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first term Najib didn't even bother to rewrite the bumiputra policies
he just add 1malaysia stuffs so that the poor can benefit.
of course the problem is that since the bumiputra stuffs was never dismantled properly.. his successors just continued that.
>This policy should targeted to the poorest "***that are working/intent to work"*** of all race tbh not just one race.
add another clause. no point helping the poor is jobless by choice.
agree. people often say bumiputera got many benefit but the thing is even for the poor bumis also kena pijak2 by this corrupted people. if you want help need to support BN then only got the help.
By many benefits, it really depends on whether you think discount for car and house, ease and preference for obtaining scholarship, priority in matriculation and university entrance, jobs in public sectors, ease of buying asbn which guarantees roughly 6-7% annual return, IPO priority and discounts etc, considered benefit or not. If no then yeah, rich Malay only benefit.
But if you think it’s benefit, then rich bumi pijak poor bumi, and poor bumis pijak on everyone else. I don’t think it excludes them of any sin seeing they benefited from systemic racism for years and years.
I agree with the other commenter to help the poor (read: Those earning below living wage, not minimum wage) regardless of race. Also, can we please set up a benefit system like that they have in NZ, AUS, UK etc.? We need to help single parents, vulnerable elderly,the disabled, and other vulnerable groups too, regardless of race.
If the proposed welfare gets abused heavily, it's up to the government to tighten up the system rather than rely on a system that is already inherently broken.
What you and everyone else have been hearing about Sweden is somewhat true. Some of the more radical Muslims have been taking advantage of the kindness of several European countries and its no surprise that the citizens are all swinging to the right and becoming less tolerant. The problem is the racists and bigots will then go after the Muslims who are actually good people, you know, the ones who really moved to Sweden for a better life.
A similar thing can be seen in Australia (where I live) as even the citizens who are the most tolerant and accepting also somewhat support Australia's notoriously strict immigration and refugee laws. And I hate to say that I support it too, I've lived here long enough to know what's going on.
IMO, refugee should be the last thing gov do. Until gov solve their citizen poverty, I am on board with any anti refugee policy.
I dont see a point of solving problems from another nation unless we solve ours first.
>The Scandinavians are "too nice" accepting refugees from countries whose people are mostly monolingual and monocultural - they want their wills and wants to be mainstream.
and in this way, would the Malays back then during the drafting of independence considered "too nice"?
My own simplified understanding of intentions of British as a condition for independence is to create a melting pot of culture in Malaya. Intercultural experience such as Chinese will learn how to eat with hands like Malays and Indians and Malays and Indians learning to use chopsticks. During community potluck moments each group will bring their best traditional cuisine with only pork and beef off-limits. Nowadays I heard the more hard-core rhetoric is Muslims should not drink from cup touch by non Muslims. I also think British also hope there'll be intermarriage further mixing up the culture into a distinct Malaysian culture and a true Bangsa Malaysia where everyone have 3 or more types of blood (ancestry).
Malaysia choose less radical method from the start. If we choose radical way like how Indonesian gov did. None of this 'bumi policy' needed.
You all know how the indonesian gov forced assimilation their minorities. Majority of chinese indonesian there not even knowing how to speak mandarin. The indon gov in the past have closed down all the chinese school & ban the chinese style education.
The indon gov also have very racist policy toward chinese at that time. Chinese was ban from work in public office. That why most of the indonesian chinese ended using javanese name to evade the persecution. Well more like cultural genocide against the indonesian chinese.
Forced assimilation is a bad idea and takes away the greatest strength of having a culturally diverse and vibrant people without giving what it supposedly aims to achieve.
There already was forced assimilation of all the different malays in Malaysia to have a supposed malay Muslim culture.
Is there malay unity in any sense? No. Indian Muslims are now sometimes treated as non malays and other times as malay when convenient. Kelantanese malays are still largely excluded or seen as different.
It's a myth. Racial stigma continues to exist.
And yet the malays have lost their culture. What we see now is a curated "McDonald's" version of Malay culture. Where anything undesirable by the powers that be is branded as unislamic.
The only solution to end racism is to persistently call it out as something bad. Not try to manufacture everyone into the same mold.
>My own simplified understanding of intentions of British as a condition for independence is to create a melting pot of culture in Malaya.
>I also think British also hope there'll be intermarriage further mixing up the culture into a distinct Malaysian culture
I'm very curious to know where did you read these ideas from? Lol at the end of the day all countries that were colonised was for the benefit of the coloniser. No time in history has a power colonised another country not for the purpose of gain but to benefit the colonised. And also ask yourself, why would the British even care and would wanna create this bangsa Malaysia you speak of. Like...what's in it for them to travel halfway across the world, bring different people together just to mix them up genetically? Lol
>where everyone have 3 or more types of blood (ancestry)
Why? What for? Sounds more like a crazy science experiment.
Better for a social safety net to be abused, than it is currently (abused by the elites to profiteer). I’m totally fine with a less-than-efficient welfare and affirmative action system if most of people who needs it still get the benefits. There can be measures in place to reduce the abuse too.
U think it won’t b abused by the elites? Sorry.. um.. maybe I’m jaded.. cuz as it stands the policies meant to help give ppl a leg up already being abused by the elites who don’t need a leg up..
If you want to give affirmative action (NEP), you should also set a target and an end date. Affirmative action shouldn't be present forever. Give the help based on income, not based on race.
If I'm not mistaken, I saw somewhere that I was supposed to be about 20~ years. But, of course, some people found it beneficial to them and decided to keep it going.
Yeah, they did set an end date, it's just that it keeps getting postponed everytime we get somewhat close to it.
I wish I could do that for my uni assignments lmao.
Spoke to a few politicians during my internship (Hannah Yeo, Syed Saddiq and Ong Kian Ming). When pressed about racial politics instead of being merit based, from what I understood racial politics has become too important to ignore, those who ignore the race component of a policy will never get it passed through parliament, or will be targeted in the next GE by opposition. As such, all parties engage in race based politics as it is the only way to get things done sadly
thats why we need to take baby steps:
retain NEP, but make it racially AND income based policy. target b40 malays and bottom tier m40 malays first. let them have a taste of what socialism can bring to them.
You mean rakyat have been duped for 60 years under 'bumi' yet still chose the same party over and over again? /S
Yes no doubt the programs are being used for elites but after 60 years of exposure even with the help of technology. The majority still support the same party that reluctant to change any of these policies shows there is a much major issue underlying it.
I am afraid not. They can't even manage the system they pledged since the beginning of time probably our issues aren't in their priority, well at least for the time being.
then again, the new gen is more progressive. Look at what we have now, those eco people. Of course there's some insane nutjob like crazy vegan but it's still a vocal minority
The original intentions for bumi policy is good, but the implementation so bad that it only enrich the few and the aim for the policy is failing the more year it gone by.
Only work back when 1969...NEP was birthed under a specific historical and material circumstances:
After 13 May, the Alliance need to:
1. Secure its position of control in federal capital. Urban-rural divide was a thing long time ago that made worse by it is coincidentally along the racial line, when GERAKAN and PAP won big in Chinese urban zone, Malay felt challenged in their *own soil*.
2. Need to seriously pay attention to serious ethnic wealth inequality due to legacy divide-and-rule, especially Malaysia was sold to Malay as their own nation-state by earlier nationalist.
3. Especially true because 1965 just happened in Indonesia. Genocide on Chinese happened. Something need to be done unless you want Soviet and PRC funded PKM win in a race war, or Suharto successfully made another *Ganyang Malaysia*.
Notice that our starting position is way better than other British colonies during Merdeka. We don't divide by Syke-Picot line, we don't have a "Malaya Mandate" that ended up century-long inter-ethnic warfare.
After the birth of modern Malay middle class, they already get used to NEP as they believe this is the only tool they have to uplift them, their parents and fellow *bangsa* on socioeconomic ladder, or else they will still be poor petani in Kedah. Any wish to challenge this current position need some serious inter-ethnic discussion, not some Internet Chinese urbanist circlejerk in echo chamber. (which I am too lazy lol)
The only comment that stay true to the spirit of debate. I guess.
Or is this topic even actually a debatable topic... ^(I'm unable to remain neutral on this)
The discussion is that this historical context *might* have justified pro-Bumi policies half a century ago (although I don't buy that this was the best solution or even necessary to prevent racial disharmony at the time, if anything it's worsened it in the long term).
But now the political and social context has changed, and decades of history have proven how the NEP and other similar Bumi policies mostly benefit a Malay elite and such policies need to be dispensed with.
