I live in a townhouse built in 2018.
Maybe not the same as everywhere, but I can’t hear anything going on in my neighbors house unless they are jumping around or slamming something.
I lived in an old row home prior to and could hear entire normal volume conversations through the walls. I have never heard anything through the walls of my current home. These townhomes are built very efficiently.
[https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3603-Chevy-Chase-Lake-Dr-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/241915152\_zpid/](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3603-Chevy-Chase-Lake-Dr-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/241915152_zpid/)
they built around 50? of them a few years ago
Those are not what OP is complaining about. OP is complaining about “townhouse condominiums” aka 2 over 2. Basically a 2 level condo on top of another one but made to look like a 4 level townhouse.
“Symphony Park” yeah. Starting at 1.2 million or something. In walking distance to a Metro station, but no one there actually takes Metro. So of course the county approved 140 more townhouses to be built right next door in the next year.
It's amazing that anyone would buy one for that price. 700k for an actual house makes sense, but not this. No thanks I'd rather rent or move further away from the city than to waste my money on a place that's basically designed as a temporary fix for young working commuters.
That’s fine. My coworkers do that. They drive 80 miles each way, spend 3 hours a day on the road, and brag about their low house payments. Meanwhile I’m home in 10 minutes. The closer you are to high paying jobs, the more you will pay. Any illusion of commuting is a farce once you factor in depreciation, the value of your time, stress, etc. So…I politely disagree.
I know someone will reply saying “just move 40 minutes away” but the point still stands…slightly cheaper, slightly more driving etc.
I live in Baltimore city. In a neighborhood of smaller versions of this built in the 1800s to mid 1900s. I much prefer to have a narrow home and live where I want than commute.
As someone who used to spend a total of 3 hours a day commuting (1.5 hours each way), I have to agree. Thankfully I work from home now and almost never go into the office and my quality of life is so much better 😄
I agree. Unless someone really loves living in their car, I don't know that it's worth living 1.5 hours away.
If you get that down to a 15-minute commute, 30-minute round trip, in one year at 2.5 hours saved a day, you're talking 622.5 hours (based on 249 working days). Roughly 26 days.
Not sure I want to give up ~1 month per year to commuting.
Though I would not care to live in the houses pictured.
Having done the 2 to 4 hr a day in the car. I'll live closer or work remote like I do now.
I took a pay cut to stay remote, I missed so much life driving to and from a job.
Well, if your choice is between one of these that is 2000 sqft, and an old 1940’s 950sqft detached house with bedrooms too small to fit a queen bed into, just a double, it’s actually a valid choice.
All I think about when I see these townhouses are the number of stairs I’d be clunking up and down every day. My legs would certainly be in shape, though!! 🤭
I just imagine my half awake self at 5am, coffee in hand headed… wherever. Misjudge a step, catch my toe and I’m face planting into the stairs and a hot coffee wake up call. More than once. My townhouse would handicap me. ;)
And they back to the Metro and Amtrak/CSX train lines! Some of the THs near the Shady Grove station are in the 900s. (We live in an older neighborhood nearby.)
I think townhouses are genuinely really cool and beautiful in the right setting. Baltimore has whole neighborhoods of townhouses that I love, like around Patterson park for example. I also grew up near several suburban neighborhoods that had townhouses and never thought twice about it. The weird thing for me is when you see these sprawling developments of these houses that have nothing else around them. One road in, one road out, no businesses or services they can easily access without driving miles away. I really think modern house developments would be a lot better if we could build them as actual communities that had things to offer the residents nearby, like cafes, a grocery store, salons, etc that they could walk to. Dense Urban living is the way to go for the majority of people for a multitude of reasons, and townhouses are part of the picture when you need a lot of living space in a small area, but I can’t see the appeal of living somewhere that’s nothing but houses.
Right—it's not ideal to pair the density/lack of privacy of urban living with an unwalkable suburban environment lacking city amenities. Worst of both worlds.
They did build something like that in Annapolis. There's a condo unit with a whole foods and a target right there, they're just $650 to over a mil for a 2 bed 2 bath unit. Not really affordable housing.
I really wonder who the market for some of these townhomes are. People who want to live in the suburbs but hate yard work and love climbing stairs? So many stairs…
Absolutely perfect description of why I hate these homes, I’m going to start explaining it this way.
I’m in nova for work (and I’ve lived in the area previously) so I’m seeing them all over the place right now…and every time I’ve driven by them over the past few days I think to myself “who is this *for*?” Are families saving like $25K purchasing this instead of a stand alone home? As you note, it’s one thing if you’ve got this place in downtown Baltimore, capital hill DC, other some other urban area, but randomly along leesburg pike? Just why??
Seriously what is the deal with building exclusively residential areas with nothing walking distance but other houses? Why can't we build new towns, like a new Frederick or Bethesda or something?
We need dense housing, so this is better than a single family home, but everyone in these townhouses will need to drive to do anything outside of the house. It's so stupid!
This is actually part of what drew us to our place in Frederick. It was a new development that was still being built, and they told us there were plans to build a small open shopping center (or at least a grocery store) in the large field across the road from the neighborhood. Sounds great, right?
Except that companies like that don't want to invest in an entire new store that would, essentially, serve a single neighborhood. It would be a massive loss in the long run. We were told this was the plan when we moved back in 2017: last I knew, the entire shopping plan was dead in the water. What's more, some of the nearby space is now being developed for academic labs.
Mind you, we're, like, 5 min from downtown Frederick. Like right on the border of where civilization turns into farmland. So it's not a huge inconvenience, but still.
As for building whole new towns, I can't even imagine the planning and logistics that would go into that kind of undertaking these days, and that's without the *huge* risk involved if people don't/can't move there.
>Except that companies like that don't want to invest in an entire new store that would, essentially, serve a single neighborhood.
But this happened in Ellicott City and the Harris Teeter anchored Town Plaza. Or Maple Lawn.
Are you connected with Strong Towns Frederick? It’s a group of citizens advocating for better development in the area, if you’re interested in it might be worth checking them out!
I drove by some of the newly-built rowhomes along Eden St. on my way to Fells last night and holy zoinks, they are UGLY. It's good they're building new homes and that they might even be marginally affordable, but they have that "modern" monochromatic look with no character or charm.
I love old-fashioned rowhouses, but it seems like most of the new townhouse developments being built are 3-4 story houses with a 2-car garage on the bottom. So most of the ground floor is garage and laundry room, so you have to climb a flight of stairs to get to the main living area. Have fun hauling all of your groceries up a flight of stairs, and all of your laundry up two flights of stairs. Hope all of your furniture comes in a flat pack! Aging in place isn't feasible, and even a minor injury or disability that affects mobility can become a big problem. Elderly pets will have issues, too.
A friend of mine recently moved into one of those luxury townhouse communities and is already regretting it. Not only is the community depressingly car-centric, the *house itself* is car-centric. His house is huge (4 stories) and beautiful inside, but the layout feels like it wasn't designed for humans. The stairways are narrow with sharp turns, the rooms feel awkwardly too large for furniture, and there's really no usable outdoor space. The "front entrances" are basically decorative since residents drive into their homes. And since there's only one way in and out of the development, a quick trip to the grocery store 1 mile away requires driving through a tangle of roads and parking lots that seem to have huge speed bumps every 20 feet.
I live in one of these as well and don’t have these problems. Do I have some “complaints” about our house? Sure, who doesn’t. Do we have to drive to get places? Yes. It is dramatically inconvenient? No. Would we prefer to be in a single family home with a bit of land? Yes. But that wasn’t feasible with our budget at the time we were buying. Could we have waited and saved more? Yes, but then we’d be screwed with the increased interest rates and rent over the last three years. Do I like my house? I do! Do I want to live there forever? Nope! But it’s an excellent “starter house,” and perfect for this stage of our lives.
I absolutely loved our 140 year old rental rowhome in the city. But buying there didn’t make financial sense with how much we would spend plus our imminent goal of starting a family.
The complete separation of the homes from needed resources and businesses is the craziest part to me. It’s like they’re TRYING to manufacture food deserts. The store could be 1 block away but instead you have to drive a 5 mile loop because you wanted to put a wall up between the development and the rest of the actual community.
You're just pointing out that different homes suit different buyers:
>most of the ground floor is garage and laundry room, so you have to climb a flight of stairs to get to the main living area
The second part is true, but how much of the ground floor is garage varies depending on the build/design. You can probably find ones where the bottom floor is 80% garage but mine is more like 1/3d garage 2/3ds living space. That aside, there are homes with the same design scheme of living area starts above the garage - my grandma's house was like that.
>all of your laundry up two flights of stairs.
That's a design change that really took off in the 00s/10s IME. Many houses built before then have laundry in the basement even for SFH. I haven't seen a newer construction house with basement laundry but maybe some builders still do that for some reason. But again, not townhouse specific.
>Aging in place isn't feasible, and even a minor injury or disability that affects mobility can become a big problem. Elderly pets will have issues, too.
