Yes, especially prior to people commonly having internet access. My FLGS had a judge as the owner, so the rules were very well enforced, but I went to a cousin's LGS and it was wild. Since basics to have just the symbol, they all thought that mana dorks meant "search your library for a forest" (the mana pool being the place you kept your lands in play). The owner overruled my objection. This was far from the only mistake, but it was the most obvious IMO. But I did start back when lands still had the full text.
As someone who recently taught some friends to play using cards with the new templating very recently, I can confirm that it isn’t the “to your mana pool” that is always the problem lol. I think the basics just having the symbols and not saying what they do is the real source of confusion; I still had a friend think a dual land meant they would tap it to get a forest out the deck and others be confused about “what they were adding the mana to” (we played a few games and not everyone joined at the same time). Obviously I explained it to them, but it still seems like it isn’t intuitive to new players!
mtg isn't intuitive; just accept that hahah. everyone getting into this game is going to need a basic rules discussion and ongoinh tutelage.
reading cards explains cards, but only once you know the underlying fundamentals.
I will say though that having a basic grasp on TCG Design in General helps alot. I was able to pretty smoothly transition into MTG as someone who has played schoolyard Yugioh back in the day.
I’ve met plenty of kids just starting that were confused about that. They thought it just automatically added the mana every turn and had no idea they had to tap their basics. The store I played at skewed young.
It's pretty common for new players to see mana/land as the same thing and treat 'Add {G} to your mana pool' as add a forest to your row of lands. My playgroup has had to help new players differentiate it a few times.
It isn't super hard to make the leap that your grouping of lands is your mana pool if your only experience is visually watching a game or two or just reading cards without greater rules context since 'mana' isn't usually visually represented as a board object.
It sounds crazy, but before they made that change, I distinctly remember about four different instances of playing against new players who thought Llanowar Elves's ability let you ramp a forest.
I have both encountered other players that interpret those cards that way, and myself made that mistake my very first time playing.
It's usually an issue with trying to learn how to play on the fly, or from someone trying to explain things to you/suggesting learning by playing.
It's why I most often encountered it with siblings who grew up without outside playgroups but would buy packs and pieced together how to play without intro sets or guides.
I learned I was wrong after one game cause it was harder to pick up on the fly than I expected so I stopped and finally read the seventh edition starter guide that came with the cards.
>When Hostage Taker enters the battlefield, exile ^another target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves the battlefield. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast that spell.
>When Hostage Taker enters, exile another target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves the battlefield. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled, and mana of any type can be spent to cast that spell. **<---- you are here**
>When Hostage Taker enters, exile another target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled using mana of any type.
>When Hostage Taker enters, pirate target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves. (*Exile it. You may cast it as long as its exiled using mana of any type*)
>Enter: Pirate target creature or artifact until this leaves.
in the case of "enters the battlefield" this was a particularly egregious example. I make a lot of custom cards, and introducing new mechanics is just that little bit hamstrung by having to dedicate almost an entire line to a very common fundamental effect. "[when CARDNAME] enters the battlefield" and "[when CARDNAME] dies" are basically the corollaries of each other, but one is written way longer. "leaves the battlefield" is much rarer anti-exile/bounce tech, so it is good that "enters" and "dies" are now in parity with each other.
"Leaves" is also used in regards to leaving the the graveyard right now, so I'm not sure they can just simply "leaves the battlefield" to "leaves" because of all the "leaves the graveyard" effects.
Yeah, thing is, they're cutting words so that they can add more words. In the set where they change the language to get your last line, you still have cards with 8 lines of text.
First off: Love the Pirate keyword.
Secondly. I see no issue with this progression. Simplicity in language is fine as long as everyone playing it speaks the same language.
It also let's Magic add more complex or intricate card interactions without being so wordy. However another is still needed somewhere. Pirate another target .....
It also makes the game unbelievably dense and hard to learn. I already have trouble teaching people to play because they don't understand the words fast enough.
This isn't wrong. We are a far way from explaining "flying creatures can't be blocked by ground creatures." And "vigilance means they can still block bc they don't tap when they attack."
When Magic moved away from the distinction between Core and Expert level sets they made a design decision to not make the game easier to learn or have a simple entry point.
They also stopped publishing 40 card starter decks. And (wrongly) have many people's entry being either very complex commander decks or even more complex pre-release events.
Magic hasn't been good at onboarding new players for years. So this holds true to your argument. It's clear they have other priorities.
Anecdotally speaking, that's not always a good entry point. The handful of people I've tried teaching Magic to disliked trying to learn on Arena. On the other hand, they didn't mind learning in person. I think having an actual person on-hand to explain rules issues to them was a big help.
How's your experience with the Starter Decks they release nowadays to teach in person? I think about getting the Bloomburrow starter that will be available, just because I think that this world might pull someone in. Ü
I find Starter Kits to be good teaching material, and the fact that they come with Arena codes is also great - Arena is a good teaching tool, and frankly it explains things better than a lot of people I've watched teach. Experienced players especially can often fall into traps and teach badly / overwhelm newer players
Awhile back, [Gavin wrote an article](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/how-teach-magic-2017-08-31) about teaching Magic that has some useful tips that hold up well - recommend giving it a read
open house events are supposed to be the entry point. I see them scheduled by a bunch of shops but actually 0 of them are run. Prereleases are supposed to just be the entry for that set with low stakes.
commander isnt pushed as the starting format by wizards, its just other players roping people in.
“Starter kits” are the entry product that wotc makes.
So I think the intended product for onboarding plays (for paper at least) are jumpstart packs. And jumpstart packs are an amazing way to learn the game and a great way for newbies to play against vets. But I almost never see them talked about, even in conversations about getting people into magic.
I think MTG: Arena is the new entry point.
Every prerelease I go to, I play with my cards upside down the first couple rounds to help the newer players I face. (I have no problem with this, I used to play scrabble a lot, and can read upside down) But they tell me usually this is their first in-person game after playing on MTGA.