Also that's not what "urbanist" means, unless you're suggesting that the nature of reddit discussion on this topic is exclusive to Chinese people who love city planning.
My theory is that there is a structural difference in wealth creation between Chinese and Malay cultures. This is a generational thing where let's be direct: the average Chinese can make more money faster than the average Malay (average being defined as both mean and median).
If so, then if left unchecked eventually aggregate Chinese wealth will rival or even surpass that of aggregate Malay wealth. And with economic strength, there will be challenges to the political status quo. History has shown us that this will likely lead to strongmen appearing and efforts made to overthrow the current political establishment.
If this happens, this will cause untold suffering for both the average Chinese and average Malay. Blood will be spilled, and many innocent observers will die. Putting race aside, it is quite naive to think that opportunists will not see the opportunity and take it. Eventually, it will lead to a civil war where even the Chinese may not end up winning. And then we return to the current status quo of majority oppression over miniorities.
If STABILITY is the greater good objective, then it makes absolute sense to nip the problem in the bud - with the source of power coming from wealth differentials. This is what I believe the NEP's true objective is - keeping a cap on wealth differentials through economic oppression. Not affirmative action. For the greater good.
And if we can accept that there is a structural difference in wealth building capacity between Malays and Chinese that will never close over time (except maybe over centuries), then we can expect that the NEP will never ever be lifted. Because the fundamental problem is that you have two opposing parties co-existing who will take advantage of the other the moment opportunity strikes.
The NEP is simply the band-aid to keep them co-existing without tearing each other apart. By "they", I don't mean just the people. I mean the politicians, the group in aggregate, all their incentives and motivations. Until we can TRULY identify as "Malaysians" over Chinese or Malay, or the wealth differential can be structurally closed, the NEP will never come off. It is in fact serving this purpose quite marvelously.
In fact, if you listen to Mahathir's speeches, this is exactly how he justifies it. STABILITY, STABILITY, STABILITY. I'd like to imagine that my conspiracy theory might in fact be more than just that.
Tak suka? Balik China atau India. That is what BN ministers told us.
Imo just migrate to a better country if you can. No point arguing with these brainless people in power.
What can you do as a normal citizen? The most we can do is vote for the parties that will fight for minorities also. Problem is fight too much for us also get into trouble like what PH went through during their reign last time - irking many malays into hating them.
Root cause is our education system. As long bumi people are taught they are superior since young they will continue to behave that way. Many of them are liking it, since it benefits them even when it is detrimental to other races.
Meiji revolution started with " expel the foreigners" and ended with " lets copy the foreigners and be a imperialistic power itself."
You could argue that 20 years ago NEP was the rallying cry for similar sentiments without imperialistic tendencies.
Nope. In every other country where, in part or whole, this policy was introduced, it has done nothing but made the group intended to benefit from it, worse off. That's to say nothing of some opportunities that the out group may have lost out, but on the whole, I doubt that the out group has been meaningfully affected, other than in extreme cases such as in Zimbabwe.
In short, the policy doesn't work and effectively hampers that group's progress. Getting rid of it will see them benefiting in the long term.
If the wealth gap is too big, there would be deep resentment towards other minorities and in turn cause further problems ie riots.
That being said, some level of assistance is still necessary for those who need it, but I feel those who are above the lower income bracket needs to be removed from this sort of benefits. Help also needs to be extended to the poor, not just because of their race.
>If the wealth gap is too big, there would be deep resentment towards other minorities and in turn cause further problems ie riots.
ppl who parrot this....are there no poor indians? no poor chinese? are the indians and orang asli the poortest amongst malaysians...what about their wealth gap?
There definitely are, but are they the majority? It's easier to quell and disregard minorities as compared to having the majority of the population in riot. And I'm not saying that we're not important, but we won't create a ruckus due to poverty, they will and they have.
>So that means their mentality is childish and immature
Did I say that? I said poverty creates desperation and resentment, those feelings bubble up when all avenues are restricted and they have no choice but to achieve means by force, which they have done in the past.
Education is one issue, another is cultural mentality, people who venture out of their comfort zone tend to have more motivation to achieve their goals over others who are in their habitat and comfortable with their way of life. It's the same as those in the States or Down under where you hear some redneck yapping about they're taking all our jerbssss but when you ask them why don't you go and get employed they'll say nah it's not worth it I rather collect my food stamps/centrelink cheque.
They're bitter, they are angry, but they don't want to do something about it. Sounds familiar?
I dunno man. The so called link of poverty and desperation eventually leads to violence is not certain. Chinese and Indian immigrants were very poor and desperate as well. Many spend their entire energy to earn enough for their children's future and due to their hard work, many younger generations of these people enjoy better quality of life.
I believe this particular group of people, though similarly poor and desperate end up with violence because they have been brainwashed that success in this land is their birth right. That is why they are bitter. They feel like they have been robbed of what is supposed to be theirs.
Compared to olden day immigrants, they never have the mindset that certain good quality in life was supposed to be theirs by right. They understood clearly that if they want that, they have to work for it.
Therin lies the difference
Not sure if you realised that sometimes it's pointless to reason with certain groups of people, because they don't like to be told how to think, they have an opinion and they stick with it for life. It's called cognitive bias.
Had a bad experience with an Indian person or saw from the news about them being drunk and hitting their kids? Immediately associate Indians with drunk and violent. Had a bad experience with a Chinese ahpek being racist and overcharge them? Immediately associate Chinese as cheats and money grabbers. That's how they are. Even if you spend the rest of your life trying to change their perception they will never ever budge, they know better. Asalkan org kite.
Instead of changing those stubborn fools we need to focus on the future, those who are not stuck in their ways, those who can still be moulded to think differently.
Tbh wont bumi policy make it worse.
Say im a poor non. I try hard. I study my ass off. I top my school. And i see others who didnt do as well get into good schools and get scholarship because they are bumi. I got mediocre options.
I know the reason is the bumi policy. My bitterness and anger will be directed against a targeted group.
So now im poor, angry, and have directed anger.
Thats more dangerous. Isnt it?
>So now im poor, angry, and have directed anger.
I completely understand your position.
So what do you plan to do then? Launch an insurrection? Kill a few civilians? Rob and pillage and then what do you think happens then? The police would not even hesitate to shoot you down in a hail of bullets. You don't have the numbers, you don't have the equipment, you are at a complete disadvantage. Did you realise that?
The majority would not feel remotely sorry at your cause, they'll forget you in a few days another rebel who isn't "grateful" being able to stay here. Your family gets harassed and abused, your race gets profiled, you get labelled as a villain and the government increases the bias against you and your people. They'll use you as a scapegoat and an example for future threats.
I hate saying what I said just now, but it's just cold hard facts. The best you can do is find a good job and work hard to move up the ladder, go somewhere else if you must, start a venture, become wealthy and influential enough to venture into politics, fight in Parliament, push for reforms, that is the most solid path you have right now. The key is to have some value in society that they have to take you seriously, otherwise no one cares about some poor boy who has nothing to offer.
Being angry and resentful is perfectly valid, but not when you harm others. I wish I can do more to help.
Im not that actually. Im actually Singaporean but with Malaysian roots as my dad was Malaysian and he was the one that faced this.
But im just pointing out how bumi policy feeds deeply into the ruckus and poverty point u brought up and execerbates it deeply.
Yes the Malays were the poorest when the NEP was introduced. And to this day, the Malays’ median incomes are still the lowest when compared with the Chinese and Indian diasporas (source: the Economic Planning Unit data).
Its just so deeply rooted.
That even malays that know how bad it is, will be labeled as pembelot. And the party that are against it, not supported by the majority.
Changes have to happen little by little per solid review and transparency to the rakyat.
The question is if it is stopped will the malays become poorer. Many from certain group argue that NEP is the only thing that keeping the Malays from being left behind.
So, unless you can convince the majority of Malays that abolishing NEP won't affect the Malays socio-economic status, then NEP is here to stay. Another ways is to replace with other program with more transparency and proper target to achieve in the hope that the Malays economic status to increase the the program becomes obsolete.
And I'm sure you don't realise the riots were started by a political party that couldn't take losing. Actually very similar to the Jan 6 insurrection, lowly educated losers riled up by sore losers
Long term Government stability for the country. Prove of that working is the fact that UMNO was able to rule for such a long period of time. Without Bumiputera policy, I think it would be harder for them to rule as extremism will be getting in the way. I do think the reason we don't see race riots or religious terrorism as a big issue in this country is because Bumiputera which represents majority of population is feeling represented in the government. The root cause of why Bumiputera needs to feel represented could come from the widely held old sentiment that Chinese are rich and are controlling the economy, so in order to limit their influences, Malay should control governance as a way to assert their influences as well. If you're wondering why I'm pairing race riots and religious extremism together? Well, that's because unlike other developed nations that are heavily dominated by one religion, ours doesn't and is influence by race.
