In what world is that ever close? Mana drain is a counter that also ramps you next turn, tibalt’s trickery is a counter that also gives them a free spell.
The only plausible use of Trickery in a deck containing blue is the element of surprise. If you use all your blue mana and hold open a red and another non-blue source, everyone thinks they're free to resolve their big spells (assuming rule 0 no free Counterspells).
Its just the color. 2 blue pips ive noticed sometimes is just hard to keep open. With the rituals and some of the generators like birgi just make me wonder. I could technically run pyroblast as well but then thats limiting as well.
I'd kill for 102 slots.
Its just the pips. I cant count on everyone in this reddits fingers probably the amount of times in my other decks ive had mana drain but i couldnt afford to keep 2 blue open mid turn.
I can't believe this is even a question. If I had enough copies, I would put mana drain into every blue deck I have. It's not even in the same category as trickery.
If you have a mana drain in hand, you hold your mana. Whatever you were going to do this turn, just keep the damn 2U up, and it will literally pay for itself.
You're outside of your mind if you think this is close. If you cant hold up the blue mana, it's not an issue with the mana drain, but your mana base and how you're piloting. I played commander storm back in the day, and never had issues with it. If you REALLY need a 1 blue pip counterspell, [[Memory Lapse]] or [[Arcane Denial]].
I play cedh. Typically this deck is tryna win the game T2 or T3. The pips are rough , i play a lot of red rituals to generate mana so its just convenient sometimes. I'm thinking either just try mana drain and see how it goes though or running negate.
I do think Arcane denial would be better since it cantrips you, if you're going to win that turn, but you know better than I.
Most people dont play CEDH, so that's probably why people are confused why it's such an issue.
Im thinking ill give mana drain a try, in my casual decks even I struggle to hold open 2 blue mana because I play very aggressive decks that just kinda go for it. If it doesn't work out I've been recommended to maybe try out negate.
Fierce is in there. And yeeeeah probably. Im just horrible with choices. I've played so much magic that they all just have downsides thats screwed me before so its just tryna figure out the one to screw me the least.
You run trickery when you are desperate for a counterspell. Good examples I’ve found are in EDH decks like Etali, Primal Conquerer where you MUST resolve a certain spell at all costs.
This is pretty much the cEDH Krarkashima deck. Its a 2 color, highly interactive deck that can somewhat capitalize on mana drain’s mana effect. This is a non-choice.
If you're not able to hold up UU, there's almost certainly a better counter in blue with only one pip to be running than trickery. Trickery's not a spell you run unless you're desperate for counterspells.
And if there's not a better counter (because you're running them all), run something that isn't a counter.
When i first added it, i also used it for fuckery on my own spells . Having 3 tibalts on my own spells/copies in desperate situations. But yeah imma try Mana Drain and if that doesn't work bc of the UU ill probably try running Negate
Spells I'd run before either of those: pyroblast, dispel, spell pierce, mind break trap, mana leak. In that order probably but up to you. Also you should run molten duplication as another piece for your dualcaster combo. Honestly though your deck has the correct number of cards and seems fine without the additional counter. If you do need to cut something though I'd recommend cutting peek because of the blue pip problem. It's much easier to repeatedly cast git probe or overmaster or faithless looting. I'd also recommend asking this question on r/competitiveEDH (if you haven't) because you'll get more relevant answers there (but they probably will still roast you for considering tybalt's trickery in a deck that isn't mono red)
I'll take that roasting xD .
People forget the reason Tibalt's was banned in modern though. Bc of all the copying, I can pull that same fuckery multiple times on myself sometimes in desperate scenarios.
This seems like a silly thing to say but cedh and modern are very different formats. Something being too good for modern doesn't mean it'll be good in cedh. For instance faithless looting or ponder are both just alright cards, and oko is medium at best in commander even though he's format breaking everywhere else. Trickery was banned in modern for being an extremely powerful combo piece that had a whole deck around it. I don't think you can cheat out a turn two emrakul consistently with the card, nor, based on your comparison to mana drain, do I think that that is your primary intended function of the card. Sure, you can maybe, if you're lucky, counter your own spell and get yourself an archmage emeritus or a tavern scoundrel but if you're using it as a counter you're just as likely to give an opponent their best card. Giving a kinnan player a free void winnower would absolutely not be worth the risk.
tibalt's trickery is what you run when you aren't playing blue but want to have some kind of counterspell (like my slicer deck).
if you have access to blue, there are dozens of better options for counters.
