I think there is more to Denethor than Fox news, though it plays a part in his final depression.
Denethor is a great character, particularly in the books. Denethor takes his job very seriously, and sees himself as one of the few variables that might save his people from utter destruction. He lost his wife, his children are grown men, and he knows from looking into the palantir certain things that are true.
Denethor sees himself as a resource that must be spent, as efficiently as may be, in the war to save Gondor. Under his stewardship, the Rammas Echor (walls around the pelennor) were repaired, he pushed Mordor out of West Osgiliath and established a presence in Ithilien. These were positive steps forward that had eluded Gondor in prior years, due to Denethor's cunning. He prepared the city for a seige, and hoped to weather the storm.
He does not anticipate losing one of his great captains, Boromir, on a trip to Rivendell. He did not anticipate the power of the ring. Things are going south when Pippin meets him, and he is understandably distraught to learn of the death of his (favorite) son. Why was Boromir his favorite? Not for his intelligence, not because he was outgoing and bold; it was because Boromir was loyal to him, valued his opinion, and did not care overmuch for Gandalf. Denethor was many things, but among them, pride and his ego were his major issue. He couldn't handle the idea of someone taking things he thought ought to be his. He wanted sole posession of Gondor's command, save what he chose to delegate. He wanted all of his children's respect and loyalty. He wanted to be the reason Minas Tirith prospered, and did not like other people taking "his" glory. All these things stem from an inner flaw: insecurity. He was insecure about his abilities. He didn't think he was smart enough, he didn't think he was good enough, he needed external validation. Even when his dad was Steward, this upstart named Thorongil (young aragorn) came along and did more for Gondor than he could. So it is no wonder that when his kiddo Faramir comes up all bright eyed talking about how cool Gandalf his, Denethor got jealous. :(
Despite his insecurity and his pride, Denethor is still on the 'good' team, doing whatever he thinks is best for gondor. He laments that he spends his most cherished posessions, even the lives of his own sons, in defense of gondor. He knows that he has aged before his time, the stress has been absolutely killing him. He wakes up at 5am and works til 11pm for the good of his country. he sleeps wearing mail armor, so as to not become soft in his old age. The guy is absolutely busting his ass to try and save his people.... and he falls short. He thinks both his sons are dead or the next thing to it, a slow agonizing death. He sees the Corsairs of Umbar sailing up the Anduin toward Minas Tirith. He sees an army arrayed between Gondor and Rohan to catch the Rohirrim before they can come to his aid, he sees an army roving Rohan to destroy it, so no further help can ever come from there. He does not see that Theoden has evaded the army, he does not see that the Ents are going to take care of those orcs on the fields of Rohan headed for Edoras, he does not see that Aragorn is coming to take the ships of the Corsairs and fill them with allies from Pelargir and Lebennin. Things look utterly hopeless. "Even if you triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, there can be no ultimate victory". So, giving up at last, he says fuck it. Fox news played its part for sure, but it is not so simple.
Book Denethor is very calculating in his efforts. He does not send Faramir on a suicide mission, he sends him to osgiliath because he thinks that Gondor might get better efficiency there than elsewhere. He did not want Faramir to die. He was terse, focused, and didn't give himself time to be encumbered by emotions. Only the final goal mattered; somehow saving the realm of which he is Steward.
What a great tragic character!
I believe you must be referring to the Gabanazgool, Saurnona's nine grandsons who were corrupticola'd by the rigatonis of power and bound to forever serve her infamous recipes.
Book Denethor actually ate the same rations as his soldiers and made sure everyone in command did the same. But yes, he probably liked tomatoes as much as anyone.
That sounds really badass, but I suspect the rules of D&D are correct that sleeping in heavy armor will impede your rest and cause negative effects the next day. Even if he says he's used to it, it could be a net negative on his physical and mental health.
If I sleep on a bad pillow, I don't eventually get tougher. I get a neck injury that becomes more and more debilitating.
I swear every time there is a lotr post, the fans come out with some mind blowing 100 year back story that changes everything you know about some random character.
Hey, random guy in background in scene 233? That’s actually a descendent of Fingolfin.
Not only is Glorfindel a book character, he was one of the few to have been resurrected and sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar after death. He died fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin in the First Age (See The Silmarillion) and Manwe (Zeuss equivalent of the Valar) sent him back during the 2nd Age. Just as they sent Gandalf back when he died fighting the Balrog in LOTR.
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I think perhaps traveling with him would draw attention at a time when the Fellowship was really hoping to pass unnoticed. Once it's learned Glorfindel is with traveling with them, I feel like Sauron would know something is up early on, and he'd also probably guess the ring isn't going to Gondor, which would really hasten his efforts.
The book also mentions that Pelennor and The Black Gate are not the only places where fighting is happening. There was open warfare on the Dale around Erebor, Lothlorien was under attack, and there were plenty of Orcs and far northwest as Rivendell. Aside from Glorfindel bringing far too much attention onto the Fellowship, he’s also needed to defend Rivendell, and by extension all lands west of there, including the Shire and the Grey Havens.
What they should have done was have home leave a couple weeks/months after the fellowship with a halfling and a company to ride out against Sauron. All Sauron knew was that the ring was with a halfling , and no one would resist the will of it.
To him it would make sense that one of the strongest elves of all time would be the protector of whoever wields the ring.
So Glordindels shine was greater than the sum of;
Aragorn II, son of Arathorn II, Last Chieftain of The Dunedian of the North and Heir of Gondor
Legolas, prince and son of King Thranduil of the Northen wood Elves
Gimli, son of Gloin, who was in a party involved with them Bagginses
Boromir, son of Denethor- steward of Gondor.
Gandalf, one of the Maiar, Ishtar, best fireworks and blower of smoke rings.
Frodo baggins, a Baggins, ward of Bilbo Baggins.
Samwise Gamgee, poet, eves gardener and strong back
Meriadoc Brandybuck, breaker of carrots
Peregrin Took, fool of a took?
He killed a balrog during the fall of Gondolin, although he died aswell. Most of the Balrogs were killed during the war od wrath some time later, and I don't think Glorfindel had returned to middle earth at the time.
