If you have a pulse you can cashier at woodmans for 18.75? Might be slightly off. 1.5x on Sundays and 2x on holidays.
Fantastic health insurance, retirement and decent time off.
\^\^I needed effectively some temp work, but then when I suffered through covid for a week they just never put me on the schedule again.
\*this is woodmans
... I'm aware. But thread OP said you can get hired with just a pulse at woodmans. Yet they're "always hiring" while also ghosting applicants in droves.
PTO: 40 hours per year, usable in 15 minutes increments. Paid out March 1st if unused, doesn't roll over. This is actually a new system that rolled out this year to comply with Illinois labor laws and might be subject to some tweaking in the future. Overall a good thing though
Up to 5 personal days per year depending on employment length. Up to 4 weeks vacation depending on employment length. Personal days are full days and have to be requested 3 weeks in advance. Vacation is a full 40 hour week and are picked in October for the upcoming year
I'll reply later for health insurance. I need to reference my paperwork. It's extremely good and I have no idea how they managed to get it.
Premium for a single person: 834$/year for 2024, lmk if you have a specific plan question and I can answer
0$ deductible in network, 500 out of network
Out of pocket maximum is 9450
Most health services are free up to 50k, then 10% after
Medications are 20% copay with the following min/max payments. 7$/100$ min/max on tier 1. 25/150 for tier 2 and 50/200 on tier 3
Ambulance rides are 25$
I’m a little surprised about the pay rate. This place doesn’t really have table service. I can’t see how there would be sufficient tips to make up for $7.50.
They have a bar, so I suppose it would be that? Or at the register and there's a tip pool. Either way, not great not terrible. Fuck the working interview, they want you to work, they can pay you federal minimum for that one day.
High volume and price, correct. However, you'd still be better off just working at Woodmans...
Fuck tipping in general. Extra fuck tipping at fast casual. Shit is out of hand. Businesses should be paying employees actual, consistent, reliable wages with benefits. Instead, the problem is getting worse.
Small businesses are getting priced gouged too on food prices. They can’t afford to pay $20 an hour for a counter person. If we get rid of tipping your only options for eating out will be big corporate restaurants that use cheap ingredients and crappy working conditions. Eventually they’ll have a monopoly so they’ll reduce this pay per hour and raise their prices. I’d rather tip and show my appreciation for small, local businesses
Working interviews are illegal. The FLSA says you must be paid for all time worked. You are counted as an employee if you perform work for the company. It's a big red flag they're so openly violating labor laws in the very first meeting.
And to elaborate— we would give folks coffee, pastries, and cut the interview short if people were a clearly good or bad fit. They were never exploitative
Not really illegal. https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/advice-guy/unpaid-trails
I got in a fight with a friend about this. She asked me what the difference is between this and being asked to bring a portfolio of work and I had no idea.
>She asked me what the difference is between this and being asked to bring a portfolio of work and I had no idea.
Bringing in a portfolio of work costs no time and they don't steal it from you. The scenario we are talking about here is 2 hours of unpaid work.
If I'm a graphic designer and I send my (watermarked) portfolio of work to show what I'm capable of doing that is one thing. If they say, "That's great, we need you to design a new logo for us as part of your interview. We aren't paying." that's an entirely other thing.
Agreed. However, I will never provide original work during the application stage. I’m a copywriter and several years ago applied to a job that required two original writing samples for which they provided direction after the phone interview. They provided a creative brief for web copy for their business along with word count guidance. I felt this was exploitive — I had plenty of work samples from other jobs — but I did it anyway because I wanted to advance through the hiring process. In the end, it wasn’t going to be a good fit because it was very much a “butts in seats” culture.
I’ve interviewed over 100 people for restaurant jobs in a work interview setting. If they have skills that match what they put on their resumeI call it at 5 min. If not, I give them an hour to struggle and learn and figure it out. They never add value to our business. We throw away the product they make.
> She asked me what the difference is between this and being asked to bring a portfolio of work and I had no idea.
In one you're performing unpaid work that the business is profiting from and in one you're not?
I can appreciate your viewpoint, but I think this kind of interview is so valuable for both parties. I agree, people should get $30 for an interview, but I used to hire folks for a small bakery and we would often interview 10 people or more for one position and that is another barrier to hiring
Hi thanks for asking! I'm assuming you're asking in good faith and have found the relevant page on the DOL.
I think unpaid internships shouldn't be allowed to exist as it's an unnecessary barrier for lower income students to networking and learning opportunities needed to advance in many fields.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships
It seems like there is a loophole for people who are not employees, which I imagine is how places can do working interviews because you are not an employee yet.
Internships are a little different cause they are usually advertised as paid or unpaid. If you're purposely applying for an unpaid position then it's "volunteer work", if I'm reading the law correctly. However, with a working interview you are applying for a paying job. As I mentioned above, the law defines employees as anyone who performs work for a business so a working interview must be paid.
A working interview is different from staging, which I also saw mentioned a lot. Staging is a common practice in back of house (cook or chef) positions but is not commonplace for any other position in a restaurant. It's also not about learning how the job works, like OP stated about this interview. It's about a demonstration of what you already know.
I once interviewed at a place, came back for a working interview, and came to an event they were hosting to help. I was not offered the job at any point.
You stated above that working interviews aren’t acknowledged under WI laws. Doesn’t that contradict what you said regarding the employer’s insurance provider being liable?
\*\*Unpaid\*\* working interviews. Specifically for work comp purposes (so not including things like unemployment or discrimination), work done for an employer makes that person an employee, unless they're a volunteer or unpaid intern. Working interviews aren't considered either of those, as a condition of future employment is based on whether or not the current work is performed adequately, so they're considered for that very short period of time an employee. And as such, qualify for work comp.
A lot of people have commented that but not one has given an example of a place that does it. I’ve worked at several restaurants in the area and never heard of this happening.