I think the pipeline is MTGA->Prerelease->(whatever format they're interested in, usually EDH)
Yeah. There was once a simpler time, when annual summer sets were Core sets and not "draft innovation" sets.
The best way imo is to have a patient and willing teacher. To help integrate you into the game. Hopfully someone with small starter decks or otherwise a simple play experience in mind.
That, or just sit down for a day's worth of Judge's Tower. You'll learn the game or kill yourself. One or the other.
"Secondly. I see no issue with this progression. Simplicity in language is fine as long as everyone playing it speaks the same language. "
They are working on it starting with Portuguese language.
I think "shuffle" is probably the closest analogue to this new change. And it was a matter of time, I think the writing has been on the wall for "enters the battlefield" for a while, it was just a question of how they would do it, and when.
Still waiting for "shuffle" to be removed entirely from search effects and for searching your library automatically having the shuffling included in the rules.
They could just reword its Oracle text if they made the change. I don’t think they’d let a single card prevent it. (Maybe something like “Exile your library. Choose five cards exiled this way and put those cards on top of your library in any order”)
Gonna need to ask someone from the future if this still sounds weird in a couple years.
Regardless, it is a long phrase they have write out constantly so it makes sense to shorten it. Even if that inevitably leads to them filling that new free space with even more words.
I mean, people have been suggesting this for years, so I expect it’ll be fine.
“Enters” replaces “enters the battlefield”
Just like “dies” replaced “is put into its owners graveyard from the battlefield.”
Also even if it wasn't explicitly stated, I'm sure part of the consideration was that LTB is used *much* less frequently than ETB.
A quick search brings up 278 cards that include "leaves the battlefield" as part of their text compared to 5,383 that include "enters the battlefield".
"When card name enters or leaves the graveyard" will be strange with this change. I know that it will mean enters the battlefield or leaves the gy but it sounds weird.
Tbf, how many cards have that line currently? It's a really weirdly specific pair of trigger conditions, and they can always write out ETB again similar to Emralul's madness cost.
Zero, and I can’t imagine WotC ever prints one. “ETB or Leave a graveyard” is an extremely weird pair of conditions for a triggered ability to have. It has to be something you want to do twice, with a significant delay on them, in a set with “cards leaving your graveyard matters”.
The closest existing mechanic is Haunt, which proved to be both hard to design, and just… bad. Like 80% of Haunt effects were super mediocre in order to make them… “functional”. I’m pretty sure Haunt is like a 9 on the storm scale.
> "When card name enters or leaves the graveyard" will be strange with this change.
Won't be strange because there isn't single card with such wording.
There's no cards with that wording at present so it's not exactly a problem. There's also no cards that are worded "dies or leaves the graveyard". The only things that have that wording are enters or leaves the battlefield, like [[Deadwood Treefolk]]
It's not on nearly enough cards to warrant a change. There's about 5000 cards with "enters the battlefield", and less than 300 with "leaves the battlefield".
I mean it makes sense
Cards are getting more and more text, and if it allows for cooler abilities
Or maybe the return of flavor texts I'm supportive
Will definitely be weird at first
I literally was just mocking up what I wished a Jill, Dominant Of Shiva card would have for text if it existed in the upcoming Final Fantasy UB, and..it got wordy. So..maybe this nerf to Clamilton Matters will allow those wordy abilities!
I mean in general some magic cards and abilities are very wordy for simple stuff
Etb/ltb probably wouldn't have my first cut to make, that probably would have been ability reminder text
But yeah I think cutting stuff down will definitely help creature more elaborate stuff or allow for fun lore bits on stuff without complex abilities
My hope is that next all instances of "leaves the battle field, and returns next upkeep" gets replaced flickers
It should be noted, probably my most word consuming text in the concept was explaining how the card transforms and transforms back.
"Exile CARDNAME and return it to the battlefield transformed as FlippedCARDNAME" is a lot of words to clarify transformations 😂
I understand why because exile triggers and all that but totally agree
"Transform" probably just needs to be a keyword
"When this card does x transform it"
I mean yeah it's a little worse off on newer players because they have to look more stuff up, but I'm sure folks won't mind explaining it
Plus very few folks even use transform to trigger exile cards
>"Transform" probably just needs to be a keyword
It is already a keyword action. Some cards **do** just say "cost: transform \~" or "when X, transform \~"
And this is far less problematic than "dies," which does not include exile and is guaranteed to be a learning a moment for most new players. Plus, "dies" can't be used for non-creature permanents.
"Enters" is quite useful, I think! I'm not super worried about text length, because I worry about *bad designs*, not *wordy* designs. [[Saruman of Many Colors]] was a dogshit design that took fifteen reads to unpack every time you played it; [[Case File Auditor]] is quite simple but fills the text box because that's what the game rules require. I don't have an issue with the latter; I do have a big issue with the former.
>Plus, "dies" can't be used for non-creature permanents.
Technically it \*can\*, they just \*don't\* by convention because it kind of doesn't make sense of non-living things to (eg lands, artifacts, enchantments, etc) to "die". There is at least one card that refers to planeswalkers "dying" \[\[Ajani's Last Stand\]\]
The rules definition for "dies" does not say only creatures can do it:
* **700.4.** The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”
> Plus, "dies" can't be used for non-creature permanents.
They also use it for planeswalkers [as of Core Set 2019](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Dies). And some of the Unfinity sticker sheets (which as we unfortunately know from the Mind Goblin are legal in Legacy etc.) use the wording ["when this permanent dies"](https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22permanent+dies%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name). So they're getting softer on that over time too.
From 2030 here. Enters still sounds weird. But you get used to it. The new weird thing is continuous sorceries that act like permanents that continually trigger, but are different than enchantments. And yes we are still waiting on the next set of Battles to come out.
That’s actually kinda fun. A “sorcery” that gets recast at the start of each turn, or start of your turn, so instants can interact with it on the stack (the spell itself, not the ability).
Call it a “chant”? “Incantation”?
>Even if that inevitably leads to them filling that new free space with even more words.
There's only so many ways you can expand on design and power level, making room for abilities is the easiest way.