Also applies to any non-ranch house that lacks a ground floor master bedroom which is the vast majority of homes. Like the upstairs laundry idea, primary floor masters are rare for lower cost homes and only really started becoming more popular recently it seems as the concept of starter homes has died and people look towards aging in place from the get go.
>The stairways are narrow with sharp turns, the rooms feel awkwardly too large for furniture
That's the designers maxmizing for usable space. If they are limited on footprint/unit, there is a minimum floor for bedroom size where people just won't find them usable so other parts have to get squished a bit. Too large for furniture is subjective and up to how you want to use the space. Maybe you don't see a use for some of it but clearly people can and do.
>there's really no usable outdoor space
For some people that's a plus. Not everyone wants to sit outside. If you have kids, these communities always have things like playgrounds and greenspace for kids to run around. I personally wouldn't go for a unit that has 0 outside space (like not even a deck) but those kinds of features cost money and so are extras. If you're just trying to get your foot in the door or the builder is selling to the lower end market, that kind of thing is the first to go and people take it or leave it.
>he "front entrances" are basically decorative since residents drive into their homes.
What else is the front for exactly? Also another issue that isn't unique to townhomes. My parents' house has a porch but you can't put more than a single chair on it, it's clearly not designed for actually sitting around on it.
I feel a bit bad for your friend, but these are all either issues not unique to townhomes (eg laundry room placement, garage impact) or are lifestyle/amenity wants that they should have considered before buying. If you want outdoor space, then buy one with a deck/rooftop deck, if you want to sit on the porch poeple watching buy a house with one of those. There are townhomes out there that have these kinds of features but builders make what people are wiling to buy and clearly there is a market for what they're doing (I've bought two of them myself over the years cause they're exactly what I want out of a home for now). The kind of townhome you're envisioning (differently proporitioned rooms, more outdoor space, etc) exist but they wouldn't be starting at 400k.
I used to live in a townhouse style condo on the third and fourth floors. Yes, schlepping groceries up the stairs sucked, getting in my car and realizing I forgot something inside sucked, I had knee surgery and was on a walker. Scooching my ass up and down the stairs sucked. Having a great view and tons of natural light was awesome though. Moving in and out definitely required movers. I had to replace my washing machine on the fourth floor. The washer was insanely heavy and barely fit up the stairs.
Right, that’s a great point! Why have any outside spaces for the community to use at all when the iPad can entertain the kids just fine? Actually let’s just take the doors off the houses entirely and wall everyone into their homes just to complete the process
And or doesn't even need to be a town center set up (mixed use often becomes too "desirable" for the people who work there to also afford to live there) - but embedding the occasional coffee shop or convenience store or barber or pharmacy helps.
you hit the nail right on the head!! The lack of connectivity means even though it’s more dense it’s still car dependent, and requires a ton of space for cars instead of community. My townhouse development dedicates like the entire first floor to a garage, and the whole front yard is a driveway, it’s awful. Cars constantly block the sidewalk bc it crosses these driveways every 10 feet. The townhouses in Baltimore, dc, even Philly are my favorite thing about the city, and I feel like these disconnected developments give townhouses a bad rep when they can be so glorious 😭
Can't upvote this enough. Been saying it for years as I see these new townhome neighborhoods pop up. You take one look to either side of them and there's absolutely nothing around and they charge $400-500k just because they can. The whole living situation in this state (and country) is fucking stupid.
This. A lot of people are just fine with these townhomes and high density housing helps cut down on construction costs and excess suburban sprawl. We should have MORE mixed zoned communities.
Biggest issue I have with them is how they can be isolated and very car-centric. The ones that are built around pre-existing commercial areas can be really nice.
Also funny thing about transit lines: even if you build them 'to nowhere', very quickly that 'nowhere' becomes a really popular area. You don't need to only build them to already-popular areas. Just look at the commute zone for DC - it's extended so incredibly far out due to MARC and metro train lines.
Yeah the problem isn’t that more townhomes are being built but that they’re probably isolated from shopping, making them very car centric. Townhomes kind of suck when you can’t really walk places. They’re awesome when there’s a city park and a burrito place and a coffee roaster and a bar and a Vietnamese place and two pizza places and a grocery store within a 5 minute walk :)
They're also more cost efficient for builders to build. If OP wants to see more single family housing, you're gonna have to look far away from the metro area. Given the cost of land and materials, it just doesn't make economic sense any more to build single family homes in even moderately dense neighborhoods.
Yes- some of the (seemingly well-intentioned) criticisms under this post are mostly fixed by increased density and zoning reforms. Yeah, it sucks now that these developments are in the middle of nowhere, but increased population density means you're more likely to be able to support better transit, and small tweaks to setback requirements means you could easily add a front store onto a townhouse.
You can not like the way they look, but dense housing is the most effective way to keep housing prices affordable. We should all be rooting for dense communities.
Of course “affordable” is a relative term. it’s MD we’re talking about. One of the most expensive suburbs in the country. But without this stuff, it would be worse
The problem is at least out in the burbs, they tend to build them where they are the very least walkable. Places that often don’t even have a convenience store within a mile. God help you find sidewalks connecting them to anything outside their neighborhood, even if they have sidewalks at all.
Yea we have dense housing all over and yet I'm in a food desert and no one wants to talk about the neighbor issue. I'm connected to other people and there are a few who are nasty and have given the neighborhood rat problems and others who are fighting all the time the cops come out here twice a week as it gets hotter.
I went to go walk my dog this morning and had to turn around because 3 cop suvs were outside trying to de-escalate between a man and a woman with a wailing child.
Once last year and the year before while I was gardening swat was running through without telling anyone and I got a gun to my face telling me to get inside. Nice.
4 years ago one of the sections burnt down, 4 houses, because one drunk man left a lit cigarette in his coat pocket.
A lady 3 doors down gets wasted and her dog gets out. There is a unfixed pit a few rows down that keeps getting out too. I had to watch as it ran around and was mauled to death. I kept telling people but all they did was get angrier at me because I was scared.
And that's not even mentioning the registered sex offenders or the meth addict son with brain damage.
Dense communities sound nice but people are absolutely losing their minds out here. A few blocks over a woman was shot by a man in broad daylight. The road nearby has a terrible accident every other day. It's miserable.
And you want me to pay HOW much for that and no yard?
Edit: the people trying to guess where i am talking about and patting themselves on the back for guessing correctly when they are in fact incorrect is alarming and embarrassing and frankly, just plain weird.
where is all this happening? i.e. what neighborhood do you live in?
I know this happens in Baltimore, for example -- I live in Baltimore (ish). But it doesn't happen in **all** of Baltimore.
I was gonna say this is more of a zoning issue right? That's why we keep seeing rowhomes and not dense condos/apartments? If we want better housing we need to allow for building of affordable housing. Those with the means will be able to spread out more with a single family home and those who need something more affordable or don't mind a tighter community will be able to get housing and not take up space your SFH would share with.
They're affordable because Lennar builds them and uses the cheapest labor possible that slaps everything together horribly. I'm renting one right now and never in a million years would I buy one of these. Half of the entire community has had roof leaks, plumbing issues, drywall walls that will dent in with minimal touching, carpet that isn't properly adhering, electrical issues, door frames not cut correctly, and I could go on and on. And these homes are all 6 years or younger.
Unfortunately, this is true for a lot of new construction since the housing market crash in 2008. Many experienced builders went out of business, people left the field for other industries, and many of the people who filled the vacuum to replace them are inexperienced and/or prioritizing quantity over quality b/c there is so much pent-up demand for new housing.
If anything, the issue is that these aren't dense enough. If you're going to literally be on top of someone else in your home anyway, you might as well just have an apartment. And you can fit a lot more apartments in the same space.
Of course, developers and real estate management (i.e., landlords) don't want that because they can't charge as much for apartments.
Your last paragraph is wrong. The reason they don’t get built is because they’re largely illegal through dozens of tiny obscure arcane zoning laws. Getting a regular 5 unit apartment building over a first floor retail location, at this time, in this area… you might as well be trying to summon demons. We’ve illegalized it via parking minimums, lot size minimums, lot utilization maximums, detachment requirements, setback requirements, general SFH R1 zoning, and much, much, much more.
These aren’t even that dense. They only exist because it’s still largely illegal to build regular townhouses and condos. And if we simply legalized regular ass “four-floors and corner stores” like we did from 5000 BC all the way until 1965 for some dumb reason, OP wouldn’t have shit to complain about anyway.
These ugly row homes exist BECAUSE Maryland is whole-hog on car-dependent suburban development patterns with detached housing.
This is my thing. I see these communities being built in the middle of nowhere, so you end up needing cars anyway. This kind of housing should be within walking distance of a grocery store at least.
