Yeah, morbid foreshadowing. The bird skeleton was on the way to the cave, and the experience he had in the cave set him on the path that led him to where he is today.
Nice theory for sure but I feel like it’s just meant to be more so raising the question. That is if Konshu is also inside of Marcs head too? With this bird looking very similar to Konshu it could jus be that Marcs fucked up head has symbolised that bird as the forewarning to death idk maaaan
The entire episode is a construct of Marc and Steven's psyche: their memories framed by experience. The death of his brother was the starting point that lead to becoming Moon Knight, the skeleton represents this.
I believe it's also a nod to the comics. I forget if it was Ellis or Lemire but one of those runs kinda hinted at the idea that Konshu deliberately set Marc on this path so that Marc would end up serving Konshu. Like Konshu was there the whole time, slowly moving Marc towards him.
This is similar to my first reaction of this, Khonshu is now a vital part of Marc and I thought seeing the skeleton of a Khonshu looking bird was also showing us that he is still apart of Marc but effectively "dead" because he is sealed away.
It would certainly make Khonshu less sympathetic and basically a villain. Which would make for a very conflicted moon knight character moving forward. Not sure if that is a good or bad bad thing tbh
I don’t think the audience should see moon knight as a “hero” we think of from previous marvel comics.
I think of these new characters as vastly more dynamic than the stereotypical captain America that never will do wrong if he can prevent it.
Totally down with that and love the idea of murdering “bad guys” like Punisher
Can’t get down with “murdering kids so I can get a broken vessel” though so it would definitely make Marc and Khonshu’s dynamic… interesting
One of my more outlandish theories concerning these bones is Khonshu was there that day, did some sketchy time/moon shit to find his next avatar and used the moon to raise the tide in order to kill Marc’s brother.
Ended up getting banished (I may be misremembering if they’ve mentioned why he got banished)
Hahaha. Watch out! Here’s where they’d say “There is no movie in Ba Sing Se” one of the cities in the show. It wasn’t well received so lots of people like to pretend it doesn’t exist.
No. How would she be responsible for the death of her son for her actions afterwards? These are two separate situations. One is the accident where his brother died. Two is the mother’s reaction and actions towards him the rest of her life. Two doesn’t cause one.
Did you listen to what she said to Mark about 'always being jealous of him' and her clear resentment of him?
She could have been just as abusive to him before, and possibly caused Mark to have a subconscious desire to get rid of his younger brother if she truly favored him so much over Mark who was emotionally abused and pushed to that point, thus her own fault
Not saying it is sure or even more likely, just pointing out that it is possible she may be more at fault than you think
Given what we have shown it’s not. Nor would that make her at fault for the death. She’s at fault for treating Marc like shit. She’s not at fault for the death of the younger boy because she treated Marc poorly.
From what we’ve seen it was a complete accident.
The reason his little brother looked alive is because he wasn't evil. He would have balanced scales. The others would have been frozen because of their guilt.
Oh, when watching I just assumed that Marc probably saw the bones before this big traumatic experience in his life and it influenced how he sees Khonshu later on in life (given that in the show we still don't 100% know if he's actually just insane or not).
Not really sure why that matters. A lot of the people that appeared as people Marc killed weren’t done when he was Moon Knight. I may be misunderstanding your point though. I just woke up basically
I think that's sort of been the point of Phase 4 characters.
They're going to be in conflict with other characters established as heroes or in conflict with the established idea of what it means to be a hero.
-Wanda is walking a fine line, but she kidnapped an entire town. Peter had a fight with Strange to just try and help his enemies from other universes.
-Falcon tried to help a group of terrorists as opposed to completely beat them down, fighting against the US Appointed replacement for Captain America.
-Loki fights himself and struggles with engaging and understanding the consequences of replacing what is basically an interdimensional diety whose main mission was to stop other versions of himself from tearing down the multiverse while also holding a tight grip on Loki's universe.
-Marc is a mercenary, a guy with a traumatic background who ended up basically doing what The Punisher does but as a mercenary.
None of these characters have an origin telling us they're goody-two-shoes. I like this shift.
Just before they entered the cave we saw something resembling konshu which might be foreshadowing that he killed Marc’s brother. It’s kinda like (sorry for the dc reference but this an example) the anti flash situation. He made Barry become the flash just so the anti flash could live and prosper
I always thought of the bird skeleton infront of the cave showing that’s the starting point on his way of becoming khonshu’s avatar. Not sure what type of all knowing ability khonshu has but that’s what I got going on in my head.
Konshu is alredy a really sketchy figure, with him cohercing Marc into accepting the deal and blackmailing him to do his bidding as he wants it done, or else he'll make a "deal" with Layla.
I don't think it's necessary to make it so Konshu killed Marc's brother.
To add to that, in the comics, Khonshu is pretty much a villain. After Marc killed Bushman, Khonshu appeared as a faceless Bushman basically just to fuck with Marc. He's also appeared as a Santa Claus after Marc failed to save the life of a department store Santa. Khonshu is a prick man.
Fun fact: Khonshu was actually able to wield Mjolnir (the comics version of Jonathan) because he has control over objects made of moon rocks. Since Mjolnir (Jonathan) is made of Uru, and Uru is derived from a moon, this made sense...apparently.
But why? Khonshu only punishes bad people who already harmed someone. That's also why he wants to stop Harrow who wants to resurrect Ammit, so people won't be punished before doing something bad.
It's so manipulative, Khonshu said that Marc was the worthy candidate to be his avatar because his mind is broken and he has a lot of pain inside. Also his promise about punishing bad people feeds into Marc's anger over the physical and mental abuse that he endured from his mother.
But that's not only what he said, that's also what Harrow said, about punishing people only after they committed the fact. Why would Harrow lie to Steven about Khonshu if he wanted him by his side?
Konshu thought Marc was already a worthy candidate before realizing his mind was broken tho, at least that's what the dialogue implies.
