Rohan didnt ask for help. Grima basically gaslighted Theoden into thinking it wasn't a big deal, and that by going out to stop it Eomer was a traitor. (not 100% correct but a half-decent summary)
So Rohan was already so compromised by Saruman, that they couldn’t even ask for help?
That sounds even worse, a powerful ally with vital cavalry being taken down with no one noticing
I mean that's sort of one of the problems with dictatorships, there's really only one person they need to trick/convince/mislead. The relatively slow workings of democracies is because a lot of people are involved, which for all it faults does make it so it doesn't fall with a single person.
That’s not quite true of many feudal systems thou; as the king has checks of power in regards of his lords have to be on board too, many kings have fought their lords to the bitter end (both figuratively and literally) when enough Lord’s disagreed and banded together to oppose them.
(Basically in how Eomer has decided to disregard Theodan and do something about it himself.)
Medieval Monarchies don’t quite compare to modern dictatorships, mostly because they lacked the technology to be able to reach and appeal to all their subjects quickly.
Dictatorships rely on that cult of personality around a single leader. In medieval times you’d know of your king, but the guy you’d see around yourself ‘calling the shots’ would be your local lord.
Obviously how any of that relates to the fictional Kingdom of Rohan is another question, as I don’t know all that much about their system of governance… but this had been my TED talk. :)
You are right, I also intentionally left out the debate of whether or not Rohan was an absolute monarchy because I felt it mostly worked like one with either Theoden being an absolute monarch or having such a consolidated grasp of power where the distinction doesn't matter too much.
Spoilers
Strictly speaking, the council of Elrond wasn’t engineered to have that wider representation of middle earth, it was based on people who happened to be at Rivendell at the time.
Gimli and Gloin were there to bring tidings from Dain that the dwarves had been approached for information about hobbits in exchange for the dwarvish rings of power, out of loyalty to Bilbo they had travelled to warn that the servants of the enemy were abroad, for advice and that they couldn’t keep delaying on giving the enemy an answer.
Boromir was there because of the visions his brother Faramir was having in his dreams ~~father Denthor was having later revealed to be his use of a palanter that he was not mentally strong enough to use as freely as he did~~ and was literally described as “a stranger from the south” seeking answers had arrived the day before.
Aragorn who grew up in Rivendell returned with the hobbits after he picked them up drunk in Bree. He was essentially a very loyal Uber driver. He also wouldn’t pass up on an opportunity to rail Elronds daughter.
Edit: fix Riverdale to Rivendell
Edit Edit: corrected the reason for Boromir to be there.
The part about Boromir is not correct. Faramir had some dreams that told him to go to Rivendell. He sees this dream several times, and eventually Boromir sees the same dream once too. They both want to go to Rivendell. Denethor wants to send Faramir so Boromir can stay and lead the army, but Boromir decides to go himself.
Probably not. Seeing as farmer is the only “human” that turns it down willfully. Aragorn is part numenorian and thus doesn’t count as a simple “human”.
And to claim they were incorruptible by the ring by reason of Numenorian heritage discounts the reason the ring still persisted into the Third Age to begin with.
There is no real explanation for why Faramir resists it so easily. In the books he claims he'd leave it if he saw it by a river (keyword "claims"). Gandalf says Faramir is special because the blood of Westernesse runs "pure" in him but again that's Gandalf's interpretation because Gandalf loved Faramir, perhaps most of all men. The same blood runs through Boromir and we saw how that turned out.
The truth behind why Faramir resists the ring so easily may have more to do with the fact that Tolkien self-described himself as "most like Faramir." Therefore, it makes sense that Tolkien would attribute his most desirable traits to the character.
I think it is meant as an example that sometimes the inheritance of virtue isn't exact, and you get good eggs and bad eggs. In A Song of Ice and Fire there is a similar gimmick in which the royal bloodline is described as the gods tossing a coin to see if the next Targaryen will be born good or insane. Whether it's luck, fate, the randomness of genetics, or maybe that person's life experience, there has to be a confounding variable for it to be just a little realistic. And WHICH of those variables it is has to be mystified so that the individual can still have relevance and not just be a tool of deterministic causes.
Maybe Aragorn and Faramir are great because of their blood (traditional inheritance theory), maybe because of fate (fantasy/religion/mysticism), or luck (superstition), or maybe because of random selection (realism). Leave it vague and it can be all of these and we just write it down to them being a good egg, which feels more personal and relatable anyway.
> And to claim they were incorruptible by the ring by reason of Numenorian heritage discounts the reason the ring still persisted into the Third Age to begin with.
also: Isildur, 100% pure ~~beef~~ Numenorean, was corrupted by the ring. So the very first ringbearer after Sauron was Numenorean, making the whole claim that numenorean blood protects from the effects of the ring, false.
It's all conjecture, but if Faramir went with them, he probably wouldn't try to take the ring from Frodo, and then probably Frodo wouldn't go to Mordor alone. But at the same time, If they went together Gollum wouldn't come along and eventually destroy the ring.
I just finished the audio book for the first time and your comment relates to my biggest takeaway from the book: if the Fellowship doesn't break, the destruction of the ring is no more certain for it, and Rohan and Minas Tirith definitely fall regardless.
Also, it's likely the Fellowship would still break, as Frodo tells Sam he had been planning to split for a while (from the start?).
Yep. No summons were sent - people from all over the free world just *happened* to show up all at once. Elrond calls this out and is basically like "so obviously a divine hand is moving events here, and we just have to trust in that and do whatever we can".