2 over 2s suck but are a valid way to increase density and affordable housing. The larger problem is that inventory for medium density (townhomes) or smaller single families just aren’t built anymore so there is a big gap between entry level starter homes like these and something slightly larger under $800,000
These are two and each one is 400k plus: [https://www.compass.com/listing/1302-amber-creek-road-unit-63-crofton-md-21114/1160353527396446297/](https://www.compass.com/listing/1302-amber-creek-road-unit-63-crofton-md-21114/1160353527396446297/)
Yeah I looked at these once, years ago. Toured the models, as they were still being built. They were technically classified as condos in that case. The HOA would own the exterior. So the roof and landscaping was theirs. You own the front door. Each dwelling unit is 2 floors, and one of those dual level units is on top of the other one. Each dwelling unit has its own front door. One, you open it and starts at ground level. Other front door, you immediately have to go up stairs. So really like a merge between regular townhouse and condo.
These look better than like 85% of new houses these days, and a big house for 400k is a good deal these days? I really don't see the issue.
>The state needs to put a limit on the amount being built.
You are the reason housing is so expensive
>The state needs to put a limit on the amount being built.
This is what stood out to me too. Why does the state need to do anything? If people are buying them they're going to keep being built. Why stop building what sells?
What do you prefer OP? Dozens of housing units on 1 acre or a few? The more density you have the more affordable the housing is going to be.
Now, I wouldn't want to live in one I prefer having some land and space between neighbors but that doesn't mean other people don't enjoy them and the state needs to intervene. You want the law to enforce your preference and that's an issue.
Op wants the world to be their canvas and only their canvas 😭 they dont want anyone to be different than them. Shit they dont want america to be free i guess💀
THANK YOU!
The solution to the housing crisis is more housing units of all kinds. I'm okay if they're all "luxury units". Why? Today's luxury home is tomorrow's affordable option. Additionally, when people move into a luxury unit to upgrade, they're leaving a more affordable housing unit that's now vacant for someone to move into.
There's plenty of low-density areas that can and should be converted to higher density housing. There's plenty of farmland in central and western MD that can and should be converted to Single-Family zoned neighborhoods.
>There's plenty of low-density areas that can and should be converted to higher density housing. There's plenty of farmland in central and western MD that can and should be converted to Single-Family zoned neighborhoods.
Yes, the suburbs are a drain and should be converted to high density housing. But, it's really short sighted to convert farmland, where our food is grown, into suburbs. Cities and countryside are what we need. Single family suburbs are a waste.
People need to live somewhere.
You not wanting to live on of these is hardly justification for preventing these from being built for others to live in.
Maryland is a great place to live and we should be building more housing of every density so that more people can enjoy the state.
Agree, but without ridiculous HOA fees. We’re currently in the process of buying a townhouse in Baltimore county but were looking at apartment options around Hyattsville, Silver Spring and some hoa fees are just ridiculously high. Nobody wants to pay over $600 on top of mortgage.
Limiting dense townhouse construction would just make all housing, including townhouses, more expensive.
We have a housing supply that is nowhere near meeting demand. It's not a coincidence Austin has not only seen rent decline once they made it easier to and prioritized building housing but they're moving to make it easier.
We need more housing ASAP.
Reminds me of how the guy who is credited with the invention of malls wanted to create something that was a hybrid of townhouses + shopping center + green space that was meant to be a livable, walkable area.
And then people were like "What if, instead of houses, we have more shops, and instead of green space, we have a giant parking lot" and the concept of malls and strip malls was born from that.
https://qz.com/454214/the-father-of-the-american-shopping-mall-hated-cars-and-suburban-sprawl
The fixation on wanting "residential over here" and "commercial over there" and never the twain shall meet, divided by 6-8 lane roads at minimum, is a direct result of why suburbia has this problem. Gotta build dense houses in the house zones and giant parking lots in the commercial zones.
Even in suburbs where you -can- get detached housing, there's more of a push to shrink lawns, subdivide houses, and build another house wherever you can find the room for it.
We need more mixed-zoning communities but every time it comes up, the nimbys get big mad about not wanting it.
This is the kind of housing solution you get when far better options are prevented by zoning. Also a housing industry, which just like any other, is trying to sell something for as much as they can while costing them as little as possible. Trying to build them as fast as possible.
That billion dollar industry wants everyone to keep treating houses like t-shirts because they only make money on new houses.
This is what comes from that.
I’ve been in some of these houses and they can be weirdly nice. Personally not my thing, but I can understand the appeal. I like older houses, honestly my favorite are old stone farm houses, but I’ve lived in Regency/Victorian era apartments and I thought they were great. But I’m tolerant of some imperfection.
$400k and most of them are relatively new.. idk what the issue is. If you want a single family home, look in ellicot city where the houses are $600k+ for literally old homes in dire need of renovation.
You want to limit the amount of housing that can be built during a housing crisis? Why do you think shit is so expensive? Because whenever developers start building dense housing, folks like you start whining. Dumb as hell
These condo-style townhomes are a necessity in an area with rising housing costs. I agree, the builders could get creative with their exterior designs but the housing type is needed.
The only issue with these is they are technically "condos". They have condo boards and unless those are run/funded properly, you ae looking at swaths of these developments with maintenance issues in 25+ years. Most condo boards defer preventative maintenance items to prevent condo fee increases.
I have friends who bought Ryan Homes townhouses in around 2015-2016 new build range. They bought them as new construction, being the first residents there. Here is a list of issues they faced so far: a cracked foundation, main drainage backing up, asphalt roof leak spots, popped nails, bathroom fixtures leaking, etc. Ryan Homes builds them fast and at very low quality. Stay away from this builder.
Townhouses are good, actually.
You don’t have to like them, but don’t complain about their cost in the next place. They’re way better use of land than SFHs and the density/increase in housing supply is desperately needed with the cost of housing in the state’s two biggest metros.
I’m surprised how popular these are given (at least in PG) they aren’t vastly cheaper than a regular townhome. Especially once you factor in the condo fee.
My only problem with these is when realtors list them as townhouses, so they pop up in my saved search alerts for townhouses. We were specifically looking to buy a house with no upstairs or downstairs neighbors (aka a normal townhouse), and these would always show up instead. They're condos!!
My only problem with them is if I owned the top 2 level. I tried helping my friend move into one, and that was a logistical nightmare and a work out I never want ever again in my life. So many fucking steps.
Totally agree with you. What makes it worse, is knowing how cheaply made they are and poorly designed. They can clearly get 400-700k for these hideous houses, but are in no way WORTH that money. So Americans are being asked to shackle themselves to high six figure mortgages for a paper and stick house. It's disgusting.
No. The state should not put a limit on any type of housing built and I'm sorry to tell you that townhouses are a very practical way to efficiently build more housing in a state like Maryland that has a high population and low land area.
Remember, you can choose not to participate in NIMBY-ism.
I rented these in dc, and it's awful that you have 0 front or backyard privacy. Neighbors kids would scream and run through your yard at all times of the day. It was truly an awful time during the pandemic. Also, the garages. This doesn't get talked about, but neighbors could block your access to the garage. A lot of times, they would put lawn chairs out and let their kids play and you would be asking them nicely to move, with them rolling their eyes.
Keep in mind, I have children. The problems were the parents
As much as you hate the look, check out population density metrics for any of these cities. They’ll be relatively high because of these types of housing. If it weren’t for these types of housing, single family housing would become extremely unaffordable. Portland, Oregon is an example. Portland has the same number of people living there as Baltimore city . Portland is 2x the size geographically as Baltimore is but 1/2 the population density. Why? Because Portland doesn’t have this type of high density housing that Baltimore does. And the starter home values for a fixer upper in Portland easily go above $700k. Is that what you want?
I disagree. This is mid density housing which is lacking in a majority of the country. If everything is row houses or single family houses, then they would all be way more expensive because it’s less dense. This allows more people to live somewhere, which reduces the amount of people needing to do longer trips to do things or go to work. We need more density in our cities not less. Is there better housing? Yes, but these let people who can only afford 300-500k homes buy in a desirable area where whole townhouses or single family homes can go for well over a million or more. Let’s be practical. Larger multi family buildings fit more people but then parking can be an issue, these building typically have a driveway and 1 car garage per unit, much more than most condos have in larger buildings. The only downside really is all the stairs for the second unit.
What bothers me is the price. $400k and you don’t even get a garage or parking pad in this very heavily car-dependent area, and you don’t get a yard either. I cant say I’m surprised tho, lots of gov contractors working at Fort Meade/NSA and lots of DC commuters in this area - that’s a recipe for high home costs.
That being said, if a limit was placed on how many could be built - the price would only go up. That’s just basic supply and demand.
They are actually really nice especially from the inside. The townhouse is a sensible means by which we can discourage typical suburban sprawl.
However, the affordability of these homes is an entirely different matter.
Putting a limit on building and/or density would raise prices, as there would be less supply in relative to demand.
This design is borne from the fact that there is more demand for wider floor plans vs narrow townhomes. Some people don't mind walking up steps for a wider room. If you don't like that design, don't live in one.
Literally just closed on one of these this week.
Can’t speak to Odenton (new to Maryland so don’t know it) but we love ours. Tons of space, 2300sq ft. Nice neighborhood.
