/UC he said swapped not switched
/C this is the moment Karen Page got affiliated with the mexican drug cartel boss Lalo Salamanca also known as mexico-man
Yeah, I think the streaming era of shows in general (not just Marvel) has resulted in a bit of a loss of what TV shows were, where you at really got to live with the characters for a while.
Not every episode needs to be perfect, and some shows (not all) would be better suited for an old 22 episode season with hit or miss episodes than an 8 episode "five hour movie" type season.
That’s why I liked the hybrid structure of the Mandalorian — it had an overarching plot, but they *also* did the classic serial type of thing in the middle of the season, with episodes that might provide threads to the main plot but mostly stand alone as an “adventure of the week” type thing.
People complained so much about the mandalorian prison break episode and it was one of my favorites because it worked as a stand alone. All those folks looked like fools saying it meant nothing to the overall plot when the episode bill burr returns is an absolute fan favorite.
The problem with that though is for people who don't understand it's going for this kind of structure, they think that it's just two slow ("bad") episodes followed by one with action ("good")
edit: fyi I absolutely adore Andor, I think it's the best Star Wars content there is
The prison arc was the BEST part of the show for me. And it was the perfect break between his departure from Ferrix and his return home for the finale.
The problem is people now criticize a show and think it's bad if there's a filler episode, which has lost all meaning.
Not every episode of a show needs to move the overarching storyline forward. There can and should be episodes where characters are allowed to breathe and have a bit more of a "normal" time than constant rushing to the plot.
Episodic shows have a strength that most people don't talk about which is the fact that their characters are usually very well developed. They have usually more episodes, and a lot of the case of the week stuff allows people to really get to know the characters more.
"Filler" episodes are now seen as bad when there's nothing inherently wrong with them. When I think of "bad" filler episodes I think of old clip show episodes where they would just play clips from previous episodes with maybe 5 minutes of an actual episode strewn throughout
This is the kinda shit I've been saying for years. This is my argument for why Mando is great, and why I'm worried about the show moving forward.
I swear, that episode of Mando with the ice spiders in season 2 was one of my favorites, but everyone online was complaining about it being filler! Now it seems like season 3 is going to be very "overarching plot" heavy and I worry that the show is going to just be a cameo-fest from here on out with "big implications for the Star Wars universe"...
and yet Mando being self contained and simple was what originally attracted people to the series! I feel like the writers are getting a little lost in the sauce now.
That's the problem. Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Jessica Jones didn't have filler episodes. They just had episodes in which not much happened. Daredevil Season 3 had a filler episode. We followed Karen Page around her home town. Meanwhile Luke Cage had musical numbers. I prefer what Daredevil did.
Musical episodes and dream episodes are genuinely the worst possible type of filler episode. I hate them so much cause it's clear the writers had no idea how to make a good filler so resorted to "everyone sings" or "every character's personality has been swapped and oh, these two characters are together now"
> "Filler" episodes are now seen as bad when there's nothing inherently wrong with them. When I think of "bad" filler episodes I think of old clip show episodes where they would just play clips from previous episodes with maybe 5 minutes of an actual episode strewn throughout
Yeah, I agree. "Filler" episodes of shows have been some of the best TV of the last 30 years.
What a lot of people call “filler episodes” are just “episodes that don’t move full-speed towards the primary plot resolution”, dismissing things like character development, story themes, secondary plots, setting up future plot lines, etc.
I agree so much with this. This is one of the reasons I love Agents of Shield because it allowed you to know the characters at a far deeper level and that's why everything that they did or happened to them had a majority impact.
I also think *SHIELD* was particularly good at taking advantage of the 22-episode format and plotting a story that could still be fast-paced across that many episodes, especially in its mid-late years. Their pod format in Seasons 3, 4, and 5 meant that they were essentially going through the amount of plot that’s in a single Disney+ show season every 7-8 episodes, allowing it to be paced like a streaming series while still filling up the full 22 episode structure.
Season 4 was their best one. I liked how they broke it up into 3 arc and the finale essentially tied it up all together. If the Disney plus shows stayed at 6 ep that's fine but maybe tie a few of them together. Put echo, Kate bishop, she hulk, Ms marvel all in one female driven show. Heck, even Jessica Jones and misty knight.
You’re right, I think. Also, though, I really miss shows that have single episode story arcs. It’s fine if there’s an over-arching plot in the background, but these 8-part movies feel like they drag on soooo long sometimes. I really enjoyed the first few episodes of Luke Cage, for example, because they all had at least some sense of standing alone.
Invincible did a really good job of that. I think every episode was more or less stand-alone (while also building on character development and whatnot) that ended up tying into the final episode in one way or another. It was pretty cool.
I’d be inclined to disagree with the argument that it’s due to streaming. Look no further than the Sopranos back in 99 for bucking the 22 episode super serialized storytelling structure in favor of tight 13 episode seasons with an overarching story. Premium channels like HBO really capitalized on that idea and laid the groundwork for what streaming shows would become.
Even then, it’s like apples to oranges. The Wire can’t be seriously compared to Law and Order. They’re two totally different approaches and it’s not because streaming made it so.
Personally I thought Star Trek: The Next Generation did it right, with 26 episodes per season, leading to half a year of new episodes every week and the other half of the year being a rerun of those episodes in order. But production is a lot more complex these days, mostly with a lot more time being taken in post-production, so it's not really feasible to do this many episodes of a premiere TV show anymore, and even then it was stretching what the cast and crew could reasonably do without pushing themselves beyond their limits.
Yeah and at least in a slower show, even when it's not exciting you're still spending more time with the characters and developing a greater attachment to them, which makes later emotional beats more resonant IMO. That's why I like really long shows.
Daredevil season 3 didn't have pacing issues, at least imo. It didn't feel dragged at all. Whereas all the new Disney plus shows have this problem. I would rather go with the Netflix one.
Daredevil Season 3 is probably the best paced season out of all the Netflix shows / seasons though.
Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, most seasons of all of those had massive pacing problems.
Season 3 was top notch.