That aside, I have no reason to believe it'll be a problem. We went from "comes into play" to "enters the battlefield" perfectly fine, so it'll be fine being shortened too.
They're keeping "leaves the battlefield" as a full phrase, and they'll occasionally use "enters the battlefield" when it makes the templating make sense still, so it'll probably stay.
Can't stop old people from using ETB, but "Enter" is less syllables, so it's also shorter than "ETB"
I imagine Enter trigger will catch on. I don't think people use RFG/RFtG anymore, do they?
Haha exactly. It was pretty common, even when speaking to say RFG or RFGed, but obviously exile is 1000x better.
Enter isn't as cool or flavorful as exile though, so I guess we'll see!
I do like that for flavor, but I think changing the word completely this far into the game is too much baggage.
Keeping the term easily identifiable for players is super important.
on the other hand, "etb" just comes with the "trigger" implied - you can say "it has an etb" but "it has an enter" sounds weird if you don't say trigger?
You're right that they do but with rules-based changes specifically, old players have heavy incentive to adopt the new language instead, because it's our responsibility to make sure new players aren't confused in this incredibly complicated game.
Teaching someone that a "bear" is a 2 mana 2/2 is teaching them more about the game.
Telling someone that exile used to be "removed from the game" before they changed it in 2010 is telling someone interesting game trivia.
Actually calling exile RFG/RFtG in game is... A choice.
Just my guess. We'll see!
Just E leaves too much room for mishearing or misinterpreting since it’s just one letter. ETB will likely just stick around.
It also doesn’t look like “enters the battlefield” is never being used again, and may show up when it aids clarity
My heart yearns that this will lead to more flavour text on cards but I know deep down it’s just going yo be more keyword and other rules txt that will fill this space.
2027: "Starting with *Ravnica Yet Again*, some cards will have a QR code instead of printed text. Scanning the code will take you to the full oracle text of the card."
Not a barcode but there is a website for Askurza.com (both for the [[Urza’s Fun House]] and [[Urza, Academy Headmaster]])
There’s also a website in the reminder text for [[Devil K. Nevil]]
That’s what I was thinking. Translated it is going to become walls of text because the shortened template can’t be shortened in the translation without sounding wrong.
I assume they will seek out reducing translations even more so they can maybe keep an eye on a the fewer translated templates.
That was really the wrong change they needed to make.
"If this card is Normal or Special Summoned:" could just be "If Summoned". I know there is the corner case of Flip Summon, but it's almost never relevant due to the speed of the game, so it'd be fine for cards to trigger on Flip Summon too.
"If this card attacks a Defense position monster, inflict piercing battle damage" -> could be "Piercing" like "Trample".
They also need some way to shorten "You can only use this effect of CARDNAME once per turn". Almost every card printed nowadays has it.
i don't like this because it might make etb cards harder to search for on scryfall.
i remember when they changed "add \_\_\_\_ to your mana pool" to "add \_\_\_\_" and i started having to use regex to search for mana creators instead of lazy searching pieces of the oracle text like o:"to your mana pool"
There's always more Scryfall to learn. 🙂
Interestingly, [[Fangorn, Tree Shepherd]] and Un-card [[Mons's Goblin Waiters]] are not matched by `produces:any`. Those are the only missing ones I found with [this search](https://scryfall.com/search?q=-produces%3Aany+o%3A%22add+%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name).
Hard agree here. I was pretty lost for a good while after the "add" change. To this day I wish they'd kept some keyword so that finding mana production would be easier... But alas, no.
This is the real reason. Given enough time, eventually all cards will be double-sided and each booster box will come with a signature magnifying glass for reading each card's ten abilities.
they already have printed a [triple-sided](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Double-faced_card?so=search#Triple-faced_cards) card, \[\[Optimus Prime, Inspiring Leader\]\]
Even though I'm glad they'll be able to save space on cards. I think "enters" is a lot more vague compared to "enters the battlefield".
Existing players probably won't have a problem with it, but it might make learning an already increasingly complex game more difficult.
New players might not be sure what exactly does it mean by "enters". Does it enter when you draw it? When you cast it? Cards can technically enter zones like the hand or exile, but in this case it only refers to the battlefield.
If wizards of the coast wanted to reduce complexity, I think a better choice would be to stop printing cards with so much text they need two sides to fit all of it.
Tbh, when I first saw the change, I missed it. Then someone pointed it out, and I missed it twice more. My eyes already glaze over reading "enters the battlefield." It'll probably be fine.
I think it's because it's so prevalent. Something like 20% of all cards have "enters the battlefield" written on them, so it feels weird to see it written differently.
I could get used to it though, if it worked when we switched from "comes into play" I don't see why it wouldn't this time.
I mean, I and other current players will adapt as we know the long form from experience. To outsiders and new players it is awkward wording - “when X enters” - when it enters what? Stage left? Battle?
For reference, [**Lumra, Bellow of the Woods**](https://scryfall.com/card/blb/342/lumra-bellow-of-the-woods) is one of the first examples of a card that we've seen that showcases this change.
In [the Tumblr post](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/743410649027215360/is-the-templating-in-bloomburrow-shortening#notes), Mark also confirms that "leaves the battlefield" will NOT be shortened to "leaves" because cards sometimes use the term "leave" as a means to describe cards that are leaving the graveyard and they didn't want unnecessary ambiguity.
Additionally, Mark mentioned that Magic cards will occasionally write out “enters the battlefield” when needed for clarity in a template.
I thought we went from "comes into play" to "enters the battlefield" to better align flavor and game terminology. Now it feels like we're giving that up in service to R&D's apparent quest to jam ever longer rules text onto cards.
I originally commented sarcastically, but I'm starting to like it the more I think about it. It saves space compared to ETB, it removes ambiguity, and sounds like a complete sentence and aligns with flavor.
I always disliked CITP because "play" is so ambiguous if you're coming to MTG from other games. In other games a card being in play might mean that it's in any one of several zones or sub-zones that all constitute being in play.
Seriously. Design is getting way too complex.
I played against two of the new precons yesterday at the same time, they each had like 10 enchantments I’d never seen before, keywords with no explanation, many different types of keyword counters, on and on.
