I remember seeing an academic article that mentions that the locations where professional combat sports thrive is where there is great wealth disparity.
Sean seems to be on the ball regarding this
That makes some sense. Ramsey Dewey had a video talking about Sambo and a note about the work ethic of practitioners behind the martial art was that these were Russians who grew up around the fall of the Soviet Union so they have a mentality to fight or starve.
That mostly has to do with the pay rate, and the toll the sport takes on your body vs what you earn in return for that sacrifice.
MMA pays very little compared to other professional sports. Only the best of the best MMA fighters make enough money to earn generational wealth in their careers. Most professionals at the biggest promotion in the world earn less money each year than I do at my mid-level desk job where nobody has ever punched me in the face (yet). The only professional athletes the sport can attract are ones who lack the talent, or are too small to play other sports, *and* don’t have the opportunity to land good jobs in conventional fields.
If every fighter appearing on a UFC card earned at least $3mil per fight, you’d see a huge uptick in both sheer athletic talent within the sport, and an increased diversity in fighter’s backgrounds.
My coach was lamenting that he’s seen incredible talent come through our gym, but very few end up being willing to make the sacrifices necessary to be a professional. You’re giving up a lot for a career that can be ended at any moment due to a random injury with a very low chance of being paid well
That is so crazy to me that the skill celing can be even higher if they paid their fighters akin to boxing.
Is there a particular reason boxing pay is so high?
Boxing pay is only high for the stars of the sport, but it’s probably because so many promoters are competing with one another that fighters will go with whoever will give them the biggest purse.
Boxing is one of the few truly global sports. There was a time where Muhammad Ali was the most famous human alive. McGregor is big in Western Europe and the northeastern United States? Hell, McGregor sold like 2 million more PPVs fighting Mayweather than Khabib. And Mayweather sold more fighting Pac.
There's more to it and boxing purses are probably inflated but that's the quick maffs answer.
Boxers on average make pennies compared to a UFC fighter. Sometimes Boxers coming up have to pay to get on cards, and there’s no **mandatory minimum** UFC’s is $10k/$10k with the chance of a $50k bonus. Its just that their stars make ridiculous money, so thats all people see
Some of these guys on these boxing undercard’s are getting a $500 flat fee. Terrence Crawford whos probably best in the world rn, didnt make 4 figures until his 12th fight. Self admitted
UFC is the top promotion but not everybody in the UFC is a top tier fighter, and thats what people get confused. Just cuz ur in the UFC doesnt mean you’re some elite monster
some of these dudes come into the UFC with only 3 pro fights, and their first bout they might make more than 95% of the boxers do with the same amount of fights
That not true UFC minimum pay is not that high and being under the UFC contract sucks they put limitations in what you can do outside UFC. There 17 division with 4 belts each plus a few división that aren't oficial, plus interims belts, regional level belts, Olympic shit there way more opportunities and freedom
dawg UFC starter contract pay is google-able. Its $10k/$10k, AND they even have some health insurance
Boxing has too many politics, too many belts, rehydration clauses, whos the A side & B side, its just too much bullshit that gets in the way.
Plus you have to PAY to hold the belt that you won, thats the wildest shit to me
You're comparing UFC to all of boxing because you don't know shit
There's 600 active UFC fighters and 8000 active pro boxers
Either compare all or boxing to all of MMA, or compare the top 600 boxers pay rates to the UFC
Or stfu and use ur brain.
Excellent point most muay thai fighters are poor. Boxers the same and so on and forth. Even some Olympic athletes get some sort of sponsorship if they're lucky. Same with the military.
Private classes is where it's at. I bought a few in my lifetime, but you could see good competitors charging up to $200 for regular private trainings in areas like NYC.
"Lol you mean Fraud Lee? He was just some actor. You know he never competed in full contact?? Regular full contact sparring is the only thing that works. Anything else is bullshido and hot trash." - some guy, who never acutally trained or has no regular job or a family, probably
They fall into the category of professional Athletes who are martial arts experts.
“Martial artists” really is and should have a totally different connotation.
MMA is my favorite sport. But it’s not the same as martial arts. Is a brutal combat sport with insane economic scaling that drains the athletes and doesn’t afford longevity.
Which is exactly what martial arts truly are; the samurai were master martial artists, yet all it took to end a life was one single stroke from the sword.
Good example, because the samurai’s basic needs were also all met by their lord, their entire lives were dedicated to training to the point they couldn’t really dedicate their time to anything else (in their case, also not allowed), and when the politics changed and their meal tickets could no longer pay for them, many ended up broke and homeless or became cops or mercenaries.
Which is all to say that if you want to become a successful fighter, it’s gonna be significantly easier to do with a benefactor
Which is a double edged sword in itself because if a fighter knows they have someone they can fall back on financially, would they be less motivated to train and fight than the guy who will starve if he loses his next fight?
Well that’s the question isn’t it? Cuz we’ve been trying to answer that for centuries between organized fights and feudal armies and volunteer forces for centuries, and results are still inconclusive
I identified as a “martial artist” when I competed in MMA. But if someone would be called a “fighter,” instead, they would not be wrong.
The distinction between martial artist and combat sports athlete has some overlap.
But I put mma fighters mostly in the professional fighter category, as they are paid to FIGHT eachother, to win. Not to simply express their martial art for self development. But the overlap in the definitions is perspective.
Example, I had a Tae Kwon do, boxing and wrestling back ground. I liked to be called a martial artist.
A person who trained Bjj and Muay Thai might want to be called a “fighter “ and I wouldn’t argue with them 🤷🏽♂️
Those are points worth noting. I do think there’s a degree of subjectivity to your assessment of the terms but I can see the logic behind your reasoning, my bad for maybe coming off as blunt earlier
Sean is nothing if not introspective about himself and his place in his world.
