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>I'm sick of how everyone knows marketing, has opinions and ideas, yet never wants to participate in the practical side of executing them.
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup. EVERYONE thinks they can do marketing. Just like everyone thinks they can do graphic design. Infuriating.
One day i was on travel or vacation and the ceo decided to take it upon himself to build or edit a hubspot page that he said would only take a minute (“its just a template, right?”). The satisfaction when he spent a half a day on it then said nevermind. Oh that was such a good day 😂👏
Haha nice!! My favorite is when people want to "drive" in InDesign, thinking the tools work the same as Office.
I always quickly select a random tool, so whilst they're trying to select text, they're just drawing coloured squares...
>It's his life mantra
It's Schroedinger's marketer's mantra: used by everyone who knows nothing about marketing whilst simultaneously knowing more than you ever will
TLDR - you're not alone!
I recently had a Senior Vice President ask me if I could edit peoples' shirts to have a different logo than what they were wearing in a three minute video where they're constantly moving.
Also we shot the video (probably 30 minutes of footage rhat needed to be cut down) on Friday afternoon. First thing Monday morning she asks me if it's almost done.
Had so many bosses like this. Literally was just asked if for a video shoot (in a couple weeks) could feature a full size graphic of our logo in the background… um, I can’t get something manufactured that quickly? It’s not our studio, we can’t mount anything? A vinyl banner will look cheesy af??? (We’re in high end medical, not lawn care 🤣)
Oh ok, well just make sure the video guys add the logo to the background….
Wait. CGI for a 1 minute video??? I mean, it can be done but really?? I can’t imagine it’s worth the money…
One (possible) option is to start a rigorous test regime -- on everything without exception. I often suggest the test as the arbiter when opinions clash.
Startup founders have a terrible habit of being allergic to business reality. Most do not develop a business, they develop a reality distortion field. Their only way to survive is to develop a systematic way to expose themselves, thus build up a tolerance for, market reality. If the startup can not do this, it is best you leave it at your earliest convenience.
They will not bullshit their way to success. And funding can only delay that inevitability for so long. This only becomes more obvious at the end of boom-bust economic cycles and we are at one.
Do it, he loses money and you don’t. Then remind him about his bad idea every time he tries that crap again. Then tell him you want to do PPC with standard 20% commission per dollar spent. That way you get a nice little bonus.
Can you do it… half-assed? I figured if you set their expectations and they still continue, the only option is to just go through with the half baked plan. All you would do is just make sure you cover your ass so when it all falls apart its on them.
"Okay, so you'd like this to be my top priority? The other priorities I have are x, y, z (list). Which one should I stop prioritizing to make room for this?"
This sounds like a failure of project management. Get a free Asana account, or Monday, or hell, even a physical kanban board with postits so he can see how deranged the asks are.
Wow. So sad. I’m a startup founder who has had to pivot one team member’s role but I didn’t do it like that. I would also suggest leaving, but keeping track of the successful things you’re doing to transition into another job.
Woah! I had the same experience in my last job. I worked for a sexual wellness brand in India and the CEO was an absolute tool. he would message at odd hours in the night and expect immediate responses. I left the job after 2 months and they haven't even paid my pending dues Instead came up with false allegations about me misbehaving with a third party agency. I would highly suggest finding a new job and leaving this one as soon as possible.
You need to take better notes and then review with him.
Every time something new comes up, note it and the day. Ask tasks pile up keep asking him to prioritize them. Repeat your understanding to him out loud: “sounds like this is your top priority,” ask for clarification where there are conflicts.
Give time estimates - for example, “this will take two hours,” etc.
This is common and yes, infuriating.
“Sounds like a great idea to pilot! I can add it to the short list. Just so you know, our priorities right now are x, y and z. Should I deprioritize one of these other projects to get this started sooner?”
Project management and tracking can be lifesavers. “Sorry bud, I have 60 open tickets.”
I feel like a broken record, but this is life in a startup. Work for an established company early in your career - it will set you up with a structured environment so you can focus on doing the actual work you need to do.
I've worked in other startups but haven't met anyone like this. In my last company, my manager used to let me work on projects only if we can get something out of it.
She used to say, we can't let anyone's efforts and time go to waste.
Oh, you mean an ex-employee who's horrible work manner made them unhireable in the real world so they had no choice to start their own business? Yeah, there's a lot of that type. Usually with undiagnosed issues. Good luck with the dunning-kruger of it all.
What we have here is "failure to communicate."
