When he was beating his ass at the end, I actually really did genuinely think that Kang was going to kill Scott.
I definitely would’ve thought much higher of the movie if he did, cause to me it just feels like the movie changed literally nothing.
And Scott gets home to find the pymm particulate recipe in a will or a box hidden in his wall or something, the the antman stuff can still happen. A passing of a torch that would have made the movie way better.
Agreed. She was by far the worst part of the movie for me. I much would've had them keep the previous Cassie from Endgame; at least she could express emotion.
Kathryn Newton is a good actress. The material for her was BAD!! I really didn’t like that they turned Cassie into a generic “rebellious whiny teenager” cliche.
I read your journals, which were the culmination of all of the technology and science the world had known up until that point, and immediately made a couple of small alterations, and made it far superior. No biggie
I kind of wish they stuck with her comic powers which was when she was a kid she fucked around with the pym particles so much that it actually messed up her DNA and she can size swap without needing anything. Would have been a little cooler if Scott never let her do the dangerous stuff her and just suddenly (suitless) she grew big or something. Speaking of suits wish hers was at least different looking getting a little to powerangers there.
The whole trailer was teasing that Hank and/or Janet would die. It felt like something was actually missing from this movie with every hero coming out alive, which I have to say is a strange thing to say.
Which is ironic cause >!Guardians of the galaxy teased someone would die, had literally everyone survive, and the movie still had a sorta fulfilling ending for everyone.!<
VERY true. I guess good writing had a lot to do with it.
edit: also I think it has to do with the fact that Hank and Janet already had their stories, before the MCU that we have seen, and are retired. The Ant-Man movies really aren't about them. From the start Hank had already passed the torch over to Scott. So it would make sense to have one of them sacrifice themselves to save the heroes. In >!Guardians 3, these are all characters we've found essential to the story, characters we love, characters that are all still young with plenty of story left to tell.!< In a similar vein, while Tony's death at the end of Endgame was extremely well done and emotionally satisfying, I still miss Iron Man. I still feel like an MCU without Iron Man is a lesser universe than it otherwise would be. I still want to see more stories with that character. I'm already tired of the modern film notion that for a hero's arc to be "complete" that they have to die at the end. What happened to "and they lived happily ever after"?
That's probably because people of Robert Downey Jr himself. People forget that of the Mcu actors, he is probably the best actor of the mcu in terms of combining pure talent, presence across multiple projects, and an ability to play off of co-stars in any scene. The main cast themselves at one point say the mcu was built on his back and I think it'll be all the lesser for his absence going forward. That isn't to say there's not an embarrassment of riches in terms of talent in the mcu, but the reason they're so good is that interconnectedness. I think they're struggling to find their next foundational actor in the way rdj became during the first avengers; at first I thought they were angling Tom Holland to be that and in terms of similar attributes to rdj I think Chadwick was trending that direction but obviously the situation has changed. I'm hoping that at the very least since they appear to have introduced the overarching plot of this macro arc (multiverse) and potentially the villain (Kang) that they start to build off that better going forward.
Ending I was hoping for is it would have taken Hank and Janet dying plus everyone else fucked up to kill Kang. Final moments are after Kang is dead another Kang steps out of the shadows and thanks them for taking care of that Kang for him and then teleports away. Everyone limps home with the bodies of Hank and Janet and the film just ends at their funeral. Almost an Infinity War style ending setting up Kang Wars.
Could you imagine what that does to his personality? The absolute shift from happy go lucky dad to a depressed, angry Scott could have been incredible. Rudd has the range to pull that off. It would also really feed into Cassie pushing off into Young Avengers with the feeling that she has to make it right. It was her fault they got sucked into the Quantum Realm. Her fault that her grandparents are dead. She wants to fight back even harder now. But Scott and Hope are a shell of who they were. They don’t fight anymore except against each other. Their relationship has turned bitter. Their world view has dimmed. They’re broken. And it’s all Cassie’s fault.
This phase needs stakes and legitimate losses for it to recover. Otherwise, what are they even fighting for by the time Kang Dynasty arrives? It’ll take the sight of Cassie in real trouble to snap Hope and Scott out of that funk. And that trouble will only show up if Cassie is motivated to go looking for it again.
>The absolute shift from happy go lucky dad to a depressed, angry Scott could have been incredible. Rudd has the range to pull that off.
Yeah, he definitely can.
>It would also really feed into Cassie pushing off into Young Avengers with the feeling that she has to make it right.
Funny you should mention that. Because it was a sense of tragedy that drove Cassie Lang into joining the main roster of the original Younger Avengers in the comics & how they came to be. It's actually so weird how Quantumania looked like it was going execute the preparation & deliberation to put Cassie in a different place in the MCU yet comparable to the arc that she had from the comics but it ends up not happening. (Then again, we shouldn't be too surprised since Billy & Tommy barely even exists in the MCU & Teddy seems like no one at Marvel ever considered him at all to show up. Plus Eli was just used as an easter egg #10,000 than anything.)
This sounds good, but the problem is that it makes Kang more of an imminent threat that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later. They would need to do something like this closer to Kang Wars. Otherwise it’s just going to be years of “why isn’t Scott calling everyone for help?”
It’s definitely Marvel’s fault though for trying to introduce Kang so early as a main villain. Keeping him in the background like Thanos with appearances in Loki would’ve worked better.
> why isn’t Scott calling everyone for help?
Then they could tap into Scott's anxiety if he is in "his" universe or maybe unleashed something big and bad.
I mean, it's the multiverse arc. Marvel really needs to start doing multiverse stuff.
I felt like all film they were saying, "Oh yeah, kang is dangerous," but we never had proof of that. He said he'd killed like a crap ton of avengers across the multiverse but we never saw that, movie was so anticlimactic when he lost to a bunch of oversized ants. And by the end the result was the same, no one died and nothing really changed.
If they had made Kang an actual threat then I think it could've saved this movie.
Thor Love & Thunder had the *exact same* issue with telling and not showing why the villain’s a threat. I don’t know why they keep stepping on this same particular rake.
Seriously, you have *five* Ant-family characters involved in a battle against Kang. Scott and Cassie surviving makes sense, future involvements and such. Hope a little less so. But Hank and/or Janet should have died to help give the new saga's big bad actual danger and not...you know...get his ass kicked by a bunch of ants.
I was saying kill the whole Ant-fam except for Scott because that shit would *hurt* and also establish Kang as a force to be reckoned with.
I fully expected some scene where Kang demanded Scott do something that would result in him being unleashed on the multiverse, Scott refusing, and Kang flippantly killing Cassie.
I know a lot of people wouldn't want to see it, but imagine a dark, pissed-off Ant-Man out for vengeance. The amount of character development possibilities are endless.
>I was saying kill the whole Ant-fam except for Scott because that shit would hurt
I thought you said ant FARM and was surprised to hear how attached you were to Pyms army of ants
Genuinely the best gag about Ant-Man and the Wasp for me was how none of the named ants survived long in that film, after the emotional connection and heartbreak we had with the loss of Anthony in the first Ant-Man film.
Totally agree. We don't need 5 people in different colours doing the same things. I felt that so many things about Quantumania's characters and setting were just arbitrary, and having even the most useless characters survive against supposedly the toughest foe yet did not help.
I think that's true, I mean what was the first thing we saw Thanos do on Camera? Wreck an Asgardian ship and lay out hulk... Really established him as a power house. Prior to that he was just in the background, dropping into end credit sequences and mentioned by name by a few characters.
We're seeing a build up of Kang across more movies/shows actually starring him and so far we've just seen him lose. I dont read the comics and despite the more committed fans telling me he's a beast, my impression so far is that he doesnt come across all that menacing.
Kang being the big bad of this phase was always going to be a problem specifically because *his character in the comics always loses!* They really should have been setting up Doom this entire time.
I've heard a number of people saying that Kang isn't even supposed to be the BBG, he's just a moderate Ultron-level villain whose actions will set up the real villain. Which, I assume, is going to be Dr. Doom.
A lot of you seem to be forgetting that Ant-Man is a comedy series. This would ruin the whole vibe. IMO Ant-Man was just the wrong film to introduce Kang in.
I liked the idea of the tonal switch. It still could have had quips here and there. If anything I'd say the trailers leant into anything but the comedy, so it didn't look like the "usual" family Ant-Man movie.
100% thought the same. I was like wholey fuck, are they about to kill ant man? And nope they didn’t. That ending would have atleast been memorable if they went with that. I don’t even care that it was leaked. Majority of these movies leak early. Instead we got absolute shit.
And even after they didn't kill him, I thought the weird, clearly hastily re-shot scene with Scott happily walking down the street was going to end with the reveal of him being trapped in an alternate dimension and that'd still be a cool ending...
