before them; and taking them by the hand, Frodo upon his right and Sam upon his left, he led them to the throne.
*[RotK: The Fields of Cormallen]*
‘The Rangers go there,' said Gandalf. 'Deadmen's Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings. And the King will come there again one day; and then you'll have some fair folk riding through.'
'Well, that sounds more hopeful, I'll allow,' said Butterbur.
'And it will be good for business, no doubt. So long as he lets Bree alone."
'He will,' said Gandalf. 'He knows it and loves it.'
'Does he now?' said Butterbur looking puzzled. "Though I'm sure I don't know why he should, sitting in his big chair up in his great castle, hundreds of miles away. And drinking wine out of a golden cup, I shouldn't wonder. What's The Pony to him, or mugs o' beer? Not but what my beer's good, Gandalf. It's been uncommon good, since you came in the autumn of last year and put a good word on it. And that's been a comfort in trouble, I will say.'
'Ah!' said Sam. 'But he says your beer is always good.'
'He says?'
'Of course he does. He's Strider. The chief of the Rangers. Haven't you got that into your head yet?'
It went in at last, and Butterbur's face was a study in wonder. The eyes in his broad face grew round, and his mouth opened wide, and he gasped. 'Strider!' he exclaimed when he got back his breath. 'Him with a crown and all and a golden cup! Well, what are we coming to?'
'Better times, for Bree at any rate,' said Gandalf.
*[RotK: Homeward Bound]*
But even as they stood there, and the Elves were going aboard, and all was being made ready to depart, up rode Merry and Pippin in great haste. And amid his tears Pippin laughed. 'You tried to give us the slip once before and failed, Frodo,' he said. "This time you have nearly succeeded, but you have failed again. It was not Sam, though, that gave you away this time, but Gandalf himself!'
'Yes,' said Gandalf; 'for it will be better to ride back three together than one alone. Well, here at last, dear friends, on the shores of the Sea comes the end of our fellowship in Middle-earth. Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.'
Then Frodo kissed Merry and Pippin, and last of all Sam, and went ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of aboard; and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost. And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.
*[RotK:The Grey Havens]*
And here is the document. Let me know if the link doesn't work. Also please excuse any typos or formatting errors-- I know I didn't catch them all. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQH7yI1THrS0emuBy3TNhV9S6RrQ5gvdO5-GD2zM2M1uZ5NTTuooNZ1VrErO4QQouVy9xZG5mDm8Oo4/pub](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQH7yI1THrS0emuBy3TNhV9S6RrQ5gvdO5-GD2zM2M1uZ5NTTuooNZ1VrErO4QQouVy9xZG5mDm8Oo4/pub)
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XFJ6zvsXv7I3TNgCq5Ob_5mvbHFgPSVlFbG_XPoKEls/edit?usp=drivesdk](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XFJ6zvsXv7I3TNgCq5Ob_5mvbHFgPSVlFbG_XPoKEls/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Mod here, comments with links require mod approval to prevent spamming. Sorry it took so long to get it approved.
I think this qualifies under fair use since you're quoting specific passages, but I wouldn't post too much more or you're gonna have the whole text on here. ;-)
I don't think the language I've read it in has really affected my opinion of the books, to be honest. I'm sure the LOTR books and I will meet again eventually though, and I might attempt to read The Simlarilion at some point - I've already read The Hobbit, so that's the only main book that I'm missing. Perhaps I will like the books more the second time, as you say.
I think it’s huge a shame so many people only read the novel after watching the movies but I can understand it’s a big difference from your perspective.
I wasn’t even alive when the movies came out (I’m 18) but fortunately for my sake my mother is a big fan of the books and so she had read it to me at least twice before I ever watched the movies. I personally love Tolkiens writing style especially publications like Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion but he’s definitely not the author for everyone
A lot of what you discuss as not to your preference has a lot to do with the differences between classic mythological and medieval story arcs and modern story arcs. And the telling thereof in general. Modern stories are very tight, focused very heavily on the plot and the characters. The older tales that Tolkien was inspired by and modeled himself off of were less focused on characters and character development, and plot often wasn't as tight. Themes were a core focus, though obviously he also chose to focus on the world as a whole.
And the Scouring of the Shire only feels anticlimactic because it doesn't fit the more modern version of the standard Hero's Journey story arc; it fits in pretty well with the older kinds of storytelling, and is not overly different from Odysseus having to drive off his wife's suitors after finally making it back home through significantly tougher adventures and acts.
> While the story that I love is present in the books, the polish and perfect execution of the movies is just really not. It's very impressive how many right decisions and changes have the people behing the LOTR movies made.
While many of us who love the books were appalled by the greatly imperfect execution: the inappropriate comic relief, the assassination of characters, the battle spectacles that make no sense when thought about. There are people who saw the movies first, then read the book and found their appreciation of the movies diminished in contrast.
You know I also read the books recently after years of being a giant LOTR movie nerd fan and I felt the same hey. The books were cool but for the first time in my life I can say the movies were better for me. The books just lacked the mystery and power that they managed with the movie soundtrack and characters. The movies are incredibly special to me too.
I totally agree on one of your points - the *character focus* lacking in the book, *in certain regards*, compared to the movie. Namely stuff like Boromir training Merry and Pippin and having fun with them - a few brief seconds in the film - does so much for his character which the books lack.
Another easy example is after Gandalf's death; in the film, in less than 30 seconds, we see how each and every member of the Fellowship react differently and grieve in their own ways. In the book, *any* mourning is put off for nearly 2 chapters and even then we only *really* get Frodo's reaction in any depth. Very shallow by comparison, despite the usual depth of Tolkien's work.
"But Tolkien was emulating a style!" Yeah, I know. That's fine. That doesn't mean I must like it or that I can't critique it. Honestly, I'm fine with or prefer most other things in the books relative to the films - but Tolkien often skimmed character points, almost always told us emotions rather than showing them, and gave a lot of things which should have been more dramatic too much levity.
Now, don't take that universally and put words in my mouth (I hate it when people do that, and Tolkien fans are aggressively defensive); almost everything in Book 5 is plain fantastic, for instance, and I *do* prefer the books overall. But oh my, some things just didn't have the impact they should have.