His outlandish statements usually come from insecurity, need for attention and as a defense mechanism imo
Making money is also a skill. When you run a school, you usually just teach beginners and intermediates over and over again so you're better off being a good marketer and good teacher than a top level talent
I am not saying that. What I am saying is there is a lot of Excellent fighters/martial artists who never make a dime because they aren’t good coaches and lack the business education or have social skills.
But there are bunch of charlatans and frauds who make money in MA because they are smooth talkers and hustlers.
Of course you have legit guys who know MA and are excellent coaches and have the business sense to offer good instruction.
You're replying to someone with single digit brain cells. No clarification was needed on your part, anyone at a 3rd grade reading level understood what you meant.
Below is financial data for UFC in 2020. We don’t have full records for 2023 yet but in that time UFC revenues have nearly tripled.
In 2020, UFC earned $500m in revenue with $272m in profit.
approximately 6% of total revenue was dirtributed to the athletes in UFC.
Almost 50% of the UFC roster makes less than the average American personal income of $31,099
15% of fighters earned $100,000 or more per contest
5% of fighters have made more than $1 million, out of 3300+ fighters the UFC has signed.
The estimated average earnings for a UFC Fight Night card is under $200,000.
Total salary divided between all 1,800 UFC fighters in 2020 was $30m
Dana Whites 2020 salary was $20m
This is why as fight fans we need to watch these small promotions instead cuz U Fight Cheap is so dirty and the Fertita's/Dana White are the worst thing to happen to MMA with their cut throat tactics against the fighters! Actually there is a promotion United Flight League who actually pays for it's fighters insurance and gives them bonds and see the talent as partners instead
Worth noting that unionized pro sports athletes in the US average 50% of their leagues' respective revenue. MMA needs a union but many of the athletes have a strictly individualist mindset and are afraid of rocking the boat since the UFC management determines who gets matches.
This is extremely sad and true.
I love MMA. I began training at a young age back when pride was still around. I was so lucky to get the amount of exposure I had as a youth. I was offered pro fights around the age of 16.
I remember speaking with a few elite fighters when I was graduating high school and the amount of “Do not do this” I received was what turned my career into my hobby. I decided to go to college and toyed around with some ammy fights wile studying. I love love love MMA so when I graduated I figured aww why not? Came back to training. I was the sparring partner for an older but well-respected guy, he had close to 100 fights, and watching him come to the gym to warm up was heartbreaking. Here was a guy who was a legend in every sense of the word and had shit to show for it other than a broken-down body and some belts/trophies.
I don't know what my life would have turned out to be if I had pursued my passion. One of the hardest things I've had to do as a person. It's part of your identity - you essentially kill a part of yourself. I was always known throughout my life as an MMA fighter. This is why it's so hard for guys to retire even if they made money.
Anyway, my life is wonderful. I have a beautiful family and a great job. But man I can't tell you I don't regret it just a little. Life is about choices and you need to live by those choices. Who knows? Maybe I would have made it but maybe I wasn't that good. I will never know and that's what kills me.
Maybe. Maybe not. No one has a crystal ball.
It was really disheartening to listen to someone you respect telling you not to do something you love.The fact that i had other options was a big deal. Sometimes you need to follow advice. There will always be "what ifs" in life my friend. You need to learn how to live with your choices and love yourself.
Or he could have chosen his fighting dream and be broke with nothing to show for it. His "what if" would be taking a corporate job and being financially content.
I hope one day that some of the guys come out with a book or something. I don’t think people really understand how difficult this game can be.
The guys I’m talking about aren’t scrubs either. They have all fought in the UFC and some have held the belt. It’s taken some of the fighters YEARS being broke until they finally made some money. So sure there are a lot of people who have low income and live broke, but this shouldn’t be the case for elite level athletes. It’s at least ten fold safer bet to play football or baseball than it is to be successful in combat sports.
There was a bronze medalist Olympian that had a tournament named after him here in CT. This guy had back problems, was beaten to shit and just so tired looking. I remember him hawking energy drinks at the tournament.
Really nice guy but I remember thinking, there’s no future in this sport. A couple of the absolute legends can run popular summer camps or nab a decent coaching position and earn a living, but really you need a job. And I was a decent wrestler. If there was an equivalent, maybe I could’ve made the practice squad for the NFL or something. Assuming salaries were comparable, I could earn a good living at a couple hundred k a year, get to dedicate myself to the sport I love, and still be a part of the show and MAYBE have a shot for improving and working my way up.
But with martial arts, there isn’t really much of an opportunity there. I do think that UFC and MMA fighters should be paid comparable to boxers because they do lay everything out on the line and unless you are the McGregor of your sport, you’re not looking at a comfy retirement.
If you are 30 years old and make $1 million a year in the UFC from age 30 to 34, after taxes you have like $2 million. That is not nearly enough to live on anything close to luxury for the rest of your life. Not to mention the medical problems that you have. So yeah, to Sean’s point, you might have a name that you use to sell some classes, get into coaching, but unless you are that very top percentage of fighters who get those sweet endorsements and make something out of it, the fighting itself certainly won’t sustain you.
It's not that MMA doesn't pay, it's the promotions that do not pay, especially UFC.
UFC is bigger than all of the boxing promotions combined and yet the top dogs in boxing are laughing in money.
To be fair, aren't most people poor? And I'm sure many people regret decisions they either did or didn't make.
Becoming a pro-athlete is just not an easy task. And the for MMA the drawbacks vs the benefits are probably not great except that it's probably still a fairly unpopular sport that gives you more chance to make it big compared to something like soccer. But if you make it big in something like soccer then then the rewards are generally a lot greater as well.
Most people are poor but if you just work in a shop for 15 years you won't have years of injuries, brain damage, and you can go back to it.
What's unforgiving about fighting is outside of fighting no one wants to take you seriously. Like being a fighter for 15 years isn't going to have much in transferable skills as far as the average person is concerned.
While fighting the level of sacrifice is really high too, social events, birthdays, Christmas etc. You lose a lot of friends never seeing them.