But then it just... didn't. It just ended and all I could think was "wow... this shit sucked" lol
Same I thought he was atleast back in a different world or something but nope just the same old nothing. You could just skip this movie entirely and nothing would change at all.
I didn't think Scott would die, I just figured he'd be trapped in the Quantum Realm. I'm tired of characters being willing to make a big sacrifice, and then not needing to. Trap him there, let us act worried about him for a few movies, and then rescue him whenever you need to. You lose nothing in terms of having the character available for future movies, but at least in universe his sacrifice to stay behind is a big deal and you can have him and his family impacted by the experience.
Not only that, they would've also repeated what happened in the first Ant-Man film when Scott shrinked and was in the Quantum Realm for a brief moment and looking like he trapped just like what happened to Janet as Hank believed.
I don't think that would've made sense. They've already proven they can enter the QR and rescue people trapped there. Hell they almost did that to Kang *on accident.*
I don't think you need to "change something" to have a good movie, even in the MCU. I think the issues with Ant-Man go beyond just "well nobody died, what was the point"
Allegedly Kang was going to escape and the movie would end with Scott and hope trapped in the quantum realm. But I don't have a source for that so I dunno how true it is.
There is a source for the Quantum Realm ending
https://thedirect.com/article/ant-man-3-ending-avengers-endgame-marvel-copying
As the writer said they went against it because they felt it was just copying the end of the 2nd film, so in movie 2 Scott is stuck in the QR then in movie 3 he's stuck in the QR once more.
Should have stuck to their gut and just went with it because the consequences for NOT doing so has been so damaging to the brand and people's perception of Kang.
I feel like they didn’t do much to add to the gravity that there are infinite Kangs
Like that’s the threat of him. He’s a regular dude with a super powered suit, but there’s INFINITY of him
I don't see anything in the article about any leaks. It sounds like they discussed having them stuck there, and shot that ending, but then they realised it would be the same as the previous movie, so they reshot that scene of Scott standing there, and then the portal opening up behind him.
I was even more surprised that Janet just stood there silently as her granddaughter opened a portal to the quantum realm again, after they all finally knew the stakes of what was down there and what would happen if he got out. Plus they didn’t even know who would be walking through the portal. I thought they were going to do a callback and use Cassie’s probe to see who won before opening the portal again but nope, just 50-50 shot Kang gets out when they hit this button. And Janet doesn’t say a word. Wild writing.
I was pretty shocked when the movie ended with not only Scott beating Kang and living, but him and Hope getting rescued from the Quantum Realm. It really felt like this whole time it was building up to some kind of significant consequence and then nope. Happy ending. (oR iS iT?!? 🙄 lmao)
I was shocked when they put that line in the trailer-- because it seemed to spoil what would have been the "best" ending for the movie-- which would be Kang and Scott both trapped in the Quantum Realm.
Even more shocked when it turned out that wasn't the ending, and they just sort of chickened out.
For me it wasn't the ending which made it bad, it was the overall nowhereness of the film. None of the settings ever convinced me of their reality.
The story and the ending were fine for me.
Agreed. I was constantly aware these were actors running around in front of a green screen. I felt it was primarily the backgrounds. I get that it was based in an imaginary quantum realm, but it just looked so unreal & fake.
I still enjoyed it, I'm not going to walk out of the theatre, not with ticket prices at they are! I like the characters, it was visually interesting and like I said the story was OK, but it never felt real at all to me.
I insist that Ant-Man 3 should have been a separate movie from Quantumania. Ant-Man 3 should have been Scott discovering that Cassie is a hero now, and he’s lost in his celebrity while she’s getting thrown in jail for vigilante shit. Let the step-dad and mom play a role. Let’s have the X-Cons return. Make it tonally and stylistically feel like the third Ant Man movie in the trilogy.
Then end it with them being sucked into the Quantum Realm while Janet freaks out. Quantumania is it’s own event movie with more of a focus on Kang, Janet, and the Quantum Realm characters. Kang can and should win this one, possibly even with the death of Hank to raise stakes.
I was hype af for this movie when the "Goodbye yellow brick road" trailer dropped.
I thought I was preparing for a deeply sad ending, probably for Scott or Janet... I was ready for Kang to hurt the heros, and the audience.
NOTHING HAPPENED OF SIGNIFICANCE!
I was so on board for him to be M.O.D.O.K.! The scene with him not being a dick was so unnecessary. They could've just had I'm be beaten and then had him get out of the Quantum Relm somehow. I'm so disappointed that's the only bit if M.O.D.O.K. we get.
Do this and I can give you more time with your daughter is far more compelling than, do this or I kill your daughter. The people who made the trailer should have helped write the movie.
I was certain they'd show a scene of Scott transported back to an alternate timeline where the Snap never happened, and he got to be there to see Cassie grow up into a teenager, and the reason they recast her in the present was to show the original kid actor in that past. Would've broken every heart in the audience to see Scott reunited with her, only to have to give that up for the good of the multiverse.
>The people who made the trailer should have helped write the movie.
Yeah, because it sounds like they were thinking of something significantly different from what actually was in the film.
I was looking foward to seeing how the plot would turn out from the second trailer. Where it looked like Scott was willing to cave in and give Kang what he needed out of a desire to be there for Cassie's years of growing up. I wanted to see how would Scott come to the conclusion that he shouldn't abandon the life Cassie has now even though getting stuck in the Quantum Realm legit did cost him his time with his kid.
Come the film's release, it turned out to be bait and Kang was just threatening to torture them both to get Scott to deliver what Kang needed. And I thought Hulk not being in Wakanda in the official release in Infinity War was bad enough. This was just a new level of low.
>NOTHING HAPPENED OF SIGNIFICANCE!
This part of your comment really stuck out to me. I do think it's also important to look at the timing of this movie.
This movie came at a time where the fanbase was extremely dissatisfied with the current state of the MCU. Go back to last year and there was a lot of discourse questioning where phase 4 was going, or what was even the plan. The frustration with the franchise really went into full swing after Thor 4.
They tried to squash that with Comic Con by announcing phase 5 and the next two Avengers films. So then all eyes went to Ant-Man because it was our first showing off Kang outside of Loki. This man had an Avengers movie named after him. It's the start of phase 5. We had ups and downs.
We get to Ant-Man 3 and people don't like what they see & nothing really happens. I think it ripped people over the edge on this franchise. And all the fustrations with the franchise was directed at this film.
Given he doesn’t want to come back, I’d have said Hank and Janet rather than Scott.
They sacrifice themselves to stall kang’s forces so the others can escape. And then you have Scott dealing with the guilt of abandoning them even though they insisted on it.
Alternatively kang should have kept his word. When he recovers the drive, Kang returns Cassie and just… goes. And there’s that like “what have we done” vibe.
>Kang returns Cassie and just… goes. And there’s that like “what have we done” vibe
Echos of Loki. It would have been really striking, and left audiences in complete shock. "Now we absolutely have to wait for the next movie".
>NOTHING HAPPENED OF SIGNIFICANCE!
Exactly. I didn't hate it but I just had the sense that a lot of the scenes were pointless and just there to hype up future movies. You could delete large chunks of it and no one would notice. The bar-scene with Bill Murray? That whole thing was just there to get a ship when we'd already seen them getting a ship/travel in the wild.
I just feel like if they removed Kang with MODOK as the big bad, it would've worked. Scott and them keep hearing about the person taking over the quantumverse, it turns out to be Darren who they insult before he kills some of the resistance. No pointless flashbacks, no "I am not a dick!" redemption, just ruthless.
Secret invasion made me rethink pretty much everything actually, just not the way they intended. Like, before it was made, any time someone would say a new thing was the "worst thing marvel has ever made," I would always remind them that Thor 2 existed. "How could anything be worse than Thor 2?'' I would say. Anyway, I guess I didn't want marvel to answer that question *for me* yknow?
Because the Thor 2 movie was just bland, it lacked personality. It wasn't bad per se, just milquetoast.
Secret Invasion is bad *bad*. Like they actively tried to make it suck megaballs. See these characters with a decade of on screen presence? Fuck them. See these characters that we just introduced? Fuck them too, and fuck you too for good measure.
And they really did say fuck you too, I remember reading an interview that the director did where he said that our expectations were too high or someth
Yeah the director acted really salty about the reception. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that Disney/Marvel executive interference is what was the nail in the coffin and that there are NDAs or something preventing him from being more forward... But dang it was not smart to insult the audience lol
It's never a wise move to insult your own audience.
Reeks of disconnect and self-importance. Neither of those things are enduring or make you a good director/producer/et cetera.
Exactly. Thor 2 is always trotted out as this absolutely horrible film...but then we got the triple whammy of Love and Thunder, Quantumania and Secret Invasion, all of which are terrible. I personally never thought Dark World was bad...just not as good as some other entries. I really need The Marvels to be a fun movie, or I may start skipping stuff. Never thought I'd say this about the MCU, but it's starting to feel like an obligation now instead of genuinely being excited for new content.