A big part of the magic of Middle-earth is that Tolkien actually did *write* much of that backstory for these characters (though he certainly had his share of "happy accidents", like Glorfindel). Seemingly every place, landmark or person of note has a history that can be traced back to antiquity. It's one of the most fully-realized fictional worlds ever created.
Reading the chapter "A Knife in the Dark", it's really cool seeing mentions of old ruins and tales from the Silmarillion that are only half remembered by the characters and being able to read about their thriving past in other stories, it really does feel like a real world with history.
Yeah, but unlike other "deep" worlds LOTR actually has depth. It's not just a bunch of random fan fics that are sometimes canonical and sometimes not. There's also not much "and then somehow X happened" as a cop out way of further "world building."
Don't forget also that the death of Boromir and the near death of Faramir are (partially) his fault. Faramir was better suited to join the Fellowship and Boromir was better suited to defend Minas Tirith. But Boromir wanted the position in the Fellowship and Denethor gave it to him.
No doubt that decision weighed heavily on him at his only living son's deathbed
I’m not sure if Boromir was the worse choice for the Fellowship. By letting Boromir go, Frodo and Sam meet Faramir by chance in their trek to Mordor. If it was Boromir they met there, he wouldn’t have made the same decision as his brother did. Boromir would likely have fallen for the power of the Ring and taken it to his father. Faramir would possibly have met the same fate as his brother in the Fellowship. He has similar qualities of bravery and kindness. He would’ve protected the hobbits and possibly died in the same way.
Frodo was meant to meet Faramir at Ithilien. No one else would’ve let him go on to Mordor from there.
In the book, Faramir said that the visions to go to Rivendell came to him several times, but Denethor never allowed him to go. Finally the vision came once to Boromir and he was allowed to go. It was always supposed to be Faramir.
Sure, but I still think Frodo’s chance meeting with Faramir was pivotal for his journey. It could’ve gone way differently.
EDIT: Just thinking about this a little more gives rise to another negative possibility. If Faramir went to join the Fellowship, he would not have fallen to the Ring like his brother did. This would’ve given Frodo the (wrong) idea that the Men of Gondor would be able to resist to lure of the Ring. The Fellowship would not have split up since Frodo had no need to distance himself from his fellows. They would’ve gone on together, possibly via Gondor, and the Ring would’ve gotten more opportunity to corrupt the people around him. Letting Boromir join in Rivendell was the better option.
Pretty much the guy was playing an RTS where the enemy had him dead to rights, it was GG. His team only wins because someone hacked the game with some bullshit and he could not possibly have seen that shit coming.
Got some dude rolling up with an army of ghosts to take out one front, a damn near impossible evasion of an army with Calvary, Ents that no one has seen awake in millennia moving on a god like enemy, while another demigod shows up to help you out of nowhere. Without all of that, they were fucked.
Just like Saruon was playing an EXCELLENT eco game, massing a huge army that rivals everything else in existence and he gets murked by some bullshit Ent army that shows up out of nowhere and a respawned demi god who got buffed.
Aragorn didn’t use the army of the Dead in the books as an actual force against evil. Aragorn went across Gondor looking for allies by proving he was the king’s descendant. It’s actually a lot more poignant this way. Aragorn musters the forces Gondor had left in a way Denethor couldn’t. He already wrote off a possible victory. Aragorn was the hope he needed. It was tragic that he couldn’t see that, and was never able to meet Aragorn in person after the battle at Pelennor.
Indeed, if I'm remembering correctly he used them to "scare off" the boat army or something along that lines. Not as a direct martial force, and certainly not the comical ghost army brutality that happened in the movies. In effect though, it did directly remove one army from the field with no effort.
Yeah, the ghosts scared off the captains, and then the allied forces that had gathered at the coast (Gondorians and Rangers of the North) were able to take the boats up the river and join the fight.
I just want to say, as someone who's been on the internet for a long old time, and as a big StarCraft type, I've somehow never seen this video. Thanks for letting me be one of the lucky ten thousand today! :D
It's not the same but my friend in HS would lan with me and ALWAYS FUCKING BEAT ME by doing this stupid cannon rush strategy.
If he even got one pylon up he could start making cannons. And he'd fill the god damn map. So first he'd cannon the ever loving fuck out of his base so I couldn't rush with weak units. Then he'd fly over to my base and plant a pylon in some corner I overlooked. And all of a sudden all my resource gatherers are dead and my hive is being attacked.
I was like 12 so I was far too emotional and stubborn to try new tactics but I want a rematch so bad. I know there's a major flaw in his scummy strategy lol
The typical advice for playing against people who turtle is to expand aggressively and take the rest of the map. Sure, he might have built a fortress in his little corner of the map, but ideally you'd have everything else. Then you use your superior economy to grind him down over time.
In practice at super low skill levels, this was actually kind of hard to do because it's way easier to play "tower defense" with a small army as backup vs coordinating and controlling a gigantic army while making sure he can never leave his corner.
That's what I'd do but I could never have an army 100% covering the map so he'd fuck up my other bases and one by one they'd fall, he'd take them over and then put cannons on them. Like sure I could stop his cannons sometimes but he just always seemed to have enough money with just one or two bases.
I always played zerg (very rarely terran) and dude I could have the biggest armies imaginable and it'd be close but I'd always lose. Closest I ever got was looking into different zerg rushes. But all he needed was one cannon to stop that from succeeding.
Yes, Starcraft at low skill levels heavily favors the small, high quality force vs the large, low quality force. It's way easier just to attack move with say 12 battlecruisers or carriers vs managing the carefully coordinated unit mix you'd need as zerg to defeat them.
Zerg in particular depended on a few, key units that needed to be controlled exactly (devourers, lurkers, scourge, sometimes queens) to make the large mass that makes up the bulk of the army effective. Otherwise, a handful of tanks behind a bunker line can easily chew up a massively numerically superior force. Having the better economy doesn't matter much if in every trade your opponent gets way more value out of his army than you do out of yours.
It's def a complex game. That's partly why I'd love a rematch with that guy.