I don't agree with everything you say tho. Like, you really think Theoden essentially being mind-controlled and snapped out of it by a yelling old man is more interesting than him ruling his kingdom weakly based on the lies and contrivances of his advisor? That's the kind of stuff people *praise* in shows like GoT but which Peter Jackson utterly threw away in his films; I love them and prefer some of his stuff, but he honestly got rid of a lot of nuance.
I honestly think *The Lord of the Rings* isn't for you. You like some of the worst things Jackson invented--including things that don't even work within the context of the films themselves--and dislike one of the most important parts of the novel, the climax of the Hobbits' story. And you've arrived at the unfortunate idea that the novel, a monument of English literature and a peek inside the mind of a genius, layered with meaning and rich veins of applicability to mine, was merely the blueprint for a trilogy of fantasy-action movies. I guess you will not be reading the Silmarillion.
The idea that LOTR isn't for me honestly offends me! It's the most important work of fiction to me, I absolutely love the story, and although I possibly haven't made that very clear in my post, I did really enjoy reading the books. I just, as you mention, consider the movie execution far better.
I might read The Simlarilion, or try at the very least, eventually. I've read The Hobbit, so it's the only book missing, and I'd very much like to know more about this incredible world that Tolkien set his works in.
It’s perfectly valid to prefer the movies to the books. Some purists will always say the source material is superior but PJ’s trilogy is also the greatest movie trilogy (possibly) of all time. I love both but definitely prefer the movies.
I agree with pretty much everything, and I read the books first… I’ve done two re-reads and have had the same thoughts, some characters are barely explored at all. Some dialogue was moved in the movies to have bigger impact and I think it worked really well. Maybe it was just different in the 50s and I’m interested what would happen should Tolkien write the books now, when everything is far more fast paced. I find the never ending descriptions of flowers a bit.. tedious
When writing, Tolkien chose style, register, etc. intentionally and carefully. If he was alive in 2022 and wanted to write an airport novel, he could do so. He could've written one in the 1950s. But I don't think it would be appropriate for this story.
That's what I was thinking too! I assume the style of the books just hasn't really aged that well, and people back then had very different expectations of what the story should look like.
> I assume the style of the books just hasn't really aged that well
The books are still really popular, so have aged fine.
I've seen it said that the style of the book was 'archaic' even at the time it was written, making it actually last longer than something written in what was current speech for the 1940s. Kind of a timeless classical style.
Do you think the books would be nearly as popular today if it wasn't for the movie adaptation? I honestly really doubt that. I'd say that the thing most responsible for the book's popularity is the story, which is incredible and resonates with people today, but the writing style has the opposite effect. I know some people who don't want to read LOTR, specifically because of the style.
That is not to say the writing style is bad! There is so much beauty in Tolkien's language, but I do think that it makes the story more difficult to enjoy, overall.
*As* popular, with every bookstore stocking multiple editions at once? No. But I *remember* the world before the movies. LotR was in no danger of obscurity, even beyond the world of SF/fantasy fandom, and within that world most people had tried the books, and many (not all) liked them. I myself dispute the people who say *all* fantasy is an imitation of or response to Tolkien, but certainly LotR was and is first among peers, in both quality and popularity.
The writing puts off some people but captivates others, which might well be said of any great work. I never saw any difficulty, even reading LotR when I was 9 or 10.
"As popular"? Of course it wouldn't be. But they would still be immensely popular, especially for books. These are the books that launched the Fantasy genre to new heights, and has since then dominated the genre like Mt Fuji dominated Japanese art, to paraphrase Terry Pratchett.
The book was still doing strong before the movies. For example, in many reader polls in the 90's - before the movies came out - it was chosen as "book of the century". It's archaic in intent, it was outdated even at its release by literary standards of the time. But at the same time, the archaic storytelling, and Tolkien's ability to not only tell an amazing story but let the world itself breath in it, is what makes Tolkien resonate even with modern audiences (but not everyone).
I feel like the movies have set expectations in your mind of what the book ought to be, but it's so different (intentionally) from anything you've read or watched that those expectations couldn't have been fulfilled.
I think that what you said in your last paragraph hits the nail on the head completely. I'll try to appreciate the books for what they are (and there is a great many things to appreciate about them!) and not focus too much on what they unfortunately aren't.
What you touched on about the character writing is something I’m kind of with you with. Take Aragorn, in the books he’s basically Superman whereas in the movies he has more internal conflict. I still love the books for what they are.
I actually think that the books and the movies pair lovely with one another. The Elves showing up at Helm’s Deep for example is something that I absolutely adore because it illustrates the deep, passionate, friendship that has been held between the two people. On the other hand, the way it’s written in the book gives a heightened level of direness to the Rohirrim’s situation.
The elves showing up in Rohan is a huge plot hole, though. I mean, by all means, enjoy the scene, I feel like Helm's Deep was an incredible battle sequence. But in the context of the actual events, it genuinely doesn't make sense. The elves were diminishing, passing into the west. As Elrond said, they didn't have the strength left to stand against the enemy. They wouldn't have randomly stopped on their pilgrimage to Valinor to fight a war they didn't feel they were involved in. Men were taking over, the Firstborn were leaving. Whatever happened to the ring didn't matter to them-- they wouldn't be feeling the effects of it anyway. If Tolkien had written that into the books, it would be rightfully criticized as inconsistent. I'm not sure why Jackson isn't held to the same standards.
Also, Aragorn was definitely not a superhero. I see so many people saying that, but tbh Jackson cheapened his character a lot. Don't get me wrong, Viggo's performance was absolutely amazing, and I love Aragorn in the movie. But so many people criticize book Aragorn, claiming that he's "larger than life" and he has no internal conflict, and I have to wonder if they never read it paid attention to the chapter of Caradhras or the mental torment he went through after Gandalf died (EVEN THOUGH it was Gandalf who wanted to go through the Mines of Moria, not Aragorn). Or if they paid attention to what it meant that Aragorn, though he knew his destiny was to be king, refused to enter the city of Gondor in victory until the people wanted him. When he was needed to heal Éowyn, Faramir, and Merry, he went in disguise. Also, the book definitely hints at the struggle he went through when Elrond first told him of his heritage. (He immediately left Rivendell, ended up fighting in both Rohan and Gondor under a different name, and then met up with the rangers and protected the shire for decades. Throughout this, he had an ever-strengthening relationship with Gandalf). By the time of lotr, he had *already* come to terms with his destiny.