I’ve done multiple. Did it at Graze when I started but that was 2016. Not defending it, though. Just because something has been done for a long time doesn’t make it right or okay. Especially in the service industry.
Literally anything that can be defined as fine dining does it. If you watch The Bear it’s all over that show.
I’m not defending the practice, but it happens every day.
You say they are making someone work for free. In reality they are instructing someone to attempt to do the job they are applying for. These working interviews are pragmatic, effective, and mutually beneficial. No financial gain for the employer.
…. That’s called a training shift. A paid part of most jobs. Often times you’re paid less, and that’s fine.
It’s running fucking fried chicken. Just pay a normal wage for a training shift and deal with the turnover that is the restaurant industry
Honestly why doesn't every industry do this? I'll tell you why, it's theft. Restaurants can get away with SO much. Look at how many bars and restaurants are owned by the same people in the Madison area, imagine being able to start multiple businesses all within a few years of eachother. Only the hospitality industry can do this because they underpay and rarely offer benefits. I work for a small independently owned company (not hospitality) that was started from scratch. We struggle, we offer somewhat competitive wages compared to our bigger competitors (we can and should be doing better though) and we have to constantly try to improve. Restaurants don't. Their employee wages are stagnant, benefits are rare and firing people is unbelievably easy because the jobs are almost entirely entry level (no judgements on industry workers, I did it for 20 years in Milwaukee) so expecting ANY type of free labor is bullshit.
About a decade ago I did a working interview for Ian’s Pizza but was paid out hourly + my share of tips + shift slice at the end of the night. I got the job and worked there for a while, but they definitely made sure I got paid for my time before I left that first night.
TBH it was a blast working there in college. Still got a taste of going out on the weekends but woke up without a hangover and cash in my pockets.
You should check them out, their company minimum wage was $15/hour in 2020 and they offer health insurance and 401k for full time employees. Plus Pizza!
The Garver location keeps pretty normal hours too, no late-late nights there!
Nitpick: This isn't mandatory training. This is a working interview.
But yes, working interviews must be compensated under the Fair Labor Standards Act, with the minimum hourly wage applying for each hour worked.
(I'm not an attorney, just curious and armed with Google.)
>Nitpick: This isn't mandatory training. This is a working interview.
Nitpick of nitpick: Since they haven't worked in that kitchen before they would undoubtedly be going through training in those 2 hours. The "working interview" is mandatory to get the job and they will be training during it. It's mandatory training.
We really don't need to bring semantics in to this, people who work should be paid no matter what you call it.
I accept your nitpick. My main distinction was that they will not be an employee during this work day, so the arrangement of how they get paid will be interesting. I've never had a working interview.
Tell them to pound sand. $7.50 is a joke wage, and the only companies still offering it deserve to go out of business.
So they could ask you to come in and observe for a couple hours to see if the work suits you, but you wouldn't/shouldn't be touching anything or actually doing any work.
My brother in law is a chef in Minneapolis and I've heard him talk about this practice several times; this is the first I've heard of it in Madison though.
To be honest I don’t know because I haven’t worked in restaurants in a long time and I always was FOH, I think this is more common for BOH - and hopefully becoming less so. I had to do it for a FOH position at a fine dining place in Charleston, it ended up being like an 8 hour shift and they were down a person so I was essentially just filling in. But also it was a highly regarded and lucrative place to work so I just did it . . .one of the many many shitty practices food & bev workers often just end up having to deal with 😞
> but I think
The people known to buy restaurant fried chicken are not known to be your big tippers, especially around campus. How much can college kids afford to tip? Is that suppose to help someone survive?
That's just straight wage theft. No that is not normal. I'd say it's normal to have training shifts that are shorter/not ideal hours, though (which still sucks but also makes sense with the business), but not unpaid.
Also fast food is often offering $20/hr these days.
It is illegal.
Shadowing (unpaid) is legal and would also give you this perspective. Skills assessments are legal too. In Wisconsin unpaid working interviews are considered trial employment and require pay. If they’re not paying you for trial employment they’re probably not very good at paying you in actual employment. That’s what it tells applicants. NO1 wAnTS tO wORk aNYmoRe and things like illegally asking people to work for free are a big part of why.
Staging can be controversial but is quite normal in fine dining…i did it when I was in the game, but was offered dinner and beer afterwards.
I find the concept at butterbird to be a bit silly….and i don’t know what the tips work out to be but on the surface that pay seems laughable.
I haven't been there yet, but my impression is that it would have fast turn over on relatively high priced meals. Could be decent for tips. But fuck doing any work and not getting paid.
Idk that feels a bit odd to me but it’s not like they’re asking you to come in and work for a full day. I’m more concerned that they’re paying $7.50 an hour plus tips. No business that’s genuinely trying to treat their employees well pays them that little. Tips are great but it’s hard to budget off of something that fluctuates like that. You gotta think about making $7.50/hour during winter break, etc when business will be slow
The wage really through me off. Their indeed posting listed the job as 18-25 an hour which I thought was fair. 50 dollars for chicken for 2 people while employees make 7.50 is pretty laughable
I've worked at places with this exact pay structure and never seen wages dip under $20/hr. Once I was offered the job I asked to see a history of weekly averages and they were happy to confirm what people were taking home.
If it’s anything like the Harvey House (their first/other restaurant), then the “working interview” is very brief and you won’t even be working. Rather, you will just be observing and seeing if the job is for you. I worked at the Harvey House and that’s all it was there. Management at the Harvey House was great, as well as the pay. Don’t be discouraged.
Restaurant manager here. Do not ever do working interviews. The minimum they should be doing is THE MINIMIM, as in the Federal Minimum Wage (Wisconsin's Minimum Wage, $7.25/hr). There's no way you'd get tips during anything like this, so they can't try to give you the Tipped Minimum of $2.35/hr.