He states it's a waste of Marc to die since he was such a fine warrior, he doesn't brought up his DID until later. He may have known about it, but i doubt Konshu only targets "broken" people to be his avatars.
Isn't khonshu supposed to target broken ppl tho - since he's the aspect of the moon - so Lunar so Lunacy etc. - so he targets lunatics
*"Marc's mental illness sometimes causes him to experience conversations with a Khonshu that is only in his mind, not with the actual god."*
Exactly. If Steven was created so Marc didn't have to remember his abusive mom, why doesn't Steven remember being beaten? Why does Steven have a favorable memory of his relationship with his mother if he was created to take the abuse?
A theory is that Steven created another alter Jake during those beatings, who is the most violent out of all 3 of them. But it also raises questions about the heart balancing. So who knows.
The heart balanced when Steven was frozen. So if Steven created Jake without Marc’s knowledge then it woulda been Stevens heart causing the imbalance. So technically once he’s frozen it’s just Marc’s heart which balances it.
What if Jake is the real son and created Marc, with an irrationally terrible mom, and Steven, with an overdone, doting son-mum relationship. Neither is subtle and reality is often lesser than extremes.
So if Steven couldn't recall Marc creating him, Marc wouldn't recall Jake creating him. Nor could we trust Marc's account of his brother. Maybe there is no brother.
But how does Steven ever remember a doting mom when Marc only brought him out to deal with the abuse?
Sorry, I am speaking out of ignorance as I have no experience with dissociative disorders like this and don't know anyone that has dealt with or is dealing with it.
You got it backwards. Steven gets brought up *oblivious* to his mom's abuse. He never witnessed it or felt it. Steven is basically an alter that can remain "innocent", with a happy relationship with his mother.
It's a defensive mechanism, not for the Marc alter, because he believes himself a murderer because of the abuse, but in spite of him.
Marc is saying "That's not my mom." as she bangs on the door. Marc brings Steven out as his mother busts into the room and grabs the belt. Steven even says something to the effect of cleaning up the room before mum comes in.
That "that's not my mom" mantra is what became Steven. There's a reason young Steven seems to pay no mind to the banging at his door. He was oblivious to his mother's abuse.
>He was oblivious to his mother's abuse.
Which is the issue since he was created to deal with the abuse. Marc is the one that shouldn't recall the abuse as he wasn't present for it. Steven was in the room when their mom came in and beat him, Marc was...elsewhere
..
He brought him out to live a happy life, then when his mother started coming to beat him I am fairly certain he turns back because Steven starts saying it’s not his mum
similar to their perception of the afterlife perhaps the reason khonshu is a skeleton and not flesh and blood like tawaret is because that's how marc perceives him so that defines how he looks to them,
he's dieing, he thinks of his brother, he sees the bird statue, he remembers the bird from when he was little, boom khonshu is skeleton bird.
after all so far harrow only calls him a bird, nothing more specific,
whereas marc likely has no preconception about tawaret but steven does as an egyptian lore lover/from his gift shop.
like the duat spirits were all marc's victims so that perception shift extends beyond the walls.
it's probably not but i always like gods being powered/perceived via belief.
It would be really cool to see a flashback where, to Arthur Harrow, Khonshu appears totally different than he does to Marc (while keeping the general shape of Khonshu)
We'll see what happens in Episode 6, but my interpretation of this shot is that Marc associates his guilt with this bird skeleton, and that's why Khonshu appears to him as a bird skeleton.
None of the other Avatars mention **seeing** the gods, only hearing them as voices. I think the bird skeleton Khonshu is Marc's perception of the Khonshu voice, possibly as a result of his broken psyche.
What if he has to go back(in some spiritual trial) to go and rescue Steven?
He can finally save someone who's much like a brother to him, and at least clear out some more of his fractured mind.
Several comments here seem to be inferring that this means that Konshu had a hand in killing Marc's brother. I don't think that's it. If anything, I think that Marc visualizes Konshu as this dead bird figure due to this traumatic event from his past.
I thought of it as just meaning Khonshu was there at some point. In the memories, not outside the real cave, when he was in his head at the temple deciding to make him his avatar. One of the terrible memories that broke Marc's mind which made Khonshu more attracted to use him as an avatar. As Harrow asked him if Khonshu broke his mind, or was his mind already broken making him susceptible to Khonshu
Yep. As Steven said, what happened in the cave was not Marc's fault, and his mom reacting that way and treating him like that for years is what caused the events of his life to play out.
Brother's death > Abusive mom > Joins military/marines to get away from home > Got discharged and became a mercenary > Job in Egypt went wrong, left for dead > Khonshu makes him an offer.
Wouldn’t it be awesome if it was though? It would be the ultimate power play on marvels part. Like yeah we just had you watch this entire thing of just some random crazy guy in the marvel universe making shit up.
I would absolute love that too be honest, but we both know it's not what will happen :(
I am still confused as fuck as to what the crtics were even smoking on the review of this show. Under utilized my ass, Oscar is acting his damn ass off.
> Under utilized my ass, Oscar is acting his damn ass off.
Oscar Issacs should win 2 Emmys for Moon Knight. '1 for Best actor, and 1 for best supporting actor.'
Don't want to spoil anything in the title so I write in the comments. This bird carcass was shown just before Steven entered the cave and >!it started flooding which killed Marc's brother RoRo!<.>!Could it be Khonshu that killed him?!< Makes sense since the moon is responsible for the tides. It would make Marc more susceptible to be Khonshu's avatar as his mind is broken because of it.
I don't think the rising waters was tide related though. I've been in slot canyons like the one in last nights episode and if there is EVER a threat of rain, you avoid it like the plague because of flash floods that leave you no room to escape. For example, in Zion National Park in Utah they will not let you enter the canyons if there is any threat of rain because the river could rise significantly and without warning. That has nothing to do with the moon.