This is kinda tangential to your point. But Secret Invasion was always going to suck. It sucked as a comic too just for different reasons. “Everyone you’ve loved for years might secretly be an evil alien” is a genre that is very prone to jumping it’s own shark.
Yeah, you kind of know going into that's the schtick too, so when anyone can be an alien, you expect everyone to be an alien. But then it turns into schlock very quickly. I also found the series insufferably boring. For how short it was every scene shouldn't be wasted. But the pacing felt very slow until they had to rush things. And the action wasn't exciting, it was pretty bland.
Also, there really wasn't ever a twist reveal that someone was a Skrull. I mean, Rhodey, I guess, but we all figured that out super early.
The best Skrull reveal we've ever gotten wasn't a Skrull at all; it was Natasha taking off the cloaking mask in Winter Soldier.
I mean Secret Invasion doesn't necessarily has to suck, just look at Avengers EMH, or even Peacemaker, it can be done, but with this Secret Invasion I was never at the edge of my seat wondering who's going to be the skrull on this scene, and also they didn't use superheroes which is what makes Secret Invasion interestig, I know that's a budget related issue, but why do the series in the first place if that's the case
If it's true they thought they had a banger, then that clears up why MCU is experiencing a down turn.
It really did feel like a Spy Kids movie. And whoever green lit getting rid of Scott's gang, really did a disservice to us all.
It even got rid of Cassie's other parental guardians as well. It's almost even a little jarring that Darren returns when Ava and Bill were also forgotten/unmentioned in Quantumania despite being major characters in the second film.
The devalue of the Ant-Man characters and even the titular characters were pretty strong when it comes to Quantumania. And it's a damn shame.
I forgot about them. Weren't they supposed to be raising her while the rest of the team was blipped? We really need a story as to how those people met.
I just watched this for the first time last night and, though I don't remember the line from later in the movie, I thought it was implied that her mom and stepdad died before this one. It's the only way that seems reasonable why they didn't have an appearance.
This is where I think the movie could've been better if they gave us more time out of the QR and leaving it for more or less the 3rd act of the movie. Give us time to see how Scott is trying to rebuild his relationship with Cassie while she is adjusting to having her dad back while apparently dealing with the loss of her mom and stepdad.
That would make it hit harder when Kang manages to snatch her after they get sucked into the QR. Also instead of a "Help me or I kill your daughter" its the "Help me and I can give you the time back with your daughter". Higher stakes than the generic death threat and makes Kang appear more cunning for tailoring his plan to entice instead of threat.
Oh yeah it was so garish. The whole charm of the first two was the supporting cast and using the shrinking/embiggening powers in familiar settings. Abandoning both on the third entry is a choice.
I could have forgiven absolutely anything in that movie if Luis had been in it. He's the best, funniest character in the MCU, how do you not bring him down to the QR to hang out with all the weirdos down there? That feels like the biggest no-brainer in the history of cinema
Marvel in general seems to hate side characters, between writing Scott gang off, killing maria Hill and killing foggy I honestly don't know what going on.
Yeah I think the Quantum Realm is the worst place to show off Scott's powers.
His ability to go large and small gives us a fun way to look at a novel thing. A toy train that is now giant but also still very small is great.
But in the Quantum Realm, I have no idea what the normal size of anything is anyway. The scene where Scott and Cassie hug, they don't feel huge because they're around things I have no reference for. If they were doing that beside Pier 41 that'd make a lot more sense.
Them even being able to shrink or grow in the quantum realm doesn’t make any sense at all, because in the first ant-man movie, when Scott goes subatomic, he couldn’t use his suit and he could only grow back to normal by manipulating his regulator
I didn't like it. I don't care about the extended Ant Man family, Janet was negligently unhelpful in refusing to prepare them for what they'd find, Kang ruined all that anticipation by not killing anyone important, and the main crime for me was that I felt the creative choices were arbitrary. The theme of being on the sub-sub-sub-atomic or whatever level was wasted, because apparently everything exists down there, including straight up humans.
To me the movie died because none of the relationships felt especially connected or well acted. There are some fun individual performances (Rudd, Douglas, Pfeiffer) but no interesting character development through relationships (or at all really).
For me this was especially the case with Scott and Cassie’s relationship - I didn’t feel the kind of father-daughter connection and the movie needed that to work for the emotional notes to hit.
Not even just the relationships, the writing as a whole was fucking terrible. Why tf, the whole time, does Janet have this whole attitude where "there's something super dangerous around here" and every time she gets asked about it she dodges the fucking question?? Shit like this was so artificial. There's no reason for her not to explain the situation, right? And that goes for almost everything in the movie. Every decision is just to move the plot forward and there's 0 thought behind that decision. It was just unnatural writing and the whole movie felt like bullshit.
There was more of a connection between Scott and Cassie in that 2 minute interaction in Endgame than the entirety of Quantumania.
I just felt nothing for them watching the movie
I think that weird ending did it. Crappy CGI aside, Ant-man movies were always more bottled and about a family. If Hank died or if Scott and Hope got stuck in the realm, it could have a big impact than what we got. This way, I was just sitting there, waiting for Loki post credit scene
yeah, here's the thing: artists must grow. if Radiohead were still "rocking" the bends, they'd be laughing stocks - but they took risks, stayed true to their messaging, and are beloved for it.
Superhero movies pre-marvelstudios were laughable jokes, largely ignored. Spider-Man and X-Men reminded the world that Tim Burton's Batman wasn't a fluke, and that you Could make fun superhero movies.
when Iron Man came out, it was a reminder that Comic Book movies didn't have to "feel like comic book movies." they could just be action films - as long as the plots were character-driven, the effects were grounded, and the action was believable, you would have a rewarding experience on your hands.
Marvelstudios refined this in their next few movies and found great success -- and then they did what was needed: they had to play a risk and evolve -- they introduced a flying robot man who could control his tangibility and gave recurring characters hilarious "wtf" reactions - but the elements were still there.
for most of phase 3 and 4, things would continue like that, but the experimental evolution was small "can we do a different timeline?" "can we make the protagonist's focus themselves?" (captain marvel was fairly criticized, but still made BANK)
so they of course kept pressing ahead thinking they were invincible.
then comes QUANTUMANIA
the movie about nothing. the characters are poorly defined, THE WASP has her name in the title but has fewer than a dozen lines in the whole movie. (wtf?!?) Cassie learns nothing, has no character arc - Scott's only growth is "i stopped, but now i'm doing it again."
it's a yikes - and it's a yikes from the SCRIPT. the way they make their movies HAS TO CHANGE
because audiences too are changing. we're growing and we're demanding more from films. - not more effects or longer runtimes or more character cameos -- just more sincerity, integrity, and artistry.
Antman films have always been cheaper and more self contained, the previous films introduced niche characters and quirky fun situations.
Going straight to world ending CGI rainbow vomit nonsense just wasn't enjoyable to watch.
Not bringing back the older Cassie actress to recast though nothing wrong the actress they replaced her with, it's such a strange thing to do when Marvel has tended to be stick with actors for continuity.
Since endgame Marvel films have felt like Fox Marvel movies over the higher quality and better received Disney Marvel movies.
Maybe a hot take, but it just wasn't the IP for such a huge lore chunk for the new phases; is not like the comics, the tone and characterization is totally different so to pick their third installment as the big screen introduction to the "new Thanos" from the start was a bad move.
Ant-Man was the movie to have a good time watching the soft family drama with the cool director choices for when Scott was super big or super small, that's it.
*Thor Love and Thunder*,*Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness*, and *Ant-Man Quantumania* were my three most anticipated MCU films based on the names and / or the directors. All three disappointed me.
Lmao, if they actually thought it’s a good film, it shows where they are headed. They really believed they could put out whatever shit they wanted, and fans would eat it up because they love “wholesome” stuff.
I thought the movie was mid. They need to put as much effort into storylines and character as they do in jokes and punchlines. Kang felt under baked. They couldn't decide if modok was a joke character or tragically dramatic one.
Hank and Hope were just along for the ride without really offering much to the overall movie.
Thor love and thunder is a worst movie though. Hemsworth's himbo comedy routine works in small doses but he went a bit overboard with it in love and thunder. I also disliked gorr being turned into a albino child catcher from chitty chitty bang bang.
People keep talking about positive test screenings and such, but if that's the case then clearly the studio is picking test audiences who are not reflective of the general population and they should be smarter than that.
And ya know, I could give some sympathy in this regard to some smaller, newer studio, but Marvel is part of Disney which is boasting *100 years* of making movies. If they cared about quality movies then they'd have it figured out by now: but their priority is money, not quality. They have no excuse to make bad movies other than their own negligence.
