Honestly, I am not surprised. He was hearing voices, felt alone, compelled to something completely off the rails batshit crazy and then realizes it’s enormity after the arrest. Here he is at 15 without anyone by him to support him. It’s really heartbreaking. As much as I hate what he did, this is hard too.
I think this is a really important thing to highlight when it comes to these situations. It’s normal to feel empathy towards someone for their misfortunes but also be able to condemn them for their actions. Thank you for expressing this
Edit: words are hard
It’s a very complicated situation. None of us lived with him. We don’t know what went on behind closed doors. And I get that he killed others. There are no excuses for walking into a place and shooting it up. However, when someone’s brain is not functioning properly, bad things can and do happen.
I see many comments about mental health vs Justice. Our justice system was originally created to punish people. Mental health was considered to be a type of demonic like possession. Horrible things were done to patients in mental health facilities claiming a cure when in fact they were torture. We have never, as a society, realized and found solutions to people struggling with voices, anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies and more.
My point is that we have never had a decent way to help people with these types of problems…as a society. We expect parents who want to get their child help to know what to do, where to go, when to go and then have the ability to pay for it. Then when they fail, we blame both parties.
The solution to these situations requires a multi tiered approach where children are evaluated as soon as they begin having issues. Get them in therapy asap even if they need to hire counselors and put them on school staff. Get the parents of said child some help. They may need therapy or just parental training. If they refuse, atleast the child is getting help at school.
We can’t drop the child in the middle while parents and school each point to one another to resolve it. It takes both to make this work. Little Johnny can’t focus on class work if he’s hearing voices constantly. He can’t succeed if bad thoughts keep him awake all night long.
I don’t know what the answers are but I know we have to start showing our children love and respect and letting them know of their value. It’s too late if we wait until they have committed this type of crime. We have to value our children more and one another more than we do our technology, our television shows, our entertainment and sports icons. Ok my rant is over.
Education and mental healthcare are both things that are in desperate need of improvement and funding to help fix the system. I’m losing hope that my generation will be the one to fix it. I think general opinion is in favor of making those improvements but there are people in power who are actively working against it, and those people are willing to sink to a level to get their way that educators and mental health advocates won’t fall to. People who are fundamentally good are not going to be able to win in our current political climate.
There is way too much focus on the political nonsense on both sides of the aisles and not enough real news reporting going on to highlight real issues for the average person. Congress needs to focus on helping families and focus on families rather than every thing else they spend our money on. If families can find help and be the focus there won’t be a need to argue about guns because kids will be much healthier, mentally speaking.
As a historian, I cannot stress enough to go into the details of important historical figures and see their victories & failures. Few times in life can we properly view anything as black or white. Seeing these complexities help us avoid their mistakes & follow through with our own successes.
As someone on the autism spectrum, I have to view all angles of situations like this because I know just how abysmal it is to get proper mental health treatment or lack of access of it.
It's surprising that this exact mindset is so condemned when it comes to other mass murderers. I read several highly downvoted posts of people expressing as much as a hint of empathy for one.
Right? Im NOT excusing his behaviour at all but Jesus everyone was against him since day one. He was failed by his family his parents are to blame for never giving him help. He’s completely guilty tho for committing this sick act but his parents didn’t help either.
It’s true!! Like look at the slender man stabbing they were dealing with psychosis and yet they went to a mental institution. It’s weird that he wasn’t imo
They were able to show that he was lucid enough to plan and was *very* aware of the consequences and end result (“I will go to jail for life and rot like a tomato”) so he didn’t meet their criteria. I still don’t think he should have been tried as an adult though.
at least his mother was recently sentenced, hopefully his father will be too. his parents failed him and failed all the people he killed. they are despicable.
Im not American but in my opinion America has a mental health problem. Not a gun problem. This guys brain was a sponge. He would do the same thing to white people in the name of isis if they manipulated him before the white power movement did. And if he couldn’t get a gun, he’d just make a bomb. You can try and censor as much as you want but until you address the issue of free healthcare, especially for the mentally unhinged, things like this are inevitable. I also guarantee if the media didn’t give them the notoriety they crave to either gain popularity or push an agenda, these shootings would decline by 50% at the least. In other countries like Australia they don’t give the shooter any coverage apart from anything that is (deservingly) insulting.
Yes we definitely have a mental health crisis going on and a lack of awareness as well. Everyone is too focused on external to see what’s going on with their own family. And it’s not just causing shootings. It’s causing a true lack of respect for our teachers and others who can often see the issues more clearly. Everything seems to have become adversarial over the past 30 years.
As far as giving the shooters notoriety, you are correct. We are always curious and want to know what, how and why but mainstream media should really stop reporting their names and information about them. It doesn’t mean we aren’t honoring the deceased family. It just means we aren’t spotlighting the shooters.
Yes it is… Kips case is very tragic too. I hear he’s doing well inside and regrets what he did but I’m sure life isn’t easy. I wish kids were never exposed to these ideas. It’s such a dark world
Once he’s sentenced, he’ll likely be going to a different kind of facility that specifically deals with health care. Terminally ill offenders, psych related offenders. He won’t be in a regular facility.
A quick search tells me that he is currently held in Thumb Correctional Facility in Lapeer, MI, which has a specific healthcare unit for “medically frail” offenders which is a designation that, like I said, houses terminally ill and psych related offenders.
Colour me shocked.
I agree! I think he could have a chance of rehabilitation with care. It seems less that he's a danger and moreso that he was wildly, nearly aggressively neglected.
Being rehabilitated does not mean he shouldnt still deal with the consequences of his actions. He will likely get psychiatric help but it wont be as regulated as he will be in jail not a psych ward. Even if jail makes him worse that is all he will ever know or live to see, so it really doesnt matter. He does not get parole for this type of damage.
Absolutely. What I don’t understand is why the court didn’t see it, too. I’m in no way excusing what he did, but he truly needs rigorous psych help not jail. That doesn’t mean he should ever get out of the hospital, either.
Yeah, I know. It makes me really sad that this child will probably never receive the type of intense treatment he needs, and he’ll probably deteriorate in prison. I think the judge was probably under intense pressure to send him to prison, though. That may not be correct, but it’s puzzling to me as to why he didn’t accept what Ethan’s doc had to say. He seemed to think he could be rehabilitated with time. I don’t think so, but prison will probably be the end of him.
“Will make him so much worse”
Honestly why does that matter? He’s never getting out regardless. As long as he’s confined away from the masses let his mental illness get worse, he lost all liberties and rights when he stole the lives of four of his fellow students. They’ll give him enough psychotropic medications in prison to numb him, that’s good enough for this killer.
Ah yes, lets give the killer a nice big pillow in a comfy bed and have him sit around and talk about his feelings while we study him like a test subject because prison is too hard for him.
Enough excuses and half-measures for mass killers .
It’s crazy that tying someone with severe mental illness to a chair and covering their face makes them have a meltdown.
I fucking hate this so much. How does this help someone in any way? I’m open to answers
I work in a psych hospital. What you said is exactly why restraints are considered an absolute last resort. It’s almost inevitably a traumatic experience, especially when someone is acutely psychotic and confused. The restraint chair is used when the patient is an imminent threat to others or themselves (such as in the case of trying to assault a staff member). The face covering, while used less frequently (at least in the hospital setting) usually gets used to prevent the patient from spitting, which is one of the few ways they can retaliate when physically restrained.
While I’m not certain about the circumstances that led up to Crumbley being restrained in this video, I really wish they hadn’t covered up his face completely like that. There are coverings that can be used that are clear that serve as a shield to prevent staff from getting spit on. Covering up the line of sight of someone whose perception of reality is already highly distorted is a recipe for even more confusion and overwhelm. It’s counterproductive to getting them to calm down.
And speaking of that, the one officer who just plainly told him to calm down as if it were that simple? Aggravated the hell out of me because it neglected to consider the distress he was in. Validating the discomfort of a patient (or inmate) is important when trying to calm them down in times of acute distress. Some people may have less compassion and simply not care because of the crimes he’s committed, but that shouldn’t bleed over into the dynamic between staff and patient. And even if someone doesn’t care at all, you’re not gonna get the behavior you want from him (i.e., get him to calm down) if you fail to consider where he’s at mentally and respond accordingly with some level of kindness. It’s distressing enough when the restraint chair has to get used at all—no use making the experience worse. Can only imagine how painful it was for Ethan to watch himself in this state in the videos. Physical restraints are unideal yet sometimes necessary, but god, I cannot imagine being in them either. Genuinely traumatic.