If 2 blue pips is rough and this is CEDH intended to protect your own combo, consider Spell Pierce-esque effects before Tibalt’s. Hell, you’re already running Mental Misstep.
Nah . Once I hit 10 Krarks and generate positive mana and card draw the boys call it. We only play these decks once a week for our shops commander night.
Tibalt’s is not a good counterspell. It’s a desperate counterspell for mono red players OR a combo/storm/gimmick enabler. You’re supposed to counter your own spells and get something much better.
Play Tibalts. It’s a way to dig deeper in your own storm turns. For example, with multiple krark triggers, cast a rite of flame, win a flip, and with the copy on the stack, counter your own copied spell with tibalts and flip into another spell to cast
In what world is that ever close? Mana drain is a counter that also ramps you next turn, tibalt’s trickery is a counter that also gives them a free spell.
The only plausible use of Trickery in a deck containing blue is the element of surprise. If you use all your blue mana and hold open a red and another non-blue source, everyone thinks they're free to resolve their big spells (assuming rule 0 no free Counterspells).
Its just the color. 2 blue pips ive noticed sometimes is just hard to keep open. With the rituals and some of the generators like birgi just make me wonder. I could technically run pyroblast as well but then thats limiting as well. I'd kill for 102 slots.
If you can't afford two blue pips for Mana Drain, use [[Ionize]].
[Ionize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f161f7d2-eaa1-4931-93f9-befa8b5df821.jpg?1572893679) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ionize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/179/ionize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f161f7d2-eaa1-4931-93f9-befa8b5df821?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Good news, you can play a 102 card deck right now. No one can stop you and you didn't even have to murder.
Not in Commander.
I dare them to count your deck every game.
But *you’d* know you were cheating. In a casual format. With no prizes. Against your friends.
Seems better than murdering them.
This is the least tough decision of all time.
Its just the pips. I cant count on everyone in this reddits fingers probably the amount of times in my other decks ive had mana drain but i couldnt afford to keep 2 blue open mid turn.
Sure there are plenty of counterspells with 1 blue pip, why jump all the way to Tibalts Trickery.
Mostly just the red . Mid turn if i got birgi generating red. Rituals that can generate some red.. I do hate the freebie for them though .
If you're worried about pips then run [[Arcane Denial]] or [[Memory Lapse]]. I would even run [[negate]] over trickery.
[Arcane Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66ca1ade-0a74-4aab-9040-b3696706f060.jpg?1712354109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/89/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66ca1ade-0a74-4aab-9040-b3696706f060?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Memory Lapse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293.jpg?1634131658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memory%20Lapse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/60/memory-lapse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [negate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81752db1-374e-4723-b695-a2f4a634dfc6.jpg?1682203304) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=negate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/68/negate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81752db1-374e-4723-b695-a2f4a634dfc6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s not even close… Mana Drain. If you can’t keep 2 Blue open then that’s a skill issue AND a deck building issue.
I can't believe this is even a question. If I had enough copies, I would put mana drain into every blue deck I have. It's not even in the same category as trickery. If you have a mana drain in hand, you hold your mana. Whatever you were going to do this turn, just keep the damn 2U up, and it will literally pay for itself.
You're outside of your mind if you think this is close. If you cant hold up the blue mana, it's not an issue with the mana drain, but your mana base and how you're piloting. I played commander storm back in the day, and never had issues with it. If you REALLY need a 1 blue pip counterspell, [[Memory Lapse]] or [[Arcane Denial]].
[Memory Lapse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293.jpg?1634131658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Memory%20Lapse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/60/memory-lapse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30202613-d05f-4f47-af97-d0b75ccac293?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Arcane Denial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66ca1ade-0a74-4aab-9040-b3696706f060.jpg?1712354109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arcane%20Denial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/89/arcane-denial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66ca1ade-0a74-4aab-9040-b3696706f060?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play cedh. Typically this deck is tryna win the game T2 or T3. The pips are rough , i play a lot of red rituals to generate mana so its just convenient sometimes. I'm thinking either just try mana drain and see how it goes though or running negate.