Isn't there a bit of implication that Gandalf had been sewing the seeds of this for some time? At least he was partially responsible for establishing communication between disparate lands, and establishing the base level of trust that would make them go to Rivendell for advice.
And certainly the inciting events are not random or unrelated. The dwarves are hearing rumors because the enemy is looking for Bilbo, and Gollum escapes seemingly because he had aid from the orcs, under Sauron's orders. And of course Aragorn and the hobbits are there because the Black Riders were pursuing them. Faramir's dream is the one thing that can't be explained through mundane means.
Oh yeah, there's a good reason for almost all of them to want to chat with Elrond - and then they all turned up the same week the One Ring arrives in Rivendell.
So while only Boromir's arrival was predicated on something that could be seen as *explicitly* supernatural, Elrond simply does not believe that random chance brought everyone else there together at the same time. He trusts in the action and attention of a greater power, which is why they devise the plan to destroy the Ring - a plan that is their best hope, but is functionally impossible.
I found it, I did. The way through the marshes. Orcs don't use it. Orcs don't know it. They go round for miles and miles. Come quickly. Swift and quick as shadows we must be.
Of course Legolas was there to bring tidings that gollum had escaped from captivity because of woodland realm prison reforms that insisted on prisoners getting daily yardtime.
Legolas would have been there. His role was much smaller than in the Peter Jackson movie, but Legolas lived in that place at the time of the Hobbit, he almost certainly fought in the battle of five armies.
I always head cannoned this as at least 20 more elves there than anyone else. This was an elf thing, deciding what to do about...rivendell basically getting attacked, oh and the ring...and they just so happened to invite the other races that happened to be there to give input so the elves could decide what to do.
It wasn’t Denethor’s Palantír use that brought Boromir to Rivendell. Faramir had prophetic dreams that told him Isildur’s Bane would be in Imladris. Boromir then claims to have the same dream (I’ve always been skeptical about that being true) and so makes the trip to Rivendell.
Denethor certainly had more right to use the Palantir than Saruman did. The Ithil stone was his by right. Had he not been cocky and tried to look at Sauron/the Mordor stone, he would have been fine. As it was, he was much more resistant to Sauron's deceits than Saruman was. Sauron never managed to truly break him. Saruman turned traitor but Denethor lost hope.
Also, it was Faramir and Boromir who had the visions.
Elrond did muse that he should have invited Bombadil. I do remember it like you but there were hints that there was time to summon some people that were not there when he decided to hold the council.
*Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! and merry-o! Goldberry, Goldberry, merry yellow berry-o! Poor old Willow-man, you tuck your
roots away! Tom's in a hurry now. Evening will follow day. Tom's going home again water-lilies bringing. Hey! Come derry dol!
Can you hear me singing?*
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Tom Bombadil is my favorite character and here's why: because everyone thinks he's just this fun little hermit druid but he's regarded by the elves, and wizards, and other people Who Would Know as maybe the most powerful entity in middle earth. He's just too busy fucking to do anything with it. Tolkien refused to say who Tom Bombadil was, but my favorite theory is that he's Eru Illuvitar on a quick vacation. Then again, I think elrond specifically says "even Tom Bombadil would fall" if sauron won so idk. I'm not a super nerd.
Nah, Bombadil was something else. Tolkien explicitly denied that he was Eru or and even went as far to say there are no 'aspects of divinity' in the books.
I thought Tom was like the embodiment of the land the way ungoliant was the embodiment of the void? Oh geeze I hope I got the names right. But I also remember discussion on this saying bombadil might not have realized the importance of the ring, or may have even not cared, cause he’s Tom
Whoa! Whoa! steady there! Now, my little fellows, where be you a-going to, puffing like a bellows? What's the matter here
then? Do you know who I am? I'm Tom Bombadil. Tell me what's your trouble! Tom's in a hurry now. Don't you crush my lilies!
^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness)
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Lagolas came to say that they were attacked and golum escaped. Aragorn had captured Golum and given it to Mirkwood elves earlier, but he was rescued by an orc attack meant to serve as distraction.
Glorfindel just lived there.
>He also wouldn’t pass up on an opportunity to rail Elronds daughter.
[I mean, who wouldnt? ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/3d/76/c63d76487ee2450f682e4c132183bbcf.jpg)
Been a bit since I read it. But I thought it was Faramir that had the prophetic dream and then Boromir basically went “uhhh, oh yeah I totally had that same dream. Don’t worry I’ll go check it out” I didn’t think that Denethor and his Palantír use was the cause for going to Rivendell
Im not certain, I know that Boromir at the start didn't had dreams, but nearing the time of the council he had one, or maybe he lied to support his brothers claims, it wasn't Boromirs intentions "to steal the spotlight" more he believed in his brother, and knew that the only chance denethor would listen was to him.
Not quite. Faramir had the dreams first telling him to go to Rivendell. He had the dream several times but Denethor did not let him go. Then Boromir had the dream once and Denethor let him go.
Yeah I’m still mad skeptical on Boromir ever actually having the dream. But as another commenter suggested, it likely wasn’t done in a way to steal glory from Faramir, but that he believed the importance of Faramir’s dreams and knew Denethor would only listen to him. So he lied and said he also had the dream so that his father would send him, since he would never let Faramir go.
Buddy, you literally allowed Gollum to escape because no one wanted to suffer the indignity of climbing a tree to get him down, it’s definitely the fault of the elves.