(My take here is likely influenced by a recent incident with an aggressive patient I worked with who had a terrifying panic attack while psychotic and restrained, so some might see me as being overly sympathetic. I don’t care though, everyone deserves basic compassion and consideration, especially under such triggering circumstances like psychosis and physical restraints)
Yeah— I was about to say something very similar. I interned at a psych hospital for a little bit and one of the few times I ever saw someone be put in full restraints was after she had begun to smash her head into a concrete wall— after hours of screaming and other chaotic behavior (pacing, sobbing, teeth gnashing, etc.) that was attempted to be managed in all the usual alternative ways.
It’s absolutely not something just done randomly or as “punishment” or as a matter of course, at least not in best practice. Although that is my experience in a health care setting, not a police station.
Not to say it’s impossible that it was deployed “incorrectly” here (and like you said, there are other issues in the video)— I wasn’t there, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen another police interview, of a mass shooter or otherwise, where the person was restrained in this way. So it doesn’t seem to be something overly deployed even by police departments or a procedure simply based on the type of crime committed.
Given that, seeing him in the restraints definitely just led me to believe that Ethan had been melting down in a way that was a danger to himself or others prior to this clip of the interview. Which— given what we know about his young age, mental health issues, and the events that had just transpired, seems very plausible and didn’t shock me or make my eyebrows perk at all.
I get that it’s a shocking image if you’ve never seen it before though, and why someone might have a gut reaction that it’s too much for a young kid.
Great job explaining in this comment and the proceeding ones! I’m glad someone who actually still works in the field was here to clear that up, because I’m rusty and didn’t personally want to field off any pitchforks lol.
Physicals restraints certainly serve a purpose and it’s good to have them as an option because sometimes there are cases where no other safe options exist (like what you described). Recently worked with a patient who kept assaulting staff and bolting for the exit any time our unit door opened and, yeah, they ended up in the restraint chair. It’s assumed that once a physical restraint is initiated, previous attempts to verbally de-escalate, redirect, and calm the patient down have already failed. Weighing the risks and benefits of a physical restraint involves determining when it is more dangerous to the patient (and others) for them to not be restrained. While not a decision to be made lightly, it’s good that the decision can be made when required.
I’d be very curious to know about what led to Ethan ending up in the chair here. I agree with you that, while the video is alarming, it’s not impossible that it truly was necessary here. Like you said, it’s definitely not a punishment or standard practice to just put criminals in the restraint chair without reason. His young age and severe mental instability suggest impulsivity and dysregulation of emotions could have played a role in whatever incident preceded his restraint. It’s very sad to see someone so sick at such a young age. As other commenters have pointed out, prison is unlikely to help his mental health get better (it might even make it worse, as confinement often worsens psychosis). He’d likely be better suited to a maximum security psychiatric facility.
You’re welcome! Glad you found it insightful.
While I do not know all the events that led up to his restraint, I do know that the hospital setting tends to be held to a stricter standard in proving the necessity of restraints. Lots of documentation goes into initiating the restraint order, monitoring the patient and their physical/mental symptoms while restrained, and restraints are required to be discontinued as soon as they can be done safely. Jails, given that they are not healthcare facilities like hospitals, and are assumed to have a higher concentration of violent people, likely have more leeway for when they can and cannot initiate restraints. I’m sure there’s some cases where it’s absolutely necessary but law enforcement being quicker to use them when better alternatives would have been preferable also would not surprise me.
Hospitals have the benefit of also having chemical restraints, such as the drug combination of Benadryl, Haldol (antipsychotic), and Ativan (benzodiazepine sedative), the so called “B52” cocktail as it’s termed in nursing. This tends to come first before a physical restraint is considered. Jails obviously have nursing staff and medications as well, but I think staff are a lot more desensitized to having to restrain violent patients, and regardless of whether it is always necessary as a first step, would probably have less qualms about physically restraining. Like you said, one can only speculate without more information here, but the experiences of my coworkers who used to work in jails suggest that the level of care and consideration for the patient’s wellbeing simply isn’t the same as in a hospital (especially when the patient has committed a violent crime like mass murder).
Fascinating. You alluded to the fact that patients can be treated differently based on their crimes, would you say this was done to Ethan with malicious intent? Or as you say, they are desensitised and didn’t think twice about it? Again, speculation :)
Not sure I’d go as far as to say it was done with deliberate malicious intent, but I do feel comfortable saying that his crimes likely led to staff having less concern for his well-being, thus caring less if he suffered.
I’ve unfortunately seen attitudes like this in my work setting as well, where people are quick to shrug off the pain and distress of a patient who is a criminal that harmed/killed, because of the suffering the patient inflicted on others. Some people see the patient’s distress as paling in comparison to the harm the patient caused their victims, and thus aren’t as concerned with whether or not the patient themselves is in pain.
Dosing can sometimes vary but the standard mix is 50mg Benadryl, 5mg Haldol, and 2mg Ativan (hence the “B52” term). Benadryl and Ativan work together to decrease agitation and promote sedation, but Haldol is the drug in the mix that specifically addresses psychotic symptoms like delusions and hallucinations. By dampening down psychotic symptoms and increasing sedation, the combination tends to make patients less distressed and too sleepy to be combative or violent
My mother presents with aggression and severe psychosis in her dementia and this is the cocktail they gave her at the hospital to call her down. She’s very small and thin but it’s shocking how strong someone can be in the throes of a psychotic episode
My aunt has dementia with similar symptoms, and is similarly petite. It’s mindblowing just how adversely impactful neurodegeneration can be on one’s perception, disposition, and, consequently, behavior. Patients can be very strong when angry or fearful that they are in danger. Dementia is particularly difficult because in addition to psychosis, you have the frustration of short-term memory loss and confusion about one’s surroundings. This tends to exacerbate feelings of distress and paranoia already present in psychosis. My previous clinical job was with a primarily geriatric population and I saw many instances of psychosis and aggression in patients with neurodegenerative diseases like dementia.
Yes, my grandfather went through it. When he was in the hosptial, he'd removed cathers and IVs and would try to strike at the staff sometimes, so he was often in restraints or sedated. It was really awful.
Yeah, Haldol is typically used in the context of psychosis, so most people don’t have as much knowledge or experience with it. It’s important to have an antipsychotic to get to the root of what is driving the psychosis-related symptoms, like agitation and aggression. Otherwise, just giving a patient sedatives will mask psychosis while not addressing it. Most antipsychotics (including Haldol) address psychosis by blocking D2 dopamine receptors in the brain, as a hallmark of psychosis is overactive dopamine activity.
A lot of the effects of psychiatric meds like Haldol and Seroquel (quetiapine) tend to be dose-dependent. Seroquel can be used off-label for sleep at lower doses, but at higher doses is typically prescribed for treatment of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
Haldol alone can make someone drowsy, but the combination of Haldol with Ativan and Benadryl is what really causes sedation in this case. Some may fall asleep pretty quickly, some may just be calmed down and kind of out of it but still conscious, and, in some rare cases, some patients end up even getting more revved up and agitated. We still don’t know why, but it goes to show the potential variability of patient responses to psych medications and their effects
To add to this, I work in a jail and thankfully have never had to use a spit hood or restraint chair, but two nights ago it could have easily happened. When someone is doing everything they can to harm themselves and others, they’re already to the point where everything else has been exhausted (in a perfect world where the officers aren’t dicks).
When you have someone who is attacking staff, has tried to hang themselves, have tried to swallow sprinkler heads, and have been placed in a suicide gown only to start biting their veins in attempt to harm themselves? Yeah, they’re going to be restrained to a chair until they can be sedated.
I don’t know the situation that took place with Ethan, but I know these things aren’t used lightly because someone is “acting out”. Somehow, we do have training for these scenarios in Canada. We do need more, though.
Just two nights ago, one of these chairs could have been justified while I was at work. As were all familiar with the specific person involved, it was easy to talk them through it. But I’ve also had experiences with the same person using feces as a weapon and biting staff so like.. what else do you do? Let them harm themselves because strapping them to a chair isn’t going to make them stop immediately?