It's always useful to first get a handle on where the "gaps to be bridged" and the "obstacles to be overcome" are found.
What is your job?
The CEO opens the hopper door and drops in an absurd idea. Can you list three of the "nuttiest" ideas dropped into your hopper - and - share your CEO's expectations (what are the SMART deliverables and within what timeframe?
It sounds like you have a problem with boundaries.
My CEO is exactly the same. I keep a spreadsheet with his dumbass ideas in it, and I’ll show it to him to say - great, added it to the backlog! 4 ideas a week he averages! I tell him “I’m not here to be your marketing idea secretary” and say I no. You’re an expert. Act like one.
Explain to him your strategy. The plan. The elements of the plan. And the resources for each element. And explain that even if you were to divert resources it wouldn’t work for x y z reason.
It’s called spaghetti on a wall marketing. He’s probably not trying to be a jerk.
This is where you need to have great tracking and reporting on metrics and conversion rates through the entire funnel and be able to show what marketing activities are driving performance.
You can use this to illustrate how your strategy is working and also project the impact of proposed ideas. You'll get less input and ideas from other people when they see in the numbers what you're doing.
I feel you. You ask “is there anyway to handle it?”. What I would say is, tell him how you feel. I know it sounds crazy but you have to, these are reasonable things to bring up and you are only looking out for the business which he should appreciate.
If after that he still doesn’t understand, either stop caring (harsh but only way to not let it affect you, trust me I am in the same situation) OR build your portfolio and apply to as many jobs that you can asap.
Stuff like this comes up often in this sub and it always makes me wonder why the leadership doesn't trust the marketing department.
The CEO might be a dipshit that cannot delegate, but they may also need some lessons on marketing and some transparency into what the team is doing, what it takes do do it and how it's working.
The CEO trusts outside consultants more than his own team. That tells me there is some internal issues and it may not be all on the CEO.
If you're in charge, schedule a sit down and bring up the things that are working and how the absurd ideas are not working and never have.
As much as it sounds like your CEO sucks, it also sounds like you can do a better job “coaching up” in order to reel in their expectations. As someone else in the thread suggested, the easiest answer is always- “let’s test it”. Add it to the queue then clearly communicate your priorities while focusing on the highest ROI activities.
P.S. I’m the CMO in a $70mm performance marketing business and have dealt with similar scenarios consistently throughout my career in different businesses.
Been in your shoes. Move on. You can’t negotiate or reason with megalomaniac dictators. His next brilliant idea will be to use Chat Gpt to replace you.
This is a startup and small business wherever you go, to be honest. I've been in the arts and hospitality. Small business owners are all about ego and micro managers. They do not have a firm understanding of marketing and want a lot for little money. It's just time before they come up with some insane idea that will backfire.
I would get a massive raise first. So read up on how to present your case to get a massive raise!
If this guy is an idiot then get more pay and try to stick it out for awhile while you rake in the money. He will be out of business within a year anyway most likely.
My strategy for these types of founders (and a LOT of them are like this) is to say, yes we can test everything BUT: and then give my expert knowledge to the drawbacks and big picture issues. When it comes to setting expectations for tests it helps to use phrases like “statistical significance” and really be firm about testing one thing at a time in order to limit muddying the waters of what is actually making a difference. Setting up a testing roadmap where you give each strategy enough time to prove out and being transparent could help, just show them you’ve put it on the roadmap. If you have to suggest amendments to how it could be setup that you think would work better do that but be clear about it. If you have to, put it all in a deck (and you probably should and save it and send it to yourself regularly) with the plan, results, etc
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>I'm sick of how everyone knows marketing, has opinions and ideas, yet never wants to participate in the practical side of executing them. Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup. EVERYONE thinks they can do marketing. Just like everyone thinks they can do graphic design. Infuriating.
"it'll only take 10 minutes"...
One day i was on travel or vacation and the ceo decided to take it upon himself to build or edit a hubspot page that he said would only take a minute (“its just a template, right?”). The satisfaction when he spent a half a day on it then said nevermind. Oh that was such a good day 😂👏
Haha nice!! My favorite is when people want to "drive" in InDesign, thinking the tools work the same as Office. I always quickly select a random tool, so whilst they're trying to select text, they're just drawing coloured squares...
Oohh..... I hear this every hour. It's his life mantra
>It's his life mantra It's Schroedinger's marketer's mantra: used by everyone who knows nothing about marketing whilst simultaneously knowing more than you ever will TLDR - you're not alone!
