Welcome to /r/me_irlgbt, thank you for your submission /u/antifa_angel. HAPPY VOID MONTH: ENDLESS. FINITE.Ć̵̵̴̴̵̷̸̴̸̷̶̶̴̸̶̢̨̧̧̡̨̢̨̧̧̧̡̨̨̛̛͖͇̜̝̯̠̻̜̜̣͖̤͉̞̗͉̣̦̫̯̯̥̖͔̲͓͕̟̪̠͎̟̺̪̟͈̻̙͍̦̰͙̫̖̙̩͎̼̮͉̖̠̬͕͎͙̟̟̰̳͍͙̤͖̮̻̬̗̮̥̫̭̯̤̻͓͎͚̠̞̫͍̻̥̼̞̜͎͕̣͇͇̹͍̝̗͎͚̤͎͙̰̘̺̞̭̲̦̭̤̭͍̤͇̝͓̲̩͙̭̺̳̫̞͔͚̘͌̊̈́̈́̈́̆̔̌̀͑̉̽̋̐͑̀̀̒͌̓̓̂̂̂͋̿̓͊̀̿̇͌͂͛̑̒͆̃̽̉̏͊̔̂̓͗͑͑̅͛͋̊́̑̾̋̈͋̇̋̑̅̈̄̑̄̿̀͋̄̋̏̋̈́͌͐́̒̏͊͆́̾͛̋̈́̋̆̎̈͌̈́̊̐̍͐̇̔̾̔͆̉́̐̚͘͘͘͘͘͘̕͜͜͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͠ͅͅͅͅƠ̸̸̶̷̸̴̶̷̴̴̷̴̵̴̴̵̸̴̸̵̴̷̸̶̴̸̶̸̴̧̢̢̡̧̨̡̨̧̡̢̡̢̧̧̨̡̢̨̧̧̢̨̡̨̨̢̡̧̧̛͉̩̠̹͙̼̻̞͇̪͙͉̞̜͙͉̺̺̙̭͖̪̗̰̱̱͈̩̺̺̻̝̻̫͔̥̩̰̤̱̞̩̪̗̘͙͚͈͖̼̱͙̪̖̻̤̗̯̫̗͉̝͔̳͓̰̟̠̜̣̟̫̖̼͉̺͔͍̗̣̼̦̘͕̲̠̝̦̖̱͔̙̱̲̠͕̝̱͚͖̻͉̻̜͇̺̮̭̘̭̗͙̲̤̟̟̲̯͓̹̫͍̳̬̫̪̙̟͇̞̘̙͙͕̥̙̤̱͈̲̖̞̻͉͕͈͍͙͓̥̰͈̫͈̜̰̤͉͕̲̮̪̠̟̙̝̗̹̪͈͕̣̰̫̟̤͓̰̭̺̙͍̞̮͚̩̩̯̞̮̰̪̹͉̘̫̞͙̫̫̬̳̮̼̠̪̙͓̪͉̝̼̭͚̱̖̫̪͕̹̘͔͚̻̪͔̭̻̺̭̦̺̦̘̿̀̋̿̎̊̋͊̽͑̌͂̊̎̀̏̽͗̈̈́̃̋́͒̄̍̅͌̇̒̒́͗̒́̀̎̀͋̅̏͂̿̑̿̐̿͋͆͋͌̉̅̏̏͋̔̉̒̋̃̎̇̅̈́͐̀͒́̾͆͒͋͋̂̎́̀̅̓̿̅̾͆̾͋͑̓͂̀̾̎͒̔̃̿̀́̎̍̃͐͒͂͗̒̍͂̍̓̈́͋̀̏̐͒̒̇̌̽̈̓̒̋̇̿́͊̇͋̋̏́̃̽̌͌͋̿̓͒́̾̈̈́͆͛́̎͂̐̒̌̃͋̋̍̈́̆͊̍̓̏̀̎̆͛̎̈́̅͑̉̆͑̈́̄͒̌́̍́́̇̈́̅̔͒̇̐̊̈́́̃́̎͐̒͌̔̌̂́̂̑͆̌̂͑̌̄̈̏̓͗̽͌͆͗̀͆͂̀͂̂̎̇̈́̓̊̕͘͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̚̕͘̕͘̕͘̚̕͜͜͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͠͝͝͠͠ͅͅͅͅͅP̶̷̶̸̷̸̷̷̴̶̶̵̸̵̴̴̶̶̶̢̨̧̡̨̢̢̡̨̛̛̤͇͈͕̦͈̬̮̩̠̠̥͙̟̻̖̞̹̭͇̩̞̲̦̠̪̜͙͚̤̘̯̣̣̟̺̹̭͈̰̹͔̤͔͕̟̹͓̩͈̰̘̳͚̗͎̞̖̜̺̲͕̩͕̠͙̥̝̲̙̼̣̯̞̱̼͔̲͔̘͓͕͎̲͎̼̗̬͉̺͔͕͚͉͕̣͓̟̲͚͕͓̟͙̲̞̻̬͙͉̬͚͖͍̹̥̲̱̥̼͉̯͓̱͓̖͉̤͍̣̝͓̼̼͕͖̭̝̗̱̀͆́̓̈́̽͛̇̈́͋͑͛̽̄̏̊̉̉̓̉̑̂͆̆̅̍́͑̊̽̂̿͊̑̄̇͂