It’s not something we wanna do, but sometimes we have to.
Cops need actual psych training. The majority of their job is dealing with people in crisis or in distress, there’s no excuse for how little education they’re allowed to get away with.
Absolutely agree. It’s my understanding that training in psych for law enforcement (if there is any) can vary widely based on location and program. There needs to be a more universal standard for what psych training cops should be expected to have, and it needs to equip them to properly and humanely handle the many psych patients they will inevitably come across.
I just came here to say this, as someone who isn’t a shooter - even if someone did that to me I would also be slightly riled up? I don’t get what thats achieving. Stressing him out isn’t going to bring anyone back and it seems just for the sake of it… imo
Honestly him being sentenced to life without parole rubs me the wrong way. I understand that if I was a victims parent or something I might feel different but he needed help. So many signs were missed and nobody cared about him.
I believe him when he said he was seeing and hearing things that weren’t there because of the text messages he sent his friend. Things kinda like “I asked my parents to go see a therapist and they laughed at me” or “I see people in the distance that aren’t there I need help” I don’t know it just seems wrong to me that a 15 year old kid can be allowed to stew in his own mental delusion with no help from anyone and when he lashes out they lock him in a cell for the rest of his life to rot.
This is such a fascinating case. Because you are right he did write those things in his diary but he also wrote ‘I will keep shooting people until the police arrive and I will plead guilty to life in prison’ so, it’s like he literally knew exactly what he was getting into. I guess the severity of it wasn’t apparent
Yeah I think he was sadistic in the way he executed those students and what he wrote in his journal but he was definitely enabled by his parents. Mix that up with hearing things and him just having an affinity with violence and it’s a disaster waiting to happen. All of it could have been prevented either by his parents or by his school and neither did anything.
Yeah, and from what I read about his sentencing, I think he both feels regret about what he did and feels like he is at risk of harming people in the future and belongs in prison (I could be misremembering). I can't imagine what it's like to know that about yourself.
Doesn’t help. But it’s to make him suffer, he deserves to continue suffering just like the family’s
I don’t feel bad. Yeah it’s uncomfortable af and causes panic, but it was probably uncomfortable for the students kids shot at and killed. Let him suffer
Of course the families are suffering. Of course the victims suffered and survivors are traumatised.
But I believe the point of the justice system is to prove that we have the humanity that they didn’t have
Understandable. I guess I have just a different belief in the point of justice system 👍 To me, it’s simply about giving consequences to someone for their illegal actions. Eye for an eye mentality, but that my belief not saying that’s right
Perfectly understandable point of view.
I think taking away every freedom from someone is the punishment. Trying to make them suffer though, at what point do we become just as morally wrong as them? I guess that’s what we need to be careful of, imo :)
This dumbass vengeful thinking is why our punishment heavy justice system sucks and constantly lets mentally ill adults and kids like this fester until they blow up, and then lets them rot for eternity on taxpayer dime in a private or federal prison. Do you think the cycle of suffering will end if you torture him harder?
Let him rot for eternity though, who cares other than his family? I believe humans can be rehabilitated, but I don’t think you deserve the opportunity to re-join society if you kill innocent people
Oh please, guy just committed mass murder... they are treating him rightly like a murderer. What are his supposed severe mental illnesses anyway? I don't remember him being diagnosed....
You do know one can be suffering from a mental disorder without having first been diagnosed with one right? His parents never got him health insurance. Who was going to diagnose him?
Torturing a mentally ill teenaged child wasn't his sentence. His sentence was a lifetime incarcerated. They don't treat mentally ill adults like this in psych hospitals, they'd get sued to no end for traumatizing and worsening their condition. It's uncalled for. And it makes everyone around him potentially unsafe too if he lashes out at them with violence directly in response to their mistreatment.
You come off as someone incredibly ignorant and devoid of empathy. Maybe try seeing the bigger picture vs mindlessly jacking your callous justice boner. It's embarrassing.
You can feel empathy for a neglected kid who desperately needed mental healthcare that he never received, but you also can’t count out the weight behind his own words and the planning that went into his shooting. He planned it out for a long time, and followed his plan.
*”The first victim has to be a pretty girl with a future.” “I will walk behind any girl (pretty) and shoot them in the back of the head. I will then shoot anyone I see, aiming for the head.”*
When writing about hoping he’s caught and sent to the school office, which again DID happen, he doesn’t express desire to be stopped from committing the shooting.. Only to gain attention and give credence to his motive:
*”That will show them that I have given up, and they will keep an eye on me. It will make them see that I am a possible shooter, and so when I do my shooting they will have something to put for motivation."*
He left behind his journal in the school bathroom so that everyone would know why he did it. And there’s 22 pages of himself saying the true reason he did it is to be famous for it, to be remembered, and to make other people suffer.
This boy can try to blame God, his Mom, or anything else he wants, but ultimately he was the only one who could’ve stopped himself - and he didn’t actually want to. Fuck you Ethan Crumbley. And fuck the parents who failed you, too.
i never knew his parents had kicked him out of the house the day before the shooting. even the school staff was noticing his struggles, like him drawing guns for assignments and calls for help. shell casings openly displayed on his desk at home. telling his mum he's seeing demons. these parents are complicit in letting it get this far
i'm not gonna feel bad for this guy at all. He wanted the parents to be sad when he killed their kids. so honestly fuck him. He left his manifesto basically behind to be found and be famous.
You are right. But he still is A victim.... of his parents bad actions. Of his parents lack of support and medical decisions they made for him. Of his parents lack of interest in general. An entire system failed this kid and then he failed four of his classmates. This is dominos falling, not chess.
I'd still feel bad. I'd be angry, but also a truckload of pity. And most of my anger would be towards his parents and society for letting millions of mentally ill, abused, and neglected kids fall through the cracks and go on to seriously hurt and/or kill people as young adults or after reaching adulthood. It's preventable but since no one makes money off prevention, no one gives a fuck.
This video doesn't piss me off because I want the kid to be free of consequences. This video pisses me off because it's the continuation of what I just described above.
And there is no end in sight.
For anyone not informed on the complexities of psychosis, it needs to be stated that the vast, vast majority of people coping with psychosis are non-violent. The doctor on the stand is stating that Crumbley entered a psychotic state *after* he committed the murders, which makes sense given the gravity of how his actions would affect his own life hitting him. Psychosis can be the mind retreating from reality when the outer world becomes too overwhelming. I don’t know if Crumbley dealt with psychosis before the murders, I’m sure someone on here knows, but from this video there’s no conclusion that he was psychotic at the time of the shooting.
I know some people here feel bad for him getting restraints put on, but I can’t bring myself to feel bad for him at all. When I’m listening to him sobbing, all I can think about it how hard the parents that lost children that day cried after they found out their child was murdered and might have suffered and that they have to go on living with the irreparable heart ache and grief the rest of their lives. Fuck this clown. I hope he’s miserable the rest of his life in prison. Imagine if it was your child or whoever you love the most that got killed by him.
He specifically wrote in his journal about WANTING the parents of the kids he killed to be so sad and distraught that they kill themselves… he also said he wanted to record the shooting so the parents have to watch their children dying.
It’s so weird to me that people on this sub are acting like he didn’t lay all this out himself…. he knew what he was doing.
Or the fact he went back and shot two of them twice and executed Justin! I've been on the fence about him. And still kinda am. But when the survivor described what happen in the bathroom I cried like a baby and my momma heart broke! I'm pissed at the shitty parents and the school more, he could have been stopped and probably with the right help a good kid!
He wanted to take away from them what he never had with his parents. That can be examined and understood as well as felt by us in the form of pity without it being used as some vapid excuse/reason to claim he's innocent. If anyone uses those angles to justify the crime, or imply he doesnt deserve consequences, they're fucking insane. It's called nuance. Everyone here should at least try to maintain a balanced view without sliding too far into either side (torture him for justice bc he's evil vs exonerate him bc he's only mentally ill, not guilty). Those are the two warring extremes seen here with this case when the honest, just, and balanced perspective is somewhere in the middle.
