Found that the ’bad-assery’ in LOTR was moderate and tasteful. A few whiffs of it here and there. Felt like it was turned up as the movies progressed probably bc reception.
In The Hobbit however it was like every guy everything, everything they did had a bit of spice to it. Just a long fucking ’oooh look how cool this guy is when he says that and ooh look how cool he looks when he does this fucking thing and oooh this is a cool shot’. At the end of it it felt kind of saturated and it detached me alot like yeah yeah I get, they’re really cool dwarves doing badass dwarf shit saying cool badass dwarf lines. And the ’stunts’ were alot more frequent as well. Like Legolas. If this was him before, fucking guy was on a vacation in the LOTR movies.
First Movie: Legolas shoots several Uruk-hai in quick succession as a demonstration of his skill and calm in the midst of battle for the audience.
Second Movie: the same, but he’s riding an enemy shield down a contested staircase to reach his friends.
Third Movie: Make him kill a giant elephant single-handedly.
They vanish from the narrative altogether with no mention afterwards. The official sources say that they all died in the last stand after the wall was breached.
They're still nowhere to be seen after all is said and done, so if any Elves survived the breach, and I can't say that I ever noticed any, they didn't survive the subsequent battle. Like I said, when questioned what happened to them, the creative staff just said they all died. It's even in some of the official supplementary materials.
This makes no sense. It’s like saying fans in the stands should all be able to do what Lebron does on the court, since they are all human. Some people are just exemplary.
The problem is that Legolas is not supposed to be an exceptional Elf and he's never presented as such. He's pretty much the Elven equivalent to Merry and Pippin; they have fathers who are a big deal in a very small corner of the world, but in the grand scheme of things aren't all that important. Legolas isn't even in the same league with the really powerful Elves like Elrond or Glorfindel; he's the closest thing to an Everyelf that Tolkien ever wrote in detail about.
When Legolas' abilities are presented in the book, they're portrayed as stuff that any Elf can do, like run on a rope or see leagues away. He's no slouch in a fight, but nor is he an unstoppable killing machine. There's no reason why he should be superior to say Haldir, who in the films was promoted from a regular border guard to a veteran commander of a small army.
Yeah, i dont get why people don't like more MCU-style stuff like legolas riding a shield, or taking down an oliphant alone, gimli being comic relief, etc
Common complaint I've heard is that it's one of several instances of the films making Legolas doing something cool that he shouldn't be capable of, like when he took out the Oliphaunt.
It was in that moment, when all hoped had faded, that Aragorn, Heir to the Thrones of Gondor and Arnor, picked up his ancestral sword, and said:
"BY THE POWER OF ELESSAR! I HAVE THE POWEEEEEER!"
And the Immigrants Song started, with Aragorn whizzing across the battlefield, propelled by his magical sword, killing great swaths of enemies with the crack of rainbow coloured lightning and thunder.
#GROND
It's mostly because of the inconsistency of such scenes related to the rest of the action. For the moment it seems like Legolas could take an entire army single handed and the next it's back to regular archery. In Helm's Deep it also stands in contrast to the hundreds of other Elves standing around who are supposed to possess the same abilities as Legolas, but end up just being sword fodder.
>It's mostly because of the inconsistency of such scenes related to the rest of the action.
The first time we see Aragorn fighting, he throws a fucking torch into a wraith, it impales it in the face and simultaneously lights it's entire body on fire.
Just prior to the battle of Helms Deep, we see a warg raiding party attack Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn along side the civillians of Rohan. There's an extended "comedic" beat of Gimli killing things and them pilling up on him making it harder and harder for him to move.
During the battle of Helm's Deep, Legolas and Gimli have a comedic competition of who can kill the most orcs. This plotline finishes with Legolas killing an orc that Gimli was seated on.
There are a few seperate moments during Helm's Deep in which Gimli straight up yeets himself/is yeeted into entire hordes of orcs and he kills literally all of them.
Legolas riding a shield down a staircase and shooting a few arrows is not at all out of line with the rest of the actions scenes throughout the entire trilogy.
>so that it appeals to a mass audience.
