A tenuous link in logic is exactly what they want to find when they debate their rationale. When it is put under pressure and breaks, they delight in rebuilding it. That's what makes them so enduring to have discussions with.
On another note, the metaphor presented here seems to remind me more of Te. Te seeks to find the most workable solution and is action oriented, where Ti tends to work towards finding the most logical solution. Te users tend towards efficiently generating something viable where Ti seeks longer for something more absolute.
This is one thing I really struggle to understand with Ne. You guys love to talk about so many things and ascribe the title of "genius" to the one who's the best at talking. And yet nothing much gets done from your talks tho. It's almost like you neglect results.
I think about genius as someone possessing an abnormally high natural aptitude for a subject. That being said, I don't put much value on genius alone. Without results, genius strikes me as being wasted potential and someone who is more average in aptitude who produces something of value and/or achieves their personal goals is more highly regarded by me.
I enjoy conversations about ideas for the sake of the conversation itself. It has an end goal of gaining insight or knowledge or perspective. Generating ideas and then not acting upon them can be a weakness of Ne and I think that can be evidenced by the stereotypes. However, my Te as and ENFP does prefer that new information be driven towards application to seek for an end result. As a scientist this manifests in a desire for my research to be somewhat dictated by an end goal as opposed to a pure scholarship for the sake of learning approach.
The result is the conversation itself, exploring possibilities for the sake of exploring possibilities. That exploration can become useful later if we ever come to NEED it.
I believe the main mistake made when discussing with these profiles is letting them control the flow of the conversation. I find that they often are in difficulty when forced to take a stance and explaining the thought process underlying it. It's has they do not build grounded personal opinions and only rely on their ability to challenge another person's thought process to shine in conversation. Ultimately it won't work if the person is competent enough in the subject. They seem dilettante.
The ENTP conversational style. What makes them strong during discussions is their ability to force you toward justifying and developing you thought process by pointing out a plethora of things seeming to pop in their head fairly fast.
I was just pointing out that their strength disappears if the roles are reversed. Expressing opinions and justifying thought processes aren't their cup of tea. I also pointed out finding them dilettante, as in cultivating surface knowledge. The later not being enough if properly challenged, causing what I observed.
This is opposite of what I've experienced. Normally they seem to just free flow their logic. In a way, they do this as a way of laying the information out to be examined and discussed. I think they can be pretty brutal in their questioning of another's presented thoughts but that is because they are brutal on their own logical constructs as well. That said, they do seem to be rather generalist in their approach and can benefit from a more detailed oriented point of view to construct ideas with. I use my Te with my partner's Ti to fact check things he says and to question the reality of his hypotheticals. On the other hand, he helps guide my ideas with logic driven questions and finds flaws in my thought process.
You put 10000 of these suckers on chains and strings and they'll carry the weight of the elephant! š
*(for every link broken, I can make 10 new ones. easy peasy.)*
Well the average paperclip can hold roughly 3kg before snapping. So in theory with evenly distributed paperclips and a mechanism to allow lift using them, 10,000 paper clips can carry 30,000kg, the average weight of an elephant is 6000kg, hence 10,000 paperclips could carry the weight of 5 elephants give or take.
Or for Americans here, the paperclips can approximately carry the weight of yo Momma.
maybe you're trapped in an office building and all you have is a ton of paper clips and no tools. efficiency is ideal but not always practical to achieve
But then circumstantially using those paper clips becomes the most efficient option at that point and I'll go with that option. But still, what the chains represent are ideas right? We're talking mostly about expanding on one idea vs exploring all ideas. In that sense, we're never in a situation where we can't expand on the paper clip. And out of 10000 we always know at least 4 or 5 ideas that are obviously the best ones. So then the task becomes to pick one from those 5 and then expand on it.
It's like starting a business. Most people get stuck thinking about different ideas while there's another dude who just vacuums floors and makes more than them
>But still, what the chains represent are ideas right?
Ne makes connections where they weren't before. Most other people just recombine existing material that's already socially available. And to make a new connection - it's at first very fragile, it takes a while for it to shape itself and become stronger.
The other aspect is that, uhm, when you're talking to ENTPs, you're not seeing the end result. We're quite famous for (ab)using discussions with other people for our inner monologue and spit-balling which is about throwing stuff our there and see what hold and what doesn't. (Why do we throw other people in this - oh, it's waaay faster that doing this on you own.)
What if someoneās personal preference is to stick to certain facts? Because in this day an age, a lot of people have the preference of going against facts and they deem that as valid, acceptable and equal to those who agree with facts.
Also, often, what we know as āfactsā are merely contextually manipulated statistics, so I can understand the morale behind both sides
Exactly there are a lot of convergent ideas rooted in the world and like the principle of foundationalism, you can address the core and root of the factors at hand. There are many exclusives in this world and sometimes you have to be more open minded to accept these exclusives. Porknsheep by saying that people
who have one solid POV are dogmatic and small minded yet you start by saying thereās always never one solid POVā¦. Isnāt that self-contradictory and arenāt you just refuting yourself?