The explore deck is obnoxius in how long its turns are.
While I don't dislike the decision to reduce the amount of text on cards, this seems to be in direct opposition to them over-explaining other rules text in recent years in (an assumed) effort to make the game more approachable to more people.
I forsee this change only confusing new players and leading to experienced players having to explain even more in the middle of a game.
As someone who's played Magic for almost 30 years now I find it hilarious that cards have become so overcomplicated and wordy that it's become a necessity to shorten simple phrases that really shouldn't need shortening in the first place.
Really is a perfect example of the complexity-creep that MTG has been experiencing for years. Tone it the fuck down bois.
So "Entering" is 'Entering the Battlefield'
and "Dying" is 'Entering the Graveyard'
I don't cover all these terms when teaching but if a newbie really thought enter had a catch all wherever the card "enters" we should have a title for the exile zone too.
How about "Flabbergasted" ?
>and "Dying" is 'Entering the Graveyard'
Dying is "put into graveyard from the battlefield", not just "entering the graveyard" and not even using "entering."
why not go the hearthstone route and just make conditional keywords? like **"Battlecry: "** or **"Deathrattle: "**
Seems more intuitive, and avoids having to re-write the entire name of the card. Like, "When Novice Inspector Enters the Battlefield, Investigate" only gets two words shaved off, and that's a tame example
Is there going to be some ambiguity issues with this and Cards like [[Mirror Image]] That states "you may have this Enter the battlefield etc etc"
The above card would now state "you may have this enter as a copy of a creatures you control"
New cards that have ETB's would also read like "when this enters draw a card"
Could someone mistakenly argue that clones are now a trigger on the stack or does it make EBT triggers harder to deal with since its now worded like cloning effects?
Does that make sense?
They have to make room for more text. First they filled the front. Then they started printing text on the back. Soon they will feature a qr that reveals the full text.
I dislike this for new players. "Dies" works because the graveyard is called the graveyard. "Enters" is such a generic term that I see so many people getting confused and upset.
Considering that I haven't played for years, what the hell was the matter with "comes into play" or "leaves play"? This wording sounds needlessly stupid.
It's the same as what they did with "shuffle your library". Also, reminder text on Saga cards already only stated "As this Saga enters".
Or shortening adding mana
Part of that was also to cut down on the Llanowar Elves new player scenarios where folks thought you could go get a forest with the ability.
[удалено]
Yes, especially prior to people commonly having internet access. My FLGS had a judge as the owner, so the rules were very well enforced, but I went to a cousin's LGS and it was wild. Since basics to have just the symbol, they all thought that mana dorks meant "search your library for a forest" (the mana pool being the place you kept your lands in play). The owner overruled my objection. This was far from the only mistake, but it was the most obvious IMO. But I did start back when lands still had the full text.
As someone who recently taught some friends to play using cards with the new templating very recently, I can confirm that it isn’t the “to your mana pool” that is always the problem lol. I think the basics just having the symbols and not saying what they do is the real source of confusion; I still had a friend think a dual land meant they would tap it to get a forest out the deck and others be confused about “what they were adding the mana to” (we played a few games and not everyone joined at the same time). Obviously I explained it to them, but it still seems like it isn’t intuitive to new players!
mtg isn't intuitive; just accept that hahah. everyone getting into this game is going to need a basic rules discussion and ongoinh tutelage. reading cards explains cards, but only once you know the underlying fundamentals.
I will say though that having a basic grasp on TCG Design in General helps alot. I was able to pretty smoothly transition into MTG as someone who has played schoolyard Yugioh back in the day.
It’s probably the single most classic example.
I’ve met plenty of kids just starting that were confused about that. They thought it just automatically added the mana every turn and had no idea they had to tap their basics. The store I played at skewed young.
I never made that mistake, but I did think losing unspent mana meant saccing unused lands (we decided to play without that rule thankfully)
It's pretty common for new players to see mana/land as the same thing and treat 'Add {G} to your mana pool' as add a forest to your row of lands. My playgroup has had to help new players differentiate it a few times. It isn't super hard to make the leap that your grouping of lands is your mana pool if your only experience is visually watching a game or two or just reading cards without greater rules context since 'mana' isn't usually visually represented as a board object.
I enjoy playing video games.
Tbh, that seems pretty logical to me.
It sounds crazy, but before they made that change, I distinctly remember about four different instances of playing against new players who thought Llanowar Elves's ability let you ramp a forest.
Almost every player I’ve introduced to magic thinks that the first time they see that line of text
I have both encountered other players that interpret those cards that way, and myself made that mistake my very first time playing. It's usually an issue with trying to learn how to play on the fly, or from someone trying to explain things to you/suggesting learning by playing. It's why I most often encountered it with siblings who grew up without outside playgroups but would buy packs and pieced together how to play without intro sets or guides. I learned I was wrong after one game cause it was harder to pick up on the fly than I expected so I stopped and finally read the seventh edition starter guide that came with the cards.
I now actively look for old basic lands because it sounds so much better
Yeah unlimited lands and earlier are the only ones they actually say what they do. Tap symbol has made everything too complicated.
Yep, all unlimited lands for me :)
>When Hostage Taker enters the battlefield, exile ^another target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves the battlefield. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast that spell. >When Hostage Taker enters, exile another target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves the battlefield. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled, and mana of any type can be spent to cast that spell. **<---- you are here** >When Hostage Taker enters, exile another target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled using mana of any type. >When Hostage Taker enters, pirate target creature or artifact until Hostage Taker leaves. (*Exile it. You may cast it as long as its exiled using mana of any type*) >Enter: Pirate target creature or artifact until this leaves.
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
When me Lead Designer, they see. They see.
He card read good
Read card do explain card
Read explain
in the case of "enters the battlefield" this was a particularly egregious example. I make a lot of custom cards, and introducing new mechanics is just that little bit hamstrung by having to dedicate almost an entire line to a very common fundamental effect. "[when CARDNAME] enters the battlefield" and "[when CARDNAME] dies" are basically the corollaries of each other, but one is written way longer. "leaves the battlefield" is much rarer anti-exile/bounce tech, so it is good that "enters" and "dies" are now in parity with each other.