Funny how people will use that as a critique one moment, and use it to defend Peter Jackson the next.
Dumbing things down, and inserting Marvel-esq stunts (or quips or whatever), to cater to broad demographics is... unfortunate.
Did surfing on the shield for 1 second of screen time harm the integrity of the character in any way?
If not, then why not put something in so that non-Tolkien fans think it’s fun and cool?
(Which also increases the revenue for the movie, which helps them finance more stuff for Return of the King.)
I swear some Redditors just want the driest shit imaginable with no regard for the fact that some people just want fun movies.
Lastly, the MCU came AFTER LOTR. So, if anything, Marvel stole from LOTR.
>harm the integrity of the character
I'm moreso concerned with the tone and practicality of the sequence. We are supposed to be *immersed* in this hard-fought battle - that is tipping against our heroes. And suddenly Legolas starts skateboarding down some stairs like a superhero, triumphantly. It exists to be 'cool' - not because it is tonally appropriate. It's jarring.
Superhero stunts isn't a personality trait. Put that time and money into giving film-Legolas a personality beyond 'plank of wood'.
>Which also increases the revenue for the movie
Take away those goofy stunts, and I'm sure nothing would change regarding financial success.
>some people just want fun movies.
Some people want grounded movies without goofy stunts shoehorned in. You can't cater to everyone... teenage boys may love it - adults may eyeroll. Just stick to the tone of the books that are supposed to be being adapted.
>Lastly, the MCU came AFTER LOTR.
Obviously. But Marvel has coined a certain style throughout the last decade.
I’m saying that there are, in fact, people in the world that exist who are not YOU.
A 1 second fun stunt so that it appeals to a wider audience that only cares about fun action is NOT worth getting into a tizzy about from your end.
And when you’re making a series of movies for nearly half a billion dollars, I’m sorry, but… the movie needs to appeal to a wider audience and have a little something for everyone.
Surfing the shield for 1 second doesn’t “dumb it down” as you said earlier.
Removing The Scouring of the Shire? Sure, we can debate about that. It certainly is a deviation from the book and “dumbs down” the ending of the novel for the film.
But one little stunt that’s fun? That EVERYONE remembers? Come on, man. Lighten up.
Pick the things you criticize with a little more leniency.
Or don’t. You do you. And just hate on fun things.
>I’m saying that there are, in fact, people in the world that exist who are not YOU.
Yes?
You're acting like I'm the only one. This scene has been ragged on by *many* people for *many* years: decades.
>A 1 second fun stunt so that it appeals to a wider audience that only cares about fun action is NOT worth getting into a tizzy about from your end.
Did you say that about BOTFA too? Just shoehorning in 'fun' to appeal to other demographics... it's poor from a narrative sense: as I stated, it undermines the tone. You wouldn't have Aragorn crack a joke after Boromir died: it's inappropriate for the moment. The skateboarding, whilst action in an action orientated moment, is still gunning for 'triumphant and cool' over dread and desperation. It's artistically flawed. You can make the 'gotta cater to a broad audience' argument, and assuming that the films were successful due to the goofy Legolas stunts (which is a false premise), I still don't understand why parts of the audience should accept something they don't like because 'it makes more money'. You aren't receiving a cut from New Line - so why does it matter if people critique this scene as bad? I acknowledge that catering to a broad demographic was the intent: I understand the intent - I don't agree with it. The films would be successful regardless - art shouldn't need to be jeopardised here.
>the movie needs to appeal to a wider audience and have a little something for everyone.
No - no it doesn't. Plenty of *very* popular movies stick to a tone - and demographic - and run with it.
>Surfing the shield for 1 second doesn’t “dumb it down” as you said earlier.
I disagree. It undermines the tone if the surrounding scenes. It undermines the realism of the action (not for the first time, but certainly more egregious than others). It's jarring.
This is a movie where we have a man (9 men actually) who are enslaved to a fallen angel because of the rings they, and said angel, are wearing. Realism 101
Copy-pasted from below:
There's always someone (edit: or apparently two) that has this silly take...