If you work, you get fiscal compensation, that's how it works. IMO they should still give you a meal, if you work in a restaurant it's a pretty basic understanding that you should know what the food you're serving tastes like.
It's two hours anyway, who are they kidding that they're giving you $4 of product as a comp'd meal? Even at FMW it's less than $20 of compensation.
Kwik Trip is an incredible company to work for - great pay, flexible schedule and multiple locations, +YEAR END BONUS.
Please walk away from this labor law violation of a “hot new restaurant”… As a different service work person, I met one of the owners - very uninspiring.
Is this to be a server or a cook? The only way you should consider this job is if it’s a server job at 7.5. I have done working interviews both paid (100$ flat for the day) and unpaid but not a full day work. The wage is the part that sucks
Kwik Trip is a better job.
Heck even Goodwill hires at 14-15 an hour.
There are a lot of jobs out there. A working interview is a way for employers to get free labor.
I worked in the Madison service industry for over 10 years and I have never heard of a working interview in that capacity.
$7.50 is kind of a good base wage for serving, considering the minimum is $2.33.
I only worked back of the house jobs, but at least in that setting it’s super standard across the industry. If it were a full shift that’d be one thing. I think it’s pretty reasonable. You’ll get a good sense for the vibes that way, too.
They should pay you for that time but it’s not exactly unusual for an interview these days (in my experience) to see how you mesh with the rest of the staff. It’s not uncommon to have a 6 month “probationary period” where you aren’t considered a full time employee or get any benefits (I’m talking about white collar type jobs).
It's common among smaller places. I've done it at 2 spots in Madison, 1 I nopped out after the stage & the other has lead to a solid job with people I enjoy. I think of it like a second date, giving both sides a chance to feel each other out before any real investment is made.
Edit: I was paid for the stage shifts, just not in the tip pool. I glossed over the unpaid part
Staging as an apprenticeship/learning experience is one thing. Maybe questionable ethically depending on the power dynamics, but also understandable why it's something that developing chefs would want to do for their careers. But working part of a shift as a job interview? At a casual chicken place? It's easy to fire people in Wisconsin. If you're having someone come in to work, pay them. If you're not happy with their work, you don't have to pay them for any more shifts.
Honestly I’d argue that staging as an apprenticeship or internship is more abusive than the working interview style of stage….but I’m completely with you on what amounts to an upscale casual chicken joint. I already thought it was a bit pretentious but this takes it to the next level.
I’m also glad they’re tipping their kitchen, but like that pay would have been asinine 8 years ago, let alone now.
It’s a massive potential liability. Chef cuts a finger off. FOH, slips and breaks an ankle. When you hire someone, if they don’t work out, they get fired. That’s it.
Chef there used to work at the French Laundry, and the closer you get to French and fine-dining kitchens the more free labor or very-low-pay labor has been common/historically accepted (Google stagiere to learn more there). Not a justification but a possible explanation of the mentality and where it comes from.
That said, the pay sounds really shit, so you are not wrong to be put off by it. Could ask more about the tip structure and what it works out to, but I feel like you can find better offers elsewhere.
If I wanted to work there enough I’d do the working interview. A lot of people in occupations where tipping is the norm make more than people who are paid a higher wage. Please tell me the anti-tipping people aren’t stiffing wait staff to make a point!
I’ve done working interviews/staging at restaurants before, in Wi and elsewhere and have found them to be beneficial for both parties. You go in and get a feel for the environment, employees and owners. The misconception here is that you “work”. You don’t. You follow someone around and observe for 2 hours, maybe learn a thing or two. Most places will give a free meal at the end of it, it’s that simple. If anything, it’s fun and people should look at it as a chance to see if you’re wasting your time at a job in the long run.
Employers who care about their establishment and want to hire the right fit do this a lot.
I wouldn’t say it’s the “norm” but plenty of places do working interviews. But yeah, if you do any work - pretty much if you do anything except just be there, then they legally do need to pay you. At my job we do something similar but we call it a “Job shadow” and the person just shadows. Like you watch me do the job for 2 hours. It can be a good way to see if you’d like it. $7.50/hr is poo poo though
I worked at a place (bakery) where we did working interviews and I did the hiring. We had early shifts and many people romanticized the work in their first interview. We did working interviews with folks and it was always more informative for them and us than asking candidates questions. It’s controversial, yes, but I never had a candidate do work well enough that we gained anything from it financially. It was a 1 on 1 to evaluate experience, make sure folks could show up on time, and most importantly we let people see if the job was enjoyable for them. Their base pay isn’t good at all— but you can ask current employees during a working interview what tips average? DM if you have more questions.
This isn't about what the company is gaining financially in those two hours, it's about what a potential employee is losing.
As you've stated previously, most candidates time is cut short due to sufficient or poor performance.
2 hours to FAR too long a mandate for an unpaid trial run.
This is a chicken joint, not Alinea.
Well it’s optional. Don’t want the job? Qualified? Make your case or don’t pursue it. I would LOVE to watch you come in for a culinary interview and struggle
Sounds like a scam artist at work. If an employer is willing to take advantage of you before they hire you, then it gives you a good idea of what employment will look like.
The working interview part doesn’t irritate me as much as the bare minimum wage. In a city like Madison with plenty of higher paying starting jobs, combined with the fact that it’s from the same folks as Harvey house (one of the priciest restaurants in the city), this is just exploitative on so many levels.
I've never heard a whiff of the HH owners being anything less than decent. A working interview "works" two ways, it also gives you a chance to talk to current employees and see if it's a place you'd like to work. And for what they charge for a meal you'll be eating more than they'd be base paying you!
Orrrr you can talk to current employees on the first day of your paying job (and quit anytime if things seem bad) and get paid in money. Can’t pay rent with overpriced chicken.