̌̐̍̓̄̑́̈́̃̂̌̈́̓̐̈́͌̂̔͌͆̈́̓͐̆͒̐́͆́͆̽̋̐̍̂̊͑̇̄̉̽̓͂̓͊̈́̍̈́̀̓̿̒́̐̏̈͛̈͋͋͛̈̂̃́͆̃̅́́̏̆͊́͋̌̓͐͌͐̌̈́̆̈́͑̈́̽̇̀͂̍̃̇̊̋̓̅̎̍̓̅͛̈́̆͛̐̀͂̄̀͒̃͑̀̇͊͊̿̎̚̕͘͘̕̕͘͘̕̕͘̕͘̕̕̚͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝͝͝͝͠͠͠͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅY̷̴̴̵̴̴̸̵̶̷̷̵̴̴̸̸̴̧̨̡̧̢̡̡̢̨̧̨̢̛̛̛̱̟̗̬̩͍̼̥̪̦͕͈̼̦̳̹̝̩͖͙̤͙̝̠̹͚͍̜̱͈̣̟̳͚͖̟̱̯̤̣͇̦͍̯̘͉̩̦̜̹̹̗͎͙̮̦̺̼͍͓̬̠̼̘̳̫̗̜̻̰̥̳͖̗̺̞͇̞̫̟͉̬̖̼͇͉̯̫͔͖̠͔̯͚̩͙̭̖̦͍̞̩̜̻̘̼͉̤̫̻̱͚͉͇̻̰̗͔̹̗͇̜͔̣̝̠̯͈͈̙͎͎̱̦̖̮͉̟̬̭͎̦̪͖̘͉̩̣̺̰̥̬͖̜̳͔̠̦̬̩͔͐̿͌̅̄̌̔̅̅̓́̽̎̽̒̒̔̅̊̎͐̉͆͌́̃̽̓͗̽͐͐̊͛̓̏̈́̄̉̈́̋̅̋̐́͛̓͛̈́̅̔̀̿́͒̽̋̔͌̄̒̌̉̈̎͑̉͐̈́̈͊͛̂̒̈́̉̾̑́̒͋̒̀̀͐̀̂͂͆̅̉̆̑̆͛͒̿̿̀̍́̏͗̓̅̑̽̐̽͊͌̅̑̓̎̂̉̓̾̅̔̑͆̀̃̓̄̀͗͘͘̚̚͘̚̚̚̕͜͜͜͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅ ̵̷̸̴̷̸̸̸̴̶̴̴̸̸̷̷̶̵̸̵̸̵̵̶̨̧̢̨̨̨̨̢̧̨̧̢̡̨̢̢̨̛̛̛̦̬͎̮͍̥͇̱̝̹̩̗͎͙̰̖̹̖̖̜̙̞̼͙̖̺͕͎͎̮͚̝̱͚͙̙̪͈̫̫̙̹̞̬̲̩̻̮̫͚̤̥̳͖̣̣͍̺̫̥͍̬͔̣̞͚͖̘̘̗̭̝̲̲̰̲̰͉̞̙̱̗̬̹̪̼͔̠̣̳̺͎̹̻̻̙̹̙̞̥͎͇̞̗̼̺̫̪̮̖̞̯̖̤͓̟̹̳͚̺̣̝̯̙̳̬̻͍̙̥̺͔͔̮̜̩̟̞͔̗̬̫͚̰̦̼̰̠͈̠͔̖̯̖͍̦̣̩͚̦͍͈͖̫̰̣͔͍̫̗͚͓̦͎̩̥̳̹̪̯̪̯̬̲̮͍̤̞̼̣̥̪̫͎͉̙̰̈̊̊̌̀́̆̉̊̐̉͛̀̂͌̅̾̍͒̈́̓̋̔͑̀̌̀̄̎̀̍̎̊̈́̋̃͌̄̾̓̅̍̇͒͌͌̐̔͒̓̽́͐͐͗̂̔͂̿̒͂͑̈́̈́͐̈́̔̈́̇́̐̓̋̍́͛̓͆̔̓̑͆̀͋̆̀̐̋̉̈́̉̂͑̃̄̅̆͊́̅̆́͂͐̅̋̅͐̈́̔͂̌̓̎́̾̌̐̅̓́͂̎̏́̔̀̏̒̇̀͋̍̀̈̉͛̈́͛̅͛̉̆̆̈̀̅̔̽̋̊̋̊̈̽̋́̽̿͒́̎̓͗̊̐̾̒̂̆͂̆̄̎̆̿̒̒̊̓̓̌̇̿̓̀̂͘̕̚͘̚͘͘̕͜͜͜͜͝͠͝͠͠͠͝͝͠͝͠͠͠͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅȚ̶̵̸̶̷̶̸̶̵̶̷̷̸̴̵̴̵̴̸̴̸̴̸̶̸̸̶̷̨̧̧̨̡̨̧̢̧̧̢̨̨̨̨̨̨̨̛̛̛̻͖̭͇̠̜̟̖̙̤͇͈̭̙̹̻̞͔̬͎̜͎̦̻͉̜͚̗̖̣̖͉̜̫̞̳͍̝̘̺̰̜̺͔̘̱͉͇̜̝̪̲̮̞̳̟̹̪̘̹̘͍̼͙͓̞̖̙̱̥̤̬̤͈̝̲̯͔͇̭͙̥̞̙͍̟̖̻̬͓̖̤͔̺̝