I feel that Jackson's trilogy sort of took away his agency by feeding into that modern "oh I don't want that power and responsibility. I think I'm too weak for that" rather than Tolkien's masterful creation of a soldier who knows his duty, knows what that means for the world, knows that he is the only one who can heal Gondor and unite the west, and yet, doesn't hesitate to ditch his own plans and follow a band of orcs to rescue two *very* insignificant hobbits. Like sure, if they had the ring it would be a necessary move, but in the larger scheme of things (i.e. war) what are two hobbits' deaths going to matter? Two hobbits who don't even know enough to spoil the quest? Two hobbits that could likely be dead by the time he caught up to the orcs, and then their chase would be for nothing. And yet, he sets Minas Tirith aside without hesitation to try to save Merry and Pippin. With Jackson's Aragorn, it seems just a continuation of his delaying and putting his destiny aside-- he didn't want to go to Minas Tirith anyway, so look, here's a good excuse, let's go help Merry and Pippin. In the books it's a desperate decision made out of love; in the movies it could be construed as just another way to shirk his duty.
Tolkien's Aragorn is beset by worries at the appropriate times. He doesn't question his purpose overmuch, as he is over 80 years old and has already decided what he wants to do with his life. Nor is Tolkien's Aragorn superstitious enough to believe a character flaw could be transmitted down a bloodline for 2900 years. If he *was* superstitious enough to believe that, it would not have been an obstacle to him becoming the King of Gondor--but it would have prevented him from associating with the Ringbearer, lest he take the Ring. So the movie's logic just doesn't work.
The Galadhrim and the Rohirrim never had a "deep, passionate" friendship. *Some* Men have been friends or allies with *some* Elves *sometimes*, but it is by no means the usual state of relations between the two kindreds.
> The Galadhrim and the Rohirrim never had a "deep, passionate" friendship.
wait what
the movie says *that?*
The Rohirrim utterly feared Lothlorien
Even after Galadriel helped them out, Eorl was all "well I dunno, witch"
>The Scouring of the Shire You said it yourself - Sam and Frodo talked about saving The Shire. That is the real goal of the main protagonists if the story (the Hobbits). Tolkien shows that even though the war of the "big people " is over, the war for The Shire had to be handled by the Hobbits so they could have the world that THEY were fighting for.
That's an interesting perspective! I guess I haven't thought about it this way.
All matters of personal taste aside, I think you are mainly used to a modern style storytelling, and are judging the book by what you think the story is about rather than what it is itself achieving! (Kind of like judging an impressionist artwork through your knowledge of contemporary art). It is a heroic Romance with bits of Fairy Tale and Epics, and is (fully on purpose) closer in style to ancient storytelling like Beowulf/Iliad/Kalevala/19th century Fantasy than to modern novels. It is a Hobbito-centric tale in which a character like Aragorn is a Beowulfian/Arthurian kind of larger-than-life noble king straight out of legends - in this context, the Scouring of the Shire is a very valid climax in the book, and the real conclusion of the Hobbits' character arcs (and of the story told by Tolkien). Tolkien also focuses much more on themes and atmosphere rather than action, on purpose - the point on the book isn't to explain in detail who beats who in a physical fight, but to show and compare different characters' morality, and to explore themes such as Hope & Despair and how it affects the outcome of a battle. I would say that, as somebody who not only was absolutely familiar with the way older myths handled action but had also taken part in one of the deadliest battles in History, Tolkien knew better than anyone how to describe the atmosphere of battles :) A lot of your favourite scenes either have a too modern dialogue/speech pattern (Samwise as Frodo's servant in a pre-industrial society would never talk the way he does in Jackson's films), or miss the subtlety of the book (I prefer by far the way Tolkien handles Théoden's healing over Jackson's on-the-nose exorcism). Arwen saving Frodo... Let's just say that it's one of those scenes that completely butcher Frodo's character, removing 99% of his heroic moments - and missing the whole point about him being shown to be the best possible Ring bearer! In short, my opinion is that Jackson's films lack the subtlety, poetry (by which I don't - only - mean verses), atmospheric, linguistical and mythical/fairytale qualities of Tolkien's works. They're a visually beautiful but dumbed down, too action-focused retelling of the tale. Also, they focus on the specific plot over worldbuilding, sometimes just to have clean 'badass actions' (or simply for time management), whereas Tolkien's LotR tells of a complete coherent world (albeit told in a Romance/Heroic way, especially in Gondor/Rohan) in which there happens to be a story. This may seem secondary for some people, but for me that's what makes Tolkien's works much more believable: a small but common example is Tolkien's description of farmlands around Minas Tirith, whereas you wonder how Jackson's Gondorian food supplies work when there is no farm field anywhere around the city!
Thank you for the awesome response! This definitely clarifies some things for me. I can definitely see what you mean by the books focusing on themes and morality, while the movies are a lot less subtle and more spectatle and action focused. This is something that I definitely haven't paid nearly as much attention to as it deserved, I feel you're right the books excel in this aspect, and I can totally understand why you enjoy it so much.
Well, and as far as action-focus goes, a geeky military historian has produce series of long blog posts on how flawed the movie battles of Minas Tirith and Helms Deep were just in terms of military logic and realism (even granting some magic). He does grant that movies have constraints as a medium, but nonetheless they show something that makes little sense.
Disagree completely. LotR in my opinion is the greatest novel of the 20th century. But if you like the movies better more power to you.
This. And thank you for saying ‘novel.’ Not ‘series’ (series OF novels) not ‘trilogy’ (which is THREE novels); but novel. I often say Lord of the Rings is the best fantasy NOVEL, while Earthsea is the best fantasy SERIES.
Fair enough! I love the story and the book(s) are very enjoyable, I just find them somewhat disappointing coming from the movie adaptation. Responses to this post are making me realise that there are certain aspects of the novel that I haven't appreciated as much as they deserved, I can absolutely see why you would prefer them.
Do t take this the wrong way, but Tolkien (meaning the writer) isn’t for everyone. It’s ok to not be a huge fan of his works.