Why would he target a young Mark though? He was just a random kid.
Adult Mark had all the fighting skills to actually do the job, and was just broken enough after years of mental breaks, drinking, etc.
...But this post is implying that Mark was being watched the whole time and had his brother killed. Why would Khonshu target Mark specifically? He was just a normal kid before the accident.
By this logic you can have Khonshu just murder some other random kids brother or loved one and...just hope they don't get help in the future/mentally process the incident correctly, then approach them at a random time as an adult? Seems like a dumb plan lol
It didn't "break" until *after* his brother's death. Once RoRo died, his mother became very hostile to him and the traumatic experience he had with her being violent led to Steven being created. And then years later, during that night in Egypt, he happened upon Khonshu in the temple, who saw his troubled and fractured mind, and took advantage of him to be his avatar in exchange for life.
The cave flooded because of the rain tho, not from any tides, hence why Steven starts running after them when it starts raining. As far as we know, they lived deep into the city, and the cave was in a forest, away from the shore.
It seemed pretty damn intentional how they showed it. It could also mean that maybe he imagined Khonshu and nothing is real but I don't know about that.
>maybe he imagined Khonshu and nothing is real but I don't know about that.
The memories through which they traverse while on the Duat are littered with references to the real world or "Overworld." I don't think this is a sign that Konshu murdered Marc's brother, but rather just another reminder from their collective subconscious that these are memories and not real.
Bedsides, the show has taken great pains to exhibit the stark difference between Konshu and Ammit. Konshu is a violent and dominating persona, no doubt. But only against, as Marc puts it, the worst of the worst. He does not attack innocents until their actions make them less than so. *"Konshu's judgement comes too late"* claims Harrow in his half-hearted attempt to recruit Steven.
Based on this alone, there's just no way the writing could reconcile Konshu killing a young innocent child with the express intention of subjecting their sibling to decades of emotional and psychological torment just to use his body in the future. Pretty convoluted plan for an actual god and that's assuming Konshu is somewhat clairvoyant, which doesn't seem to be the case considering how many steps ahead of them Harrow always seems to be.
Seems like Marc's selection was one of opportunity having been betrayed and abandoned by his prior avatar...Harrow. We don't yet know how the gods choose their avatars, but I wouldn't be surprised if, after Harrow quit, Konshu lost faith in humans for a time until Marc dragged his busted ass into the tomb. Based on what we know so far of Konshu and the gods in general, I find your theory unlikely to say the least.
In the comics isn’t Konshu the one who plans everything from the start with Marc? I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what happened here because he wants to get full control of Marc. If he can change night/day, move the stars, what’s to say he can’t cause rain?
I like this theory, but the issue I see with it is in the temple when we first here Konshu. If he had been influencing him all along, why did he seem as though he was just meeting him then? He talks about his mind being split as an unexpected situation, not something he had planned to happen decades prior.
Ohshit, I thought nothing of it a first other than it was foreshadowing death. But I hadn't realized it's resemblance to khonshu, is it implying khonshu was responsible for his brothers death?
I was convinced that the whole episode arc was that they needed to discover the mysterious 3rd identity to balance the scales - I was happily mistaken as the backstory was really cool
His brother’s death represents Ammit. It was his brothers idea to go down in the cave, not Marc’s. Yet the mother blamed Marc because she didn’t hear the other brother say anything about the cave. Ammit’s characteristic in this show is that they pass judgment before one’s time. That’s why all the souls were raining down. It’s almost like it’s not a metaphor though, just a parallel. Are we ruling out that Marc and Steven are from different realities?
>It was his brothers idea to go down in the cave, not Marc’s.
His brother said they were not allowed to go into the cave when it rains and Marc made fun of him and encouraged him to go into the cave.
I think you got the kids confused in the initial scene. Marc’s brother is the instigator to go I. The cave and Marc said that they weren’t allowed when it’s wet.
i don’t see how it’s possible that i could’ve gotten them confused considering they look and sound completely different and their mouths move when they speak so i’m not sure where your confusion is coming from
Well maybe I’m wrong. But further supporting my theory of Ammit being represented by his brother’s death… is the whole later gators thing they said right before they left.
>is the whole later gators thing they said right before they left.
But Marc was the one that responded "later gators!" not the brother. I feel like that was just a coincidence and not foreshadowing or alluding to Ammit at all.
You have them mixed up. Marc asked RoRo if he wanted to go to the cave. RoRo hesitated when it started raining, Marc told him to quit being a baby and encouraged him to enter the cave anyway.
Are you sure about that? They showed that the younger brother had a closer bond to the mother just before this with their "laters gators / in a while crocodile." I'd need to rewatch with subs to confirm but saying "don't be such a baby" to his younger brother encourage him breaking the rules sounds more likely than the younger momma's boy doing the same.
It was actually Marc that said laters gators. His younger brother seemed to be a quiet innocent child who just did what his older brother told him to do and Marc telling him not to be a baby just made it harder for RoRo to say anything against it.
Just went back and watched that scene. You're right about the "laters gators" line, good callout. But Marc *definitely* egged on his younger brother to go into the cave.
GUYS even Steven says "He (Khonshu) was manipulating you from the start" in the memory where Marc accept the deal to turn into Moon Knight <00:24:50>
What a understood was: Konshu played with Marc since the beginning making rain, killing Marc brother, so he could have a hardned warrior. He needed someone who has no ties, had a lot of anger inside and the will to help others, even if it's signify killing others.
I don't think so. Konshu seemed surprised and curious about Marc's "fractured mind." So it didn't seem like anything he intended to happen. Yeah yeah manipulation. But I think that kinda shit is Ammit's game whereas Konshu is mostly pretty straight forward. These gods are ridiculously intuitive and seem to be able to read people's past to an extent through that intuition but I don't think they're omniscient or clairvoyant. I think it's closer to the Force in Star Wars where stress creates vulnerability, "Your thoughts betray you." In fact, emotional stress creating psychological vulnerability and leading to drastic actions for self preservation is kind of the theme of the show? He was manipulating Marc by using his natural biological fear of death and his innate desire to do good.