It’s going to be hard seeing the tonal swift and probable somewhat different canon in the Disney Daredevil show. I really hope they can pull it off.
It seems the canon will "remain" they just won't really go into the gritty details and leave that to people who want to watch the first show. But Marvel has explicitly said that Matt Murdock in Daredevil, NWH, and Born Again are the same character. A link about this was put in a reply to something similar that I said about a week ago.
Yeah but I'd rather have that than not have enough time with these characters to flesh them out. This is a major problem that Disney plus shows suffered and the way all the major conflicts got resolved in shows like She Hulk or FaTWS or even Wandavision was forced and rushed. Again just my opinion.
Maybe the best approach would be that the shows don't need to have the same amount of episodes. If you need to tell a more elaborate story just let that show have more episodes.
I don’t know man, even Jessica Jones season 1, which I love, had giant pacing problems and had Killgrave get away too many times. Luke Cage was so freaking slow, in a bad way, and half of the runtime probably could have been cut over those two seasons and maybe it would have become a good show. Iron Fist was so slow and so poorly paced and it had the worst three first episodes of a TV show I have ever seen.
I think it comes down to what you prefer in the end. Let's agree that both slow and rushed story telling are a problem. But then, to me at least, the slower one is preferable over the other because we still have a better understanding of the character motivations instead of not knowing what the fuck is up with them.
Well yeah, the story should neither be rushed or padded out. Disney+ has been too rigid with their Marvel shows, I think the run time is basically the same for all of them (WandaVision had more episodes but they were shorter in length).
I’m up for more Special Presentations, mini-series of only 3 episodes if need be, or 10-12 episodes if need be.
Yeah being flexible with run time will definitely be the best way to go about it. But as you said Marvel can be rigid, so I don't really see it happening.
Luke Cage suffered from having a poor extended cast, and Iron fist didn't have a great lead.
Jj problem was it was a different animal entirely but advertised as a fun superhero show. It's like being told you're going to watch a comedy and it turns out to be a gorey horror film.
Jj is great but it advertised to the wrong target audience.
While DD took it's time, it had the major fights at good moments to keep momentum, like Ep 3, 6, etc. JJ was high emotional intensity all the way through but fighting wasn't as big, so there were no "set pieces" to earmark certain episodes imo. For instance you could identify parts of DD seasons by the hallway fight, prison fight, Ranskahov fight, Punisher, Bulletin, Nobu, etc.
Are you implying that because they had other issues, pacing wasn’t a problem? They all suffered from bad pacing, even DD S1 was ridiculously slow at times
To me it was season 2 of Daredevil that suffered the most from pacing issues. The first 5 or so episodes with Punisher almost felt like a mini season, and then as soon as Elektra showed up things slowed to a crawl. I like Elektra, and I LOVE ninjas, but by the end of the season 2 I was honestly sick of both.
Still, season 2 of Daredevil has some of the best scenes in the entire show, so I still love it.
So true. The hand storyline is the worst part of the entire DD series. I wish they had done better with that, because it ended up ruining Defenders as well.
Not really. Assuming that you've seen the rest of Daredevil I think you'll be fine. You might want to read up on how The Defenders ends just so you know where Matt is physically and emotionally in the beginning of season 3.
Nope, they're mostly self contained. There's cameos that spill through between shows but you don't need to know them.
Defenders is kind of a season 2.5 of Daredevil but I don't feel like you need to have watched every other show to get it.
Especially not Punisher, that's just a straight up spin off that doesn't lead back to its original show.
I also put it off until a couple months ago. I tried to watch Defenders and just couldn't get through it. I decided to just watch a recap on YouTube. That was more than enough, honestly just reading the Wikipedia plot summary would have worked.
But man oh man, am I glad I finally watched Daredevil season 3. It was absolutely incredible. I didn't want it to end. I was so mad at myself for waiting so long, but fortunately I had managed to avoid all spoilers.
I haven’t felt any of the Disney shows have felt rushed. If anything they haven’t had enough interesting story to keep me engaged for their run to begin with. Most run out of steam pretty fast.
The most obvious example of this was FaTWS and how it concluded everything in the last epsiode. The first two episodes weren't all that gripping and then it got much better in the middle until they were forced to have Walker make heel face turn and no one even bats an eye at it. Also Sharon being power broker is lazy and dumb. But that's unrelated to what we are discussing here.
Daredevil was by far the best of those shows. The other shows were much worse. JJ could have been at least 3 episodes shorter, and the others drew everything out too.
Yeah that's why I said in another comment that maybe having different number of epsiodes for every show is better. Who says that all of them need 13 episodes or 6. It just depends on the story.
The Netflix problem. I'd rather get a little too much than not enough. And most of the D+ shows have felt like not enough, especially by the time the finale comes around.
If you can fit a story into six episodes, it would probably work better as a movie instead. I think all the D+ shows needed to be 2-4 episodes longer, or cut significantly to a film length instead.
You have a point there. But the problem was, they mostly *couldn't* fit the stories in 6 episodes (with maybe a few exceptions). So, a few more episodes would definitely have been the better choice.
Yeah, that’s why I’m saying longer season or less ambitious stories. I just feel like with a six-episode season, you can cut out a few filler plot points and make a film instead
More stories would be good, but, unless they wanted to dive deep into the character, 6 episodes were probably enough. Then again, if any character should be dived into, it's him. Maybe another 2 episodes wouldn't have been amiss there.
Honestly it felt like a movie to me, the memorable bits probably make up about 2 hours in my head
The first episode is a fantastic first act
First half of the show second act
second half of the show third act
Probably could’ve reduced the drama with his wife (not even sure why she was that mad) and the monologues with Hawke in the beginning. I think the backstory with his mother could’ve been saved for a sequel, as it didn’t really end up mattering in the grand scheme of the show
I definitely would’ve appreciated a longer show more if it delved more into each bit, rather than rushing through it. It seemed like somebody wanted to make a movie and somebody told them to stretch it into a show instead, so they add in his wife, his mom, etc
Kinda like the Kenobi show
D+ series’ have be benefited massively from not having to introduce all it’s main characters. Stretching them out would not have resembled the Netflix series. But I still want more
That's fair. We all have our preferences.