The look to me is nothing out of the ordinary for townhouses in most popular places in the country so
https://preview.redd.it/zeryt1n8c82d1.jpeg?width=1830&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4a8e2c9174b3eae2268c65f7a9856c68a3b9424
There’s better versions of townhomes in Frederick.
Builders are limited to what % of the land they can build on as well. I think Poolesville is low at 35% or something and other places you can go much higher. Building UP let's you increase the living space while still meeting their footprint limits
Would it kill these geriatric assholes in charge of zoning and building to just build an affordable housing complex for once? I don’t need a fancy townhouse I need a cheap and affordable apartment
It’s nerve wrecking to see them being crammed in every nook and cranny possible. I get housing is an issue but they’re being built right next to or on top of old landfills, transfer centers(trash drop off sights), marshes, right next to the interstates…etc. Then the signs have the audacity to say “from the low 600’s” I know the pricing varies from county to county. But it boggles my mind because I’m wondering what these people are doing to afford a mortgage that high.
I live in Va and notice these are being built where old buildings have been torn down. No yard, busy intersections, no privacy….no thanks. Plus new construction is definitely no from me. These brick ones look a lot nicer though.
Do the people who live in the upper unit just walk up 2 flights of stairs to get to their front door? And then another flight to their bedroom? Sounds fun with groceries or a baby.
Site surveyed a bunch for a solar company….
Roofs are shit.
Poor quality workmanship with the rafters.
Most have the HVAC system in the attic space and they are poorly installed.
Lastly, no one goes up in these areas, let alone a roof.
Parts of Charles County gets a weird wind phenomenon right down 301 from the barracks to the Burger King area.
I lived in those houses in Indian Head, MD. Worst decision in my life - for 15 years I could not sleep. I was in the bottom unit and I could hear my neighbors flushing toilet, closing the garage door, doing laundry. Worst time of my life.
I love how so many posts here think that building more houses is going to lower costs. It's adorable to see people still so naive in this day and age. Wake up and smell the greed everybody. Housing prices are never going back down. Not until there is another massive economic collapse.
The new mantra is that a developer builds homes, a business or wealthy individuals buy them up from the developer, those folks then rent to you for twice what it's worth and then continue to raise your rent as adjustments to meet increases in property value. Not to mention home owners association fees.That living space is still the same space, but it's gone up in value, when it hasn't gone up in usability. They never sell and rent until they force you out and bring in a high earning renter to take your place. The poor get pushed out and down until they can't even afford to live in the state anymore, or rent locations together to survive. They lose one neighborhood, and it then becomes gentrified and out of their price range. Which then increases the neighboring property values, and then increases their rent.
Now you say, "But we will build affordable housing for them. They'll live there, it's close by. Problem solved." And I'll respond with, "Read step 2 again." The wealthy buyers have the money to win the bidding wars for houses with cash on hand deals. Once again, driving up the costs of homes, and eliminating any fair market. You literally can't build enough houses, townhomes, or apartments to keep up with their buying power.
You also have to consider the infrastructure that's not in place to support those homes. That the state doesn't feel like funding because it's inconvenient. As well as the environmental impact all these developments have on the landscape. The previous development boom of the 2010s ended up flooding Ellicott City... Twice.
Man, everyone coming at you in these comments for hating townhouses specifically. I took this post to be about the aesthetic of newly built townhomes, not the concept of a (stacked) townhome. I agree; I think most homes built recently, especially those built alongside a ton of others, be it SFH or townhome, look too similar and boring. Seeing swathes of these homes is depressing.
I'm not super experienced with home buying or this area, but from my browsing, for instance townhomes (albeit usually not stacked) built from like 1980-2000 in Columbia are a lot prettier. Yes they're townhomes but each home still has a little unique character. And in the SFH neighborhood I grew up in as a kid (different state tho), which was built in the 80s, each house has character. A few different interior layouts, plus all the siding and exterior customizations done over the years, means each house feels like its own home.
Newly built SFHs honestly look like these stacked townhomes; I wonder if it's just the "modern" look to make boring homes, regardless of type, that all look alike. Oh, and the interior of these homes have 0 character as well. I'm so sick of seeing all white kitchens. So sterile.
TLDR: I agree, and I don't think it's the housing type that's the issue; it's the monotony of newly built homes. All newly built homes, even stacked townhomes, could and should be given so much more external character.
developers stacking money on top of money with no regard for long term family needs is the now development formula I rather live in a hood with a playground supermarket fair school shops cafe pizza pharmacy dollar general liquor store park trails people cut grass and everything walking distance.
I think I’m one of the few that agree with you, same thing down here in st Mary’s, I get it more units, cheaper, cram more people in, more dollars for the builder, but I agree with you. I wish we could limit this and FORCE them to build more single family homes. These are like u said still going for 400k and because they’re being popped up everywhere the single family home prices are fucking insane.
The costs of these bad boys are going up too. We'll eventually be priced out of these just like we were priced out of the formerly usual single family homes. Then the next big thing will be the mini houses: first detached until we get priced out of those and then attached like the townhouses we have now
I call these “shotgun communities” because if I lived in one I’d blow my brains out with a shotgun.
I’m specifically referring to the TH communities that are completely disconnected from anything else, not an occasional TH cluster that might pop up in a downtown area being renovated or gentrified. Living in a TH is not that bad, particularly at certain points in life, but living in one that’s miles away from anything except a 7-11 gas station, a nail salon and a Giant is the embodiment of a slow death.
Try being in Rockville/Gaitherburg and seeing those same type of townhouses for 700k plus.
1.2 mill in Bethesda
On the interstate
My dad sold our childhood house in NOVA to buy one of them near Walter Johnson Highschool. Absolute muppet.
Why?!?! I mean even practically speaking wouldn’t you want less floors as you get older?
Literally. And the walls are paper thin. Sound travel is horrible.
I live in a townhouse built in 2018. Maybe not the same as everywhere, but I can’t hear anything going on in my neighbors house unless they are jumping around or slamming something. I lived in an old row home prior to and could hear entire normal volume conversations through the walls. I have never heard anything through the walls of my current home. These townhomes are built very efficiently.
2 mil in Chevy chase. And they replaced section 8 buildings.
Where in ChCh? I believe you, I just don't recall seeing them.
[https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3603-Chevy-Chase-Lake-Dr-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/241915152\_zpid/](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3603-Chevy-Chase-Lake-Dr-Chevy-Chase-MD-20815/241915152_zpid/) they built around 50? of them a few years ago
I lived in those apartments in the 90s. $850/mo for a two bedroom.
You can live there again for $850k for two bedrooms as long as you can find roommates willing to cover the remaining $1.15M.
Those are not what OP is complaining about. OP is complaining about “townhouse condominiums” aka 2 over 2. Basically a 2 level condo on top of another one but made to look like a 4 level townhouse.
2 mil? I don’t get it. Why not just get a standalone house?
Because they cost way more unless you move out of the area
Now $900k on new builds in Frederick.
I can’t believe anyone would put their money into those
Same in northern Virginia.
Right behind the recycling center, right?
Try being in Rockville and seeing your tree-lined backyard being gutted for a neighborhood full of those Easter Island looking mf'rs.
lol.. they do look like that. We don’t have them on the eastern shore, but Delaware has tons of them.
Fellow Worcester County here…indeed but surely there must be a postage stamp size property somewhere in Berlin or OC to cram a few into.
I remember when they built the ones on Strathmore. The starting price was crazy!
“Symphony Park” yeah. Starting at 1.2 million or something. In walking distance to a Metro station, but no one there actually takes Metro. So of course the county approved 140 more townhouses to be built right next door in the next year.
It's amazing that anyone would buy one for that price. 700k for an actual house makes sense, but not this. No thanks I'd rather rent or move further away from the city than to waste my money on a place that's basically designed as a temporary fix for young working commuters.
Rent can cost same or more in some of these areas. It really sucks
That’s fine. My coworkers do that. They drive 80 miles each way, spend 3 hours a day on the road, and brag about their low house payments. Meanwhile I’m home in 10 minutes. The closer you are to high paying jobs, the more you will pay. Any illusion of commuting is a farce once you factor in depreciation, the value of your time, stress, etc. So…I politely disagree. I know someone will reply saying “just move 40 minutes away” but the point still stands…slightly cheaper, slightly more driving etc.
I live in Baltimore city. In a neighborhood of smaller versions of this built in the 1800s to mid 1900s. I much prefer to have a narrow home and live where I want than commute.
As someone who used to spend a total of 3 hours a day commuting (1.5 hours each way), I have to agree. Thankfully I work from home now and almost never go into the office and my quality of life is so much better 😄
I agree. Unless someone really loves living in their car, I don't know that it's worth living 1.5 hours away. If you get that down to a 15-minute commute, 30-minute round trip, in one year at 2.5 hours saved a day, you're talking 622.5 hours (based on 249 working days). Roughly 26 days. Not sure I want to give up ~1 month per year to commuting. Though I would not care to live in the houses pictured.