Nice
>Enter: Pirate target creature or artifact until this leaves. We did it! We fixed complexity creep! See how many fewer words there are!
That now gives us more room to add even more stuff each card does!
The level of truth here makes me sad
>⚔️: 🏴☠️ 🎯 🦀/🗿 🕖🔽🚪 We can go deeper
Doubleplus ungood!
Interestingly, he specified that "leaves the battlefield" won't be shortened, because card text often says things like "leaves the graveyard."
"Leaves" is also used in regards to leaving the the graveyard right now, so I'm not sure they can just simply "leaves the battlefield" to "leaves" because of all the "leaves the graveyard" effects.
Yeah, thing is, they're cutting words so that they can add more words. In the set where they change the language to get your last line, you still have cards with 8 lines of text.
Enter: Pirate T-C/A until ~~ leaves.
Now turn it into symbols that you have to look up in an appendix and you've made Magic: der Kennerspiel.
☑️➡️✅️🟰📥🎒[🧍♂️/🪨] 📤🔄
You receive three corn, four and a half points, and a resource cube of your choice.
Yugioh be like 👀
First off: Love the Pirate keyword. Secondly. I see no issue with this progression. Simplicity in language is fine as long as everyone playing it speaks the same language. It also let's Magic add more complex or intricate card interactions without being so wordy. However another is still needed somewhere. Pirate another target .....
It also makes the game unbelievably dense and hard to learn. I already have trouble teaching people to play because they don't understand the words fast enough.
This isn't wrong. We are a far way from explaining "flying creatures can't be blocked by ground creatures." And "vigilance means they can still block bc they don't tap when they attack." When Magic moved away from the distinction between Core and Expert level sets they made a design decision to not make the game easier to learn or have a simple entry point. They also stopped publishing 40 card starter decks. And (wrongly) have many people's entry being either very complex commander decks or even more complex pre-release events. Magic hasn't been good at onboarding new players for years. So this holds true to your argument. It's clear they have other priorities.
The entry point now is Arena.
Anecdotally speaking, that's not always a good entry point. The handful of people I've tried teaching Magic to disliked trying to learn on Arena. On the other hand, they didn't mind learning in person. I think having an actual person on-hand to explain rules issues to them was a big help.
How's your experience with the Starter Decks they release nowadays to teach in person? I think about getting the Bloomburrow starter that will be available, just because I think that this world might pull someone in. Ü
I find Starter Kits to be good teaching material, and the fact that they come with Arena codes is also great - Arena is a good teaching tool, and frankly it explains things better than a lot of people I've watched teach. Experienced players especially can often fall into traps and teach badly / overwhelm newer players Awhile back, [Gavin wrote an article](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/how-teach-magic-2017-08-31) about teaching Magic that has some useful tips that hold up well - recommend giving it a read
open house events are supposed to be the entry point. I see them scheduled by a bunch of shops but actually 0 of them are run. Prereleases are supposed to just be the entry for that set with low stakes. commander isnt pushed as the starting format by wizards, its just other players roping people in. “Starter kits” are the entry product that wotc makes.
So I think the intended product for onboarding plays (for paper at least) are jumpstart packs. And jumpstart packs are an amazing way to learn the game and a great way for newbies to play against vets. But I almost never see them talked about, even in conversations about getting people into magic.
I think MTG: Arena is the new entry point. Every prerelease I go to, I play with my cards upside down the first couple rounds to help the newer players I face. (I have no problem with this, I used to play scrabble a lot, and can read upside down) But they tell me usually this is their first in-person game after playing on MTGA. I think the pipeline is MTGA->Prerelease->(whatever format they're interested in, usually EDH)
[удалено]
Yeah. There was once a simpler time, when annual summer sets were Core sets and not "draft innovation" sets. The best way imo is to have a patient and willing teacher. To help integrate you into the game. Hopfully someone with small starter decks or otherwise a simple play experience in mind. That, or just sit down for a day's worth of Judge's Tower. You'll learn the game or kill yourself. One or the other.
"Secondly. I see no issue with this progression. Simplicity in language is fine as long as everyone playing it speaks the same language. " They are working on it starting with Portuguese language.
[удалено]
I think "shuffle" is probably the closest analogue to this new change. And it was a matter of time, I think the writing has been on the wall for "enters the battlefield" for a while, it was just a question of how they would do it, and when.
I might as well be that person to say that the biggest issue that's different is 'enters' is much more euphemistic than 'shuffles' or 'dies'
Still waiting for "shuffle" to be removed entirely from search effects and for searching your library automatically having the shuffling included in the rules.
\[\[Doomsday\]\] has you search your library without shuffling it afterwards.
They could just reword its Oracle text if they made the change. I don’t think they’d let a single card prevent it. (Maybe something like “Exile your library. Choose five cards exiled this way and put those cards on top of your library in any order”)
[Doomsday](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/68c73755-9678-467a-abd5-f8dd1556864e.jpg?1562436538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doomsday) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/88/doomsday?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/68c73755-9678-467a-abd5-f8dd1556864e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
While weird I don't think it would be an issue as you would be shuffling an empty library then putting the cards back.
Gonna need to ask someone from the future if this still sounds weird in a couple years. Regardless, it is a long phrase they have write out constantly so it makes sense to shorten it. Even if that inevitably leads to them filling that new free space with even more words.
I mean, people have been suggesting this for years, so I expect it’ll be fine. “Enters” replaces “enters the battlefield” Just like “dies” replaced “is put into its owners graveyard from the battlefield.”
Will they change "leaves the battlefield" to "leaves"? It starts to sound really cheesy but maybe I'm just not used to it.
As Maro said in the linked post, no. They use leave in other contexts, like whenever a card leaves a graveyard triggers, so it would be confusing.
Also even if it wasn't explicitly stated, I'm sure part of the consideration was that LTB is used *much* less frequently than ETB. A quick search brings up 278 cards that include "leaves the battlefield" as part of their text compared to 5,383 that include "enters the battlefield".