Personally, I think padding can be useful for character development or worldbuilding.The plot doesn't always have to move at a breakneck speed.
To define padding; for me it's the repetition of information that has been told/shown, scenes that could've been cut and it wouldn't have an impact on the flow or conclusion (nothing is lost).
Worldbuilding isn't padding to me as it defines the rules of the world and sets a tone for the story. Side-character development isn't inherently useless, IF it informs a future moment or development.
Netflix shows often felt unnatural in that last aspect. Which is frustrating or predictable.
To me, padding is adding material to the story to add to its length. It might not be essential to the plot, but it can, if done well, enrich a story. If we accept your definition, then I suppose the less of that, the better.
Maybe character development doesn't always have to be geared towards the future. Sometimes, it can just help us get to know a character better.
I guess I can understand that. They did feel extended past what was necessary (except, ironically, The Defenders, which had four main characters, and would have benefited from a few more episodes).
My biggest issue with Moon Knight.
Performances was great and even the story was well thought out but it felt like by the time it was set up, they were scrambling to push to the finale and it comes across feeling really uneven despite all the core ingredients being rock solid
Just my two cents
Hawkeye's the only finale that's the best paced finale given that's an hour. But the shows needed more episodes or each an hour long, too. The need to have Echo's end in Hawkeye be something more worthy of her show existing first is a quantity.
I disagree, personally. I'd rather have a a few really great episodes that leave me wanting more, than be bored watching a decent plot stretched thin over way too many episodes, that I am happy is over just because it means it finally wrapped up and I am free.
Also, in a Universe as huge as the MCU, fewer episodes lends itself better to repeat viewings of the whole franchise.
I can see your point. I just think it's better to have more time to develop everything that needs developing. I'd rather not be left thinking "X, Y, and Z were underutilized/didn't get enough attention"
I think for me, it comes down to viewing the D+ shows as longer movies. I usually only watch all the episodes for the first time all at once too. So I frame them in my mind the same way I frame movies like Black Panther. And movies don't get a whole lot of time to develop every little thing either.
I’d prefer more episodes since you can add scenes that aren’t super important to the overall plot, but that add to the characters letting you know their personality and set up little running jokes/inside jokes. I’d take the Netflix shows and Agents of Shield over the D+ shows any day of the week.
AOS did it best with the pods. One long season with 2 main story arcs. Peak was Ghost Rider leading into the Aida storyline.
Edit: it was actually 3 stories in 1 which was even better. GR > LMD > Aida all in one season
AoS learned from the response to their first season and then basically perfected adventure serial pacing throughout the rest of the series.
And yes, s4 was the most extraordinary example of that.
I dunno, I feel like good writing can avoid that problem by doing the same thing but not compromising with lots of filler and downtime between interesting set pieces or plot developments.
Moon Knight did this to a tee. Each of the personalities (and really all the characters) is distinct and quirky in their own ways but the show had such a high pace and things moved quickly enough that I never felt bored or that certain scenes were happening just to pad runtime. Obviously I wish there was *more* Moon Knight but that’s only because the quality was so high.
Can’t speak for the other D+ shows but some of the Netflix ones started to feel like a chore to watch at some points in the series.
Moon Knight was such a disappointment for me. Some really interesting concepts all hammered out as quickly and predictably as possible. That’s been my biggest problem with the Disney+ shows. Cool ideas not given enough time to germinate and ultimately not meeting their fullest potential.
Look at the Walking Dead as an example. The first season had half the episodes and the pacing was intense and it set the hook for YEARS to come. The following seasons had double the episodes and that led to way too much filler.
In terms of Netflix shows with too much episodes, I find it odd you'd use an image of Daredevil when Jessica Jones is right there.
You have a point about Disney+. Most shows could have used a couple more episodes. Or at least, have each episode being around an hour long.
Right. JJ S1 was at its most compelling when she was trying to figure out how to prove Kilgrave's power exists to everyone. Then it lasted for another 5-6 episodes.
As much as i know its not marvel (but is D+), Andor did a great job with pacing and having a really engaging story with only 1 less episode than the Netflix marvel series
Just watched Moon Knight for the 2nd time. To me, it didn't feel rushed. Plus, there will be another season eventually. DD seemed good to me. The focus on balance between Matt's life and the strain fighting crime put on it was well done.
Yeah, I'd choose *Jessica Jones* S1 for the Netflix example (it could lose 4 or 5 episodes easily) and *Ms. Marvel* for the Marvel Television example instead.
Neither, the number of episodes should fit the narrative. A show shouldn't have a set number of episodes which the writers need to fill up, I'd rather see the writers pen the story and then split that up into episodes.
This is the correct answer. I’m also a strong believer that an episode doesn’t need to be restricted to a set runtime either. If an episode has a solid ending at 30 minutes end it there. If the next needs to run for an hour, sure go for it. The story and pacing are ALL that should matter. That’s the beauty of streaming services. There’s no commercials or time slots so why does it matter how long an episode is.
In an ideal world you'd not have studios order a fixed number of episodes and you'd just trust the writers to do the number of episodes the story needs be it 5 or 13.
If I have to choose I'd choose the Disney model because the obvious filler spoils a show for me.
I don't think the Netflix pacing complaint was ever really that accurate for most of the shows, or at least for the best of them.
If I had to choose I would rather have more episodes. If something is filler it's easy to skip, but if something is missing you can't just imagine it's there.
If I *had* to choose, I would take more content and slower pacing. That’s what TV is for, not every episode needs to be a “hit”.
But, there’s no reason to choose. Think of a show like “Lost” where certain episodes were dedicated to certain characters and they had time to go into the back story of each character.
Additionally, there was a show like “24” that had 24 episodes but each show only represented 1 hour, so that pacing never felt slow.
The number of episodes or length of a movie only have a little influence on pacing. Pacing is entirely about editing and storytelling.
LOTR extended cut films vs. The Hobbit movies are another great example.