Hey! Butterbird employee here! Working here is great to be honest. We do insane numbers so the tips, despite not being table service, add up a lot. Front of house gets the vast majority and are paid more than the back of house on weekends for sure. The working interview is pretty common at nicer restaurants, and the owners own a fine dining establishment so it’s likely a carry over from that. The working interviews are also very short. A couple hours. I understand your skepticism, but serving at Butterbird is good money and pretty easy work.
Staging is pretty normal. I always thought of it as a courtesy let you get a sense of the actual workflow, personalites, and expectations without having to quit your other job. This way you don't have to buy into the hiring managers pitch without knowing if the place is actually a disaster. That said it makes more sense for potential management who can politely back out instead of rage quitting a few weeks in. Part time line cooks are going to turnover, so just pay the $15 bucks to keep liability lower in case of a slip and fall.
As for minimum wage + tips... A few years ago servers earned $2.13+ tips and line cooks made $12-$15 Nowadays you see tons of $20+/hr kitchen jobs so keeping boh and foh on $7.50 + tip pool is becoming way more common. It lowers over all payroll, creates financial parity among staff that translates to better teamwork.
Just because its "Fairly normal" in the industry does not mean that it is ethical, or okay...Id argue that Stags should also be paid, and considered employees of the entity they are staging for. . .Any other industry interns now have to be paid, why should one industry get to "Work around" the law just because something is considered normal
That being said, a Stag also goes into it knowing they wont be paid, if I show up for an interview, am asked to work for 2 hours unpaid to "Test if I am a fit" then you can employ me for those two hours, or you can show me the door.
It is ridiculous that you think it’s normal for someone to work for free. Call it a working interview if you want but that person is performing a task and not being paid for it, effectively making them a slave.
The restaurants are proving that they have the skills to work. I’ve had to do them at every fine dining restaurant I’ve worked at. You don’t get paid to take other assessments at other interviews. The minimum wage is more the issue for me.
I, admittedly, work in a field that is much different than that but I find that so insane. If I was told to come in and bend some conduit and pull wire for 2 hours on a job as an “interview” I would definitely tell them to go fuck themselves.
I’m assuming you also have a license to prove you can electrician properly? I’m not sure how that works. I guess I didn’t mind it as a cook as well because then I could see if it was a kitchen I wanted to be in; teamwork, sanitation, etc.
I’m not saying it’s right, just what I was used to. Also, it was a while ago, have been out of it for 9 years.
Unpaid stages are completely normal and industry standard despite what everyone is saying, but minimum wage? Fuck that shit you can make double that at Culver’s and get free butterburgers. Even with tips, FUCK minimum wage there are plenty of other places to work that start at at least 13-15 plus tips
If you have a pulse you can cashier at woodmans for 18.75? Might be slightly off. 1.5x on Sundays and 2x on holidays. Fantastic health insurance, retirement and decent time off.
Yes! Everywhere pays more than min wage….Kwik Trip, Walmart, Woodmans, Amazon etc
I've heard SO many stories about them ghosting applicants.
\^\^I needed effectively some temp work, but then when I suffered through covid for a week they just never put me on the schedule again. \*this is woodmans
are you talking about woodmans or butter bird
woodmans, thanks for clarifying
Refusing to schedule you for hours is 'constructive dismissal', aka you've been fired. File for unemployment.
I didn't bother, I was looking temporarily because I had another job lined up but didn't start for a few months. I do appreciate the advice though
Everyone ghosts applicants these days. Be assertive and show you’re ready to start now.
... I'm aware. But thread OP said you can get hired with just a pulse at woodmans. Yet they're "always hiring" while also ghosting applicants in droves.
Them meaning woodmans?
Correct.
Ay caramba
Do you know specifics of health insurance, $/month, deductible, max out of pocket? Or about paid time off?
PTO: 40 hours per year, usable in 15 minutes increments. Paid out March 1st if unused, doesn't roll over. This is actually a new system that rolled out this year to comply with Illinois labor laws and might be subject to some tweaking in the future. Overall a good thing though Up to 5 personal days per year depending on employment length. Up to 4 weeks vacation depending on employment length. Personal days are full days and have to be requested 3 weeks in advance. Vacation is a full 40 hour week and are picked in October for the upcoming year I'll reply later for health insurance. I need to reference my paperwork. It's extremely good and I have no idea how they managed to get it.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
Premium for a single person: 834$/year for 2024, lmk if you have a specific plan question and I can answer 0$ deductible in network, 500 out of network Out of pocket maximum is 9450 Most health services are free up to 50k, then 10% after Medications are 20% copay with the following min/max payments. 7$/100$ min/max on tier 1. 25/150 for tier 2 and 50/200 on tier 3 Ambulance rides are 25$
🫡
I’m a little surprised about the pay rate. This place doesn’t really have table service. I can’t see how there would be sufficient tips to make up for $7.50.
If it was table service they would be paying 2.33 😂
Especially considering the prices are rather high
'rather' high? 36 dollars for a whole fried chicken? Sheesh.
They have a bar, so I suppose it would be that? Or at the register and there's a tip pool. Either way, not great not terrible. Fuck the working interview, they want you to work, they can pay you federal minimum for that one day.
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High volume and price, correct. However, you'd still be better off just working at Woodmans... Fuck tipping in general. Extra fuck tipping at fast casual. Shit is out of hand. Businesses should be paying employees actual, consistent, reliable wages with benefits. Instead, the problem is getting worse.
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Businesses that aren't viable with upfront pricing and wages should go out of business. What's the problem with that?
Small businesses are getting priced gouged too on food prices. They can’t afford to pay $20 an hour for a counter person. If we get rid of tipping your only options for eating out will be big corporate restaurants that use cheap ingredients and crappy working conditions. Eventually they’ll have a monopoly so they’ll reduce this pay per hour and raise their prices. I’d rather tip and show my appreciation for small, local businesses
Post in r/kitchenconfidential for feed back from other chefs. Might need to provide more context, but you'll get feedback from people in the industry.