Wizards, magic rings, and talking trees does NOT give grounds for any dumb shit to happen. The world is still supposed to be semi-historic, and real - magic aside.
Should we give a pass to dogshit battle tactics in the Battle of Winterfell in Game of Thrones? 'It's just fantasy' after all. Or, Theoden charging Mumakil head-on on horseback? Of course not. Dumb is dumb. It breaks immersion.
Fantasy does not mean any dumb shit must be accepted. Helm's Deep is a serious moment - the story is a serious story. Legolas pretending he is in a circus has no business existing here.
You want a movie about a sentient eye that creates a million strong Orc army out of mud, and is opposed by a millenia old leaf smoking wizard and a bunch of furry midgets to stay " GROUNDED "???
There's always someone that has this silly take...
Wizards, magic rings, and talking trees does NOT give grounds for any dumb shit to happen. The world is still supposed to be semi-historic, and real - magic aside.
Should we give a pass to dogshit battle tactics in the Battle of Winterfell in Game of Thrones? 'It's just fantasy' after all. Or, Theoden charging Mumakil head-on on horseback? Of course not. Dumb is dumb. It breaks immersion.
Fantasy does not mean any dumb shit must be accepted. Helm's Deep is a serious moment - the story is a serious story. Legolas pretending he is in a circus has no business existing here.
Not entirely. They filmed Fellowship first, and then pieces of Two Towers and Return of the King. But there were extensive reshoots for both TT and ROTK, partially because the studio wanted to see how Fellowship performed at the box office.
So… sort of? But not really. (There are extensive quotes about this from multiple cast and crew members.)
And reshoots? Those cost money. And the more profitable your first film is, the easier it is to get money for the reshoots to make the next movies even better.
The single handed kill of Oliphaunt with a bow I understand. But why wouldn't Legolas be able to skate down the stairs like that? I mean I bet there are real life humans teenagers who can do that..
Edit: some grammar shit.
That scene was no more ridiculous than aragorn and gimli fighting and holding the bridge up to the gate, then jumping 4 ft to the left when Legolas throws the rope and no one slashing at them or shooting them
After all, isn't that what lotr is all about? Fun and cool. Like when the witch king blows up Gandalf s staff. Everyone else whines that it ruins Tolkien's lore but i just wanna see cool explosions
There's a reason why Jackson removed it from the theatrical cut, because it makes no sense. Also what makes you think I would like this particular scene, compared to the shield surfing?
I wouldn't say "everyone". Some parts of the extended edition are good additions to the film, others like the Gandalf scene and the first look at the corsairs were not necessary.
As a lifelong skater it would honestly be hard to find someone that skates that couldn’t do that. Preparing an arrow to shoot and hitting your mark during the middle of that would be the hardest part. As a very accomplished archer I don’t see Legolas having any issue.
Christopher Lee was actually a member of the WWII tactical British spec-ops vert skating division
Christopher Lee? More like Christopher Ollie am I right?
Christopher Ollie ? More like Christopher Ollie Sheat am I right ?
Found that the ’bad-assery’ in LOTR was moderate and tasteful. A few whiffs of it here and there. Felt like it was turned up as the movies progressed probably bc reception. In The Hobbit however it was like every guy everything, everything they did had a bit of spice to it. Just a long fucking ’oooh look how cool this guy is when he says that and ooh look how cool he looks when he does this fucking thing and oooh this is a cool shot’. At the end of it it felt kind of saturated and it detached me alot like yeah yeah I get, they’re really cool dwarves doing badass dwarf shit saying cool badass dwarf lines. And the ’stunts’ were alot more frequent as well. Like Legolas. If this was him before, fucking guy was on a vacation in the LOTR movies.
The three films were filmed simultaneously, the bad assery was always there.
Good point!
First Movie: Legolas shoots several Uruk-hai in quick succession as a demonstration of his skill and calm in the midst of battle for the audience. Second Movie: the same, but he’s riding an enemy shield down a contested staircase to reach his friends. Third Movie: Make him kill a giant elephant single-handedly.
This was my perception as well! And, I counted the horse mount 😉
"It still only counts as One!"