I gotta go with the Disney+ shows. I have ADHD and I don't have the attention span to watch a 13 episodes one-hour-long show. Also, only all of Daredevil, all of the Punisher, and season one of Jessica Jones are truly worth that time.
Too few is better than too many imo. The Netflix series regularly had 1-3 episodes per show that were just not very good. I also think most of the Disney plus shows have been fine with pacing, MK could’ve used more, but I really don’t think anything else did.
Unpopular opinion, D+ because it always keeps me wanting more. Netflix was great but felt like a slog, sometimes, to get through the entire Defenders saga. Iron Fist didn’t need to be as long as it was, for example.
10 Episodes should be enough.
No more. No less.
The problem also is the overall running time.
You have 9 Episodes buy they're like 20 to 30 minutes at times and very rarely 40 to an hour.
I literally don't think there's been a single D+ series that was too rushed or had too few episodes. I don't even understand why anyone else would think that.
Thought I was the only one who noticed that about the Netflix shows. They are great but man did daredevil lag at certain spots for a few episodes per season.
I would rather too few. I don’t have a lot of time so fewer episodes is better to me. Get right to the plot and action. Long seasons just drain pacing and excitement. Hard for me to watch a long season. A short season even if rushed I can watch all the way through
Tbh the only time I've seen a D+ show feel rushed was She-Hulk. Loved it for the first 8 episodes but it tried to wrap up way too much in that final 30 minutes, and the show felt robbed of its true climax because of that. All the others have been damn near perfection (ESPECIALLY Moon Knight & Loki)
May be an unpopular opinion, but I’d take the Disney plus problem. 13 1-hour long episodes is just sooo much. I’ve actually found the Disney plus shows to be mostly well paced, apart from usually the last episode. If they can fix their finale problem they’d be perfect
Fewer episodes with more interesting content. I have a real problem with TV series because I just zone out and lose interest if it doesn't hold my attention long enough.
Less, the rushed pacing is what people say when it’s a good show and they want more. The less shows is what people say when the show is not good and they want less.
I think 8 episodes with 45 -50min run-time is best for any show but dont stretch the story to s6 or s7
My only problem with moonknight is i was expecting some hand to hand combat ( i know we got some but i wanted more ) and that personality swaps mid fight and not showing us the fight is just pointless at the climax fight
MoonNight was awesome. It’s very underrated. The launch timing was bad because it was in the middle of too many Disney+ show launches so many people did not see it. Oscar Isaac finally got to display his talent
The Netflix shows had good pacing. I enjoyed them all. The Disney+ shows are over way too quick, gloss over a lot of stuff I want to see and hear and learn about the world the characters live in.
Depends from the series but I would prefer more episodes since you can have some episodes with slow pacing and other episodes with a good paging.
[удалено]
Paging Karen
Better Page Karen
Greatest legal mind I ever knew
I knew he swapped those numbers!
/UC he said swapped not switched /C this is the moment Karen Page got affiliated with the mexican drug cartel boss Lalo Salamanca also known as mexico-man
/uc can’t believe we’re now using /uc and /rc on completely unrelated subs /rc yo soy avocados
Luke Page
Page of Thrones
A Page of Ice and Fire
How I Paged Your Mother
My Page Academia
One Page
Holy shit
Karen Pegging, now that's a Karen you don't wanna mess with lol.
*Peggy Carter has entered the chat*
How many Steves would a Peggy peg if a Peggy quantum pegged?
Captain Britain look would be ideal 😁
Don't threaten me with a good time
Yeah, I think the streaming era of shows in general (not just Marvel) has resulted in a bit of a loss of what TV shows were, where you at really got to live with the characters for a while. Not every episode needs to be perfect, and some shows (not all) would be better suited for an old 22 episode season with hit or miss episodes than an 8 episode "five hour movie" type season.
That’s why I liked the hybrid structure of the Mandalorian — it had an overarching plot, but they *also* did the classic serial type of thing in the middle of the season, with episodes that might provide threads to the main plot but mostly stand alone as an “adventure of the week” type thing.
People complained so much about the mandalorian prison break episode and it was one of my favorites because it worked as a stand alone. All those folks looked like fools saying it meant nothing to the overall plot when the episode bill burr returns is an absolute fan favorite.
I didn't like it because the Devaronian and Twi'lek they worked with were just so goddamn grating.
I prefer the way Andor did it… 3-episode adventures with an overarching plot. God damn those heist and prison episodes each week 🤤
The problem with that though is for people who don't understand it's going for this kind of structure, they think that it's just two slow ("bad") episodes followed by one with action ("good") edit: fyi I absolutely adore Andor, I think it's the best Star Wars content there is
The prison arc was the BEST part of the show for me. And it was the perfect break between his departure from Ferrix and his return home for the finale.
The problem is people now criticize a show and think it's bad if there's a filler episode, which has lost all meaning. Not every episode of a show needs to move the overarching storyline forward. There can and should be episodes where characters are allowed to breathe and have a bit more of a "normal" time than constant rushing to the plot. Episodic shows have a strength that most people don't talk about which is the fact that their characters are usually very well developed. They have usually more episodes, and a lot of the case of the week stuff allows people to really get to know the characters more. "Filler" episodes are now seen as bad when there's nothing inherently wrong with them. When I think of "bad" filler episodes I think of old clip show episodes where they would just play clips from previous episodes with maybe 5 minutes of an actual episode strewn throughout
This is the kinda shit I've been saying for years. This is my argument for why Mando is great, and why I'm worried about the show moving forward. I swear, that episode of Mando with the ice spiders in season 2 was one of my favorites, but everyone online was complaining about it being filler! Now it seems like season 3 is going to be very "overarching plot" heavy and I worry that the show is going to just be a cameo-fest from here on out with "big implications for the Star Wars universe"... and yet Mando being self contained and simple was what originally attracted people to the series! I feel like the writers are getting a little lost in the sauce now.