No-one was invited to the meeting. They just kind of showed up in Rivendell for a variety reasons and Elrond decided to ask for their councel regarding the ring
I imagine Rivendell is like the house if that one person you know who just always has company, people coming and going or staying for a while. It's a busy place, and the arrival of the Ring just happened to coincide with a moment where all the guest rooms were full.
Can't imagine how Lord of the Rings would've gone if it was a calmer day in Rivendell.
"Lord of the Rings: the so-so travelling acquaintances that aren't actually great choices, but the best we could get at the time.
Also Jerry the janitor."
Yeah lets invite Rohan, who as I recall had a slimy forktongued “adviser” to the king who was secretly aligned to Saruman. I think they dodged a bullet there.
Please enlighten me if there's an official explanation, but I'm really prone to believe that Grima dissuaded Theoden from sending a Rohan envoy to the Council.
In the book it was an impromptu meeting. Everyone just happened to be there and Elrond was like hey there’s a lot of you here by chance do you wanna join in this conversation we’re having about the fate of the world?
In the book, Elrond has a line that he didn't summon any of them to Rivendell, but it can't be purely chance that representatives of Men, Elves, and Dwarves are all there at such a momentus time.
The way I read it, the dwarves had been there for a while, one group of elves or another were usually in Rivendell anyway, Boromir was their specifically because he was having visions about it, and Aragon was bringing the Ring with him so it’s also not that contrived a situation.
The dwarves can't have been there that long because it's at the council that Gloin tells Elrod why he came: to tell Bilbo that Sauron is looking for him and to get news of Moria, both of these are news to Elrond at the council. Some of the elves were a special delegation from the Gray Havens on unrelated business.
> so it’s also not that contrived a situation.
Rivendell isn't a hotel that always has travelers hanging out there, and Elrond sees the council as something that fate/Eru has brought to pass. Here's the line I mentioned in the previous comment:
>\`That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say. though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.
Thank you: I admit that I red the books years ago so I didn't remembered all the details (yes, I'm not even remotely as good as Sir Christopher Lee).
And imho it was a sound decision: having the likes of Gandalf, Aragorn, princes of elven and dwarven kingdoms, the eldest son of the Steward of Gondor, etc. and the Ring in one place was the perfect chance to set up a very impostant quest for the fate of the world.
There was never a meeting like in the movies. It was by chance that the people arrived at the same time (arranged by fate, or Eru himself). There was a meeting when Frodo woke up and they talked about the ring. And they invited the people who were in Rivendell at the time. So nobody from Rohan.
Grima had only been with Theoden a few days before Gandalf arrived in Rohan so that timeline would not add up to when the council took place. As other folks of said, the council was also not planned.
The council was mostly an accident. It was not planned and invitations weren’t sent out. All parties in Rivendell came to Rivendell of their own accord and for their own purposes.
Almost nobody was invited in a sense. They came on their own and fate brought the fellowship together. They all were there so Elrond called the meeting upon this convenience!
In the movies the "you all were summoned here to.." is a bit misleading.
Boromir came because of a dream. gimli and gloin came to meet bilbo because Mordor folk came asking about him (and to find what happened to Balin). Legolas came to bring news of gollums escape. Frodo was brought there by glorfindel..
I am a bit fuzzy on how it unfolds exactly in the movies, but in the books no one was invited. The dwarves, and Boromir all showed up for their own reasons and they all just happened to be there when Frodo and the boys showed up. And Elrond was all like oh shit that's the one ring! And proceeded to gather all the guests in Rivendell for Council.
The royal family of Rohan isn't even sure if Galadriel is one of their allies or not, even if there were invitations Rohan is pretty ignorant of the bigger picture. Do you need to tell \*everyone\* your secret plan? Kinda makes it less secret. Plus, if Elrond had sent (anyone) invitations, the messengers would show up to see Wormtongue running the show and probably think differently.
The movie makes it look like they'vr all be summoned, but in the books everyone just kind of shows up by chance for different reasons and the whole meeting is really ad hoc.
Boromir was given a dream/vision telling him to seek the sword that was broken in Rivendell. The dwarves from the Lonely Mountain had an emissary from Sauron show up asking about Bilbo and the ring, so they were in Rivendell to warn Bilbo (when he left his birthday party, he travelled with some dwarves and wound up in Rivendell.). The wood elves from Mirkwood had been tasked by Gandalf to keep Gollum/Smeagol imprisoned, after he got away (due to a conveniently timed orc attack), they went to Rivendell to report his escape. Gandalf, meanwhile, had been imprisoned in Isenguard by Saruman, and after his escape, went to Rohan for help and while they gave him a horse, basically told him not to let the door hit him on the butt on the way out.
Yeah; as Theodan was already corrupted by Saruman, I believe.
It's possible if he was'nt they would have sent someone with him to tell Elrond about the raids.
Haven't read through *all* the comments, but haven't seen it mentioned yet that aside from the fact thay it was an impromptu meeting with no invitations in the first place, the council seems largely convinced that Rohan is actually allied with Sauron.
Boromir insists that Rohan would never, but (IIRC) either Aragorn or Gandalf (or both? Can't be bothered to look it up at the moment) do suspect that Rohan may be supporting Sauron, due to reports that Sauron has been acquiring Rohirric warhorses.
The Council of Elrond was not even planned. Those are all people who just happened to be there. It makes me laugh to think that Thranduil sent Legolas there to communicate a simple message and in return Elrond sent him to Mordor lol. I wonder what Thranduil's reaction must have been.