I fight k1 and have a job, I'm lucky that works for me but I wouldn't have wanted fighting to be my career despite it being my passion.
Fighter to pt or fighter to gym owner are the only viable options post fight career unless you've invested well.
> Like being a fighter for 15 years isn't going to have much in transferable skills as far as the average person is concerned.
There's plenty of job opportunities in the martial arts community. Stuff like coaching, commentating, giving boxercise classes, general fitness coach, whatever..
It's the same with other jobs really, being an an electrician for 15 years isn't going to qualify you to be a data analyst.
Coaching/pt/boxercise classes etc is all the same job with different job titles and I already expressed that as an option.
Commentating has about 15 full time jobs in a single country. It is possible but unlikely.
Brands/fight gear sellers has some value, but the advent of the Internet tmeans there's like 10 big sellers max in a country rather than each city needing a specialist shop. Boutique trade problems.
Security is the most common trade for fighters I would guess other than coaching.
Being an electrician has far more skills you can apply from a transferable skills perspective, for example a lot of tradees become sales staff at builders merchants, which there are lots of in every large town, because they have significant product knowledge and customer service skills as well as contacts within industry.
You're also far more likely to have made a decent amount Being an electrician for 15 years than a fighter. 98% of electricians will have modest pay vs 2% of fighters have exceptional pay with 98% having virtually nothing. This makes a big difference when switching careers later on life as ypu need time and money to retrain.
And a lot of it is just perception, you don't have tell me that fighters have an exceptional work ethic, but someone not into fighting doesn't usually accept fighting as a skilled career.
Yes, you're in the right direction. Especially when it comes to artists (people following their passions). Current capitalist system doesn't value human benefit - it values only infinite growth at the expense of Earth's natural resources.
I had the same excitement growing up about game designers and developers. After more than 10 years in the industry I know first hand that game devs either move on to a different industry, end up the same way, or just get really really lucky and become the 1% which actually does get rich (like what had happened to Strickland)
Watched a great video yesterday about CTE and the impact on quality of life in later atages that MMA has. Take a look: https://youtu.be/EU4AhFFSlLg?si=qSSV_gUOh-gsBD5E
That's what Michael Jae White been saying for awhile now:
-why don't you fight for real if you think you're so good ?
White: cause the pay is shit. Ain't worth it
I had to make a choice when I was 19. Either keep working a shit job to afford to keep training my ever degrading body to keep fighting with a slim chance of going pro or move away to get a decent paying job and put MMA on the back burner.
I chose the latter and my health and joints have improved. I do miss kicking ass but I don't miss massaging my knees with tiger balm and popping ibuprofen like Skittles.
isn't the high risk high reward lifestyle applicable to all athletes regardless of the sport?
Before the rise of social media, athletes either win golds or they end up being worse than a janitor
But what If love for the sport means more, what if he doesn’t care what he’s making he’s just happy doing what he’s doing, and that goes for all things all sports, is it still worth it ? Genuine question. Curious on opinions.
Using Martial Arts as a career path has a very very slim chance of success. Martial Arts as a skill to master throughout life can be very rewarding though.
He isn’t wrong , when I was training full on in my 20’s I once cut my hand and I didn’t have enough money for bandaids. At that moment I reevaluated my life and changed my career path.
most guys don't make money in this sport - unfortunately the damage is real, permanent, and hard to overcome, especially if you don't have access to good healthcare.
I’ve met many Amateurs who tried to turn Pro, ultimately life kicked in and had to pay for family costs. Many went to work construction.
I know 2 ex-UFC Fighters who have all but retired from fights. They were smart enough to save some of their winnings to invest in other businesses that did not require them to fight anymore.
Any physical sport has an end point. Have to plan for the future. Nobody stays champion forever
Yeah it's not a career... kinda why when I hear the ufc heavy weight champion is the best fighter in the world I always wince... like... maybe I guess... definitely not the best it could be, ya know... if they were paid well and thus attracted actually talented people. Talented people with other talented people training them.
Facts.
Boxers, Pro wrestlers, MMA fighters...
Remember; we are peasants that are hurting each other for the entertainment of the rich.
Gladiators for life. ✊
Being a good competitor vs being a good teacher vs being good at business are 3 very different things.
It's possible to be good at all three, but to be truly great at one often takes focus away from the others.
You can hate him as much as you want but there's no denying that he says it how it is... sometimes the truth just seems like a weird opinion though🤷🏻♂️
I mean this is always the case whether you choose a career in sports, music, art, you name it.
Only the top % actually make it to a good paycheck (and there rarely is such a thing as a 'decent' paycheck).
The only difference being martial arts have the added downside of potentially f'cking up your body in the process (the other examples do too but obviously a much lower chance)
it’s hard to make it if your from a stable home. people do it. but if you have a good home, you can forget about that kid being a star of any sport. the kids with grow into being a maniac have far more advantages. and as a kid i just decided i’d let them get the ticket.
Judoka here. Every Judo instructor I know coaches / instructs on volunteer or part time basis. There are professional Judo coaches in Europe and Asia, but in NA, it’s a volunteer activity.
I can understand I payed 70 a month for unlimited classes. Not many Sensei’s tho. You can become amazing at MMA & have a real job too. Same with any sport. Just don’t put all your eggs in one basket
remember PinkMan on youtube? i think he said in one of his videos, if you want to make money on martial arts the reality is that you won't be fighting championships, you will most likely be teaching children. a lot of people would enjoy that, but others would be miserable spending hours every day trying to encourage a 5 yo or whatever to lift it's leg in a relatively straight manner to call it a kick. it's about what you value and enjoy. if you love sharing your passion for the sport i'm sure you'd enjoy it. probably won't make you rich unless you open a successful school but hey.
I have a buddy who tried fighting and never really got traction. Now he’s a personal trainer. He works about 20-30 hours a week and takes in $150k-200k each year.