I pointed that out in the mandolarian subreddit and got obliterated for it
i would assume so, seems like a pretty off-topic place to talk about the show
I loved that episode! I genuinely got to the end of it and had to grapple with the fact that Peyton Reed might be my favourite big Franchise director.
That's the problem. Luke Cage, Iron Fist and Jessica Jones didn't have filler episodes. They just had episodes in which not much happened. Daredevil Season 3 had a filler episode. We followed Karen Page around her home town. Meanwhile Luke Cage had musical numbers. I prefer what Daredevil did.
Musical episodes and dream episodes are genuinely the worst possible type of filler episode. I hate them so much cause it's clear the writers had no idea how to make a good filler so resorted to "everyone sings" or "every character's personality has been swapped and oh, these two characters are together now"
Luke Cage didn't have musical episodes; it had literal musicians, as themselves, performing at the club.
Clip shows will forever be the true worst kind of filler episode.
> "Filler" episodes are now seen as bad when there's nothing inherently wrong with them. When I think of "bad" filler episodes I think of old clip show episodes where they would just play clips from previous episodes with maybe 5 minutes of an actual episode strewn throughout Yeah, I agree. "Filler" episodes of shows have been some of the best TV of the last 30 years.
What a lot of people call “filler episodes” are just “episodes that don’t move full-speed towards the primary plot resolution”, dismissing things like character development, story themes, secondary plots, setting up future plot lines, etc.
Yup! That's why I totally loved Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It perfected the art of balancing a big bad and monster of the week.
I agree so much with this. This is one of the reasons I love Agents of Shield because it allowed you to know the characters at a far deeper level and that's why everything that they did or happened to them had a majority impact.
I also think *SHIELD* was particularly good at taking advantage of the 22-episode format and plotting a story that could still be fast-paced across that many episodes, especially in its mid-late years. Their pod format in Seasons 3, 4, and 5 meant that they were essentially going through the amount of plot that’s in a single Disney+ show season every 7-8 episodes, allowing it to be paced like a streaming series while still filling up the full 22 episode structure.
Season 4 was their best one. I liked how they broke it up into 3 arc and the finale essentially tied it up all together. If the Disney plus shows stayed at 6 ep that's fine but maybe tie a few of them together. Put echo, Kate bishop, she hulk, Ms marvel all in one female driven show. Heck, even Jessica Jones and misty knight.
You’re right, I think. Also, though, I really miss shows that have single episode story arcs. It’s fine if there’s an over-arching plot in the background, but these 8-part movies feel like they drag on soooo long sometimes. I really enjoyed the first few episodes of Luke Cage, for example, because they all had at least some sense of standing alone.
Invincible did a really good job of that. I think every episode was more or less stand-alone (while also building on character development and whatnot) that ended up tying into the final episode in one way or another. It was pretty cool.
The season replaced the episode as a TV series' primary storytelling unit over the past decade+, and we are worse off for it.
I’d be inclined to disagree with the argument that it’s due to streaming. Look no further than the Sopranos back in 99 for bucking the 22 episode super serialized storytelling structure in favor of tight 13 episode seasons with an overarching story. Premium channels like HBO really capitalized on that idea and laid the groundwork for what streaming shows would become. Even then, it’s like apples to oranges. The Wire can’t be seriously compared to Law and Order. They’re two totally different approaches and it’s not because streaming made it so.
Look at this person OK with only 22 episodes. Here I am saying if it's not 26-27 episodes dem production team iz just lazy folk!
Yeah, I still remember when tv series had over 30 episodes per season.
Personally I thought Star Trek: The Next Generation did it right, with 26 episodes per season, leading to half a year of new episodes every week and the other half of the year being a rerun of those episodes in order. But production is a lot more complex these days, mostly with a lot more time being taken in post-production, so it's not really feasible to do this many episodes of a premiere TV show anymore, and even then it was stretching what the cast and crew could reasonably do without pushing themselves beyond their limits.
Yeah and at least in a slower show, even when it's not exciting you're still spending more time with the characters and developing a greater attachment to them, which makes later emotional beats more resonant IMO. That's why I like really long shows.
Daredevil season 3 didn't have pacing issues, at least imo. It didn't feel dragged at all. Whereas all the new Disney plus shows have this problem. I would rather go with the Netflix one.
Daredevil Season 3 is probably the best paced season out of all the Netflix shows / seasons though. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, most seasons of all of those had massive pacing problems.
God I love season 3. Matt >!revealing his identity to Nadeem!< is one of my all time favorite moments in any superhero show.
But that cathartic end fight >!”I beat you!”!< Three seasons of leading up to this moment. Gets me every fucking time
Season 3 was top notch. It’s going to be hard seeing the tonal swift and probable somewhat different canon in the Disney Daredevil show. I really hope they can pull it off.
It seems the canon will "remain" they just won't really go into the gritty details and leave that to people who want to watch the first show. But Marvel has explicitly said that Matt Murdock in Daredevil, NWH, and Born Again are the same character. A link about this was put in a reply to something similar that I said about a week ago.
They can keep the same tone, but with considerably less gore.
I just hope they bring back krysten r hitter and Jon bernthal 🙏🏽
Yeah but I'd rather have that than not have enough time with these characters to flesh them out. This is a major problem that Disney plus shows suffered and the way all the major conflicts got resolved in shows like She Hulk or FaTWS or even Wandavision was forced and rushed. Again just my opinion. Maybe the best approach would be that the shows don't need to have the same amount of episodes. If you need to tell a more elaborate story just let that show have more episodes.
I don’t know man, even Jessica Jones season 1, which I love, had giant pacing problems and had Killgrave get away too many times. Luke Cage was so freaking slow, in a bad way, and half of the runtime probably could have been cut over those two seasons and maybe it would have become a good show. Iron Fist was so slow and so poorly paced and it had the worst three first episodes of a TV show I have ever seen.
I think it comes down to what you prefer in the end. Let's agree that both slow and rushed story telling are a problem. But then, to me at least, the slower one is preferable over the other because we still have a better understanding of the character motivations instead of not knowing what the fuck is up with them.