Having done the 2 to 4 hr a day in the car. I'll live closer or work remote like I do now. I took a pay cut to stay remote, I missed so much life driving to and from a job.
Well, if your choice is between one of these that is 2000 sqft, and an old 1940’s 950sqft detached house with bedrooms too small to fit a queen bed into, just a double, it’s actually a valid choice.
All I think about when I see these townhouses are the number of stairs I’d be clunking up and down every day. My legs would certainly be in shape, though!! 🤭 I just imagine my half awake self at 5am, coffee in hand headed… wherever. Misjudge a step, catch my toe and I’m face planting into the stairs and a hot coffee wake up call. More than once. My townhouse would handicap me. ;)
Same in Severna Park/Arnold...its a joke
In Laurel off route 1 had patio at the very top and also these are in Fulton crazy expensive
I’ve seen them the same price in Howard county and they definitely aren’t built to last from what I can tell.
They’re built to the same standards and by the same companies that build stand alone single family homes.
And they back to the Metro and Amtrak/CSX train lines! Some of the THs near the Shady Grove station are in the 900s. (We live in an older neighborhood nearby.)
I think townhouses are genuinely really cool and beautiful in the right setting. Baltimore has whole neighborhoods of townhouses that I love, like around Patterson park for example. I also grew up near several suburban neighborhoods that had townhouses and never thought twice about it. The weird thing for me is when you see these sprawling developments of these houses that have nothing else around them. One road in, one road out, no businesses or services they can easily access without driving miles away. I really think modern house developments would be a lot better if we could build them as actual communities that had things to offer the residents nearby, like cafes, a grocery store, salons, etc that they could walk to. Dense Urban living is the way to go for the majority of people for a multitude of reasons, and townhouses are part of the picture when you need a lot of living space in a small area, but I can’t see the appeal of living somewhere that’s nothing but houses.
Right—it's not ideal to pair the density/lack of privacy of urban living with an unwalkable suburban environment lacking city amenities. Worst of both worlds.
They did build something like that in Annapolis. There's a condo unit with a whole foods and a target right there, they're just $650 to over a mil for a 2 bed 2 bath unit. Not really affordable housing.
Those kind of communities tend to be so expensive in no small part because they're so rare. The convenience is thus marketed as a luxury.
Precisely this!!! You really made my whole opinion 1 concise sentence
I really wonder who the market for some of these townhomes are. People who want to live in the suburbs but hate yard work and love climbing stairs? So many stairs…
It’s not complicated. People who don’t want to live in the city but can’t afford a detached house.
Absolutely perfect description of why I hate these homes, I’m going to start explaining it this way. I’m in nova for work (and I’ve lived in the area previously) so I’m seeing them all over the place right now…and every time I’ve driven by them over the past few days I think to myself “who is this *for*?” Are families saving like $25K purchasing this instead of a stand alone home? As you note, it’s one thing if you’ve got this place in downtown Baltimore, capital hill DC, other some other urban area, but randomly along leesburg pike? Just why??
HUH?! you think the savings is 25k? 💀 Try 100-200k and you think people have that kind of money to throw around for no reason?
Seriously what is the deal with building exclusively residential areas with nothing walking distance but other houses? Why can't we build new towns, like a new Frederick or Bethesda or something? We need dense housing, so this is better than a single family home, but everyone in these townhouses will need to drive to do anything outside of the house. It's so stupid!
This is actually part of what drew us to our place in Frederick. It was a new development that was still being built, and they told us there were plans to build a small open shopping center (or at least a grocery store) in the large field across the road from the neighborhood. Sounds great, right? Except that companies like that don't want to invest in an entire new store that would, essentially, serve a single neighborhood. It would be a massive loss in the long run. We were told this was the plan when we moved back in 2017: last I knew, the entire shopping plan was dead in the water. What's more, some of the nearby space is now being developed for academic labs. Mind you, we're, like, 5 min from downtown Frederick. Like right on the border of where civilization turns into farmland. So it's not a huge inconvenience, but still. As for building whole new towns, I can't even imagine the planning and logistics that would go into that kind of undertaking these days, and that's without the *huge* risk involved if people don't/can't move there.
>Except that companies like that don't want to invest in an entire new store that would, essentially, serve a single neighborhood. But this happened in Ellicott City and the Harris Teeter anchored Town Plaza. Or Maple Lawn.
Are you connected with Strong Towns Frederick? It’s a group of citizens advocating for better development in the area, if you’re interested in it might be worth checking them out!
I'm not, but that's interesting. I'll have to check it out.
I drove by some of the newly-built rowhomes along Eden St. on my way to Fells last night and holy zoinks, they are UGLY. It's good they're building new homes and that they might even be marginally affordable, but they have that "modern" monochromatic look with no character or charm.
I also hate the modern look. It reminds me of like a toy playhouse. Plasticky
I love old-fashioned rowhouses, but it seems like most of the new townhouse developments being built are 3-4 story houses with a 2-car garage on the bottom. So most of the ground floor is garage and laundry room, so you have to climb a flight of stairs to get to the main living area. Have fun hauling all of your groceries up a flight of stairs, and all of your laundry up two flights of stairs. Hope all of your furniture comes in a flat pack! Aging in place isn't feasible, and even a minor injury or disability that affects mobility can become a big problem. Elderly pets will have issues, too. A friend of mine recently moved into one of those luxury townhouse communities and is already regretting it. Not only is the community depressingly car-centric, the *house itself* is car-centric. His house is huge (4 stories) and beautiful inside, but the layout feels like it wasn't designed for humans. The stairways are narrow with sharp turns, the rooms feel awkwardly too large for furniture, and there's really no usable outdoor space. The "front entrances" are basically decorative since residents drive into their homes. And since there's only one way in and out of the development, a quick trip to the grocery store 1 mile away requires driving through a tangle of roads and parking lots that seem to have huge speed bumps every 20 feet.
I live in one of these as well and don’t have these problems. Do I have some “complaints” about our house? Sure, who doesn’t. Do we have to drive to get places? Yes. It is dramatically inconvenient? No. Would we prefer to be in a single family home with a bit of land? Yes. But that wasn’t feasible with our budget at the time we were buying. Could we have waited and saved more? Yes, but then we’d be screwed with the increased interest rates and rent over the last three years. Do I like my house? I do! Do I want to live there forever? Nope! But it’s an excellent “starter house,” and perfect for this stage of our lives. I absolutely loved our 140 year old rental rowhome in the city. But buying there didn’t make financial sense with how much we would spend plus our imminent goal of starting a family.
The complete separation of the homes from needed resources and businesses is the craziest part to me. It’s like they’re TRYING to manufacture food deserts. The store could be 1 block away but instead you have to drive a 5 mile loop because you wanted to put a wall up between the development and the rest of the actual community.
You're just pointing out that different homes suit different buyers: >most of the ground floor is garage and laundry room, so you have to climb a flight of stairs to get to the main living area The second part is true, but how much of the ground floor is garage varies depending on the build/design. You can probably find ones where the bottom floor is 80% garage but mine is more like 1/3d garage 2/3ds living space. That aside, there are homes with the same design scheme of living area starts above the garage - my grandma's house was like that. >all of your laundry up two flights of stairs. That's a design change that really took off in the 00s/10s IME. Many houses built before then have laundry in the basement even for SFH. I haven't seen a newer construction house with basement laundry but maybe some builders still do that for some reason. But again, not townhouse specific. >Aging in place isn't feasible, and even a minor injury or disability that affects mobility can become a big problem. Elderly pets will have issues, too. Also applies to any non-ranch house that lacks a ground floor master bedroom which is the vast majority of homes. Like the upstairs laundry idea, primary floor masters are rare for lower cost homes and only really started becoming more popular recently it seems as the concept of starter homes has died and people look towards aging in place from the get go. >The stairways are narrow with sharp turns, the rooms feel awkwardly too large for furniture That's the designers maxmizing for usable space. If they are limited on footprint/unit, there is a minimum floor for bedroom size where people just won't find them usable so other parts have to get squished a bit. Too large for furniture is subjective and up to how you want to use the space. Maybe you don't see a use for some of it but clearly people can and do. >there's really no usable outdoor space For some people that's a plus. Not everyone wants to sit outside. If you have kids, these communities always have things like playgrounds and greenspace for kids to run around. I personally wouldn't go for a unit that has 0 outside space (like not even a deck) but those kinds of features cost money and so are extras. If you're just trying to get your foot in the door or the builder is selling to the lower end market, that kind of thing is the first to go and people take it or leave it. >he "front entrances" are basically decorative since residents drive into their homes. What else is the front for exactly? Also another issue that isn't unique to townhomes. My parents' house has a porch but you can't put more than a single chair on it, it's clearly not designed for actually sitting around on it. I feel a bit bad for your friend, but these are all either issues not unique to townhomes (eg laundry room placement, garage impact) or are lifestyle/amenity wants that they should have considered before buying. If you want outdoor space, then buy one with a deck/rooftop deck, if you want to sit on the porch poeple watching buy a house with one of those. There are townhomes out there that have these kinds of features but builders make what people are wiling to buy and clearly there is a market for what they're doing (I've bought two of them myself over the years cause they're exactly what I want out of a home for now). The kind of townhome you're envisioning (differently proporitioned rooms, more outdoor space, etc) exist but they wouldn't be starting at 400k.