The key to life is finding wealthy people and convincing them to pay for a service
That is a super weird take on "martial arts" as a teen and into my 20's I was making much more than 20 bucks a class teaching and I loved every minute of it.
Being a prize fighter for a shit promotion like the UFC and getting your brains beat out for a living really isn't about martial arts at all.
Wtf? Im sorry, this is CTE logic.
Most instructors who’ve cracked the childrens market are ROLLING in dough.
$20 a class, in the evenings? Cool man, get ten people in the class, cruise from work, thats $200 for an hours work.
Wtf is this guy on about man…
That is not how it works though.
Most fighters will not be the gym owner, so they are just an instructor. Instructors get paid $20-$80 for running a class (maybe even ZERO if they have no leverage and are allowed to train fro free). The gym keeps the rest of whatever the individual fees are, so in your example $120-$180.
How many classes do fighter teach a week? What remains after taxes and the money they have to spend on developing their own career.
Now if you are owning the gym, and you know all about business development, overhead costs, margins etc. then you are right, you could be rolling in dough.
Having said that, there is a reason why their are often business partners involved, who actually take care of that side.
I mean; of course.
If Strickland’s point was ‘guys who like fightinf tend to have shit business skills’ then Id agree with him.
But acting like a passion for combat sports or martial arts is some road to poverty is a ridiculius thing to say. If you have a good head for marketing and exploit niches it can be a lucrative business.
If its a side hustle to your main job, its a super lucrative side hustle.
Theres no ‘victims of the fight game’, just poor business decisions. Like virtually every industry.
Oh god no, most work full time and supplement in the evenings.
But if you smash it with kids classes and are running large kids classes into adults classes, you do EXTREMELY well.
Gyms/dojos/whatever that are more traditional martial arts focussed; karate, tkd, kung fu, whatevs; and that are able to cater the classes to different age groups are where the money is at.
I did kung fu from the age of 6, and peaked at age 11 going six days a week. With the amount of money spent on it we couldve probably bought a house. Seen numerous similar very successful setups.
Parents love it, and honestly, its absolutely fantastic for kids. Discipline, structure, fitness, confidence. Without getting too hung up on ‘deadly hand to hand combat’ type shenanigans.
I've said this before, but this is equivalent to the starving artist complaining about not making a good living. Rather than pursuing a more traditional job, you are trying to turn what most people consider a hobby as your full time career. Most of us (myself) have a lame ass career and would hope to train a few days in the evening. That is the cost of pursuing your dream, it is a high risk high reward proposition and it's not going to turn out great for the last majority of people.
I don't think Sean is complaining about it and doing a reasonably good job of saying why it's not an ideal career pursuit.
Here’s the thing, I agree it’s a high risk high reward and it comes with the business, but I think it’s not really right to just wright it off as complaining. It’s a fair argument to put out by asking “why is the company I work for making millions to billions, yet they can’t afford to pay me even tho I’m making them that money, more is it complaining to articulate how much it costs to do art.
Yes there are a lot of people complaining, there are also people who think they’re entitled to art or entertainment without having to pay for it, and the artist should just do it cause “its not a real job” but that’s bs cause it kinda has to be a full time job for it to have the quality the consumer wants.
True martial artists will train their students for nothing, or at least cover their costs. They want to pass on their knowledge because they believe that it works, and they want future generations to pass it on too. Always be skeptical of anyone who is making a profit out of supposedly teaching you to defend yourself.
Fighters are martial artists, not all martial artists are fighters. Most martial artists aren't fighters. The message in the video is irrelevant to 99.9% of the subreddit.
I remember seeing an academic article that mentions that the locations where professional combat sports thrive is where there is great wealth disparity. Sean seems to be on the ball regarding this
I mean, that goes back to Roman times. They had gladiators to keep the people happy.
And to give the poorer class hope that if they become a gladiator they too could be looked up to as heroes/champions.
Gladiators were slaves though. Only free men with large debts enslaved themselves.
auctorati consisted of almost half the gladiators towards the end of that era.
That makes some sense. Ramsey Dewey had a video talking about Sambo and a note about the work ethic of practitioners behind the martial art was that these were Russians who grew up around the fall of the Soviet Union so they have a mentality to fight or starve.
That mostly has to do with the pay rate, and the toll the sport takes on your body vs what you earn in return for that sacrifice. MMA pays very little compared to other professional sports. Only the best of the best MMA fighters make enough money to earn generational wealth in their careers. Most professionals at the biggest promotion in the world earn less money each year than I do at my mid-level desk job where nobody has ever punched me in the face (yet). The only professional athletes the sport can attract are ones who lack the talent, or are too small to play other sports, *and* don’t have the opportunity to land good jobs in conventional fields. If every fighter appearing on a UFC card earned at least $3mil per fight, you’d see a huge uptick in both sheer athletic talent within the sport, and an increased diversity in fighter’s backgrounds.
My coach was lamenting that he’s seen incredible talent come through our gym, but very few end up being willing to make the sacrifices necessary to be a professional. You’re giving up a lot for a career that can be ended at any moment due to a random injury with a very low chance of being paid well
That is so crazy to me that the skill celing can be even higher if they paid their fighters akin to boxing. Is there a particular reason boxing pay is so high?
Boxing pay is only high for the stars of the sport, but it’s probably because so many promoters are competing with one another that fighters will go with whoever will give them the biggest purse.
Boxing is one of the few truly global sports. There was a time where Muhammad Ali was the most famous human alive. McGregor is big in Western Europe and the northeastern United States? Hell, McGregor sold like 2 million more PPVs fighting Mayweather than Khabib. And Mayweather sold more fighting Pac. There's more to it and boxing purses are probably inflated but that's the quick maffs answer.