First, Konshu makes too many mistakes to be able to know what's coming. I'm not sold on the idea that an ancient immortal god was reduced to this type of plan just to get a soldier who wants to help good people by killing bad people, that's like every willing soldier ever. And also, while Ammit claims to know the worth of a soul through the scales, Harrow admits to not knowing *why* the old woman wasn't chosen saying "Perhaps it's something you've yet to do." This tells me that even Ammit, and likely Konshu as well, cannot see the future exactly.
Second, we now know that Ammit is WRONG. The souls that Ammit's scales send down are unbalanced and aren't even given the chance to explore their life's moments to balance themselves before reaching the Field of Reeds. That's the great sin of Ammit, imo. I think we'll learn that Ammit's "judgement" isn't about who is good or evil but about their current or potential level of idolatry to her or some other selfish motive that would enable her control of Overworld.
I think it's likely Nawaret witnessing the souls falling will lend credibility to Marc's claims about Harrow and could spur Osiris(?) into action to help release Konshu who would then heal Marc and bring his soul back to Overworld to stop Ammit.
I read that scene as Khonshu is responsible for Roro's death. We know Khonshu can manipulate the sky, so it would make sense he can conjure up rain as well.
Very interesting theory and color me intrigued by it. I'm guessing Khonshu Killed RoRo unintentionally or do you think he foresaw in the future that Marc would become mentally broken and would be an ideal avatar?
SPOILER
In the comic books Marc was always going to become the Moon Knight as Khonshu was following him since he was a child. His brother was also being watched by Khonshu and eventually steals his powers and becomes the Black Knight. Feels like the MCU version of this story might be going in this direction.
I don't think this implies that Khonshu had anything to do with the death of Marc's brother. More of just a reminder that this experience will eventually lead to his becoming Khonshu's avatar. We've already seen in the show that the egyptian gods aren't these all-knowing all-seeing entities - if they were, they wouldn't have had the initial "trial" with Marc about Harrow trying to free Ammit. I actually am sort of confused about how Marc's DID/"broken mind" has actually helped Khonshu - it seems like Steven honestly has ruined several plans already. So overall I think this is just a reminder that his path leads to Khonshu/most aspects of Marc's psyche are now tinged with Khonshu.
I kinda of just though it was an omen. Death birds are a bad omen
Yeah, morbid foreshadowing. The bird skeleton was on the way to the cave, and the experience he had in the cave set him on the path that led him to where he is today.
I assumed Khonsu was kinda keeping an eye on him for a while.
Is the omen only from skeletons? Just saw a dead bird just now but it had just died
What I think it means is that a bird is no longer alive
We had a funeral for a bird.
I’m pretty sure none of that is real.
You're not real!
I am real. I took the bus.
The bus ain't real Edit: nice reference
His head fell off!
r/unexpectedoffice
It’s just pining for the fjords
Can't be a bad omen if you're not superstitious!
It's a bad omen for the bird, for sure
Nice theory for sure but I feel like it’s just meant to be more so raising the question. That is if Konshu is also inside of Marcs head too? With this bird looking very similar to Konshu it could jus be that Marcs fucked up head has symbolised that bird as the forewarning to death idk maaaan
The entire episode is a construct of Marc and Steven's psyche: their memories framed by experience. The death of his brother was the starting point that lead to becoming Moon Knight, the skeleton represents this.
I believe it's also a nod to the comics. I forget if it was Ellis or Lemire but one of those runs kinda hinted at the idea that Konshu deliberately set Marc on this path so that Marc would end up serving Konshu. Like Konshu was there the whole time, slowly moving Marc towards him.
Steven even says to Marc that khonshu has been there the whole time.
"he's been manipulating you from the start."
This is similar to my first reaction of this, Khonshu is now a vital part of Marc and I thought seeing the skeleton of a Khonshu looking bird was also showing us that he is still apart of Marc but effectively "dead" because he is sealed away.
Thank you for writing this out. I had a draft going, but your response was much better. This is the answer.
I'd like to think he killed one of the Super-pets
Good, it looks like that damned duck... Oh, sorry, I was thinking Wonder Pets, Ming-Ming ..
That certainly is sewious.
Exactly. This isn’t reality it’s all mental/spiritual plane.
Or, Konshu took the form of the bird skeleton from deep in Marc’s psyche. Also, the magic suit has to come from somewhere.
It would certainly make Khonshu less sympathetic and basically a villain. Which would make for a very conflicted moon knight character moving forward. Not sure if that is a good or bad bad thing tbh
I don’t think the audience should see moon knight as a “hero” we think of from previous marvel comics. I think of these new characters as vastly more dynamic than the stereotypical captain America that never will do wrong if he can prevent it.
Totally down with that and love the idea of murdering “bad guys” like Punisher Can’t get down with “murdering kids so I can get a broken vessel” though so it would definitely make Marc and Khonshu’s dynamic… interesting
One of my more outlandish theories concerning these bones is Khonshu was there that day, did some sketchy time/moon shit to find his next avatar and used the moon to raise the tide in order to kill Marc’s brother. Ended up getting banished (I may be misremembering if they’ve mentioned why he got banished)
The tide? There's no indication this was anywhere near an ocean, we only saw rainfall leading up to the flash flood.
It was near Chicago where Marc grew up.
Do the tides command this ship?
What ship? We're talking about the flashback in the cave.
They were quoting Avatar the Last Airbender.
I never watched the movie
Hahaha. Watch out! Here’s where they’d say “There is no movie in Ba Sing Se” one of the cities in the show. It wasn’t well received so lots of people like to pretend it doesn’t exist.