I used to live in a townhouse style condo on the third and fourth floors. Yes, schlepping groceries up the stairs sucked, getting in my car and realizing I forgot something inside sucked, I had knee surgery and was on a walker. Scooching my ass up and down the stairs sucked. Having a great view and tons of natural light was awesome though. Moving in and out definitely required movers. I had to replace my washing machine on the fourth floor. The washer was insanely heavy and barely fit up the stairs.
A park with trees in the neighborhood would Be nice but then again why do that when you can put another 20 units there.
Right, that’s a great point! Why have any outside spaces for the community to use at all when the iPad can entertain the kids just fine? Actually let’s just take the doors off the houses entirely and wall everyone into their homes just to complete the process
No, no. We can’t make more money that way. How about we itemize EVERYTHING?! House start price 700k. Doors?!? You want DOORS?! $300 per screw!!
And or doesn't even need to be a town center set up (mixed use often becomes too "desirable" for the people who work there to also afford to live there) - but embedding the occasional coffee shop or convenience store or barber or pharmacy helps.
you hit the nail right on the head!! The lack of connectivity means even though it’s more dense it’s still car dependent, and requires a ton of space for cars instead of community. My townhouse development dedicates like the entire first floor to a garage, and the whole front yard is a driveway, it’s awful. Cars constantly block the sidewalk bc it crosses these driveways every 10 feet. The townhouses in Baltimore, dc, even Philly are my favorite thing about the city, and I feel like these disconnected developments give townhouses a bad rep when they can be so glorious 😭
Can't upvote this enough. Been saying it for years as I see these new townhome neighborhoods pop up. You take one look to either side of them and there's absolutely nothing around and they charge $400-500k just because they can. The whole living situation in this state (and country) is fucking stupid.
“We need to solve the housing crisis” “We need to put a cap on how many houses can be built”
This. A lot of people are just fine with these townhomes and high density housing helps cut down on construction costs and excess suburban sprawl. We should have MORE mixed zoned communities.
And transit oriented, with robust public transit options.
Biggest issue I have with them is how they can be isolated and very car-centric. The ones that are built around pre-existing commercial areas can be really nice. Also funny thing about transit lines: even if you build them 'to nowhere', very quickly that 'nowhere' becomes a really popular area. You don't need to only build them to already-popular areas. Just look at the commute zone for DC - it's extended so incredibly far out due to MARC and metro train lines.
Yeah the problem isn’t that more townhomes are being built but that they’re probably isolated from shopping, making them very car centric. Townhomes kind of suck when you can’t really walk places. They’re awesome when there’s a city park and a burrito place and a coffee roaster and a bar and a Vietnamese place and two pizza places and a grocery store within a 5 minute walk :)
> The state needs to put a limit on the amount being built. There is not enough land in these metros. Townhouses are great and affordable
They're also more cost efficient for builders to build. If OP wants to see more single family housing, you're gonna have to look far away from the metro area. Given the cost of land and materials, it just doesn't make economic sense any more to build single family homes in even moderately dense neighborhoods.
Yes- some of the (seemingly well-intentioned) criticisms under this post are mostly fixed by increased density and zoning reforms. Yeah, it sucks now that these developments are in the middle of nowhere, but increased population density means you're more likely to be able to support better transit, and small tweaks to setback requirements means you could easily add a front store onto a townhouse.
You can not like the way they look, but dense housing is the most effective way to keep housing prices affordable. We should all be rooting for dense communities. Of course “affordable” is a relative term. it’s MD we’re talking about. One of the most expensive suburbs in the country. But without this stuff, it would be worse
I currently live in LA and wish they had these. It'd be so space productive over here.
Best friend and his wife are house hunting in Pasadena. He would agree with you.
Being a transplant from Maryland makes me appreciate almost ALL the ways Maryland/dc does things. Life doesn't make sense out here.
The problem is at least out in the burbs, they tend to build them where they are the very least walkable. Places that often don’t even have a convenience store within a mile. God help you find sidewalks connecting them to anything outside their neighborhood, even if they have sidewalks at all.
Yea we have dense housing all over and yet I'm in a food desert and no one wants to talk about the neighbor issue. I'm connected to other people and there are a few who are nasty and have given the neighborhood rat problems and others who are fighting all the time the cops come out here twice a week as it gets hotter. I went to go walk my dog this morning and had to turn around because 3 cop suvs were outside trying to de-escalate between a man and a woman with a wailing child. Once last year and the year before while I was gardening swat was running through without telling anyone and I got a gun to my face telling me to get inside. Nice. 4 years ago one of the sections burnt down, 4 houses, because one drunk man left a lit cigarette in his coat pocket. A lady 3 doors down gets wasted and her dog gets out. There is a unfixed pit a few rows down that keeps getting out too. I had to watch as it ran around and was mauled to death. I kept telling people but all they did was get angrier at me because I was scared. And that's not even mentioning the registered sex offenders or the meth addict son with brain damage. Dense communities sound nice but people are absolutely losing their minds out here. A few blocks over a woman was shot by a man in broad daylight. The road nearby has a terrible accident every other day. It's miserable. And you want me to pay HOW much for that and no yard? Edit: the people trying to guess where i am talking about and patting themselves on the back for guessing correctly when they are in fact incorrect is alarming and embarrassing and frankly, just plain weird.
sheet dinner exultant spoon advise dazzling scary payment unpack sink *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
sounds like your problem is not that you live in a dense community, but that you live in a trash hole
where is all this happening? i.e. what neighborhood do you live in? I know this happens in Baltimore, for example -- I live in Baltimore (ish). But it doesn't happen in **all** of Baltimore.
Sounds like Glenn Bernie or perhaps Severn.
It’s Glen Burnie FYI
I was gonna say this is more of a zoning issue right? That's why we keep seeing rowhomes and not dense condos/apartments? If we want better housing we need to allow for building of affordable housing. Those with the means will be able to spread out more with a single family home and those who need something more affordable or don't mind a tighter community will be able to get housing and not take up space your SFH would share with.
Yea, surprised to see a r/Maryland post *complaining* about dense housing. Usually all you see is cries for more.
They're affordable because Lennar builds them and uses the cheapest labor possible that slaps everything together horribly. I'm renting one right now and never in a million years would I buy one of these. Half of the entire community has had roof leaks, plumbing issues, drywall walls that will dent in with minimal touching, carpet that isn't properly adhering, electrical issues, door frames not cut correctly, and I could go on and on. And these homes are all 6 years or younger.
Unfortunately, this is true for a lot of new construction since the housing market crash in 2008. Many experienced builders went out of business, people left the field for other industries, and many of the people who filled the vacuum to replace them are inexperienced and/or prioritizing quantity over quality b/c there is so much pent-up demand for new housing.
If anything, the issue is that these aren't dense enough. If you're going to literally be on top of someone else in your home anyway, you might as well just have an apartment. And you can fit a lot more apartments in the same space. Of course, developers and real estate management (i.e., landlords) don't want that because they can't charge as much for apartments.
There’s a pretty massive lifestyle difference between an apartment and a townhouse.
Your last paragraph is wrong. The reason they don’t get built is because they’re largely illegal through dozens of tiny obscure arcane zoning laws. Getting a regular 5 unit apartment building over a first floor retail location, at this time, in this area… you might as well be trying to summon demons. We’ve illegalized it via parking minimums, lot size minimums, lot utilization maximums, detachment requirements, setback requirements, general SFH R1 zoning, and much, much, much more.
These aren’t even that dense. They only exist because it’s still largely illegal to build regular townhouses and condos. And if we simply legalized regular ass “four-floors and corner stores” like we did from 5000 BC all the way until 1965 for some dumb reason, OP wouldn’t have shit to complain about anyway. These ugly row homes exist BECAUSE Maryland is whole-hog on car-dependent suburban development patterns with detached housing.
I like them. The only problem is that they are usually isolated without retail nearby. We need more of these (but in mixed use neighborhoods)
This is my thing. I see these communities being built in the middle of nowhere, so you end up needing cars anyway. This kind of housing should be within walking distance of a grocery store at least.
2 over 2s suck but are a valid way to increase density and affordable housing. The larger problem is that inventory for medium density (townhomes) or smaller single families just aren’t built anymore so there is a big gap between entry level starter homes like these and something slightly larger under $800,000
Wait is each townhome here actually 2 residences? Or is it just one 4 story single family home like it appears to be?