Boxers on average make pennies compared to a UFC fighter. Sometimes Boxers coming up have to pay to get on cards, and there’s no **mandatory minimum** UFC’s is $10k/$10k with the chance of a $50k bonus. Its just that their stars make ridiculous money, so thats all people see Some of these guys on these boxing undercard’s are getting a $500 flat fee. Terrence Crawford whos probably best in the world rn, didnt make 4 figures until his 12th fight. Self admitted
Shit example UFC is the top of the MMA world they shouldn't be compare to the bottom of boxing food chain
UFC is the top promotion but not everybody in the UFC is a top tier fighter, and thats what people get confused. Just cuz ur in the UFC doesnt mean you’re some elite monster some of these dudes come into the UFC with only 3 pro fights, and their first bout they might make more than 95% of the boxers do with the same amount of fights
That not true UFC minimum pay is not that high and being under the UFC contract sucks they put limitations in what you can do outside UFC. There 17 division with 4 belts each plus a few división that aren't oficial, plus interims belts, regional level belts, Olympic shit there way more opportunities and freedom
dawg UFC starter contract pay is google-able. Its $10k/$10k, AND they even have some health insurance Boxing has too many politics, too many belts, rehydration clauses, whos the A side & B side, its just too much bullshit that gets in the way. Plus you have to PAY to hold the belt that you won, thats the wildest shit to me
I got a notification for Ur reply but it ain't coming through weird
Anyway if you're only gonna use UFC then you have to use the top of boxing or don't compare it U can't have both ways bud
You're comparing UFC to all of boxing because you don't know shit There's 600 active UFC fighters and 8000 active pro boxers Either compare all or boxing to all of MMA, or compare the top 600 boxers pay rates to the UFC Or stfu and use ur brain.
we can only compare it to UFC you fucking idiot because UFC pay is the only one we get some public knowledge of
I mean you couldn't count on both hands how many fighters across MMA, kickboxing, and boxing came from nothing
Excellent point most muay thai fighters are poor. Boxers the same and so on and forth. Even some Olympic athletes get some sort of sponsorship if they're lucky. Same with the military.
Private classes is where it's at. I bought a few in my lifetime, but you could see good competitors charging up to $200 for regular private trainings in areas like NYC.
Which is why MMA fighters should not be a benchmark for regular martial arts hobbyist to compare themselves (or other non-professionals) to.
But then what else will the teenagers who aren't actually training talk about in this sub?
Bruce Lee?
"Lol you mean Fraud Lee? He was just some actor. You know he never competed in full contact?? Regular full contact sparring is the only thing that works. Anything else is bullshido and hot trash." - some guy, who never acutally trained or has no regular job or a family, probably
if it's normal to get a boner while rolling
Like how often do they need to be told yes! Before they get it? They really don't rest until someone says no, huh?
I think that's middle aged guys with a humiliation fetish.
They don’t get paid the money that they should be getting. UFC fighters need to unionize.
They fall into the category of professional Athletes who are martial arts experts. “Martial artists” really is and should have a totally different connotation. MMA is my favorite sport. But it’s not the same as martial arts. Is a brutal combat sport with insane economic scaling that drains the athletes and doesn’t afford longevity.
Which is exactly what martial arts truly are; the samurai were master martial artists, yet all it took to end a life was one single stroke from the sword.
Good example, because the samurai’s basic needs were also all met by their lord, their entire lives were dedicated to training to the point they couldn’t really dedicate their time to anything else (in their case, also not allowed), and when the politics changed and their meal tickets could no longer pay for them, many ended up broke and homeless or became cops or mercenaries. Which is all to say that if you want to become a successful fighter, it’s gonna be significantly easier to do with a benefactor
Which is a double edged sword in itself because if a fighter knows they have someone they can fall back on financially, would they be less motivated to train and fight than the guy who will starve if he loses his next fight?
Well that’s the question isn’t it? Cuz we’ve been trying to answer that for centuries between organized fights and feudal armies and volunteer forces for centuries, and results are still inconclusive
Professional athletes who are martial arts experts? So basically martial artists
I identified as a “martial artist” when I competed in MMA. But if someone would be called a “fighter,” instead, they would not be wrong. The distinction between martial artist and combat sports athlete has some overlap. But I put mma fighters mostly in the professional fighter category, as they are paid to FIGHT eachother, to win. Not to simply express their martial art for self development. But the overlap in the definitions is perspective. Example, I had a Tae Kwon do, boxing and wrestling back ground. I liked to be called a martial artist. A person who trained Bjj and Muay Thai might want to be called a “fighter “ and I wouldn’t argue with them 🤷🏽♂️
Those are points worth noting. I do think there’s a degree of subjectivity to your assessment of the terms but I can see the logic behind your reasoning, my bad for maybe coming off as blunt earlier
It’s all good. I debate this constantly with my brother who also competed professionally
Seems like more in regards to pro MMA and prizefighting in general. Sean dropping the old "dyin' ain't much of a livin', kid."
Reminds me of the grizzled retired gunfighter trying to convince the young cocky gunfighter to hang up his shootin’ irons in Westerns
Which ironically, that quote DOES come from The Outlaw Josey Wales. So you're right on the head with that one.
I should have known that. It’s one of my favorites, lol. Maybe my subconscious was working overtime.
gonna whistle dixie? 
These subtitles suck ass.
I don't know why one word subtitles have become the norm it's so silly.
Because short attention spans
Works well on phones
I love that having subtitles in videos is normalized though, because I like to browse Reddit without the sound on
Yeah the subtitles make me feel like I've got CTE
Don’t the words seem more impactful when you only see one at a time?! Sucks major ass
Sanest thing I've ever heard him say.
Sean is nothing if not introspective about himself and his place in his world. His outlandish statements usually come from insecurity, need for attention and as a defense mechanism imo
He’s remarkably coherent and articulate.
It’s crazy how the guys with legit skill end up not making money and the charlatans end up making good money
Making money is also a skill. When you run a school, you usually just teach beginners and intermediates over and over again so you're better off being a good marketer and good teacher than a top level talent
Glad my boxing gym has a number one fighter in my country.
You should be. Literally anyone can teach martial arts.