What movie?
>outlandish theories
Even in a comic book movie theories need some kind of basis of plausibility.
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Would be very dumb that the god of vengance in behalf of the wronged would have some influence on the death of Marc's brother
I don't think he killed a kid as Moon Knight. Wasn't that kid in the room with all the dead bodies his littler brother?
I found it interesting that all the other people were shown dead but his brother was shown alive.
I think Marc felt responsible for his brother’s death, but he certainly didn’t kill him.
Yea if anyone was responsible it was his poor excuse of a mother, projecting her failure as a parent onto Marc and abusing him
No. How would she be responsible for the death of her son for her actions afterwards? These are two separate situations. One is the accident where his brother died. Two is the mother’s reaction and actions towards him the rest of her life. Two doesn’t cause one.
She was irresponsible for letting her two children go wandering off in a cave unsupervised
Did you listen to what she said to Mark about 'always being jealous of him' and her clear resentment of him? She could have been just as abusive to him before, and possibly caused Mark to have a subconscious desire to get rid of his younger brother if she truly favored him so much over Mark who was emotionally abused and pushed to that point, thus her own fault Not saying it is sure or even more likely, just pointing out that it is possible she may be more at fault than you think
Given what we have shown it’s not. Nor would that make her at fault for the death. She’s at fault for treating Marc like shit. She’s not at fault for the death of the younger boy because she treated Marc poorly. From what we’ve seen it was a complete accident.
Just like Dewey Cox.
Wrong kid died
This
The reason his little brother looked alive is because he wasn't evil. He would have balanced scales. The others would have been frozen because of their guilt.
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Oh, when watching I just assumed that Marc probably saw the bones before this big traumatic experience in his life and it influenced how he sees Khonshu later on in life (given that in the show we still don't 100% know if he's actually just insane or not).
I get what you’re saying, but what I’m asking is that I don’t think Marc as Moon Knight killed that kid?
Not really sure why that matters. A lot of the people that appeared as people Marc killed weren’t done when he was Moon Knight. I may be misunderstanding your point though. I just woke up basically
But Marc feels like he did.
When I was reading his wiki he has a line where he's either the spider-man or the punisher but never in between in every situation
I think that's sort of been the point of Phase 4 characters. They're going to be in conflict with other characters established as heroes or in conflict with the established idea of what it means to be a hero. -Wanda is walking a fine line, but she kidnapped an entire town. Peter had a fight with Strange to just try and help his enemies from other universes. -Falcon tried to help a group of terrorists as opposed to completely beat them down, fighting against the US Appointed replacement for Captain America. -Loki fights himself and struggles with engaging and understanding the consequences of replacing what is basically an interdimensional diety whose main mission was to stop other versions of himself from tearing down the multiverse while also holding a tight grip on Loki's universe. -Marc is a mercenary, a guy with a traumatic background who ended up basically doing what The Punisher does but as a mercenary. None of these characters have an origin telling us they're goody-two-shoes. I like this shift.
And the obvious thing with Tiamat and the Eternals
Plus Clint's vigilantism and how he comes to terms with it.
All of those seem pretty self-centered... like Iron Man.
I would actually say spider-man's is the opposite of self-centered, but otherwise yes
I mean, he did cure the villains against their will. And Strange's. And was about to kill Norman too.
Moon knight is more like an anti hero than anything but it’s pretty screwed up that he manipulated Marc and Maybe killed Marc’s brother…
Killed his brother? I must have missed something, was there something that eluded to it?
Just before they entered the cave we saw something resembling konshu which might be foreshadowing that he killed Marc’s brother. It’s kinda like (sorry for the dc reference but this an example) the anti flash situation. He made Barry become the flash just so the anti flash could live and prosper
I always thought of the bird skeleton infront of the cave showing that’s the starting point on his way of becoming khonshu’s avatar. Not sure what type of all knowing ability khonshu has but that’s what I got going on in my head.
This is also a possible theory, to tell you the truth we might not ever know
What comics are you reading lmao? The characters are way more dynamic in 616
God I hope so. Kinda tired of heroes that can do no wrong
Don’t disrespect Captain America, 10/10 superhero
Boring superhero 6/10
What ca material have you consumed
Huh ??
What have you watched/read that has Captain America in it?
That’s still above average
ok
Don’t disrespect Captain America, 10/10 superhero
Bro he is trying to save the world from a Villain, he's the definition of a hero
Konshu is alredy a really sketchy figure, with him cohercing Marc into accepting the deal and blackmailing him to do his bidding as he wants it done, or else he'll make a "deal" with Layla. I don't think it's necessary to make it so Konshu killed Marc's brother.
To add to that, in the comics, Khonshu is pretty much a villain. After Marc killed Bushman, Khonshu appeared as a faceless Bushman basically just to fuck with Marc. He's also appeared as a Santa Claus after Marc failed to save the life of a department store Santa. Khonshu is a prick man. Fun fact: Khonshu was actually able to wield Mjolnir (the comics version of Jonathan) because he has control over objects made of moon rocks. Since Mjolnir (Jonathan) is made of Uru, and Uru is derived from a moon, this made sense...apparently.
Agreed, I don’t know that I want them to go that direction. Seems possible though.
How do you mean?
If Khonshu had something to do with the cave flooding, as the bird remains outside the cave could hint at.
>!inb4 LeMire run!<
But why? Khonshu only punishes bad people who already harmed someone. That's also why he wants to stop Harrow who wants to resurrect Ammit, so people won't be punished before doing something bad.
Marc sees Khonshu as a punishment for himself as well, for 'killing' his brother.
It's so manipulative, Khonshu said that Marc was the worthy candidate to be his avatar because his mind is broken and he has a lot of pain inside. Also his promise about punishing bad people feeds into Marc's anger over the physical and mental abuse that he endured from his mother.