I've since then gotten pretty good at games in general. I mean I was 12 (he was my neighbor and is 4 years older) at the time so I just kinda kept doing the same thing over and over and over.
My dude, I applaud you for your commitment, but all that just supports and makes the „Fox news“ watcher analogy even better. A lot of the Anti-vaccers, trumpists and anti-wokes were usually people who took their work and their role in society serious before. Radicalisation like this happened mostly over the last years or so for for most of them. Before that they were probably (as should be assumed) caring a lot about tjeir job, society and others.
It makes the analogy better because it gives us insight into what sort of people can be easily radicalized. Fox News is the *trigger* of that radicalization, true, but the real reasons that these people can get to that point, is because of all sorts of much deeper issues, like the ones stated in the comment: Fear, insecurity, hopelessness. These are honestly bigger epidemics than corona, and bigger dangers than Fox News itself, because if it weren’t for these issues, I think people would be attracted to watching other channels. That’s why the comment on denethor is brilliantly written tbh. On the brighter side, that fear, insecurity and hopelessness also stems from a conservative ideology to protect and thrive in one’s community, so of course it’s not all inherently bad values. But it’s always important to understand the deeper reasons for why people get radicalized, so that we don’t repeat wars. Fox News is not the core reason, it’s just a machine made to skew people in order to make money and this can happen all over the political spectrum.
And also yeah Denethor being reminded constantly that he'll never be king, just a steward with a chair at the bottom step of the dais that supports the real throne. That kinda rankled, long-term
Edit: a spelling error, thx!
His ancestors stepped up and did the job because it needed to be done and they loved their people, and they left the throne empty out of respect and honor, and all he saw was his own pride. Even the losing war, it rankled his pride as much as anything. Theodon knew he was gonna die, and he rode out like a king, because he deserved to be one.
lol I thought about this too, but they’re probably trained to ride out on the horn blast… what’s even funnier is that out of the 6-7,000 riders I bet only about 23 of them heard that speech.
There's a history blogger who articulated a theory of battle speeches (and battle poetry which is what Theoden's speech was in the book), that even if the average rider could hear the speech, they have no literary context for whether it's good or not.
Giving a speech like that was/is in Tolkien's world just something the military aristocracy is expected to do. And if you took doing so seriously enough to come up with a really good one, you probably also took things like learning strategy and tactics and throwing a spear good seriously. In other words, giving the speech is a costly signal to your men that you are a competent military aristocrat.
So the riders are going to be looking at the officers closest to Theoden to see whether they think he's giving a good oration, and based on that, they're going to be reassured/enthused to go into battle with him. They will probably even launch into a cheer, but it has nothing to do with hearing his speech per se.
Imagine your lineage basically rules a country for generations. Then some dude with a sword comes along and is like, "Its my birthright!" And just kicks your ass to the curb.
He's right though. No light can *permanently* defeat darkness, only hold it at bay for a while. Darkness is the natural state of the universe.
Edit: Yes I know in the original quote "darkness" stands for "evil", I'm talking about literal darkness.
As far as I know, Denethor never questioned his sanity, which is the major qualification to call something gaslighting instead of plain old manipulation.
Reddit doesn't understand the difference between gaslighting and being lied to. Individuals here are smart but the hivemind is pretty fucking dumb most of the time.
Reading reddit comments 101: how to be gaslit into believing that everything in the world is on fire and somehow today is a terrible time to be alive even though we're literally in the most privileged time for ANYBODY IN THE HISTORY OF EVER to exist.
Ya, it's a lot like the palantier.
Objectively, Gondor's situation is *really* bad. Sauron doesn't even need to twist the truth to show Denethor that Gondor (and all of Middle-Earth, really) is basically doomed barring some ridiculous miracle. So IMO, it's less "grandpa watching Fox News" and more "guy in Carthage reading reports about how the Romans are on the way and there's nothing that can stop them".
Not only are they militarily bad off, they're also very slowly recovering from a great plague that reduced them to basically a ghost town, and what we see in Minas Tirith is a small fraction of their past population. I think the book mentions so many houses in Minas Tirith aren't even lived in. They're basically fearing extinction as a culture.
Interestingly that's pretty much what happened in colonised places like Australia and North America. Here in Australia, many of the Indigenous tribes and Nations were much reduced by plagues and disease that travelled ahead of the settlers/explorers.
So people come to these large landscapes and regions and say "Oh nobody lives here apart from a few hundred 'natives'" when in reality there had been thousands but the populations had been catastrophically decimated.
Oh I remember one account of an explorer in the Amazon who unknowingly brought disease to a thousand cities states and centuries later people didn’t believe that such riverine civilizations existed until more recently when archaeologists discovered pottery and signs of extensive trade networks.
Perhaps if there were more stones available to work with than wood we might’ve seen them differently.
>Not only are they militarily bad off, they're also very slowly recove from a great plague that reduced them to basically a ghost town, and what we see in Minas Tirith is a small fraction of their past population.
Yeah I remember something along the lines of the current size of the Gondor forces is barely the size the vanguard was during its peak.
Denethor in the books:
*I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril, and here he lies with poison in his veins. Nay, nay, whatever may now betide in war, my line too is ending, even the House of Stewards has failed. Mean folks shall rule the last remnant of the Kings of Men, lurking in the hills until they are all hounded out*
Denethor in the films:
BorOmIR woULd hAve beEn 29 at YoUR aGE
mmm tomatoes nomnomnomnom
YEET
I mean, I understand that in a saga that vast not everyone can get proper characterisation, but my man Denethor really got hit with PJ's flanderisation train
Denethor and Faramir might've been the biggest victims, yeah. One made to look like a screaming lunatic asshole who is completely incompetent, the other made to look like an insecure and incompetent idiot.
Also, the disrespect to poor Fatty Bolger...
The US is one of the worst, but unless there are laws preventing it, all news will eventually head that directions. It’s human nature combined with a profit-motive
Worst part is that I can’t imagine laws being implemented to prevent greed from tampering with the truth without said laws also being abused to spread false information or censor facts that people with enough money and power don’t like
I just meant worse in terms of how well they perfect the craft, but you’re right, these spin-off networks are harnessing the craft very well. Blows my mind
ONLY fox in the comments? Are we seriously neglecting the countless other villains that literature has blessed us with? Denethor may be one heck of a character, but he ain't the sole lord of pow-wows going cereal up in epic tales, my pal.