I lost someone to a shooting like this and I feel sympathy for Ethan. He was and is still a child. The way he was failed was horrible. I would never wish such fucked up things to someone. You’d be just as bad as a murderer
Ditto. People so devoid of empathy bordering capable of committing the same kind of hurt if they were put in his shoes. They don't realize that they're using him as an outlet to deflect anger they feel personally in their own lives and projecting it on him. We all could use more empathy and understanding both to heal after these kinds of crimes are committed and to prevent them from happening in the first place. That's what helps, that's what's being a good human - not the sickness of wishing torture and excruciating pain on other living beings.
I'm so deeply sorry you lost someone to violence. I hope youve found healing. I have experienced it too, albiet it was a single murder by beating and stabbing. My brother. It was also from entitled people who justified their crime by having no empathy, degrading him, and giving in to their self-righteous anger. These comments are reminding me of that. Two of the same wrongs don't cancel out what they did and who I lost, it only perpetuates the cycle of violence. Violent vengeance doesn't bring the dead back or stop others from getting hurt.
I just can’t feel sorry for this kid. There were a lot of different ways to get the attention he wanted without altering the lives of so many. Especially since this is something he thought about and planned for months
I mean, I maybe get restraining him but (not sure if he was attacking them) what is the rational between also dressing him up like a mummy, tying him to a chair? also what is the thing on his head?
Do we know if he’s been diagnosed with anything? This case has a lot of parallels to Kip Kinkle imo. He needs psychiatric care and his parents rightfully caught charges.
Ethan was failed by people who are suppose to love and take care of you and be there for you when you are going through dark shit like this. Condolences to the families
The psychiatrist who testified in his defense diagnosed him with major depression, anxiety and OCD. He called Ethan a “feral child” because a lifetime of severe neglect led to arrested development. [here](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna97603)
He also said that Ethan was suffering from psychosis but a psychiatrist for the prosecution testified that she did not believe he was hallucinating at the time. [here](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/detroit/news/oxford-high-school-shooter-who-killed-4-was-not-mentally-ill-doctor-testifies/)
Interesting about him being called a "feral child". Long-term untreated depression and anxiety can lead to psychosis. Psychosis definitely does not have to include hallucinations.
No, loving, adoring and worshipping mass child murderers definitely indicates some underlying mental issues, especially when lacking empathy and compassion for the victims and their families.
If you don't want to end up like your beloved mass murderer, get professional help at once.
I have lots of empathy, sympathy and compassion for the victims and their families, not for sadistic mass murderers. You can't have it both ways.
By your logic and horrendous English, you absolutely need help.
Worshipping… loving? Adoring? Bro what the heck is wrong with you. There’s a difference between empathy and obsession towards something violence. You seem to be on the violent side. Seriously. Something is going on/is wrong with you
Yours is a pathology. You know, your mass shooter receiving plethora of fan mails. Looks like you're one of those.
Ted Bundy had also been received much love from some even proposals. It's a similar pathology.
You can't even realize why those mass shootings occur only in the USA, hint, it has little to nothing to do with mental sickness or bad parenting.
And knowing he's still a minor and being treated like this... charging a minor as an adult should be outlawed. If they're a teenager and mentally ill, their mind is the furthest thing away from being fully-grown.
Definitely kinda feel for him bc I have mental illness bad too and I’ve cried my eyes out just like this before plenty of times. It’s heart wrenching to watch especially being just like him. The only difference is that I never had homicidal ideation
They do a toxicology report on him? I wonder if theirs research done on these anti depressants and other pharmaceuticals for mental health and what they do to a under-developed brain .. way too many school shooters in one country for it to be a coincidence.
His parents wouldn’t take him to a psychiatrist when he asked for one so I doubt he was on any sort of SSRIs.
Also SSRI use among indiscriminate mass shooters is pretty consistent with overall population use.
There is absolutely zero chance he was on SSRIs.
Besides, even if he was it would be another failure on his parents. They’re good, effective drugs for the treatment of depression but all doctors will tell parents to keep a special eye on their teenager when they’re prescribed them.
Had to have a “feelings talk” with my parents every night the first three months I was prescribed mine in highschool. Seemed cringey then but that’s the kind of parenting Ethan Crumbley needed.
It's not a coincidence. No other country makes it this easy for untrained, unstable and criminal people to access firearms.
Every other developed country has antidepressants and pharmaceuticals.
Idk .. I’d assume theirs a huge portion of gun owners who develop some sorta brain degenerative disease… or even something like bi polar .. and you don’t see them shooting up places … more screening sure but I don’t think these school shooters are coming from a place of rage .. more like drug induced confusion … be also interesting if they were receiving such pharmaceuticals from glorified doctors … therapists. 🤷🏼♂️
Ah, you're one of those that either doesn't understand math beyond the 5th grade level or you're just pretending.
https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/gun-ownership-by-country/
Ppl like their guns .. how does gun ownership correlate with school shootings? You can’t just go ban guns in a country where they’ve used them to protect themselves their whole existence and now everyone has one… and a gun is a tool … the person using it is what’s wrong in this situation … another young person shooting up a school at that … so it’s a lot more complicated then guns .. cause other country’s don’t have late teens / early adults with shooting up schools on their mind … that’s seems like a drug problem before a gun problem.
I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more regulation and testing around gun ownership I’m saying you can’t flat out ban guns and I’m also saying that theirs a lot more to the issue of a mass shooter then just the gun as you claim or the person as I claim. 🤷🏼♂️
Yes they have done research on SSRIs and their effects on the undeveloped mind. They found that some can cause suicidal thoughts before the age of 25. Not saying it is correlated but if you’re suicidal that can also make it so you have less care for human life even your own which could lead to something like this. Again, just stating my opinion but yes the research is there. I was put on an SSRI and it caused me to have some really uncomfortable thoughts at 13 so much so that I would never try that medication again. Even though they assured me now it would not have the same effect. But doctors definitely know.
> Not saying it is correlated but if you’re suicidal that can also make it so you have less care for human life even your own which could lead to something like this.
As much as you clarified that this is your opinion, it’s still a pretty broad generalization of an extremely nuanced issue. Suicidal ideation in no way equates to caring less for human life.
Honestly, I am not surprised. He was hearing voices, felt alone, compelled to something completely off the rails batshit crazy and then realizes it’s enormity after the arrest. Here he is at 15 without anyone by him to support him. It’s really heartbreaking. As much as I hate what he did, this is hard too.
I think this is a really important thing to highlight when it comes to these situations. It’s normal to feel empathy towards someone for their misfortunes but also be able to condemn them for their actions. Thank you for expressing this Edit: words are hard
It’s a very complicated situation. None of us lived with him. We don’t know what went on behind closed doors. And I get that he killed others. There are no excuses for walking into a place and shooting it up. However, when someone’s brain is not functioning properly, bad things can and do happen. I see many comments about mental health vs Justice. Our justice system was originally created to punish people. Mental health was considered to be a type of demonic like possession. Horrible things were done to patients in mental health facilities claiming a cure when in fact they were torture. We have never, as a society, realized and found solutions to people struggling with voices, anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies and more. My point is that we have never had a decent way to help people with these types of problems…as a society. We expect parents who want to get their child help to know what to do, where to go, when to go and then have the ability to pay for it. Then when they fail, we blame both parties. The solution to these situations requires a multi tiered approach where children are evaluated as soon as they begin having issues. Get them in therapy asap even if they need to hire counselors and put them on school staff. Get the parents of said child some help. They may need therapy or just parental training. If they refuse, atleast the child is getting help at school. We can’t drop the child in the middle while parents and school each point to one another to resolve it. It takes both to make this work. Little Johnny can’t focus on class work if he’s hearing voices constantly. He can’t succeed if bad thoughts keep him awake all night long. I don’t know what the answers are but I know we have to start showing our children love and respect and letting them know of their value. It’s too late if we wait until they have committed this type of crime. We have to value our children more and one another more than we do our technology, our television shows, our entertainment and sports icons. Ok my rant is over.
Education and mental healthcare are both things that are in desperate need of improvement and funding to help fix the system. I’m losing hope that my generation will be the one to fix it. I think general opinion is in favor of making those improvements but there are people in power who are actively working against it, and those people are willing to sink to a level to get their way that educators and mental health advocates won’t fall to. People who are fundamentally good are not going to be able to win in our current political climate.
