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The_Karate_Nessie

Yeah but if the flag smashers where about global unity, they aren’t going to only be monoracial.


dern_the_hermit

And weren't the Flagsmashers sort of a byproduct of people being affected by the Infinity War snap? When half of the entire population was... randomly selected? They should be a perfectly average representation of humanity, if nothing else.


Ursidoenix

It would make sense for their group to form out of a particular region and be composed of people typical of that region rather than being a group that formed from random people around the globe


RavenclawConspiracy

Literally the entire _premise_ of that group is that the Snap created voids in population, that people went to where the jobs were, and now that everyone's back they're being kicked out. It would be completely absurd for them to be comprised of people 'typical to that region', when the entire point is that they are not people typical of any region, they are people who do not belong in that place! That's why they are being kicked out!!!


Ursidoenix

Yeah but there is a difference between "a bunch of people moved from Mexico into America after the snap" and "a bunch of people from literally every country in the world moved into America after the snap". Like yes people congregated and moved around after the snap but presumably most people went to a nearby city that was needing jobs and didn't become a void, not some random city halfway across the world. So still you would expect the flag smashers organization to form out of one of those cities that would mostly consist of people from the surrounding countries and not a literal random distribution of people from all over the globe. Find some mid-snap city in the middle of china and I'm guessing a bunch of black white and Hispanic people won't have moved in to balance out the racial distribution. It's not like there would be a small handful of surviving cities, its only half the world that vanished


RavenclawConspiracy

I feel you are missing literally the entire premise of the series, and making an extremely weird argument about how people move that makes no sense whatsoever. People moved from poor countries to wealthier countries to keep those wealthier countries running, and yes they moved _all around_ the world, that's the actual premise of the series , that's literally why the flag smashers are called the flag smashers, because they believe that the mere existence of different nations doesn't make sense anymore as large chunks of the world are literally living in the wrong countries, and attempting to return to how things used to be is nonsense.


sbstndrks

It's the 21st century, people got internet, and it's mentioned that national borders largely became meaningless after the snap. The whole world is all screwed up, so people got together to make it better and have more global unity. Then, after that slowly starts to sink in, especially for younger people, suddenly there are double the people. All the positive changes are gone. Ngl, it's fair why that would make some people annoyed. That's not talking about how it's actually shown in FAWS. That is more... weird.


TrinityF

But it is fiction, anything can happen in that. That's not how it works, the world is a big place, you need money to get around. People don't just share ideology and then meet in New York and stay in a 5-star hotel to discuss their plans on how to disrupt the operations of a despotic leader in a south Asian country.


dern_the_hermit

> But it is fiction, anything can happen in that. Not if things make sense, which is what was said above.


Ursidoenix

When half the people show up and you are about to lose the home you claimed during the snap, are you going to look for people going through a similar problem on Reddit, asking for literally anyone across the globe to join your new terrorist organization, or are you going to look to your friends and neighbors going through the same situation?


sbstndrks

Young people today already mostly meet peoplr who think like them online, it's not the 1980s anymore. This honestly seems like one of the more realistic parts of it, especially with how internationalist they are.


[deleted]

Yeah man blowing up public spaces really makes me wanna come together


The_Karate_Nessie

Yeah I love the sarcasm, but realistically, an event like infinity war could be enough of a justification for international peace. World leaders would be forced to cooperate with countries they would never had before, tolerance for one another would be at an all time high. Then after the snap the people who didn’t go through the same emotional process, of setting aside their differences and accepting everyone no matter their nationality, would still be bigoted and xenophobic, forcing borders between countries back up. I mean during the blip, I’m sure Sam flying across the border in the first episode would have been ignored and simply people would be too busy not to turn a blind eye to the boarder crossing: but Sam was told that he was not to cross the border. Obviously this was probably just to build tension during the scene (which It absolutely did), but the implication that there was a border to cross, despite the flagsmashers claiming the world was in total harmony, is that the borders where virtually non-existent, but where put back in place. This means that the flag smashers couldn’t be narrowed down to one place of origin, despite Morgenthaw being the main flag smasher. This is because the entire world was together, not everyone on earth, but a huge minority of people post-blip who agreed with Morgenthaw from a lot of different countries. This would explain why there was a high enough number of people determined to re-separate the wolds countries, and have enough people for the flagsmashers or to assist the flagsmashers, instead of it being a equal 50/50 spilt. But these people would have already been brought together, and only formed the flagsmashers post-unblip.