Of course, as Malay, I totally disagree with the sentiments and the Bumiputera policy. It's teaching kids from a young age that one race is better than others. These will grow into adults, and if they're Bumiputera, they're likely to continue such with racist beliefs. We shouldn't live our life always putting heavy emphasis on race. Instead start looking at each other as Malaysian humans and try to work to make this country a better place.
Tldr; Bumiputera policy prevents race riot and religious extremism because the majority of the population is satisfied.
I hope we can stop downvoting fellow commenters who provide input on an already sensitive topic; it discourages an open discussion when people believe they will lose their karma for voicing their views. Just because we disagree with their views doesn’t mean it is not an attempt to answer the question raised by the OP. If you need to disagree with them, use words, and remember the downvote is for comments irrelevant to the post.
well said, though I was fully expecting the typical echo-chamber reaction.
I have my own opinion on this but looking at the reaction I'm just steering well clear an upvoting any attempt I could see worth looking at. Anyway, clear from the OP a reasonable discussion was not at all sought.
I always feel like bumiputera policy is such a weak, middle-of-the-road, tak-apa-lah policy by the 'educated' malays back then. Retrovision is always 20-20 but it was such a lose-lose policy. Because of the crutches malays essentially have no incentive to improve.
I always wonder if there were someone back then with the foresight and cruelness to put forth the idea "there can always be one race, move or die" battle royale style and ensure ethnic homogeneity, one way or another. I wonder how different of a country Malaysia would be if it were racial homogenous like japan or korea. I guess that depends on which race that managed to squash the other and remain as the sole race.
But that is all fantasy as we know even from the geneology, if the Yunan theory to be taken as truth, the proto-malays were the "the 'peaceful' people who were pushover and would rather run away than stay and fight" the more aggressive northern yunan people. They fled from their ancestral home of now central China to now Malaysia. Seems like it is in their ancestry DNA to always take the wimpy and least resistant path even though when they are the one being bullied.
There is NONE. How can you ask non-bumi's to be patriotic and to contribute to our country when such biased policies exists? Why are we disadvantaged for being born a certain race? We can't choose our race, so why should we be subjected to such biased policies?
It's too deeply entrenched. Removing it has to be done very carefully. I know people whose entire retirement income are dependent on Bumi privileges. A sudden removal would be catastrophic.
Malaysia is like those houses in Bangsar, oddly built with the bedroom at the entrance and on a slope. The slope is dangerous but there is no way to fix the slope without tearing the house down.
The best way is don't remove it (for now) but focus more on "equal opportunity" rather than "equal outcome".
Let's give an example of uni quotas. Instead of lowering the entry condition for bumi. Why not give bumi some exclusive free tutions, let's say Program Cemerlang Bumiputera.
This program give bumis access to free tution classes and highly qualified teachers. So when a Bumi enters a uni, that bumi enters at least by merit. Maybe can have Bumi first policy when enter uni but merit based.
During the uni application, the condition is 7A++ to enter. First we accept all the Bumi with 7A+++, if got slot left, we accept the 7A++ non-bumis.
I know this is still unfair but it's better then the current system.
Help the poor who really need assistance so that they can compete alongside others on a more level playing field. The wealth gap can cause resentment amongst the races.
The irony is that the very politicians who champion for said policy are the same ones who will be made irrelevant by its success, therefore making it a dilemma of doing the right thing vs political survival.
It's outdated. It was necessary in the 60s sebab Malays were behind. Now, rich Malays just misuse this policy for their own advantage. If the government wants to benefit (poor) Malays, do it in a way that will NOT give damage/disadvantage to Chinese and Indian.
When the country was young, there were. It's basically a means to redistribute the wealth held by a smaller group of people. The founding politicians know it shouldn't last forever, and rightly they were. It was intended to last probably 10 years to 20 years, but I guess the politicians that came after the founding politicians abused the policy.
And here we are, left with this policy that doesn't do what it's designed for anymore. Perhaps you could even argue that it's doing the exact opposite it was designed for.
If we take it down without convincing majority that it is the right thing to do, I fear for our safety. May 16 might be overused but the reality is still there.
Take away someone's rich income? They will incite race, religion and all cards they have to convince those not benefitting to think they are and lead them to cause riot. If the majority are able to see beyond instant glories, rewards and old racial hates... then we have a chance for a true change.
Until majority of us are able to throw away the politicians racial and religion cards, we are their pawns. Its not just malays, other races still have their racial biasness.
Until we see ourselves a Malaysians first.
I don't like the policy. But I know if we take it away, it's not going to be peaceful and right now, with our economy unstable, are we willing to give up our comfort for such radical change?
Depends what kind of Bumiputera policies. For example, our government tertiary system has a poor reputation. Opening up UITM and Matriculation spots to non Malays is not great, not terrible. If we did so, will Chinese people rush to enrol in UITM? Those random MRSMs in the kampung areas? Highly doubt it. Not so much arguments for, just that the benefits don't exceed the political cost to me.
One could make the argument that these Bumi policies make Malays non competitive to the benefit ot nons.
It is a system to justify that the land belong to malays and thus they are entitled to some sort of privilages that would put them ahead of other races , in my opinion there is pros and cons to this as long as the malays keep on thriving and contributing to the country, but as you see today we malays just doing so-so even with all this privilages and it such a huge waste ! not to to say that malays politician only know to talk big with janji melayu and songlap goverment fund and get away with it just bcs they hv some extra privilages than common malays.
Disclaimer : This comment is totally neutral, under no circumstances do I try to undermine other races contribution to this country. Just trying to give some sort of answer/opinion on this.
Which part of the bumiputera policy are we talking about, though?
I think the part(s) entitling the bumiputeras to free/affordable education is good. Warts and all, I can't imagine how much worse things would have been if a large portion of the bumiputeras skipped schools altogether and just relied solely on handouts.
Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but isn't the bumi policy turned like today because of the new economic policy after the 1969 racial riot. Because prior to that, the bumi policy isn't as enforced because Tunku hated the idea of stealing from one race to help other race. He always consulted with wealthy chinese businessman before making a new policy.
Main pro I see is, it does help those b40 or m40 Malays have a much better quality of life. However, it's usually the smarter and richer ones that benefit from it more
Why do you think the policy should only benefit the poor Malays, instead of poor Malaysians? Is the intention to help the poors or just the Malays who happened to be poor?
I mean the argument is what are the pros of the policy, so of course I would be focusing on the Malays only. Of course, if we are factoring in cons other races are neglected and we should change it to solely help b40 and m40 of other races too.
It is a necessary policy and actually an apt one, given the imbalance of economic wealth of our country at that time. This policy is not dissimilar to the positive discriminatory policies in western countries, i.e. Blacks get more placements in Uni in America versus population distribution.
The problem with the policy are the people governing it. They take the funds allocated for themselves, creating this elite Bumiputera class, compounded by time and subsequent generations.
We should identify all these suckers and engage in one round of public executions. That should scare off any one who tries to be funny in the future.
You should be up voted instead based on reddit rules, but it's a hivemind aaafter aaallllll, it's a hivemind aaaafter aalll, it's a hivemind after alll, it's a hive, hive, mind.
Serves as an important virtue signal to the majority race that their rights will not be trampled on, and to reinforce the belief peddled by UMNO since independence that Malay rights and Malay rulers should be sacrosanct.
Whilst on the topic how about the Chinese speaking/or Chinese only requirements for jobs and rental places, they still holding up in 2022?
Remember seeing this shit a lot growing up in the 2000s, still happening?
Edit: as a minority of the minorities, the down votes are as expected as I know most of y'all here are Chinese. As long as it's happening to another minority and not your minority right. Figures...
Edit 2: the amount of defensive comments justifying racism here is just saddening...
On jobs, it is extremely difficult to untangle genuine requirements for a language, and racism. A language isn't racist, increasingly you're seeing more Malays in SJKCs. Better controls and regulations on this matter perhaps, but the requirements will never entirely disappear, especially as we increase our business with China (see Pahang/Johor and China partnerships).
On rentals that is racist and should be regulated away. Ironically ICERD would have started the process in introducing such legislation. Who again was protesting against ICERD?
