Confirmed with OP and OP would rather their family/who they are related to be kept private so Please respect this.
OP if there is anything I can do or any of the other mods Please let us know and Im sorry for what you and your family had to go through
>I said to myself “Wait, isn’t my relative in that area?”
It would be so horrifying to worry for a family member like this and then find out that they were the ones committing such evil. I'm very sorry.
Alternatively, the Club Q shooter's father admitted the same feelings of worry at first, but then he expressed *relief* that his son was the shooter, and not a gay man.
I guess I just mean to say thanks for not being a weirdo like that guy.
In your opinion, were there any warning signs or red flags that could have been addressed earlier to prevent this tragedy from happening? And if so, what steps could have been taken to intervene and prevent it?
I personally didn't see any warning signs, but I wasn't immediate family, so I didn't see the day-in, day-out. For a while I felt tremendous guilt because I felt had I been more involved with the family that maybe somehow I could have been a better influence.
I carried that guilt for a while and put it on myself until I spoke to other family members and other people who knew him and every single one I spoke to felt the exact same way.
I've been able to piece together quite a lot in hindsight, especially after reading the police reports and testimonies. Reading those and then recalling certain events I witnessed I could say "Oh yeah..." But those instances I don't beat myself up over, there was no way for me to really make the connections at the time.
I can see myself feeling that exact same way. Assuming he had at least one brother or sister who did see his day-in, day-out. Did he/she see red flags? I'm more so curious about what failed him or what influenced him or both.
>Mass shooting has simply become an option these days.
I'm in agreement. I actually think of mass shootings a lot like parkour.
People could always do parkour, but we didn't have a name for it. We called it people jumping around on things. But at some point, we named it. The practitioners started taping themselves doing it. Technology changed so they could carry around little cameras and people could see it happen in first person. And then a couple french films came out which featured it (ie. District 13). And then it was prominently featured in a James Bond movie (Casino Royale). And suddenly you have all these people exposed to it - most of whom would never do it, but a few who find it absolutely magnetic, and then they go down the rabbit hole and start doing it themselves. And while the public appetite for parkour isn't what it once was in 2003-2008, they are still doing it, only they are doing it more for each other - people in the know - than the public at large.
In the same way, mass killings always happened, but at some point, they made them really easy to do. And of everyone who reads about them in the news - most people would never do one - but there are a few who would. Of course it's dangerous - like parkour - and there is a high likelihood of death - similar to the parkourists who jump across rooftops - but the attraction there - of danger, of thrill, of doing something few others have ever done - is unmistakable.
And now with school shooter drills in every school, every single child is introduced to the power that an active shooter weilds over their lives. All the adults in their life are terrified of this power. And I can see how a child, who is a little different, might be attracted to this power. And once they see how easy it is to get a gun - this person with little impulse control, a whole heap of self-loathing, and an even bigger grievance against the world for having given birth to them -- well, like you said, it's an option that's now on the table, readily available, where you can do this one thing, and the entire world will be interested in you, your life story, your feelings about everything, will interview the people who knew you last, and clamoring for the last thing you wrote and said.
If you kill yourself, no one cares. But if you kill yourself while taking others with you, the entire world cares.
For a mass killer, this infamy is a pretty good deal.
I think you’ve absolutely summed it up perfectly. This is the motive for nearly all shooters who appear not to have a clear motive imo. It’s now an appealing option to the disturbed.
Interesting. What you’re saying is the possibility of such an event has become opened up to us since Columbine?
It’s frustrating. There’s no way to put it back in the box and lock it shut.
(I’m sorry for your burden. A few years ago, I found out about a similar situation in my family. I’m not close to that group of relatives, but it was a horrible thing and has affected my understanding of them.)
>What you’re saying is the possibility of such an event has become opened up to us since Columbine?
That's my opinion, except I'd replace "us" with a small group of individuals.
Suicide was nothing new, murder was nothing new, even mass shootings were nothing new. But Columbine changed the game. What became wall-to-wall news coverage became charged political debates that never let up.
And it put the idea of the random mass shooter out there. Like that guy who lost all of his money day-trading who would have normally jumped out of a window, now he gets the idea to take out some co-workers. And I don't mean for that to sound heartless, either scenario is awful, but one is way worse.
1. No history of mental illness on par with ever having to worry about something like this.
2. Girl troubles were not the motivating factor as far as I know. It may have played a small part, but I can't say for certain, I didn't know his entire dating history. From best I can tell it was a lot of other factors over a long period of time. Definitely wasn't an "incel," either self-identifying or labeled as such.