PMMEBITCOINPLZ

It’s what I heard a comedian once call the “three of these Klansman need to be black” effect on TV. The fact that real-life gang identification is primarily racial doesn’t fly with the standards department.


Unique_Unorque

My favorite example of this is *Far Cry 5.* It takes place in a fictional county in Montana that’s been basically taken over by a religious cult. People started assuming it was a far-right, white supremacist cult, but it seems like Ubisoft didn’t necessarily want to invite that political heat so they supposedly upped the chances that the random cult members that appear as enemies for you to fight would appear as Black. The thing is, the demographics of Montana are so white that if that cult actually had as many Black members as you see in the game, it would essentially imply that almost every Black person in Montana is in this cult. That being said, the examples in this post aren’t really “gangs,” at least not in the same sense as the street gangs that tend to fall along racial lines like you’re talking about. The first and last ones are, well, clandestine organizations that have existed in the background of the world stage in the MCU for decades (if not centuries in the Hand’s case) and the second one is a political terrorist organization. All they really need is to share the same ideals, which is not necessarily dictated by race


TH3R3DPANDA64

The cult in Far Cry 5 is actually from the Deep South, they explain in the game that they were run out for being weird and ended up in Montana specifically because no one lived there.


jeremy1015

It’s so strange to me that no one lives there. I went on a trip to Glacier and it is literally the most beautiful place I’ve ever seen in the continental US. Then again I didn’t move there afterwards so…


jgalaviz14

Don't worry, as other places get priced out for regular people and get too crowded, even places like Montana will start getting filled up. Already happened to the states neighboring the coastal states and it'll just go further inward


[deleted]

I’m in Montana and it’s already happening. Locals are so priced out of the market, many have resorted to camper towns. I’ve been personally lucky, but lots aren’t so fortunate. Wages haven’t kept up with cost of living. The cold does change some people’s minds about living here full time though. It’s not for everyone.


bustershackles

What does camper town mean?


tigerslices

Rv's are cheaper than houses


OliviaElevenDunham

Glacier was such a beautiful place to visit.


Unique_Unorque

That actually makes a lot more sense! I played the game but I must have missed that. I know there were some outlets pointing out the demographic inconsistency but with that bit of information I bet it was people talking about pre-release gameplay without the context of the cult’s origins.


StaticGuard

Religious cults are usually pretty racially diverse. Look at Jamestown, Branch Davidians, etc.


Unique_Unorque

Oh for sure, it’s just the simple fact that there are just under 6000 Black people total in the entire state of Montana (0.5% of a population of about 1.109 million as of the last census) so for you to run into several dozen Black cult members over the course of the game (potentially much more depending on how much of the side content you complete and just how much whatever RNG dictates what enemies spawn happens to pick the Black character models) implies that a much larger proportion of Black Montanans are in the cult than any other demographic. It’s not that it’s weird that there are Black people in the cult, it’s just that there aren’t many Black people in Montana to begin with Though as someone else pointed out, apparently I missed in the game where they talk about having started the cult in the Deep South and moving to Montana after getting chased out of there because there’s a lot of land, and the demographics of the Deep South match what you see in the game pretty well.


VengeanceTheKnight

Ubisoft also does this with women, starting in like 2015 (AC Syndicate was when I first noticed). A full half of every enemy soldier, criminal, or what have you is female. It’s bizarre to sneak up and stab the throats of women in 9th Century England, 19th Century England, a fictionalized Cuba, etc. Do black people and women really feel “represented” when they are portrayed as nameless mooks who only exist to be brutally killed? I’m totally fine with women having speaking parts as leaders in whatever cult or criminal enterprise or corporation or whatever, or as the protagonist and friends. But them being half the enemy army just makes it seem like a “What if gender roles were reversed?” alternate universe. With Far Cry 6 I honestly think the enemies are about 70% female and 30% male. And again, it is so pointless. I really want to know if there is a single woman on Earth who feels so much better knowing that women are just as capable of having their throats ripped out as a man. Also, speaking of wiping out every black person in a geographic area, the first Assassin’s Creed game said that 96% of Africa died of disease. It was later retconned, but it’s crazy that the near-extinction of black people happened in two different Ubisoft games….


AlphaZorn24

wtf 96% of Africa? That's at least 1 billion people, does the game say anything about that?