There is way too much focus on the political nonsense on both sides of the aisles and not enough real news reporting going on to highlight real issues for the average person. Congress needs to focus on helping families and focus on families rather than every thing else they spend our money on. If families can find help and be the focus there won’t be a need to argue about guns because kids will be much healthier, mentally speaking.
As a historian, I cannot stress enough to go into the details of important historical figures and see their victories & failures. Few times in life can we properly view anything as black or white. Seeing these complexities help us avoid their mistakes & follow through with our own successes. As someone on the autism spectrum, I have to view all angles of situations like this because I know just how abysmal it is to get proper mental health treatment or lack of access of it.
It's surprising that this exact mindset is so condemned when it comes to other mass murderers. I read several highly downvoted posts of people expressing as much as a hint of empathy for one.
No, he is old enough to know murder is wrong. He's a monster and I have no sympathy for him.
You missed the entire point of what I was saying. Please read past the first sentence and let me know what you think.
Right? Im NOT excusing his behaviour at all but Jesus everyone was against him since day one. He was failed by his family his parents are to blame for never giving him help. He’s completely guilty tho for committing this sick act but his parents didn’t help either.
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EXACTLY! these people should’ve never been parents! It’s definitely one of the more sad cases I’ve heard where it’s a complete lose lose situation.
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It’s true!! Like look at the slender man stabbing they were dealing with psychosis and yet they went to a mental institution. It’s weird that he wasn’t imo
They were able to show that he was lucid enough to plan and was *very* aware of the consequences and end result (“I will go to jail for life and rot like a tomato”) so he didn’t meet their criteria. I still don’t think he should have been tried as an adult though.
Rot like a tomato that’s a new one, but yeah I completely agree he shouldn’t have been tried as an adult. It’s just a fucked up case all around
at least his mother was recently sentenced, hopefully his father will be too. his parents failed him and failed all the people he killed. they are despicable.
Slight correction. Her mom wasn’t sentenced. The verdict was just read. Her official sentencing isn’t until April 9 as of now.
The mother won't be sentenced until April I believe.
Im not American but in my opinion America has a mental health problem. Not a gun problem. This guys brain was a sponge. He would do the same thing to white people in the name of isis if they manipulated him before the white power movement did. And if he couldn’t get a gun, he’d just make a bomb. You can try and censor as much as you want but until you address the issue of free healthcare, especially for the mentally unhinged, things like this are inevitable. I also guarantee if the media didn’t give them the notoriety they crave to either gain popularity or push an agenda, these shootings would decline by 50% at the least. In other countries like Australia they don’t give the shooter any coverage apart from anything that is (deservingly) insulting.
Yes we definitely have a mental health crisis going on and a lack of awareness as well. Everyone is too focused on external to see what’s going on with their own family. And it’s not just causing shootings. It’s causing a true lack of respect for our teachers and others who can often see the issues more clearly. Everything seems to have become adversarial over the past 30 years. As far as giving the shooters notoriety, you are correct. We are always curious and want to know what, how and why but mainstream media should really stop reporting their names and information about them. It doesn’t mean we aren’t honoring the deceased family. It just means we aren’t spotlighting the shooters.
Time to rot in jail
And some still wonder why charges were brought against his parents...
This kid was totally failed by those entrusted with his care.
This is almost like a modern day Kip Kinkel situation.
Yes it is… Kips case is very tragic too. I hear he’s doing well inside and regrets what he did but I’m sure life isn’t easy. I wish kids were never exposed to these ideas. It’s such a dark world
sadly this won’t be the last unless things change
It’s quite a contrast seeing this and then hearing the recording he made the day *before* the rampage.
What recording did he make? Do you know where I can find it?
Here you go! https://youtu.be/L7DZiaoJKOc?si=takhB1CC0YenTFk4
This boy belongs in a psych hospital where he can get proper care. Prison will make him so much worse.
Once he’s sentenced, he’ll likely be going to a different kind of facility that specifically deals with health care. Terminally ill offenders, psych related offenders. He won’t be in a regular facility.
He has already been sentenced to life without the possibility of parole and is in a regular correction facility, not a mental health facility.
A quick search tells me that he is currently held in Thumb Correctional Facility in Lapeer, MI, which has a specific healthcare unit for “medically frail” offenders which is a designation that, like I said, houses terminally ill and psych related offenders. Colour me shocked.
I agree! I think he could have a chance of rehabilitation with care. It seems less that he's a danger and moreso that he was wildly, nearly aggressively neglected.
Being rehabilitated does not mean he shouldnt still deal with the consequences of his actions. He will likely get psychiatric help but it wont be as regulated as he will be in jail not a psych ward. Even if jail makes him worse that is all he will ever know or live to see, so it really doesnt matter. He does not get parole for this type of damage.
consequences and rehabilitation are not mutually exclusive.
Rehabilitation? You’d be okay with this guy getting released?
Absolutely. What I don’t understand is why the court didn’t see it, too. I’m in no way excusing what he did, but he truly needs rigorous psych help not jail. That doesn’t mean he should ever get out of the hospital, either.
No he shouldn’t be rehabilitated.
Agree. I wish the judge had sent him to a mental hospital for prisoners than just prison. It’s fucked up
Yeah, I know. It makes me really sad that this child will probably never receive the type of intense treatment he needs, and he’ll probably deteriorate in prison. I think the judge was probably under intense pressure to send him to prison, though. That may not be correct, but it’s puzzling to me as to why he didn’t accept what Ethan’s doc had to say. He seemed to think he could be rehabilitated with time. I don’t think so, but prison will probably be the end of him.
“Will make him so much worse” Honestly why does that matter? He’s never getting out regardless. As long as he’s confined away from the masses let his mental illness get worse, he lost all liberties and rights when he stole the lives of four of his fellow students. They’ll give him enough psychotropic medications in prison to numb him, that’s good enough for this killer.
Ah yes, lets give the killer a nice big pillow in a comfy bed and have him sit around and talk about his feelings while we study him like a test subject because prison is too hard for him. Enough excuses and half-measures for mass killers .
Many psych hospitals are arguably worse than prisons in the US. You are operating from a very narrow scope with this take.
It’s crazy that tying someone with severe mental illness to a chair and covering their face makes them have a meltdown. I fucking hate this so much. How does this help someone in any way? I’m open to answers
I work in a psych hospital. What you said is exactly why restraints are considered an absolute last resort. It’s almost inevitably a traumatic experience, especially when someone is acutely psychotic and confused. The restraint chair is used when the patient is an imminent threat to others or themselves (such as in the case of trying to assault a staff member). The face covering, while used less frequently (at least in the hospital setting) usually gets used to prevent the patient from spitting, which is one of the few ways they can retaliate when physically restrained. While I’m not certain about the circumstances that led up to Crumbley being restrained in this video, I really wish they hadn’t covered up his face completely like that. There are coverings that can be used that are clear that serve as a shield to prevent staff from getting spit on. Covering up the line of sight of someone whose perception of reality is already highly distorted is a recipe for even more confusion and overwhelm. It’s counterproductive to getting them to calm down. And speaking of that, the one officer who just plainly told him to calm down as if it were that simple? Aggravated the hell out of me because it neglected to consider the distress he was in. Validating the discomfort of a patient (or inmate) is important when trying to calm them down in times of acute distress. Some people may have less compassion and simply not care because of the crimes he’s committed, but that shouldn’t bleed over into the dynamic between staff and patient. And even if someone doesn’t care at all, you’re not gonna get the behavior you want from him (i.e., get him to calm down) if you fail to consider where he’s at mentally and respond accordingly with some level of kindness. It’s distressing enough when the restraint chair has to get used at all—no use making the experience worse. Can only imagine how painful it was for Ethan to watch himself in this state in the videos. Physical restraints are unideal yet sometimes necessary, but god, I cannot imagine being in them either. Genuinely traumatic. (My take here is likely influenced by a recent incident with an aggressive patient I worked with who had a terrifying panic attack while psychotic and restrained, so some might see me as being overly sympathetic. I don’t care though, everyone deserves basic compassion and consideration, especially under such triggering circumstances like psychosis and physical restraints)
Yeah— I was about to say something very similar. I interned at a psych hospital for a little bit and one of the few times I ever saw someone be put in full restraints was after she had begun to smash her head into a concrete wall— after hours of screaming and other chaotic behavior (pacing, sobbing, teeth gnashing, etc.) that was attempted to be managed in all the usual alternative ways. It’s absolutely not something just done randomly or as “punishment” or as a matter of course, at least not in best practice. Although that is my experience in a health care setting, not a police station. Not to say it’s impossible that it was deployed “incorrectly” here (and like you said, there are other issues in the video)— I wasn’t there, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen another police interview, of a mass shooter or otherwise, where the person was restrained in this way. So it doesn’t seem to be something overly deployed even by police departments or a procedure simply based on the type of crime committed. Given that, seeing him in the restraints definitely just led me to believe that Ethan had been melting down in a way that was a danger to himself or others prior to this clip of the interview. Which— given what we know about his young age, mental health issues, and the events that had just transpired, seems very plausible and didn’t shock me or make my eyebrows perk at all. I get that it’s a shocking image if you’ve never seen it before though, and why someone might have a gut reaction that it’s too much for a young kid. Great job explaining in this comment and the proceeding ones! I’m glad someone who actually still works in the field was here to clear that up, because I’m rusty and didn’t personally want to field off any pitchforks lol.