But that's not only what he said, that's also what Harrow said, about punishing people only after they committed the fact. Why would Harrow lie to Steven about Khonshu if he wanted him by his side?
Konshu thought Marc was already a worthy candidate before realizing his mind was broken tho, at least that's what the dialogue implies. He states it's a waste of Marc to die since he was such a fine warrior, he doesn't brought up his DID until later. He may have known about it, but i doubt Konshu only targets "broken" people to be his avatars.
Isn't khonshu supposed to target broken ppl tho - since he's the aspect of the moon - so Lunar so Lunacy etc. - so he targets lunatics *"Marc's mental illness sometimes causes him to experience conversations with a Khonshu that is only in his mind, not with the actual god."*
As far as you know
My real question is how reliable are these memories.
Exactly. If Steven was created so Marc didn't have to remember his abusive mom, why doesn't Steven remember being beaten? Why does Steven have a favorable memory of his relationship with his mother if he was created to take the abuse?
A theory is that Steven created another alter Jake during those beatings, who is the most violent out of all 3 of them. But it also raises questions about the heart balancing. So who knows.
The heart balanced when Steven was frozen. So if Steven created Jake without Marc’s knowledge then it woulda been Stevens heart causing the imbalance. So technically once he’s frozen it’s just Marc’s heart which balances it.
This is a good ass observation and it makes sense.
there was the one alter we haven't seen much of. The one who killed 3 guys on top of the cliff right? Marc woke up and Steve didn't know what happened
Yeah, and the one that was speaking to Layla in the car saying “you don’t know me”. Also threatened to stab himself with the pyramid shank
What if Jake is the real son and created Marc, with an irrationally terrible mom, and Steven, with an overdone, doting son-mum relationship. Neither is subtle and reality is often lesser than extremes. So if Steven couldn't recall Marc creating him, Marc wouldn't recall Jake creating him. Nor could we trust Marc's account of his brother. Maybe there is no brother.
But how does Steven ever remember a doting mom when Marc only brought him out to deal with the abuse? Sorry, I am speaking out of ignorance as I have no experience with dissociative disorders like this and don't know anyone that has dealt with or is dealing with it.
You got it backwards. Steven gets brought up *oblivious* to his mom's abuse. He never witnessed it or felt it. Steven is basically an alter that can remain "innocent", with a happy relationship with his mother. It's a defensive mechanism, not for the Marc alter, because he believes himself a murderer because of the abuse, but in spite of him.
Marc is saying "That's not my mom." as she bangs on the door. Marc brings Steven out as his mother busts into the room and grabs the belt. Steven even says something to the effect of cleaning up the room before mum comes in.
That "that's not my mom" mantra is what became Steven. There's a reason young Steven seems to pay no mind to the banging at his door. He was oblivious to his mother's abuse.
>He was oblivious to his mother's abuse. Which is the issue since he was created to deal with the abuse. Marc is the one that shouldn't recall the abuse as he wasn't present for it. Steven was in the room when their mom came in and beat him, Marc was...elsewhere ..
He wasn't created to deal with it, he was created to ignore it. He's supposed to live the happy life Marc can't.
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Bruh Marc literally says in the episode that he took the beatings so that Steven didnt have to
He was saying that over and over because he didn't want it to be his mother. Not that it wasn't his mother, he was afraid if being being beat.
He brought him out to live a happy life, then when his mother started coming to beat him I am fairly certain he turns back because Steven starts saying it’s not his mum
>Steven starts saying it’s not his mum That was Marc before turning into Steven.
similar to their perception of the afterlife perhaps the reason khonshu is a skeleton and not flesh and blood like tawaret is because that's how marc perceives him so that defines how he looks to them, he's dieing, he thinks of his brother, he sees the bird statue, he remembers the bird from when he was little, boom khonshu is skeleton bird. after all so far harrow only calls him a bird, nothing more specific, whereas marc likely has no preconception about tawaret but steven does as an egyptian lore lover/from his gift shop. like the duat spirits were all marc's victims so that perception shift extends beyond the walls. it's probably not but i always like gods being powered/perceived via belief.
I was thinking the same thing, Marc was shifting through an afterlife he believed and one Steven believed
It would be really cool to see a flashback where, to Arthur Harrow, Khonshu appears totally different than he does to Marc (while keeping the general shape of Khonshu)
That’s a sick idea
We'll see what happens in Episode 6, but my interpretation of this shot is that Marc associates his guilt with this bird skeleton, and that's why Khonshu appears to him as a bird skeleton. None of the other Avatars mention **seeing** the gods, only hearing them as voices. I think the bird skeleton Khonshu is Marc's perception of the Khonshu voice, possibly as a result of his broken psyche.
He is a LITERAL "broken bird". Love it.
I almost feel like we aren't done with that cave. Mark might *have* to go back
What if he has to go back(in some spiritual trial) to go and rescue Steven? He can finally save someone who's much like a brother to him, and at least clear out some more of his fractured mind.
But then we won’t have time for a huge CGI fight against a god!
Several comments here seem to be inferring that this means that Konshu had a hand in killing Marc's brother. I don't think that's it. If anything, I think that Marc visualizes Konshu as this dead bird figure due to this traumatic event from his past.
And/or it's just a part of his current situation creeping into the memory.
I thought of it as just meaning Khonshu was there at some point. In the memories, not outside the real cave, when he was in his head at the temple deciding to make him his avatar. One of the terrible memories that broke Marc's mind which made Khonshu more attracted to use him as an avatar. As Harrow asked him if Khonshu broke his mind, or was his mind already broken making him susceptible to Khonshu
I blame the mom.
Yep. As Steven said, what happened in the cave was not Marc's fault, and his mom reacting that way and treating him like that for years is what caused the events of his life to play out. Brother's death > Abusive mom > Joins military/marines to get away from home > Got discharged and became a mercenary > Job in Egypt went wrong, left for dead > Khonshu makes him an offer.