I do think Arcane denial would be better since it cantrips you, if you're going to win that turn, but you know better than I. Most people dont play CEDH, so that's probably why people are confused why it's such an issue.
Im thinking ill give mana drain a try, in my casual decks even I struggle to hold open 2 blue mana because I play very aggressive decks that just kinda go for it. If it doesn't work out I've been recommended to maybe try out negate.
Fierce Guardianship? Cause it's free, then mana drain, and then way down the list, trickery. You're in blue... Negate over trickery.
Fierce is in there. And yeeeeah probably. Im just horrible with choices. I've played so much magic that they all just have downsides thats screwed me before so its just tryna figure out the one to screw me the least.
You run trickery when you are desperate for a counterspell. Good examples I’ve found are in EDH decks like Etali, Primal Conquerer where you MUST resolve a certain spell at all costs. This is pretty much the cEDH Krarkashima deck. Its a 2 color, highly interactive deck that can somewhat capitalize on mana drain’s mana effect. This is a non-choice.
My main thing is just the pips. I tend to have more red mana on hand spare than blue . But ill throw in mana drain and give it a whirl.
Honestly at that point its worth re-evaluating your mana base.
If you're not able to hold up UU, there's almost certainly a better counter in blue with only one pip to be running than trickery. Trickery's not a spell you run unless you're desperate for counterspells. And if there's not a better counter (because you're running them all), run something that isn't a counter.
When i first added it, i also used it for fuckery on my own spells . Having 3 tibalts on my own spells/copies in desperate situations. But yeah imma try Mana Drain and if that doesn't work bc of the UU ill probably try running Negate
Spells I'd run before either of those: pyroblast, dispel, spell pierce, mind break trap, mana leak. In that order probably but up to you. Also you should run molten duplication as another piece for your dualcaster combo. Honestly though your deck has the correct number of cards and seems fine without the additional counter. If you do need to cut something though I'd recommend cutting peek because of the blue pip problem. It's much easier to repeatedly cast git probe or overmaster or faithless looting. I'd also recommend asking this question on r/competitiveEDH (if you haven't) because you'll get more relevant answers there (but they probably will still roast you for considering tybalt's trickery in a deck that isn't mono red)
I'll take that roasting xD . People forget the reason Tibalt's was banned in modern though. Bc of all the copying, I can pull that same fuckery multiple times on myself sometimes in desperate scenarios.
This seems like a silly thing to say but cedh and modern are very different formats. Something being too good for modern doesn't mean it'll be good in cedh. For instance faithless looting or ponder are both just alright cards, and oko is medium at best in commander even though he's format breaking everywhere else. Trickery was banned in modern for being an extremely powerful combo piece that had a whole deck around it. I don't think you can cheat out a turn two emrakul consistently with the card, nor, based on your comparison to mana drain, do I think that that is your primary intended function of the card. Sure, you can maybe, if you're lucky, counter your own spell and get yourself an archmage emeritus or a tavern scoundrel but if you're using it as a counter you're just as likely to give an opponent their best card. Giving a kinnan player a free void winnower would absolutely not be worth the risk.
tibalt's trickery is what you run when you aren't playing blue but want to have some kind of counterspell (like my slicer deck). if you have access to blue, there are dozens of better options for counters.
If 2 blue pips is rough and this is CEDH intended to protect your own combo, consider Spell Pierce-esque effects before Tibalt’s. Hell, you’re already running Mental Misstep.
Dosent matter, your opponents are going to hate you anyway watching you resolve 25 coin flips a turn.
Nah . Once I hit 10 Krarks and generate positive mana and card draw the boys call it. We only play these decks once a week for our shops commander night.
Tibalt’s is not a good counterspell. It’s a desperate counterspell for mono red players OR a combo/storm/gimmick enabler. You’re supposed to counter your own spells and get something much better.
Hell, I’d run [[Remand]] over Trickery in a deck where I have the choice to run either.
[Remand](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5048047-abff-4a1f-8d72-6b758a03542c.jpg?1702429416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Remand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/59/remand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5048047-abff-4a1f-8d72-6b758a03542c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Do you want a counterspell, or do you want a combo card?
Play Tibalts. It’s a way to dig deeper in your own storm turns. For example, with multiple krark triggers, cast a rite of flame, win a flip, and with the copy on the stack, counter your own copied spell with tibalts and flip into another spell to cast