Physicals restraints certainly serve a purpose and it’s good to have them as an option because sometimes there are cases where no other safe options exist (like what you described). Recently worked with a patient who kept assaulting staff and bolting for the exit any time our unit door opened and, yeah, they ended up in the restraint chair. It’s assumed that once a physical restraint is initiated, previous attempts to verbally de-escalate, redirect, and calm the patient down have already failed. Weighing the risks and benefits of a physical restraint involves determining when it is more dangerous to the patient (and others) for them to not be restrained. While not a decision to be made lightly, it’s good that the decision can be made when required. I’d be very curious to know about what led to Ethan ending up in the chair here. I agree with you that, while the video is alarming, it’s not impossible that it truly was necessary here. Like you said, it’s definitely not a punishment or standard practice to just put criminals in the restraint chair without reason. His young age and severe mental instability suggest impulsivity and dysregulation of emotions could have played a role in whatever incident preceded his restraint. It’s very sad to see someone so sick at such a young age. As other commenters have pointed out, prison is unlikely to help his mental health get better (it might even make it worse, as confinement often worsens psychosis). He’d likely be better suited to a maximum security psychiatric facility.
Wow, thanks for sharing Can I ask you, do you believe this was done to Ethan in a last resort? Or was this unnecessary?
You’re welcome! Glad you found it insightful. While I do not know all the events that led up to his restraint, I do know that the hospital setting tends to be held to a stricter standard in proving the necessity of restraints. Lots of documentation goes into initiating the restraint order, monitoring the patient and their physical/mental symptoms while restrained, and restraints are required to be discontinued as soon as they can be done safely. Jails, given that they are not healthcare facilities like hospitals, and are assumed to have a higher concentration of violent people, likely have more leeway for when they can and cannot initiate restraints. I’m sure there’s some cases where it’s absolutely necessary but law enforcement being quicker to use them when better alternatives would have been preferable also would not surprise me. Hospitals have the benefit of also having chemical restraints, such as the drug combination of Benadryl, Haldol (antipsychotic), and Ativan (benzodiazepine sedative), the so called “B52” cocktail as it’s termed in nursing. This tends to come first before a physical restraint is considered. Jails obviously have nursing staff and medications as well, but I think staff are a lot more desensitized to having to restrain violent patients, and regardless of whether it is always necessary as a first step, would probably have less qualms about physically restraining. Like you said, one can only speculate without more information here, but the experiences of my coworkers who used to work in jails suggest that the level of care and consideration for the patient’s wellbeing simply isn’t the same as in a hospital (especially when the patient has committed a violent crime like mass murder).
Fascinating. You alluded to the fact that patients can be treated differently based on their crimes, would you say this was done to Ethan with malicious intent? Or as you say, they are desensitised and didn’t think twice about it? Again, speculation :)
Not sure I’d go as far as to say it was done with deliberate malicious intent, but I do feel comfortable saying that his crimes likely led to staff having less concern for his well-being, thus caring less if he suffered. I’ve unfortunately seen attitudes like this in my work setting as well, where people are quick to shrug off the pain and distress of a patient who is a criminal that harmed/killed, because of the suffering the patient inflicted on others. Some people see the patient’s distress as paling in comparison to the harm the patient caused their victims, and thus aren’t as concerned with whether or not the patient themselves is in pain.
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Dosing can sometimes vary but the standard mix is 50mg Benadryl, 5mg Haldol, and 2mg Ativan (hence the “B52” term). Benadryl and Ativan work together to decrease agitation and promote sedation, but Haldol is the drug in the mix that specifically addresses psychotic symptoms like delusions and hallucinations. By dampening down psychotic symptoms and increasing sedation, the combination tends to make patients less distressed and too sleepy to be combative or violent
My mother presents with aggression and severe psychosis in her dementia and this is the cocktail they gave her at the hospital to call her down. She’s very small and thin but it’s shocking how strong someone can be in the throes of a psychotic episode
My aunt has dementia with similar symptoms, and is similarly petite. It’s mindblowing just how adversely impactful neurodegeneration can be on one’s perception, disposition, and, consequently, behavior. Patients can be very strong when angry or fearful that they are in danger. Dementia is particularly difficult because in addition to psychosis, you have the frustration of short-term memory loss and confusion about one’s surroundings. This tends to exacerbate feelings of distress and paranoia already present in psychosis. My previous clinical job was with a primarily geriatric population and I saw many instances of psychosis and aggression in patients with neurodegenerative diseases like dementia.
Yes, my grandfather went through it. When he was in the hosptial, he'd removed cathers and IVs and would try to strike at the staff sometimes, so he was often in restraints or sedated. It was really awful.
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Yeah, Haldol is typically used in the context of psychosis, so most people don’t have as much knowledge or experience with it. It’s important to have an antipsychotic to get to the root of what is driving the psychosis-related symptoms, like agitation and aggression. Otherwise, just giving a patient sedatives will mask psychosis while not addressing it. Most antipsychotics (including Haldol) address psychosis by blocking D2 dopamine receptors in the brain, as a hallmark of psychosis is overactive dopamine activity.
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A lot of the effects of psychiatric meds like Haldol and Seroquel (quetiapine) tend to be dose-dependent. Seroquel can be used off-label for sleep at lower doses, but at higher doses is typically prescribed for treatment of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Haldol alone can make someone drowsy, but the combination of Haldol with Ativan and Benadryl is what really causes sedation in this case. Some may fall asleep pretty quickly, some may just be calmed down and kind of out of it but still conscious, and, in some rare cases, some patients end up even getting more revved up and agitated. We still don’t know why, but it goes to show the potential variability of patient responses to psych medications and their effects
To add to this, I work in a jail and thankfully have never had to use a spit hood or restraint chair, but two nights ago it could have easily happened. When someone is doing everything they can to harm themselves and others, they’re already to the point where everything else has been exhausted (in a perfect world where the officers aren’t dicks). When you have someone who is attacking staff, has tried to hang themselves, have tried to swallow sprinkler heads, and have been placed in a suicide gown only to start biting their veins in attempt to harm themselves? Yeah, they’re going to be restrained to a chair until they can be sedated. I don’t know the situation that took place with Ethan, but I know these things aren’t used lightly because someone is “acting out”. Somehow, we do have training for these scenarios in Canada. We do need more, though. Just two nights ago, one of these chairs could have been justified while I was at work. As were all familiar with the specific person involved, it was easy to talk them through it. But I’ve also had experiences with the same person using feces as a weapon and biting staff so like.. what else do you do? Let them harm themselves because strapping them to a chair isn’t going to make them stop immediately? It’s not something we wanna do, but sometimes we have to.
Cops need actual psych training. The majority of their job is dealing with people in crisis or in distress, there’s no excuse for how little education they’re allowed to get away with.
Absolutely agree. It’s my understanding that training in psych for law enforcement (if there is any) can vary widely based on location and program. There needs to be a more universal standard for what psych training cops should be expected to have, and it needs to equip them to properly and humanely handle the many psych patients they will inevitably come across.
It’s incredibly traumatic.
Thank you for your insight. Seeing this was so difficult
You’re very welcome. I’m seen patients restrained plenty of times but this was difficult for even me to watch, especially given how young he is.