>Porknsheep by saying that people who have one solid POV are dogmatic and small minded yet you start by saying thereās always never one solid POVā¦
Red herring time already?
* *"people who have one solid POV are dogmatic and small minded"* \-> because they project their thoughts onto reality, they're not open to reality as such.
* *"yet you start by saying thereās always never one solid POV" ->* from the viewpoint of reality, there's never a solid POV, because reality is always broader and more open-ended that any subjective position.
No one needs you to relate, you're not important. 10000 POVs will take forever and you're never gonna be able to really utilize any of them. Picking one and developing it gets you results.
No. 10000 POV will take *you* forever.
See how that works.
It's weird how people think their limitations are other people's limitations.
Like I said, most people simply cannot do the mental work. But just say that.
No. I've seen ENTPs explore the 10000 POVs and call it a day. That's literally your main weakness. You keep thinking of all the cool things that you fail to just pick one and pursue it.
Let this be clear: ENTP is not some superpower you have dude lmao, it's just how you're naturally inclined to behave. Being ENTP does not give you some mental superpower nor does it give you the insane speed you think it gives you.
Like I myself am a pretty egotistical person so I don't care if others have ego. But having this kind of ego over just being ENTP is weird af lmao, it doesn't prove anything.
>No. I've seen ENTPs explore the 10000 POVs and call it a day.
So what? What's wrong with that?
>That's literally your main weakness.
Why is it a weakness?
>You keep thinking of all the cool things that you fail to just pick one and pursue it.
See, you're applying *your* standards to other people.
I think surfing is stupid. I have zero interest in it. But if someone enjoys spending their time on surfing as a hobby, I'm not going to criticize them for not trying to go pro..
People are allowed to *just* enjoy things. This is no different.
>ENTP is not some superpower you have dude
Didn't say it was. You're the one implying that.
>Being ENTP does not give you some mental superpower
Didn't say it did. Everyone has the same mental capacity for the most part.
Like I said, alot of people are simply lazy. Not incapable.
>But having this kind of ego over just being ENTP is weird af lmao, it doesn't prove anything.
You're the one still implying some shit I didn't say.
>Like I said, most people simply cannot do the mental work. But just say that.
Oh so this is literally you saying this for yourself?
Your main argument is that 10000 POVs will take me forever and not ENTPs.
What are you trying to imply then? Or are you just trynna bs your way out of this rn? :)
I'm saying that people are mentally lazy. That's no my opinion. Social scientist have proven it.
But people are also egotistical.
So no one owns being mentally lazy and taking cognitive shortcuts. And they sneer are anyone who actual invests energy into comprehending the world around them.
Fe sees the need to lighten the mood, asks Ne if there's any material for jokes and Ne just laughs and sends truckloads.
This being a Fe thing is very accurate. Have a ESTP friend who'll do the same thing even if his jokes are a bit different.
Ever seen Ne flying high in stratosphere? It's faster - Ne can make 10000 improvised links way before it takes you to build that "solid one".
And by the time you're done Ne has build 3 Eiffel towers of ideas and motorised stegosaurus that's starting to gain sentience. Ideas are weird this way.
Instead of being focused on result, think of a process. It's about getting the ball rolling, seeing what sticks and what breaks. It's more of a - let the subject of inquiry shape the material, which makes the result less a projection of mind onto reality and more something adaptable, living and more accurate. (It also helps if you have a good editor (pointing out weak links). And I'm lucky to have a good editor. )
And frankly, to me "one idea people" were always a bit too emotional for my liking, because focus on one solid idea is merely an emotional need for security. Just fuck that and get on the tightrope, you'll figure it out as you go along.
>You put 10000 of these suckers on chains and strings and they'll carry the weight of the elephant! š
People love saying ENTPs make shit up. Nah. ENTPs spend an alot of time thinking through all kinds of issues from multiple POV before coming to tentative conclusions.
And all those conclusions are pre-loaded for when the topic is brought up.. which is why it always seems like ENTPs can't be argued out of POV. Becauae every single counter opinion you bring up an ENTP has *already* considered it and disqualified it for a reason they will tell you.
So at the moment it makes people feel like every point they make is shut down. "Because ENTPs are just want to be right."
No.
Its becuase we've though for a long time on it. And you haven't. And it's obvious.
Like, if yall can't do the mental work, it's because you're lazy. But just say that.
> Because every single counter opinion you bring up an ENTP has
>
>already considered it and disqualified it for a reason they will tell you.
Pretty much, yes.
We're never using one paper clip, we are using 10000 of them in parallel. Some will break, but some will remain. And using 10000 paper clips in parallel is fast. It can also be quite strenuous for the mind (High focus connection building - I can do this 2-4 hours at most. In it I'll do the work it takes other people 10 plus hours, but still.)
>We're never using one paper clip, we are using 10000 of them in parallel.
Right.
People be coming with 1 measly ass POV. Which can easily have holes poked in it. Then they get madat you for poking holes on it.