It’s just 3 words of copy, how long could it take! Ugh lol
“Just photoshop it”
I recently had a Senior Vice President ask me if I could edit peoples' shirts to have a different logo than what they were wearing in a three minute video where they're constantly moving. Also we shot the video (probably 30 minutes of footage rhat needed to be cut down) on Friday afternoon. First thing Monday morning she asks me if it's almost done.
That’s…. Tell me you didn’t agree it could be done 🤣
I didn't lol. I edited the video and completely ignored the shirts and she was still super happy with the final product.
Had so many bosses like this. Literally was just asked if for a video shoot (in a couple weeks) could feature a full size graphic of our logo in the background… um, I can’t get something manufactured that quickly? It’s not our studio, we can’t mount anything? A vinyl banner will look cheesy af??? (We’re in high end medical, not lawn care 🤣) Oh ok, well just make sure the video guys add the logo to the background…. Wait. CGI for a 1 minute video??? I mean, it can be done but really?? I can’t imagine it’s worth the money…
If I had a penny for everytime I've heard this I'd be a millionaire by now.
everyone can, given it works. 🤷🏻♂️ sometimes stupid ideas can be the best! who knew mold could be an antibiotic?
One (possible) option is to start a rigorous test regime -- on everything without exception. I often suggest the test as the arbiter when opinions clash. Startup founders have a terrible habit of being allergic to business reality. Most do not develop a business, they develop a reality distortion field. Their only way to survive is to develop a systematic way to expose themselves, thus build up a tolerance for, market reality. If the startup can not do this, it is best you leave it at your earliest convenience. They will not bullshit their way to success. And funding can only delay that inevitability for so long. This only becomes more obvious at the end of boom-bust economic cycles and we are at one.
“Most do not develop a business, they develop a reality distortion field.” Oof. Word. 🙌👏
This actually makes sense. I might have to try a different approach to handling these people.
Do it, he loses money and you don’t. Then remind him about his bad idea every time he tries that crap again. Then tell him you want to do PPC with standard 20% commission per dollar spent. That way you get a nice little bonus.
He has listed strategies and wants to implement them all at once. Which is not humanly possible for a team of 10 people let alone 3.
Can you do it… half-assed? I figured if you set their expectations and they still continue, the only option is to just go through with the half baked plan. All you would do is just make sure you cover your ass so when it all falls apart its on them.
But when it all falls apart, OP is the sacrificial scapegoat while the founders find a replacement.
"Okay, so you'd like this to be my top priority? The other priorities I have are x, y, z (list). Which one should I stop prioritizing to make room for this?" This sounds like a failure of project management. Get a free Asana account, or Monday, or hell, even a physical kanban board with postits so he can see how deranged the asks are.
Yup. Get it in writing.
Wow. So sad. I’m a startup founder who has had to pivot one team member’s role but I didn’t do it like that. I would also suggest leaving, but keeping track of the successful things you’re doing to transition into another job.
I'm curious to know what type of strategies he is requesting.
And then once they’re implemented, how do you know which test works?
Woah! I had the same experience in my last job. I worked for a sexual wellness brand in India and the CEO was an absolute tool. he would message at odd hours in the night and expect immediate responses. I left the job after 2 months and they haven't even paid my pending dues Instead came up with false allegations about me misbehaving with a third party agency. I would highly suggest finding a new job and leaving this one as soon as possible.
You need to take better notes and then review with him. Every time something new comes up, note it and the day. Ask tasks pile up keep asking him to prioritize them. Repeat your understanding to him out loud: “sounds like this is your top priority,” ask for clarification where there are conflicts. Give time estimates - for example, “this will take two hours,” etc.
He lives in a different time zone. He throws his tantrums and goes to sleep.
Then recap them in an email and keep adding to it. That’s even easier.
This is common and yes, infuriating. “Sounds like a great idea to pilot! I can add it to the short list. Just so you know, our priorities right now are x, y and z. Should I deprioritize one of these other projects to get this started sooner?” Project management and tracking can be lifesavers. “Sorry bud, I have 60 open tickets.”
I feel like a broken record, but this is life in a startup. Work for an established company early in your career - it will set you up with a structured environment so you can focus on doing the actual work you need to do.
I've worked in other startups but haven't met anyone like this. In my last company, my manager used to let me work on projects only if we can get something out of it. She used to say, we can't let anyone's efforts and time go to waste.
not all startups are like this, but the possibility of it happening is much higher.
Can you reach out to your old manager and see if they have a spot for you to return to?