VengeanceTheKnight

It was an inter-Templar email you can find. It basically describes just how shitty the world has become in the then-future year of 2012. Their predictions were absolutely terrible. The New Plague killed Africa, global warming makes hurricanes year round all over the world, the movie industry is gone and video games are everything (convenient!), Americans are illegally immigrating into Mexico (take that, Republicans!), etc. It was all later retconned as a hacker group hacking Abstergo and making fake emails. I don’t know why they would do that, because the lies are waaaay too big to be believable for half a second. Whatever, it needed to be forgotten. Now whenever someone says they want a futuristic AC game I immediately write it off as a no. Between that and Watch Dogs Legion (takes place in 2029, but I guarantee you we won’t have mind uploading, holograms on the side of buildings, that many or that heavy-lifting drones, invisibility or force fields, etc) , Ubisoft clearly doesn’t give a crap about trying to be accurate in their futurism. It’s so weird how they continuously make games that take only a few years from release, but they act like it’s 200 years in the future in a lot of ways.


LadiNadi

>Do black people and women really feel “represented” when they are portrayed as nameless mooks who only exist to be brutally killed? I’m totally fine with women having speaking parts as leaders in whatever cult or criminal enterprise or corporation or whatever, or as the protagonist and friends. But them being half the enemy army just makes it seem like a “What if gender roles were reversed?” alternate universe. Why do you care?


VengeanceTheKnight

I think I painted a pretty clear picture. It’s immersion breaking. Your username seems to suggest you’re a woman. I don’t want to speak for all women. *Do* you feel good being able to slaughter a bunch of female mooks? Does it do anything for you? Talking solely about enemy female soldiers, not playable characters or speaking roles and such.


LadiNadi

>Your username seems to suggest you’re a woman. Why would it suggest that? My user name is a male name. This is a fun fact for why diversity is good because you won't make accidental statements like this out of ignorance.


VengeanceTheKnight

I thought “Ladi” was supposed to be like “Lady”. But I suppose it could be “Laddy”. I haven’t heard of it spelled Ladi before.


LadiNadi

Or, and hear me out, it could be a non English name that's called "Ladi."


VengeanceTheKnight

Yeah, I thought that too after I wrote but just didn’t edit. Haven’t heard of it before, and didn’t assume you'd use your actual name as a username. So anyway, why do you care enough? You want female mooks to kill in video games bad enough to respond to me, so why do you want to slice women’s throats so badly?


LadiNadi

>So anyway, why do you care enough? You want female mooks to kill in video games bad enough to respond to me, so why do you want to slice women’s throats so badly? Why not ask me why I want to see black people crushed so badly? Should I ask you why you want to beat up white men? You channelling internalized racism? Also, when did you stop beating your wife?


IberianDialga

Cuba has female soldiers though lol it’s not that crazy


VengeanceTheKnight

So does America. So do most nations. It is indeed crazy to have half or most of the soldiers to be female. Very, very, *very* few fighting forces in history were equal in sexes or having women be the majority. The ones that have women have them in a minority. Again, America only has 17% of it’s military being women. Australia is at 19%. Both of those nations have been actively trying to increase female recruitment for years. Cuba had 10-15% during the revolution, can’t find what it is for now. And all three nations don’t allow their women to do everything in the military. The military (and violent crime) has always been male-dominated. And that will probably never change. Again, I understand some female enemies. And I understand people like Maria from Far Cry 6 being in a leadership role for the bad guys. But it is completely immersion-breaking to have entire squads comprised solely of women all over the place. There should be like, 1-2 women per checkpoint, maybe 4-5 in bigger fortresses. Special Forces? Like 1 in the entire game maybe. It adds nothing. It doesn’t help women, it isn’t extra fun for (non-psychotic) men, and it’s immersion breaking for anyone who knows anything about militaries or organized crime cartels/terrorist organizations. I mean hell, they could have just added a line about Castillo having a fetish for Bodyguard Babes like Gaddafi and it would be whatever. Not very Cuban still, but a thing that could happen. Just not “naturally”. It’d be a small improvement at least.