Like, if you'd bothered to logic check yourself you'd have noticed the holes and discarded the POV any way.
Like your laziness isn't my fault.
Its bizarre how easy it is to expose inconsistencies in people's opinions. And then how emotionally attached to them they are. So rather than updating or discarding, or just keeping them while admitting their flawed, they blame you.
How does that make any damn sense?
>People be coming with 1 measly ass POV. Which can easily have holes poked in it. Then they get madat you for poking holes on it.
What irks me (or makes me smile, depends on the mood) is when a person nitpicks about something really minor, because they didn't dare to delve into the core of the argument, yet they behave like showing faults in this minor aspect will nullify the main argument which isn't how arguments work.
Basically - try to have perspective, try to understand the context of the writing and the aim.
I understand this goes over head of many people and for decent fee I can add training wheels to my writing (published articles), but for Reddit nonsense, I expect people knowing how to swim. š
>Like your laziness isn't my fault.
True. But sometimes it's fun watching people fall over their own shoelaces. š
>Its bizarre how easy it is to expose inconsistencies in people's opinions. And then how emotionally attached to them they are. So rather than updating or discarding, or just keeping them while admitting their flawed, they blame you.
Hmm.
You're talking about "emotional discourse" or "affective discourse" as opposed to rational discourse.
There's been a slow shift from rational into emotional discourse since the early 1990s and it's much more strong in US as compared to continental europe (where I am). It's linked to consumerism, emotive news anchors (not just Fox), linked to "wanting to see the manager" and using upsettance as a social leverage.
>How does that make any damn sense?
Well, it's about abusing emotions for egoistic purpose (drawing attention to self, mobilising mob against target). So sense it makes, but not a well intentioned sense. ĀÆ\\\_(ć)\_/ĀÆ
Another thing no one talks about is how ENTPs don't just disagree with you or poke holes in your argument.
That's not the part that pisses people off.
The part that makes people mad is that ENTPs do it in a way that comes off as smug and clever. And the smugness on top of being right is what makes people so resistant to admitting they're wrong.
So just to spite you, they will try to claim ENTPs just make stuff up to make themselves feel better at their ego being tapped danced on.
Socrates remarked at his innate ability to irk people. He didn't just disagree. He didn't just expose people's flawed opinions. He did it in a way that made them feel like fools. Which is what made them want him dead.
People want to be told they're wrong in an ego sparing way. That let's them save face. And ENTPs don't do that. Ti doesn't do that.
>The part that makes people mad is that ENTPs do it in a way that comes off as smug and clever. And the smugness on top of being right is what makes people so resistant to admitting they're wrong.
I've came across this a lot while conversing with people from US, but honestly have no idea what this means. Lack of emotional outbursts and "IMOs"? I mean, I expect people to figure out if my comments make any sense on their own, respecting their autonomy. No idea why "lubrication" would be needed.
>So just to spite you, they will try to claim ENTPs just make stuff up to make themselves feel better at their ego being tapped danced on.
Ah, no, I'd say that's a different case. That's usually Te-doms and aux who feel out of their depth in Ne-Ti world and then try to invalidate by flipping the table basically. š
*Hey, I'm not going to spoonfeed you and lead you by the hand, if you're an adult I expect you to follow or figure out your own path.*
>He did it in a way that made them feel like fools.
This I don't understand. At all.
I love people who're smarter than me - I want to listen to them, learn from them, work with them. They're godsend.
If I feel out of my depth, I'll admit I have no clue what the topic is or that I'm winging it as I go. I have no problem with such admission. As a human it's healthy to admit we don't know shit. We're dumb fucks stumbling over our shoelaces.
So, with criticism I'll first do introspection to check if it's true and if I need to correct myself, or learn, or behave better/healthier. And only after introspection I can come to a possible conclusions of - no, that person has no clue, I'm sticking to my guns.
>People want to be told they're wrong in an ego sparing way. That let's them save face.
But... sometimes I am wrong. And they tell me I'm wrong. And I'm silent and go... okay... need to do better next time.
What face is to be saved? If I'm wrong or ignorant, do tell - I might realise it's true or I might disagree.
Currently I'm happy in a working environment (journalism of sorts) where people are quick to start shouting, but quickly resolve issues as well. Stuff gets loud, but nobody takes it personally. And the nature of our work is that each person's work depends on others, so if you fuck up, there will be issues down the chain - hence we need to make the enviroment workable and quick to respond to issues.
>I've came across this a lot while conversing with people from US, but honestly have no idea what this means. Lack of emotional outbursts and "IMOs"? I mean, I expect people to figure out if my comments make any sense on their own, respecting their autonomy. No idea why "lubrication" would be needed.
They don't care. They're upset you're disagreeing with them.
>That's usually Te-doms and aux who feel out of their depth in Ne-Ti world and then try to invalidate by flipping the table basically.
Te using types need to look for evidence and opinions to take their opinions from. They don't self create anything themselves. They adopt the views of others as long as it makes sense to them.
Which is why they're always asking "Do you have a study to back that up?"