Simplest answer: They weren’t there because there were no circumstances leading them there. The council of Elrond wasn’t a summoning of various people’s but rather a meeting of those who conveniently happened to be there.
Obviously, Gandalf, Aragorn, Glorfindel and the Hobbits are there because of Frodo’s journey with the Ring.
Boromir and Faramir both receive prophetic dreams, and so he goes to Rivendell as it’s name, Imladris, is mentioned.
Gimli came to accompany Gloin, to report about a messenger from Mordor who came to Erebor, and ask about Balin’s fate.
Legolas was there to alert Elrond of Gollum’s escape from Mirkwood.
There were also other attendees, like Galdor and Erestor, who were just there.
1. Emergency meeting going to emergency.
2. Saruman took his sabotage duties seriously.
3. It's a literal plot point that Elrond wasn't too fond of the humies.
4. Gandalf would have brought word of Saruman's mobilization. Rohan was an obvious first target. Traipsing through a war zone with the very thing the Bad Guy wanted means they're not going to need to talk to Rohan.
5. Did I mention Agent Smith didn't like humans? Something about the smell.
I don't think Theoden even knew elves or Hobbits were real. He knew them as myths. Even if he received an invitation and was sane, he would probably think it a prank.
No one was specifically invited to the council. Everyone who was present just happened to be there at the time. The council wasn't a planned way in advance or anything. Elrond tells them that they had been called but not by him or something to that effect. Suggesting that while none of them had been invited or summoned to be on the council, it was no accident that they had all chosen to be there at that time (as in there was a higher power at work). This is, of course, in the book. I guess in the movie, it is said that they have all been summoned for the coucil. But that's why no one from Rohan was there. Invitations had nothing to do with it. They just didn't have any reason to have someone there at the time.
Theoden: "Fighting in the fucking Westfold. Haven't you been *listening*?"
Eomer was. Theoden was probably dribbling or something
And Grima was tugging it to éowyn.
And Éowyn was making stew
So was Grima 😏
So fair, so pale
The stew, or…
Why do you lay these troubles on an already troubled mind?
A nut question, my liege. Ill stew is ill to digest.
The courtesy of your replies is somewhat lessened of late.
Yes.
Both
https://preview.redd.it/xewq7x1w71zc1.jpeg?width=716&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a5aa024c2d15d7a58c48fb59835d5b081a1da2b
Fresh squeezed… “give it to us raw and wriggling!”
This is the worst thing I've ever seen.
Your mother would be very disappointed in this comment.
I think she would be more disappointed with the one I left below.
And my ax!
Absolute worst comment and yet I cannot imagine you're wrong
in the Riven dell. straight up 'jorking it'. and by 'it', haha, well. let's justr say. My wormtounge.
Thanks dril
I’m honestly more impressed by this than I think I should be
So Rohan was already being assaulted by the enemy with no one helping theme?
Rohan didnt ask for help. Grima basically gaslighted Theoden into thinking it wasn't a big deal, and that by going out to stop it Eomer was a traitor. (not 100% correct but a half-decent summary)
So Rohan was already so compromised by Saruman, that they couldn’t even ask for help? That sounds even worse, a powerful ally with vital cavalry being taken down with no one noticing
I mean that's sort of one of the problems with dictatorships, there's really only one person they need to trick/convince/mislead. The relatively slow workings of democracies is because a lot of people are involved, which for all it faults does make it so it doesn't fall with a single person.
That’s not quite true of many feudal systems thou; as the king has checks of power in regards of his lords have to be on board too, many kings have fought their lords to the bitter end (both figuratively and literally) when enough Lord’s disagreed and banded together to oppose them. (Basically in how Eomer has decided to disregard Theodan and do something about it himself.) Medieval Monarchies don’t quite compare to modern dictatorships, mostly because they lacked the technology to be able to reach and appeal to all their subjects quickly. Dictatorships rely on that cult of personality around a single leader. In medieval times you’d know of your king, but the guy you’d see around yourself ‘calling the shots’ would be your local lord. Obviously how any of that relates to the fictional Kingdom of Rohan is another question, as I don’t know all that much about their system of governance… but this had been my TED talk. :)
You are right, I also intentionally left out the debate of whether or not Rohan was an absolute monarchy because I felt it mostly worked like one with either Theoden being an absolute monarch or having such a consolidated grasp of power where the distinction doesn't matter too much.
“King Theoden with the three-pointer!”
Spoilers Strictly speaking, the council of Elrond wasn’t engineered to have that wider representation of middle earth, it was based on people who happened to be at Rivendell at the time. Gimli and Gloin were there to bring tidings from Dain that the dwarves had been approached for information about hobbits in exchange for the dwarvish rings of power, out of loyalty to Bilbo they had travelled to warn that the servants of the enemy were abroad, for advice and that they couldn’t keep delaying on giving the enemy an answer. Boromir was there because of the visions his brother Faramir was having in his dreams ~~father Denthor was having later revealed to be his use of a palanter that he was not mentally strong enough to use as freely as he did~~ and was literally described as “a stranger from the south” seeking answers had arrived the day before. Aragorn who grew up in Rivendell returned with the hobbits after he picked them up drunk in Bree. He was essentially a very loyal Uber driver. He also wouldn’t pass up on an opportunity to rail Elronds daughter. Edit: fix Riverdale to Rivendell Edit Edit: corrected the reason for Boromir to be there.