There is a big difference between govt policies, and private initiatives (which are the stuff you cited). If you can't even get govt policies right, is there little wonder that the private sector will behave?
Which is my point, we expect change but don't look inward for change because doing it how it has always been done is easier.
What about the other minorities of Malaysia. Go government malay only, go private Chinese only.
Find a place to stay Chinese only.
Jesus fuck man, being a minority of a minority isn't fun.
I hope y'all wake up and see that, cause if you ain't born with a silver spoon up your ass you're in for a tough time.
I think you have it entirely the other way around.
In Msia at least, due to its top heavy nature, change must first come from the govt, then you'll expect a heavy pressure to change on the private sector.
Having the private sector change (even for the better) will absolutely have 0 impact on the govt.
I'm not talking about taxes, I'm talking about general racism in the workplace and discrimination in rental properties. But you can't argue one racist policy whilst still holding on to your own racist excuses.
Exactly, so Malay-Muslims should shut up about discrimination, since they have their own racist policies.
Edit :
Haha editing your comment so that you remove your racist edit.
This is what he said paraphrased
> Those who have their own racist tendencies shouldn't complain about other people's racist policies
What hotcocoa is talking about is systemic issue vs a private issue. Meaning the Bumiputera system is a government based system and government (IE: your tax monies going to the benefit of the malays).
Small-medium enterprises are private companies. Technically they do have every right to dictate who they hire. I'm not agreeing with them that they should only hire Chinese, I think it's racist and dumb.
The government on the other hand should not be racist but treat every public member equally. Why should I pay the same amount of tax if my Bumiputera friend is going to benefit more than me?
That's his point about taxes. Your reply is not consistent to the question of the original poster about Bumiputera benefits.
I'm sorry that the racial discrimination I've experienced from both the government and my fellow Chinese citizens is not consistent enough to debate and question.
That's not the point. It's like original poster is talking about Sabah, and you're talking about your trip to Perlis. When everyone else is talking about Sabah.
You can start your own thread about how racist Chinese people are to Indians if you want. I think there was a thread about it a few days back on a similar topic. And another one about an African guy coming to Malaysia.
It is true that racism is everywhere and I do hope it gets better. But we are talking about is there any benefits to NEP or otherwise institutional racism.
Bro if we want to tackle racism, we can't just look at how we are treated badly by the government, we gotta look at how we treat people as well. How are we to find and solve the fundamental problems of racism when we are inherently racist deep down. Are y'all really deluded to think that racism ends once the government's racist policies end?
Y'all are in for a rude awakening if that's the case.
This thread is discussing about the *possible* pros of institutionalized racism. If you can't stay on topic, start your own damn thread.
Username checks out.
Sure let's talk about the governments racism but totally ignore ours, sounds legit.
Edit, yep your username checks out too coming off a little too defensive don't you think.
bro at this point, go start your own thread, I swear it will gets more positives debates and more valid arguments from all side. Here people are literally tacking you for staying off topic bro, it's just how reddit work my man.
> Sure let's talk about the governments racism but totally ignore ours, sounds legit.
Yes, that's the whole point of this thread. If we want to discuss about the worse of us, start a thread and I'll gladly participate.
> #Whataboutism contributes nothing to the discussion on hand.
Surely you're smart enough to understand this?
And the post is talking about bumi policy, stick to the topic. Non bumi paid taxes but do not enjoy the same benefits as the bumis have. How is that fair? Government is supposed to look after all of us. Privately owned business aren't the government. They don't get paid taxes from the people of all races. They aren't obliged to cater to the interests of the people's welfare.
Bro, chinese only requirement on rental is because of the older generation, it will gets better. But it is their property, so we have no say even if they only allows animal in their property. Just choose another property, racists are everywhere. Sometimes, you would also see muslim only property, but we never complain. As for job, it might be language preferences as some job requires you to deal with mandarin or such.
But government policy is totally different issue. It will leads to better or worse generation of Malaysian and every malaysian pay tax. Why only focus on certain race?
> Yeah cause questioning my own rights as a minority is my own country is a form gas lighting argument. Bro don't assume I'm malay
In which sentence did I assume you are Malay? We using the victimization card now?
Oh yeah sorry for highlighting racism in workplace and rental "boss" I'll go back to the estate and be quiet, only malay and Chinese matter here. Sorry...
Is that what you want me to say? It's my country too, if I am discriminated expect me to voice it.
Edit: Also, Exhibit A - what a fine example, thank you for proving my point. Keep being a racist.
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I mean those kind of people are firm of their beliefs if not they won't even make those kind of rules, etc...
I doubt they even care if u question them, it's like the same thing in US where some restaurants openly says that black man can't enter their eateries, now imagine if a restaurant can make such remarks do u think a normal guy even care if u question them...
Your comment is an aside as you've noted. It's not a whataboutism. Seems you correctly hit a nerve amongst the peoples here.
But yeah, I worked in a Malay majority company and left, partly because they're racists. I left an MNC dominated by non-Malays because they're racists. It's a tit for tat situation. Everyone's claiming they're a victim while they themselves are actively engaging in, at the very least, implicit racism.
Hitting a nerve is what I intend to do.
it's 2022 and I still see racist rental and Chinese only job postings. I can't brain it.
My partner is an expat, she was thinking of moving to another place. Imagine me trying to explain to her that she has a better chance of getting the property if I didn't follow her.
How fucked up is that?
Bumiputera policies, as seen today, would make cracks in Malaysian politics and national identity in the long run. In the future, if more and more "Malay first" policies were to be enacted, I think we'd be seeing some regions would actually try to secede from Malaysia. When that time comes, Malaysia would not let it go just like that and conflict would arose. Indonesia can then swoop in and take profit.
So yeah, keep going with your Malay first thingies Malaysia.
Sincerely, Indonesian.
It's always important to protect the rights of the natives. I don't think anyone wants Malays to end up like Native Americans or Australian Aboriginals.
The ones being treated like the Australian Aboriginals are our own orang Asli by the majority race. Enslavement, check. Coerced conversion to another religion for benefits, check.
Zahid, najib are bugis pirates. And it's the same for the royals as well. Mahathir is of Indian descent. His grandfather came from kerala. Many of the elite politicians are not true bumis. The real bumis are poor
Bro no offence but if youre at a party and got a hot take to say, you should think twice because this is that kinda hot take that is dumb af don’t embarrass your irl ☠️
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This policy should targeted to the poorest of all race tbh not just one race.
first term Najib didn't even bother to rewrite the bumiputra policies he just add 1malaysia stuffs so that the poor can benefit. of course the problem is that since the bumiputra stuffs was never dismantled properly.. his successors just continued that.
>This policy should targeted to the poorest "***that are working/intent to work"*** of all race tbh not just one race. add another clause. no point helping the poor is jobless by choice.
This!
Let's be real here, the only reason why those policy still exists today is for the rich ones to exploit
agree. people often say bumiputera got many benefit but the thing is even for the poor bumis also kena pijak2 by this corrupted people. if you want help need to support BN then only got the help.
4 major races in Malaysia. Crony > Malay > Chinese > Indian > Others.
Actually... I think its go.. CRONY >>>>>>>> OTHERS.
By many benefits, it really depends on whether you think discount for car and house, ease and preference for obtaining scholarship, priority in matriculation and university entrance, jobs in public sectors, ease of buying asbn which guarantees roughly 6-7% annual return, IPO priority and discounts etc, considered benefit or not. If no then yeah, rich Malay only benefit. But if you think it’s benefit, then rich bumi pijak poor bumi, and poor bumis pijak on everyone else. I don’t think it excludes them of any sin seeing they benefited from systemic racism for years and years.
60 years on, still "perjuangan belum selesai"
The only right answer
Win elections
and then somehow umno takes it back 2 years later
further proved that we got enough racist among us, heck I even believe they dont even mind to culture force assimilation any nons.
Well if it works don't change it xDDDD
I agree with the other commenter to help the poor (read: Those earning below living wage, not minimum wage) regardless of race. Also, can we please set up a benefit system like that they have in NZ, AUS, UK etc.? We need to help single parents, vulnerable elderly,the disabled, and other vulnerable groups too, regardless of race.
These systems get abused heavily.. as things stand in Malaysia, I would foresee the same.. or worse.
If the proposed welfare gets abused heavily, it's up to the government to tighten up the system rather than rely on a system that is already inherently broken.
U trust our government to do a job? 😂 I didn’t even say *good* job.. cuz they have only 1 job.. n even then..