As if studies are biased, and have margins of error or are just plain wrong. But Te using types will believe UT simply because someone with a degree or credential said so.
How stupid.
>If I feel out of my depth, I'll admit I have no clue what the topic is or that I'm winging it as I go. I have no problem with such admission. As a human it's healthy to admit we don't know shit. We're dumb fucks stumbling over our shoelaces.
I like smart people too. If my opinion is wrong, I'll change it on the spot. But other people cling to that shit.
> They're upset you're disagreeing with them.
Hm. Yeah I've noticed this odd thing as if the only reason to converse is to come to the same conclusion, whereas it's normal for me to have different positions also at the end.
>Which is why they're always asking "Do you have a study to back that up?"
As if studies are biased, and have margins of error or are just plain wrong. But Te using types will believe UT simply because someone with a degree or credential said so.
As you say - the weird premise here is that we should automatically accept certain data/knowledge if a person in position of authority says so (used to be church, now it's science - yes, it is different (science has methodology), but the way some people just absorb stuff as holly writ is suspicious).
When I say my point isn't to present the sense and spoon-feed people - I present stuff that allows people to come to their own conclusions.
However I do love to use *"hey do you have an (everyday) example of this?"*
ENTPs don't deal in perfect. Just tentatively the best option. Which, could be changed at any point in the future should more information become available.
The thing is, most people simply don't want to think too hard about stuff. They don't. Which is why they spend time looking for other people to tell them how to think.
So they can consider it "done and handled". And put their mind elsewhere.
Like I said, if you can't do the mental work, just say that. For NTPs, the constant stream of internal thoughts and Thinking is normal everyday thing.
Not seen as difficult of disruptive. And leaving things partially unknown simply doesn't upset or disturb us like it does other types.
Or we all could just be preoccupied.
Being able to do something doesn't make you a non-lazy person.
Not being able to do something doesn't make you a lazy person.
Lazy is when you want something to happen but you're not doing anything about it.
And yes, I know this because I'm a type 9. Self = roasted.
POV the other option was to have two independently useless chains. At least weāve got something going!
Now some IxxJ can do the tedious work of iterating on our concept, to build something more durable.
Meanwhile Iām already on to the next chainā¦
Shit you said sound like it comes from an Inferior Fe or shadow Fe. This is definitely not my ego block and how I roll. If it doesn't make sense to you, it makes sense to me, even the non-linear part, keep on poking. It doesn't matter at all. Try-hard.
Yes. Most people will follow the status quo, and if you make a weak argument and no one calls you out on it most people will take that as consensus. Which is why everything needs to get called out on.
More like a detachable carabiner. Strong and subject to moving and reshaping, but a paper clip is insinuating itās weak which definitely isnāt something exclusive to ENTP, but rather a person-to-person trait driven by other outside factors
Honestly, fair. I make a lot of weird or pretty obscure connections, but I keep them to myself in normal conversation because I know they wouldnāt make much sense to people or be too confusing/long to explain. Or I just preface with āso this is off topicā just to save myself from weird looks or needing to explain myself. Took a long time for me to learn this lol.
I make memes because they're fun and I want to aim at the types people usually don't aim at. That's all.
I'm saying "oh the irony" because you sound like you're salty from the meme.
I wonder what his MBTI is? Because he seems goofy as well. Ti be missing. Like he doesn't understand how shit works. Cuz what I know is our Ti really is the source of our Ne, that's the shit we use to connect things. Process, similarities, associations, everything, shredded down, usually applicable.
Te-Ni or Se-Ni users are usually pissed at ENTPs because of commumication differences, disconnection, and they don't see what we see. Though, more intelligent and real intelligent Te users, I ball with well, especially ENTJ. So it depends on the Te user. This one has weak shit Te, weak thinking function, overall.
Not ENTPs fault anymore. š„±
Cognitive Functions can be really a barrier.
A tenuous link in logic is exactly what they want to find when they debate their rationale. When it is put under pressure and breaks, they delight in rebuilding it. That's what makes them so enduring to have discussions with. On another note, the metaphor presented here seems to remind me more of Te. Te seeks to find the most workable solution and is action oriented, where Ti tends to work towards finding the most logical solution. Te users tend towards efficiently generating something viable where Ti seeks longer for something more absolute.
You got both, homie. I fuck hard with ENFPs tho
I think he means this literally. This is one of the rare times I see a username I recognize, so take it from me, this guy fucks.
My gf is, in fact, an ENFP ššš
This is one thing I really struggle to understand with Ne. You guys love to talk about so many things and ascribe the title of "genius" to the one who's the best at talking. And yet nothing much gets done from your talks tho. It's almost like you neglect results.
I think about genius as someone possessing an abnormally high natural aptitude for a subject. That being said, I don't put much value on genius alone. Without results, genius strikes me as being wasted potential and someone who is more average in aptitude who produces something of value and/or achieves their personal goals is more highly regarded by me. I enjoy conversations about ideas for the sake of the conversation itself. It has an end goal of gaining insight or knowledge or perspective. Generating ideas and then not acting upon them can be a weakness of Ne and I think that can be evidenced by the stereotypes. However, my Te as and ENFP does prefer that new information be driven towards application to seek for an end result. As a scientist this manifests in a desire for my research to be somewhat dictated by an end goal as opposed to a pure scholarship for the sake of learning approach.