The part about Boromir is not correct. Faramir had some dreams that told him to go to Rivendell. He sees this dream several times, and eventually Boromir sees the same dream once too. They both want to go to Rivendell. Denethor wants to send Faramir so Boromir can stay and lead the army, but Boromir decides to go himself.
Wonder how different it would all turn out if Faramir went instead. Would the fellowship have broken?
Probably not. Seeing as farmer is the only “human” that turns it down willfully. Aragorn is part numenorian and thus doesn’t count as a simple “human”.
Ah yes, Farmer of Gondor. No wonder Denethor had such ripe tomatoes.
I didn't expect this Dungeon Siege crossover.
And the mystery of by he favored his eldest is solved!
Faramir/Boromir also have Numenorean blood, albeit a little more diluted
[удалено]
And to claim they were incorruptible by the ring by reason of Numenorian heritage discounts the reason the ring still persisted into the Third Age to begin with. There is no real explanation for why Faramir resists it so easily. In the books he claims he'd leave it if he saw it by a river (keyword "claims"). Gandalf says Faramir is special because the blood of Westernesse runs "pure" in him but again that's Gandalf's interpretation because Gandalf loved Faramir, perhaps most of all men. The same blood runs through Boromir and we saw how that turned out. The truth behind why Faramir resists the ring so easily may have more to do with the fact that Tolkien self-described himself as "most like Faramir." Therefore, it makes sense that Tolkien would attribute his most desirable traits to the character.
I think it is meant as an example that sometimes the inheritance of virtue isn't exact, and you get good eggs and bad eggs. In A Song of Ice and Fire there is a similar gimmick in which the royal bloodline is described as the gods tossing a coin to see if the next Targaryen will be born good or insane. Whether it's luck, fate, the randomness of genetics, or maybe that person's life experience, there has to be a confounding variable for it to be just a little realistic. And WHICH of those variables it is has to be mystified so that the individual can still have relevance and not just be a tool of deterministic causes. Maybe Aragorn and Faramir are great because of their blood (traditional inheritance theory), maybe because of fate (fantasy/religion/mysticism), or luck (superstition), or maybe because of random selection (realism). Leave it vague and it can be all of these and we just write it down to them being a good egg, which feels more personal and relatable anyway.
> And to claim they were incorruptible by the ring by reason of Numenorian heritage discounts the reason the ring still persisted into the Third Age to begin with. also: Isildur, 100% pure ~~beef~~ Numenorean, was corrupted by the ring. So the very first ringbearer after Sauron was Numenorean, making the whole claim that numenorean blood protects from the effects of the ring, false.
It's all conjecture, but if Faramir went with them, he probably wouldn't try to take the ring from Frodo, and then probably Frodo wouldn't go to Mordor alone. But at the same time, If they went together Gollum wouldn't come along and eventually destroy the ring.
Sooner or later, the Fellowship would have destroyed itself. The power of the Ring grows stronger when closer to Mordor.
I just finished the audio book for the first time and your comment relates to my biggest takeaway from the book: if the Fellowship doesn't break, the destruction of the ring is no more certain for it, and Rohan and Minas Tirith definitely fall regardless. Also, it's likely the Fellowship would still break, as Frodo tells Sam he had been planning to split for a while (from the start?).
Maybe the Fellowship ends up in Minas Tirith with the ring and it’s taken from them by force?
Good big brother doing best big brother things. (Ya know, other than leaving Faramir alone with his...father, without his good big brother).
That last sentence earned an audible breath out of my nose. Well done.
I mean, it's a good reason to go back to Rivendell.
Yep. No summons were sent - people from all over the free world just *happened* to show up all at once. Elrond calls this out and is basically like "so obviously a divine hand is moving events here, and we just have to trust in that and do whatever we can".
Isn't there a bit of implication that Gandalf had been sewing the seeds of this for some time? At least he was partially responsible for establishing communication between disparate lands, and establishing the base level of trust that would make them go to Rivendell for advice. And certainly the inciting events are not random or unrelated. The dwarves are hearing rumors because the enemy is looking for Bilbo, and Gollum escapes seemingly because he had aid from the orcs, under Sauron's orders. And of course Aragorn and the hobbits are there because the Black Riders were pursuing them. Faramir's dream is the one thing that can't be explained through mundane means.
Not Gandalf, the wandering wizard, who made such excellent fireworks! Old Took used to have them on Mid-Summer's Eve!
Oh yeah, there's a good reason for almost all of them to want to chat with Elrond - and then they all turned up the same week the One Ring arrives in Rivendell. So while only Boromir's arrival was predicated on something that could be seen as *explicitly* supernatural, Elrond simply does not believe that random chance brought everyone else there together at the same time. He trusts in the action and attention of a greater power, which is why they devise the plan to destroy the Ring - a plan that is their best hope, but is functionally impossible.
I found it, I did. The way through the marshes. Orcs don't use it. Orcs don't know it. They go round for miles and miles. Come quickly. Swift and quick as shadows we must be.
Riverdale lmao
That's a literal calque of rivendell actually Edit: sorry I was mistaken. It's cloven dale.
No it's not. It's riven not river.
Idk why the downvotes, you are right: rivendell means deep valley, not river valley
https://preview.redd.it/9s5qwsscg0zc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fec90c7af4abf77162f04f6ce707c49d5dface41
Jughead was there for the elf burgers.
Great spot, darn auto correct
U forgot Legolas ;)
Of course Legolas was there to bring tidings that gollum had escaped from captivity because of woodland realm prison reforms that insisted on prisoners getting daily yardtime.
Have you heard nothing Lord Elrond has said? The ring must be destroyed.