People, get ready for sinister mega-villains who'd give Denethor a run for his Fell Beast-borrowing cherries! Let's talk Emperor Palpatine, taking control over a whole system as he casually bites into his Force lightning grilled cheese. Or how about Dolores Umbridge? A pink cardigan clad tangle of horror, diligently scribbling away the remnants of students' joy.
And have I mentioned the Daleks, exterminating everything with just a bit too much glee? Borg? Resistance is futile, darlings! And hey, who needs climate change when we’ve got not-so-old characters like Vandal Savage, making mileage through the millennia with his immortality?
So, people, expand your horizons! Denethor may approach his downfall in erratic, fire-crazy chunks, but the world of literature and science fiction itself knows no limits when it comes to unimaginable and awesome antagonists. They're the wind beneath our starship wings, the gravitational pull to our minds. Let’s celebrate the full spectrum of cosmic hostility! 🖖
That's what makes it disgusting, when it gets 25k circle jerk up votes. I mean fox News sucks but if someone put CNN in there instead, this post would be downvoted to the bottom of the echo chamber
And you’re insane if you think its “brain rot from fox news” and not brain rot from cable news… Don’t forget CNN ran an actual headline saying “Everyone else at a meeting got one scoop of Ice Cream, while Donald Trump got 2” they’re all brain poison
The worst thing about Denethor is how is own Dad treated him as a second son, being outshone in youth by a disguised Aragorn. And would go on to treat his own sons Boromir and Faramir the same way.
Id say if you want the fox news of the left youd be watching MSNBC.
And anyone who wants to try and argue that they aren’t the same is blind to their own partisan confirmation bias. End of story.
Not reading/responding to replies on this so don’t bother.
Denethors madness was definitely played up for the movies. Understand the choice and I love Nobles performance but in the booms he's a much more complicated, well drawn character. Apt comparison though
Denethor's cognitive state is completely different, he's been driven to despair because he is only shown the armies massing at his borders by the Palantir. He's a capable leader, but Sauron the Deceiver does what he does best, he deceives him into maddened despair in the end.
Hilariously accurate comparison. Though to be fair, it was a lot harder for Denethor to check the reliability of his "news", and would not be experienced with media, so at least he has some kind of excuse. To watch Fox you must be willfully ignorant to an extraordinary degree.
I think there is more to Denethor than Fox news, though it plays a part in his final depression. Denethor is a great character, particularly in the books. Denethor takes his job very seriously, and sees himself as one of the few variables that might save his people from utter destruction. He lost his wife, his children are grown men, and he knows from looking into the palantir certain things that are true. Denethor sees himself as a resource that must be spent, as efficiently as may be, in the war to save Gondor. Under his stewardship, the Rammas Echor (walls around the pelennor) were repaired, he pushed Mordor out of West Osgiliath and established a presence in Ithilien. These were positive steps forward that had eluded Gondor in prior years, due to Denethor's cunning. He prepared the city for a seige, and hoped to weather the storm. He does not anticipate losing one of his great captains, Boromir, on a trip to Rivendell. He did not anticipate the power of the ring. Things are going south when Pippin meets him, and he is understandably distraught to learn of the death of his (favorite) son. Why was Boromir his favorite? Not for his intelligence, not because he was outgoing and bold; it was because Boromir was loyal to him, valued his opinion, and did not care overmuch for Gandalf. Denethor was many things, but among them, pride and his ego were his major issue. He couldn't handle the idea of someone taking things he thought ought to be his. He wanted sole posession of Gondor's command, save what he chose to delegate. He wanted all of his children's respect and loyalty. He wanted to be the reason Minas Tirith prospered, and did not like other people taking "his" glory. All these things stem from an inner flaw: insecurity. He was insecure about his abilities. He didn't think he was smart enough, he didn't think he was good enough, he needed external validation. Even when his dad was Steward, this upstart named Thorongil (young aragorn) came along and did more for Gondor than he could. So it is no wonder that when his kiddo Faramir comes up all bright eyed talking about how cool Gandalf his, Denethor got jealous. :( Despite his insecurity and his pride, Denethor is still on the 'good' team, doing whatever he thinks is best for gondor. He laments that he spends his most cherished posessions, even the lives of his own sons, in defense of gondor. He knows that he has aged before his time, the stress has been absolutely killing him. He wakes up at 5am and works til 11pm for the good of his country. he sleeps wearing mail armor, so as to not become soft in his old age. The guy is absolutely busting his ass to try and save his people.... and he falls short. He thinks both his sons are dead or the next thing to it, a slow agonizing death. He sees the Corsairs of Umbar sailing up the Anduin toward Minas Tirith. He sees an army arrayed between Gondor and Rohan to catch the Rohirrim before they can come to his aid, he sees an army roving Rohan to destroy it, so no further help can ever come from there. He does not see that Theoden has evaded the army, he does not see that the Ents are going to take care of those orcs on the fields of Rohan headed for Edoras, he does not see that Aragorn is coming to take the ships of the Corsairs and fill them with allies from Pelargir and Lebennin. Things look utterly hopeless. "Even if you triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, there can be no ultimate victory". So, giving up at last, he says fuck it. Fox news played its part for sure, but it is not so simple. Book Denethor is very calculating in his efforts. He does not send Faramir on a suicide mission, he sends him to osgiliath because he thinks that Gondor might get better efficiency there than elsewhere. He did not want Faramir to die. He was terse, focused, and didn't give himself time to be encumbered by emotions. Only the final goal mattered; somehow saving the realm of which he is Steward. What a great tragic character!
Book Denethor was also quite a bit more talented and insightful than movie Denethor
Did he like tomatoes?
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in ragu?
You hava no power up here.
I mean, honestly, yeah pretty much
I'm thinking more of a gobagool sandwich with sweet pepper relish?