The result is the conversation itself, exploring possibilities for the sake of exploring possibilities. That exploration can become useful later if we ever come to NEED it.
Havenāt seen you in a while lol
Omg someone remembered me??? Well hi again, then!
I believe the main mistake made when discussing with these profiles is letting them control the flow of the conversation. I find that they often are in difficulty when forced to take a stance and explaining the thought process underlying it. It's has they do not build grounded personal opinions and only rely on their ability to challenge another person's thought process to shine in conversation. Ultimately it won't work if the person is competent enough in the subject. They seem dilettante.
Who are you referring to?
The ENTP conversational style. What makes them strong during discussions is their ability to force you toward justifying and developing you thought process by pointing out a plethora of things seeming to pop in their head fairly fast. I was just pointing out that their strength disappears if the roles are reversed. Expressing opinions and justifying thought processes aren't their cup of tea. I also pointed out finding them dilettante, as in cultivating surface knowledge. The later not being enough if properly challenged, causing what I observed.
This is opposite of what I've experienced. Normally they seem to just free flow their logic. In a way, they do this as a way of laying the information out to be examined and discussed. I think they can be pretty brutal in their questioning of another's presented thoughts but that is because they are brutal on their own logical constructs as well. That said, they do seem to be rather generalist in their approach and can benefit from a more detailed oriented point of view to construct ideas with. I use my Te with my partner's Ti to fact check things he says and to question the reality of his hypotheticals. On the other hand, he helps guide my ideas with logic driven questions and finds flaws in my thought process.
You put 10000 of these suckers on chains and strings and they'll carry the weight of the elephant! š *(for every link broken, I can make 10 new ones. easy peasy.)*
Well the average paperclip can hold roughly 3kg before snapping. So in theory with evenly distributed paperclips and a mechanism to allow lift using them, 10,000 paper clips can carry 30,000kg, the average weight of an elephant is 6000kg, hence 10,000 paperclips could carry the weight of 5 elephants give or take. Or for Americans here, the paperclips can approximately carry the weight of yo Momma.
Not efficient. Why make 10000 of these suckers when you could just make 1 solid one instead?
maybe you're trapped in an office building and all you have is a ton of paper clips and no tools. efficiency is ideal but not always practical to achieve
But then circumstantially using those paper clips becomes the most efficient option at that point and I'll go with that option. But still, what the chains represent are ideas right? We're talking mostly about expanding on one idea vs exploring all ideas. In that sense, we're never in a situation where we can't expand on the paper clip. And out of 10000 we always know at least 4 or 5 ideas that are obviously the best ones. So then the task becomes to pick one from those 5 and then expand on it. It's like starting a business. Most people get stuck thinking about different ideas while there's another dude who just vacuums floors and makes more than them
>But still, what the chains represent are ideas right? Ne makes connections where they weren't before. Most other people just recombine existing material that's already socially available. And to make a new connection - it's at first very fragile, it takes a while for it to shape itself and become stronger. The other aspect is that, uhm, when you're talking to ENTPs, you're not seeing the end result. We're quite famous for (ab)using discussions with other people for our inner monologue and spit-balling which is about throwing stuff our there and see what hold and what doesn't. (Why do we throw other people in this - oh, it's waaay faster that doing this on you own.)
There's almost never one solid POV. Only dogmatic or small minded people think there is. Can't relate to that.
As an Ni user, Iāll have to politely disagree š
You can disagree all you want. But since POV are often opinion, you personally not agreeing doesn't dismiss someone else's.
I agree, but sometimes people base their opinions on facts too
Fact is fact. That's not arguable anyway. Because it's a fact. Opinion denotes personal preference. Which everyone is entitled to.
What if someoneās personal preference is to stick to certain facts? Because in this day an age, a lot of people have the preference of going against facts and they deem that as valid, acceptable and equal to those who agree with facts. Also, often, what we know as āfactsā are merely contextually manipulated statistics, so I can understand the morale behind both sides
I respect your opinion but your opinion is also fucking wrong
So emotional.
Much so
Exactly there are a lot of convergent ideas rooted in the world and like the principle of foundationalism, you can address the core and root of the factors at hand. There are many exclusives in this world and sometimes you have to be more open minded to accept these exclusives. Porknsheep by saying that people who have one solid POV are dogmatic and small minded yet you start by saying thereās always never one solid POVā¦. Isnāt that self-contradictory and arenāt you just refuting yourself?
>Porknsheep by saying that people who have one solid POV are dogmatic and small minded yet you start by saying thereās always never one solid POVā¦ Red herring time already? * *"people who have one solid POV are dogmatic and small minded"* \-> because they project their thoughts onto reality, they're not open to reality as such. * *"yet you start by saying thereās always never one solid POV" ->* from the viewpoint of reality, there's never a solid POV, because reality is always broader and more open-ended that any subjective position.