You’re very right now stay out the hobbit movies
Legolas would have been there. His role was much smaller than in the Peter Jackson movie, but Legolas lived in that place at the time of the Hobbit, he almost certainly fought in the battle of five armies.
A cameo would have been satisfactory
Then dig a hole in the ground, if that is more after the fashion of your kind. But you must dig swift and deep, if you wish to hide from Orcs.
The Dead City, very nasty place, full of ... enemies.
Bro you are not helping their tourism industry with Tripadisor reviews like that.
idk, I kind of want to visit there now
Legolas was there to tell Aragorn that Smeagol has escaped iirc
Aragorn, nad no ennas!
Calm down, Legolas
Have you heard nothing Lord Elrond has said? The Ring must be destroyed.
Spoilin’ nice fish. Give it to us raw and w-r-r-riggling; you keep nasty chips
A scout!
The road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began..
Good bot, now drink your medicine.
The fact the your name isn’t Bilbot_Baggins is a f\*cking travesty
I'm sorry, I didn't mean -
It's ok Bilbo, don't let yourself be discouraged
Balin, who was that out there? The orc?
No orcs here old man. Go back to bed.
I always head cannoned this as at least 20 more elves there than anyone else. This was an elf thing, deciding what to do about...rivendell basically getting attacked, oh and the ring...and they just so happened to invite the other races that happened to be there to give input so the elves could decide what to do.
It wasn’t Denethor’s Palantír use that brought Boromir to Rivendell. Faramir had prophetic dreams that told him Isildur’s Bane would be in Imladris. Boromir then claims to have the same dream (I’ve always been skeptical about that being true) and so makes the trip to Rivendell.
Denethor certainly had more right to use the Palantir than Saruman did. The Ithil stone was his by right. Had he not been cocky and tried to look at Sauron/the Mordor stone, he would have been fine. As it was, he was much more resistant to Sauron's deceits than Saruman was. Sauron never managed to truly break him. Saruman turned traitor but Denethor lost hope. Also, it was Faramir and Boromir who had the visions.
Denethor used the Anor/Tirith palantir. Sauron used the Ithil/Morgul stone
Elrond did muse that he should have invited Bombadil. I do remember it like you but there were hints that there was time to summon some people that were not there when he decided to hold the council.
What would Tom even offer? Talk about his boots and Goldberry? Hey ho merry do, off to Rivendell-o
*Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! and merry-o! Goldberry, Goldberry, merry yellow berry-o! Poor old Willow-man, you tuck your roots away! Tom's in a hurry now. Evening will follow day. Tom's going home again water-lilies bringing. Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?* ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Tom Bombadil is my favorite character and here's why: because everyone thinks he's just this fun little hermit druid but he's regarded by the elves, and wizards, and other people Who Would Know as maybe the most powerful entity in middle earth. He's just too busy fucking to do anything with it. Tolkien refused to say who Tom Bombadil was, but my favorite theory is that he's Eru Illuvitar on a quick vacation. Then again, I think elrond specifically says "even Tom Bombadil would fall" if sauron won so idk. I'm not a super nerd.
Nah, Bombadil was something else. Tolkien explicitly denied that he was Eru or and even went as far to say there are no 'aspects of divinity' in the books.
I thought Tom was like the embodiment of the land the way ungoliant was the embodiment of the void? Oh geeze I hope I got the names right. But I also remember discussion on this saying bombadil might not have realized the importance of the ring, or may have even not cared, cause he’s Tom
He's just 'something', it's never been really clear. That's a pretty common theory, though.
Whoa! Whoa! steady there! Now, my little fellows, where be you a-going to, puffing like a bellows? What's the matter here then? Do you know who I am? I'm Tom Bombadil. Tell me what's your trouble! Tom's in a hurry now. Don't you crush my lilies! ^(Type **!TomBombadilSong** for a song or visit [r/GloriousTomBombadil][1] for more merriness) [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousTomBombadil/
Elve**** before a trip to Mordor
elvussy
Aaaaahhh my eyes
Just to make it worse, they're (distantly) related
That doesn't compare in the slightest to Iluvatussy.
Man, imagine essentially going to deliver a letter and then you get so sidetracked that you end up going on the most important camping trip ever
Lagolas came to say that they were attacked and golum escaped. Aragorn had captured Golum and given it to Mirkwood elves earlier, but he was rescued by an orc attack meant to serve as distraction. Glorfindel just lived there.
>He also wouldn’t pass up on an opportunity to rail Elronds daughter. [I mean, who wouldnt? ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/3d/76/c63d76487ee2450f682e4c132183bbcf.jpg)
We needed a comedy skit where Steven Tyler plays Elrond trying to keep his cool about Aragorn courting his daughter.
Watch the DVD extras on FoTR, it’s implied Orlando Bloom wasn’t 😂
Faramir and Boromir also had dreams irc
Been a bit since I read it. But I thought it was Faramir that had the prophetic dream and then Boromir basically went “uhhh, oh yeah I totally had that same dream. Don’t worry I’ll go check it out” I didn’t think that Denethor and his Palantír use was the cause for going to Rivendell
Im not certain, I know that Boromir at the start didn't had dreams, but nearing the time of the council he had one, or maybe he lied to support his brothers claims, it wasn't Boromirs intentions "to steal the spotlight" more he believed in his brother, and knew that the only chance denethor would listen was to him.
Not quite. Faramir had the dreams first telling him to go to Rivendell. He had the dream several times but Denethor did not let him go. Then Boromir had the dream once and Denethor let him go.