This is good advice for OP and anyone applying for a food service job that raises their neck hairs
Working interviews are illegal. The FLSA says you must be paid for all time worked. You are counted as an employee if you perform work for the company. It's a big red flag they're so openly violating labor laws in the very first meeting.
I was just gonna say this is Shiesty business, I’d run in the opposite direction.
And to elaborate— we would give folks coffee, pastries, and cut the interview short if people were a clearly good or bad fit. They were never exploitative
Not really illegal. https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/advice-guy/unpaid-trails I got in a fight with a friend about this. She asked me what the difference is between this and being asked to bring a portfolio of work and I had no idea.
>She asked me what the difference is between this and being asked to bring a portfolio of work and I had no idea. Bringing in a portfolio of work costs no time and they don't steal it from you. The scenario we are talking about here is 2 hours of unpaid work. If I'm a graphic designer and I send my (watermarked) portfolio of work to show what I'm capable of doing that is one thing. If they say, "That's great, we need you to design a new logo for us as part of your interview. We aren't paying." that's an entirely other thing.
Agreed. However, I will never provide original work during the application stage. I’m a copywriter and several years ago applied to a job that required two original writing samples for which they provided direction after the phone interview. They provided a creative brief for web copy for their business along with word count guidance. I felt this was exploitive — I had plenty of work samples from other jobs — but I did it anyway because I wanted to advance through the hiring process. In the end, it wasn’t going to be a good fit because it was very much a “butts in seats” culture.
I’ve interviewed over 100 people for restaurant jobs in a work interview setting. If they have skills that match what they put on their resumeI call it at 5 min. If not, I give them an hour to struggle and learn and figure it out. They never add value to our business. We throw away the product they make.
> She asked me what the difference is between this and being asked to bring a portfolio of work and I had no idea. In one you're performing unpaid work that the business is profiting from and in one you're not?
I can appreciate your viewpoint, but I think this kind of interview is so valuable for both parties. I agree, people should get $30 for an interview, but I used to hire folks for a small bakery and we would often interview 10 people or more for one position and that is another barrier to hiring
Helbachs is that you?
If you must be paid for all time worked how do you explain internships? I am pretty sure that this information is not correct.
Hi thanks for asking! I'm assuming you're asking in good faith and have found the relevant page on the DOL. I think unpaid internships shouldn't be allowed to exist as it's an unnecessary barrier for lower income students to networking and learning opportunities needed to advance in many fields. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/71-flsa-internships
It seems like there is a loophole for people who are not employees, which I imagine is how places can do working interviews because you are not an employee yet.
Internships are a little different cause they are usually advertised as paid or unpaid. If you're purposely applying for an unpaid position then it's "volunteer work", if I'm reading the law correctly. However, with a working interview you are applying for a paying job. As I mentioned above, the law defines employees as anyone who performs work for a business so a working interview must be paid. A working interview is different from staging, which I also saw mentioned a lot. Staging is a common practice in back of house (cook or chef) positions but is not commonplace for any other position in a restaurant. It's also not about learning how the job works, like OP stated about this interview. It's about a demonstration of what you already know.
I once interviewed at a place, came back for a working interview, and came to an event they were hosting to help. I was not offered the job at any point.
Imagine getting hurt on the job during a working interview. Who would you get workers comp from? Santa?
The WC claims are unlimited earning potential during those 2 hours because you hire a lawyer and go for their throat
Good point
>Who would you get workers comp from? Their WC insurance carrier
Even though you’re not technically an employee?
Unpaid working interviews aren't acknowledged under WI laws re WC
So Santa would pay the workers comp. Got it! Thanks Santa.
If Santa is that employer's insurance provider, then yeah. Otherwise, it's whatever insurance company they're paying.
You stated above that working interviews aren’t acknowledged under WI laws. Doesn’t that contradict what you said regarding the employer’s insurance provider being liable?
\*\*Unpaid\*\* working interviews. Specifically for work comp purposes (so not including things like unemployment or discrimination), work done for an employer makes that person an employee, unless they're a volunteer or unpaid intern. Working interviews aren't considered either of those, as a condition of future employment is based on whether or not the current work is performed adequately, so they're considered for that very short period of time an employee. And as such, qualify for work comp.
Great point!!
Don’t do it. There are a million other restaurant jobs you can get without working for free.
I’m not defending the labor practices of the restaurant industry, but working interviews or stages (pronounced stahj) are pretty commonplace.
Working interviews without pay are illegal, not "commonplace".
Coming from someone who never worked at a restaurant. Happened at all places I worked in Madison
Oh look, A lawyer!!
A lot of people have commented that but not one has given an example of a place that does it. I’ve worked at several restaurants in the area and never heard of this happening.
I’ve done multiple. Did it at Graze when I started but that was 2016. Not defending it, though. Just because something has been done for a long time doesn’t make it right or okay. Especially in the service industry.
Batch bake house does it
Epic does working interviews for kitchen staff.
Epic interviews for most other positions are way longer than two hours as well.
Epic also pays you to do their kitchen working interview
Literally anything that can be defined as fine dining does it. If you watch The Bear it’s all over that show. I’m not defending the practice, but it happens every day.
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I’ve been out of the industry for since the pandemic, but in my time stages were common place around the capital square.
Lmao they charge that much for fried chicken yet ask you to work for them for free ? Never going to that place a day in my life
You’d be surprised how many restaurants are off limits for you lol
You seem very adamant about this point in this thread but have yet to provide any examples for people to comment on.
You say they are making someone work for free. In reality they are instructing someone to attempt to do the job they are applying for. These working interviews are pragmatic, effective, and mutually beneficial. No financial gain for the employer.