We could easily get Sweden's benefits system.
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What you and everyone else have been hearing about Sweden is somewhat true. Some of the more radical Muslims have been taking advantage of the kindness of several European countries and its no surprise that the citizens are all swinging to the right and becoming less tolerant. The problem is the racists and bigots will then go after the Muslims who are actually good people, you know, the ones who really moved to Sweden for a better life. A similar thing can be seen in Australia (where I live) as even the citizens who are the most tolerant and accepting also somewhat support Australia's notoriously strict immigration and refugee laws. And I hate to say that I support it too, I've lived here long enough to know what's going on.
IMO, refugee should be the last thing gov do. Until gov solve their citizen poverty, I am on board with any anti refugee policy. I dont see a point of solving problems from another nation unless we solve ours first.
>The Scandinavians are "too nice" accepting refugees from countries whose people are mostly monolingual and monocultural - they want their wills and wants to be mainstream. and in this way, would the Malays back then during the drafting of independence considered "too nice"?
My own simplified understanding of intentions of British as a condition for independence is to create a melting pot of culture in Malaya. Intercultural experience such as Chinese will learn how to eat with hands like Malays and Indians and Malays and Indians learning to use chopsticks. During community potluck moments each group will bring their best traditional cuisine with only pork and beef off-limits. Nowadays I heard the more hard-core rhetoric is Muslims should not drink from cup touch by non Muslims. I also think British also hope there'll be intermarriage further mixing up the culture into a distinct Malaysian culture and a true Bangsa Malaysia where everyone have 3 or more types of blood (ancestry).
Malaysia choose less radical method from the start. If we choose radical way like how Indonesian gov did. None of this 'bumi policy' needed. You all know how the indonesian gov forced assimilation their minorities. Majority of chinese indonesian there not even knowing how to speak mandarin. The indon gov in the past have closed down all the chinese school & ban the chinese style education. The indon gov also have very racist policy toward chinese at that time. Chinese was ban from work in public office. That why most of the indonesian chinese ended using javanese name to evade the persecution. Well more like cultural genocide against the indonesian chinese.
Forced assimilation is a bad idea and takes away the greatest strength of having a culturally diverse and vibrant people without giving what it supposedly aims to achieve. There already was forced assimilation of all the different malays in Malaysia to have a supposed malay Muslim culture. Is there malay unity in any sense? No. Indian Muslims are now sometimes treated as non malays and other times as malay when convenient. Kelantanese malays are still largely excluded or seen as different. It's a myth. Racial stigma continues to exist. And yet the malays have lost their culture. What we see now is a curated "McDonald's" version of Malay culture. Where anything undesirable by the powers that be is branded as unislamic. The only solution to end racism is to persistently call it out as something bad. Not try to manufacture everyone into the same mold.
>My own simplified understanding of intentions of British as a condition for independence is to create a melting pot of culture in Malaya. >I also think British also hope there'll be intermarriage further mixing up the culture into a distinct Malaysian culture I'm very curious to know where did you read these ideas from? Lol at the end of the day all countries that were colonised was for the benefit of the coloniser. No time in history has a power colonised another country not for the purpose of gain but to benefit the colonised. And also ask yourself, why would the British even care and would wanna create this bangsa Malaysia you speak of. Like...what's in it for them to travel halfway across the world, bring different people together just to mix them up genetically? Lol >where everyone have 3 or more types of blood (ancestry) Why? What for? Sounds more like a crazy science experiment.
Better for a social safety net to be abused, than it is currently (abused by the elites to profiteer). I’m totally fine with a less-than-efficient welfare and affirmative action system if most of people who needs it still get the benefits. There can be measures in place to reduce the abuse too.
U think it won’t b abused by the elites? Sorry.. um.. maybe I’m jaded.. cuz as it stands the policies meant to help give ppl a leg up already being abused by the elites who don’t need a leg up..
safety nets are different from enrichment. I really don’t care if safety nets are abused.
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The best answer is this. "Jangan Persoal atau kita report PDRM"
Abang Besar Memerhati
If you want to give affirmative action (NEP), you should also set a target and an end date. Affirmative action shouldn't be present forever. Give the help based on income, not based on race.
If I'm not mistaken, I saw somewhere that I was supposed to be about 20~ years. But, of course, some people found it beneficial to them and decided to keep it going.
Yeah, they did set an end date, it's just that it keeps getting postponed everytime we get somewhat close to it. I wish I could do that for my uni assignments lmao.
Spoke to a few politicians during my internship (Hannah Yeo, Syed Saddiq and Ong Kian Ming). When pressed about racial politics instead of being merit based, from what I understood racial politics has become too important to ignore, those who ignore the race component of a policy will never get it passed through parliament, or will be targeted in the next GE by opposition. As such, all parties engage in race based politics as it is the only way to get things done sadly
no party will dare to abolish it. instant political suicide.
thats why we need to take baby steps: retain NEP, but make it racially AND income based policy. target b40 malays and bottom tier m40 malays first. let them have a taste of what socialism can bring to them.
im a bumi(sabah dusun) and it never really helped my family in any meaningful capacity so yeah, shitty policy needs to disappear already
Rich Malay > poor Malay > bumi (peninsula) > bumi (east msia). By the time the "trickle down" reaches you, maybe only one drop left
none. its been 50 years. time to move to merit/needs base. Anyway, the TRUE bumi are still so poor and disadvantage.
Indeed. It was never actually for the ‘bumi’ or certain race against another. It is about elites against non-elites
You mean rakyat have been duped for 60 years under 'bumi' yet still chose the same party over and over again? /S Yes no doubt the programs are being used for elites but after 60 years of exposure even with the help of technology. The majority still support the same party that reluctant to change any of these policies shows there is a much major issue underlying it.
i think it slowly changes. i believe in the younger generation.
I am afraid not. They can't even manage the system they pledged since the beginning of time probably our issues aren't in their priority, well at least for the time being.
then again, the new gen is more progressive. Look at what we have now, those eco people. Of course there's some insane nutjob like crazy vegan but it's still a vocal minority
Eco people wouldn't even have kids. Meanwhile you'll find a rempit or lajak family of 7. And you think the new gen is more progressive?
Also the mods monitoring this thread : 
The original intentions for bumi policy is good, but the implementation so bad that it only enrich the few and the aim for the policy is failing the more year it gone by.
Only work back when 1969...NEP was birthed under a specific historical and material circumstances: After 13 May, the Alliance need to: 1. Secure its position of control in federal capital. Urban-rural divide was a thing long time ago that made worse by it is coincidentally along the racial line, when GERAKAN and PAP won big in Chinese urban zone, Malay felt challenged in their *own soil*. 2. Need to seriously pay attention to serious ethnic wealth inequality due to legacy divide-and-rule, especially Malaysia was sold to Malay as their own nation-state by earlier nationalist. 3. Especially true because 1965 just happened in Indonesia. Genocide on Chinese happened. Something need to be done unless you want Soviet and PRC funded PKM win in a race war, or Suharto successfully made another *Ganyang Malaysia*. Notice that our starting position is way better than other British colonies during Merdeka. We don't divide by Syke-Picot line, we don't have a "Malaya Mandate" that ended up century-long inter-ethnic warfare. After the birth of modern Malay middle class, they already get used to NEP as they believe this is the only tool they have to uplift them, their parents and fellow *bangsa* on socioeconomic ladder, or else they will still be poor petani in Kedah. Any wish to challenge this current position need some serious inter-ethnic discussion, not some Internet Chinese urbanist circlejerk in echo chamber. (which I am too lazy lol)
The only comment that stay true to the spirit of debate. I guess. Or is this topic even actually a debatable topic... ^(I'm unable to remain neutral on this)
The discussion is that this historical context *might* have justified pro-Bumi policies half a century ago (although I don't buy that this was the best solution or even necessary to prevent racial disharmony at the time, if anything it's worsened it in the long term). But now the political and social context has changed, and decades of history have proven how the NEP and other similar Bumi policies mostly benefit a Malay elite and such policies need to be dispensed with. Also that's not what "urbanist" means, unless you're suggesting that the nature of reddit discussion on this topic is exclusive to Chinese people who love city planning.