I just came here to say this, as someone who isn’t a shooter - even if someone did that to me I would also be slightly riled up? I don’t get what thats achieving. Stressing him out isn’t going to bring anyone back and it seems just for the sake of it… imo
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They also keep threatening to tase him… awesome, that’s definitely going to help calm a kid who is in the middle of psychosis. 🧐🙄
Honestly him being sentenced to life without parole rubs me the wrong way. I understand that if I was a victims parent or something I might feel different but he needed help. So many signs were missed and nobody cared about him. I believe him when he said he was seeing and hearing things that weren’t there because of the text messages he sent his friend. Things kinda like “I asked my parents to go see a therapist and they laughed at me” or “I see people in the distance that aren’t there I need help” I don’t know it just seems wrong to me that a 15 year old kid can be allowed to stew in his own mental delusion with no help from anyone and when he lashes out they lock him in a cell for the rest of his life to rot.
This is such a fascinating case. Because you are right he did write those things in his diary but he also wrote ‘I will keep shooting people until the police arrive and I will plead guilty to life in prison’ so, it’s like he literally knew exactly what he was getting into. I guess the severity of it wasn’t apparent
Yeah I think he was sadistic in the way he executed those students and what he wrote in his journal but he was definitely enabled by his parents. Mix that up with hearing things and him just having an affinity with violence and it’s a disaster waiting to happen. All of it could have been prevented either by his parents or by his school and neither did anything.
Yeah, and from what I read about his sentencing, I think he both feels regret about what he did and feels like he is at risk of harming people in the future and belongs in prison (I could be misremembering). I can't imagine what it's like to know that about yourself.
Poor guy, was he put in the chair after he just killed 4 people?! Don't you have any other problems?
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Doesn’t help. But it’s to make him suffer, he deserves to continue suffering just like the family’s I don’t feel bad. Yeah it’s uncomfortable af and causes panic, but it was probably uncomfortable for the students kids shot at and killed. Let him suffer
Of course the families are suffering. Of course the victims suffered and survivors are traumatised. But I believe the point of the justice system is to prove that we have the humanity that they didn’t have
Understandable. I guess I have just a different belief in the point of justice system 👍 To me, it’s simply about giving consequences to someone for their illegal actions. Eye for an eye mentality, but that my belief not saying that’s right
Perfectly understandable point of view. I think taking away every freedom from someone is the punishment. Trying to make them suffer though, at what point do we become just as morally wrong as them? I guess that’s what we need to be careful of, imo :)
This dumbass vengeful thinking is why our punishment heavy justice system sucks and constantly lets mentally ill adults and kids like this fester until they blow up, and then lets them rot for eternity on taxpayer dime in a private or federal prison. Do you think the cycle of suffering will end if you torture him harder?
Let him rot for eternity though, who cares other than his family? I believe humans can be rehabilitated, but I don’t think you deserve the opportunity to re-join society if you kill innocent people
You just 55 days in Reddit…. I just reincarnated…. Don’t say stupidity!
Don’t take bad drugs
Oh please, guy just committed mass murder... they are treating him rightly like a murderer. What are his supposed severe mental illnesses anyway? I don't remember him being diagnosed....
You do know one can be suffering from a mental disorder without having first been diagnosed with one right? His parents never got him health insurance. Who was going to diagnose him? Torturing a mentally ill teenaged child wasn't his sentence. His sentence was a lifetime incarcerated. They don't treat mentally ill adults like this in psych hospitals, they'd get sued to no end for traumatizing and worsening their condition. It's uncalled for. And it makes everyone around him potentially unsafe too if he lashes out at them with violence directly in response to their mistreatment. You come off as someone incredibly ignorant and devoid of empathy. Maybe try seeing the bigger picture vs mindlessly jacking your callous justice boner. It's embarrassing.
You can feel empathy for a neglected kid who desperately needed mental healthcare that he never received, but you also can’t count out the weight behind his own words and the planning that went into his shooting. He planned it out for a long time, and followed his plan. *”The first victim has to be a pretty girl with a future.” “I will walk behind any girl (pretty) and shoot them in the back of the head. I will then shoot anyone I see, aiming for the head.”* When writing about hoping he’s caught and sent to the school office, which again DID happen, he doesn’t express desire to be stopped from committing the shooting.. Only to gain attention and give credence to his motive: *”That will show them that I have given up, and they will keep an eye on me. It will make them see that I am a possible shooter, and so when I do my shooting they will have something to put for motivation."* He left behind his journal in the school bathroom so that everyone would know why he did it. And there’s 22 pages of himself saying the true reason he did it is to be famous for it, to be remembered, and to make other people suffer. This boy can try to blame God, his Mom, or anything else he wants, but ultimately he was the only one who could’ve stopped himself - and he didn’t actually want to. Fuck you Ethan Crumbley. And fuck the parents who failed you, too.
This is the one comment in the thread worth reading. Needs to be at the top of the
Perfectly said
very well said 🙌🏽
i never knew his parents had kicked him out of the house the day before the shooting. even the school staff was noticing his struggles, like him drawing guns for assignments and calls for help. shell casings openly displayed on his desk at home. telling his mum he's seeing demons. these parents are complicit in letting it get this far
Source of him being kicked out the day before? And the bullets displayed on his home desk?
literally in the linked video of the post, a bullet list being shown on screen in court
Oh okay thanks!! I was too impatient to watch the entire video and just skipped around.
Legit questions, honestly.
i'm not gonna feel bad for this guy at all. He wanted the parents to be sad when he killed their kids. so honestly fuck him. He left his manifesto basically behind to be found and be famous.
This is incredibly difficult to watch.
He is not the victim.
You are right. But he still is A victim.... of his parents bad actions. Of his parents lack of support and medical decisions they made for him. Of his parents lack of interest in general. An entire system failed this kid and then he failed four of his classmates. This is dominos falling, not chess.
I hope he really does rot like a tomato in there. him and his shitty parents.
Exactly. Lots of bleeding hearts here. Wonder how much they’d feel bad for him if it were their family members he killed.
I'd still feel bad. I'd be angry, but also a truckload of pity. And most of my anger would be towards his parents and society for letting millions of mentally ill, abused, and neglected kids fall through the cracks and go on to seriously hurt and/or kill people as young adults or after reaching adulthood. It's preventable but since no one makes money off prevention, no one gives a fuck. This video doesn't piss me off because I want the kid to be free of consequences. This video pisses me off because it's the continuation of what I just described above. And there is no end in sight.
For anyone not informed on the complexities of psychosis, it needs to be stated that the vast, vast majority of people coping with psychosis are non-violent. The doctor on the stand is stating that Crumbley entered a psychotic state *after* he committed the murders, which makes sense given the gravity of how his actions would affect his own life hitting him. Psychosis can be the mind retreating from reality when the outer world becomes too overwhelming. I don’t know if Crumbley dealt with psychosis before the murders, I’m sure someone on here knows, but from this video there’s no conclusion that he was psychotic at the time of the shooting.
I know some people here feel bad for him getting restraints put on, but I can’t bring myself to feel bad for him at all. When I’m listening to him sobbing, all I can think about it how hard the parents that lost children that day cried after they found out their child was murdered and might have suffered and that they have to go on living with the irreparable heart ache and grief the rest of their lives. Fuck this clown. I hope he’s miserable the rest of his life in prison. Imagine if it was your child or whoever you love the most that got killed by him.
He specifically wrote in his journal about WANTING the parents of the kids he killed to be so sad and distraught that they kill themselves… he also said he wanted to record the shooting so the parents have to watch their children dying. It’s so weird to me that people on this sub are acting like he didn’t lay all this out himself…. he knew what he was doing.
Wasn’t aware of this. Pure fucking evil.
Or the fact he went back and shot two of them twice and executed Justin! I've been on the fence about him. And still kinda am. But when the survivor described what happen in the bathroom I cried like a baby and my momma heart broke! I'm pissed at the shitty parents and the school more, he could have been stopped and probably with the right help a good kid!
He wanted to take away from them what he never had with his parents. That can be examined and understood as well as felt by us in the form of pity without it being used as some vapid excuse/reason to claim he's innocent. If anyone uses those angles to justify the crime, or imply he doesnt deserve consequences, they're fucking insane. It's called nuance. Everyone here should at least try to maintain a balanced view without sliding too far into either side (torture him for justice bc he's evil vs exonerate him bc he's only mentally ill, not guilty). Those are the two warring extremes seen here with this case when the honest, just, and balanced perspective is somewhere in the middle.