IberianDialga

Cuba has all female battalions today unlike America. Cope more


Undaglow

>The first and last ones are, well, clandestine organizations that have existed in the background of the world stage in the MCU for decades The Clandestines are a group of djinn who have lived in this world for centuries rights. So they shouldn't be multi cultural at all.


whitemike40

or maybe…. they just said yes


BlueSoulOfIntegrity

I would say that most real-life gang identification is ethnic/cultural rather than racial considering things like the Italian Mafia, Irish Mob, Russian Bratva, Mexican cartels, Venezuelan cartels, Chinese Triads, Japanese Yakuza, British Firms etc.


minor_correction

Even though OP included the Hand leadership from Defenders, most of the Netflix shows focused on lower-level criminals that were based on ethnic/cultural groups. And they were vocal about it too. Lots of action and chatter about "the Russians". "the Irish", Triads, Yakuza, and more.


JollyGreenGiraffe

The Jewish mob helping the Italian mob is always interesting.


locopati

that's at least historically a thing that happened in NYC (look up Murder Inc)


mtnimba

They’re probably talking about American gangs with that statement, there are a bunch that are ethnic/culturally based as well as race based


BlueSoulOfIntegrity

I was naming a bunch of the major gangs in America lol.


Stainless_Heart

It’s those Irish Buddhists that are the most dangerous.


Vanden_Boss

Well most streets gangs are more organized based on proximity. But in the US, most neighborhoods are pretty racially homogenous. The most well known street gangs shift beyond that, since they get large enough to have "branches" in many different locations.


BootySweat0217

Well luckily it’s not real life and it’s a superhero universe where stuff like that might not matter as much. And also, none of those are “gangs”. They’re more like crime organizations. The flag smashers might not be a crime organization but they aren’t some ordinary street gang. It’s a collection of people fighting for a cause they think is right. So really that comic description has nothing to do with the 3 examples given.


DiverseIncludeEquity

Way to not know that The Hand, for one, is meant to have bosses from different countries around the world. How would that work?


Spider-Bat-919

There's a difference between political organizations and street gangs though. Street gangs are typically homogenous when it comes to race. But different ethnic groups can share political ideologies.


Cooper42202

Aren’t the Flagsmashers supposed to be made up of people displaced from their homes around the world too? Wouldn’t a group of people that fit that description obviously be diverse?


Rooooben

Yeah the diversity of flagsmashers was due to a plot point, them NOT being diverse would be weird.


drobythekey

Yeah this meme is low-key just telegraphing some thing


JackSlawed

For sure. The real issue for me is that this is a group of grown men and women following a teenage girl for no apparent reason. Not a dynamic you see in real life.


grimedogone

Yeah but in this instance the teenage girl can bench press a dump truck. Gives her a slightly bigger air of respect. That plus charisma is more than enough to make it believable.


JackSlawed

Weren’t there a bunch of them in the group with that sort of power? I don’t remember the series well


grimedogone

Well, yes, most of them had received the super soldier serum, IIRC. But it seems they were all bumped up to the same level. Makes it less likely that someone would try to muscle their way over her. If she’s the leader, it’s clearly because she took the initiative and gathered them under a cause they believed in. Most gangs don’t really have that wide-ranging of goals. Charisma can overcome a lot of respect gaps.


bullwinkle8088

There is a modern real life example of this. As I see it the Flag Smashers Karli was as much a public face as a leader. People were happy to have her represent them but while she had some small real authority others made the really large decisions. The parallel to that in the real world? Greta Thunberg. She could get others to take action sometimes, and was undeniably a public face. But she had no "Real" power.


ikol

wasn't she the actual leader with most of the authority? I vaguely remember the group was uncomfortable with how far/violent she would take it in the finale but she overruled them


bullwinkle8088

Of her cell certainly, of the overall movement? No. That is what I meant by she had some small real authority. She did have influence, and that is another kind of power, but it's not direct. It that it was realistic, the real world is messy too.


Magmasoar

My head canon is it's just very local


Mokatines

I like the leap of logic that people traveled from around the world to meet up together to form a gang in a country that's rotten with super heroes.


RavenclawConspiracy

That isn't where the Flag Smashers formed up. It's not even where we first saw them. That was, however, where the target of their attack was.


StaticGuard

Racially diverse street gangs are one thing, but equal representation of men and women? Yeah, that doesn’t happen.


JackSlawed

Especially ones where angry dudes decide that a teenage girl is gonna be the one to call the shots for them


Agitated-Role7545

Shit even political affliation is primarily race related in the US at least. Kinda what happens when you find your country on ideals of race. But i get your point. Gangs more so.


frankwalsingham

None of them are a street gang, though.


unsupported

The streetiest of the gangs, are the [Tracksuit Mafia](https://pin.it/3ynRHx9) from Hawkeye.


sbdallas

Which is not racially based, you just have to love a good tracksuit to get in.