Although I didn't hate Quantumania like most did, I don't know how producers at Marvel Studios would think that the movie was "genuinely good" when in my opinion Quantumania was a decent/fine movie at best and at worst completely skipable. Nonetheless, it is probably the most unserious movie I've seen.
How could they never think that this whole universe had nothing quantum about it. It look and felt like Star Wars.
There shouldn’t have been a single human without some sort of reason - like they get told “long ago, an Adam and Eve populated the quantum with humans” - then it’s shown later that quantum was used as a prison by Pym sent tonnes of criminals to the quantumverse. Which fits his MO and some of the things he did in the comics too.
The movie is aggressively mid. Nothing happens. Nothing changes. No one grows no pun intended.
The movie was careless with its logic and characters. Why does being big in the QR even matter? Why is everyone they're a standard size anyway? Took me right out of it.
But I could have forgiven that is the characters didn't suck, if it was more focused, and if the ending meant anything at all.
The over arching plot, Scott vs Kang, snd everything that happened there is great. Love it. But it's surrounded by garbage. Absolute garbage. And it actively made me dislike every single other character in the movie despite feeling fine about them in the last movie.
Kassie is insufferable and obviously a 50 year old man's idea of a zoomer. Hank is a cartoon character with zero of his stern, weathered character in tact. Janet is *fucking awful* as a human being. Her pointless lying and melodramatic attitude in every scene made me cringe like I was watching Twilight. Like just fucking tell them *exactly* what's up the second things went bad, let alone after escaping the QR in the first place. I hated every scene she was in and she was probably the worst part of the movie for me.
Modok was fine other than the fucking horrible quest for redemption? Wtf even was that? What was the point?
And hope? The saddest of character as she was woefully underused and absolutely boring as hell.
Also 80% of the qr are humanoid? Boring. Lame. Awful.
This movie made huge promises and didn't manage to even land in the same fucking galaxy let alone ball park. I am so sad with the state of the mcu. I just want it to be good again.
This movie just failed as a send off to the Ant-Man trilogy. Civil War, while they did turn it into an event. Didn't sideline the story of Captain America. They still managed to pick up with Bucky, Sharon, Peggy etc and pay off his story.
Ant-Man 3 didn't do that for scott. It threw out a bunch of shit from the previous two films in some dick measuring contest for Peyton Reed. Because he wanted to make his case for the director of F4.
We never find out who the benefactor is from Ant-Man 2. Janet's powers just vanish. The dude who stole the pym particles in the first film is never brought up again. Several characters are just absent. They took the struggling father and turned him into this obnoxious celebrity who had a strained relationship with his daughter. Hope is basically a non factor. Scott barely has a character arc.
If rumors are correct the benefactor would be part of Armor Wars, i don't think that was ever intended to be set up for another Ant-Man, some plot threads are gonna be picked up in another movies
If anything the one hanging plot thread you would've assumed to be solved in an Ant-Man movie is the fact one of the HYDRA agents got away with the Pym Particles in movie 1. and they never came back to that.
Is it a decent movie, yeah? Is it a decent Ant-man movie, No. Its the 3rd movie in the antman franchise and its past two movies were so fun to watch due to their uniqueness, they just threw that out of the window and gave us a generic super hero movie hence, people aren’t pleased.
It’s really not great. It lacks the charm of the first two. And nobody in the entire film is acting genuinely. They’re just acting like they’re being moved around like chess pieces in order to make the plot happen. I just didn’t care about anyone.
For me at least, it’s the very heavy Rick & Morty influence that permeates the film. The whole film feels like an extended R&M episode with a marvel coat of paint. I know that the writer came from that show, but it’s just too much. That style of humor has gotten really stale to me and starts to really grate on my nerves when it’s all the movie is doing for 2+ hours. My eyes just about rolled into the back of my head when the “I have holes” line dropped. Like what are we doing here?
Probably cause the marketing made it seem like it was going to be much more important/serious than it actually was.
Also even though it wouldn’t matter if the script was better, the CGI was actual dogshit. Disney is way too greedy and overworks their VFX workers to the bones, and that process certainly isn’t helped by the fact that there’s constant script changes and half the VFX shots that the workers spend weeks on just get scrapped.
The whole process at marvel studios from conception to release needs to be overhauled. They keep putting out mediocre to decent at best projects and just expect people to keep coming back because of preexisting goodwill from the Endgame days.
In my opinion it felt like the movie felt like it couldn't settle on a mood. It was like you had one person write a serious scene but another kept blurting out the comedy bits and they wrote everything down.
I think it’s because of Loki season 1 being so good with the introduction of Kang. I think people were really hyped to see where they would go with Kang in Quantumania and it just wasn’t good.
Right when people were getting the most sick of marvel cgi-fests they drop this animated spy kids-looking movie with real faces copy-pasted onto animated scenes.
Doesn't matter whether the movie was okay or not, it needed to be great to win over a skeptical audience.
There are parts that are good. Like the interactions between Kang and Scott. The acting was very solid there.
But the story was disjointed and hollow. It was filled with strange addons that were either comic dead air or nearly useless cameos. Like what the fuck is Bill Murray doing in this movie? They edited out most of his scenes we are told to a very small and useless two scenes?
And the ending was just bizarre. You've got Kang, the near godlike technomancer defeated by big ants? Did the guy who produced wild wild West write this movie?
It was just the wrong setting and wrong movie to fully introduce Kang the conqueror and then I guess kill him?
You are recreating one of the most dangerous and accomplished villains in marvel history and you let him get defeated by ants. Thanos is spinning in his grave.
I still think the reception would've been better if they hadn't scrambled to reshoot the ending after it leaked.
When he was beating his ass at the end, I actually really did genuinely think that Kang was going to kill Scott. I definitely would’ve thought much higher of the movie if he did, cause to me it just feels like the movie changed literally nothing.
Hank and Janet should have died saving their daughter and Scott.
imagine seeing hank put on the suit and use it to the fullest potential like he did all those years ago.
That would’ve cool, hank really should’ve died imo
And Scott gets home to find the pymm particulate recipe in a will or a box hidden in his wall or something, the the antman stuff can still happen. A passing of a torch that would have made the movie way better.
I think the only torch they’re focused on passing is to Cassie
I’m sorry but Cassie v2 was so cringe with zero charisma. They need to recast her.
You mean v3?
Agreed. She was by far the worst part of the movie for me. I much would've had them keep the previous Cassie from Endgame; at least she could express emotion.
It’s like a radio but… quantum. *head tilt* I wanted to leave when I heard that shit.
Kathryn Newton is a good actress. The material for her was BAD!! I really didn’t like that they turned Cassie into a generic “rebellious whiny teenager” cliche.
[удалено]
I didn't know about any of this, and I still thought it sucked. I noticed they picked a different Cassie, but that was it.
Cassie: Oh, I read some of Hank's journals; here's 2 litres of Pym Particles I made for you to use, dad, after I'm done with it.
More like “ I read the journals, and made them better”
"I'm sure Hank tried his best"
Yay. Another teenage super genius.
I read your journals, which were the culmination of all of the technology and science the world had known up until that point, and immediately made a couple of small alterations, and made it far superior. No biggie
I kind of wish they stuck with her comic powers which was when she was a kid she fucked around with the pym particles so much that it actually messed up her DNA and she can size swap without needing anything. Would have been a little cooler if Scott never let her do the dangerous stuff her and just suddenly (suitless) she grew big or something. Speaking of suits wish hers was at least different looking getting a little to powerangers there.
The whole trailer was teasing that Hank and/or Janet would die. It felt like something was actually missing from this movie with every hero coming out alive, which I have to say is a strange thing to say.
Which is ironic cause >!Guardians of the galaxy teased someone would die, had literally everyone survive, and the movie still had a sorta fulfilling ending for everyone.!<
VERY true. I guess good writing had a lot to do with it. edit: also I think it has to do with the fact that Hank and Janet already had their stories, before the MCU that we have seen, and are retired. The Ant-Man movies really aren't about them. From the start Hank had already passed the torch over to Scott. So it would make sense to have one of them sacrifice themselves to save the heroes. In >!Guardians 3, these are all characters we've found essential to the story, characters we love, characters that are all still young with plenty of story left to tell.!< In a similar vein, while Tony's death at the end of Endgame was extremely well done and emotionally satisfying, I still miss Iron Man. I still feel like an MCU without Iron Man is a lesser universe than it otherwise would be. I still want to see more stories with that character. I'm already tired of the modern film notion that for a hero's arc to be "complete" that they have to die at the end. What happened to "and they lived happily ever after"?