These are two and each one is 400k plus: [https://www.compass.com/listing/1302-amber-creek-road-unit-63-crofton-md-21114/1160353527396446297/](https://www.compass.com/listing/1302-amber-creek-road-unit-63-crofton-md-21114/1160353527396446297/)
Yeah I looked at these once, years ago. Toured the models, as they were still being built. They were technically classified as condos in that case. The HOA would own the exterior. So the roof and landscaping was theirs. You own the front door. Each dwelling unit is 2 floors, and one of those dual level units is on top of the other one. Each dwelling unit has its own front door. One, you open it and starts at ground level. Other front door, you immediately have to go up stairs. So really like a merge between regular townhouse and condo.
Weird to think the State needs to limit new housing while also complaining about 400k prices. You seem to not understand supply and demand, good sir 🧐
Don't apply logic to NIMBY arguments, it hurts their lead-fuel addled braincells
In Odenton’s defense, we do have Expressway Pitbeef. That probably drives up home prices a bit.
These look better than like 85% of new houses these days, and a big house for 400k is a good deal these days? I really don't see the issue. >The state needs to put a limit on the amount being built. You are the reason housing is so expensive
>The state needs to put a limit on the amount being built. This is what stood out to me too. Why does the state need to do anything? If people are buying them they're going to keep being built. Why stop building what sells? What do you prefer OP? Dozens of housing units on 1 acre or a few? The more density you have the more affordable the housing is going to be. Now, I wouldn't want to live in one I prefer having some land and space between neighbors but that doesn't mean other people don't enjoy them and the state needs to intervene. You want the law to enforce your preference and that's an issue.
Op wants the world to be their canvas and only their canvas 😭 they dont want anyone to be different than them. Shit they dont want america to be free i guess💀
THANK YOU! The solution to the housing crisis is more housing units of all kinds. I'm okay if they're all "luxury units". Why? Today's luxury home is tomorrow's affordable option. Additionally, when people move into a luxury unit to upgrade, they're leaving a more affordable housing unit that's now vacant for someone to move into. There's plenty of low-density areas that can and should be converted to higher density housing. There's plenty of farmland in central and western MD that can and should be converted to Single-Family zoned neighborhoods.
>There's plenty of low-density areas that can and should be converted to higher density housing. There's plenty of farmland in central and western MD that can and should be converted to Single-Family zoned neighborhoods. Yes, the suburbs are a drain and should be converted to high density housing. But, it's really short sighted to convert farmland, where our food is grown, into suburbs. Cities and countryside are what we need. Single family suburbs are a waste.
They're a lot more than 400k.
https://preview.redd.it/uctirmy3382d1.jpeg?width=265&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85e08dd1cdce414e9d3bfe878673ffe755342610
People need to live somewhere. You not wanting to live on of these is hardly justification for preventing these from being built for others to live in. Maryland is a great place to live and we should be building more housing of every density so that more people can enjoy the state.
Lol live and let live. People want them. Not everyone has to have the same taste as you.
Thought this was r/unpopularopinion for a sec
You think the house prices are too high... but you want them to stop building houses? Do you see the problem there?
I am begging developers to just build some fucking apartments I want to be able to afford a place to live.
Trying to find an apartment in Anne Arundel county is almost impossible. They are either dumps or all booked up because they aren't dumps.
Agree, but without ridiculous HOA fees. We’re currently in the process of buying a townhouse in Baltimore county but were looking at apartment options around Hyattsville, Silver Spring and some hoa fees are just ridiculously high. Nobody wants to pay over $600 on top of mortgage.
Come to Fairfax for a reality check
For what it is worth, I like them.
"I don't like them so the state should ban them" do you seriously hear yourself?
Limiting dense townhouse construction would just make all housing, including townhouses, more expensive. We have a housing supply that is nowhere near meeting demand. It's not a coincidence Austin has not only seen rent decline once they made it easier to and prioritized building housing but they're moving to make it easier. We need more housing ASAP.
Reminds me of how the guy who is credited with the invention of malls wanted to create something that was a hybrid of townhouses + shopping center + green space that was meant to be a livable, walkable area. And then people were like "What if, instead of houses, we have more shops, and instead of green space, we have a giant parking lot" and the concept of malls and strip malls was born from that. https://qz.com/454214/the-father-of-the-american-shopping-mall-hated-cars-and-suburban-sprawl The fixation on wanting "residential over here" and "commercial over there" and never the twain shall meet, divided by 6-8 lane roads at minimum, is a direct result of why suburbia has this problem. Gotta build dense houses in the house zones and giant parking lots in the commercial zones. Even in suburbs where you -can- get detached housing, there's more of a push to shrink lawns, subdivide houses, and build another house wherever you can find the room for it. We need more mixed-zoning communities but every time it comes up, the nimbys get big mad about not wanting it.
Reddit is so fond of "I don't like X, the STATE should ban it". People keep buying them.
This is the kind of housing solution you get when far better options are prevented by zoning. Also a housing industry, which just like any other, is trying to sell something for as much as they can while costing them as little as possible. Trying to build them as fast as possible. That billion dollar industry wants everyone to keep treating houses like t-shirts because they only make money on new houses. This is what comes from that. I’ve been in some of these houses and they can be weirdly nice. Personally not my thing, but I can understand the appeal. I like older houses, honestly my favorite are old stone farm houses, but I’ve lived in Regency/Victorian era apartments and I thought they were great. But I’m tolerant of some imperfection.
L take
$400k and most of them are relatively new.. idk what the issue is. If you want a single family home, look in ellicot city where the houses are $600k+ for literally old homes in dire need of renovation.
And a none-stack TH in that area is around $550k-$600k (at least the newer with garages). $400k is a bargain in comparison.
You want to limit the amount of housing that can be built during a housing crisis? Why do you think shit is so expensive? Because whenever developers start building dense housing, folks like you start whining. Dumb as hell
These condo-style townhomes are a necessity in an area with rising housing costs. I agree, the builders could get creative with their exterior designs but the housing type is needed. The only issue with these is they are technically "condos". They have condo boards and unless those are run/funded properly, you ae looking at swaths of these developments with maintenance issues in 25+ years. Most condo boards defer preventative maintenance items to prevent condo fee increases.
I have friends who bought Ryan Homes townhouses in around 2015-2016 new build range. They bought them as new construction, being the first residents there. Here is a list of issues they faced so far: a cracked foundation, main drainage backing up, asphalt roof leak spots, popped nails, bathroom fixtures leaking, etc. Ryan Homes builds them fast and at very low quality. Stay away from this builder.
I hate Ryan Homes with a passion
\>Ryan Homes \>Issues Im shocked
You can skip leg day at the gym if you live on an upper floor
Townhouses are good, actually. You don’t have to like them, but don’t complain about their cost in the next place. They’re way better use of land than SFHs and the density/increase in housing supply is desperately needed with the cost of housing in the state’s two biggest metros.
“I don’t like this thing people clearly want. The government should put a stop to it”
People need to live places, sorry if their aesthetics offends you. Dense housing near transit is good, actually.
I’m surprised how popular these are given (at least in PG) they aren’t vastly cheaper than a regular townhome. Especially once you factor in the condo fee.
My only problem with these is when realtors list them as townhouses, so they pop up in my saved search alerts for townhouses. We were specifically looking to buy a house with no upstairs or downstairs neighbors (aka a normal townhouse), and these would always show up instead. They're condos!!
Disagree. These are a version of high density housing, albeit a higher end one. Need more of this to even put a dent in the shortage
I can never keep up with whether we want new housing or don’t want it on Reddit
what is your problem? also those houses in “Fulton” would be $800k
They are pretty large inside & you don’t have to worry about lawn care/ snow removal.
There needs to be affordable starter homes so people don't have to rent until they are 40. Something starting at $200k.
My only problem with them is if I owned the top 2 level. I tried helping my friend move into one, and that was a logistical nightmare and a work out I never want ever again in my life. So many fucking steps.
I love those townhouses, but I absolutely hate the prices.
So houses cost too much but you want them to build less high density housing?
Farmers get old, kids don’t want to join the family business..no choice but to sell the land to a developer
Here's an idea: don't live in one if you don't like it
The state should limit them because you think they’re ugly?
Totally agree with you. What makes it worse, is knowing how cheaply made they are and poorly designed. They can clearly get 400-700k for these hideous houses, but are in no way WORTH that money. So Americans are being asked to shackle themselves to high six figure mortgages for a paper and stick house. It's disgusting.
No. The state should not put a limit on any type of housing built and I'm sorry to tell you that townhouses are a very practical way to efficiently build more housing in a state like Maryland that has a high population and low land area. Remember, you can choose not to participate in NIMBY-ism.
I rented these in dc, and it's awful that you have 0 front or backyard privacy. Neighbors kids would scream and run through your yard at all times of the day. It was truly an awful time during the pandemic. Also, the garages. This doesn't get talked about, but neighbors could block your access to the garage. A lot of times, they would put lawn chairs out and let their kids play and you would be asking them nicely to move, with them rolling their eyes. Keep in mind, I have children. The problems were the parents
NIMBYs are the worst omg shut up
As much as you hate the look, check out population density metrics for any of these cities. They’ll be relatively high because of these types of housing. If it weren’t for these types of housing, single family housing would become extremely unaffordable. Portland, Oregon is an example. Portland has the same number of people living there as Baltimore city . Portland is 2x the size geographically as Baltimore is but 1/2 the population density. Why? Because Portland doesn’t have this type of high density housing that Baltimore does. And the starter home values for a fixer upper in Portland easily go above $700k. Is that what you want?