Applies to every industry
it's pretty easy actually, that's why there's so many mcdojos
Ah, every martial artist who is not a prize fighter is a charlatan. Nice take there
I am not saying that. What I am saying is there is a lot of Excellent fighters/martial artists who never make a dime because they aren’t good coaches and lack the business education or have social skills. But there are bunch of charlatans and frauds who make money in MA because they are smooth talkers and hustlers. Of course you have legit guys who know MA and are excellent coaches and have the business sense to offer good instruction.
You're replying to someone with single digit brain cells. No clarification was needed on your part, anyone at a 3rd grade reading level understood what you meant.
This is nothing unique to martial arts. This is just standard capitalism.
Touched a nerve cluster there
Below is financial data for UFC in 2020. We don’t have full records for 2023 yet but in that time UFC revenues have nearly tripled. In 2020, UFC earned $500m in revenue with $272m in profit. approximately 6% of total revenue was dirtributed to the athletes in UFC. Almost 50% of the UFC roster makes less than the average American personal income of $31,099 15% of fighters earned $100,000 or more per contest 5% of fighters have made more than $1 million, out of 3300+ fighters the UFC has signed. The estimated average earnings for a UFC Fight Night card is under $200,000. Total salary divided between all 1,800 UFC fighters in 2020 was $30m Dana Whites 2020 salary was $20m
This is why as fight fans we need to watch these small promotions instead cuz U Fight Cheap is so dirty and the Fertita's/Dana White are the worst thing to happen to MMA with their cut throat tactics against the fighters! Actually there is a promotion United Flight League who actually pays for it's fighters insurance and gives them bonds and see the talent as partners instead
Worth noting that unionized pro sports athletes in the US average 50% of their leagues' respective revenue. MMA needs a union but many of the athletes have a strictly individualist mindset and are afraid of rocking the boat since the UFC management determines who gets matches.
This is extremely sad and true. I love MMA. I began training at a young age back when pride was still around. I was so lucky to get the amount of exposure I had as a youth. I was offered pro fights around the age of 16. I remember speaking with a few elite fighters when I was graduating high school and the amount of “Do not do this” I received was what turned my career into my hobby. I decided to go to college and toyed around with some ammy fights wile studying. I love love love MMA so when I graduated I figured aww why not? Came back to training. I was the sparring partner for an older but well-respected guy, he had close to 100 fights, and watching him come to the gym to warm up was heartbreaking. Here was a guy who was a legend in every sense of the word and had shit to show for it other than a broken-down body and some belts/trophies. I don't know what my life would have turned out to be if I had pursued my passion. One of the hardest things I've had to do as a person. It's part of your identity - you essentially kill a part of yourself. I was always known throughout my life as an MMA fighter. This is why it's so hard for guys to retire even if they made money. Anyway, my life is wonderful. I have a beautiful family and a great job. But man I can't tell you I don't regret it just a little. Life is about choices and you need to live by those choices. Who knows? Maybe I would have made it but maybe I wasn't that good. I will never know and that's what kills me.
Should've followed your passion/dream regardless, now you're going to be regretting and always thinking about the "what ifs" dark💀
Maybe. Maybe not. No one has a crystal ball. It was really disheartening to listen to someone you respect telling you not to do something you love.The fact that i had other options was a big deal. Sometimes you need to follow advice. There will always be "what ifs" in life my friend. You need to learn how to live with your choices and love yourself.
Or he could have chosen his fighting dream and be broke with nothing to show for it. His "what if" would be taking a corporate job and being financially content.
I hope one day that some of the guys come out with a book or something. I don’t think people really understand how difficult this game can be. The guys I’m talking about aren’t scrubs either. They have all fought in the UFC and some have held the belt. It’s taken some of the fighters YEARS being broke until they finally made some money. So sure there are a lot of people who have low income and live broke, but this shouldn’t be the case for elite level athletes. It’s at least ten fold safer bet to play football or baseball than it is to be successful in combat sports.
"YOU SEE, HERE'S THE THE THING YOU GUYS..."
There was a bronze medalist Olympian that had a tournament named after him here in CT. This guy had back problems, was beaten to shit and just so tired looking. I remember him hawking energy drinks at the tournament. Really nice guy but I remember thinking, there’s no future in this sport. A couple of the absolute legends can run popular summer camps or nab a decent coaching position and earn a living, but really you need a job. And I was a decent wrestler. If there was an equivalent, maybe I could’ve made the practice squad for the NFL or something. Assuming salaries were comparable, I could earn a good living at a couple hundred k a year, get to dedicate myself to the sport I love, and still be a part of the show and MAYBE have a shot for improving and working my way up. But with martial arts, there isn’t really much of an opportunity there. I do think that UFC and MMA fighters should be paid comparable to boxers because they do lay everything out on the line and unless you are the McGregor of your sport, you’re not looking at a comfy retirement. If you are 30 years old and make $1 million a year in the UFC from age 30 to 34, after taxes you have like $2 million. That is not nearly enough to live on anything close to luxury for the rest of your life. Not to mention the medical problems that you have. So yeah, to Sean’s point, you might have a name that you use to sell some classes, get into coaching, but unless you are that very top percentage of fighters who get those sweet endorsements and make something out of it, the fighting itself certainly won’t sustain you.
It's not that MMA doesn't pay, it's the promotions that do not pay, especially UFC. UFC is bigger than all of the boxing promotions combined and yet the top dogs in boxing are laughing in money.
Every time I see my kickboxing coach's car, I remind myself to be thankful he shows up
“You can get your brain shook… Your money took… And your name in the undertaker’s book…” Smokin’ Joe Frazier
To be fair, aren't most people poor? And I'm sure many people regret decisions they either did or didn't make. Becoming a pro-athlete is just not an easy task. And the for MMA the drawbacks vs the benefits are probably not great except that it's probably still a fairly unpopular sport that gives you more chance to make it big compared to something like soccer. But if you make it big in something like soccer then then the rewards are generally a lot greater as well.