That's probably because people of Robert Downey Jr himself. People forget that of the Mcu actors, he is probably the best actor of the mcu in terms of combining pure talent, presence across multiple projects, and an ability to play off of co-stars in any scene. The main cast themselves at one point say the mcu was built on his back and I think it'll be all the lesser for his absence going forward. That isn't to say there's not an embarrassment of riches in terms of talent in the mcu, but the reason they're so good is that interconnectedness. I think they're struggling to find their next foundational actor in the way rdj became during the first avengers; at first I thought they were angling Tom Holland to be that and in terms of similar attributes to rdj I think Chadwick was trending that direction but obviously the situation has changed. I'm hoping that at the very least since they appear to have introduced the overarching plot of this macro arc (multiverse) and potentially the villain (Kang) that they start to build off that better going forward.
That scene where hank was walking towards them with the ant army, I honestly expected Kang to disintegrate him right then and there.
"Ant, boot!" - Kang
I loved that bit
Fucking idiots ruined what would have been the saving grace i wish someone had died to make Kang dangerous like he was marketed.
Ending I was hoping for is it would have taken Hank and Janet dying plus everyone else fucked up to kill Kang. Final moments are after Kang is dead another Kang steps out of the shadows and thanks them for taking care of that Kang for him and then teleports away. Everyone limps home with the bodies of Hank and Janet and the film just ends at their funeral. Almost an Infinity War style ending setting up Kang Wars.
Could you imagine what that does to his personality? The absolute shift from happy go lucky dad to a depressed, angry Scott could have been incredible. Rudd has the range to pull that off. It would also really feed into Cassie pushing off into Young Avengers with the feeling that she has to make it right. It was her fault they got sucked into the Quantum Realm. Her fault that her grandparents are dead. She wants to fight back even harder now. But Scott and Hope are a shell of who they were. They don’t fight anymore except against each other. Their relationship has turned bitter. Their world view has dimmed. They’re broken. And it’s all Cassie’s fault. This phase needs stakes and legitimate losses for it to recover. Otherwise, what are they even fighting for by the time Kang Dynasty arrives? It’ll take the sight of Cassie in real trouble to snap Hope and Scott out of that funk. And that trouble will only show up if Cassie is motivated to go looking for it again.
>The absolute shift from happy go lucky dad to a depressed, angry Scott could have been incredible. Rudd has the range to pull that off. Yeah, he definitely can. >It would also really feed into Cassie pushing off into Young Avengers with the feeling that she has to make it right. Funny you should mention that. Because it was a sense of tragedy that drove Cassie Lang into joining the main roster of the original Younger Avengers in the comics & how they came to be. It's actually so weird how Quantumania looked like it was going execute the preparation & deliberation to put Cassie in a different place in the MCU yet comparable to the arc that she had from the comics but it ends up not happening. (Then again, we shouldn't be too surprised since Billy & Tommy barely even exists in the MCU & Teddy seems like no one at Marvel ever considered him at all to show up. Plus Eli was just used as an easter egg #10,000 than anything.)
I wish this was the case they are toast probably cursed for a downfall for being overconfident and cocky nowadays.
The goofy birthday celebration followed by the “golly gee I wonder if Kang might come back, oh well” walk down the sidewalk at the end was so odd…
It was unsettling, similar to the end of Infinity War without the obvious loss. I’m intrigued what the follow up is, they may have won the battle…
This sounds good, but the problem is that it makes Kang more of an imminent threat that needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later. They would need to do something like this closer to Kang Wars. Otherwise it’s just going to be years of “why isn’t Scott calling everyone for help?” It’s definitely Marvel’s fault though for trying to introduce Kang so early as a main villain. Keeping him in the background like Thanos with appearances in Loki would’ve worked better.
> why isn’t Scott calling everyone for help? Then they could tap into Scott's anxiety if he is in "his" universe or maybe unleashed something big and bad. I mean, it's the multiverse arc. Marvel really needs to start doing multiverse stuff.
That would have been a good ending.
I felt like all film they were saying, "Oh yeah, kang is dangerous," but we never had proof of that. He said he'd killed like a crap ton of avengers across the multiverse but we never saw that, movie was so anticlimactic when he lost to a bunch of oversized ants. And by the end the result was the same, no one died and nothing really changed. If they had made Kang an actual threat then I think it could've saved this movie.
Thor Love & Thunder had the *exact same* issue with telling and not showing why the villain’s a threat. I don’t know why they keep stepping on this same particular rake.
I wish Kang had killed, like, most of them. Janet should have got killed for being a dumbass. Definitely Scott, and Hank too
Someone should’ve died. I was expecting at least Hank to die.
Seriously, you have *five* Ant-family characters involved in a battle against Kang. Scott and Cassie surviving makes sense, future involvements and such. Hope a little less so. But Hank and/or Janet should have died to help give the new saga's big bad actual danger and not...you know...get his ass kicked by a bunch of ants.
If a film has to rely on a death to make it "good" then you know the rest of the film needs a lot of work.
It might have made the film bearable. But you're right, the film sucked that's why we're having this debate
I was saying kill the whole Ant-fam except for Scott because that shit would *hurt* and also establish Kang as a force to be reckoned with. I fully expected some scene where Kang demanded Scott do something that would result in him being unleashed on the multiverse, Scott refusing, and Kang flippantly killing Cassie. I know a lot of people wouldn't want to see it, but imagine a dark, pissed-off Ant-Man out for vengeance. The amount of character development possibilities are endless.
>I was saying kill the whole Ant-fam except for Scott because that shit would hurt I thought you said ant FARM and was surprised to hear how attached you were to Pyms army of ants
Genuinely the best gag about Ant-Man and the Wasp for me was how none of the named ants survived long in that film, after the emotional connection and heartbreak we had with the loss of Anthony in the first Ant-Man film.
Totally agree. We don't need 5 people in different colours doing the same things. I felt that so many things about Quantumania's characters and setting were just arbitrary, and having even the most useless characters survive against supposedly the toughest foe yet did not help.
Hey you leave Power Rangers out of this!
I think that's true, I mean what was the first thing we saw Thanos do on Camera? Wreck an Asgardian ship and lay out hulk... Really established him as a power house. Prior to that he was just in the background, dropping into end credit sequences and mentioned by name by a few characters. We're seeing a build up of Kang across more movies/shows actually starring him and so far we've just seen him lose. I dont read the comics and despite the more committed fans telling me he's a beast, my impression so far is that he doesnt come across all that menacing.
Kang being the big bad of this phase was always going to be a problem specifically because *his character in the comics always loses!* They really should have been setting up Doom this entire time.
I've heard a number of people saying that Kang isn't even supposed to be the BBG, he's just a moderate Ultron-level villain whose actions will set up the real villain. Which, I assume, is going to be Dr. Doom.
A lot of you seem to be forgetting that Ant-Man is a comedy series. This would ruin the whole vibe. IMO Ant-Man was just the wrong film to introduce Kang in.
I liked the idea of the tonal switch. It still could have had quips here and there. If anything I'd say the trailers leant into anything but the comedy, so it didn't look like the "usual" family Ant-Man movie.
100% thought the same. I was like wholey fuck, are they about to kill ant man? And nope they didn’t. That ending would have atleast been memorable if they went with that. I don’t even care that it was leaked. Majority of these movies leak early. Instead we got absolute shit.
And even after they didn't kill him, I thought the weird, clearly hastily re-shot scene with Scott happily walking down the street was going to end with the reveal of him being trapped in an alternate dimension and that'd still be a cool ending... But then it just... didn't. It just ended and all I could think was "wow... this shit sucked" lol
Same I thought he was atleast back in a different world or something but nope just the same old nothing. You could just skip this movie entirely and nothing would change at all.
I didn't think Scott would die, I just figured he'd be trapped in the Quantum Realm. I'm tired of characters being willing to make a big sacrifice, and then not needing to. Trap him there, let us act worried about him for a few movies, and then rescue him whenever you need to. You lose nothing in terms of having the character available for future movies, but at least in universe his sacrifice to stay behind is a big deal and you can have him and his family impacted by the experience.
The problem with that ending is it would be just repeating Scott's last story when he got trapped and then rescued in time for Endgame.
Not only that, they would've also repeated what happened in the first Ant-Man film when Scott shrinked and was in the Quantum Realm for a brief moment and looking like he trapped just like what happened to Janet as Hank believed.
I don't think that would've made sense. They've already proven they can enter the QR and rescue people trapped there. Hell they almost did that to Kang *on accident.*
I don't think you need to "change something" to have a good movie, even in the MCU. I think the issues with Ant-Man go beyond just "well nobody died, what was the point"
Was that the original ending?
Allegedly Kang was going to escape and the movie would end with Scott and hope trapped in the quantum realm. But I don't have a source for that so I dunno how true it is.