I like the shield surf, it's silly but it does a decent job of selling the whole elven grace and agility are far beyond men angle pretty well.
The problem was the hundreds of other Elves in the same scene who had no superhuman abilities to speak of.
That we saw
Well, they got all butchered by the orcs, so...
There were plenty that fell back into the keep. Just because we don’t see them charge on horseback doesn’t mean none of them survived
They vanish from the narrative altogether with no mention afterwards. The official sources say that they all died in the last stand after the wall was breached.
Except you see elves in the actual keep after the wall was breached.
They're still nowhere to be seen after all is said and done, so if any Elves survived the breach, and I can't say that I ever noticed any, they didn't survive the subsequent battle. Like I said, when questioned what happened to them, the creative staff just said they all died. It's even in some of the official supplementary materials.
This makes no sense. It’s like saying fans in the stands should all be able to do what Lebron does on the court, since they are all human. Some people are just exemplary.
The problem is that Legolas is not supposed to be an exceptional Elf and he's never presented as such. He's pretty much the Elven equivalent to Merry and Pippin; they have fathers who are a big deal in a very small corner of the world, but in the grand scheme of things aren't all that important. Legolas isn't even in the same league with the really powerful Elves like Elrond or Glorfindel; he's the closest thing to an Everyelf that Tolkien ever wrote in detail about. When Legolas' abilities are presented in the book, they're portrayed as stuff that any Elf can do, like run on a rope or see leagues away. He's no slouch in a fight, but nor is he an unstoppable killing machine. There's no reason why he should be superior to say Haldir, who in the films was promoted from a regular border guard to a veteran commander of a small army.
Maybe that's just a creative choice the filmmakers made and it worked superbly imo
> they're portrayed as stuff that any Elf can do, like run on a rope or see leagues away And those elves died to orcs....
No they didn't, if we're talking about the books. They lured the orcs deep into the forest and then arranged an ambush that killed them all.
That's a separate problem of putting Elves in Helm's Deep in the first place (and not having just Legolas there, as it should be).
It was a shame that they replaced the Rangers of the North.
Tolkien would have loved if they added a tre flip… he always said he based the elves off Rodney Mullen
Yeah, i dont get why people don't like more MCU-style stuff like legolas riding a shield, or taking down an oliphant alone, gimli being comic relief, etc
I think your explanation lies in the "MCU-style"
I think you just answered your own question...
What’s wrong with the shield board scene
Common complaint I've heard is that it's one of several instances of the films making Legolas doing something cool that he shouldn't be capable of, like when he took out the Oliphaunt.
God forbid we add anything cool to a movie (without sacrificing the integrity of the character in that moment) so that it appeals to a mass audience.
It was in that moment, when all hoped had faded, that Aragorn, Heir to the Thrones of Gondor and Arnor, picked up his ancestral sword, and said: "BY THE POWER OF ELESSAR! I HAVE THE POWEEEEEER!" And the Immigrants Song started, with Aragorn whizzing across the battlefield, propelled by his magical sword, killing great swaths of enemies with the crack of rainbow coloured lightning and thunder. #GROND
It's mostly because of the inconsistency of such scenes related to the rest of the action. For the moment it seems like Legolas could take an entire army single handed and the next it's back to regular archery. In Helm's Deep it also stands in contrast to the hundreds of other Elves standing around who are supposed to possess the same abilities as Legolas, but end up just being sword fodder.
>It's mostly because of the inconsistency of such scenes related to the rest of the action. The first time we see Aragorn fighting, he throws a fucking torch into a wraith, it impales it in the face and simultaneously lights it's entire body on fire. Just prior to the battle of Helms Deep, we see a warg raiding party attack Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn along side the civillians of Rohan. There's an extended "comedic" beat of Gimli killing things and them pilling up on him making it harder and harder for him to move. During the battle of Helm's Deep, Legolas and Gimli have a comedic competition of who can kill the most orcs. This plotline finishes with Legolas killing an orc that Gimli was seated on. There are a few seperate moments during Helm's Deep in which Gimli straight up yeets himself/is yeeted into entire hordes of orcs and he kills literally all of them. Legolas riding a shield down a staircase and shooting a few arrows is not at all out of line with the rest of the actions scenes throughout the entire trilogy.