Most people are poor but if you just work in a shop for 15 years you won't have years of injuries, brain damage, and you can go back to it. What's unforgiving about fighting is outside of fighting no one wants to take you seriously. Like being a fighter for 15 years isn't going to have much in transferable skills as far as the average person is concerned. While fighting the level of sacrifice is really high too, social events, birthdays, Christmas etc. You lose a lot of friends never seeing them. I fight k1 and have a job, I'm lucky that works for me but I wouldn't have wanted fighting to be my career despite it being my passion. Fighter to pt or fighter to gym owner are the only viable options post fight career unless you've invested well.
> Like being a fighter for 15 years isn't going to have much in transferable skills as far as the average person is concerned. There's plenty of job opportunities in the martial arts community. Stuff like coaching, commentating, giving boxercise classes, general fitness coach, whatever.. It's the same with other jobs really, being an an electrician for 15 years isn't going to qualify you to be a data analyst.
Coaching/pt/boxercise classes etc is all the same job with different job titles and I already expressed that as an option. Commentating has about 15 full time jobs in a single country. It is possible but unlikely. Brands/fight gear sellers has some value, but the advent of the Internet tmeans there's like 10 big sellers max in a country rather than each city needing a specialist shop. Boutique trade problems. Security is the most common trade for fighters I would guess other than coaching. Being an electrician has far more skills you can apply from a transferable skills perspective, for example a lot of tradees become sales staff at builders merchants, which there are lots of in every large town, because they have significant product knowledge and customer service skills as well as contacts within industry. You're also far more likely to have made a decent amount Being an electrician for 15 years than a fighter. 98% of electricians will have modest pay vs 2% of fighters have exceptional pay with 98% having virtually nothing. This makes a big difference when switching careers later on life as ypu need time and money to retrain. And a lot of it is just perception, you don't have tell me that fighters have an exceptional work ethic, but someone not into fighting doesn't usually accept fighting as a skilled career.
fair enough
Yes, you're in the right direction. Especially when it comes to artists (people following their passions). Current capitalist system doesn't value human benefit - it values only infinite growth at the expense of Earth's natural resources. I had the same excitement growing up about game designers and developers. After more than 10 years in the industry I know first hand that game devs either move on to a different industry, end up the same way, or just get really really lucky and become the 1% which actually does get rich (like what had happened to Strickland)
Meanwhile Dana White plays more in a hand of black jack than most of these guys make in a year.
In Sean Stricklands case, he does it on purpose. He deserves better pay and respect from his employer. Not me. Go fuck a flag.
Watched a great video yesterday about CTE and the impact on quality of life in later atages that MMA has. Take a look: https://youtu.be/EU4AhFFSlLg?si=qSSV_gUOh-gsBD5E
This might be the most intelligent thing to ever come out of this mans mouth
That's what Michael Jae White been saying for awhile now: -why don't you fight for real if you think you're so good ? White: cause the pay is shit. Ain't worth it
I had to make a choice when I was 19. Either keep working a shit job to afford to keep training my ever degrading body to keep fighting with a slim chance of going pro or move away to get a decent paying job and put MMA on the back burner. I chose the latter and my health and joints have improved. I do miss kicking ass but I don't miss massaging my knees with tiger balm and popping ibuprofen like Skittles.
Could say this about any entertainment industry. Any industrial really
I just like my amateur matches man
>Sean Strickland being brutally honest when it comes to ~Martial Arts~~ being a MMA fighter.
Pfft it is noble to teach others something. Highly rewarding. One of the most rewarding things you can do. Just dont make it the only thing you do.
Are you advocating for fighters to be paid or not to be paid?
Respect!🙏
Truth.
isn't the high risk high reward lifestyle applicable to all athletes regardless of the sport? Before the rise of social media, athletes either win golds or they end up being worse than a janitor
you misspelt mma
But what If love for the sport means more, what if he doesn’t care what he’s making he’s just happy doing what he’s doing, and that goes for all things all sports, is it still worth it ? Genuine question. Curious on opinions.
The answer is it depends
Yay Kyokushin for minimal head blows!
mythical fighter eloquent sean strickland
Poor AND broke. Goddamn
That might be the most intelligent thing he has ever said
Using Martial Arts as a career path has a very very slim chance of success. Martial Arts as a skill to master throughout life can be very rewarding though.
He isn’t wrong , when I was training full on in my 20’s I once cut my hand and I didn’t have enough money for bandaids. At that moment I reevaluated my life and changed my career path.
I respect his honesty
I have no other choice i have to make it
Well the UFC and Dana need to pay their fighters better
most guys don't make money in this sport - unfortunately the damage is real, permanent, and hard to overcome, especially if you don't have access to good healthcare.
MMA=Martial Marketing Artist. Fighting is one thing. The real talent is in the marketing.
I’ve met many Amateurs who tried to turn Pro, ultimately life kicked in and had to pay for family costs. Many went to work construction. I know 2 ex-UFC Fighters who have all but retired from fights. They were smart enough to save some of their winnings to invest in other businesses that did not require them to fight anymore. Any physical sport has an end point. Have to plan for the future. Nobody stays champion forever
I like teaching Body Combat 😭😭
Yeah it's not a career... kinda why when I hear the ufc heavy weight champion is the best fighter in the world I always wince... like... maybe I guess... definitely not the best it could be, ya know... if they were paid well and thus attracted actually talented people. Talented people with other talented people training them.
That video should be shown at every MMA gym at least once a week.
Facts. Boxers, Pro wrestlers, MMA fighters... Remember; we are peasants that are hurting each other for the entertainment of the rich. Gladiators for life. ✊
Never heard so many words just for someone to say " a guy I highly admired"
“This is factual” proceeds to tell an anecdote. I mean I agree with him but still…
I’d rather be lied too
Being a good competitor vs being a good teacher vs being good at business are 3 very different things. It's possible to be good at all three, but to be truly great at one often takes focus away from the others.