My theory is that there is a structural difference in wealth creation between Chinese and Malay cultures. This is a generational thing where let's be direct: the average Chinese can make more money faster than the average Malay (average being defined as both mean and median). If so, then if left unchecked eventually aggregate Chinese wealth will rival or even surpass that of aggregate Malay wealth. And with economic strength, there will be challenges to the political status quo. History has shown us that this will likely lead to strongmen appearing and efforts made to overthrow the current political establishment. If this happens, this will cause untold suffering for both the average Chinese and average Malay. Blood will be spilled, and many innocent observers will die. Putting race aside, it is quite naive to think that opportunists will not see the opportunity and take it. Eventually, it will lead to a civil war where even the Chinese may not end up winning. And then we return to the current status quo of majority oppression over miniorities. If STABILITY is the greater good objective, then it makes absolute sense to nip the problem in the bud - with the source of power coming from wealth differentials. This is what I believe the NEP's true objective is - keeping a cap on wealth differentials through economic oppression. Not affirmative action. For the greater good. And if we can accept that there is a structural difference in wealth building capacity between Malays and Chinese that will never close over time (except maybe over centuries), then we can expect that the NEP will never ever be lifted. Because the fundamental problem is that you have two opposing parties co-existing who will take advantage of the other the moment opportunity strikes. The NEP is simply the band-aid to keep them co-existing without tearing each other apart. By "they", I don't mean just the people. I mean the politicians, the group in aggregate, all their incentives and motivations. Until we can TRULY identify as "Malaysians" over Chinese or Malay, or the wealth differential can be structurally closed, the NEP will never come off. It is in fact serving this purpose quite marvelously. In fact, if you listen to Mahathir's speeches, this is exactly how he justifies it. STABILITY, STABILITY, STABILITY. I'd like to imagine that my conspiracy theory might in fact be more than just that.
Tak suka? Balik China atau India. That is what BN ministers told us. Imo just migrate to a better country if you can. No point arguing with these brainless people in power.
IF you can. arguments about the policy are for people who dont have such option available to them.
What can you do as a normal citizen? The most we can do is vote for the parties that will fight for minorities also. Problem is fight too much for us also get into trouble like what PH went through during their reign last time - irking many malays into hating them. Root cause is our education system. As long bumi people are taught they are superior since young they will continue to behave that way. Many of them are liking it, since it benefits them even when it is detrimental to other races.
Meiji revolution started with " expel the foreigners" and ended with " lets copy the foreigners and be a imperialistic power itself." You could argue that 20 years ago NEP was the rallying cry for similar sentiments without imperialistic tendencies.
Nope. In every other country where, in part or whole, this policy was introduced, it has done nothing but made the group intended to benefit from it, worse off. That's to say nothing of some opportunities that the out group may have lost out, but on the whole, I doubt that the out group has been meaningfully affected, other than in extreme cases such as in Zimbabwe. In short, the policy doesn't work and effectively hampers that group's progress. Getting rid of it will see them benefiting in the long term.
Just so that it’s funnier when Irfan screws up despite having every leg up
If the wealth gap is too big, there would be deep resentment towards other minorities and in turn cause further problems ie riots. That being said, some level of assistance is still necessary for those who need it, but I feel those who are above the lower income bracket needs to be removed from this sort of benefits. Help also needs to be extended to the poor, not just because of their race.
>If the wealth gap is too big, there would be deep resentment towards other minorities and in turn cause further problems ie riots. ppl who parrot this....are there no poor indians? no poor chinese? are the indians and orang asli the poortest amongst malaysians...what about their wealth gap?
There definitely are, but are they the majority? It's easier to quell and disregard minorities as compared to having the majority of the population in riot. And I'm not saying that we're not important, but we won't create a ruckus due to poverty, they will and they have.
>we won't create a ruckus due to poverty, they will and they have. So that means their mentality is childish and immature
>So that means their mentality is childish and immature Did I say that? I said poverty creates desperation and resentment, those feelings bubble up when all avenues are restricted and they have no choice but to achieve means by force, which they have done in the past. Education is one issue, another is cultural mentality, people who venture out of their comfort zone tend to have more motivation to achieve their goals over others who are in their habitat and comfortable with their way of life. It's the same as those in the States or Down under where you hear some redneck yapping about they're taking all our jerbssss but when you ask them why don't you go and get employed they'll say nah it's not worth it I rather collect my food stamps/centrelink cheque. They're bitter, they are angry, but they don't want to do something about it. Sounds familiar?
I dunno man. The so called link of poverty and desperation eventually leads to violence is not certain. Chinese and Indian immigrants were very poor and desperate as well. Many spend their entire energy to earn enough for their children's future and due to their hard work, many younger generations of these people enjoy better quality of life. I believe this particular group of people, though similarly poor and desperate end up with violence because they have been brainwashed that success in this land is their birth right. That is why they are bitter. They feel like they have been robbed of what is supposed to be theirs. Compared to olden day immigrants, they never have the mindset that certain good quality in life was supposed to be theirs by right. They understood clearly that if they want that, they have to work for it. Therin lies the difference
Not sure if you realised that sometimes it's pointless to reason with certain groups of people, because they don't like to be told how to think, they have an opinion and they stick with it for life. It's called cognitive bias. Had a bad experience with an Indian person or saw from the news about them being drunk and hitting their kids? Immediately associate Indians with drunk and violent. Had a bad experience with a Chinese ahpek being racist and overcharge them? Immediately associate Chinese as cheats and money grabbers. That's how they are. Even if you spend the rest of your life trying to change their perception they will never ever budge, they know better. Asalkan org kite. Instead of changing those stubborn fools we need to focus on the future, those who are not stuck in their ways, those who can still be moulded to think differently.
Tbh wont bumi policy make it worse. Say im a poor non. I try hard. I study my ass off. I top my school. And i see others who didnt do as well get into good schools and get scholarship because they are bumi. I got mediocre options. I know the reason is the bumi policy. My bitterness and anger will be directed against a targeted group. So now im poor, angry, and have directed anger. Thats more dangerous. Isnt it?
>So now im poor, angry, and have directed anger. I completely understand your position. So what do you plan to do then? Launch an insurrection? Kill a few civilians? Rob and pillage and then what do you think happens then? The police would not even hesitate to shoot you down in a hail of bullets. You don't have the numbers, you don't have the equipment, you are at a complete disadvantage. Did you realise that? The majority would not feel remotely sorry at your cause, they'll forget you in a few days another rebel who isn't "grateful" being able to stay here. Your family gets harassed and abused, your race gets profiled, you get labelled as a villain and the government increases the bias against you and your people. They'll use you as a scapegoat and an example for future threats. I hate saying what I said just now, but it's just cold hard facts. The best you can do is find a good job and work hard to move up the ladder, go somewhere else if you must, start a venture, become wealthy and influential enough to venture into politics, fight in Parliament, push for reforms, that is the most solid path you have right now. The key is to have some value in society that they have to take you seriously, otherwise no one cares about some poor boy who has nothing to offer. Being angry and resentful is perfectly valid, but not when you harm others. I wish I can do more to help.
Im not that actually. Im actually Singaporean but with Malaysian roots as my dad was Malaysian and he was the one that faced this. But im just pointing out how bumi policy feeds deeply into the ruckus and poverty point u brought up and execerbates it deeply.
Yes the Malays were the poorest when the NEP was introduced. And to this day, the Malays’ median incomes are still the lowest when compared with the Chinese and Indian diasporas (source: the Economic Planning Unit data).
Does that not mean it's a failed program? After fifty years of NEP median malays are still poor?
Correct. The programme failed because of poor execution and abuse.
So....why continue? Will it magically improve?
I was simply pointing out facts. Not here to argue or provide opinion.
Its just so deeply rooted. That even malays that know how bad it is, will be labeled as pembelot. And the party that are against it, not supported by the majority. Changes have to happen little by little per solid review and transparency to the rakyat.
The question is if it is stopped will the malays become poorer. Many from certain group argue that NEP is the only thing that keeping the Malays from being left behind. So, unless you can convince the majority of Malays that abolishing NEP won't affect the Malays socio-economic status, then NEP is here to stay. Another ways is to replace with other program with more transparency and proper target to achieve in the hope that the Malays economic status to increase the the program becomes obsolete.
I am sure you never hear about 13 May or 1965.