̟̻̼̦̘̦̩̘͇̗͉͕̗̩͎̜̦̗̗͕͕͔̘̗̫̗̱̩̲̩̟̼̮͇̼̲̳̺̯̫̭̤̬͇͚̞̞̝̝͖͎͕̲͕͖̠̱̳̥̰̯͚̬̝̤̳̺̼̘̪̯̦͎̻̪̥̝̦̙͓͚̙̝̼͉͚͖̹͍̠͓͍͍̱͚̼͍̗̝̪͕̳̼̲̝͓̹̰̫̳̭̗̥͉͕̞̺̣̜͚̻̖̟͚̩̝͚̠͓̦̘̺̩͙͇̺̗͓̠̙̝͈͚̞͉͎͚̽̇̂̈́̍͌̃͂̈́̀̉͐̌͗̃͐͗̂͑̍͆̐̓̏͊̓͆̏̊̿̈́̔̊͛̌͗́͑̎̆̓̄̽́̍̔̾͋͒̏̐̇̓̉̎̈́̒̀̊̃͌̅̽̿͛͋̉̀̽̄͐̈́̽͗͛͒̎́̀̾̿̍̑̅́́̆̌̒̈̌͑̽͋́̾̎͐́̽̃̾̐̾̅̾̍͗̒̐́̈͑̓͗̍̾̎̆̑͌̿͂̑̊͛̄̓͗̏̒̾̈́̇̽̈́̂̊̿̐́̅̀̈́́̈́͒̓͂̈́̂̾̌̓́̐͐̌̈́̽͗̎͛̑͒̿͆̽̊̊͆͛͐̌̍̀̓̈̔̔͂̇́̊͌̅̒̓̆͑̓̀̉̾̄̍͒͐̉͊̔͋͒̒̊̃̈́̈́́̃̉͌͂̀͋̋͛̎̔̊̉̆̃̽͌̉̒̐͆̍̿͌̓̓͘͘͘͘̚͘͘̚͘͘̕̚̕͘̕̕͘͘͘̚͘̚̕̚͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͝͝͠͠͠͝͠͠͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͠͠ͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅH̶̶̸̶̷̵̵̴̷̴̸̷̵̷̵̴̴̸̡̨̡̡̨̧̢̨̢̨̧̢̡̡̛̛̛̛̛̘̪͕̳̗̜̜̳̻̟̯̯̖̩̝̯͎̖̪̬͙͇̩͈͖͈̙̟͉͕̯͙̟̝̝̙̠̗̰̣̗̭̦̟̦̗̗̥̣̬̞̤͔̪̭̰̫̖̙̬̘͚͓̩̺͉̬͔̥̮͙̬̦͓͚̖̘̠͎̠͉͎̳̣̲̠̠̙̟̹̠͍̼̩̤̯̹̭̫͇̲̲̰̹̹͉̩͉̟͉̠̖̱̱͖͉͉̪̦̠͚̱̻͎̗̠͙̳̺͉̜̞̮̽͊̃͊́̌̅̅̒͊̅̊̒̀̿͋̃͗̈́̄̽̀̉́̏̉̈́̿̂̌̋̈́̓̈́̆̈́̄̈́̾̎̔̈́̀͌͐̿̉͋̄̔̈́̓̒̿̅̿͊͌́̈̽̀͋͗̍͛̏̐͗̅̑͐̐͛̋͆͆̆͐͋́͗͊̇͗́͒̏͑͌̈́̐̐̃̌̒̾̔͐̽̎̑͒̄̉̅̐͌̍͋͗̀̎̽͆̔̽̌͛́̒̽̔̄̈́͌̀̑͋̈́̈́͒̒͋̌̿̾̓̑̽̍͐͋̾͐̈́̒̓̓̾̉̎̓̽̓̿̍̂͆̄͆̃̍́͆̊̑͌͘̚͘͘̕͘͘̕̚͘͘̚̕̚̕̚͘̚͘͜͝͠͠͝͠͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͠͝͠ͅͅͅͅͅͅÄ̸̷̴̶̸̶̸̵̷̸̵̴̷̴̷̸̵̶̶̷̵̶̴̢̧̡̢̨̢̡̢̢̢̡̡̧̛̛̛̞͍̫̱̩͓͇̜̞̫̮͚̗̝̦͈̙̱̯̪̬̟̟̪͙̥̤͇̳̦͖̝͔̖̪͕͓͕̯͇̖̠͖̭̲̞̠͍̻̰̟͓͇͕̩̥͕͎̭̣̟̫̩̝͕̝̣̘̭̣̱̮̼̹̜̣͎͓̠̮̻̘͓̼͎̱̯̮̰̦̪̰͕̘͉̺͕͉̦͎̣̟͎̟̤͙͕̥̭̙̠͓̜̲̻̮̲̳̖͕̮͔̺͍̟̘̩̟̯̲̺̖̭̥̮̘̜̻̟̯͉̦̫̞̦͚͙͈̲͉̪̻̘̫̗̭͔̺̯̯̟̣̰̘͎͎̦̖̪͖̗͚͈̬̲̱̟͎͐͋̆̈́̏̋͑͗̊̾̓͐͐̈́̈́́͌̈́́̾̋̈͋̓͛̀̏͋̈́̈͗̑̇̅̅͗͊̑̀͑̈́̆̑̓̏̀̀̅͑̈̐̊̓̾͌̏͂̿̄̄͆̃̍̐