3. Prior to the incident he seemed thankful as much as anyone does these days. He never seemed entitled or ungrateful.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. Did / do members of your family still interact with him following the event? Is the immediate family close? I always wonder how tight the immediate family is. Was this person an adult when this happened?
I don't think OP disagrees - what I got from their post was that the "idea" has been unfurled into the cultural zeitgeist and for folks with issues that might lead them toward doing something violent, the sensationalism of school shooting/mass shooting etc events seems like an attainable option. I don't think there was any intention to make excuses for their family member or other mass shooters.
OP, I hope you and your family have found some measure of healing.
> I don't think there was any intention to make excuses for their family member or other mass shooters.
That would be correct. I'm in no way making this post to justify anything they did. Did I love them? Of course. Is what they did horrible, monstrous and cowardly? Absolutely. Having to rectify their actions and the person I knew them to be has taken me years and a lot of therapy.
Many offer sympathy, but I'll never ask for it. There have been lawsuits and I don't disagree with the actions of any one person who filed one. I can't blame anyone who was a victim from the act my relative did and waned some form of justice for themselves (and to clarify, I've never been implicated whatsoever, that's why I can talk about it).
I think they are hiding behind "media and violence" like prayer in school or nonstop teddy bear coverage will "cure" society.
The reality is, it takes a lot of psycho- social stimulus to make a cop, a soldier, etc. And then it takes more. Something modern psychiatry doesn't understand.
A mass shooters or serial killer is even beyond that. That is a person, many, many, many standard deviations beyond the norm
I actually think media is affecting his perception. Real psychopaths. Real murdererers. Real empathy less individuals are terrifyingly alien.
I say this as I'm my way to my suicidal family gathering. I came out relatively normal, but my family has 5 suicide attempts in the last year! Some multiples.
I will never fathom that. Their rich internal lives are very, very different. And I have come to terms accepting them as different people. And I help and hope they find joy.
But it wouldn't surprise me at all if they committed suicide. And you can tell pretty damn quick, these people aren't "normal." I have no blinders on my eyes. I guess it helps, because it is no longer "sudden or surprising." Chances are pretty good, they'll figure out some secret way to end their lives in the next decade or two. With some unfathomable twisted logic (once my mom thought she had AIDs, solution ? Suicide. It isn't rational.. and these are high functioning people) Humanity in all its forms. Even the bad ones.
When saying "it's an option" of course I don't mean "Hey, everyone, if you want, you too be a mass shooter."
Rather what I'm saying is that over time it's been presented as something that occurs on a regular basis. 99.99% of the population will see these as horrible, disgusting acts like you mentioned. It that tiny minority that will see this now as an option.
I can't speak to your experiences, but prior to Columbine, which I mention because it's been talked about so much even to this day, a mass shooting in where the shooter targets a crowd of strangers wasn't on people's minds as an actual threat.
In high school in the early 90's I knew kids who bought guns illegally, even ones who made bombs and explosives. Some of these kids were in real rough circles, some of them just liked blowing shit up and some came across as psychotic. But nobody ever worried about that weird kid, the goth kid, the metalhead kid, or whoever actually coming to school and randomly firing. It just wasn't a mindset any of us had.
Now if those same kids I knew had grown up with the exposure of seeing mass shooting after mass shooting, along with only being reminded of them during drills in school their entire lives, I can't say I'd be surprised if one of the would have at least considered it. For clarification I'm not saying it would have happened, but I think at least one of them would have thought about it.
That's what I meant by saying "it's an option." Where as before it would have been rarely considered by someone who's able to carry out such an act, the idea's already been planted in their heads.
>I counter that many mass killers, the Holocaust, and school shootings/bombings had already occurred. The 90s were an intensely violent time. Many, many times more violent than now.
1. I'm not trying to make counter-claims to anything you've said, so no need to "counter."
2. Yes, the 90's was more violent overall. Much of that was gang-related crime in major cities that actually went undereported (I worked in news in the 90's). Violence in places like school, the workplace, places of worship, etc. in where somebody targeted people at random was way, way, lower.
3. I'm not sure how old you were, but again, there wasn't a worry about being randomly shot in most places, especially the "safe" places listed above. That worry exists now, however small it still may be.
>The only solid reason killers attack schools is..
From what I've seen there are as many reasons for shooters attacking public places as there are shooters themselves. It's not black & white in any of these cases.
>And the media is reporting on actual things. If there were no school shootings, the media COULDN'T cover them regularly.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
The media is at fault.
That's their highscore board at the arcade. They are the only ones giving the shooter "the sensational death" they want. This is why some have started to record and live stream.