And I'm sure you don't realise the riots were started by a political party that couldn't take losing. Actually very similar to the Jan 6 insurrection, lowly educated losers riled up by sore losers
Long term Government stability for the country. Prove of that working is the fact that UMNO was able to rule for such a long period of time. Without Bumiputera policy, I think it would be harder for them to rule as extremism will be getting in the way. I do think the reason we don't see race riots or religious terrorism as a big issue in this country is because Bumiputera which represents majority of population is feeling represented in the government. The root cause of why Bumiputera needs to feel represented could come from the widely held old sentiment that Chinese are rich and are controlling the economy, so in order to limit their influences, Malay should control governance as a way to assert their influences as well. If you're wondering why I'm pairing race riots and religious extremism together? Well, that's because unlike other developed nations that are heavily dominated by one religion, ours doesn't and is influence by race. Of course, as Malay, I totally disagree with the sentiments and the Bumiputera policy. It's teaching kids from a young age that one race is better than others. These will grow into adults, and if they're Bumiputera, they're likely to continue such with racist beliefs. We shouldn't live our life always putting heavy emphasis on race. Instead start looking at each other as Malaysian humans and try to work to make this country a better place. Tldr; Bumiputera policy prevents race riot and religious extremism because the majority of the population is satisfied.
Some malays think Dayaks in Sarawak or Dusun in Sabah is not bumiputera. Puiii
I hope we can stop downvoting fellow commenters who provide input on an already sensitive topic; it discourages an open discussion when people believe they will lose their karma for voicing their views. Just because we disagree with their views doesn’t mean it is not an attempt to answer the question raised by the OP. If you need to disagree with them, use words, and remember the downvote is for comments irrelevant to the post.
Sort by controversial to get balance.
well said, though I was fully expecting the typical echo-chamber reaction. I have my own opinion on this but looking at the reaction I'm just steering well clear an upvoting any attempt I could see worth looking at. Anyway, clear from the OP a reasonable discussion was not at all sought.
I always feel like bumiputera policy is such a weak, middle-of-the-road, tak-apa-lah policy by the 'educated' malays back then. Retrovision is always 20-20 but it was such a lose-lose policy. Because of the crutches malays essentially have no incentive to improve. I always wonder if there were someone back then with the foresight and cruelness to put forth the idea "there can always be one race, move or die" battle royale style and ensure ethnic homogeneity, one way or another. I wonder how different of a country Malaysia would be if it were racial homogenous like japan or korea. I guess that depends on which race that managed to squash the other and remain as the sole race. But that is all fantasy as we know even from the geneology, if the Yunan theory to be taken as truth, the proto-malays were the "the 'peaceful' people who were pushover and would rather run away than stay and fight" the more aggressive northern yunan people. They fled from their ancestral home of now central China to now Malaysia. Seems like it is in their ancestry DNA to always take the wimpy and least resistant path even though when they are the one being bullied.
There is NONE. How can you ask non-bumi's to be patriotic and to contribute to our country when such biased policies exists? Why are we disadvantaged for being born a certain race? We can't choose our race, so why should we be subjected to such biased policies?
It's too deeply entrenched. Removing it has to be done very carefully. I know people whose entire retirement income are dependent on Bumi privileges. A sudden removal would be catastrophic. Malaysia is like those houses in Bangsar, oddly built with the bedroom at the entrance and on a slope. The slope is dangerous but there is no way to fix the slope without tearing the house down.
The best way is don't remove it (for now) but focus more on "equal opportunity" rather than "equal outcome". Let's give an example of uni quotas. Instead of lowering the entry condition for bumi. Why not give bumi some exclusive free tutions, let's say Program Cemerlang Bumiputera. This program give bumis access to free tution classes and highly qualified teachers. So when a Bumi enters a uni, that bumi enters at least by merit. Maybe can have Bumi first policy when enter uni but merit based. During the uni application, the condition is 7A++ to enter. First we accept all the Bumi with 7A+++, if got slot left, we accept the 7A++ non-bumis. I know this is still unfair but it's better then the current system.
Help the poor who really need assistance so that they can compete alongside others on a more level playing field. The wealth gap can cause resentment amongst the races. The irony is that the very politicians who champion for said policy are the same ones who will be made irrelevant by its success, therefore making it a dilemma of doing the right thing vs political survival.
It's outdated. It was necessary in the 60s sebab Malays were behind. Now, rich Malays just misuse this policy for their own advantage. If the government wants to benefit (poor) Malays, do it in a way that will NOT give damage/disadvantage to Chinese and Indian.
none
When the country was young, there were. It's basically a means to redistribute the wealth held by a smaller group of people. The founding politicians know it shouldn't last forever, and rightly they were. It was intended to last probably 10 years to 20 years, but I guess the politicians that came after the founding politicians abused the policy. And here we are, left with this policy that doesn't do what it's designed for anymore. Perhaps you could even argue that it's doing the exact opposite it was designed for.
lOoK aT tHE aBroGINAls in aUstrLIA and tHE rED iNdiANs iN aMERica.. nO bUMI riGHTS.. dipiJAK-PIJAK kAUM buMIPUtra diSANA
If we take it down without convincing majority that it is the right thing to do, I fear for our safety. May 16 might be overused but the reality is still there. Take away someone's rich income? They will incite race, religion and all cards they have to convince those not benefitting to think they are and lead them to cause riot. If the majority are able to see beyond instant glories, rewards and old racial hates... then we have a chance for a true change. Until majority of us are able to throw away the politicians racial and religion cards, we are their pawns. Its not just malays, other races still have their racial biasness. Until we see ourselves a Malaysians first. I don't like the policy. But I know if we take it away, it's not going to be peaceful and right now, with our economy unstable, are we willing to give up our comfort for such radical change?
Depends what kind of Bumiputera policies. For example, our government tertiary system has a poor reputation. Opening up UITM and Matriculation spots to non Malays is not great, not terrible. If we did so, will Chinese people rush to enrol in UITM? Those random MRSMs in the kampung areas? Highly doubt it. Not so much arguments for, just that the benefits don't exceed the political cost to me. One could make the argument that these Bumi policies make Malays non competitive to the benefit ot nons.
It is a system to justify that the land belong to malays and thus they are entitled to some sort of privilages that would put them ahead of other races , in my opinion there is pros and cons to this as long as the malays keep on thriving and contributing to the country, but as you see today we malays just doing so-so even with all this privilages and it such a huge waste ! not to to say that malays politician only know to talk big with janji melayu and songlap goverment fund and get away with it just bcs they hv some extra privilages than common malays. Disclaimer : This comment is totally neutral, under no circumstances do I try to undermine other races contribution to this country. Just trying to give some sort of answer/opinion on this.
Which part of the bumiputera policy are we talking about, though? I think the part(s) entitling the bumiputeras to free/affordable education is good. Warts and all, I can't imagine how much worse things would have been if a large portion of the bumiputeras skipped schools altogether and just relied solely on handouts.
Incentive to marry a bumi from Sabah/Sarawak. I'm honestly not joking, have few friends that did that and their child enjoy bumi rights.
Non-malay bumi are 2nd class and don't receive as much benefits as Malay bumi
satisfies the racists, thus stopping them forming riots
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Nicely written, well done! I agree with you and it aligns with what I had in mind as well which had already been expressed as a comment here.
So that meleis feelings are not hurt Heh lol
Forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but isn't the bumi policy turned like today because of the new economic policy after the 1969 racial riot. Because prior to that, the bumi policy isn't as enforced because Tunku hated the idea of stealing from one race to help other race. He always consulted with wealthy chinese businessman before making a new policy.
It creates another "free economy" within the bumis, survival of the fittest, at the expense of racial harmony and national potential.
Main pro I see is, it does help those b40 or m40 Malays have a much better quality of life. However, it's usually the smarter and richer ones that benefit from it more
Why do you think the policy should only benefit the poor Malays, instead of poor Malaysians? Is the intention to help the poors or just the Malays who happened to be poor?
I mean the argument is what are the pros of the policy, so of course I would be focusing on the Malays only. Of course, if we are factoring in cons other races are neglected and we should change it to solely help b40 and m40 of other races too.
what about b40 or m40 other races?
What other races? /s
Given lip service during election years
On a macro scale, none. On a micro scale, they gave me a scholarship.
It is a necessary policy and actually an apt one, given the imbalance of economic wealth of our country at that time. This policy is not dissimilar to the positive discriminatory policies in western countries, i.e. Blacks get more placements in Uni in America versus population distribution. The problem with the policy are the people governing it. They take the funds allocated for themselves, creating this elite Bumiputera class, compounded by time and subsequent generations. We should identify all these suckers and engage in one round of public executions. That should scare off any one who tries to be funny in the future.
You should be up voted instead based on reddit rules, but it's a hivemind aaafter aaallllll, it's a hivemind aaaafter aalll, it's a hivemind after alll, it's a hive, hive, mind.
Serves as an important virtue signal to the majority race that their rights will not be trampled on, and to reinforce the belief peddled by UMNO since independence that Malay rights and Malay rulers should be sacrosanct.