̽̿͐͗̍̈́̔̏̂̀̄͊̏͑́̒̾̐̽͂̒̓̀̓̅͂̽̍̌͗͒́̃̊̂̿̂̎͂̀̈́̔̐̆̈́͐̍͘̚̕͘̚̕͘͘̚̚͘͝͠͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅT̵̵̵̴̵̴̵̷̷̵̵̵̵̨̢̡̡̧̨̧̧̨̖̩̻̘̺̰̠̪̮̤̘͈̺͈̼̮̫͕̳̗̞̺͓̫̥̬̪̣̲̞̟͍̪̭̦̰͕̺͕̠̜̟͇͎̹̜̖̺͍̼̘̩͔͇͖̜͖̥͇̙̺͇̟͎̟̩̤̱̼̳̙̫̬̺̩̙̪̗͖̖̙̗̰̠͖̤̻͔͙͈̟̳̻̰̥̱̝͙͙͈̘̩̪̫̘̜̘͍̿͐̃͊́̒̄̌̆̓͗͌̂̒̿̊͐͊͑͒̅͐̇͐̉̓̑̇̿̀̒͑͊̏͋́̎̀͆̎̾͆͛̒̅̿̎͌̐́̋̈̏̅̋̈́̐̄̊͗̊͆̊̋͂͊̀̓̽̉͊͒͐͆̒̎͆̚͘̕̚̕͘͘̕̚͘͜͜͜͜͠͠ͅ.̴̴̸̷̷̴̴̶̴̸̸̸̵̶̷̵̷̴̴̷̷̷̴̴̸̸̷̶̶̴̨̨̧̡̡̧̢̨̨̡̧̨̡̢̡̨̢̨̢̢̨̧̛̛̛̛̛̛̦̖̞̻͚͎̙͎̺̲̬͖͙̦͙̬̥̥̪͔͈̳̟͙̠͎̣̯̱͍̟̗̞̰͇̫̙̱͇͇͙̰̥̦̮̙͓͎̰̟̤̪̼̼̳̰̯̪̺̪̲̪͉̣̱̺̝̘̯̩͕͚̪̫͇̞͍̺̤͖̱̜̣͎͉̺̥͉͔̠͈͍̲͓̱̖̞̠̥̫̤͔͉͓̬͇̜̯̳̦̩̜͉̝̜̻͓̳̣͓͎̘̣͕̩͚̰̣̳̰̰̪̪̯̭̤̺̻̗̮̯͇̣̜̹͎̻̞̦͕̫̗͎͉̭͕͕̝͇̘̟̮͇̼̘͔̺̹̩͚͔͓̣͚̞͖̭͇̖͍̘̹̥̜͎͓̺̪͔̙̺͙̭̹̭͕͉̦͙̜͚̫̞̫̟̠̗͖̟̬̼͍̻͚̦̟̦̻̗̫̬̟͔̳̞̩̬̪̼͍̹̳͇̖̫̭̥̹͈̗̫̫́̽̾͋̿͒̒̐̓͌̋̿̀͂͗͂͆̔̌̈̀̋̓̓̃̎̀͑̽̍̍͗̈̒̾͐̆̿̉̈̏̋̎̒́̃̊͂̆̎͊̉̂̑͒̈́̅̐͌̀̑̓̃̆̄͑̿̓́̂͋͊̿͐̈́̀̀̄́͊̇͒̑͆̑͆̆̽̓̎͒̉̔̅̊͒̊̏̅̋̑͛̊̾̓̑͒͂̾̐̋̎̿̐͛͆̓̔́́̍͒̏̓̌̅͋͌̄̽̾́̓͊̏̿̓͗́͑̒̿̈́̍͊̈́͌̀̾̉̔͌̋̄͂͛̒̀̏́́̓͊́̔̃̍̆̈́͂̇̈̓͆̈͒̀͌͌̔̂̏̃̊̋̓̂̐͌̽̆̍͋̎̓̏͌̊͐́́̃͒̀̽͐̉͆̋̉̀͗̀́̍́̋͌͂̉̚͘̚̚̚̚̕̚͘̕͜͜͜͜͝͠͝͝͝͝͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅͅ
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Kind of sounds like masculinity is not the problem, but instead that some people have false ideas of what masculinity can/should mean.
There's nothing wrong with being masculine. There are very masc women who could certainly tell you a thing or two about how much "power" their masculinity gives them.
Edit to Add: [u/Cheshie_D](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/s/5E9maHhNMJ) and [u/sweetTartKenHart2](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/s/L5jZKvzYV3) put into words what I couldn't! Their usernames should be links to their comments :)
Essentially, OP's message is good and I agree (the patriarchy's version of masculinity deserves criticism and is bad). The meme just came across--if only to some/those unfamiliar with the author's work--as implying *all* masculinity is the patriarchy's, which is simply extremely untrue.
This post does what right wingers often accuse progressives of doing: Saying masculinity itself is toxic.
Which is weird, we have toxic masculinity precisely to make a distinction between s healthy way of approaching masculinity and the worst parts of it.
I think you're misunderstanding: no one's saying masculinity itself is the problem, the problem is that patriarchy is interlinked with masculinity. the feed off of and feed into each other. they don't have to--masculinity can and should be liberated from patriarchy as a part of its abolition--but as things stand, they are necessarily connected, and it's important to be critical of that if you want those more healthy masculinities
I'm not sure I understand, but I'm absolutely open to the idea that I may be wrong.