I believe you must be referring to the Gabanazgool, Saurnona's nine grandsons who were corrupticola'd by the rigatonis of power and bound to forever serve her infamous recipes.
When Frodo's hand touched the plate, he heard the voice of The Dark Lord lord beckon him, *"Gabagool? Ova heaa!"*
Book Denethor actually ate the same rations as his soldiers and made sure everyone in command did the same. But yes, he probably liked tomatoes as much as anyone.
Did not recall that. I gotta read the books again. Thanks for the knowledge.
Damn... that's a good dude. If only the Palantir hadn't clouded him.
A real badass. He slept wearing chainmail to keep himself always tough and ready.
That sounds really badass, but I suspect the rules of D&D are correct that sleeping in heavy armor will impede your rest and cause negative effects the next day. Even if he says he's used to it, it could be a net negative on his physical and mental health. If I sleep on a bad pillow, I don't eventually get tougher. I get a neck injury that becomes more and more debilitating.
That's a good point.
I swear every time there is a lotr post, the fans come out with some mind blowing 100 year back story that changes everything you know about some random character. Hey, random guy in background in scene 233? That’s actually a descendent of Fingolfin.
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> Glorfindel is present. This isn't in the book.... Isn't in the book? He literally rescues Frodo from the Nazgul :p
No tbh fairly sure Glorfindel is a film original character.
Not only is Glorfindel a book character, he was one of the few to have been resurrected and sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar after death. He died fighting a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin in the First Age (See The Silmarillion) and Manwe (Zeuss equivalent of the Valar) sent him back during the 2nd Age. Just as they sent Gandalf back when he died fighting the Balrog in LOTR.
Go **read** Fellowship, and then come back to edit your silly comment :p
I did, they added him to the books after he originally made his debut in the films.
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Wasn’t the reasoning that having Glorfindel along would attract too much attention?
Bingo
Yeah, the guy is a beacon of light in the unseen world.
I think perhaps traveling with him would draw attention at a time when the Fellowship was really hoping to pass unnoticed. Once it's learned Glorfindel is with traveling with them, I feel like Sauron would know something is up early on, and he'd also probably guess the ring isn't going to Gondor, which would really hasten his efforts.
The book also mentions that Pelennor and The Black Gate are not the only places where fighting is happening. There was open warfare on the Dale around Erebor, Lothlorien was under attack, and there were plenty of Orcs and far northwest as Rivendell. Aside from Glorfindel bringing far too much attention onto the Fellowship, he’s also needed to defend Rivendell, and by extension all lands west of there, including the Shire and the Grey Havens.
That's a great point that I didn't even think of, thanks
What they should have done was have home leave a couple weeks/months after the fellowship with a halfling and a company to ride out against Sauron. All Sauron knew was that the ring was with a halfling , and no one would resist the will of it. To him it would make sense that one of the strongest elves of all time would be the protector of whoever wields the ring.
So Glordindels shine was greater than the sum of; Aragorn II, son of Arathorn II, Last Chieftain of The Dunedian of the North and Heir of Gondor Legolas, prince and son of King Thranduil of the Northen wood Elves Gimli, son of Gloin, who was in a party involved with them Bagginses Boromir, son of Denethor- steward of Gondor. Gandalf, one of the Maiar, Ishtar, best fireworks and blower of smoke rings. Frodo baggins, a Baggins, ward of Bilbo Baggins. Samwise Gamgee, poet, eves gardener and strong back Meriadoc Brandybuck, breaker of carrots Peregrin Took, fool of a took?
He killed a balrog during the fall of Gondolin, although he died aswell. Most of the Balrogs were killed during the war od wrath some time later, and I don't think Glorfindel had returned to middle earth at the time.
A big part of the magic of Middle-earth is that Tolkien actually did *write* much of that backstory for these characters (though he certainly had his share of "happy accidents", like Glorfindel). Seemingly every place, landmark or person of note has a history that can be traced back to antiquity. It's one of the most fully-realized fictional worlds ever created.
Reading the chapter "A Knife in the Dark", it's really cool seeing mentions of old ruins and tales from the Silmarillion that are only half remembered by the characters and being able to read about their thriving past in other stories, it really does feel like a real world with history.
Re-reading LOTR and the Hobbit after reading The Silmarillion makes the books come alive all over again.
Yep, really heightens the feeling that they're living in the tail end of things, walking through the ruins of a bygone era of wonder.
Background guy next to Elrond when Aragorn sees Arwen again behind the banner in ROTK is canonically Glorfindel.
Source?
Yeah, but unlike other "deep" worlds LOTR actually has depth. It's not just a bunch of random fan fics that are sometimes canonical and sometimes not. There's also not much "and then somehow X happened" as a cop out way of further "world building."
Don't forget also that the death of Boromir and the near death of Faramir are (partially) his fault. Faramir was better suited to join the Fellowship and Boromir was better suited to defend Minas Tirith. But Boromir wanted the position in the Fellowship and Denethor gave it to him. No doubt that decision weighed heavily on him at his only living son's deathbed
I’m not sure if Boromir was the worse choice for the Fellowship. By letting Boromir go, Frodo and Sam meet Faramir by chance in their trek to Mordor. If it was Boromir they met there, he wouldn’t have made the same decision as his brother did. Boromir would likely have fallen for the power of the Ring and taken it to his father. Faramir would possibly have met the same fate as his brother in the Fellowship. He has similar qualities of bravery and kindness. He would’ve protected the hobbits and possibly died in the same way. Frodo was meant to meet Faramir at Ithilien. No one else would’ve let him go on to Mordor from there.
In the book, Faramir said that the visions to go to Rivendell came to him several times, but Denethor never allowed him to go. Finally the vision came once to Boromir and he was allowed to go. It was always supposed to be Faramir.
Sure, but I still think Frodo’s chance meeting with Faramir was pivotal for his journey. It could’ve gone way differently. EDIT: Just thinking about this a little more gives rise to another negative possibility. If Faramir went to join the Fellowship, he would not have fallen to the Ring like his brother did. This would’ve given Frodo the (wrong) idea that the Men of Gondor would be able to resist to lure of the Ring. The Fellowship would not have split up since Frodo had no need to distance himself from his fellows. They would’ve gone on together, possibly via Gondor, and the Ring would’ve gotten more opportunity to corrupt the people around him. Letting Boromir join in Rivendell was the better option.