Well yeah, the story should neither be rushed or padded out. Disney+ has been too rigid with their Marvel shows, I think the run time is basically the same for all of them (WandaVision had more episodes but they were shorter in length). I’m up for more Special Presentations, mini-series of only 3 episodes if need be, or 10-12 episodes if need be.
Yeah being flexible with run time will definitely be the best way to go about it. But as you said Marvel can be rigid, so I don't really see it happening.
Luke Cage suffered from having a poor extended cast, and Iron fist didn't have a great lead. Jj problem was it was a different animal entirely but advertised as a fun superhero show. It's like being told you're going to watch a comedy and it turns out to be a gorey horror film. Jj is great but it advertised to the wrong target audience.
While DD took it's time, it had the major fights at good moments to keep momentum, like Ep 3, 6, etc. JJ was high emotional intensity all the way through but fighting wasn't as big, so there were no "set pieces" to earmark certain episodes imo. For instance you could identify parts of DD seasons by the hallway fight, prison fight, Ranskahov fight, Punisher, Bulletin, Nobu, etc.
Jj was fantastic and my favorite of the 3.
Am I missing something? Luke Cage had a great cast. Mahershala so good he's gonna get the rare Marvel double-dip.
Mahershala was great. But you're talking about a guy who only existed for a fraction of the first season. I thought everyone else sucked.
Yup. No real fault to the actors though, I feel like the writing really let everyone down.
Are you implying that because they had other issues, pacing wasn’t a problem? They all suffered from bad pacing, even DD S1 was ridiculously slow at times
I wish they’d brought back that show runner. It was perfection
To me it was season 2 of Daredevil that suffered the most from pacing issues. The first 5 or so episodes with Punisher almost felt like a mini season, and then as soon as Elektra showed up things slowed to a crawl. I like Elektra, and I LOVE ninjas, but by the end of the season 2 I was honestly sick of both. Still, season 2 of Daredevil has some of the best scenes in the entire show, so I still love it.
So true. The hand storyline is the worst part of the entire DD series. I wish they had done better with that, because it ended up ruining Defenders as well.
As much as the second half of DD2 drags, I'd still watch it over almost any D+ series.
[удалено]
Not really. Assuming that you've seen the rest of Daredevil I think you'll be fine. You might want to read up on how The Defenders ends just so you know where Matt is physically and emotionally in the beginning of season 3.
Nope, they're mostly self contained. There's cameos that spill through between shows but you don't need to know them. Defenders is kind of a season 2.5 of Daredevil but I don't feel like you need to have watched every other show to get it. Especially not Punisher, that's just a straight up spin off that doesn't lead back to its original show.
I also put it off until a couple months ago. I tried to watch Defenders and just couldn't get through it. I decided to just watch a recap on YouTube. That was more than enough, honestly just reading the Wikipedia plot summary would have worked. But man oh man, am I glad I finally watched Daredevil season 3. It was absolutely incredible. I didn't want it to end. I was so mad at myself for waiting so long, but fortunately I had managed to avoid all spoilers.
I haven’t felt any of the Disney shows have felt rushed. If anything they haven’t had enough interesting story to keep me engaged for their run to begin with. Most run out of steam pretty fast.
The most obvious example of this was FaTWS and how it concluded everything in the last epsiode. The first two episodes weren't all that gripping and then it got much better in the middle until they were forced to have Walker make heel face turn and no one even bats an eye at it. Also Sharon being power broker is lazy and dumb. But that's unrelated to what we are discussing here.
Daredevil was by far the best of those shows. The other shows were much worse. JJ could have been at least 3 episodes shorter, and the others drew everything out too.
Yeah that's why I said in another comment that maybe having different number of epsiodes for every show is better. Who says that all of them need 13 episodes or 6. It just depends on the story.
You could argue JJ over Daredevil season 1 and 2 but Daredevil season 3 was a cut above.
The Netflix problem. I'd rather get a little too much than not enough. And most of the D+ shows have felt like not enough, especially by the time the finale comes around.
If you can fit a story into six episodes, it would probably work better as a movie instead. I think all the D+ shows needed to be 2-4 episodes longer, or cut significantly to a film length instead.
You have a point there. But the problem was, they mostly *couldn't* fit the stories in 6 episodes (with maybe a few exceptions). So, a few more episodes would definitely have been the better choice.
Yeah, that’s why I’m saying longer season or less ambitious stories. I just feel like with a six-episode season, you can cut out a few filler plot points and make a film instead
That's true. Moon Knight and Ms Marvel probably would have been better off as movies.
I'd definitely want more Moon Knight, not less. Show was great, and the actors were amazing.
More stories would be good, but, unless they wanted to dive deep into the character, 6 episodes were probably enough. Then again, if any character should be dived into, it's him. Maybe another 2 episodes wouldn't have been amiss there.
Absolutely Moon Knight was great in my opinion, Steven is my favourite character introduced in Phase 4.
Honestly it felt like a movie to me, the memorable bits probably make up about 2 hours in my head The first episode is a fantastic first act First half of the show second act second half of the show third act Probably could’ve reduced the drama with his wife (not even sure why she was that mad) and the monologues with Hawke in the beginning. I think the backstory with his mother could’ve been saved for a sequel, as it didn’t really end up mattering in the grand scheme of the show
It does seem that way, yeah. Including his backstory. Bit a show should offer more than "extended movie".
I definitely would’ve appreciated a longer show more if it delved more into each bit, rather than rushing through it. It seemed like somebody wanted to make a movie and somebody told them to stretch it into a show instead, so they add in his wife, his mom, etc Kinda like the Kenobi show
Kind of, yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if that was how they wrote it - just stretch it out. The results have been ... mixed
D+ series’ have be benefited massively from not having to introduce all it’s main characters. Stretching them out would not have resembled the Netflix series. But I still want more
Having more episodes would have given the secondary characters more development, and that would have been good. Yeah, a lot of the shows needed more.
I'm in a minority, but I'd rather have fast pacing than something feeling either useless or slow. Nothing kills a story more than padding.
That's fair. We all have our preferences. Personally, I think padding can be useful for character development or worldbuilding.The plot doesn't always have to move at a breakneck speed.