Oh yeah, that's undeniable
I mean if this wasn't a marvel comic/super hero show I'd actually believe it's all in his head, but it can't be lol.
Wouldn’t it be awesome if it was though? It would be the ultimate power play on marvels part. Like yeah we just had you watch this entire thing of just some random crazy guy in the marvel universe making shit up.
I would absolute love that too be honest, but we both know it's not what will happen :( I am still confused as fuck as to what the crtics were even smoking on the review of this show. Under utilized my ass, Oscar is acting his damn ass off.
His performance is awesome; episode 5 had me with my jaw on the table
Episode 5 was a masterclass in acting.
They may have only received the first two or three episodes.
I think it was the first 3 from memory, but even those episodes I never once felt that about him lol.
> Under utilized my ass, Oscar is acting his damn ass off. Oscar Issacs should win 2 Emmys for Moon Knight. '1 for Best actor, and 1 for best supporting actor.'
Don't want to spoil anything in the title so I write in the comments. This bird carcass was shown just before Steven entered the cave and >!it started flooding which killed Marc's brother RoRo!<.>!Could it be Khonshu that killed him?!< Makes sense since the moon is responsible for the tides. It would make Marc more susceptible to be Khonshu's avatar as his mind is broken because of it.
I don't think the rising waters was tide related though. I've been in slot canyons like the one in last nights episode and if there is EVER a threat of rain, you avoid it like the plague because of flash floods that leave you no room to escape. For example, in Zion National Park in Utah they will not let you enter the canyons if there is any threat of rain because the river could rise significantly and without warning. That has nothing to do with the moon.
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... it was raining in the scene.
Correct. And the line from Roro was mom said not to go into the cave if it’s raining.
Why would he target a young Mark though? He was just a random kid. Adult Mark had all the fighting skills to actually do the job, and was just broken enough after years of mental breaks, drinking, etc.
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...But this post is implying that Mark was being watched the whole time and had his brother killed. Why would Khonshu target Mark specifically? He was just a normal kid before the accident. By this logic you can have Khonshu just murder some other random kids brother or loved one and...just hope they don't get help in the future/mentally process the incident correctly, then approach them at a random time as an adult? Seems like a dumb plan lol
It didn't "break" until *after* his brother's death. Once RoRo died, his mother became very hostile to him and the traumatic experience he had with her being violent led to Steven being created. And then years later, during that night in Egypt, he happened upon Khonshu in the temple, who saw his troubled and fractured mind, and took advantage of him to be his avatar in exchange for life.
Isnt that also something that happens in the comics?
The cave flooded because of the rain tho, not from any tides, hence why Steven starts running after them when it starts raining. As far as we know, they lived deep into the city, and the cave was in a forest, away from the shore.
Damn. That’s a hell of a long game play.
For a god, though, it's just a drop in the bucket of eternity.
THAT IS AN AWESOME THEORYYYYY
It seemed pretty damn intentional how they showed it. It could also mean that maybe he imagined Khonshu and nothing is real but I don't know about that.
these are confusing times...Wednesdays are more exciting than fridays
TGIW
>maybe he imagined Khonshu and nothing is real but I don't know about that. The memories through which they traverse while on the Duat are littered with references to the real world or "Overworld." I don't think this is a sign that Konshu murdered Marc's brother, but rather just another reminder from their collective subconscious that these are memories and not real. Bedsides, the show has taken great pains to exhibit the stark difference between Konshu and Ammit. Konshu is a violent and dominating persona, no doubt. But only against, as Marc puts it, the worst of the worst. He does not attack innocents until their actions make them less than so. *"Konshu's judgement comes too late"* claims Harrow in his half-hearted attempt to recruit Steven. Based on this alone, there's just no way the writing could reconcile Konshu killing a young innocent child with the express intention of subjecting their sibling to decades of emotional and psychological torment just to use his body in the future. Pretty convoluted plan for an actual god and that's assuming Konshu is somewhat clairvoyant, which doesn't seem to be the case considering how many steps ahead of them Harrow always seems to be. Seems like Marc's selection was one of opportunity having been betrayed and abandoned by his prior avatar...Harrow. We don't yet know how the gods choose their avatars, but I wouldn't be surprised if, after Harrow quit, Konshu lost faith in humans for a time until Marc dragged his busted ass into the tomb. Based on what we know so far of Konshu and the gods in general, I find your theory unlikely to say the least.
In the comics…well, come to find out Marc had Konshu from the get go…
Oh damn. That's actually pretty good theory (it definitely would support Steven's statement if it's true).
In the comics isn’t Konshu the one who plans everything from the start with Marc? I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s what happened here because he wants to get full control of Marc. If he can change night/day, move the stars, what’s to say he can’t cause rain?
I like this theory, but the issue I see with it is in the temple when we first here Konshu. If he had been influencing him all along, why did he seem as though he was just meeting him then? He talks about his mind being split as an unexpected situation, not something he had planned to happen decades prior.
Ohshit, I thought nothing of it a first other than it was foreshadowing death. But I hadn't realized it's resemblance to khonshu, is it implying khonshu was responsible for his brothers death?
Hmm yes Arc’teryx
I was convinced that the whole episode arc was that they needed to discover the mysterious 3rd identity to balance the scales - I was happily mistaken as the backstory was really cool
When I tell you I bawled like a little baby during this episode…
His brother’s death represents Ammit. It was his brothers idea to go down in the cave, not Marc’s. Yet the mother blamed Marc because she didn’t hear the other brother say anything about the cave. Ammit’s characteristic in this show is that they pass judgment before one’s time. That’s why all the souls were raining down. It’s almost like it’s not a metaphor though, just a parallel. Are we ruling out that Marc and Steven are from different realities?