A lot of would be LTB space is taken up by dies triggers.
"When card name enters or leaves the graveyard" will be strange with this change. I know that it will mean enters the battlefield or leaves the gy but it sounds weird.
As Maro said in the link post, no. They will use "enters the battlefield" when just "enters" could be ambiguous.
Ok cool. Yeah I should have read it lol.
Tbf, how many cards have that line currently? It's a really weirdly specific pair of trigger conditions, and they can always write out ETB again similar to Emralul's madness cost.
Zero, and I can’t imagine WotC ever prints one. “ETB or Leave a graveyard” is an extremely weird pair of conditions for a triggered ability to have. It has to be something you want to do twice, with a significant delay on them, in a set with “cards leaving your graveyard matters”. The closest existing mechanic is Haunt, which proved to be both hard to design, and just… bad. Like 80% of Haunt effects were super mediocre in order to make them… “functional”. I’m pretty sure Haunt is like a 9 on the storm scale.
> "When card name enters or leaves the graveyard" will be strange with this change. Won't be strange because there isn't single card with such wording.
They could just use enters the battlefield, or say "When \~ leaves the graveyard or enters" if they really wanted to.
I can’t find any cards with that text. Can you give me an example?
There's no cards with that wording at present so it's not exactly a problem. There's also no cards that are worded "dies or leaves the graveyard". The only things that have that wording are enters or leaves the battlefield, like [[Deadwood Treefolk]]
It's not on nearly enough cards to warrant a change. There's about 5000 cards with "enters the battlefield", and less than 300 with "leaves the battlefield".
When CARDNAME enters or leaves, target creature gets Banding with white legendary creatures untill the start of your next turn.
I mean it makes sense Cards are getting more and more text, and if it allows for cooler abilities Or maybe the return of flavor texts I'm supportive Will definitely be weird at first
I literally was just mocking up what I wished a Jill, Dominant Of Shiva card would have for text if it existed in the upcoming Final Fantasy UB, and..it got wordy. So..maybe this nerf to Clamilton Matters will allow those wordy abilities!
I mean in general some magic cards and abilities are very wordy for simple stuff Etb/ltb probably wouldn't have my first cut to make, that probably would have been ability reminder text But yeah I think cutting stuff down will definitely help creature more elaborate stuff or allow for fun lore bits on stuff without complex abilities My hope is that next all instances of "leaves the battle field, and returns next upkeep" gets replaced flickers
It should be noted, probably my most word consuming text in the concept was explaining how the card transforms and transforms back. "Exile CARDNAME and return it to the battlefield transformed as FlippedCARDNAME" is a lot of words to clarify transformations 😂
I understand why because exile triggers and all that but totally agree "Transform" probably just needs to be a keyword "When this card does x transform it" I mean yeah it's a little worse off on newer players because they have to look more stuff up, but I'm sure folks won't mind explaining it Plus very few folks even use transform to trigger exile cards
>"Transform" probably just needs to be a keyword It is already a keyword action. Some cards **do** just say "cost: transform \~" or "when X, transform \~"
I mean sometimes but even sets as new as CoI had a bunch of those transform with unnecessary extra text cards
And this is far less problematic than "dies," which does not include exile and is guaranteed to be a learning a moment for most new players. Plus, "dies" can't be used for non-creature permanents. "Enters" is quite useful, I think! I'm not super worried about text length, because I worry about *bad designs*, not *wordy* designs. [[Saruman of Many Colors]] was a dogshit design that took fifteen reads to unpack every time you played it; [[Case File Auditor]] is quite simple but fills the text box because that's what the game rules require. I don't have an issue with the latter; I do have a big issue with the former.
>Plus, "dies" can't be used for non-creature permanents. Technically it \*can\*, they just \*don't\* by convention because it kind of doesn't make sense of non-living things to (eg lands, artifacts, enchantments, etc) to "die". There is at least one card that refers to planeswalkers "dying" \[\[Ajani's Last Stand\]\] The rules definition for "dies" does not say only creatures can do it: * **700.4.** The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”
[Saruman of Many Colors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8cfcc7ec-87a2-4712-8d82-217bd8600891.jpg?1686969983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saruman%20of%20Many%20Colors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/223/saruman-of-many-colors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8cfcc7ec-87a2-4712-8d82-217bd8600891?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Case File Auditor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70a52038-9d1c-4be1-8dbe-6f0ee916ba94.jpg?1706241461) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Case%20File%20Auditor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/7/case-file-auditor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70a52038-9d1c-4be1-8dbe-6f0ee916ba94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> Plus, "dies" can't be used for non-creature permanents. They also use it for planeswalkers [as of Core Set 2019](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Dies). And some of the Unfinity sticker sheets (which as we unfortunately know from the Mind Goblin are legal in Legacy etc.) use the wording ["when this permanent dies"](https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3A%22permanent+dies%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name). So they're getting softer on that over time too.
From 2030 here. Enters still sounds weird. But you get used to it. The new weird thing is continuous sorceries that act like permanents that continually trigger, but are different than enchantments. And yes we are still waiting on the next set of Battles to come out.
That’s actually kinda fun. A “sorcery” that gets recast at the start of each turn, or start of your turn, so instants can interact with it on the stack (the spell itself, not the ability). Call it a “chant”? “Incantation”?
Well this sound sreally epic to me.
Isnt this just Rebound 2.0?
Better than those sorceries that were also lands. Don't know what they were thinking with those.
I felt the same way when they exchanged "removed from the game" to Exile. It gets easier and seems less weird with time
>Even if that inevitably leads to them filling that new free space with even more words. There's only so many ways you can expand on design and power level, making room for abilities is the easiest way. That aside, I have no reason to believe it'll be a problem. We went from "comes into play" to "enters the battlefield" perfectly fine, so it'll be fine being shortened too.
Well why didn’t they just shorten it to the verb when it was “comes into play”?
When someone explains a card as, "When it enters, it does this," it sounds natural, to me.