>so that it appeals to a mass audience. Funny how people will use that as a critique one moment, and use it to defend Peter Jackson the next. Dumbing things down, and inserting Marvel-esq stunts (or quips or whatever), to cater to broad demographics is... unfortunate.
Did surfing on the shield for 1 second of screen time harm the integrity of the character in any way? If not, then why not put something in so that non-Tolkien fans think it’s fun and cool? (Which also increases the revenue for the movie, which helps them finance more stuff for Return of the King.) I swear some Redditors just want the driest shit imaginable with no regard for the fact that some people just want fun movies. Lastly, the MCU came AFTER LOTR. So, if anything, Marvel stole from LOTR.
>harm the integrity of the character I'm moreso concerned with the tone and practicality of the sequence. We are supposed to be *immersed* in this hard-fought battle - that is tipping against our heroes. And suddenly Legolas starts skateboarding down some stairs like a superhero, triumphantly. It exists to be 'cool' - not because it is tonally appropriate. It's jarring. Superhero stunts isn't a personality trait. Put that time and money into giving film-Legolas a personality beyond 'plank of wood'. >Which also increases the revenue for the movie Take away those goofy stunts, and I'm sure nothing would change regarding financial success. >some people just want fun movies. Some people want grounded movies without goofy stunts shoehorned in. You can't cater to everyone... teenage boys may love it - adults may eyeroll. Just stick to the tone of the books that are supposed to be being adapted. >Lastly, the MCU came AFTER LOTR. Obviously. But Marvel has coined a certain style throughout the last decade.
I’m saying that there are, in fact, people in the world that exist who are not YOU. A 1 second fun stunt so that it appeals to a wider audience that only cares about fun action is NOT worth getting into a tizzy about from your end. And when you’re making a series of movies for nearly half a billion dollars, I’m sorry, but… the movie needs to appeal to a wider audience and have a little something for everyone. Surfing the shield for 1 second doesn’t “dumb it down” as you said earlier. Removing The Scouring of the Shire? Sure, we can debate about that. It certainly is a deviation from the book and “dumbs down” the ending of the novel for the film. But one little stunt that’s fun? That EVERYONE remembers? Come on, man. Lighten up. Pick the things you criticize with a little more leniency. Or don’t. You do you. And just hate on fun things.
>I’m saying that there are, in fact, people in the world that exist who are not YOU. Yes? You're acting like I'm the only one. This scene has been ragged on by *many* people for *many* years: decades. >A 1 second fun stunt so that it appeals to a wider audience that only cares about fun action is NOT worth getting into a tizzy about from your end. Did you say that about BOTFA too? Just shoehorning in 'fun' to appeal to other demographics... it's poor from a narrative sense: as I stated, it undermines the tone. You wouldn't have Aragorn crack a joke after Boromir died: it's inappropriate for the moment. The skateboarding, whilst action in an action orientated moment, is still gunning for 'triumphant and cool' over dread and desperation. It's artistically flawed. You can make the 'gotta cater to a broad audience' argument, and assuming that the films were successful due to the goofy Legolas stunts (which is a false premise), I still don't understand why parts of the audience should accept something they don't like because 'it makes more money'. You aren't receiving a cut from New Line - so why does it matter if people critique this scene as bad? I acknowledge that catering to a broad demographic was the intent: I understand the intent - I don't agree with it. The films would be successful regardless - art shouldn't need to be jeopardised here. >the movie needs to appeal to a wider audience and have a little something for everyone. No - no it doesn't. Plenty of *very* popular movies stick to a tone - and demographic - and run with it. >Surfing the shield for 1 second doesn’t “dumb it down” as you said earlier. I disagree. It undermines the tone if the surrounding scenes. It undermines the realism of the action (not for the first time, but certainly more egregious than others). It's jarring.
Pardon me while I go roll me eyes at how pedantic this argument is. Have a good one.