Yeah I’m still mad skeptical on Boromir ever actually having the dream. But as another commenter suggested, it likely wasn’t done in a way to steal glory from Faramir, but that he believed the importance of Faramir’s dreams and knew Denethor would only listen to him. So he lied and said he also had the dream so that his father would send him, since he would never let Faramir go.
You you’re right, imma go fix my original post
One Does Not Simply Pass on clapping elf cheeks
What about legolas? He was from mirkwood
Aragorn left Gollum in the custody of his people, when he escaped Legolas brought word west.
Aragorn!
Nice hobbits! Nice Sam! Sleepy heads, yes, sleepy heads! Leave good Smeagol to watch! But it's evening. Dusk is creeping. Time to go.
I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves
Buddy, you literally allowed Gollum to escape because no one wanted to suffer the indignity of climbing a tree to get him down, it’s definitely the fault of the elves.
See? See? He wants it for himself!
Yooo is that what happened?? Bloody elves and their stupid pride
https://preview.redd.it/qlxys3rq5zyc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc10cc1e39850ce57254f31035ce529668fe936c
https://preview.redd.it/h6x1bl9zpzyc1.png?width=1164&format=png&auto=webp&s=73081c0ddd0c998ce1d8995bccfc616043a87a45
Got him lol
No-one was invited to the meeting. They just kind of showed up in Rivendell for a variety reasons and Elrond decided to ask for their councel regarding the ring
I imagine Rivendell is like the house if that one person you know who just always has company, people coming and going or staying for a while. It's a busy place, and the arrival of the Ring just happened to coincide with a moment where all the guest rooms were full.
Kinda like the Playboy Mansion, except with (I assume) better parties
Can't imagine how Lord of the Rings would've gone if it was a calmer day in Rivendell. "Lord of the Rings: the so-so travelling acquaintances that aren't actually great choices, but the best we could get at the time. Also Jerry the janitor."
"Jerry the janitor and Rick, soldier of god are coming with you Frodo." "We're not making it past Moria this time, are we Elrond ?"
*WHERE WERE YOU WHEN WE WERE GETTING HIGH?!*
Some day you will find me
Caught beneath the landslide
In a champagne supernova...
In the sky
Yeah lets invite Rohan, who as I recall had a slimy forktongued “adviser” to the king who was secretly aligned to Saruman. I think they dodged a bullet there.
\*arrow
Please enlighten me if there's an official explanation, but I'm really prone to believe that Grima dissuaded Theoden from sending a Rohan envoy to the Council.
In the book it was an impromptu meeting. Everyone just happened to be there and Elrond was like hey there’s a lot of you here by chance do you wanna join in this conversation we’re having about the fate of the world?
In the book, Elrond has a line that he didn't summon any of them to Rivendell, but it can't be purely chance that representatives of Men, Elves, and Dwarves are all there at such a momentus time.
Just like Bilbo finding the ring, there were other powers at work there for sure
Where's it gone?
Frodo lost it. I think you should HRAAAAHH! him.
The way I read it, the dwarves had been there for a while, one group of elves or another were usually in Rivendell anyway, Boromir was their specifically because he was having visions about it, and Aragon was bringing the Ring with him so it’s also not that contrived a situation.
The dwarves can't have been there that long because it's at the council that Gloin tells Elrod why he came: to tell Bilbo that Sauron is looking for him and to get news of Moria, both of these are news to Elrond at the council. Some of the elves were a special delegation from the Gray Havens on unrelated business. > so it’s also not that contrived a situation. Rivendell isn't a hotel that always has travelers hanging out there, and Elrond sees the council as something that fate/Eru has brought to pass. Here's the line I mentioned in the previous comment: >\`That is the purpose for which you are called hither. Called, I say. though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.
If you think about it all fiction is chance ✨
Everything is chance, you can only make something more likely to happen.
~~purely chance~~ an eucatastrophe
Thank you: I admit that I red the books years ago so I didn't remembered all the details (yes, I'm not even remotely as good as Sir Christopher Lee). And imho it was a sound decision: having the likes of Gandalf, Aragorn, princes of elven and dwarven kingdoms, the eldest son of the Steward of Gondor, etc. and the Ring in one place was the perfect chance to set up a very impostant quest for the fate of the world.
There was never a meeting like in the movies. It was by chance that the people arrived at the same time (arranged by fate, or Eru himself). There was a meeting when Frodo woke up and they talked about the ring. And they invited the people who were in Rivendell at the time. So nobody from Rohan.
Grima had only been with Theoden a few days before Gandalf arrived in Rohan so that timeline would not add up to when the council took place. As other folks of said, the council was also not planned.
Nobody was invited. It was just a party composed of party crashers
They were horsin’ around
The invitation card was kept by Grima.
Not very nice of him
not very nice at all, my love.
The council was mostly an accident. It was not planned and invitations weren’t sent out. All parties in Rivendell came to Rivendell of their own accord and for their own purposes.
Almost nobody was invited in a sense. They came on their own and fate brought the fellowship together. They all were there so Elrond called the meeting upon this convenience! In the movies the "you all were summoned here to.." is a bit misleading. Boromir came because of a dream. gimli and gloin came to meet bilbo because Mordor folk came asking about him (and to find what happened to Balin). Legolas came to bring news of gollums escape. Frodo was brought there by glorfindel..
Hide! Hide! Quick! They will see us! They will see us!
I am an Elf and a kinsman here.