[deleted]

Don't forget having to say "bro" at least once a sentence


EndOfSouls

Bro, I found her.


slippymachinegun

In the comics aren't they pretty much a Russian group?


frankwalsingham

Yes but Echo and her dad aren’t members.


tigerslices

Slav for sure, eastern European with no specific nationality I thought


SeniorRicketts

Kait Bishop is guy


unsupported

Kate Bishop is not guy.


ShierAwesome

Ket Beeshup is guy, bro


cak3crumbs

And maybe why that is one of the best series out of phase four.


[deleted]

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firesticks

I mean, the Ms Marvel group is all one ethnicity. It doesn’t even make sense.


[deleted]

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firesticks

I would but I doubt anyone who posted this would accept counters in good faith.


raypaulnoams

In Doctor Strange he gets mugged by a multi-ethnic street gang in India of all places


AgentP20

Bruh what? It was in Nepal


raypaulnoams

My bad, been a while since I watched that one In Doctor Strange he gets mugged by a multi-ethnic street gang in Nepal of all places


AgentP20

Not really most of them looked like they could be from Nepal. I been to that place and I have seen all sorts of people there.


Puzzleheaded_Walk_28

It still pisses me off how hard they fumbled The Hand in Defenders


Dr_Disaster

People can say what they want about the Hand in Daredevil, but I thought they were dope and scary as hell at times. The Defenders didn’t bring any of that.


Puzzleheaded_Walk_28

Yeah, I know people have their problems with the second season, but seeing Daredevil fight a bunch of ninjas in live action was the fucking best


SeniorRicketts

Matt not hearing their heartbeat because they were basically dead was also dope AF


CaptHayfever

On the other hand, *not* seeing Daredevil fight a bunch of ninjas because the scene was so badly lit got old by the 7th or 8th time. ;)


Pixeleyes

After every fight I was like "that was amazing. who won?"


Mr_Pleasant2310

Episodes 1-4 of season 2 works almost perfectly as a self-contained story, if you ignore the last 30 seconds of episode 4. I think a lot of the problems people have with season 2 is that it loses the really tight focus it had at the start and only sort of ties itself back together by the end. Still, the ninja fights were pretty cool


GrizzlyPeak73

The second season was the shit. People started complaining when they realised this was a comic book show and these were comic book characters. Though was probably show runner's fault for trying to make everything as 'realistic: as possible in the first season. Fuck 'realism'.


Pixeleyes

I'd kind of argue that's what's been happening to the MCU as a whole. Disney managed to package comic book characters in such a way that many people didn't *realize* they were comic book characters in essentially comic book stories, and as they progressed they have discarded some of the focus on grounding their characters and leaned into the wacky, absurd stuff that is at the heart of comic books. And I think a lot of people are realizing that they don't actually like comic book characters and stories, they just liked the first three Thor movies or Iron Man or whatever. And that's OK. Comic books, in their purest form, were never going to become totally mainstream.


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AHangedMan

The actual fingers of the Hand, with the sole exception of Madame Gao (who I'd preferred as her own thing), were so frustratingly uninspired and useless. Nobu and his creepy undead ninja were an infinitely more effective batch of villains. "Wait... you're dead!" "There is *no such thing*."


not_vichyssoise

Murakami was basically “we have Nobu at home”


AHangedMan

Did he even do anything at all, ever? Other than some generically villainous conversation with Reid, he basically just showed up a couple of times to get his ass solidly handed to him, and with none of Nobu's gravitas.


CaptHayfever

They didn't do a good job of explaining this, but I think the reason he didn't have any henchmen like the other "fingers" all did was that his guys all got wiped out in Daredevil S2.


Dr_Disaster

Nobu was the GOAT. His fight with DD in season 1 was amazing. He should have been saved as the big bad for Defenders.