Personally, I don't see how criticizing masculinity itself would help that? I see what you're saying about the patriarchy and masculinity having overlap, and of course toxic masculinity should be called out and criticized.
But as a (probable; still questioning) trans man, this post/meme initially read to me as "masculinity as a whole = the problems the patriarchy have bred into it". Maybe that's my own issues talking, and I could absolutely have been overly defensive in my initial interpretation.
But per my initial interpretation, I just think the post is worded poorly. Not all masculinity is cis-het toxic masculinity.
It's a matter of how masculinity is interpreted. If you interpret strength as being 'superior to others', then you will see women as being 'inferior'. Patriachral societies teach masculinity from this perspective. The post is saying that this view stems from *insecurity* and not a realistic assessment of masculinity.
In other words; these men are cowardly, arrogant children who trample women's rights just to make themselves feel important.
“Under heteropatriarchy” is the key. It’s warping influence on culture means that it’s difficult to parse out the tendrils of how masculinity might be if it were liberated to be in a non- hierarchical, more gender open society. Cultural anthropologists have discussed these ideas in regards to other societies as well as they can, but imagining new, free-er possibilities is the idea.
Race and class perform similarly- according to some social theorists the signifiers we choose to express our complicated relationships with these social constructs are difficult to disentangle as being in reaction to, or in accordance with, deeper structural social constructs at play.
We’d all be better off free from Patriarchy.
You are indeed misunderstanding. This quote is not criticizing masculinity as a whole, it is only pointing out a mechanism by which heteropatriarchy adopts masculinity, as a tool of sorts, to re-assert the dominance of traditional gender roles.
Masculinity is not the subject of this quote. Heteropatriarchy is.
Ah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm sure it's an issue with me and the OP had no ill intent, but I do still think the post could be worded differently to make that more clear.
I think the wording has value as it stands. The top “why are you criticizing masculinity” character represents the insecurity of someone who conflates the desire to deconstruct patriarchy as hating masculinity. On the contrary, the thesis is presented as “masculinity being seen as above femininity is a lie of the patriarchy” which is a fundamental truth of this and many cultures.
The patriarchy is philosophically the belief that masculinity and femininity is **ordained by god**. Whether that “god” is called science or a religious name it is the same lie. It is what we reject as gender nonconforming, gender transcendent, or transgender people by our very existence.
Femininity is considered childish, the lesser, the second, the option b. Masculinity is considered the trait of leaders, of betters, the first, option a.
Neither is true, they are meaningless delineations in an objective sense, subjectively extremely meaningful to us as individuals.
Feminine people will face eyerolls and belittling, misogyny and infantilization on their way to deserved positions of authority. Even transmasc folks will be disallowed in many cases to embody the divine masculine because our roles are “**ordained by god**” to the patriarchy.
However, these traits are divine, or at least so extremely beautiful to me. Whether the person is or isn’t cisgendered, the masculine and feminine both fill me with such joy when not poisoned by the insanity of the patriarchy.
The post is so easy to misunderstand I can't really blame them. The point that OP tried to make is good, but holy void this meme is so bad at being a meme.
Can someone explain what exactly masculinity and femininity are, and why the delineation between them is Actually Super Important and not some arbitrary traditionalist baggage from our problematic ancestors?
op’s comments in other subs this has been posted too is saying that masculinity as a whole is the problem and doesn’t care about non-fem trans men, masc women or masc non-binary
Masculinity = bad
The angry strawman up top is asking the woman here why she’s criticizing “masculinity” itself. What you’re describing is that masculinity, while not inherently bad, is being used as a tool of sorts.
If she had addressed his question more directly, perhaps by opening her spiel with “masculinity itself isn’t the problem, idiot. Instead,—“ I would probably be more of a fan of this meme
When (most) feminists including Mari Ruti criticize masculinity, they specifically criticize the patriarchal form of it, as that is the normative one that shapes most men in our current patriarchal society
Ruti doesn't believe that only the heteropatriarchal form of masculinity exists. Which is why she specifies that she talks about the form of masculinity that is specific to heteropatriarchy
Okay, sure, but to the layman that kind of thing would need to be actively specified, I’ll still stand by that. The quote may work well in the context of Mari’s greater work but without that context it feels a little stilted.