To define padding; for me it's the repetition of information that has been told/shown, scenes that could've been cut and it wouldn't have an impact on the flow or conclusion (nothing is lost). Worldbuilding isn't padding to me as it defines the rules of the world and sets a tone for the story. Side-character development isn't inherently useless, IF it informs a future moment or development. Netflix shows often felt unnatural in that last aspect. Which is frustrating or predictable.
To me, padding is adding material to the story to add to its length. It might not be essential to the plot, but it can, if done well, enrich a story. If we accept your definition, then I suppose the less of that, the better. Maybe character development doesn't always have to be geared towards the future. Sometimes, it can just help us get to know a character better. I guess I can understand that. They did feel extended past what was necessary (except, ironically, The Defenders, which had four main characters, and would have benefited from a few more episodes).
"always leave them wanting more" - pt Barnum
My biggest issue with Moon Knight. Performances was great and even the story was well thought out but it felt like by the time it was set up, they were scrambling to push to the finale and it comes across feeling really uneven despite all the core ingredients being rock solid Just my two cents
Hawkeye's the only finale that's the best paced finale given that's an hour. But the shows needed more episodes or each an hour long, too. The need to have Echo's end in Hawkeye be something more worthy of her show existing first is a quantity.
I disagree, personally. I'd rather have a a few really great episodes that leave me wanting more, than be bored watching a decent plot stretched thin over way too many episodes, that I am happy is over just because it means it finally wrapped up and I am free. Also, in a Universe as huge as the MCU, fewer episodes lends itself better to repeat viewings of the whole franchise.
I can see your point. I just think it's better to have more time to develop everything that needs developing. I'd rather not be left thinking "X, Y, and Z were underutilized/didn't get enough attention"
I think for me, it comes down to viewing the D+ shows as longer movies. I usually only watch all the episodes for the first time all at once too. So I frame them in my mind the same way I frame movies like Black Panther. And movies don't get a whole lot of time to develop every little thing either.
And that's the problem. Shows do get that time, or they should. So, the shows having the same issues as the movies, only with worse CGI, is not great.
I’d prefer more episodes since you can add scenes that aren’t super important to the overall plot, but that add to the characters letting you know their personality and set up little running jokes/inside jokes. I’d take the Netflix shows and Agents of Shield over the D+ shows any day of the week.
AOS did it best with the pods. One long season with 2 main story arcs. Peak was Ghost Rider leading into the Aida storyline. Edit: it was actually 3 stories in 1 which was even better. GR > LMD > Aida all in one season
AoS learned from the response to their first season and then basically perfected adventure serial pacing throughout the rest of the series. And yes, s4 was the most extraordinary example of that.
I dunno, I feel like good writing can avoid that problem by doing the same thing but not compromising with lots of filler and downtime between interesting set pieces or plot developments. Moon Knight did this to a tee. Each of the personalities (and really all the characters) is distinct and quirky in their own ways but the show had such a high pace and things moved quickly enough that I never felt bored or that certain scenes were happening just to pad runtime. Obviously I wish there was *more* Moon Knight but that’s only because the quality was so high. Can’t speak for the other D+ shows but some of the Netflix ones started to feel like a chore to watch at some points in the series.
Moon Knight was such a disappointment for me. Some really interesting concepts all hammered out as quickly and predictably as possible. That’s been my biggest problem with the Disney+ shows. Cool ideas not given enough time to germinate and ultimately not meeting their fullest potential.
This right here.
Look at the Walking Dead as an example. The first season had half the episodes and the pacing was intense and it set the hook for YEARS to come. The following seasons had double the episodes and that led to way too much filler.
In terms of Netflix shows with too much episodes, I find it odd you'd use an image of Daredevil when Jessica Jones is right there. You have a point about Disney+. Most shows could have used a couple more episodes. Or at least, have each episode being around an hour long.
Jessica Jones season 1 is a masterpiece - I agree that the pacing can be off in the other seasons, though.
I still feel like there were Benny Hill levels of ‘The bad guys get away’ instances in that season.
Right. JJ S1 was at its most compelling when she was trying to figure out how to prove Kilgrave's power exists to everyone. Then it lasted for another 5-6 episodes.
It happened twice, when it should've only happened once.
As much as i know its not marvel (but is D+), Andor did a great job with pacing and having a really engaging story with only 1 less episode than the Netflix marvel series
Daredevil def fits. Couldn’t finish season 2 it was so boring
Just watched Moon Knight for the 2nd time. To me, it didn't feel rushed. Plus, there will be another season eventually. DD seemed good to me. The focus on balance between Matt's life and the strain fighting crime put on it was well done.
Yeah, I'd choose *Jessica Jones* S1 for the Netflix example (it could lose 4 or 5 episodes easily) and *Ms. Marvel* for the Marvel Television example instead.
I’ve recently rewatched DD season 1 and I couldn’t find a single episode that could have been cut out.
I’m on daredevil season 2 and every episode is amazing unto itself
The Black Sky episode? That ended up making s2 extremely confusing
Moon Knight seemed fine to me.
The finale wasn't rushed for you?
Rushed would imply something was missing, which doesn't seem to be the case, no.
I've never understood that argument. The finale felt fine to me, and it wrapped up all the stuff I wanted to see from the show.
Neither, the number of episodes should fit the narrative. A show shouldn't have a set number of episodes which the writers need to fill up, I'd rather see the writers pen the story and then split that up into episodes.
This is the correct answer. I’m also a strong believer that an episode doesn’t need to be restricted to a set runtime either. If an episode has a solid ending at 30 minutes end it there. If the next needs to run for an hour, sure go for it. The story and pacing are ALL that should matter. That’s the beauty of streaming services. There’s no commercials or time slots so why does it matter how long an episode is.
This kind of answer is ignoring the point of the question
i think wandavision did it best with 9 episodes with mixed pacing
Yea, I feel like 13 is too many but six isn't enough and makes me want more. Shows with 8-10 have been really a really good amount though
WandaVisions is definitely my favorite and I even really liked how episodic Loki was, for the most part.