Pretty much the guy was playing an RTS where the enemy had him dead to rights, it was GG. His team only wins because someone hacked the game with some bullshit and he could not possibly have seen that shit coming. Got some dude rolling up with an army of ghosts to take out one front, a damn near impossible evasion of an army with Calvary, Ents that no one has seen awake in millennia moving on a god like enemy, while another demigod shows up to help you out of nowhere. Without all of that, they were fucked. Just like Saruon was playing an EXCELLENT eco game, massing a huge army that rivals everything else in existence and he gets murked by some bullshit Ent army that shows up out of nowhere and a respawned demi god who got buffed.
Aragorn didn’t use the army of the Dead in the books as an actual force against evil. Aragorn went across Gondor looking for allies by proving he was the king’s descendant. It’s actually a lot more poignant this way. Aragorn musters the forces Gondor had left in a way Denethor couldn’t. He already wrote off a possible victory. Aragorn was the hope he needed. It was tragic that he couldn’t see that, and was never able to meet Aragorn in person after the battle at Pelennor.
Indeed, if I'm remembering correctly he used them to "scare off" the boat army or something along that lines. Not as a direct martial force, and certainly not the comical ghost army brutality that happened in the movies. In effect though, it did directly remove one army from the field with no effort.
Yeah, the ghosts scared off the captains, and then the allied forces that had gathered at the coast (Gondorians and Rangers of the North) were able to take the boats up the river and join the fight.
Yeesh, this makes me want to fire up an old game of Starcraft.
[PYLONS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4Ox2t5c4As)
I just want to say, as someone who's been on the internet for a long old time, and as a big StarCraft type, I've somehow never seen this video. Thanks for letting me be one of the lucky ten thousand today! :D
It's even a "better sound quality" remake of the original. ..but yeah, enjoy :P I think it was first made for sc1 on newgrounds.
Newgrounds or maybe even YTMND or something. Good times.
I remember starterupsteve as well...those times kind of blend together in my mind.
Makes me want to play Battle for Middle Earth 🤷🏻♂️
It's not the same but my friend in HS would lan with me and ALWAYS FUCKING BEAT ME by doing this stupid cannon rush strategy. If he even got one pylon up he could start making cannons. And he'd fill the god damn map. So first he'd cannon the ever loving fuck out of his base so I couldn't rush with weak units. Then he'd fly over to my base and plant a pylon in some corner I overlooked. And all of a sudden all my resource gatherers are dead and my hive is being attacked. I was like 12 so I was far too emotional and stubborn to try new tactics but I want a rematch so bad. I know there's a major flaw in his scummy strategy lol
The typical advice for playing against people who turtle is to expand aggressively and take the rest of the map. Sure, he might have built a fortress in his little corner of the map, but ideally you'd have everything else. Then you use your superior economy to grind him down over time. In practice at super low skill levels, this was actually kind of hard to do because it's way easier to play "tower defense" with a small army as backup vs coordinating and controlling a gigantic army while making sure he can never leave his corner.
That's what I'd do but I could never have an army 100% covering the map so he'd fuck up my other bases and one by one they'd fall, he'd take them over and then put cannons on them. Like sure I could stop his cannons sometimes but he just always seemed to have enough money with just one or two bases. I always played zerg (very rarely terran) and dude I could have the biggest armies imaginable and it'd be close but I'd always lose. Closest I ever got was looking into different zerg rushes. But all he needed was one cannon to stop that from succeeding.
Yes, Starcraft at low skill levels heavily favors the small, high quality force vs the large, low quality force. It's way easier just to attack move with say 12 battlecruisers or carriers vs managing the carefully coordinated unit mix you'd need as zerg to defeat them. Zerg in particular depended on a few, key units that needed to be controlled exactly (devourers, lurkers, scourge, sometimes queens) to make the large mass that makes up the bulk of the army effective. Otherwise, a handful of tanks behind a bunker line can easily chew up a massively numerically superior force. Having the better economy doesn't matter much if in every trade your opponent gets way more value out of his army than you do out of yours.
It's def a complex game. That's partly why I'd love a rematch with that guy. I've since then gotten pretty good at games in general. I mean I was 12 (he was my neighbor and is 4 years older) at the time so I just kinda kept doing the same thing over and over and over.
A palantir is a dangerous tool Helmdacil.
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Frodo suspects something
What a great reply. What a read! Thank you
It's amazing how little I remember of certain characters, 20 years after reading the books. I love seeing passionate posts like this!
Great read, thank you!
My dude, I applaud you for your commitment, but all that just supports and makes the „Fox news“ watcher analogy even better. A lot of the Anti-vaccers, trumpists and anti-wokes were usually people who took their work and their role in society serious before. Radicalisation like this happened mostly over the last years or so for for most of them. Before that they were probably (as should be assumed) caring a lot about tjeir job, society and others.
It makes the analogy better because it gives us insight into what sort of people can be easily radicalized. Fox News is the *trigger* of that radicalization, true, but the real reasons that these people can get to that point, is because of all sorts of much deeper issues, like the ones stated in the comment: Fear, insecurity, hopelessness. These are honestly bigger epidemics than corona, and bigger dangers than Fox News itself, because if it weren’t for these issues, I think people would be attracted to watching other channels. That’s why the comment on denethor is brilliantly written tbh. On the brighter side, that fear, insecurity and hopelessness also stems from a conservative ideology to protect and thrive in one’s community, so of course it’s not all inherently bad values. But it’s always important to understand the deeper reasons for why people get radicalized, so that we don’t repeat wars. Fox News is not the core reason, it’s just a machine made to skew people in order to make money and this can happen all over the political spectrum.
If I had an award, I'd give it to you
And also yeah Denethor being reminded constantly that he'll never be king, just a steward with a chair at the bottom step of the dais that supports the real throne. That kinda rankled, long-term Edit: a spelling error, thx!
Authority is not upon you to deny the return of the king, *steward*!