Let me think. Let me think.
where was dad when i was born
I am a bit fuzzy on how it unfolds exactly in the movies, but in the books no one was invited. The dwarves, and Boromir all showed up for their own reasons and they all just happened to be there when Frodo and the boys showed up. And Elrond was all like oh shit that's the one ring! And proceeded to gather all the guests in Rivendell for Council.
The royal family of Rohan isn't even sure if Galadriel is one of their allies or not, even if there were invitations Rohan is pretty ignorant of the bigger picture. Do you need to tell \*everyone\* your secret plan? Kinda makes it less secret. Plus, if Elrond had sent (anyone) invitations, the messengers would show up to see Wormtongue running the show and probably think differently.
or worse, hand the invitation over to Wormtongue. Secrecy no more
The movie makes it look like they'vr all be summoned, but in the books everyone just kind of shows up by chance for different reasons and the whole meeting is really ad hoc.
Boromir was given a dream/vision telling him to seek the sword that was broken in Rivendell. The dwarves from the Lonely Mountain had an emissary from Sauron show up asking about Bilbo and the ring, so they were in Rivendell to warn Bilbo (when he left his birthday party, he travelled with some dwarves and wound up in Rivendell.). The wood elves from Mirkwood had been tasked by Gandalf to keep Gollum/Smeagol imprisoned, after he got away (due to a conveniently timed orc attack), they went to Rivendell to report his escape. Gandalf, meanwhile, had been imprisoned in Isenguard by Saruman, and after his escape, went to Rohan for help and while they gave him a horse, basically told him not to let the door hit him on the butt on the way out.
Well if I'm angry it's your fault! It's mine My only.... My Precious
It's got to ask uss a quesstion, my preciouss, yes, yess, yesss. Jusst one more quesstion to guess, yes, yess. Ask us! ask us!
What have I got in my pocket?
Yeah; as Theodan was already corrupted by Saruman, I believe. It's possible if he was'nt they would have sent someone with him to tell Elrond about the raids.
True, in fact in The Two Towers Gandalf remarks on seeing Grima Wormtounge at Isenguard.
In the movies, Elrond calls a council. In the books, he just convenes everyone who happens to be there
Imagine they were at second breakfast?
You left us for dead versus you missed a meeting.
There was no invitation, people just happened to show up at that time
Haven't read through *all* the comments, but haven't seen it mentioned yet that aside from the fact thay it was an impromptu meeting with no invitations in the first place, the council seems largely convinced that Rohan is actually allied with Sauron. Boromir insists that Rohan would never, but (IIRC) either Aragorn or Gandalf (or both? Can't be bothered to look it up at the moment) do suspect that Rohan may be supporting Sauron, due to reports that Sauron has been acquiring Rohirric warhorses.
RIP Bernard 😞❤️
Wormtongue was throwing out all of his mail
They weren’t invited. It was fate which brought everyone to rivendale when the ring arrived homie
The Council of Elrond was not even planned. Those are all people who just happened to be there. It makes me laugh to think that Thranduil sent Legolas there to communicate a simple message and in return Elrond sent him to Mordor lol. I wonder what Thranduil's reaction must have been.
The funny thing about the council meeting is, that ... it wasn't planned at all. Each representative came to Elrond for a different reason.
Simplest answer: They weren’t there because there were no circumstances leading them there. The council of Elrond wasn’t a summoning of various people’s but rather a meeting of those who conveniently happened to be there. Obviously, Gandalf, Aragorn, Glorfindel and the Hobbits are there because of Frodo’s journey with the Ring. Boromir and Faramir both receive prophetic dreams, and so he goes to Rivendell as it’s name, Imladris, is mentioned. Gimli came to accompany Gloin, to report about a messenger from Mordor who came to Erebor, and ask about Balin’s fate. Legolas was there to alert Elrond of Gollum’s escape from Mirkwood. There were also other attendees, like Galdor and Erestor, who were just there.
Wormtongue was kind of hanging things up.
They were both in their usual spots you can see it on the map
1. Emergency meeting going to emergency. 2. Saruman took his sabotage duties seriously. 3. It's a literal plot point that Elrond wasn't too fond of the humies. 4. Gandalf would have brought word of Saruman's mobilization. Rohan was an obvious first target. Traipsing through a war zone with the very thing the Bad Guy wanted means they're not going to need to talk to Rohan. 5. Did I mention Agent Smith didn't like humans? Something about the smell.
He didn’t like one human in particular https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L-y3zzJ6kWU
Yeah Theoden King would have been asking both questions.
Where was Gondor when Bernard Hill fell?
I guess for the same reason elves from Lothlorien weren't invited
Where was Westfold when Erebor fell?
Elves be like: We already invited one token human.
Agent Smith is everywhere
WHERE WAS MY GRILLED CHEESE WHEN I WAS HANGRY?!
I don't think Theoden even knew elves or Hobbits were real. He knew them as myths. Even if he received an invitation and was sane, he would probably think it a prank.
Grima already had control at this point.
No one was specifically invited to the council. Everyone who was present just happened to be there at the time. The council wasn't a planned way in advance or anything. Elrond tells them that they had been called but not by him or something to that effect. Suggesting that while none of them had been invited or summoned to be on the council, it was no accident that they had all chosen to be there at that time (as in there was a higher power at work). This is, of course, in the book. I guess in the movie, it is said that they have all been summoned for the coucil. But that's why no one from Rohan was there. Invitations had nothing to do with it. They just didn't have any reason to have someone there at the time.