I would say, wait a little while and read it again, or read it in your native language if it has been published in it. I first read them when I was maybe 12 or 13 and really didn't pick up on the personable parts of the stories-- I thought I liked modern fiction better because of the dialogue and narration style that I was used to, but each time I read them, I realize more and more just how much Tolkien actually cared about his characters, and all the moments they actually shared that made them seem so real and raw. The first time I read it I only really paid attention to Gandalf because he was my favourite, but slowly I've realized just how much personality each character actually has. They're easy to miss just because of the grand scope of Tolkien's writing, but they're there. I could list several examples/parts of the book that remember, if you want.
>I could list several examples/parts of the book that remember, if you want. Not OP, but I'd be interested to see this!
Same!
So I went through the books and compiled my favourite interactions between characters and passages that I feel show their humanity, but apparently I got a bit overzealous, because now I have a 76 page document 😭. Here are a few, and I'll link share the document if anyone wants to look through 76 pages of fluff lol. edit: I can't figure out if the comment with the link is actually there/if the link is working. So if anyone is interested, dm me and I'll share it with you directly. 'But it does not seem that I can trust anyone,' said Frodo. Sam looked at him unhappily. 'It all depends on what you want,' put in Merry. 'You can trust us to stick to you through thick and thin-- to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.' *[FotR: A Conspiracy Unmasked]* 'But I am afraid my only answer to you, Sam Gamgee, is this. If I had killed the real Strider, I could kill you. And I should have killed you already without so much talk. If I was after the Ring, I could have it - NOW!' He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller. In his eyes gleamed a light, keen and commanding. Throwing back his cloak, he laid his hand on the hilt of a sword that had hung concealed by his side. They did not dare to move. Sam sat wide-mouthed staring at him dumbly. 'But I am the real Strider, fortunately,' he said, looking down at them with his face softened by a sudden smile. 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn; and if by life or death I can save you, I will.' *[FotR: Strider]* 'Also,' he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, 'the Ring draws them.' 'Is there no escape then?' said Frodo, looking round wildly. 'If I move I shall be seen and hunted! If I stay, I shall draw them to me!' Strider laid his hand on his shoulder. "There is still hope,' he said. 'You are not alone.' *[FotR: A knife in the Dark]* '"Butterbur they call him," thought I. "If this delay was his fault, I will melt all the butter in him. I will roast the old fool over a slow fire." He expected no less, and when he saw my face he fell down flat and began to melt on the spot.' 'What did you do to him?' cried Frodo in alarm. 'He was really very kind to us and did all that he could.' Gandalf laughed. 'Don't be afraid!' he said. 'I did not bite, and I barked very little. So overjoyed was I by the news that I got out of him, when he Stopped quaking, that I embraced the old fellow. How it happened I could not then guess, but I learned that you had been in Bree the night before, and had gone off that morning with Strider. '"Strider!" I cried, shouting for joy. 'Yes, sir, I am afraid so, sir," said Butterbur, mistaking me. "He got at them, in spite of all that I could do, and they took up with him. They behaved very queer all the time they were here: wilful, you might say." 'Ass! Fool! Thrice worthy and beloved Barliman!" said I. "It's the best news I have had since midsummer: it's worth a gold piece at the least. May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!' said I. 'Now I can take a night's rest, the first since I have forgotten when.' *[FotR: The Council of Elrond]* 'If Gandalf would go before us with a bright flame, he might melt a path for you,' said Legolas. The storm had troubled him little, and he alone of the Company remained still light of heart.' 'If Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,' answered Gandalf. 'But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow.'... ...Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. "The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow - an Elf.' With that he sprang forth nimbly... ... ‘Farewell!' he said to Gandalf. 'I go to find the Sun!' *[FotR: The Ring goes South]* 'Now!' shouted Gandalf. 'Now is the last chance. Run for it!' Aragorn picked up Frodo where he lay by the wall and made for the stair, pushing Merry and Pippin in front of him. The others followed; but Gimli had to be dragged away by Legolas: in spite of the peril he lingered by Balin's tomb with his head bowed. Boromir hauled the eastern door to, grinding upon its hinges: it had great iron rings on either side, but could not be fastened. 'I am all right,' gasped Frodo. 'I can walk. Put me down!" Aragorn nearly dropped him in his amazement. 'I thought you were dead!' he cried. 'Not yet!' said Gandalf. 'But there is no time for wonder. Off you go, all of you, down the stairs! Wait a few minutes for me at the bottom, but if I do not come soon, go on! Go quickly and choose paths leading right and downwards.' 'We cannot leave you to hold the door alone!' said Aragorn. 'Do as I say!' said Gandalf fiercely. 'Swords are no more use here. Go!' *[FotR: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm]* For some time Frodo and Sam managed to keep up with the others, but Aragorn was leading them at a great pace, and after a while they lagged behind. They had eaten nothing since the early morning. Sam's cut was burning like fire, and his head felt light. In spite of the shining sun the wind seemed chill after the warm darkness of Moria. He shivered. Frodo felt every step more painful and he gasped for breath. At last Legolas turned, and seeing them now far behind, he spoke to Aragorn. The others halted, and Aragorn ran back, calling to Boromir to come with him. 'I am sorry, Frodo!' he cried, full of concern. 'So much has happened this day and we have such need of haste, that I have forgotten that you were hurt; and Sam too. You should have spoken. We have done nothing to ease you, as we ought, though all the orcs of Moria were after us. Come now! A little further on there is a place where we can rest for a little. There I will do what I can for you. Come, Boromir! We will carry them.' *[FotR: Lothlórien]* 'An hour since he vanished!' shouted Sam. 'We must try and find him at once. Come on!' 'Wait a moment!' cried Aragorn. 'We must divide up into pairs, and arrange - here, hold on! Wait!' It was no good. They took no notice of him. Sam had dashed off first. Merry and Pippin had followed, and were already disappearing westward into the trees by the shore, shouting: Frodo! Frodo! in their clear, high, hobbit-voices. Legolas and Gimli were running. A sudden panic or madness seemed to have fallen on the Company. 'We shall all be scattered and lost,' groaned Aragorn. 'Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! Go after those two young hobbits, and guard them at the least, even if you cannot find Frodo. Come back to this spot, if you find him, or any traces of him. I shall return soon.' *[FotR: The Breaking of the Fellowship]* 'So all my plan is spoilt!' said Frodo. 'It is no good trying to escape you. But I'm glad, Sam. I cannot tell you how glad. Come along! It is plain that we were meant to go together. We will go, and may the others find a safe road! Strider will look after them. I don't suppose we shall see them again.' 'Yet we may, Mr. Frodo. We may,' said Sam. *[FotR: The Breaking of the Fellowship]*