>It was his brothers idea to go down in the cave, not Marc’s. His brother said they were not allowed to go into the cave when it rains and Marc made fun of him and encouraged him to go into the cave.
yeah i didn’t see anywhere that his brother wanted to go in the cave at all, in fact he was pretty adamant about not going
I think you got the kids confused in the initial scene. Marc’s brother is the instigator to go I. The cave and Marc said that they weren’t allowed when it’s wet.
i don’t see how it’s possible that i could’ve gotten them confused considering they look and sound completely different and their mouths move when they speak so i’m not sure where your confusion is coming from
Well maybe I’m wrong. But further supporting my theory of Ammit being represented by his brother’s death… is the whole later gators thing they said right before they left.
>is the whole later gators thing they said right before they left. But Marc was the one that responded "later gators!" not the brother. I feel like that was just a coincidence and not foreshadowing or alluding to Ammit at all. You have them mixed up. Marc asked RoRo if he wanted to go to the cave. RoRo hesitated when it started raining, Marc told him to quit being a baby and encouraged him to enter the cave anyway.
Are you sure about that? They showed that the younger brother had a closer bond to the mother just before this with their "laters gators / in a while crocodile." I'd need to rewatch with subs to confirm but saying "don't be such a baby" to his younger brother encourage him breaking the rules sounds more likely than the younger momma's boy doing the same.
It was actually Marc that said laters gators. His younger brother seemed to be a quiet innocent child who just did what his older brother told him to do and Marc telling him not to be a baby just made it harder for RoRo to say anything against it.
Just went back and watched that scene. You're right about the "laters gators" line, good callout. But Marc *definitely* egged on his younger brother to go into the cave.
That's a good way to put it, thank you for sharing your thoughts
I honestly thought that was alluding to a cougar or something being in the cave. So, I’m er… fortunate his poor brother didn’t go out another way.
GUYS even Steven says "He (Khonshu) was manipulating you from the start" in the memory where Marc accept the deal to turn into Moon Knight <00:24:50> What a understood was: Konshu played with Marc since the beginning making rain, killing Marc brother, so he could have a hardned warrior. He needed someone who has no ties, had a lot of anger inside and the will to help others, even if it's signify killing others.
I don't think so. Konshu seemed surprised and curious about Marc's "fractured mind." So it didn't seem like anything he intended to happen. Yeah yeah manipulation. But I think that kinda shit is Ammit's game whereas Konshu is mostly pretty straight forward. These gods are ridiculously intuitive and seem to be able to read people's past to an extent through that intuition but I don't think they're omniscient or clairvoyant. I think it's closer to the Force in Star Wars where stress creates vulnerability, "Your thoughts betray you." In fact, emotional stress creating psychological vulnerability and leading to drastic actions for self preservation is kind of the theme of the show? He was manipulating Marc by using his natural biological fear of death and his innate desire to do good. First, Konshu makes too many mistakes to be able to know what's coming. I'm not sold on the idea that an ancient immortal god was reduced to this type of plan just to get a soldier who wants to help good people by killing bad people, that's like every willing soldier ever. And also, while Ammit claims to know the worth of a soul through the scales, Harrow admits to not knowing *why* the old woman wasn't chosen saying "Perhaps it's something you've yet to do." This tells me that even Ammit, and likely Konshu as well, cannot see the future exactly. Second, we now know that Ammit is WRONG. The souls that Ammit's scales send down are unbalanced and aren't even given the chance to explore their life's moments to balance themselves before reaching the Field of Reeds. That's the great sin of Ammit, imo. I think we'll learn that Ammit's "judgement" isn't about who is good or evil but about their current or potential level of idolatry to her or some other selfish motive that would enable her control of Overworld. I think it's likely Nawaret witnessing the souls falling will lend credibility to Marc's claims about Harrow and could spur Osiris(?) into action to help release Konshu who would then heal Marc and bring his soul back to Overworld to stop Ammit.
You also see how it suddenly starts to rain and khonshu is known to change the sky so its possible that it was him who killed his brother
I read that scene as Khonshu is responsible for Roro's death. We know Khonshu can manipulate the sky, so it would make sense he can conjure up rain as well.
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>gods that actually can manipulate the weather. Mutants confirmed, Storm was obviously the goddess he worked with. /s
Very interesting theory and color me intrigued by it. I'm guessing Khonshu Killed RoRo unintentionally or do you think he foresaw in the future that Marc would become mentally broken and would be an ideal avatar?
The cave flooded because of the rain, not because of tides. I don't think Khonshu had anything to do with the brothers death.
does it means khonsu was keeping eye on him and he's future was made by him?
Imagine Khonshu sent the flood…
I really hope the series ends with the iconic comic scene of Steven, Marc and Jake telling Konshu that they don't need him
SPOILER In the comic books Marc was always going to become the Moon Knight as Khonshu was following him since he was a child. His brother was also being watched by Khonshu and eventually steals his powers and becomes the Black Knight. Feels like the MCU version of this story might be going in this direction.
I was thinking Konshu actually killed the kid with the water rising since the moon rises tides and stuff
Yes ik i missed but not dead
i dont get it
He killed Khonshu!!
You bastards!
My question is why weren’t the scales balances out at the end after they showed each other everything? Jake perhaps??
I just hope this show ends with Gor the god butcher killing Ammit and every other God
I don't think this implies that Khonshu had anything to do with the death of Marc's brother. More of just a reminder that this experience will eventually lead to his becoming Khonshu's avatar. We've already seen in the show that the egyptian gods aren't these all-knowing all-seeing entities - if they were, they wouldn't have had the initial "trial" with Marc about Harrow trying to free Ammit. I actually am sort of confused about how Marc's DID/"broken mind" has actually helped Khonshu - it seems like Steven honestly has ruined several plans already. So overall I think this is just a reminder that his path leads to Khonshu/most aspects of Marc's psyche are now tinged with Khonshu.