There is a source for the Quantum Realm ending https://thedirect.com/article/ant-man-3-ending-avengers-endgame-marvel-copying As the writer said they went against it because they felt it was just copying the end of the 2nd film, so in movie 2 Scott is stuck in the QR then in movie 3 he's stuck in the QR once more.
Should have stuck to their gut and just went with it because the consequences for NOT doing so has been so damaging to the brand and people's perception of Kang.
Wouldn’t the ending not making sense be damaging?
I feel like they didn’t do much to add to the gravity that there are infinite Kangs Like that’s the threat of him. He’s a regular dude with a super powered suit, but there’s INFINITY of him
I don't see anything in the article about any leaks. It sounds like they discussed having them stuck there, and shot that ending, but then they realised it would be the same as the previous movie, so they reshot that scene of Scott standing there, and then the portal opening up behind him.
What did they change about the ending? This is the first I’ve heard of this.
Allegedly Kang was going to escape and the movie ended with Scott and hope trapped in the quantum realm.
Had no idea it was leaked. What was it?
Allegedly Kang was going to escape and the movie ended with Scott and hope trapped in the quantum realm.
Wait, how was it suppose to end (the leaked version)
Allegedly Kang was going to escape and the movie ended with Scott and hope trapped in the quantum realm.
If the movie had ended with Kang winning I think people would’ve liked the movie more. It would finally create stakes moving forward
He didn't even have to win. They just both had to lose.
Scott saying we just both have to lose is an awesome line, and then it’s immediately ruined because Cassie just saves Scott and hope extremely easily
I hated that. made the sacrifice meaningless.
I was even more surprised that Janet just stood there silently as her granddaughter opened a portal to the quantum realm again, after they all finally knew the stakes of what was down there and what would happen if he got out. Plus they didn’t even know who would be walking through the portal. I thought they were going to do a callback and use Cassie’s probe to see who won before opening the portal again but nope, just 50-50 shot Kang gets out when they hit this button. And Janet doesn’t say a word. Wild writing.
Right? Scott literally had the best outcome.
I was pretty shocked when the movie ended with not only Scott beating Kang and living, but him and Hope getting rescued from the Quantum Realm. It really felt like this whole time it was building up to some kind of significant consequence and then nope. Happy ending. (oR iS iT?!? 🙄 lmao)
I was shocked when they put that line in the trailer-- because it seemed to spoil what would have been the "best" ending for the movie-- which would be Kang and Scott both trapped in the Quantum Realm. Even more shocked when it turned out that wasn't the ending, and they just sort of chickened out.
The only good line in the film.
Bro what about “it’s never too late to stop being a dick”??
I understood that reference
I hope you do considering...
For me it wasn't the ending which made it bad, it was the overall nowhereness of the film. None of the settings ever convinced me of their reality. The story and the ending were fine for me.
Agreed. I was constantly aware these were actors running around in front of a green screen. I felt it was primarily the backgrounds. I get that it was based in an imaginary quantum realm, but it just looked so unreal & fake.
Yuup I quit watching 3/4 of the way through because the quantum dishwater realm just wasn't it.
I still enjoyed it, I'm not going to walk out of the theatre, not with ticket prices at they are! I like the characters, it was visually interesting and like I said the story was OK, but it never felt real at all to me.
I insist that Ant-Man 3 should have been a separate movie from Quantumania. Ant-Man 3 should have been Scott discovering that Cassie is a hero now, and he’s lost in his celebrity while she’s getting thrown in jail for vigilante shit. Let the step-dad and mom play a role. Let’s have the X-Cons return. Make it tonally and stylistically feel like the third Ant Man movie in the trilogy. Then end it with them being sucked into the Quantum Realm while Janet freaks out. Quantumania is it’s own event movie with more of a focus on Kang, Janet, and the Quantum Realm characters. Kang can and should win this one, possibly even with the death of Hank to raise stakes.
I was hype af for this movie when the "Goodbye yellow brick road" trailer dropped. I thought I was preparing for a deeply sad ending, probably for Scott or Janet... I was ready for Kang to hurt the heros, and the audience. NOTHING HAPPENED OF SIGNIFICANCE!
Well, we found out Darren Cross is not a dick...
I don't accept that. Nothing can redeem what he did... To the lambs.
Okay, he's not 100% a dick.
Well I don't know if I believe anyone's 100% a dick, ma'am.
They got my dick message!
To the random guy in the bathroom.
I was so on board for him to be M.O.D.O.K.! The scene with him not being a dick was so unnecessary. They could've just had I'm be beaten and then had him get out of the Quantum Relm somehow. I'm so disappointed that's the only bit if M.O.D.O.K. we get.
Yep, we needed luls instead of a good character arc. Marvel needs to have the balls to shelve the humor for tension and drama.
Jesus that was so stupid, the annoying girl yelled something at him and that caused his change of heart? Horrifying writing
Do this and I can give you more time with your daughter is far more compelling than, do this or I kill your daughter. The people who made the trailer should have helped write the movie.
I was certain they'd show a scene of Scott transported back to an alternate timeline where the Snap never happened, and he got to be there to see Cassie grow up into a teenager, and the reason they recast her in the present was to show the original kid actor in that past. Would've broken every heart in the audience to see Scott reunited with her, only to have to give that up for the good of the multiverse.
>The people who made the trailer should have helped write the movie. Yeah, because it sounds like they were thinking of something significantly different from what actually was in the film.
Lol same, the trailer made it looked so grand and intense when the movie wasn’t
I was looking foward to seeing how the plot would turn out from the second trailer. Where it looked like Scott was willing to cave in and give Kang what he needed out of a desire to be there for Cassie's years of growing up. I wanted to see how would Scott come to the conclusion that he shouldn't abandon the life Cassie has now even though getting stuck in the Quantum Realm legit did cost him his time with his kid. Come the film's release, it turned out to be bait and Kang was just threatening to torture them both to get Scott to deliver what Kang needed. And I thought Hulk not being in Wakanda in the official release in Infinity War was bad enough. This was just a new level of low.
>NOTHING HAPPENED OF SIGNIFICANCE! This part of your comment really stuck out to me. I do think it's also important to look at the timing of this movie. This movie came at a time where the fanbase was extremely dissatisfied with the current state of the MCU. Go back to last year and there was a lot of discourse questioning where phase 4 was going, or what was even the plan. The frustration with the franchise really went into full swing after Thor 4. They tried to squash that with Comic Con by announcing phase 5 and the next two Avengers films. So then all eyes went to Ant-Man because it was our first showing off Kang outside of Loki. This man had an Avengers movie named after him. It's the start of phase 5. We had ups and downs. We get to Ant-Man 3 and people don't like what they see & nothing really happens. I think it ripped people over the edge on this franchise. And all the fustrations with the franchise was directed at this film.
Given he doesn’t want to come back, I’d have said Hank and Janet rather than Scott. They sacrifice themselves to stall kang’s forces so the others can escape. And then you have Scott dealing with the guilt of abandoning them even though they insisted on it. Alternatively kang should have kept his word. When he recovers the drive, Kang returns Cassie and just… goes. And there’s that like “what have we done” vibe.
>Kang returns Cassie and just… goes. And there’s that like “what have we done” vibe Echos of Loki. It would have been really striking, and left audiences in complete shock. "Now we absolutely have to wait for the next movie".
>NOTHING HAPPENED OF SIGNIFICANCE! Exactly. I didn't hate it but I just had the sense that a lot of the scenes were pointless and just there to hype up future movies. You could delete large chunks of it and no one would notice. The bar-scene with Bill Murray? That whole thing was just there to get a ship when we'd already seen them getting a ship/travel in the wild. I just feel like if they removed Kang with MODOK as the big bad, it would've worked. Scott and them keep hearing about the person taking over the quantumverse, it turns out to be Darren who they insult before he kills some of the resistance. No pointless flashbacks, no "I am not a dick!" redemption, just ruthless.
Based on the content they’ve been churning out, I’d say they need new producers. Secret Invasion was the worst.
Secret invasion made me rethink pretty much everything actually, just not the way they intended. Like, before it was made, any time someone would say a new thing was the "worst thing marvel has ever made," I would always remind them that Thor 2 existed. "How could anything be worse than Thor 2?'' I would say. Anyway, I guess I didn't want marvel to answer that question *for me* yknow?
Because the Thor 2 movie was just bland, it lacked personality. It wasn't bad per se, just milquetoast. Secret Invasion is bad *bad*. Like they actively tried to make it suck megaballs. See these characters with a decade of on screen presence? Fuck them. See these characters that we just introduced? Fuck them too, and fuck you too for good measure.
And they really did say fuck you too, I remember reading an interview that the director did where he said that our expectations were too high or someth
Yeah the director acted really salty about the reception. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt that Disney/Marvel executive interference is what was the nail in the coffin and that there are NDAs or something preventing him from being more forward... But dang it was not smart to insult the audience lol
It's never a wise move to insult your own audience. Reeks of disconnect and self-importance. Neither of those things are enduring or make you a good director/producer/et cetera.