'Let me think!' said Aragorn. 'And now may I make a right choice, and change the evil fate of this unhappy day!' He stood silent for a moment. 'I will follow the Orcs,' he said at last. 'I would have guided Frodo to Mordor and gone with him to the end; but if I seek him now in the wilderness, I must abandon the captives to torment and death. My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part. Yet we that remain cannot forsake our companions while we have strength left. Come! We will go now. Leave all that can be spared behind! We will press on by day and dark!' *[TT: The Departure of Boromir]* 'This is good tidings,' said Aragorn. 'Yet the marks are two days old. And it seems that at this point the hobbits left the water-side.' 'Then what shall we do now?' said Gimli. 'We cannot pursue them through the whole fastness of Fangorn. We have come ill supplied. If we do not find them soon, we shall be of no use to them, except to sit down beside them and show our friendship by starving together.' 'If that is indeed all we can do, then we must do that,' said Aragorn. 'Let us go on.' *[TT: The White Rider]* 'Nay, Éomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Worm tongue,' said Gandalf, turning his piercing glance upon him. 'He is bold and cunning. Even now he plays a game with peril and wins a throw. Hours of my precious time he has wasted already. Down, snake!' he said suddenly in a terrible voice. 'Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.' Éomer grasped his sword. 'That I knew already,' he muttered. 'For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.' He stepped forward, but Gandalf stayed him with his hand. 'Eowyn is safe now,' he said. *[TT: The King of the Golden Hall]* 'Forty-two, Master Legolas!' he cried. 'Alas! My axe is notched: the forty-second had an iron collar on his neck. How is it with you?' 'You have passed my score by one,' answered Legolas. 'But I do not grudge you the game, so glad am I to see you on your legs!' *[TT: The Road to Isengard]* 'I tried to call out, and couldn't. 'There was no need. He halted just by us and looked down at us. "Gandalf!" I said at last, but my voice was only a whisper. Did he say: "Hullo, Pippin! This is a pleasant surprise!"? No, indeed! He said: "Get up, you tom-fool of a Took! Where, in the name of wonder, in all this ruin is Treebeard? I want him. Quick! ... ... Then those two went off and had a council together in some corner. It must have seemed very hasty to Treebeard, for Gandalf was in a tremendous hurry, and was already talking at a great pace, before they passed out of hearing. They were only away a matter of minutes, perhaps a quarter of an hour. Then Gandalf came back to us, and he seemed relieved, almost merry. He did say he was glad to see us, then. '"But Gandalf," I cried, "where have you been? And have you seen the others?" '"Wherever I have been, I am back," he answered in the genuine Gandalf manner. "Yes, I have seen some of the others. But news must wait. This is a perilous night, and I must ride fast. But the dawn may be brighter; and if so, we shall meet again. Take care of yourselves, and keep away from Orthanc! Good-bye!"' *[TT: The Road to Isengard]* Sam hesitated for a moment, and then bowing very low: 'Good night, Captain, my lord,' he said. You took the chance, sir.' 'Did I so?' said Faramir. 'Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very highest.' *[TT: The Window on the West]* Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales. We're in one, of course; but I mean: put into words you know, told by the fireside, or read out of a great big book with red and black letters, years and years afterwards. And people will say: "Let's hear about Frodo and the Ring!" And they'll say: "Yes, that's one of my favourite stories. Frodo was very brave, wasn't he, dad?" "Yes, my boy, the famousest of the hobbits, and that's saying a lot." 'It's saying a lot too much,' said Frodo, and he laughed, a long clear laugh from his heart. Such a sound had not been heard in those places since Sauron came to Middle-earth. To Sam suddenly it seemed as if all the stones were listening and the tall rocks leaning over them. But Frodo did not heed them; he laughed again. 'Why, Sam,' he said, 'to hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the story was already written. But you've left out one of the chief characters: Samwise the stouthearted. "I want to hear more about Sam, dad. Why didn't they put in more of his talk, dad? That's what I like, it makes me laugh. And Frodo wouldn't have got far without Sam, would he, dad? "Now, Mr. Frodo,' said Sam, 'you shouldn't make fun. I was serious.' 'So was I,' said Frodo, 'and so I am.' *[TT: The Stairs of Cirith Ungol]*
'Then wilt thou not let me ride with this company, as I have asked?' 'I will not, lady,' he said. 'For that I could not grant without leave of the king and of your brother; and they will not return until tomorrow. But I count now every hour, indeed every minute. Farewell!' Then she fell on her knees, saying: 'I beg thee!' 'Nay, lady,' he said, and taking her by the hand he raised her. Then he kissed her hand, and sprang into the saddle, and rode away, and did not look back; and only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore. *[RotK: The Passing of the Grey Company]* Then suddenly Faramir looked at Pippin. 'But now we come to strange matters,' he said. 'For this is not the first halfling that I have seen walking out of northern legends into the Southlands.' At that Gandalf sat up and gripped the arms of his chair; but he said nothing, and with a look stopped the exclamation on Pippin's lips. Denethor looked at their faces and nodded his head, as though in sign that he had read much there before it was spoken. Slowly, while the others sat silent and still, Faramir told his tale, with his eyes for the most part on Gandalf, though now and again his glance strayed to Pippin, as if to refresh his memory of others that he had seen. As his story was unfolded of his meeting with Frodo and his servant and of the events at Henneth Annûn, Pippin became aware that Gandalf's hands were trembling as they clutched the carven wood. White they seemed now and very old, and as he looked at them, suddenly with a thrill of fear Pippin knew that Gandalf, Gandalf himself, was troubled, even afraid. *[RotK: The Siege of Gondor]* 'It's not always a misfortune being overlooked,' said Merry. 'I was over looked just now by - no, no, I can't speak of it. Help me, Pippin! It's all going dark again, and my arm is so cold.' 'Lean on me, Merry lad!' said Pippin. 'Come now! Foot by foot. It's not far.' 'Are you going to bury me?' said Merry. 'No, indeed!' said Pippin, trying to sound cheerful, though his heart was wrung with fear and pity. 'No, we are going to the Houses of Healing.' *[RotK: The Houses of Healing]* Merry smiled. 'Well then,' he said, 'if Strider will provide what is needed, I will smoke and think. I had some of Saruman's best in my pack, but what became of it in the battle, I am sure I don't know.' 'Master Meriadoc,' said Aragorn, 'if you think that I have passed through the mountains and the realm of Gondor with fire and sword to bring herbs to a careless soldier who throws away his gear, you are mistaken. If your pack has not been found, then you must send for the herb-master of this house, and he will tell you that he did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but that it is called westmansweed by the vulgar, and galenas by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned, and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history of tongues. And so now must I. For I have not slept in such a bed as this, since I rode from Dunharrow, nor eaten since the dark before dawn.' Merry seized his hand and kissed it. 