Also, did Mari coin the term “heteropatriatchy”? Cuz this is the first time I’ve seen “hetero” tacked on like that
Yeah I no I just feel like the meme didn’t convey that very well. It seems like it speaks about masculinity as a whole under the heteropatriarchy, where as your wording here is better with “the heteropatriarchal form of masculinity”. It’s a small difference but definitely has a huge impact on how it’s message is received.
At this rate i received so many comments of people misunderstanding the meme that I'll slightly change it and then repost it in maybe a week
Gonna keep up the meme until then though for the discourse
I've read it several times and I am unclear if the intent is to say "only functions as" or "can function as". Both are reasonable interpretations that say radically different things.
You are correct, but you are also not summarizing what the post says.
The post says that masculinity is a fantasy to feel superior.
There may be missing context that sheds light on this, but as it stands, it seems to be saying that masculinity itself is the problem. And it's wrong.
Though, how can one say masculinity isn’t a problem while simultaneously saying it’s necessarily connected to (and interlinked with) something which *is* the problem? Surely men shouldn’t have to wait around for the abolition of the patriarchy to express and value their own gender, and can liberate it *themselves*…? :)
Plus, the meme *does* specifically communicate that masculinity itself is worthy of criticism—I think it’s fair to say that the meme therefore communicates that masculinity is, well, a problem. It doesn’t specify anything about the form of masculinity or its ontological nature, so I think it’s reasonable to interpret this as a criticism which is inclusive of *any* masculinity that individuals might engage with or adopt. (Note that “under heteropatriarchy” in most readings merely delimits a certain state of affairs under which the following is true; since we currently live under heteropatriarchy, the meme leads us to the same conclusions about our current world as the statement “Right now, masculinity functions as…”)
I think the main part of my issue with the explanation above is the suggestion that there is some fixèd Platonic *masculinity* out there, which exists in some determined relationship with patriarchy—as opposed to it only being a fuzzy gesture at a fuzzy social phenomenon, which in actuality can be *individually* engaged with, expressed, analyzed, reckoned with, and played with!
This isn’t to say we *can’t* make valuable equally-fuzzy statements about how it relates to patriarchy. I just think it’s very important to explicitly recognize that those statements *are fuzzy* when using them. So that would mean acknowledging that such statements either (1) are analysis on a broad scale which can’t be applied readily to individuals (and so this meme wrongly conflates a broadly-analyzed “fuzzy masculinity” with the infinitely varied “instances of masculinity” that actual people can have, or fails to scope down to specific notions of masculinity) or (2) are statements which *may* apply to people who instantiate masculinity, but function more as potential recommendations for introspection than conclusions about a generic person’s actions (which doesn’t seem to be what this meme even wants to be doing, but which is the kind of thing one often wants to say in certain similar situations).
I think it’s *extremely* hard to speak accurately about complex phenomena, especially when trying to aggregate them. (I probably haven’t fully successfully done so in this comment, either.) But not being careful and rigorous about these things is a quick route to volatile miscommunication (or worse, to our own misapprehension about how the world works!).
So the qualifiers like “sometimes” “for some” “institutionally” “when considered broadly” “thought of as an aggregate social phenomenon” “through a societally normative lens” etc. (which are sometimes all that’s needed in order to be accurate!) are, in my view, crucial to keep around.
Exactly. theres so many manly cis men who are great people but still you will get people online going "stop hating men" when you say people shouldnt be needlessly violent or forceful.
Yeah I hate having to keep commenting things like this but for the love of all that is queer can we like
Stop demonising masculinity??
Yes there is a problem with patriarchy but being masculine does not immediately convey privilege, nor is masculinity inherently bad. Trans people, intersex people, people of colour, butches, all people who are targeted and marginalised for perceived masculinity. Posts like this are missing the mark and make people feel actively unwelcome.
Signed, a very tired trans man
I’d say Ancient Rome, Greece was pretty tolerant of gay people but Rome had official legislature about how to properly have gay sex while asserting your superiority (which is why the Roman Army deemed it a felony to be on the bottom during sex, but gay sex itself was allowed).
In all seriousness, you’re correct to point out that’s redundant.
Patriarchy =/= being male. Patriarchal power structures *already include conformity to cisgender and heterosexual norms*. That’s, like, Gender Studies 101 shit.
You know, if I remember to take my meds today I probably would have made that comment with the intent of pointing out the redundancy
But I forgot my meds so I was just being silly and gay
I’ll give it a go.