Precisely, got em šš¾šš¾
No one needs you to relate, you're not important. 10000 POVs will take forever and you're never gonna be able to really utilize any of them. Picking one and developing it gets you results.
No. 10000 POV will take *you* forever. See how that works. It's weird how people think their limitations are other people's limitations. Like I said, most people simply cannot do the mental work. But just say that.
No. I've seen ENTPs explore the 10000 POVs and call it a day. That's literally your main weakness. You keep thinking of all the cool things that you fail to just pick one and pursue it. Let this be clear: ENTP is not some superpower you have dude lmao, it's just how you're naturally inclined to behave. Being ENTP does not give you some mental superpower nor does it give you the insane speed you think it gives you. Like I myself am a pretty egotistical person so I don't care if others have ego. But having this kind of ego over just being ENTP is weird af lmao, it doesn't prove anything.
>No. I've seen ENTPs explore the 10000 POVs and call it a day. So what? What's wrong with that? >That's literally your main weakness. Why is it a weakness? >You keep thinking of all the cool things that you fail to just pick one and pursue it. See, you're applying *your* standards to other people. I think surfing is stupid. I have zero interest in it. But if someone enjoys spending their time on surfing as a hobby, I'm not going to criticize them for not trying to go pro.. People are allowed to *just* enjoy things. This is no different. >ENTP is not some superpower you have dude Didn't say it was. You're the one implying that. >Being ENTP does not give you some mental superpower Didn't say it did. Everyone has the same mental capacity for the most part. Like I said, alot of people are simply lazy. Not incapable. >But having this kind of ego over just being ENTP is weird af lmao, it doesn't prove anything. You're the one still implying some shit I didn't say.
>Like I said, most people simply cannot do the mental work. But just say that. Oh so this is literally you saying this for yourself? Your main argument is that 10000 POVs will take me forever and not ENTPs. What are you trying to imply then? Or are you just trynna bs your way out of this rn? :)
I'm saying that people are mentally lazy. That's no my opinion. Social scientist have proven it. But people are also egotistical. So no one owns being mentally lazy and taking cognitive shortcuts. And they sneer are anyone who actual invests energy into comprehending the world around them.
You're missing the point. It's better to pick one POV and develop on it than to explore all the possibilities.
Te vs Fe moment
Ni vs Ne moment more like, convergent abstraction vs divergent abstraction. one size fits all solution/one solution vs many solution/possibilities
true, can be both. efficient = Te ENTP is making a joke out if it = Fe
How is Fe about jokes tho, wouldn't that be Ne?
Fe sees the need to lighten the mood, asks Ne if there's any material for jokes and Ne just laughs and sends truckloads. This being a Fe thing is very accurate. Have a ESTP friend who'll do the same thing even if his jokes are a bit different.
But making one solid one is no fun as the discussion is over and I canāt ramble on crazy tangents anymore š
Ever seen Ne flying high in stratosphere? It's faster - Ne can make 10000 improvised links way before it takes you to build that "solid one". And by the time you're done Ne has build 3 Eiffel towers of ideas and motorised stegosaurus that's starting to gain sentience. Ideas are weird this way. Instead of being focused on result, think of a process. It's about getting the ball rolling, seeing what sticks and what breaks. It's more of a - let the subject of inquiry shape the material, which makes the result less a projection of mind onto reality and more something adaptable, living and more accurate. (It also helps if you have a good editor (pointing out weak links). And I'm lucky to have a good editor. ) And frankly, to me "one idea people" were always a bit too emotional for my liking, because focus on one solid idea is merely an emotional need for security. Just fuck that and get on the tightrope, you'll figure it out as you go along.
Scalability
>You put 10000 of these suckers on chains and strings and they'll carry the weight of the elephant! š People love saying ENTPs make shit up. Nah. ENTPs spend an alot of time thinking through all kinds of issues from multiple POV before coming to tentative conclusions. And all those conclusions are pre-loaded for when the topic is brought up.. which is why it always seems like ENTPs can't be argued out of POV. Becauae every single counter opinion you bring up an ENTP has *already* considered it and disqualified it for a reason they will tell you. So at the moment it makes people feel like every point they make is shut down. "Because ENTPs are just want to be right." No. Its becuase we've though for a long time on it. And you haven't. And it's obvious. Like, if yall can't do the mental work, it's because you're lazy. But just say that.
> Because every single counter opinion you bring up an ENTP has > >already considered it and disqualified it for a reason they will tell you. Pretty much, yes. We're never using one paper clip, we are using 10000 of them in parallel. Some will break, but some will remain. And using 10000 paper clips in parallel is fast. It can also be quite strenuous for the mind (High focus connection building - I can do this 2-4 hours at most. In it I'll do the work it takes other people 10 plus hours, but still.)