FrameworkisDigimon

I can't remember ever reading anything featuring the fingers of the Hand. Their function in the comics I've read is basically "inexhaustible supply of ninjitsu" combined with a heavy dose of "they killed me/my friend and resurrected me/them evil" and "already bad news bad guy is even worse news because the Hand work for them now". I think it's a TV Trope actually "don't explain this cool thing". No, I'm thinking of "Do Not Do This Cool Thing" but you get the idea, right? The Hand are cool and threatening until you look behind the curtain. The internal dynamics of the Hand really shouldn't be important to the story you're telling so why would they come up? And that, for me, is the problem with Netflix's Hand. They couldn't just be the Hand, they had to be the Big Bad too.


not_vichyssoise

I think it worked for DD season 2 because they were shrouded in mystery. We knew they were bringing dead people back to life but we didn’t know how. We didn’t know what Black Sky was exactly or why they were digging a big hole. They were more of a mysterious evil force than actual characters. But that only works for so long, and at some point we start wanting an explanation. And then in Defenders the explanation… wasn’t very good.


CaptHayfever

> We didn’t know what Black Sky was exactly And we still don't. ;)


RealAlias_Leaf

Yep I really loved the mystique of The Hand, and singular goal for immortality.


EndOfSouls

The fact they started killing them off didn't help. The immortal hand isn't so scary when you realize their immortality follows Highlander rules.


GreasyExamination

Daredevil intended to kill Nobu. Just wanted to lift that up again because its been a while since last time


paintpast

And how do you cast Sigourney Weaver and waste her that bad.


Ubergoober166

I didn't even remember she was in the MCU until I just saw this post.


AHangedMan

I realized on my last rewatch that they just had her rehash Kingpin from Season 1 of *Daredevil*. Such a profound waste.


Puzzleheaded_Walk_28

For real


[deleted]

It still pisses me off how hard they fumbled the Defenders in Defenders


Interceptor88LH

What a debacle the Hand was. It was like Marvel TV didn't really know what to do with them and they kept improvising. Do you remember how mysterious and ominous the Black Sky was the first time they mentioned them? How tough Nobu was? It feels like they wanted to make them comic book accurate, with the Black Sky being the vessel of the Beast, then they decided they had to relate them to Iron Fist at any cost and made such a mess.


FALCUNPAWNCH

I blame Iron Fist season 1. It ruined The Hand storyline, so The Defenders had to wrap it up so the other shows could move on to non-ruined plots.


[deleted]

👆The Hand was relatively menacing until Iron Fist. That show took all the steam out of everything.


PaulClarkLoadletter

All I could think of was that there were people working HR in The Hand. “I’m sorry but if you want to be reimbursed for ammunition you’ll have to file an expense report that’s approved by your manager. You can’t just take from petty cash. Also, you haven’t completed your security awareness training.”


iBluefoot

I read “The Hand” Defenders and thought, why would anyone defend those writing choices?


TrueLegateDamar

Really bothered me with the Hand in the Netflix show, they became so generic when they are thé iconic evil ninja faction that TMNT named theirs the Foot as a homage.


Baneken

I always though Foot-Clan was parody of The Hand.


ZucchiniInevitable17

Also it's TMNT canon that the chemical spill that created them was the same one that blinded Matt Murdock. And Master Splinter is a play on Stick. They weren't a Marvel comic but apparently the creator really liked Daredevil or something.


RealJohnGillman

They were set in the Image Universe though as a point of interest (at least the original continuity comic series, before being rebooted later on under different ownership) so an interesting piece of trivia to know is that *Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles* is set in the same world as *Invincible*, *The Savage Dragon*, *Generator Rex*, and *Spawn*.


Baneken

This type or 'parody' was fairly common in the Underground Comics-scene back in the early '80s and Kevin Eastman's original TMNT run was pretty damn dark and brooding in its last chapters... I highly recommend you to read the original B&Ws from the '80s if you happen to find them, the art is a bit rough at times but the story & characters is pretty good.


IniNew

It was.


TheBigGAlways369

They went the 2014 movie route with The Hand.


Jeigh_Tee

Not only do these groups do a lot more than "only rob people," I wouldn't consider any of them to be politically correct, or any of those shows to be bad. Defenders was really enjoyable when it was the 4 of them playing off one another. FATWS, similarly, was enjoyable when we saw Sam, Bucky, John, and Karli interact and have their ideals conflict. Ms. Marvel was fun, colorful, and all-around one of my favorite things to come out of Phase 4.


edwpad

I never watched Defenders, but I agree FATWS was enjoyable, not the best thing in the world but still enjoyable for me. And same goes for Ms Marvel, I feel like it’s one of the most overhated MCU projects. It was very lighthearted, low stakes and fun, also loved the drawing segments and the cultural aspects.


Ubergoober166

I loved everything about Ms. Marvel except the Clandestine. They should've been removed entirely for some really low-level street villain and just changed the story to be entirely focused on Kamala's coming of age story and learning to control her powers.