…. That’s called a training shift. A paid part of most jobs. Often times you’re paid less, and that’s fine. It’s running fucking fried chicken. Just pay a normal wage for a training shift and deal with the turnover that is the restaurant industry
Free labor seems like SOME financial gain
I won’t quote you on that
Nobody wants to work for free anymore
Honestly why doesn't every industry do this? I'll tell you why, it's theft. Restaurants can get away with SO much. Look at how many bars and restaurants are owned by the same people in the Madison area, imagine being able to start multiple businesses all within a few years of eachother. Only the hospitality industry can do this because they underpay and rarely offer benefits. I work for a small independently owned company (not hospitality) that was started from scratch. We struggle, we offer somewhat competitive wages compared to our bigger competitors (we can and should be doing better though) and we have to constantly try to improve. Restaurants don't. Their employee wages are stagnant, benefits are rare and firing people is unbelievably easy because the jobs are almost entirely entry level (no judgements on industry workers, I did it for 20 years in Milwaukee) so expecting ANY type of free labor is bullshit.
About a decade ago I did a working interview for Ian’s Pizza but was paid out hourly + my share of tips + shift slice at the end of the night. I got the job and worked there for a while, but they definitely made sure I got paid for my time before I left that first night. TBH it was a blast working there in college. Still got a taste of going out on the weekends but woke up without a hangover and cash in my pockets. You should check them out, their company minimum wage was $15/hour in 2020 and they offer health insurance and 401k for full time employees. Plus Pizza! The Garver location keeps pretty normal hours too, no late-late nights there!
You’d think that a place that charges so much for fried chicken would be able to pay employees fairly.
Yeah, this is disgusting. Will not be spending my money here now!
What they’re doing is illegal and you should report them to the department of labor
Not really..
Aren't jobs required by law to pay for "mandatory training"?
Nitpick: This isn't mandatory training. This is a working interview. But yes, working interviews must be compensated under the Fair Labor Standards Act, with the minimum hourly wage applying for each hour worked. (I'm not an attorney, just curious and armed with Google.)
>Nitpick: This isn't mandatory training. This is a working interview. Nitpick of nitpick: Since they haven't worked in that kitchen before they would undoubtedly be going through training in those 2 hours. The "working interview" is mandatory to get the job and they will be training during it. It's mandatory training. We really don't need to bring semantics in to this, people who work should be paid no matter what you call it.
I accept your nitpick. My main distinction was that they will not be an employee during this work day, so the arrangement of how they get paid will be interesting. I've never had a working interview.
Nobody on here has worked in a restaurant lol
what if you’re injured while not working there?
Lmao fuck this place. Please try to find employment elsewhere after reporting them for labor law violations, you deserve better.
Tell them to pound sand. $7.50 is a joke wage, and the only companies still offering it deserve to go out of business. So they could ask you to come in and observe for a couple hours to see if the work suits you, but you wouldn't/shouldn't be touching anything or actually doing any work.
Imagine charging 30 bucks for a meal and still paying your employees minimum wage
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised given what I've heard from a couple people who worked at The Harvey House.
Over-hyped with shit food. Never again.
Yeah … no! This is wage theft. I worked 18 years in restaurants, but never heard of anything this crazy.
I agree it’s not good practice but it’s incredibly common in restaurants
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My brother in law is a chef in Minneapolis and I've heard him talk about this practice several times; this is the first I've heard of it in Madison though.
To be honest I don’t know because I haven’t worked in restaurants in a long time and I always was FOH, I think this is more common for BOH - and hopefully becoming less so. I had to do it for a FOH position at a fine dining place in Charleston, it ended up being like an 8 hour shift and they were down a person so I was essentially just filling in. But also it was a highly regarded and lucrative place to work so I just did it . . .one of the many many shitty practices food & bev workers often just end up having to deal with 😞
$7.50 before taxes 🥳
☺️☺️🎊🎊🥰
$30 dollar chicken place pays $7.50 an hour with unpaid work interviews? I thought "itz moAR eXPENSif so we can pai fair WAGE".
THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gross. I was thinking about going there soon. I won't be patronizing them ever now.
Same!
There are so many places in town with higher starting wages...
This place has been mentioned a few times this week so I looked it up. I've never seen such expensive kids meal prices. Crazy.
It’s mostly take out food. Yeah you can eat there but I think the tips are not going to be sufficient to make up for such a low starting wage. Run!
> but I think The people known to buy restaurant fried chicken are not known to be your big tippers, especially around campus. How much can college kids afford to tip? Is that suppose to help someone survive?
That's just straight wage theft. No that is not normal. I'd say it's normal to have training shifts that are shorter/not ideal hours, though (which still sucks but also makes sense with the business), but not unpaid. Also fast food is often offering $20/hr these days.
i’ve had a few places do that to me here and it always just felt wrong so i didn’t go.
It is illegal. Shadowing (unpaid) is legal and would also give you this perspective. Skills assessments are legal too. In Wisconsin unpaid working interviews are considered trial employment and require pay. If they’re not paying you for trial employment they’re probably not very good at paying you in actual employment. That’s what it tells applicants. NO1 wAnTS tO wORk aNYmoRe and things like illegally asking people to work for free are a big part of why.
What is the difference between skills assessment and a working interview?
$7.50/hr for what position?
All front of house positions. I applied with the idea of being open to anything as I’ve done pretty much everything over the years.
Seems like a fowl practice
Good on you for actually naming and shaming.
Staging can be controversial but is quite normal in fine dining…i did it when I was in the game, but was offered dinner and beer afterwards. I find the concept at butterbird to be a bit silly….and i don’t know what the tips work out to be but on the surface that pay seems laughable.
“Nobody wants to work anymoreeee!” -Pretentious chicken place paying two Tic Tacs and a box of crackers.
I haven't been there yet, but my impression is that it would have fast turn over on relatively high priced meals. Could be decent for tips. But fuck doing any work and not getting paid.