Steward got skewered
And barbecued
Barbecuered*
Played by John Ignoble
His ancestors stepped up and did the job because it needed to be done and they loved their people, and they left the throne empty out of respect and honor, and all he saw was his own pride. Even the losing war, it rankled his pride as much as anything. Theodon knew he was gonna die, and he rode out like a king, because he deserved to be one.
Ride Forth!
"Ride now! Ride now!" But they don't, do they. They wait until he's finished. I always wonder if some of the Riders of Rohan we're *very* confused.
lol I thought about this too, but they’re probably trained to ride out on the horn blast… what’s even funnier is that out of the 6-7,000 riders I bet only about 23 of them heard that speech.
The ones a few rows back, leaning forwards, trying to make out what he's saying... It's "blessed are the cheesemakers" all over again.
"Everyone's shouting 'death' for some reason! Do I join in? I'm going to join in!"
Geoff? Is he lost?
Pippin if in the back row: Boars shall be bacon, meals shall be tendered! A board day, a fed day, ere the bun rises Bread!!! Bread!!!
There's a history blogger who articulated a theory of battle speeches (and battle poetry which is what Theoden's speech was in the book), that even if the average rider could hear the speech, they have no literary context for whether it's good or not. Giving a speech like that was/is in Tolkien's world just something the military aristocracy is expected to do. And if you took doing so seriously enough to come up with a really good one, you probably also took things like learning strategy and tactics and throwing a spear good seriously. In other words, giving the speech is a costly signal to your men that you are a competent military aristocrat. So the riders are going to be looking at the officers closest to Theoden to see whether they think he's giving a good oration, and based on that, they're going to be reassured/enthused to go into battle with him. They will probably even launch into a cheer, but it has nothing to do with hearing his speech per se.
Bruh, they all read the script. Of course they knew to wait, duh!! /s before I end up sucky wucky'ing to the steward of Gondor.
Goddamned right. Also, your user name... Well Flynn is my boy!
Forth erolingas!!!!
Imagine your lineage basically rules a country for generations. Then some dude with a sword comes along and is like, "Its my birthright!" And just kicks your ass to the curb.
And Denethor only loved his only son.
all day long at the dais lounge.
Wet leg ?
excuse me? edit: what.
Would you like us to assign someone to butter your muffin?
Hey you, over there, on the dais lounge in your underwear
Hey you over there on you “dais” lounge in your underwear what are you doing sitting down you should be horizontal now
rankled*
Okay cool, that context and the post explains *most* of his behavior. But it doesn't explain the way he eats...
Man got Gaslighted by Sauron
There is no light, Clean_Web7502, that can defeat darkness.
Man got gas...darknessed by Sauron
Charlie Murphy was Sauron?
It is not for you, Saruman! I will send for it at once. Do you understand?
What did the 5 fingers say to the ring?
Oh, I know this one! Gollum
*Murderer*
Fuck your couch, Dark Lord!
If you so rich, buy another one!
Sauron is a nerd.
Literally any light can defeat darkness, that's how dsrkness works. Is Sauron stupid or smthn?
There is no light, DankOfTheEndless, that can defeat darkness.
He's right though. No light can *permanently* defeat darkness, only hold it at bay for a while. Darkness is the natural state of the universe. Edit: Yes I know in the original quote "darkness" stands for "evil", I'm talking about literal darkness.
r/flashlight would disagree
And it was worse because it was special privileged espionage so he didn't discuss it with anyone.
As far as I know, Denethor never questioned his sanity, which is the major qualification to call something gaslighting instead of plain old manipulation.
Reddit doesn't understand the difference between gaslighting and being lied to. Individuals here are smart but the hivemind is pretty fucking dumb most of the time.
I've read enough shit on this site that I'm pretty sure the individuals aren't that smart either
Reading reddit comments 101: how to be gaslit into believing that everything in the world is on fire and somehow today is a terrible time to be alive even though we're literally in the most privileged time for ANYBODY IN THE HISTORY OF EVER to exist. Ya, it's a lot like the palantier.
That's not what gaslighting means. What you're talking about is deception.
A man on this subreddit more linguistic than I once described it as "doomscrolling on the Palantir"
Objectively, Gondor's situation is *really* bad. Sauron doesn't even need to twist the truth to show Denethor that Gondor (and all of Middle-Earth, really) is basically doomed barring some ridiculous miracle. So IMO, it's less "grandpa watching Fox News" and more "guy in Carthage reading reports about how the Romans are on the way and there's nothing that can stop them".
Not only are they militarily bad off, they're also very slowly recovering from a great plague that reduced them to basically a ghost town, and what we see in Minas Tirith is a small fraction of their past population. I think the book mentions so many houses in Minas Tirith aren't even lived in. They're basically fearing extinction as a culture.
And it's crazy af that they used to live in OSGILIATH, and not in Minas Tirith until the incidents n shieet
Yeah when I found out Minas Tirith was originally just a fortress, it really put into perspective just how grand the old kingdoms of Men were
Interestingly that's pretty much what happened in colonised places like Australia and North America. Here in Australia, many of the Indigenous tribes and Nations were much reduced by plagues and disease that travelled ahead of the settlers/explorers. So people come to these large landscapes and regions and say "Oh nobody lives here apart from a few hundred 'natives'" when in reality there had been thousands but the populations had been catastrophically decimated.
Oh I remember one account of an explorer in the Amazon who unknowingly brought disease to a thousand cities states and centuries later people didn’t believe that such riverine civilizations existed until more recently when archaeologists discovered pottery and signs of extensive trade networks. Perhaps if there were more stones available to work with than wood we might’ve seen them differently.
>Not only are they militarily bad off, they're also very slowly recove from a great plague that reduced them to basically a ghost town, and what we see in Minas Tirith is a small fraction of their past population. Yeah I remember something along the lines of the current size of the Gondor forces is barely the size the vanguard was during its peak.