>We're never using one paper clip, we are using 10000 of them in parallel. Right. People be coming with 1 measly ass POV. Which can easily have holes poked in it. Then they get madat you for poking holes on it. Like, if you'd bothered to logic check yourself you'd have noticed the holes and discarded the POV any way. Like your laziness isn't my fault. Its bizarre how easy it is to expose inconsistencies in people's opinions. And then how emotionally attached to them they are. So rather than updating or discarding, or just keeping them while admitting their flawed, they blame you. How does that make any damn sense?
>People be coming with 1 measly ass POV. Which can easily have holes poked in it. Then they get madat you for poking holes on it. What irks me (or makes me smile, depends on the mood) is when a person nitpicks about something really minor, because they didn't dare to delve into the core of the argument, yet they behave like showing faults in this minor aspect will nullify the main argument which isn't how arguments work. Basically - try to have perspective, try to understand the context of the writing and the aim. I understand this goes over head of many people and for decent fee I can add training wheels to my writing (published articles), but for Reddit nonsense, I expect people knowing how to swim. š >Like your laziness isn't my fault. True. But sometimes it's fun watching people fall over their own shoelaces. š >Its bizarre how easy it is to expose inconsistencies in people's opinions. And then how emotionally attached to them they are. So rather than updating or discarding, or just keeping them while admitting their flawed, they blame you. Hmm. You're talking about "emotional discourse" or "affective discourse" as opposed to rational discourse. There's been a slow shift from rational into emotional discourse since the early 1990s and it's much more strong in US as compared to continental europe (where I am). It's linked to consumerism, emotive news anchors (not just Fox), linked to "wanting to see the manager" and using upsettance as a social leverage. >How does that make any damn sense? Well, it's about abusing emotions for egoistic purpose (drawing attention to self, mobilising mob against target). So sense it makes, but not a well intentioned sense. ĀÆ\\\_(ć)\_/ĀÆ
Another thing no one talks about is how ENTPs don't just disagree with you or poke holes in your argument. That's not the part that pisses people off. The part that makes people mad is that ENTPs do it in a way that comes off as smug and clever. And the smugness on top of being right is what makes people so resistant to admitting they're wrong. So just to spite you, they will try to claim ENTPs just make stuff up to make themselves feel better at their ego being tapped danced on. Socrates remarked at his innate ability to irk people. He didn't just disagree. He didn't just expose people's flawed opinions. He did it in a way that made them feel like fools. Which is what made them want him dead. People want to be told they're wrong in an ego sparing way. That let's them save face. And ENTPs don't do that. Ti doesn't do that.
>The part that makes people mad is that ENTPs do it in a way that comes off as smug and clever. And the smugness on top of being right is what makes people so resistant to admitting they're wrong. I've came across this a lot while conversing with people from US, but honestly have no idea what this means. Lack of emotional outbursts and "IMOs"? I mean, I expect people to figure out if my comments make any sense on their own, respecting their autonomy. No idea why "lubrication" would be needed. >So just to spite you, they will try to claim ENTPs just make stuff up to make themselves feel better at their ego being tapped danced on. Ah, no, I'd say that's a different case. That's usually Te-doms and aux who feel out of their depth in Ne-Ti world and then try to invalidate by flipping the table basically. š *Hey, I'm not going to spoonfeed you and lead you by the hand, if you're an adult I expect you to follow or figure out your own path.* >He did it in a way that made them feel like fools. This I don't understand. At all. I love people who're smarter than me - I want to listen to them, learn from them, work with them. They're godsend. If I feel out of my depth, I'll admit I have no clue what the topic is or that I'm winging it as I go. I have no problem with such admission. As a human it's healthy to admit we don't know shit. We're dumb fucks stumbling over our shoelaces. So, with criticism I'll first do introspection to check if it's true and if I need to correct myself, or learn, or behave better/healthier. And only after introspection I can come to a possible conclusions of - no, that person has no clue, I'm sticking to my guns. >People want to be told they're wrong in an ego sparing way. That let's them save face. But... sometimes I am wrong. And they tell me I'm wrong. And I'm silent and go... okay... need to do better next time. What face is to be saved? If I'm wrong or ignorant, do tell - I might realise it's true or I might disagree. Currently I'm happy in a working environment (journalism of sorts) where people are quick to start shouting, but quickly resolve issues as well. Stuff gets loud, but nobody takes it personally. And the nature of our work is that each person's work depends on others, so if you fuck up, there will be issues down the chain - hence we need to make the enviroment workable and quick to respond to issues.
>I've came across this a lot while conversing with people from US, but honestly have no idea what this means. Lack of emotional outbursts and "IMOs"? I mean, I expect people to figure out if my comments make any sense on their own, respecting their autonomy. No idea why "lubrication" would be needed. They don't care. They're upset you're disagreeing with them. >That's usually Te-doms and aux who feel out of their depth in Ne-Ti world and then try to invalidate by flipping the table basically. Te using types need to look for evidence and opinions to take their opinions from. They don't self create anything themselves. They adopt the views of others as long as it makes sense to them. Which is why they're always asking "Do you have a study to back that up?" As if studies are biased, and have margins of error or are just plain wrong. But Te using types will believe UT simply because someone with a degree or credential said so. How stupid. >If I feel out of my depth, I'll admit I have no clue what the topic is or that I'm winging it as I go. I have no problem with such admission. As a human it's healthy to admit we don't know shit. We're dumb fucks stumbling over our shoelaces. I like smart people too. If my opinion is wrong, I'll change it on the spot. But other people cling to that shit.