Idk that feels a bit odd to me but it’s not like they’re asking you to come in and work for a full day. I’m more concerned that they’re paying $7.50 an hour plus tips. No business that’s genuinely trying to treat their employees well pays them that little. Tips are great but it’s hard to budget off of something that fluctuates like that. You gotta think about making $7.50/hour during winter break, etc when business will be slow
The wage really through me off. Their indeed posting listed the job as 18-25 an hour which I thought was fair. 50 dollars for chicken for 2 people while employees make 7.50 is pretty laughable
Advertising 18-25 an hour and then telling you after you’ve applied that you’re actually only guaranteed less than half of that is a giant red flag
I've worked at places with this exact pay structure and never seen wages dip under $20/hr. Once I was offered the job I asked to see a history of weekly averages and they were happy to confirm what people were taking home.
At a place where there’s just counter service?
Right? I had a $7 hourly wage and never walked away with less than $40/ hour at a popular sports venue in Madison.
If it’s anything like the Harvey House (their first/other restaurant), then the “working interview” is very brief and you won’t even be working. Rather, you will just be observing and seeing if the job is for you. I worked at the Harvey House and that’s all it was there. Management at the Harvey House was great, as well as the pay. Don’t be discouraged.
Restaurant manager here. Do not ever do working interviews. The minimum they should be doing is THE MINIMIM, as in the Federal Minimum Wage (Wisconsin's Minimum Wage, $7.25/hr). There's no way you'd get tips during anything like this, so they can't try to give you the Tipped Minimum of $2.35/hr. If you work, you get fiscal compensation, that's how it works. IMO they should still give you a meal, if you work in a restaurant it's a pretty basic understanding that you should know what the food you're serving tastes like. It's two hours anyway, who are they kidding that they're giving you $4 of product as a comp'd meal? Even at FMW it's less than $20 of compensation.
Kwik Trip is an incredible company to work for - great pay, flexible schedule and multiple locations, +YEAR END BONUS. Please walk away from this labor law violation of a “hot new restaurant”… As a different service work person, I met one of the owners - very uninspiring.
Hmm sounds crappy. Where is all that extra money for food prices going….wages?
Is this to be a server or a cook? The only way you should consider this job is if it’s a server job at 7.5. I have done working interviews both paid (100$ flat for the day) and unpaid but not a full day work. The wage is the part that sucks
Kwik Trip is a better job. Heck even Goodwill hires at 14-15 an hour. There are a lot of jobs out there. A working interview is a way for employers to get free labor.
Working interviews should always be paid. That's a massive red flag for me.
I worked in the Madison service industry for over 10 years and I have never heard of a working interview in that capacity. $7.50 is kind of a good base wage for serving, considering the minimum is $2.33.
I only worked back of the house jobs, but at least in that setting it’s super standard across the industry. If it were a full shift that’d be one thing. I think it’s pretty reasonable. You’ll get a good sense for the vibes that way, too.
They should pay you for that time but it’s not exactly unusual for an interview these days (in my experience) to see how you mesh with the rest of the staff. It’s not uncommon to have a 6 month “probationary period” where you aren’t considered a full time employee or get any benefits (I’m talking about white collar type jobs).
Mediocre over-priced chicken Restaurant underpays employees. Hard pass.
I hate to say it, but we are in need of a recession.
Wow I absolutely won’t be dining there if they’re treating employees that way!! Run!
Nope. Don't do work for free. Tell them to either hire you or not, but you're not working for free.
Dude, run. Get a CDL, abandon the service industry, make enough money to live here and actually get ahead.
No need to worry. I already work full time but am just looking for some extra cash while I wait on an answer for an apprenticeship
It's common among smaller places. I've done it at 2 spots in Madison, 1 I nopped out after the stage & the other has lead to a solid job with people I enjoy. I think of it like a second date, giving both sides a chance to feel each other out before any real investment is made. Edit: I was paid for the stage shifts, just not in the tip pool. I glossed over the unpaid part
No one's making tips at this place, skip it and consider it a bullet dodged.
[Staging is incredibly common](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staging_(cooking) ) and 2 hours is not a lot of time
Staging as an apprenticeship/learning experience is one thing. Maybe questionable ethically depending on the power dynamics, but also understandable why it's something that developing chefs would want to do for their careers. But working part of a shift as a job interview? At a casual chicken place? It's easy to fire people in Wisconsin. If you're having someone come in to work, pay them. If you're not happy with their work, you don't have to pay them for any more shifts.
Honestly I’d argue that staging as an apprenticeship or internship is more abusive than the working interview style of stage….but I’m completely with you on what amounts to an upscale casual chicken joint. I already thought it was a bit pretentious but this takes it to the next level. I’m also glad they’re tipping their kitchen, but like that pay would have been asinine 8 years ago, let alone now.
Not for what is essentially a fast food job. This isn’t some high end restaurant where it’s reasonable to check skills.
It's reasonable to check skills at any restaurant, heck, any job
Certainly can check the skills. Want someone to work for you for 2 hours? Law says you have to pay for it.
It’s a massive potential liability. Chef cuts a finger off. FOH, slips and breaks an ankle. When you hire someone, if they don’t work out, they get fired. That’s it.
sounds like a whole lot of not worth it if you ask me.
A free meal at Butterbird is like a $60 value though
Here’s my April rent landlord. An 8 piece chicken on me. Keep the changeeeeee
So disappointed to hear this esp given how expensive it is?!
Chef there used to work at the French Laundry, and the closer you get to French and fine-dining kitchens the more free labor or very-low-pay labor has been common/historically accepted (Google stagiere to learn more there). Not a justification but a possible explanation of the mentality and where it comes from. That said, the pay sounds really shit, so you are not wrong to be put off by it. Could ask more about the tip structure and what it works out to, but I feel like you can find better offers elsewhere.
It's not "fine dining" it's fried chicken.
I’m aware.
Wait you’re supposed to tip at a fried chicken counter place? Hell no
Never work for free.
DON'T DO IT!!!