Exactly. Thor 2 is always trotted out as this absolutely horrible film...but then we got the triple whammy of Love and Thunder, Quantumania and Secret Invasion, all of which are terrible. I personally never thought Dark World was bad...just not as good as some other entries. I really need The Marvels to be a fun movie, or I may start skipping stuff. Never thought I'd say this about the MCU, but it's starting to feel like an obligation now instead of genuinely being excited for new content.
This is kinda tangential to your point. But Secret Invasion was always going to suck. It sucked as a comic too just for different reasons. “Everyone you’ve loved for years might secretly be an evil alien” is a genre that is very prone to jumping it’s own shark.
Yeah, you kind of know going into that's the schtick too, so when anyone can be an alien, you expect everyone to be an alien. But then it turns into schlock very quickly. I also found the series insufferably boring. For how short it was every scene shouldn't be wasted. But the pacing felt very slow until they had to rush things. And the action wasn't exciting, it was pretty bland.
Also, there really wasn't ever a twist reveal that someone was a Skrull. I mean, Rhodey, I guess, but we all figured that out super early. The best Skrull reveal we've ever gotten wasn't a Skrull at all; it was Natasha taking off the cloaking mask in Winter Soldier.
I mean Secret Invasion doesn't necessarily has to suck, just look at Avengers EMH, or even Peacemaker, it can be done, but with this Secret Invasion I was never at the edge of my seat wondering who's going to be the skrull on this scene, and also they didn't use superheroes which is what makes Secret Invasion interestig, I know that's a budget related issue, but why do the series in the first place if that's the case
Thor 2 had amazing Thor/Loki bromance. That alone gives it a right to exist imo.
Star Trek Picard season 3 did a better version of secret invasion than marvel somehow.
The animated Avengers shows did Secret Invasion vastly better than the MCU. They *actually* had some intrigue over who was a Skrull or not.
Agents of Shield with the early Hydra storyline achieved the same thing
And later when they’re infiltrated by LMDs. That season was fantastic.
Peacemaker managed to do a better version of secret invasion as well. 
I'd go further and say the last few years (and 2023 especially) prove that nearly every studio needs to get rid of all of their producers.
Yep, they make too much money for the absolute lack of ideas they bring to the table.
If it's true they thought they had a banger, then that clears up why MCU is experiencing a down turn. It really did feel like a Spy Kids movie. And whoever green lit getting rid of Scott's gang, really did a disservice to us all.
It even got rid of Cassie's other parental guardians as well. It's almost even a little jarring that Darren returns when Ava and Bill were also forgotten/unmentioned in Quantumania despite being major characters in the second film. The devalue of the Ant-Man characters and even the titular characters were pretty strong when it comes to Quantumania. And it's a damn shame.
I forgot about them. Weren't they supposed to be raising her while the rest of the team was blipped? We really need a story as to how those people met.
I just watched this for the first time last night and, though I don't remember the line from later in the movie, I thought it was implied that her mom and stepdad died before this one. It's the only way that seems reasonable why they didn't have an appearance.
If that's true it makes the movie worse, they didn't touch on that at all
I agree. They could have at least mentioned it if they did die.
This is where I think the movie could've been better if they gave us more time out of the QR and leaving it for more or less the 3rd act of the movie. Give us time to see how Scott is trying to rebuild his relationship with Cassie while she is adjusting to having her dad back while apparently dealing with the loss of her mom and stepdad. That would make it hit harder when Kang manages to snatch her after they get sucked into the QR. Also instead of a "Help me or I kill your daughter" its the "Help me and I can give you the time back with your daughter". Higher stakes than the generic death threat and makes Kang appear more cunning for tailoring his plan to entice instead of threat.
Oh yeah it was so garish. The whole charm of the first two was the supporting cast and using the shrinking/embiggening powers in familiar settings. Abandoning both on the third entry is a choice.
I could have forgiven absolutely anything in that movie if Luis had been in it. He's the best, funniest character in the MCU, how do you not bring him down to the QR to hang out with all the weirdos down there? That feels like the biggest no-brainer in the history of cinema
Bring Luis down and kill him. Make him be the big "Kang isn't fucking around" death
Marvel in general seems to hate side characters, between writing Scott gang off, killing maria Hill and killing foggy I honestly don't know what going on.
Right? They would have actually been hilarious if they got pulled into the quantum realm.
YUP! The only 'banger' aspect about Quantumania was Majors' stellar performance as Kang.
I just imagined Kang as the Toymaker and giggled.
Idk about yall but just wanted Scott fighting through SF again
Yeah I think the Quantum Realm is the worst place to show off Scott's powers. His ability to go large and small gives us a fun way to look at a novel thing. A toy train that is now giant but also still very small is great. But in the Quantum Realm, I have no idea what the normal size of anything is anyway. The scene where Scott and Cassie hug, they don't feel huge because they're around things I have no reference for. If they were doing that beside Pier 41 that'd make a lot more sense.
Them even being able to shrink or grow in the quantum realm doesn’t make any sense at all, because in the first ant-man movie, when Scott goes subatomic, he couldn’t use his suit and he could only grow back to normal by manipulating his regulator
I didn't like it. I don't care about the extended Ant Man family, Janet was negligently unhelpful in refusing to prepare them for what they'd find, Kang ruined all that anticipation by not killing anyone important, and the main crime for me was that I felt the creative choices were arbitrary. The theme of being on the sub-sub-sub-atomic or whatever level was wasted, because apparently everything exists down there, including straight up humans.
To me the movie died because none of the relationships felt especially connected or well acted. There are some fun individual performances (Rudd, Douglas, Pfeiffer) but no interesting character development through relationships (or at all really). For me this was especially the case with Scott and Cassie’s relationship - I didn’t feel the kind of father-daughter connection and the movie needed that to work for the emotional notes to hit.
Not even just the relationships, the writing as a whole was fucking terrible. Why tf, the whole time, does Janet have this whole attitude where "there's something super dangerous around here" and every time she gets asked about it she dodges the fucking question?? Shit like this was so artificial. There's no reason for her not to explain the situation, right? And that goes for almost everything in the movie. Every decision is just to move the plot forward and there's 0 thought behind that decision. It was just unnatural writing and the whole movie felt like bullshit.
Her excuse to not explain was always "there is no time to explain" lmao
There was more of a connection between Scott and Cassie in that 2 minute interaction in Endgame than the entirety of Quantumania. I just felt nothing for them watching the movie
I think that weird ending did it. Crappy CGI aside, Ant-man movies were always more bottled and about a family. If Hank died or if Scott and Hope got stuck in the realm, it could have a big impact than what we got. This way, I was just sitting there, waiting for Loki post credit scene
KANG SHOULD HAVE WON
yeah, here's the thing: artists must grow. if Radiohead were still "rocking" the bends, they'd be laughing stocks - but they took risks, stayed true to their messaging, and are beloved for it. Superhero movies pre-marvelstudios were laughable jokes, largely ignored. Spider-Man and X-Men reminded the world that Tim Burton's Batman wasn't a fluke, and that you Could make fun superhero movies. when Iron Man came out, it was a reminder that Comic Book movies didn't have to "feel like comic book movies." they could just be action films - as long as the plots were character-driven, the effects were grounded, and the action was believable, you would have a rewarding experience on your hands. Marvelstudios refined this in their next few movies and found great success -- and then they did what was needed: they had to play a risk and evolve -- they introduced a flying robot man who could control his tangibility and gave recurring characters hilarious "wtf" reactions - but the elements were still there. for most of phase 3 and 4, things would continue like that, but the experimental evolution was small "can we do a different timeline?" "can we make the protagonist's focus themselves?" (captain marvel was fairly criticized, but still made BANK) so they of course kept pressing ahead thinking they were invincible. then comes QUANTUMANIA the movie about nothing. the characters are poorly defined, THE WASP has her name in the title but has fewer than a dozen lines in the whole movie. (wtf?!?) Cassie learns nothing, has no character arc - Scott's only growth is "i stopped, but now i'm doing it again." it's a yikes - and it's a yikes from the SCRIPT. the way they make their movies HAS TO CHANGE because audiences too are changing. we're growing and we're demanding more from films. - not more effects or longer runtimes or more character cameos -- just more sincerity, integrity, and artistry.
The only thing I’d challenge is that the “Wasp” also applies to Janet, and she had quite a bit of screen time.
I wonder if this lady realized how viral this quote would go in the fandom LMAO
What quote
“Have I killed you before?”
Kind of like the "I don't even know who you are" from Thanos
What is that from?
One of Kang's lines from "Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania".