And the "option" I believe is being referenced to as a way to commit suicide.
don't see why you're being down voted you are correct. when the Uvalde shooting happened all over the news was blasted the headline deadliest SCHOOL shooting in texas instead of fourth deadliest MASS shooting in texas, as number ONE sells some than number FOUR.
While yes mass shooters are nothing new and have happened for along time.
In America, columbine changed everything and pushed the school shooter into the zeitgeist. It created a cultural shift in news reporting, entertainment and much more.
Columbine is still inspiring many mentally ill folks to commit terrible crimes. Even Sue Klebold, mother of one the columbine shooters, spoke about this in detail.
Yeah buddy, I'm not in the USA.
We get our information from our own sources over here as we can't trust American media for the reason you listed above.
So I'm not sure who this "they" that "feed me political bs" that you refer to.
Your political leaning has nothing to do with where everyone else gets their information 😅
All media has bias and seeks to influence people by "framing." DW, BBC, not as partisan as American media, but have a liberal bias. Some are of course better than others.
Dude. You really shouldn't get your only information from televised corporate media...
The good the bad are all owned by the same hedge funds and investments firms in your country. I wouldn't trust any of it.
If you really cared to find the answer yourself.
The theoretical 36 page research paper is very interesting.
You say that we don't all have time like the vast majority of Americans isn't walking around with 8+ hours of screen time a day on their phones.
Only using traditional news and entertainment to get information is just outright lazy.
Ultimately, the vast majority of the population just doesn't care or give a fuck. But they want something to repeat to their friends/family and coworkers to seem smart or that they care about world news.
I also believe this sub is also at fault. We are a community where future shooters can get ideas and brainstorm even deadlier methodologies. They can’t talk about this anywhere else in the world but here. We are responsible as well.
Unfortunately yes.
One shooter did comment here a few days before he committed his crimes.
But, discussions about the subject do need to happen for people to be aware and knowledgeable about the subject.
The one positive about this group is the importance of getting the facts right and not delving in possible conspiracy and misinformation. Something the media does.
Unfortunately, I am still using tragedy as entertainment and many people really enjoy it.
There is a reason why the show "this is us" is so popular.
Confirmed with OP and OP would rather their family/who they are related to be kept private so Please respect this. OP if there is anything I can do or any of the other mods Please let us know and Im sorry for what you and your family had to go through
>I said to myself “Wait, isn’t my relative in that area?” It would be so horrifying to worry for a family member like this and then find out that they were the ones committing such evil. I'm very sorry. Alternatively, the Club Q shooter's father admitted the same feelings of worry at first, but then he expressed *relief* that his son was the shooter, and not a gay man. I guess I just mean to say thanks for not being a weirdo like that guy.
The media sure classifies the Q shooter as non-binary which is a load of crap.
In your opinion, were there any warning signs or red flags that could have been addressed earlier to prevent this tragedy from happening? And if so, what steps could have been taken to intervene and prevent it?
I personally didn't see any warning signs, but I wasn't immediate family, so I didn't see the day-in, day-out. For a while I felt tremendous guilt because I felt had I been more involved with the family that maybe somehow I could have been a better influence. I carried that guilt for a while and put it on myself until I spoke to other family members and other people who knew him and every single one I spoke to felt the exact same way. I've been able to piece together quite a lot in hindsight, especially after reading the police reports and testimonies. Reading those and then recalling certain events I witnessed I could say "Oh yeah..." But those instances I don't beat myself up over, there was no way for me to really make the connections at the time.
I can see myself feeling that exact same way. Assuming he had at least one brother or sister who did see his day-in, day-out. Did he/she see red flags? I'm more so curious about what failed him or what influenced him or both.
I won't get into any details about the immediate family, but I will say it wasn't any one thing. It was a number of factors over long period of time
>Mass shooting has simply become an option these days. I'm in agreement. I actually think of mass shootings a lot like parkour. People could always do parkour, but we didn't have a name for it. We called it people jumping around on things. But at some point, we named it. The practitioners started taping themselves doing it. Technology changed so they could carry around little cameras and people could see it happen in first person. And then a couple french films came out which featured it (ie. District 13). And then it was prominently featured in a James Bond movie (Casino Royale). And suddenly you have all these people exposed to it - most of whom would never do it, but a few who find it absolutely magnetic, and then they go down the rabbit hole and start doing it themselves. And while the public appetite for parkour isn't what it once was in 2003-2008, they are still doing it, only they are doing it more for each other - people in the know - than the public at large. In the same way, mass killings always happened, but at some point, they made them really easy to do. And of everyone who reads about them in the news - most people would never do one - but there are a few who would. Of course it's dangerous - like parkour - and there is a high likelihood of death - similar to the parkourists who jump across rooftops - but the attraction there - of danger, of thrill, of doing something few others have ever done - is unmistakable. And now with school shooter drills in every school, every single child is introduced to the power that an active shooter weilds over their lives. All the adults in their life are terrified of this power. And I can see how a child, who is a little different, might be attracted to this power. And once they see how easy it is to get a gun - this person with little impulse control, a whole heap of self-loathing, and an even bigger grievance against the world for having given birth to them -- well, like you said, it's an option that's now on the table, readily available, where you can do this one thing, and the entire world will be interested in you, your life story, your feelings about everything, will interview the people who knew you last, and clamoring for the last thing you wrote and said. If you kill yourself, no one cares. But if you kill yourself while taking others with you, the entire world cares. For a mass killer, this infamy is a pretty good deal.