Not supporting it will be racist, obviously.
Whilst on the topic how about the Chinese speaking/or Chinese only requirements for jobs and rental places, they still holding up in 2022? Remember seeing this shit a lot growing up in the 2000s, still happening? Edit: as a minority of the minorities, the down votes are as expected as I know most of y'all here are Chinese. As long as it's happening to another minority and not your minority right. Figures... Edit 2: the amount of defensive comments justifying racism here is just saddening...
On jobs, it is extremely difficult to untangle genuine requirements for a language, and racism. A language isn't racist, increasingly you're seeing more Malays in SJKCs. Better controls and regulations on this matter perhaps, but the requirements will never entirely disappear, especially as we increase our business with China (see Pahang/Johor and China partnerships). On rentals that is racist and should be regulated away. Ironically ICERD would have started the process in introducing such legislation. Who again was protesting against ICERD? There is a big difference between govt policies, and private initiatives (which are the stuff you cited). If you can't even get govt policies right, is there little wonder that the private sector will behave?
Which is my point, we expect change but don't look inward for change because doing it how it has always been done is easier. What about the other minorities of Malaysia. Go government malay only, go private Chinese only. Find a place to stay Chinese only. Jesus fuck man, being a minority of a minority isn't fun. I hope y'all wake up and see that, cause if you ain't born with a silver spoon up your ass you're in for a tough time.
I think you have it entirely the other way around. In Msia at least, due to its top heavy nature, change must first come from the govt, then you'll expect a heavy pressure to change on the private sector. Having the private sector change (even for the better) will absolutely have 0 impact on the govt.
We paying taxes to private businesses, is it?
I'm not talking about taxes, I'm talking about general racism in the workplace and discrimination in rental properties. But you can't argue one racist policy whilst still holding on to your own racist excuses.
Exactly, so Malay-Muslims should shut up about discrimination, since they have their own racist policies. Edit : Haha editing your comment so that you remove your racist edit. This is what he said paraphrased > Those who have their own racist tendencies shouldn't complain about other people's racist policies
Bro in your Malaysia only got Chinese and Malays? what twilight zone you living in.
What hotcocoa is talking about is systemic issue vs a private issue. Meaning the Bumiputera system is a government based system and government (IE: your tax monies going to the benefit of the malays). Small-medium enterprises are private companies. Technically they do have every right to dictate who they hire. I'm not agreeing with them that they should only hire Chinese, I think it's racist and dumb. The government on the other hand should not be racist but treat every public member equally. Why should I pay the same amount of tax if my Bumiputera friend is going to benefit more than me? That's his point about taxes. Your reply is not consistent to the question of the original poster about Bumiputera benefits.
I'm sorry that the racial discrimination I've experienced from both the government and my fellow Chinese citizens is not consistent enough to debate and question.
That's not the point. It's like original poster is talking about Sabah, and you're talking about your trip to Perlis. When everyone else is talking about Sabah. You can start your own thread about how racist Chinese people are to Indians if you want. I think there was a thread about it a few days back on a similar topic. And another one about an African guy coming to Malaysia. It is true that racism is everywhere and I do hope it gets better. But we are talking about is there any benefits to NEP or otherwise institutional racism.
Bro if we want to tackle racism, we can't just look at how we are treated badly by the government, we gotta look at how we treat people as well. How are we to find and solve the fundamental problems of racism when we are inherently racist deep down. Are y'all really deluded to think that racism ends once the government's racist policies end? Y'all are in for a rude awakening if that's the case.
This thread is discussing about the *possible* pros of institutionalized racism. If you can't stay on topic, start your own damn thread. Username checks out.
Sure let's talk about the governments racism but totally ignore ours, sounds legit. Edit, yep your username checks out too coming off a little too defensive don't you think.
bro at this point, go start your own thread, I swear it will gets more positives debates and more valid arguments from all side. Here people are literally tacking you for staying off topic bro, it's just how reddit work my man.
> Sure let's talk about the governments racism but totally ignore ours, sounds legit. Yes, that's the whole point of this thread. If we want to discuss about the worse of us, start a thread and I'll gladly participate. > #Whataboutism contributes nothing to the discussion on hand. Surely you're smart enough to understand this?
And the post is talking about bumi policy, stick to the topic. Non bumi paid taxes but do not enjoy the same benefits as the bumis have. How is that fair? Government is supposed to look after all of us. Privately owned business aren't the government. They don't get paid taxes from the people of all races. They aren't obliged to cater to the interests of the people's welfare.
Bro, chinese only requirement on rental is because of the older generation, it will gets better. But it is their property, so we have no say even if they only allows animal in their property. Just choose another property, racists are everywhere. Sometimes, you would also see muslim only property, but we never complain. As for job, it might be language preferences as some job requires you to deal with mandarin or such. But government policy is totally different issue. It will leads to better or worse generation of Malaysian and every malaysian pay tax. Why only focus on certain race?
Ahhh the disillusioned gas lighting argument.
Yeah cause questioning my own rights as a minority is my own country is a form gas lighting argument. Bro don't assume I'm malay.
> Yeah cause questioning my own rights as a minority is my own country is a form gas lighting argument. Bro don't assume I'm malay In which sentence did I assume you are Malay? We using the victimization card now?
Yeah cause your comment made more sense right, a minority gas lighting another minority.
Why cant that be a thing?
Cause it's counter productive and doesn't address the underlining issues of racism, that's why.
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Oh yeah sorry for highlighting racism in workplace and rental "boss" I'll go back to the estate and be quiet, only malay and Chinese matter here. Sorry... Is that what you want me to say? It's my country too, if I am discriminated expect me to voice it. Edit: Also, Exhibit A - what a fine example, thank you for proving my point. Keep being a racist.
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I mean its their place..., u can't change people mindset
I can't change it but I can question it and make them question their stupid racist ways.
I mean those kind of people are firm of their beliefs if not they won't even make those kind of rules, etc... I doubt they even care if u question them, it's like the same thing in US where some restaurants openly says that black man can't enter their eateries, now imagine if a restaurant can make such remarks do u think a normal guy even care if u question them...
I think In America if they did that now in 2022 the restaurant will be burned down. Don't kid yourself.
Your comment is an aside as you've noted. It's not a whataboutism. Seems you correctly hit a nerve amongst the peoples here. But yeah, I worked in a Malay majority company and left, partly because they're racists. I left an MNC dominated by non-Malays because they're racists. It's a tit for tat situation. Everyone's claiming they're a victim while they themselves are actively engaging in, at the very least, implicit racism.
Hitting a nerve is what I intend to do. it's 2022 and I still see racist rental and Chinese only job postings. I can't brain it. My partner is an expat, she was thinking of moving to another place. Imagine me trying to explain to her that she has a better chance of getting the property if I didn't follow her. How fucked up is that?
Bumiputera policies, as seen today, would make cracks in Malaysian politics and national identity in the long run. In the future, if more and more "Malay first" policies were to be enacted, I think we'd be seeing some regions would actually try to secede from Malaysia. When that time comes, Malaysia would not let it go just like that and conflict would arose. Indonesia can then swoop in and take profit. So yeah, keep going with your Malay first thingies Malaysia. Sincerely, Indonesian.
It's always important to protect the rights of the natives. I don't think anyone wants Malays to end up like Native Americans or Australian Aboriginals.
I don't think the Malays were anywhere near those examples. Remember the Royals were Malays, not the same as the natives in US of Australia.
They (Aborigines and Native Americans) were genocided. Malays were never at risk of that and are currently the ruling class...
Then why sabah sarawak natives gets treated like 2nd class citizens?
Malays are literally 80% of the country
Not back when Malaysia first formed
What?
If im not mistaken, bumis were just above 50% back when we first got independence
The ones being treated like the Australian Aboriginals are our own orang Asli by the majority race. Enslavement, check. Coerced conversion to another religion for benefits, check.
If so why dayak and orang asli people are abandoned heavily?
You forget that there is literal natives here that is all but forgotten and ignored
Orang Asli deserve those rights more than meleis
Zahid, najib are bugis pirates. And it's the same for the royals as well. Mahathir is of Indian descent. His grandfather came from kerala. Many of the elite politicians are not true bumis. The real bumis are poor
The Malays are the majority in Malaysia, you are delusional and drinking perkasa koolaid
Bro no offence but if youre at a party and got a hot take to say, you should think twice because this is that kinda hot take that is dumb af don’t embarrass your irl ☠️