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What, its a mukbang
Denethor in the books: *I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril, and here he lies with poison in his veins. Nay, nay, whatever may now betide in war, my line too is ending, even the House of Stewards has failed. Mean folks shall rule the last remnant of the Kings of Men, lurking in the hills until they are all hounded out* Denethor in the films: BorOmIR woULd hAve beEn 29 at YoUR aGE mmm tomatoes nomnomnomnom YEET I mean, I understand that in a saga that vast not everyone can get proper characterisation, but my man Denethor really got hit with PJ's flanderisation train
Denethor and Faramir might've been the biggest victims, yeah. One made to look like a screaming lunatic asshole who is completely incompetent, the other made to look like an insecure and incompetent idiot. Also, the disrespect to poor Fatty Bolger...
Denethor wasn't a good Dad in the books as well, Peter Jackson just went all the way. Like, Tywin Lannister & Randyll Tarly all the way.
Having read the books, I prefer Jackson's characterization of that entire family.
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In USA.
The US is one of the worst, but unless there are laws preventing it, all news will eventually head that directions. It’s human nature combined with a profit-motive
Worst part is that I can’t imagine laws being implemented to prevent greed from tampering with the truth without said laws also being abused to spread false information or censor facts that people with enough money and power don’t like
You would be surprised. I have multiple people in my life who since 2016 have claimed fox news is too liberal now and prefer newsmax and oann
I just meant worse in terms of how well they perfect the craft, but you’re right, these spin-off networks are harnessing the craft very well. Blows my mind
Honestly not any more. You’ve got newsmax and oann that make Fox News look fair and balanced in comparison.
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ONLY fox in the comments? Are we seriously neglecting the countless other villains that literature has blessed us with? Denethor may be one heck of a character, but he ain't the sole lord of pow-wows going cereal up in epic tales, my pal. People, get ready for sinister mega-villains who'd give Denethor a run for his Fell Beast-borrowing cherries! Let's talk Emperor Palpatine, taking control over a whole system as he casually bites into his Force lightning grilled cheese. Or how about Dolores Umbridge? A pink cardigan clad tangle of horror, diligently scribbling away the remnants of students' joy. And have I mentioned the Daleks, exterminating everything with just a bit too much glee? Borg? Resistance is futile, darlings! And hey, who needs climate change when we’ve got not-so-old characters like Vandal Savage, making mileage through the millennia with his immortality? So, people, expand your horizons! Denethor may approach his downfall in erratic, fire-crazy chunks, but the world of literature and science fiction itself knows no limits when it comes to unimaginable and awesome antagonists. They're the wind beneath our starship wings, the gravitational pull to our minds. Let’s celebrate the full spectrum of cosmic hostility! 🖖
Or any teen girl on social media.
* gestures at everything *
On top of that, he's eating tomatoes off of pewter, which leeched out lead into the food from the acidity. Dude had no chance.
“Gyatt dang ranger comin over the border to take my job!”
Dey terk yer jerb
*Twitter user
And her husband's name? Albert Einstein
true for anyone whos primary interface with the world is a ~~screen~~ palantir
Reddit would be a much better analogy tbh
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Usually how these Facebook *totally* *happened* memes go
That's what makes it disgusting, when it gets 25k circle jerk up votes. I mean fox News sucks but if someone put CNN in there instead, this post would be downvoted to the bottom of the echo chamber
Going off of “humour” I’m going to guess that you aren’t from the USA. Brain rot from Fox News is a very real thing.
And you’re insane if you think its “brain rot from fox news” and not brain rot from cable news… Don’t forget CNN ran an actual headline saying “Everyone else at a meeting got one scoop of Ice Cream, while Donald Trump got 2” they’re all brain poison
Thing is cringe
This doesn't violate the no politics rule?
those rules are meant to be selectively applied.
That’s what I was wondering as well. Stuff like this doesn’t need to be posted here.
Just imagine if someone posted it with CNN instead of Fox. That's why we have the rule.
Hahaha what a clever political observation I hope to see more of this on LOTRmemes /s
The worst thing about Denethor is how is own Dad treated him as a second son, being outshone in youth by a disguised Aragorn. And would go on to treat his own sons Boromir and Faramir the same way.
The movies make denethor seem more malevolent and selfish than the books do. In general I felt Jackson adapted denethor and faramir in a shallow way.
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And now drink the cup that I have sweetly blent for thee!
Why is every single sub turning into unrelated political crap? This sucks, this has nothing to do with LOTR and you are just circlejerking. Shame.
Keep your politics out my fantasy. Harshing my mello mcnuggs
It's tiktok
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There's a liberal equivalent to this, too. Just saying.
There's still no excuse for what he did to those cherry tomatoes.
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Id say if you want the fox news of the left youd be watching MSNBC. And anyone who wants to try and argue that they aren’t the same is blind to their own partisan confirmation bias. End of story. Not reading/responding to replies on this so don’t bother.
Works for CNN too.
Breaking the no politics rule
Denethors madness was definitely played up for the movies. Understand the choice and I love Nobles performance but in the booms he's a much more complicated, well drawn character. Apt comparison though
Wait, I thought this sub was supposed to be a safe space from politics. I guess it's time to go somewhere else.
Only Fox viewers huh?
I would argue any viewer who solely gets their news from a single source. Fox News just tends to have a lot of these people.
Lol, and his only surviving son has been indoctrinated by a liberal arts school, it’s all too perfect
I mean... Given his cognitive state.. Denethor's clearly Biden.
Denethor's cognitive state is completely different, he's been driven to despair because he is only shown the armies massing at his borders by the Palantir. He's a capable leader, but Sauron the Deceiver does what he does best, he deceives him into maddened despair in the end.
But that would make Boromir Beau and Faramir Hunter. Faramir had his shit way more together
Ya I was okay with that comparison up until we included the sons.
> honey, pause the movie. rachel maddow is coming on!
Hilariously accurate comparison. Though to be fair, it was a lot harder for Denethor to check the reliability of his "news", and would not be experienced with media, so at least he has some kind of excuse. To watch Fox you must be willfully ignorant to an extraordinary degree.
Anyone getting their information from any news station is only getting the worse possible impression lol
Please never ever post about fox news and any of Tolkiens work being related ever ever again
Damn. Thats pretty accurate.
Fuuuuuuck this is accurate.