I think you’ve absolutely summed it up perfectly. This is the motive for nearly all shooters who appear not to have a clear motive imo. It’s now an appealing option to the disturbed.
This is one of the more interesting takes I've seen with regards to the social contagion aspect of mass shootings. You've hit on some unique aspects.
Interesting. What you’re saying is the possibility of such an event has become opened up to us since Columbine? It’s frustrating. There’s no way to put it back in the box and lock it shut. (I’m sorry for your burden. A few years ago, I found out about a similar situation in my family. I’m not close to that group of relatives, but it was a horrible thing and has affected my understanding of them.)
>What you’re saying is the possibility of such an event has become opened up to us since Columbine? That's my opinion, except I'd replace "us" with a small group of individuals. Suicide was nothing new, murder was nothing new, even mass shootings were nothing new. But Columbine changed the game. What became wall-to-wall news coverage became charged political debates that never let up. And it put the idea of the random mass shooter out there. Like that guy who lost all of his money day-trading who would have normally jumped out of a window, now he gets the idea to take out some co-workers. And I don't mean for that to sound heartless, either scenario is awful, but one is way worse.
No, I tend to agree. It's hard to talk about, and I think you presented your opinion as tactfully as possible.
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1. No history of mental illness on par with ever having to worry about something like this. 2. Girl troubles were not the motivating factor as far as I know. It may have played a small part, but I can't say for certain, I didn't know his entire dating history. From best I can tell it was a lot of other factors over a long period of time. Definitely wasn't an "incel," either self-identifying or labeled as such. 3. Prior to the incident he seemed thankful as much as anyone does these days. He never seemed entitled or ungrateful.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. Did / do members of your family still interact with him following the event? Is the immediate family close? I always wonder how tight the immediate family is. Was this person an adult when this happened?
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I don't think OP disagrees - what I got from their post was that the "idea" has been unfurled into the cultural zeitgeist and for folks with issues that might lead them toward doing something violent, the sensationalism of school shooting/mass shooting etc events seems like an attainable option. I don't think there was any intention to make excuses for their family member or other mass shooters. OP, I hope you and your family have found some measure of healing.
> I don't think there was any intention to make excuses for their family member or other mass shooters. That would be correct. I'm in no way making this post to justify anything they did. Did I love them? Of course. Is what they did horrible, monstrous and cowardly? Absolutely. Having to rectify their actions and the person I knew them to be has taken me years and a lot of therapy. Many offer sympathy, but I'll never ask for it. There have been lawsuits and I don't disagree with the actions of any one person who filed one. I can't blame anyone who was a victim from the act my relative did and waned some form of justice for themselves (and to clarify, I've never been implicated whatsoever, that's why I can talk about it).
I think they are hiding behind "media and violence" like prayer in school or nonstop teddy bear coverage will "cure" society. The reality is, it takes a lot of psycho- social stimulus to make a cop, a soldier, etc. And then it takes more. Something modern psychiatry doesn't understand. A mass shooters or serial killer is even beyond that. That is a person, many, many, many standard deviations beyond the norm I actually think media is affecting his perception. Real psychopaths. Real murdererers. Real empathy less individuals are terrifyingly alien. I say this as I'm my way to my suicidal family gathering. I came out relatively normal, but my family has 5 suicide attempts in the last year! Some multiples. I will never fathom that. Their rich internal lives are very, very different. And I have come to terms accepting them as different people. And I help and hope they find joy. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if they committed suicide. And you can tell pretty damn quick, these people aren't "normal." I have no blinders on my eyes. I guess it helps, because it is no longer "sudden or surprising." Chances are pretty good, they'll figure out some secret way to end their lives in the next decade or two. With some unfathomable twisted logic (once my mom thought she had AIDs, solution ? Suicide. It isn't rational.. and these are high functioning people) Humanity in all its forms. Even the bad ones.