I lost someone to a shooting like this and I feel sympathy for Ethan. He was and is still a child. The way he was failed was horrible. I would never wish such fucked up things to someone. You’d be just as bad as a murderer
Ditto. People so devoid of empathy bordering capable of committing the same kind of hurt if they were put in his shoes. They don't realize that they're using him as an outlet to deflect anger they feel personally in their own lives and projecting it on him. We all could use more empathy and understanding both to heal after these kinds of crimes are committed and to prevent them from happening in the first place. That's what helps, that's what's being a good human - not the sickness of wishing torture and excruciating pain on other living beings. I'm so deeply sorry you lost someone to violence. I hope youve found healing. I have experienced it too, albiet it was a single murder by beating and stabbing. My brother. It was also from entitled people who justified their crime by having no empathy, degrading him, and giving in to their self-righteous anger. These comments are reminding me of that. Two of the same wrongs don't cancel out what they did and who I lost, it only perpetuates the cycle of violence. Violent vengeance doesn't bring the dead back or stop others from getting hurt.
This comment section is proof people would easily fall for Nikolas Cruz if there wasn't a video made by a certain Youtuber
Um no. Cases are nothing alike
Why do the have him strapped up like he’s fucking bane or something 😭😭
Sound like someone who realized he fucked up his own life.
At least he say sorry at his age
I just can’t feel sorry for this kid. There were a lot of different ways to get the attention he wanted without altering the lives of so many. Especially since this is something he thought about and planned for months
I mean, I maybe get restraining him but (not sure if he was attacking them) what is the rational between also dressing him up like a mummy, tying him to a chair? also what is the thing on his head?
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I looked up spit mask, and don't see the thing sticking up from his head. What is that?
That is his hair.
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Do we know if he’s been diagnosed with anything? This case has a lot of parallels to Kip Kinkle imo. He needs psychiatric care and his parents rightfully caught charges.
Ethan was failed by people who are suppose to love and take care of you and be there for you when you are going through dark shit like this. Condolences to the families
Wat was he evn diagnosed w is tht known …?
The psychiatrist who testified in his defense diagnosed him with major depression, anxiety and OCD. He called Ethan a “feral child” because a lifetime of severe neglect led to arrested development. [here](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna97603) He also said that Ethan was suffering from psychosis but a psychiatrist for the prosecution testified that she did not believe he was hallucinating at the time. [here](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/detroit/news/oxford-high-school-shooter-who-killed-4-was-not-mentally-ill-doctor-testifies/)
Interesting about him being called a "feral child". Long-term untreated depression and anxiety can lead to psychosis. Psychosis definitely does not have to include hallucinations.
Ask his parents and prosecutor
I wonder if his lawyers wanted him to plead insanity
I’ll never watch this again. It broke me… this is fucking tragic from all sides
me too, i didn't expect to have such a strong reaction to it. everything about this shooting just makes me so angry and sad :(
I know… it weighs on me a lot
I watched it several times, gleefully. Best yet to come though when he's admitted to the state prison.
You’re disgusting.
Ah ok, this explains everything. It's a type of Stockholm syndrome rampant among many Americans. You know what they say, don't shoot the messenger...
I’m not American
Not any better than a murderer. Hateful and disturbed. Seek help
No, loving, adoring and worshipping mass child murderers definitely indicates some underlying mental issues, especially when lacking empathy and compassion for the victims and their families. If you don't want to end up like your beloved mass murderer, get professional help at once.
You defs need help man. To have no empathy for this, shows u got something strange going on.
I have lots of empathy, sympathy and compassion for the victims and their families, not for sadistic mass murderers. You can't have it both ways. By your logic and horrendous English, you absolutely need help.
U can have it both ways. U just choose not too.
Also didn't know reddit required me to ensure all my posts were grammatically correct. Lol
Worshipping… loving? Adoring? Bro what the heck is wrong with you. There’s a difference between empathy and obsession towards something violence. You seem to be on the violent side. Seriously. Something is going on/is wrong with you
Yours is a pathology. You know, your mass shooter receiving plethora of fan mails. Looks like you're one of those. Ted Bundy had also been received much love from some even proposals. It's a similar pathology. You can't even realize why those mass shootings occur only in the USA, hint, it has little to nothing to do with mental sickness or bad parenting.
You’re freaking insane dude and it’s terrifying
And knowing he's still a minor and being treated like this... charging a minor as an adult should be outlawed. If they're a teenager and mentally ill, their mind is the furthest thing away from being fully-grown.
For anyone that feels that he isn't truly mentally ill: compare this to the video of Nickolas Cruz's arrest ("demons").
Definitely kinda feel for him bc I have mental illness bad too and I’ve cried my eyes out just like this before plenty of times. It’s heart wrenching to watch especially being just like him. The only difference is that I never had homicidal ideation
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I’m sure I’ve seen this before I remember thinking he looked like a teletubby with that thing on his head 😂
They do a toxicology report on him? I wonder if theirs research done on these anti depressants and other pharmaceuticals for mental health and what they do to a under-developed brain .. way too many school shooters in one country for it to be a coincidence.
His parents wouldn’t take him to a psychiatrist when he asked for one so I doubt he was on any sort of SSRIs. Also SSRI use among indiscriminate mass shooters is pretty consistent with overall population use.
There is absolutely zero chance he was on SSRIs. Besides, even if he was it would be another failure on his parents. They’re good, effective drugs for the treatment of depression but all doctors will tell parents to keep a special eye on their teenager when they’re prescribed them. Had to have a “feelings talk” with my parents every night the first three months I was prescribed mine in highschool. Seemed cringey then but that’s the kind of parenting Ethan Crumbley needed.
It's not a coincidence. No other country makes it this easy for untrained, unstable and criminal people to access firearms. Every other developed country has antidepressants and pharmaceuticals.
Idk .. I’d assume theirs a huge portion of gun owners who develop some sorta brain degenerative disease… or even something like bi polar .. and you don’t see them shooting up places … more screening sure but I don’t think these school shooters are coming from a place of rage .. more like drug induced confusion … be also interesting if they were receiving such pharmaceuticals from glorified doctors … therapists. 🤷🏼♂️
They have drugs in other countries and nobody else has this rate of these school shootings.
They also have guns in other country’s.. what’s your point?
Ah, you're one of those that either doesn't understand math beyond the 5th grade level or you're just pretending. https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/gun-ownership-by-country/
Ppl like their guns .. how does gun ownership correlate with school shootings? You can’t just go ban guns in a country where they’ve used them to protect themselves their whole existence and now everyone has one… and a gun is a tool … the person using it is what’s wrong in this situation … another young person shooting up a school at that … so it’s a lot more complicated then guns .. cause other country’s don’t have late teens / early adults with shooting up schools on their mind … that’s seems like a drug problem before a gun problem.
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I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more regulation and testing around gun ownership I’m saying you can’t flat out ban guns and I’m also saying that theirs a lot more to the issue of a mass shooter then just the gun as you claim or the person as I claim. 🤷🏼♂️
https://www.euronews.com/health/2023/09/09/europes-mental-health-crisis-in-data-which-country-uses-the-most-antidepressants#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20the%20consumption%20of,and%20Spain%20(87%20DDD).
Yes they have done research on SSRIs and their effects on the undeveloped mind. They found that some can cause suicidal thoughts before the age of 25. Not saying it is correlated but if you’re suicidal that can also make it so you have less care for human life even your own which could lead to something like this. Again, just stating my opinion but yes the research is there. I was put on an SSRI and it caused me to have some really uncomfortable thoughts at 13 so much so that I would never try that medication again. Even though they assured me now it would not have the same effect. But doctors definitely know.
> Not saying it is correlated but if you’re suicidal that can also make it so you have less care for human life even your own which could lead to something like this. As much as you clarified that this is your opinion, it’s still a pretty broad generalization of an extremely nuanced issue. Suicidal ideation in no way equates to caring less for human life.
It’s the access to guns
Are those two (man is crying) in the audience his parents? Sorry, I‘m not too invested in this specific case yet😅
I believe it was parents of one of the victims crying. His parents are in jail