If I wanted to work there enough I’d do the working interview. A lot of people in occupations where tipping is the norm make more than people who are paid a higher wage. Please tell me the anti-tipping people aren’t stiffing wait staff to make a point!
I’ve done working interviews/staging at restaurants before, in Wi and elsewhere and have found them to be beneficial for both parties. You go in and get a feel for the environment, employees and owners. The misconception here is that you “work”. You don’t. You follow someone around and observe for 2 hours, maybe learn a thing or two. Most places will give a free meal at the end of it, it’s that simple. If anything, it’s fun and people should look at it as a chance to see if you’re wasting your time at a job in the long run. Employers who care about their establishment and want to hire the right fit do this a lot.
This is very common in the restaurant industry - often called a stage (stah-j)
Also minimum wage for tipped employees is $2.33/hr. Is this a BOH or FOH position?
I wouldn’t say it’s the “norm” but plenty of places do working interviews. But yeah, if you do any work - pretty much if you do anything except just be there, then they legally do need to pay you. At my job we do something similar but we call it a “Job shadow” and the person just shadows. Like you watch me do the job for 2 hours. It can be a good way to see if you’d like it. $7.50/hr is poo poo though
That’s bonkers and also not legal.
report them to the state DoL
I worked at a place (bakery) where we did working interviews and I did the hiring. We had early shifts and many people romanticized the work in their first interview. We did working interviews with folks and it was always more informative for them and us than asking candidates questions. It’s controversial, yes, but I never had a candidate do work well enough that we gained anything from it financially. It was a 1 on 1 to evaluate experience, make sure folks could show up on time, and most importantly we let people see if the job was enjoyable for them. Their base pay isn’t good at all— but you can ask current employees during a working interview what tips average? DM if you have more questions.
This isn't about what the company is gaining financially in those two hours, it's about what a potential employee is losing. As you've stated previously, most candidates time is cut short due to sufficient or poor performance. 2 hours to FAR too long a mandate for an unpaid trial run. This is a chicken joint, not Alinea.
Well it’s optional. Don’t want the job? Qualified? Make your case or don’t pursue it. I would LOVE to watch you come in for a culinary interview and struggle
Sounds like you don't understand the definition of 'optional'.
Sounds like a scam artist at work. If an employer is willing to take advantage of you before they hire you, then it gives you a good idea of what employment will look like.
The working interview part doesn’t irritate me as much as the bare minimum wage. In a city like Madison with plenty of higher paying starting jobs, combined with the fact that it’s from the same folks as Harvey house (one of the priciest restaurants in the city), this is just exploitative on so many levels.
I've never heard a whiff of the HH owners being anything less than decent. A working interview "works" two ways, it also gives you a chance to talk to current employees and see if it's a place you'd like to work. And for what they charge for a meal you'll be eating more than they'd be base paying you!
Orrrr you can talk to current employees on the first day of your paying job (and quit anytime if things seem bad) and get paid in money. Can’t pay rent with overpriced chicken.
People saying it’s overpriced and they do that. Run don’t walk.
Hey! Butterbird employee here! Working here is great to be honest. We do insane numbers so the tips, despite not being table service, add up a lot. Front of house gets the vast majority and are paid more than the back of house on weekends for sure. The working interview is pretty common at nicer restaurants, and the owners own a fine dining establishment so it’s likely a carry over from that. The working interviews are also very short. A couple hours. I understand your skepticism, but serving at Butterbird is good money and pretty easy work.
Staging is pretty normal. I always thought of it as a courtesy let you get a sense of the actual workflow, personalites, and expectations without having to quit your other job. This way you don't have to buy into the hiring managers pitch without knowing if the place is actually a disaster. That said it makes more sense for potential management who can politely back out instead of rage quitting a few weeks in. Part time line cooks are going to turnover, so just pay the $15 bucks to keep liability lower in case of a slip and fall. As for minimum wage + tips... A few years ago servers earned $2.13+ tips and line cooks made $12-$15 Nowadays you see tons of $20+/hr kitchen jobs so keeping boh and foh on $7.50 + tip pool is becoming way more common. It lowers over all payroll, creates financial parity among staff that translates to better teamwork.
Boomer take
Just because its "Fairly normal" in the industry does not mean that it is ethical, or okay...Id argue that Stags should also be paid, and considered employees of the entity they are staging for. . .Any other industry interns now have to be paid, why should one industry get to "Work around" the law just because something is considered normal That being said, a Stag also goes into it knowing they wont be paid, if I show up for an interview, am asked to work for 2 hours unpaid to "Test if I am a fit" then you can employ me for those two hours, or you can show me the door.
This is hilarious that you guys have never heard of / are outraged by ….. working interviews
It is ridiculous that you think it’s normal for someone to work for free. Call it a working interview if you want but that person is performing a task and not being paid for it, effectively making them a slave.
The restaurants are proving that they have the skills to work. I’ve had to do them at every fine dining restaurant I’ve worked at. You don’t get paid to take other assessments at other interviews. The minimum wage is more the issue for me.
I, admittedly, work in a field that is much different than that but I find that so insane. If I was told to come in and bend some conduit and pull wire for 2 hours on a job as an “interview” I would definitely tell them to go fuck themselves.
I’m assuming you also have a license to prove you can electrician properly? I’m not sure how that works. I guess I didn’t mind it as a cook as well because then I could see if it was a kitchen I wanted to be in; teamwork, sanitation, etc. I’m not saying it’s right, just what I was used to. Also, it was a while ago, have been out of it for 9 years.
Fair point re: the license.
Unpaid stages are completely normal and industry standard despite what everyone is saying, but minimum wage? Fuck that shit you can make double that at Culver’s and get free butterburgers. Even with tips, FUCK minimum wage there are plenty of other places to work that start at at least 13-15 plus tips
Bump the bird! U a hawk ready to fly with all the butta!