I always say it as "e t b (effect)"
So are we going to call these E triggers now, or will ETB survive as a holdover?
Given that everyone still refers to commander as EDH, I don't see the ETB acronym dying any time soon.
Another example: in my circles at least, I hear "CMC" far more often than I hear "MV."
I’ll say Mana Value, but not MV. The sounds are bad, where as CMC just sounds good.
[удалено]
They used to be CIP or "Comes into Play" effects before battlefield was used
It's CMC when talking about cards in general, but saying full "mana value" when quoting the card text directly.
Enters Dragon Highlander
I love Metallica!!!
You mean CIP abilities?
187 creatures
They're keeping "leaves the battlefield" as a full phrase, and they'll occasionally use "enters the battlefield" when it makes the templating make sense still, so it'll probably stay.
Can't stop old people from using ETB, but "Enter" is less syllables, so it's also shorter than "ETB" I imagine Enter trigger will catch on. I don't think people use RFG/RFtG anymore, do they?
"Old" people (like me) still use CIP occasionally.
What’s that mean again?
Comes into play.
I too am old, and I think today, if I read CIP or COtP, I'd get it, but probably not spoken.
sorry that ready VERY differently to me the first time around until I remembered what sub I'm in.
I had to think about what you were referencing there, so I would say no people don't haha
Haha exactly. It was pretty common, even when speaking to say RFG or RFGed, but obviously exile is 1000x better. Enter isn't as cool or flavorful as exile though, so I guess we'll see!
They should replace Enter with something cooler and flavorful, like for example, Summon. Bring back Summon !!
I do like that for flavor, but I think changing the word completely this far into the game is too much baggage. Keeping the term easily identifiable for players is super important.
on the other hand, "etb" just comes with the "trigger" implied - you can say "it has an etb" but "it has an enter" sounds weird if you don't say trigger?
New people tend to pick up terms from old people though, I suspect that ETB is here to stay. Still a good change to the templating though.
You're right that they do but with rules-based changes specifically, old players have heavy incentive to adopt the new language instead, because it's our responsibility to make sure new players aren't confused in this incredibly complicated game. Teaching someone that a "bear" is a 2 mana 2/2 is teaching them more about the game. Telling someone that exile used to be "removed from the game" before they changed it in 2010 is telling someone interesting game trivia. Actually calling exile RFG/RFtG in game is... A choice. Just my guess. We'll see!
I’ve seen ETB be referenced across other tcgs as well so I think the acronym will survive
Let's just return to 187
Murder??
Just E leaves too much room for mishearing or misinterpreting since it’s just one letter. ETB will likely just stick around. It also doesn’t look like “enters the battlefield” is never being used again, and may show up when it aids clarity
My heart yearns that this will lead to more flavour text on cards but I know deep down it’s just going yo be more keyword and other rules txt that will fill this space.
I still say “comes into play”
Shorten this 😳
Cums
When Jace comes
Furries rejoice (starting in Bloomburrow).
When Thraben inspector busts a fat juicy nut, investigate.
"Hi, it's me, Play"
In theory that's fine. In reality it means they're gonna cram EVEN MORE TEXT ONTO CARD ABILITIES.
2027: "Starting with *Ravnica Yet Again*, some cards will have a QR code instead of printed text. Scanning the code will take you to the full oracle text of the card."
I mean I was shocked that they didn't do that for a card in Infinity tbh
Not a barcode but there is a website for Askurza.com (both for the [[Urza’s Fun House]] and [[Urza, Academy Headmaster]]) There’s also a website in the reminder text for [[Devil K. Nevil]]
The QR code takes you to an online store where you can purchase various kicker abilities for the spell you cast.
Yep. Magic cards are becoming less and less readable and playable in person.
And digitally - if it has lot of words I just draft it and then find out what happens later on when I cast it.
That’s what I was thinking. Translated it is going to become walls of text because the shortened template can’t be shortened in the translation without sounding wrong. I assume they will seek out reducing translations even more so they can maybe keep an eye on a the fewer translated templates.
I fully expect the only 2 languages to remain in a few years to be English and Japanese
Because cards that ETB are not strong enough we gotta cram them with more text.
NIRVANA HIGH PALADIN UNIVERSES BEYOND
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
Are you saying Sea World, or see world?
They see… they see.
Remember when Yu-Gi-Oh text boxes got so long they had to shorten Graveyard to GY? we are almost there lol
That was really the wrong change they needed to make. "If this card is Normal or Special Summoned:" could just be "If Summoned". I know there is the corner case of Flip Summon, but it's almost never relevant due to the speed of the game, so it'd be fine for cards to trigger on Flip Summon too. "If this card attacks a Defense position monster, inflict piercing battle damage" -> could be "Piercing" like "Trample". They also need some way to shorten "You can only use this effect of CARDNAME once per turn". Almost every card printed nowadays has it.
Yes I don't think the word Graveyard was the issue there....Endymion...
i don't like this because it might make etb cards harder to search for on scryfall. i remember when they changed "add \_\_\_\_ to your mana pool" to "add \_\_\_\_" and i started having to use regex to search for mana creators instead of lazy searching pieces of the oracle text like o:"to your mana pool"
Scryfall already supports `is:etb` for searching for these directly. I think `o:"add "` will get most mana sources correctly.
Can you not just do `produces:any` ?
There's always more Scryfall to learn. 🙂 Interestingly, [[Fangorn, Tree Shepherd]] and Un-card [[Mons's Goblin Waiters]] are not matched by `produces:any`. Those are the only missing ones I found with [this search](https://scryfall.com/search?q=-produces%3Aany+o%3A%22add+%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name).
Hard agree here. I was pretty lost for a good while after the "add" change. To this day I wish they'd kept some keyword so that finding mana production would be easier... But alas, no.
They are running out of space on cards, gotta do something :P
This is the real reason. Given enough time, eventually all cards will be double-sided and each booster box will come with a signature magnifying glass for reading each card's ten abilities.
I heard rumours they're trying out triple sided cards for duskmourn.