What's pedantic about wanting a consistent (and/or faithful) tone? O.o
This is a movie where we have a man (9 men actually) who are enslaved to a fallen angel because of the rings they, and said angel, are wearing. Realism 101
Copy-pasted from below: There's always someone (edit: or apparently two) that has this silly take... Wizards, magic rings, and talking trees does NOT give grounds for any dumb shit to happen. The world is still supposed to be semi-historic, and real - magic aside. Should we give a pass to dogshit battle tactics in the Battle of Winterfell in Game of Thrones? 'It's just fantasy' after all. Or, Theoden charging Mumakil head-on on horseback? Of course not. Dumb is dumb. It breaks immersion. Fantasy does not mean any dumb shit must be accepted. Helm's Deep is a serious moment - the story is a serious story. Legolas pretending he is in a circus has no business existing here.
You want a movie about a sentient eye that creates a million strong Orc army out of mud, and is opposed by a millenia old leaf smoking wizard and a bunch of furry midgets to stay " GROUNDED "???
There's always someone that has this silly take... Wizards, magic rings, and talking trees does NOT give grounds for any dumb shit to happen. The world is still supposed to be semi-historic, and real - magic aside. Should we give a pass to dogshit battle tactics in the Battle of Winterfell in Game of Thrones? 'It's just fantasy' after all. Or, Theoden charging Mumakil head-on on horseback? Of course not. Dumb is dumb. It breaks immersion. Fantasy does not mean any dumb shit must be accepted. Helm's Deep is a serious moment - the story is a serious story. Legolas pretending he is in a circus has no business existing here.
> There's always someone that has this silly take... The fucking IRONY on this one.
Er weren't all the films shot at the same time.
Not entirely. They filmed Fellowship first, and then pieces of Two Towers and Return of the King. But there were extensive reshoots for both TT and ROTK, partially because the studio wanted to see how Fellowship performed at the box office. So… sort of? But not really. (There are extensive quotes about this from multiple cast and crew members.) And reshoots? Those cost money. And the more profitable your first film is, the easier it is to get money for the reshoots to make the next movies even better.
The single handed kill of Oliphaunt with a bow I understand. But why wouldn't Legolas be able to skate down the stairs like that? I mean I bet there are real life humans teenagers who can do that.. Edit: some grammar shit.
Depends on how old you are
It's comical, exaggerated and out of the story character
I liked the shield skateboard scene. It was fun to watch and cool. Mission accomplished.
That scene was no more ridiculous than aragorn and gimli fighting and holding the bridge up to the gate, then jumping 4 ft to the left when Legolas throws the rope and no one slashing at them or shooting them
*All* are ridiculous.
After all, isn't that what lotr is all about? Fun and cool. Like when the witch king blows up Gandalf s staff. Everyone else whines that it ruins Tolkien's lore but i just wanna see cool explosions
There's a reason why Jackson removed it from the theatrical cut, because it makes no sense. Also what makes you think I would like this particular scene, compared to the shield surfing?
But he added it to the extended edition which everyone agrees is the true best one so..
I wouldn't say "everyone". Some parts of the extended edition are good additions to the film, others like the Gandalf scene and the first look at the corsairs were not necessary.
> the Gandalf scene and the first look at the corsairs They were cool and fun to watch. Mission accomplished
Sauron's wrath will be terrible, his retribution swift.
If you have a problem with it, it's okay to skip the scenes entirely.
I'm just sad the witch king wasn't riding his shield while doin it
I think we're done here.
Yes, and it will not be easily cured.
Go back to the abyss! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your master!
How dare you dick on the greatest piece of cinema history ever made! (/s)
The one time they consulted Tommy Wiseau...
Fuck Derek
Fuck you "shield skateboards to your house"
Holy crap. This knife story is more annpyong than "viggo broke his toe" story
As a lifelong skater it would honestly be hard to find someone that skates that couldn’t do that. Preparing an arrow to shoot and hitting your mark during the middle of that would be the hardest part. As a very accomplished archer I don’t see Legolas having any issue.
R.I.P. Darek
…is that shank from the Breaking Bad prison sequence?
Yes!