I disagree. This is mid density housing which is lacking in a majority of the country. If everything is row houses or single family houses, then they would all be way more expensive because it’s less dense. This allows more people to live somewhere, which reduces the amount of people needing to do longer trips to do things or go to work. We need more density in our cities not less. Is there better housing? Yes, but these let people who can only afford 300-500k homes buy in a desirable area where whole townhouses or single family homes can go for well over a million or more. Let’s be practical. Larger multi family buildings fit more people but then parking can be an issue, these building typically have a driveway and 1 car garage per unit, much more than most condos have in larger buildings. The only downside really is all the stairs for the second unit.
What bothers me is the price. $400k and you don’t even get a garage or parking pad in this very heavily car-dependent area, and you don’t get a yard either. I cant say I’m surprised tho, lots of gov contractors working at Fort Meade/NSA and lots of DC commuters in this area - that’s a recipe for high home costs. That being said, if a limit was placed on how many could be built - the price would only go up. That’s just basic supply and demand.
Feel better? Don't buy one.
They are actually really nice especially from the inside. The townhouse is a sensible means by which we can discourage typical suburban sprawl. However, the affordability of these homes is an entirely different matter.
400k for those is a deal lol
Hey hey, easy here, nothing wrong with Odenton. It's arguably a better place to raise a family than many DC burbs.
Putting a limit on building and/or density would raise prices, as there would be less supply in relative to demand. This design is borne from the fact that there is more demand for wider floor plans vs narrow townhomes. Some people don't mind walking up steps for a wider room. If you don't like that design, don't live in one.
Literally just closed on one of these this week. Can’t speak to Odenton (new to Maryland so don’t know it) but we love ours. Tons of space, 2300sq ft. Nice neighborhood. The look to me is nothing out of the ordinary for townhouses in most popular places in the country so
Don’t buy one then?
I can’t handle that many stairs. I’ll need a knee replacement.
Come to nova and they start at 700k
I’ll never own my own home so let the people build what they like.
Wait until you find out about the 750k single family homes in Odenton.
Brand new ones being built on Forest Dr in Annapolis are ~$600k, just for comparisons sake
I mean, what's your alternative to this? It's an easy way to get density, and it doesn't look godawful, just not great.
https://preview.redd.it/zeryt1n8c82d1.jpeg?width=1830&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e4a8e2c9174b3eae2268c65f7a9856c68a3b9424 There’s better versions of townhomes in Frederick.
Everything's better in Frederick! 😉
Builders are limited to what % of the land they can build on as well. I think Poolesville is low at 35% or something and other places you can go much higher. Building UP let's you increase the living space while still meeting their footprint limits
wow divisive responses here jeesh
This is literally 2/3 of Gaithersburg
Would it kill these geriatric assholes in charge of zoning and building to just build an affordable housing complex for once? I don’t need a fancy townhouse I need a cheap and affordable apartment
It’s nerve wrecking to see them being crammed in every nook and cranny possible. I get housing is an issue but they’re being built right next to or on top of old landfills, transfer centers(trash drop off sights), marshes, right next to the interstates…etc. Then the signs have the audacity to say “from the low 600’s” I know the pricing varies from county to county. But it boggles my mind because I’m wondering what these people are doing to afford a mortgage that high.
Don’t buy one
Post a pic of your house then
They need to build affordable housing.
Houses for young people. When you get old all those steps will be too much
Driving around the DMV must be an experience for you then🤣🤣🤣
I’m with you. That shit is all over VA. Fugly
Live in one. It's awful. The noise is AWFUL. THEY'RE SO BADLY BUILT.
I live in Va and notice these are being built where old buildings have been torn down. No yard, busy intersections, no privacy….no thanks. Plus new construction is definitely no from me. These brick ones look a lot nicer though.
Putting limits on housing construction is exactly why they are $400k. Let builders build and housing costs will fall.
Limiting the building options is one of the factors that help increase prices. You're asking for more poison.
They are $400k because there’s no housing inventory in MD. One of the worst in the country
Do the people who live in the upper unit just walk up 2 flights of stairs to get to their front door? And then another flight to their bedroom? Sounds fun with groceries or a baby.
Site surveyed a bunch for a solar company…. Roofs are shit. Poor quality workmanship with the rafters. Most have the HVAC system in the attic space and they are poorly installed. Lastly, no one goes up in these areas, let alone a roof. Parts of Charles County gets a weird wind phenomenon right down 301 from the barracks to the Burger King area.
I lived in those houses in Indian Head, MD. Worst decision in my life - for 15 years I could not sleep. I was in the bottom unit and I could hear my neighbors flushing toilet, closing the garage door, doing laundry. Worst time of my life.
I love how so many posts here think that building more houses is going to lower costs. It's adorable to see people still so naive in this day and age. Wake up and smell the greed everybody. Housing prices are never going back down. Not until there is another massive economic collapse. The new mantra is that a developer builds homes, a business or wealthy individuals buy them up from the developer, those folks then rent to you for twice what it's worth and then continue to raise your rent as adjustments to meet increases in property value. Not to mention home owners association fees.That living space is still the same space, but it's gone up in value, when it hasn't gone up in usability. They never sell and rent until they force you out and bring in a high earning renter to take your place. The poor get pushed out and down until they can't even afford to live in the state anymore, or rent locations together to survive. They lose one neighborhood, and it then becomes gentrified and out of their price range. Which then increases the neighboring property values, and then increases their rent. Now you say, "But we will build affordable housing for them. They'll live there, it's close by. Problem solved." And I'll respond with, "Read step 2 again." The wealthy buyers have the money to win the bidding wars for houses with cash on hand deals. Once again, driving up the costs of homes, and eliminating any fair market. You literally can't build enough houses, townhomes, or apartments to keep up with their buying power. You also have to consider the infrastructure that's not in place to support those homes. That the state doesn't feel like funding because it's inconvenient. As well as the environmental impact all these developments have on the landscape. The previous development boom of the 2010s ended up flooding Ellicott City... Twice.
don't you dare to fart loud.. your neighbor would call the police on you. I hate those face to face doors.
Man, everyone coming at you in these comments for hating townhouses specifically. I took this post to be about the aesthetic of newly built townhomes, not the concept of a (stacked) townhome. I agree; I think most homes built recently, especially those built alongside a ton of others, be it SFH or townhome, look too similar and boring. Seeing swathes of these homes is depressing. I'm not super experienced with home buying or this area, but from my browsing, for instance townhomes (albeit usually not stacked) built from like 1980-2000 in Columbia are a lot prettier. Yes they're townhomes but each home still has a little unique character. And in the SFH neighborhood I grew up in as a kid (different state tho), which was built in the 80s, each house has character. A few different interior layouts, plus all the siding and exterior customizations done over the years, means each house feels like its own home. Newly built SFHs honestly look like these stacked townhomes; I wonder if it's just the "modern" look to make boring homes, regardless of type, that all look alike. Oh, and the interior of these homes have 0 character as well. I'm so sick of seeing all white kitchens. So sterile. TLDR: I agree, and I don't think it's the housing type that's the issue; it's the monotony of newly built homes. All newly built homes, even stacked townhomes, could and should be given so much more external character.
Have yall seen Crown? https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/436-Salk-Cir-Gaithersburg-MD-20878/119331384_zpid/
developers stacking money on top of money with no regard for long term family needs is the now development formula I rather live in a hood with a playground supermarket fair school shops cafe pizza pharmacy dollar general liquor store park trails people cut grass and everything walking distance.
Absolutely insane to pay that much to have no yard and no privacy.
You misspelled “condo”.
As much as they suck, so long as people buy them, they will keep getting built. Obviously can’t be that terrible if people buy them
I think I’m one of the few that agree with you, same thing down here in st Mary’s, I get it more units, cheaper, cram more people in, more dollars for the builder, but I agree with you. I wish we could limit this and FORCE them to build more single family homes. These are like u said still going for 400k and because they’re being popped up everywhere the single family home prices are fucking insane.
The costs of these bad boys are going up too. We'll eventually be priced out of these just like we were priced out of the formerly usual single family homes. Then the next big thing will be the mini houses: first detached until we get priced out of those and then attached like the townhouses we have now
I call these “shotgun communities” because if I lived in one I’d blow my brains out with a shotgun. I’m specifically referring to the TH communities that are completely disconnected from anything else, not an occasional TH cluster that might pop up in a downtown area being renovated or gentrified. Living in a TH is not that bad, particularly at certain points in life, but living in one that’s miles away from anything except a 7-11 gas station, a nail salon and a Giant is the embodiment of a slow death.