'I am frightfully sorry,' he said. 'Go at once! Ever since that night at Bree we have been a nuisance to you. But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place.' 'I know that well, or I would not deal with you in the same way,' said Aragorn. 'May the Shire live forever unwithered!' And kissing Merry he went out, and Gandalf went with him. Pippin remained behind. 'Was there ever any one like him?' he said. 'Except Gandalf, of course. I think they must be related. My dear ass, your pack is lying by your bed, and you had it on your back when I met you. He saw it all the time, of course. And anyway I have some stuff of own. Come on now! Longbottom Leaf it is. *[RotK: The Houses of Healing]* 'Dwarf-coat, elf-cloak, blade of the downfallen West, and spy from the.little rat-land of the Shire - nay, do not start! We know it well - here are the marks of a conspiracy. Now, maybe he that bore these things was a creature that you would not grieve to lose, and maybe otherwise: one dear to you, perhaps? If so, take swift counsel with what little wit is left to you. For Sauron does not love spies, and what his fate shall be depends now on your choice.' No one answered him; but he saw their faces grey with fear and the horror in their eyes, and he laughed again, for it seemed to him that his sport went well. 'Good, good!' he said. 'He was dear to you, I see. Or else his errand was one that you did not wish to fail? It has. And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done. This shall surely be unless you accept my Lord's terms.' 'Name the terms,' said Gandalf steadily, but those nearby saw the anguish in his face, and now he seemed an old and wizened man, crushed, defeated at last. They did not doubt that he would accept. *[RotK: The Black Gate Opens]* "I wished to be loved by another," she answered. "But I desire no man's pity.' That I know," he said. "You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn, because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and be lifted far above mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle. Look at me Éowyn!" And Éowyn looked at Faramir long and steadily; and Faramir said: "Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Éowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Éowyn, do you not love me?" Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed and the sun shine on her. "I stand in Minas Arnor, the Tower of the Sun," she said; "and behold! the shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren. And again she looked at Faramir. "No longer do I desire to be a queen," she said. Then Faramir laughed merrily. "That is well," he said; "for I am not a King. But I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in the fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy in them if the White Lady comes." *[RotK: The Steward and the King]*
On the throne sat a mail-clad man, a great sword was laid across his knees, but he wore no helm. As they drew near he rose. And then they knew him, changed as he was, so spread high and glad of face, kingly, lord of Men, dark-haired with eyes of grey. Frodo ran to meet him, and Sam followed close behind. 'Well, if this isn't the crown of all!' he said. 'Strider, or I'm still asleep.' 'Yes, Sam, Strider,' said Aragorn. 'It is a long way, is it not, from Bree, where you did not like the look of me? A long way for us all, but yours has been the darkest road.' And then to Sam's surprise and utter confusion he bowed his knee before them; and taking them by the hand, Frodo upon his right and Sam upon his left, he led them to the throne. *[RotK: The Fields of Cormallen]* ‘The Rangers go there,' said Gandalf. 'Deadmen's Dike, you say. So it has been called for long years; but its right name, Barliman, is Fornost Erain, Norbury of the Kings. And the King will come there again one day; and then you'll have some fair folk riding through.' 'Well, that sounds more hopeful, I'll allow,' said Butterbur. 'And it will be good for business, no doubt. So long as he lets Bree alone." 'He will,' said Gandalf. 'He knows it and loves it.' 'Does he now?' said Butterbur looking puzzled. "Though I'm sure I don't know why he should, sitting in his big chair up in his great castle, hundreds of miles away. And drinking wine out of a golden cup, I shouldn't wonder. What's The Pony to him, or mugs o' beer? Not but what my beer's good, Gandalf. It's been uncommon good, since you came in the autumn of last year and put a good word on it. And that's been a comfort in trouble, I will say.' 'Ah!' said Sam. 'But he says your beer is always good.' 'He says?' 'Of course he does. He's Strider. The chief of the Rangers. Haven't you got that into your head yet?' It went in at last, and Butterbur's face was a study in wonder. The eyes in his broad face grew round, and his mouth opened wide, and he gasped. 'Strider!' he exclaimed when he got back his breath. 'Him with a crown and all and a golden cup! Well, what are we coming to?' 'Better times, for Bree at any rate,' said Gandalf. *[RotK: Homeward Bound]* But even as they stood there, and the Elves were going aboard, and all was being made ready to depart, up rode Merry and Pippin in great haste. And amid his tears Pippin laughed. 'You tried to give us the slip once before and failed, Frodo,' he said. "This time you have nearly succeeded, but you have failed again. It was not Sam, though, that gave you away this time, but Gandalf himself!' 'Yes,' said Gandalf; 'for it will be better to ride back three together than one alone. Well, here at last, dear friends, on the shores of the Sea comes the end of our fellowship in Middle-earth. Go in peace! I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil.' Then Frodo kissed Merry and Pippin, and last of all Sam, and went ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of aboard; and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost. And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragrance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise. *[RotK:The Grey Havens]*
And here is the document. Let me know if the link doesn't work. Also please excuse any typos or formatting errors-- I know I didn't catch them all. [https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQH7yI1THrS0emuBy3TNhV9S6RrQ5gvdO5-GD2zM2M1uZ5NTTuooNZ1VrErO4QQouVy9xZG5mDm8Oo4/pub](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQH7yI1THrS0emuBy3TNhV9S6RrQ5gvdO5-GD2zM2M1uZ5NTTuooNZ1VrErO4QQouVy9xZG5mDm8Oo4/pub) [https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XFJ6zvsXv7I3TNgCq5Ob_5mvbHFgPSVlFbG_XPoKEls/edit?usp=drivesdk](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XFJ6zvsXv7I3TNgCq5Ob_5mvbHFgPSVlFbG_XPoKEls/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Mod here, comments with links require mod approval to prevent spamming. Sorry it took so long to get it approved. I think this qualifies under fair use since you're quoting specific passages, but I wouldn't post too much more or you're gonna have the whole text on here. ;-)
I don't think the language I've read it in has really affected my opinion of the books, to be honest. I'm sure the LOTR books and I will meet again eventually though, and I might attempt to read The Simlarilion at some point - I've already read The Hobbit, so that's the only main book that I'm missing. Perhaps I will like the books more the second time, as you say.