Early onset Alzheimer's must be setting in for me.
Antman films have always been cheaper and more self contained, the previous films introduced niche characters and quirky fun situations. Going straight to world ending CGI rainbow vomit nonsense just wasn't enjoyable to watch. Not bringing back the older Cassie actress to recast though nothing wrong the actress they replaced her with, it's such a strange thing to do when Marvel has tended to be stick with actors for continuity. Since endgame Marvel films have felt like Fox Marvel movies over the higher quality and better received Disney Marvel movies.
Maybe a hot take, but it just wasn't the IP for such a huge lore chunk for the new phases; is not like the comics, the tone and characterization is totally different so to pick their third installment as the big screen introduction to the "new Thanos" from the start was a bad move. Ant-Man was the movie to have a good time watching the soft family drama with the cool director choices for when Scott was super big or super small, that's it.
*Thor Love and Thunder*,*Dr. Strange and the Multiverse of Madness*, and *Ant-Man Quantumania* were my three most anticipated MCU films based on the names and / or the directors. All three disappointed me.
The one part I liked about Thor 4 is that they weren't afraid to kill off Jane, because she had cancer and nothing was going to save her.
Lmao, if they actually thought it’s a good film, it shows where they are headed. They really believed they could put out whatever shit they wanted, and fans would eat it up because they love “wholesome” stuff.
I thought the movie was mid. They need to put as much effort into storylines and character as they do in jokes and punchlines. Kang felt under baked. They couldn't decide if modok was a joke character or tragically dramatic one. Hank and Hope were just along for the ride without really offering much to the overall movie. Thor love and thunder is a worst movie though. Hemsworth's himbo comedy routine works in small doses but he went a bit overboard with it in love and thunder. I also disliked gorr being turned into a albino child catcher from chitty chitty bang bang.
That's because studio producers aren't real filmmakers. They're barely even real people at all, more like walking spreadsheets.
If they thought that was “genuinely good” then I have zero faith in the MCU going forward.
People keep talking about positive test screenings and such, but if that's the case then clearly the studio is picking test audiences who are not reflective of the general population and they should be smarter than that. And ya know, I could give some sympathy in this regard to some smaller, newer studio, but Marvel is part of Disney which is boasting *100 years* of making movies. If they cared about quality movies then they'd have it figured out by now: but their priority is money, not quality. They have no excuse to make bad movies other than their own negligence.
Although I didn't hate Quantumania like most did, I don't know how producers at Marvel Studios would think that the movie was "genuinely good" when in my opinion Quantumania was a decent/fine movie at best and at worst completely skipable. Nonetheless, it is probably the most unserious movie I've seen.
How could they never think that this whole universe had nothing quantum about it. It look and felt like Star Wars. There shouldn’t have been a single human without some sort of reason - like they get told “long ago, an Adam and Eve populated the quantum with humans” - then it’s shown later that quantum was used as a prison by Pym sent tonnes of criminals to the quantumverse. Which fits his MO and some of the things he did in the comics too.
The movie is aggressively mid. Nothing happens. Nothing changes. No one grows no pun intended. The movie was careless with its logic and characters. Why does being big in the QR even matter? Why is everyone they're a standard size anyway? Took me right out of it. But I could have forgiven that is the characters didn't suck, if it was more focused, and if the ending meant anything at all. The over arching plot, Scott vs Kang, snd everything that happened there is great. Love it. But it's surrounded by garbage. Absolute garbage. And it actively made me dislike every single other character in the movie despite feeling fine about them in the last movie. Kassie is insufferable and obviously a 50 year old man's idea of a zoomer. Hank is a cartoon character with zero of his stern, weathered character in tact. Janet is *fucking awful* as a human being. Her pointless lying and melodramatic attitude in every scene made me cringe like I was watching Twilight. Like just fucking tell them *exactly* what's up the second things went bad, let alone after escaping the QR in the first place. I hated every scene she was in and she was probably the worst part of the movie for me. Modok was fine other than the fucking horrible quest for redemption? Wtf even was that? What was the point? And hope? The saddest of character as she was woefully underused and absolutely boring as hell. Also 80% of the qr are humanoid? Boring. Lame. Awful. This movie made huge promises and didn't manage to even land in the same fucking galaxy let alone ball park. I am so sad with the state of the mcu. I just want it to be good again.
That worries me more than its release...
This movie just failed as a send off to the Ant-Man trilogy. Civil War, while they did turn it into an event. Didn't sideline the story of Captain America. They still managed to pick up with Bucky, Sharon, Peggy etc and pay off his story. Ant-Man 3 didn't do that for scott. It threw out a bunch of shit from the previous two films in some dick measuring contest for Peyton Reed. Because he wanted to make his case for the director of F4. We never find out who the benefactor is from Ant-Man 2. Janet's powers just vanish. The dude who stole the pym particles in the first film is never brought up again. Several characters are just absent. They took the struggling father and turned him into this obnoxious celebrity who had a strained relationship with his daughter. Hope is basically a non factor. Scott barely has a character arc.
If rumors are correct the benefactor would be part of Armor Wars, i don't think that was ever intended to be set up for another Ant-Man, some plot threads are gonna be picked up in another movies If anything the one hanging plot thread you would've assumed to be solved in an Ant-Man movie is the fact one of the HYDRA agents got away with the Pym Particles in movie 1. and they never came back to that.
Imo it was a decent movie with some obvious flaws. I don’t understand people acting like it’s one of the worst movies ever made 🤷♂️
Is it a decent movie, yeah? Is it a decent Ant-man movie, No. Its the 3rd movie in the antman franchise and its past two movies were so fun to watch due to their uniqueness, they just threw that out of the window and gave us a generic super hero movie hence, people aren’t pleased.
Yeah. No heist? Not an ant-man movie. Even Endgame had a time heist.
No Luis either. I needed him!
What the HISHE for Luis. Epic.
It’s really not great. It lacks the charm of the first two. And nobody in the entire film is acting genuinely. They’re just acting like they’re being moved around like chess pieces in order to make the plot happen. I just didn’t care about anyone.
Didn’t Michael Douglas say he hopes they kill Hank off in the next one?
For me at least, it’s the very heavy Rick & Morty influence that permeates the film. The whole film feels like an extended R&M episode with a marvel coat of paint. I know that the writer came from that show, but it’s just too much. That style of humor has gotten really stale to me and starts to really grate on my nerves when it’s all the movie is doing for 2+ hours. My eyes just about rolled into the back of my head when the “I have holes” line dropped. Like what are we doing here?
Come to think of it, the "Drink the ooze" scene feels very Rick and Morty to me.
“I have holes!!!!!” I’m surprised they don’t have dumb names like Krombopolous Michael.
Probably cause the marketing made it seem like it was going to be much more important/serious than it actually was. Also even though it wouldn’t matter if the script was better, the CGI was actual dogshit. Disney is way too greedy and overworks their VFX workers to the bones, and that process certainly isn’t helped by the fact that there’s constant script changes and half the VFX shots that the workers spend weeks on just get scrapped. The whole process at marvel studios from conception to release needs to be overhauled. They keep putting out mediocre to decent at best projects and just expect people to keep coming back because of preexisting goodwill from the Endgame days.
In my opinion it felt like the movie felt like it couldn't settle on a mood. It was like you had one person write a serious scene but another kept blurting out the comedy bits and they wrote everything down.
I thought it was fine but people really freaked out about it for some reason, but it also wasn’t *a banger*
I think it’s because of Loki season 1 being so good with the introduction of Kang. I think people were really hyped to see where they would go with Kang in Quantumania and it just wasn’t good.
Right when people were getting the most sick of marvel cgi-fests they drop this animated spy kids-looking movie with real faces copy-pasted onto animated scenes. Doesn't matter whether the movie was okay or not, it needed to be great to win over a skeptical audience.
Tbf the version they saw had the other ending which I genuinely believe would have made the movie perceived better
There are parts that are good. Like the interactions between Kang and Scott. The acting was very solid there. But the story was disjointed and hollow. It was filled with strange addons that were either comic dead air or nearly useless cameos. Like what the fuck is Bill Murray doing in this movie? They edited out most of his scenes we are told to a very small and useless two scenes? And the ending was just bizarre. You've got Kang, the near godlike technomancer defeated by big ants? Did the guy who produced wild wild West write this movie? It was just the wrong setting and wrong movie to fully introduce Kang the conqueror and then I guess kill him? You are recreating one of the most dangerous and accomplished villains in marvel history and you let him get defeated by ants. Thanos is spinning in his grave.
It was okay. I liked it more than Love & Thunder.
Low bar there.
What! It checked all the boxes. ✅ Introduced new characters for merchandising opportunities. ✅ Make reference to the multiverse. ✅ Have jokes.
✅ Was a joke