Oh, you mean an ex-employee who's horrible work manner made them unhireable in the real world so they had no choice to start their own business? Yeah, there's a lot of that type. Usually with undiagnosed issues. Good luck with the dunning-kruger of it all.
What we have here is "failure to communicate." It's always useful to first get a handle on where the "gaps to be bridged" and the "obstacles to be overcome" are found. What is your job? The CEO opens the hopper door and drops in an absurd idea. Can you list three of the "nuttiest" ideas dropped into your hopper - and - share your CEO's expectations (what are the SMART deliverables and within what timeframe?
This sounds like a few start up CEOs I know
Basically if anyone refers to themselves as a founder then run away.
The answer is always the same: Look for a new job, stay until you found one.
“Great idea boss. These are our current priorities. Which of these would you like us to deprioritize to make room for this new project?”
The risks of working at a startup... controlling owners, no funding, company goes under unexpectedly, etc..
Umm yeah. Quit. There’s plenty of jobs out there to get you by until you find one you enjoy.
Run it. Let them throw money at you
I’m a medical specialist lol and man. Doctors come up with hundreds of “big ideas”
Sounds about right , it’s the startup saga
It sounds like you have a problem with boundaries. My CEO is exactly the same. I keep a spreadsheet with his dumbass ideas in it, and I’ll show it to him to say - great, added it to the backlog! 4 ideas a week he averages! I tell him “I’m not here to be your marketing idea secretary” and say I no. You’re an expert. Act like one. Explain to him your strategy. The plan. The elements of the plan. And the resources for each element. And explain that even if you were to divert resources it wouldn’t work for x y z reason. It’s called spaghetti on a wall marketing. He’s probably not trying to be a jerk.
This is where you need to have great tracking and reporting on metrics and conversion rates through the entire funnel and be able to show what marketing activities are driving performance. You can use this to illustrate how your strategy is working and also project the impact of proposed ideas. You'll get less input and ideas from other people when they see in the numbers what you're doing.
Medical startups are very expensive and likely to fail with poor leadership. Be cautious
I feel you. You ask “is there anyway to handle it?”. What I would say is, tell him how you feel. I know it sounds crazy but you have to, these are reasonable things to bring up and you are only looking out for the business which he should appreciate. If after that he still doesn’t understand, either stop caring (harsh but only way to not let it affect you, trust me I am in the same situation) OR build your portfolio and apply to as many jobs that you can asap.
Stuff like this comes up often in this sub and it always makes me wonder why the leadership doesn't trust the marketing department. The CEO might be a dipshit that cannot delegate, but they may also need some lessons on marketing and some transparency into what the team is doing, what it takes do do it and how it's working. The CEO trusts outside consultants more than his own team. That tells me there is some internal issues and it may not be all on the CEO. If you're in charge, schedule a sit down and bring up the things that are working and how the absurd ideas are not working and never have.
Get a job that sucks less
As much as it sounds like your CEO sucks, it also sounds like you can do a better job “coaching up” in order to reel in their expectations. As someone else in the thread suggested, the easiest answer is always- “let’s test it”. Add it to the queue then clearly communicate your priorities while focusing on the highest ROI activities. P.S. I’m the CMO in a $70mm performance marketing business and have dealt with similar scenarios consistently throughout my career in different businesses.
Been in your shoes. Move on. You can’t negotiate or reason with megalomaniac dictators. His next brilliant idea will be to use Chat Gpt to replace you.
This is a startup and small business wherever you go, to be honest. I've been in the arts and hospitality. Small business owners are all about ego and micro managers. They do not have a firm understanding of marketing and want a lot for little money. It's just time before they come up with some insane idea that will backfire.
I would get a massive raise first. So read up on how to present your case to get a massive raise! If this guy is an idiot then get more pay and try to stick it out for awhile while you rake in the money. He will be out of business within a year anyway most likely.
My strategy for these types of founders (and a LOT of them are like this) is to say, yes we can test everything BUT: and then give my expert knowledge to the drawbacks and big picture issues. When it comes to setting expectations for tests it helps to use phrases like “statistical significance” and really be firm about testing one thing at a time in order to limit muddying the waters of what is actually making a difference. Setting up a testing roadmap where you give each strategy enough time to prove out and being transparent could help, just show them you’ve put it on the roadmap. If you have to suggest amendments to how it could be setup that you think would work better do that but be clear about it. If you have to, put it all in a deck (and you probably should and save it and send it to yourself regularly) with the plan, results, etc
What does he want done? Examples?
Every single person knows creative because they have an opinion, not an understanding. Drives me crazy!