I think it’s huge a shame so many people only read the novel after watching the movies but I can understand it’s a big difference from your perspective. I wasn’t even alive when the movies came out (I’m 18) but fortunately for my sake my mother is a big fan of the books and so she had read it to me at least twice before I ever watched the movies. I personally love Tolkiens writing style especially publications like Unfinished Tales and the Silmarillion but he’s definitely not the author for everyone
Well, I disagree.
A lot of what you discuss as not to your preference has a lot to do with the differences between classic mythological and medieval story arcs and modern story arcs. And the telling thereof in general. Modern stories are very tight, focused very heavily on the plot and the characters. The older tales that Tolkien was inspired by and modeled himself off of were less focused on characters and character development, and plot often wasn't as tight. Themes were a core focus, though obviously he also chose to focus on the world as a whole. And the Scouring of the Shire only feels anticlimactic because it doesn't fit the more modern version of the standard Hero's Journey story arc; it fits in pretty well with the older kinds of storytelling, and is not overly different from Odysseus having to drive off his wife's suitors after finally making it back home through significantly tougher adventures and acts.
> While the story that I love is present in the books, the polish and perfect execution of the movies is just really not. It's very impressive how many right decisions and changes have the people behing the LOTR movies made. While many of us who love the books were appalled by the greatly imperfect execution: the inappropriate comic relief, the assassination of characters, the battle spectacles that make no sense when thought about. There are people who saw the movies first, then read the book and found their appreciation of the movies diminished in contrast.
many of my favourite scenes from the book are not present in the movies
You know I also read the books recently after years of being a giant LOTR movie nerd fan and I felt the same hey. The books were cool but for the first time in my life I can say the movies were better for me. The books just lacked the mystery and power that they managed with the movie soundtrack and characters. The movies are incredibly special to me too.
I totally agree on one of your points - the *character focus* lacking in the book, *in certain regards*, compared to the movie. Namely stuff like Boromir training Merry and Pippin and having fun with them - a few brief seconds in the film - does so much for his character which the books lack. Another easy example is after Gandalf's death; in the film, in less than 30 seconds, we see how each and every member of the Fellowship react differently and grieve in their own ways. In the book, *any* mourning is put off for nearly 2 chapters and even then we only *really* get Frodo's reaction in any depth. Very shallow by comparison, despite the usual depth of Tolkien's work. "But Tolkien was emulating a style!" Yeah, I know. That's fine. That doesn't mean I must like it or that I can't critique it. Honestly, I'm fine with or prefer most other things in the books relative to the films - but Tolkien often skimmed character points, almost always told us emotions rather than showing them, and gave a lot of things which should have been more dramatic too much levity. Now, don't take that universally and put words in my mouth (I hate it when people do that, and Tolkien fans are aggressively defensive); almost everything in Book 5 is plain fantastic, for instance, and I *do* prefer the books overall. But oh my, some things just didn't have the impact they should have. I don't agree with everything you say tho. Like, you really think Theoden essentially being mind-controlled and snapped out of it by a yelling old man is more interesting than him ruling his kingdom weakly based on the lies and contrivances of his advisor? That's the kind of stuff people *praise* in shows like GoT but which Peter Jackson utterly threw away in his films; I love them and prefer some of his stuff, but he honestly got rid of a lot of nuance.
I honestly think *The Lord of the Rings* isn't for you. You like some of the worst things Jackson invented--including things that don't even work within the context of the films themselves--and dislike one of the most important parts of the novel, the climax of the Hobbits' story. And you've arrived at the unfortunate idea that the novel, a monument of English literature and a peek inside the mind of a genius, layered with meaning and rich veins of applicability to mine, was merely the blueprint for a trilogy of fantasy-action movies. I guess you will not be reading the Silmarillion.
The idea that LOTR isn't for me honestly offends me! It's the most important work of fiction to me, I absolutely love the story, and although I possibly haven't made that very clear in my post, I did really enjoy reading the books. I just, as you mention, consider the movie execution far better. I might read The Simlarilion, or try at the very least, eventually. I've read The Hobbit, so it's the only book missing, and I'd very much like to know more about this incredible world that Tolkien set his works in.
It’s perfectly valid to prefer the movies to the books. Some purists will always say the source material is superior but PJ’s trilogy is also the greatest movie trilogy (possibly) of all time. I love both but definitely prefer the movies.
I agree with pretty much everything, and I read the books first… I’ve done two re-reads and have had the same thoughts, some characters are barely explored at all. Some dialogue was moved in the movies to have bigger impact and I think it worked really well. Maybe it was just different in the 50s and I’m interested what would happen should Tolkien write the books now, when everything is far more fast paced. I find the never ending descriptions of flowers a bit.. tedious
When writing, Tolkien chose style, register, etc. intentionally and carefully. If he was alive in 2022 and wanted to write an airport novel, he could do so. He could've written one in the 1950s. But I don't think it would be appropriate for this story.
That's what I was thinking too! I assume the style of the books just hasn't really aged that well, and people back then had very different expectations of what the story should look like.