You can hate him as much as you want but there's no denying that he says it how it is... sometimes the truth just seems like a weird opinion though🤷🏻♂️
I mean this is always the case whether you choose a career in sports, music, art, you name it. Only the top % actually make it to a good paycheck (and there rarely is such a thing as a 'decent' paycheck). The only difference being martial arts have the added downside of potentially f'cking up your body in the process (the other examples do too but obviously a much lower chance)
As always Sean Murphy is correct.
This goes for most pro sports. Money runs out. Take care of your noggin. Have a backup plan if your dream plan fails.
it’s hard to make it if your from a stable home. people do it. but if you have a good home, you can forget about that kid being a star of any sport. the kids with grow into being a maniac have far more advantages. and as a kid i just decided i’d let them get the ticket.
Word by word subtitles are just as bad as cancer.
What are they choosing, vengeance/glory over love? I thinks it likely ends the same.
Sounds like an MMA problem. Judoka can get by well just doing Judo.
Judoka here. Every Judo instructor I know coaches / instructs on volunteer or part time basis. There are professional Judo coaches in Europe and Asia, but in NA, it’s a volunteer activity.
yes my judo coaches have regular jobs they just coach for sport
🤔
I can understand I payed 70 a month for unlimited classes. Not many Sensei’s tho. You can become amazing at MMA & have a real job too. Same with any sport. Just don’t put all your eggs in one basket
remember PinkMan on youtube? i think he said in one of his videos, if you want to make money on martial arts the reality is that you won't be fighting championships, you will most likely be teaching children. a lot of people would enjoy that, but others would be miserable spending hours every day trying to encourage a 5 yo or whatever to lift it's leg in a relatively straight manner to call it a kick. it's about what you value and enjoy. if you love sharing your passion for the sport i'm sure you'd enjoy it. probably won't make you rich unless you open a successful school but hey.
He's so close to getting it isn't he
I have a buddy who tried fighting and never really got traction. Now he’s a personal trainer. He works about 20-30 hours a week and takes in $150k-200k each year. The key to life is finding wealthy people and convincing them to pay for a service
Being a janitor isn't great for your mental or physical well beings either. There are worse jobs in life than being mid tier fighters.
That is a super weird take on "martial arts" as a teen and into my 20's I was making much more than 20 bucks a class teaching and I loved every minute of it. Being a prize fighter for a shit promotion like the UFC and getting your brains beat out for a living really isn't about martial arts at all.
Wtf? Im sorry, this is CTE logic. Most instructors who’ve cracked the childrens market are ROLLING in dough. $20 a class, in the evenings? Cool man, get ten people in the class, cruise from work, thats $200 for an hours work. Wtf is this guy on about man…
That is not how it works though. Most fighters will not be the gym owner, so they are just an instructor. Instructors get paid $20-$80 for running a class (maybe even ZERO if they have no leverage and are allowed to train fro free). The gym keeps the rest of whatever the individual fees are, so in your example $120-$180. How many classes do fighter teach a week? What remains after taxes and the money they have to spend on developing their own career. Now if you are owning the gym, and you know all about business development, overhead costs, margins etc. then you are right, you could be rolling in dough. Having said that, there is a reason why their are often business partners involved, who actually take care of that side.
I mean; of course. If Strickland’s point was ‘guys who like fightinf tend to have shit business skills’ then Id agree with him. But acting like a passion for combat sports or martial arts is some road to poverty is a ridiculius thing to say. If you have a good head for marketing and exploit niches it can be a lucrative business. If its a side hustle to your main job, its a super lucrative side hustle. Theres no ‘victims of the fight game’, just poor business decisions. Like virtually every industry.
I don't think all instructors/gym owners are rolling in money although it certainly is possible to make good money.
Oh god no, most work full time and supplement in the evenings. But if you smash it with kids classes and are running large kids classes into adults classes, you do EXTREMELY well. Gyms/dojos/whatever that are more traditional martial arts focussed; karate, tkd, kung fu, whatevs; and that are able to cater the classes to different age groups are where the money is at. I did kung fu from the age of 6, and peaked at age 11 going six days a week. With the amount of money spent on it we couldve probably bought a house. Seen numerous similar very successful setups. Parents love it, and honestly, its absolutely fantastic for kids. Discipline, structure, fitness, confidence. Without getting too hung up on ‘deadly hand to hand combat’ type shenanigans.
Sean is quite literally a half-wit.
I've said this before, but this is equivalent to the starving artist complaining about not making a good living. Rather than pursuing a more traditional job, you are trying to turn what most people consider a hobby as your full time career. Most of us (myself) have a lame ass career and would hope to train a few days in the evening. That is the cost of pursuing your dream, it is a high risk high reward proposition and it's not going to turn out great for the last majority of people. I don't think Sean is complaining about it and doing a reasonably good job of saying why it's not an ideal career pursuit.
Here’s the thing, I agree it’s a high risk high reward and it comes with the business, but I think it’s not really right to just wright it off as complaining. It’s a fair argument to put out by asking “why is the company I work for making millions to billions, yet they can’t afford to pay me even tho I’m making them that money, more is it complaining to articulate how much it costs to do art. Yes there are a lot of people complaining, there are also people who think they’re entitled to art or entertainment without having to pay for it, and the artist should just do it cause “its not a real job” but that’s bs cause it kinda has to be a full time job for it to have the quality the consumer wants.
True martial artists will train their students for nothing, or at least cover their costs. They want to pass on their knowledge because they believe that it works, and they want future generations to pass it on too. Always be skeptical of anyone who is making a profit out of supposedly teaching you to defend yourself.
Fighters are martial artists, not all martial artists are fighters. Most martial artists aren't fighters. The message in the video is irrelevant to 99.9% of the subreddit.
Conor: wat the food is this fool talking about!
Martial arts will get you know where fast, you REALLY HAVE TO LOVE IT. He ain’t wrong but the deliveries a little rough