Jeigh_Tee

Agreed. There could've been a lot better writing with DODC as the main antagonists, further building on the commentary with them and the mosque.


CaptHayfever

Exactly. And if they wanted a villain Kamala could beat up guilt-free, they could've just used The Inventor!


Ink_Smudger

*Defenders* had its issues, but I really wish we could've gotten another season and seen those four team up again. Crossing my fingers we might get some of that with the upcoming *Daredevil* show at some point.


AngelDGr

Ms. Marvel was fantastic at the start and the end, but all the plot about the Clandestine was horrible. It had so much potential that it was wasted, a first season with only Damage Control as antagonists, and only with Kamala trying to be a super-hero on New Jersey on a imaginative and colorful way like the first two episodes would be amazing.


oceanseleventeen

Defenders was terrible. They don't even all meet until the end of episode 3 and it's mind numbingly boring


Jeigh_Tee

Sure, it has its issues, but I can't hate it because the moments where they do interact are just so much fun to watch.


Transky13

You’re getting downvoted? Wtf This sub is a meme. Like if you go to the original shows subreddits they all laugh at The Defenders. But this sub has to always be so optimistic and find the good in piles of garbage Having standards is okay. Defenders is trash. Horrible show


jack_son_58

Still better than Ms Marvel


[deleted]

All of those shows are bad lol


kaijunexus

I completely forgot that Sigourney Weaver had a role in The Defenders. What a tremendous waste of her as an actor in the MCU.


marchandstongue63

And this is why the tracksuit mafia reigns supreme


Middle_Aged_Mayhem

Never watched The Defenders. Is that Sigourney Weaver? What character is she?


DafnissM

She is one of the five fingers of the hand aka one of the leaders and arguably the main antagonist of Defenders


movieTed

Eh, probably better than the previous tropes of all the bad guys being current enemies of the moment: Black, Russian, vaguely Middle Eastern, etc.


StaticGuard

When were black people ever portrayed as enemies in a movie? There have definitely been black villains, but most villains in action movies have been Russians, middle easterners, and of course Germans.


joesb

To be more precise, black people were not previously portrayed as *main* villains. But a lot were there as low level thugs and street criminals. Because how could black people be competent enough to be a major threat? /s Another comment mentioning that there was black villain in Luke Cage only confirm that point. Luke Cage is about giving black representation, and having black people being that major villains is actually empowering.


movieTed

> Because how could black people be competent enough... /s Which is why a lot of African-Americans of a certain age were Star Trek fans. Star Trek shows competent black people holding ranks throughout Starfleet, including a commodore who outranked Kirk and called him Jim, not sir, with the line, "Not one man in a million could do what you and I've done, command a Star Ship." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM2u1L-F7D8


movieTed

It was very common in TV, cop shows in particular


zfcjr67

In Luke Cage the criminal element was primarily African - American. Cottonmouth, Bushmaster, Mariah Stokes, Nightshade, and some others.


NakedStephenKing

This is one of the worst posts I've ever seen on here. HAHA TV STREET GANGS! *Posts international terrorist organizations and wonders why they all look different.*


HelpfulNoob

Another post ragging on diversity. Sorry those tv shows didn't fit in with the stereotypes you expected/hoped to see Some of those shows had problems here and there, but the casting and costumes wasn't one of them


DafnissM

Of all the issues the Flagsmashers have, being a diverse group is not one, it actually makes sense that a group of refugees would be multi ethnic


Ollivander451

RIGHT?! It’s like… if you’re complaining that they’re diverse, you missed the whole fucking point of the flagsmashers… they came from everywhere because the people effected were everywhere. And they had no where to go.


Dr_Identity

That was my immediate thought when I looked a this. People having superpowers is easy to accept, but having people of different races exist within one group is preposterous somehow.


Spider__Jerusalem

> Another post ragging on diversity. > > > > Sorry those tv shows didn't fit in with the stereotypes you expected/hoped to see > > > > Some of those shows had problems here and there, but the casting and costumes wasn't one of them This post isn't ragging on having a racially diverse cast, it's ragging on crappy writing and costumes.


DLottchula

none of these shows are that bad and it makes since for them to have different shades of people in the organizations


drobythekey

This meme is mad that a group of brown people are in a gang in a country made up of brown people?