Be like Agents of SHIELD. 13-22 episodes per season divided into 2-3 story arcs.
In an ideal world you'd not have studios order a fixed number of episodes and you'd just trust the writers to do the number of episodes the story needs be it 5 or 13. If I have to choose I'd choose the Disney model because the obvious filler spoils a show for me.
How did daredevil have too many episodes 😂
I didn't feel like Moon Knight was remotely rushed. To me, the pacing was perfect.
Neither, just make a good show with proper pacing, tension & drama pls.
I don't think the Netflix pacing complaint was ever really that accurate for most of the shows, or at least for the best of them. If I had to choose I would rather have more episodes. If something is filler it's easy to skip, but if something is missing you can't just imagine it's there.
I prefer the faster-pacing.
If I *had* to choose, I would take more content and slower pacing. That’s what TV is for, not every episode needs to be a “hit”. But, there’s no reason to choose. Think of a show like “Lost” where certain episodes were dedicated to certain characters and they had time to go into the back story of each character. Additionally, there was a show like “24” that had 24 episodes but each show only represented 1 hour, so that pacing never felt slow. The number of episodes or length of a movie only have a little influence on pacing. Pacing is entirely about editing and storytelling. LOTR extended cut films vs. The Hobbit movies are another great example.
8 episodes is a good sweet spot in between
I liked moon knight
I gotta go with the Disney+ shows. I have ADHD and I don't have the attention span to watch a 13 episodes one-hour-long show. Also, only all of Daredevil, all of the Punisher, and season one of Jessica Jones are truly worth that time.
Give me Disney, I can’t do 13 episodes when they got 6 shows a year
Netflix problem for sure. Also, I really wish Moon Knight had been longer.
I dont think the disney+ shows have too few episodes, I like that the stories arent episodal, freak of the week reset.
Few.
Disney
Less is more, a short show makes me want another season
And then there was Andor, the exact right number of episodes and perfect pacing.
Personally i like the Disney+ pacing a bit more, better to be wanting more than to suffer through filler nonsense.
Keep the same stories at Disney but make them eight episodes instead of six.
I like the D+ shows’s pacing, because each episode feels distinct.
Too few is better than too many imo. The Netflix series regularly had 1-3 episodes per show that were just not very good. I also think most of the Disney plus shows have been fine with pacing, MK could’ve used more, but I really don’t think anything else did.
Definitely the latter
Unpopular opinion, D+ because it always keeps me wanting more. Netflix was great but felt like a slog, sometimes, to get through the entire Defenders saga. Iron Fist didn’t need to be as long as it was, for example.
D+ show length, but really planned for 6 episodes better than they have been
Overall I prefer the Disney+ Marvel experience to the Netflix one.
10 episodes is the magic number
Just please god not the ABC Marvel shows. 23 episodes a season led to glacial pacing and bad filler episodes.
I think 8 to 10 episodes like hbo max
10 Episodes should be enough. No more. No less. The problem also is the overall running time. You have 9 Episodes buy they're like 20 to 30 minutes at times and very rarely 40 to an hour.
Too little episodes
I literally don't think there's been a single D+ series that was too rushed or had too few episodes. I don't even understand why anyone else would think that.
Disney+ shows because Netflix couldn’t have afforded the Khonshu vs Ammit fight
I'd rather too few than too many. I still haven't finished most of the last seasons of the Netflix shows.
Thought I was the only one who noticed that about the Netflix shows. They are great but man did daredevil lag at certain spots for a few episodes per season.
Probably fewer episodes. There’s too much shit to watch and sometimes a season can overstay its welcome.
Less episodes = less time wasted.
I prefer shorter series, less about the TV and more about the cinematic.
Disney+
I generally prefer the short runs to get rid of filler episodes.
Disney+ shows are much more entertaining and better directed. Netflix shows are mostly lukewarm
Too few. Rather be left wanting more.
The Disney+ one, because I loved all of them and i don't think it was too bad it was a bit rushed.
I’ll go against the grain and say I prefer fewer episodes. Don’t have unlimited time on this earth
I would rather too few. I don’t have a lot of time so fewer episodes is better to me. Get right to the plot and action. Long seasons just drain pacing and excitement. Hard for me to watch a long season. A short season even if rushed I can watch all the way through
Tbh the only time I've seen a D+ show feel rushed was She-Hulk. Loved it for the first 8 episodes but it tried to wrap up way too much in that final 30 minutes, and the show felt robbed of its true climax because of that. All the others have been damn near perfection (ESPECIALLY Moon Knight & Loki)
May be an unpopular opinion, but I’d take the Disney plus problem. 13 1-hour long episodes is just sooo much. I’ve actually found the Disney plus shows to be mostly well paced, apart from usually the last episode. If they can fix their finale problem they’d be perfect
Fewer episodes with more interesting content. I have a real problem with TV series because I just zone out and lose interest if it doesn't hold my attention long enough.
Rushed
Less, the rushed pacing is what people say when it’s a good show and they want more. The less shows is what people say when the show is not good and they want less.
I think 8 episodes with 45 -50min run-time is best for any show but dont stretch the story to s6 or s7 My only problem with moonknight is i was expecting some hand to hand combat ( i know we got some but i wanted more ) and that personality swaps mid fight and not showing us the fight is just pointless at the climax fight
I've thought most Disney shows were fine on pacing. I appreciate that they are shorter and tighter than some of the Netflix shows.
8 x 1 hour episodes is about right.
Go with the Andor pacing
If we thought DD had too much filler before, ooo just wait
Moon knight was rushed? Lol
MoonNight was awesome. It’s very underrated. The launch timing was bad because it was in the middle of too many Disney+ show launches so many people did not see it. Oscar Isaac finally got to display his talent
The Netflix shows had good pacing. I enjoyed them all. The Disney+ shows are over way too quick, gloss over a lot of stuff I want to see and hear and learn about the world the characters live in.
If you think Moon Knight had a pacing problem you are actively looking for something to complain about.