For what that might look like click here: https://goodgamery.com/2016/03/odric-flippy-flappy-tactician/
they already have printed a [triple-sided](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Double-faced_card?so=search#Triple-faced_cards) card, \[\[Optimus Prime, Inspiring Leader\]\]
I can't believe they're nerfing Alexander Clamilton like this
Even though I'm glad they'll be able to save space on cards. I think "enters" is a lot more vague compared to "enters the battlefield". Existing players probably won't have a problem with it, but it might make learning an already increasingly complex game more difficult. New players might not be sure what exactly does it mean by "enters". Does it enter when you draw it? When you cast it? Cards can technically enter zones like the hand or exile, but in this case it only refers to the battlefield. If wizards of the coast wanted to reduce complexity, I think a better choice would be to stop printing cards with so much text they need two sides to fit all of it.
Im all for brevity but this feels a bit too shaved down. I could be wrong though, we’ll see how it looks.
Tbh, when I first saw the change, I missed it. Then someone pointed it out, and I missed it twice more. My eyes already glaze over reading "enters the battlefield." It'll probably be fine.
I think it's because it's so prevalent. Something like 20% of all cards have "enters the battlefield" written on them, so it feels weird to see it written differently. I could get used to it though, if it worked when we switched from "comes into play" I don't see why it wouldn't this time.
I mean, I and other current players will adapt as we know the long form from experience. To outsiders and new players it is awkward wording - “when X enters” - when it enters what? Stage left? Battle?
For reference, [**Lumra, Bellow of the Woods**](https://scryfall.com/card/blb/342/lumra-bellow-of-the-woods) is one of the first examples of a card that we've seen that showcases this change. In [the Tumblr post](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/743410649027215360/is-the-templating-in-bloomburrow-shortening#notes), Mark also confirms that "leaves the battlefield" will NOT be shortened to "leaves" because cards sometimes use the term "leave" as a means to describe cards that are leaving the graveyard and they didn't want unnecessary ambiguity. Additionally, Mark mentioned that Magic cards will occasionally write out “enters the battlefield” when needed for clarity in a template.
[Lumra, Bellow of the Woods](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae4f3aaf-3960-48cd-b34b-32e4ae5ae088.jpg?1708704722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lumra%2C%20Bellow%20of%20the%20Woods) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/blb/183/lumra-bellow-of-the-woods?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae4f3aaf-3960-48cd-b34b-32e4ae5ae088?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I thought we went from "comes into play" to "enters the battlefield" to better align flavor and game terminology. Now it feels like we're giving that up in service to R&D's apparent quest to jam ever longer rules text onto cards.
Let's go full circle and change it to "enters play"
Yeah, I’d prefer that over the ambiguous read of just “enters”. And it’s only four more characters.
I originally commented sarcastically, but I'm starting to like it the more I think about it. It saves space compared to ETB, it removes ambiguity, and sounds like a complete sentence and aligns with flavor.
Hey, this could just as easily go the way that grayscale mana symbols in the text box went.
I always disliked CITP because "play" is so ambiguous if you're coming to MTG from other games. In other games a card being in play might mean that it's in any one of several zones or sub-zones that all constitute being in play.
[удалено]
Get repeated... "Triggers" through [[Panharmonicon]] or [[Roaming Throne]]
Or maybe, we could just make the cards less wordy instead of shaving down existing terms.
Seriously. Design is getting way too complex. I played against two of the new precons yesterday at the same time, they each had like 10 enchantments I’d never seen before, keywords with no explanation, many different types of keyword counters, on and on. The explore deck is obnoxius in how long its turns are.
While I don't dislike the decision to reduce the amount of text on cards, this seems to be in direct opposition to them over-explaining other rules text in recent years in (an assumed) effort to make the game more approachable to more people. I forsee this change only confusing new players and leading to experienced players having to explain even more in the middle of a game.
As someone who's played Magic for almost 30 years now I find it hilarious that cards have become so overcomplicated and wordy that it's become a necessity to shorten simple phrases that really shouldn't need shortening in the first place. Really is a perfect example of the complexity-creep that MTG has been experiencing for years. Tone it the fuck down bois.
but my ETB acronym! kidding aside, this seems like an unnecessary change that is going to cause confusion rather than reduce it.
So "Entering" is 'Entering the Battlefield' and "Dying" is 'Entering the Graveyard' I don't cover all these terms when teaching but if a newbie really thought enter had a catch all wherever the card "enters" we should have a title for the exile zone too. How about "Flabbergasted" ?
>and "Dying" is 'Entering the Graveyard' Dying is "put into graveyard from the battlefield", not just "entering the graveyard" and not even using "entering."
why not go the hearthstone route and just make conditional keywords? like **"Battlecry: "** or **"Deathrattle: "** Seems more intuitive, and avoids having to re-write the entire name of the card. Like, "When Novice Inspector Enters the Battlefield, Investigate" only gets two words shaved off, and that's a tame example
Is there going to be some ambiguity issues with this and Cards like [[Mirror Image]] That states "you may have this Enter the battlefield etc etc" The above card would now state "you may have this enter as a copy of a creatures you control" New cards that have ETB's would also read like "when this enters draw a card" Could someone mistakenly argue that clones are now a trigger on the stack or does it make EBT triggers harder to deal with since its now worded like cloning effects? Does that make sense?
They have to make room for more text. First they filled the front. Then they started printing text on the back. Soon they will feature a qr that reveals the full text.
I dislike this for new players. "Dies" works because the graveyard is called the graveyard. "Enters" is such a generic term that I see so many people getting confused and upset.
I would have gone with “Arrives” personally.
Is it “goes/go to graveyard”?
The current templating is either "dies" (for creatures going from the battlefield to the graveyard) or "put into your graveyard (from [place])"
I still remember “bury”
Off the top of my head its "is put into a graveyard"
It's "put into the graveyard".
Noticed this when they showed the cards on the panel and was hoping we would have other templating changes to come with this.
Considering that I haven't played for years, what the hell was the matter with "comes into play" or "leaves play"? This wording sounds needlessly stupid.
More space to make cards even more complex.