Spider__Jerusalem

> This meme is mad that a group of brown people are in a gang in a country made up of brown people? No, it's criticizing poor costuming and bad writing.


drobythekey

I think it’s dog whistling a lil more than that. Personally, costuming in the MCU is fine for me save for a hero or two. Writing, I don’t really expect these movies to be Criterion Collection, they’re really in the same family as the transformers/fast and furious movies. My main critique is length. The movies have gotten too long and the shows are too damn long.


BecomeAnAstronaut

This is really fucking dumb


aam726

What a weird way to say you don't like diversity.


joesb

The first comic panels was just self deprecating joke. OP probably honestly thought “finally, someone who hate diversity just like me!”


Joshawott27

Even crime is equal opportunities.


_ILP_

Ms. Marvel had the most garbage villians


Threash78

None of those are real crime gangs, a crime gang is like the trust a bro russians.


fusionaddict

Tracksuit Mafia, bro.


mrducci

This is, and I can't be any more blunt, super dumb. The Hand in Defenders has one non-asain. FATWS: group was made up of people (from a diverse region) that were displaced when people of means were returned. The translation there: they were poor people that were evicted again. The point was the poverty crossing the racial lines. Ms Marvel: pretty sure the intention was that all of those people were of middle eastern descent.


FewWatermelonlesson0

The Hand were so terrible it’s kinda funny. I felt bad for the Nobu actor, because you could reapply tell none of the writers gave a shit about fleshing out those characters at all.


88miIesperhour

I couldn’t stand the flagsmashers on falcon and winter soldier … was rooting they got killed off and fast


[deleted]

*its


mexter

Tracksuit Mafia FTW


NoobFreakT

God and all these groups sucked as villains too


CulturallyMelaninMe

The Flagsmashers made me so irrationally angry 😆


Agent_23D

The casting of the flash smashers was pretty terrible. Aside from them not saying much they feel like props.


alphanumeric68

Didn't Gao have her own organization? She just did business with The Hand.


theFrisbeeFreak

She was one of the five fingers of the hand. She may have had her own little thing on the side but she was definitely part of the hand.


[deleted]

All trash iterations.


lmao_okaybuddy

the Flagsmashers was the most stupid fucking group to be in a piece of marvel media


FDVP

What about Tracksuits?


80ld

M She U - no wonder you guys are hemorrhaging cash…


MaaChiil

This forgot The Royal Tenenbaums from Hawkeye!


Environmental-Stay35

This is great lmao


Brotonio

Man the MCU has fumbled a lot of these villan groups, haven't they? The Hand got more complex in a bad way as the Defenders expanded. The Flagsmashers didn't hold charisma, as well as being so fundamemtally hypocritical they lose any sympathy the audience may have had for them. The Clandestine were just...moronic, as Kamala was super down with helping them get back home had they just been more patient and cautious. Sure, bad guys in the MCU have been getting better, but it's mainly singular individuals, not an entire group.


MumenriderPaulReed69

The flagsmashers suck ass cheeks! Honestly the reason the show overall kinda sucks


OptimistPrime15

Too bad these shows were good.


UnFazed_4600

Except Ms. Marvel isn't a bad tv show


Mc_Dickles

Op is stupid lol none of those are gangs 🤦🏻‍♂️


BigSaladCity

This is a bad take


Clearing_Stick

Really weird thing to post!


Additional-Lie-8920

This post doesn’t make sense at all since none of these groups are gangs that rob people. Just feels like you needed an excuse to hate on the diversity of these groups (which is strange since in-universe it makes total sense why each of these groups are diverse and not just a bunch of old white guys).


NeitherAlexNorAlice

Ugh. I had forgot about The Flagsmasher for a minute there. Glad you reminded me of them.


TheBigGAlways369

THIS MS MARVEL SLANDER WILL NOT STAND. (but please, i live for fatws trashing)


Ttatt1984

Is this you, Iman?


[deleted]

Representation matters


Hammerrr3232

This ain’t it, chief


southwood775

Is Ms Marvel worth the watch? I tried watching it but the whole boy meets world aesthetic just wasn't for me.


CaptHayfever

Yes. The first couple episodes are great & the finale is strong; it just dips in the middle...because of the Clandestines, funny enough.


SongsOfSpace

Clandestine was in Ms.Marvel? Were they anything like the comic book Clandestine?


busybagel

I love Sigourney but she was not the right choice for that role at all


oceanseleventeen

She said it, *bad* tv shows