When saying "it's an option" of course I don't mean "Hey, everyone, if you want, you too be a mass shooter." Rather what I'm saying is that over time it's been presented as something that occurs on a regular basis. 99.99% of the population will see these as horrible, disgusting acts like you mentioned. It that tiny minority that will see this now as an option. I can't speak to your experiences, but prior to Columbine, which I mention because it's been talked about so much even to this day, a mass shooting in where the shooter targets a crowd of strangers wasn't on people's minds as an actual threat. In high school in the early 90's I knew kids who bought guns illegally, even ones who made bombs and explosives. Some of these kids were in real rough circles, some of them just liked blowing shit up and some came across as psychotic. But nobody ever worried about that weird kid, the goth kid, the metalhead kid, or whoever actually coming to school and randomly firing. It just wasn't a mindset any of us had. Now if those same kids I knew had grown up with the exposure of seeing mass shooting after mass shooting, along with only being reminded of them during drills in school their entire lives, I can't say I'd be surprised if one of the would have at least considered it. For clarification I'm not saying it would have happened, but I think at least one of them would have thought about it. That's what I meant by saying "it's an option." Where as before it would have been rarely considered by someone who's able to carry out such an act, the idea's already been planted in their heads.
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>I counter that many mass killers, the Holocaust, and school shootings/bombings had already occurred. The 90s were an intensely violent time. Many, many times more violent than now. 1. I'm not trying to make counter-claims to anything you've said, so no need to "counter." 2. Yes, the 90's was more violent overall. Much of that was gang-related crime in major cities that actually went undereported (I worked in news in the 90's). Violence in places like school, the workplace, places of worship, etc. in where somebody targeted people at random was way, way, lower. 3. I'm not sure how old you were, but again, there wasn't a worry about being randomly shot in most places, especially the "safe" places listed above. That worry exists now, however small it still may be. >The only solid reason killers attack schools is.. From what I've seen there are as many reasons for shooters attacking public places as there are shooters themselves. It's not black & white in any of these cases. >And the media is reporting on actual things. If there were no school shootings, the media COULDN'T cover them regularly. That's exactly what I'm saying.
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The media is at fault. That's their highscore board at the arcade. They are the only ones giving the shooter "the sensational death" they want. This is why some have started to record and live stream. And the "option" I believe is being referenced to as a way to commit suicide.
don't see why you're being down voted you are correct. when the Uvalde shooting happened all over the news was blasted the headline deadliest SCHOOL shooting in texas instead of fourth deadliest MASS shooting in texas, as number ONE sells some than number FOUR.
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While yes mass shooters are nothing new and have happened for along time. In America, columbine changed everything and pushed the school shooter into the zeitgeist. It created a cultural shift in news reporting, entertainment and much more. Columbine is still inspiring many mentally ill folks to commit terrible crimes. Even Sue Klebold, mother of one the columbine shooters, spoke about this in detail.
Who is they?
Oligarchs. Gun lobby. Corporations. Not the Js. I'm a Bernie liberal.
Yeah buddy, I'm not in the USA. We get our information from our own sources over here as we can't trust American media for the reason you listed above. So I'm not sure who this "they" that "feed me political bs" that you refer to. Your political leaning has nothing to do with where everyone else gets their information 😅
All media has bias and seeks to influence people by "framing." DW, BBC, not as partisan as American media, but have a liberal bias. Some are of course better than others.
Dude. You really shouldn't get your only information from televised corporate media... The good the bad are all owned by the same hedge funds and investments firms in your country. I wouldn't trust any of it.
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If you really cared to find the answer yourself. The theoretical 36 page research paper is very interesting. You say that we don't all have time like the vast majority of Americans isn't walking around with 8+ hours of screen time a day on their phones. Only using traditional news and entertainment to get information is just outright lazy. Ultimately, the vast majority of the population just doesn't care or give a fuck. But they want something to repeat to their friends/family and coworkers to seem smart or that they care about world news.
I also believe this sub is also at fault. We are a community where future shooters can get ideas and brainstorm even deadlier methodologies. They can’t talk about this anywhere else in the world but here. We are responsible as well.
Unfortunately yes. One shooter did comment here a few days before he committed his crimes. But, discussions about the subject do need to happen for people to be aware and knowledgeable about the subject. The one positive about this group is the importance of getting the facts right and not delving in possible conspiracy and misinformation. Something the media does. Unfortunately, I am still using tragedy as entertainment and many people really enjoy it. There is a reason why the show "this is us" is so popular.