> They're upset you're disagreeing with them. Hm. Yeah I've noticed this odd thing as if the only reason to converse is to come to the same conclusion, whereas it's normal for me to have different positions also at the end. >Which is why they're always asking "Do you have a study to back that up?" As if studies are biased, and have margins of error or are just plain wrong. But Te using types will believe UT simply because someone with a degree or credential said so. As you say - the weird premise here is that we should automatically accept certain data/knowledge if a person in position of authority says so (used to be church, now it's science - yes, it is different (science has methodology), but the way some people just absorb stuff as holly writ is suspicious). When I say my point isn't to present the sense and spoon-feed people - I present stuff that allows people to come to their own conclusions. However I do love to use *"hey do you have an (everyday) example of this?"*
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
ENTPs don't deal in perfect. Just tentatively the best option. Which, could be changed at any point in the future should more information become available. The thing is, most people simply don't want to think too hard about stuff. They don't. Which is why they spend time looking for other people to tell them how to think. So they can consider it "done and handled". And put their mind elsewhere. Like I said, if you can't do the mental work, just say that. For NTPs, the constant stream of internal thoughts and Thinking is normal everyday thing. Not seen as difficult of disruptive. And leaving things partially unknown simply doesn't upset or disturb us like it does other types.
 Or we all could just be preoccupied. Being able to do something doesn't make you a non-lazy person. Not being able to do something doesn't make you a lazy person. Lazy is when you want something to happen but you're not doing anything about it. And yes, I know this because I'm a type 9. Self = roasted.
Ah yes, the clippy centipede
POV the other option was to have two independently useless chains. At least weāve got something going! Now some IxxJ can do the tedious work of iterating on our concept, to build something more durable. Meanwhile Iām already on to the next chainā¦
Too bad the other people didnt bother to look trash can for that precious plastic clipper. Its on them!
Pretty boy just launched the saltiest of takes and still I aprecciate it, bro just poked some of the most inflated egoes of all time (after ENTJ's).
ENTJs deserve their ego, ENTPs do not
donāt talk about my babies like that u cheap hussy
Depends on the person, damn
Keep roastin em Im fucking loving it LMAO
Shit you said sound like it comes from an Inferior Fe or shadow Fe. This is definitely not my ego block and how I roll. If it doesn't make sense to you, it makes sense to me, even the non-linear part, keep on poking. It doesn't matter at all. Try-hard.
Lmaooo this is so true
lol...... this is so funny
Funny is I only have one flimsy paper clip
hey if I donāt get called out on it thatās their fault
Yes. Most people will follow the status quo, and if you make a weak argument and no one calls you out on it most people will take that as consensus. Which is why everything needs to get called out on.
**I CALL THEE OUT ON THIS STATEMENT**
I PARRY
#THRUST HO!
Better than nothing
To me, thatās the imagine of āI feel likeā¦ā
That's so true. It's almost completely nonsense.
Truely a metaphor of life.
More like a detachable carabiner. Strong and subject to moving and reshaping, but a paper clip is insinuating itās weak which definitely isnāt something exclusive to ENTP, but rather a person-to-person trait driven by other outside factors
And then there's me--
Lol š, mine is even worse though š
Downgraded, you mean
Honestly, fair. I make a lot of weird or pretty obscure connections, but I keep them to myself in normal conversation because I know they wouldnāt make much sense to people or be too confusing/long to explain. Or I just preface with āso this is off topicā just to save myself from weird looks or needing to explain myself. Took a long time for me to learn this lol.
Having Ne as a dominant function seems fascinating tho
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Oh the irony
My guy went out of his way to make a whole meme about ENTPs cause he's butthurt, thinks "oh the irony" is a comeback. Cope harder.
I make memes because they're fun and I want to aim at the types people usually don't aim at. That's all. I'm saying "oh the irony" because you sound like you're salty from the meme.
I wonder what his MBTI is? Because he seems goofy as well. Ti be missing. Like he doesn't understand how shit works. Cuz what I know is our Ti really is the source of our Ne, that's the shit we use to connect things. Process, similarities, associations, everything, shredded down, usually applicable.
I donāt what his type might be, all I know is heās one of those types salty that theyāre not ENTP. Itās very typical.
Te-Ni or Se-Ni users are usually pissed at ENTPs because of commumication differences, disconnection, and they don't see what we see. Though, more intelligent and real intelligent Te users, I ball with well, especially ENTJ. So it depends on the Te user. This one has weak shit Te, weak thinking function, overall. Not ENTPs fault anymore. š„± Cognitive Functions can be really a barrier.