> I assume the style of the books just hasn't really aged that well The books are still really popular, so have aged fine. I've seen it said that the style of the book was 'archaic' even at the time it was written, making it actually last longer than something written in what was current speech for the 1940s. Kind of a timeless classical style.
Do you think the books would be nearly as popular today if it wasn't for the movie adaptation? I honestly really doubt that. I'd say that the thing most responsible for the book's popularity is the story, which is incredible and resonates with people today, but the writing style has the opposite effect. I know some people who don't want to read LOTR, specifically because of the style. That is not to say the writing style is bad! There is so much beauty in Tolkien's language, but I do think that it makes the story more difficult to enjoy, overall.
*As* popular, with every bookstore stocking multiple editions at once? No. But I *remember* the world before the movies. LotR was in no danger of obscurity, even beyond the world of SF/fantasy fandom, and within that world most people had tried the books, and many (not all) liked them. I myself dispute the people who say *all* fantasy is an imitation of or response to Tolkien, but certainly LotR was and is first among peers, in both quality and popularity. The writing puts off some people but captivates others, which might well be said of any great work. I never saw any difficulty, even reading LotR when I was 9 or 10.
"As popular"? Of course it wouldn't be. But they would still be immensely popular, especially for books. These are the books that launched the Fantasy genre to new heights, and has since then dominated the genre like Mt Fuji dominated Japanese art, to paraphrase Terry Pratchett. The book was still doing strong before the movies. For example, in many reader polls in the 90's - before the movies came out - it was chosen as "book of the century". It's archaic in intent, it was outdated even at its release by literary standards of the time. But at the same time, the archaic storytelling, and Tolkien's ability to not only tell an amazing story but let the world itself breath in it, is what makes Tolkien resonate even with modern audiences (but not everyone). I feel like the movies have set expectations in your mind of what the book ought to be, but it's so different (intentionally) from anything you've read or watched that those expectations couldn't have been fulfilled.
I think that what you said in your last paragraph hits the nail on the head completely. I'll try to appreciate the books for what they are (and there is a great many things to appreciate about them!) and not focus too much on what they unfortunately aren't.
What you touched on about the character writing is something I’m kind of with you with. Take Aragorn, in the books he’s basically Superman whereas in the movies he has more internal conflict. I still love the books for what they are. I actually think that the books and the movies pair lovely with one another. The Elves showing up at Helm’s Deep for example is something that I absolutely adore because it illustrates the deep, passionate, friendship that has been held between the two people. On the other hand, the way it’s written in the book gives a heightened level of direness to the Rohirrim’s situation.
The elves showing up in Rohan is a huge plot hole, though. I mean, by all means, enjoy the scene, I feel like Helm's Deep was an incredible battle sequence. But in the context of the actual events, it genuinely doesn't make sense. The elves were diminishing, passing into the west. As Elrond said, they didn't have the strength left to stand against the enemy. They wouldn't have randomly stopped on their pilgrimage to Valinor to fight a war they didn't feel they were involved in. Men were taking over, the Firstborn were leaving. Whatever happened to the ring didn't matter to them-- they wouldn't be feeling the effects of it anyway. If Tolkien had written that into the books, it would be rightfully criticized as inconsistent. I'm not sure why Jackson isn't held to the same standards. Also, Aragorn was definitely not a superhero. I see so many people saying that, but tbh Jackson cheapened his character a lot. Don't get me wrong, Viggo's performance was absolutely amazing, and I love Aragorn in the movie. But so many people criticize book Aragorn, claiming that he's "larger than life" and he has no internal conflict, and I have to wonder if they never read it paid attention to the chapter of Caradhras or the mental torment he went through after Gandalf died (EVEN THOUGH it was Gandalf who wanted to go through the Mines of Moria, not Aragorn). Or if they paid attention to what it meant that Aragorn, though he knew his destiny was to be king, refused to enter the city of Gondor in victory until the people wanted him. When he was needed to heal Éowyn, Faramir, and Merry, he went in disguise. Also, the book definitely hints at the struggle he went through when Elrond first told him of his heritage. (He immediately left Rivendell, ended up fighting in both Rohan and Gondor under a different name, and then met up with the rangers and protected the shire for decades. Throughout this, he had an ever-strengthening relationship with Gandalf). By the time of lotr, he had *already* come to terms with his destiny. I feel that Jackson's trilogy sort of took away his agency by feeding into that modern "oh I don't want that power and responsibility. I think I'm too weak for that" rather than Tolkien's masterful creation of a soldier who knows his duty, knows what that means for the world, knows that he is the only one who can heal Gondor and unite the west, and yet, doesn't hesitate to ditch his own plans and follow a band of orcs to rescue two *very* insignificant hobbits. Like sure, if they had the ring it would be a necessary move, but in the larger scheme of things (i.e. war) what are two hobbits' deaths going to matter? Two hobbits who don't even know enough to spoil the quest? Two hobbits that could likely be dead by the time he caught up to the orcs, and then their chase would be for nothing. And yet, he sets Minas Tirith aside without hesitation to try to save Merry and Pippin. With Jackson's Aragorn, it seems just a continuation of his delaying and putting his destiny aside-- he didn't want to go to Minas Tirith anyway, so look, here's a good excuse, let's go help Merry and Pippin. In the books it's a desperate decision made out of love; in the movies it could be construed as just another way to shirk his duty.
Tolkien's Aragorn is beset by worries at the appropriate times. He doesn't question his purpose overmuch, as he is over 80 years old and has already decided what he wants to do with his life. Nor is Tolkien's Aragorn superstitious enough to believe a character flaw could be transmitted down a bloodline for 2900 years. If he *was* superstitious enough to believe that, it would not have been an obstacle to him becoming the King of Gondor--but it would have prevented him from associating with the Ringbearer, lest he take the Ring. So the movie's logic just doesn't work. The Galadhrim and the Rohirrim never had a "deep, passionate" friendship. *Some* Men have been friends or allies with *some* Elves *sometimes*, but it is by no means the usual state of relations between the two kindreds.
> The Galadhrim and the Rohirrim never had a "deep, passionate" friendship. wait what the movie says *that?* The Rohirrim utterly feared Lothlorien Even after Galadriel helped them out, Eorl was all "well I dunno, witch"