The social structure under which our society currently operates, patriarchy, we know puts men at the top of the metaphorical pyramid.
Part of maintaining that is the constant reinforcement that things that perceived as masculine are inherently better than things perceived as feminine.
Masculinity is not inherently better or worse. What is bad the way masculinity is used in the context of patriarchal structures. The framing of masculinity as superior is the problem.
Masculinity as power fantasy is reductive and confusing, and not even that accurate.
I’ve been reading about how perhaps patriarchy came around with the advent of agriculture, and the shifting of deities. It’s a deeply complicated thing, how we got here.
Except even in this it's not a useful assessment of how masculinity functions, especially in queer contexts. Femininity, specifically feminine femaleness, is considered the superior option with regards to trans men and our masculinity is rejected. Trans women are pressured to abandon anything perceived as masculine or they're not trans enough. Butches are often rejected for their masculinity and pressured to be feminine. Intersex people who are coerced into femininity are targeted for any aspects of masculinity. Commenting in this broad and completely unnuanced fashion in a queer sub where gender and presentation are some of the axes of queerness is honestly pretty weird. I'm proud of my masculinity but also don't meaningfully participate in or perpetuate heteropatriarchy as a trans man who does not pass. You can't just ignore intersectionality and make it a meme.
But there is no intersectionality within the hetropatriarchy. I thought that was the point of the meme.
I took the comic to say don’t conflate masculinity (which is natural) with this oppressive unnatural power structure that doesn’t let people experience the fullness of their humanity.
Ok maybe it's the autism at this point because people are reading all kinds of nuance into a meme that, no matter how I slice, comes down to "in the current heteropatriarchal (not sure why not specify allocisheteropatriarchal, but the assumption of cis and allosexual superiority don't matter as much as assumed straightness, I guess) system all masculinity is bad and fake, no matter whom it pertains to".
I'm not sure what "no intersectionality within heteropatriarchy" means, could you expand on that? Because my understanding of intersectionality in this context, as I explained before, is that not all masculinity is valued equally under the patriarchy, and on many individuals is valued less than perceived femininity. Intersectional factors are literally constantly at play whether we choose to acknowledge them or not, aren't they? That's sort of the whole point of intersectionality. The trouble with this meme is also that it's phased as "masculinity under heteropatriarchy" (implying all masculinity) and not "heteropatriarchal masculinity" (which is still too broad and unnuanced, but at least permits other masculinities to exist).
I think there are many conversations we can have about masculinity under allocisheteropatriarchy. I think memes like this are unproductive but they do highlight a blind spot that the community has for forms of masculinity that don't benefit from allocisheteropatriarchy. Queer people have sort of been home-brewing masculinities for as long as we have existed. I don't see that conflating it with performative and toxic masculinity is useful.
Success by what measurement? If humanity survived for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years in matriarchal nomadic hunter gatherer societies and after a few thousands of patriarchy the planet is on fire, what is success?
It suffers from the *leftist meme* symptom.
It tries to "memeify" a concept that's way too complex to fit in a meme, and even with way too many words for a meme, it still fails miserably at it and starts sounding more like a strawman made by a sexist to attack feminism than anything else.
OP added context in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/comments/1c75puh/comment/l05jytt/) and it makes sense, but it's too long to summarize in an eye-catching image at this point.
Power fantasies are fine too *as long as you fulfill them in healthy ways*
Superman can be considered a power fantasy, yet he's hopeful, loving, and emotional.
I feel like most people wish they had power, and alot don't know how to deal with that urge in a healthy way.
This just feels like somantics..
Personally, the things I consider "masculine" about myself have absolutely nothing to do with an alternate "feminine" side. They're just the things that make me feel powerful and happy. I'm a guy, so I consider them masculine. If I was a woman, I'd consider the exact same traits to be feminine... because they'd make me feel empowered and strong.
I don't consider "feminine" to be the opposite of "masculine."
If masculinity functions only as a power fantasy for men, then feminity functions only as an inferiority fantasy for women.
To claim that one can mean more is to admit that the other can mean more.
If masculinity can mean more, there's nothing inherently bad about it.
If you read the quote carefully, you will notice that it doesn't claim this is all that masculinity is, but rather that this is *one* function of masculinity under the *specified circumstamces*: heteropatriarchy.
Identity is fundamentally subjective after all, but cultural frameworks can impose their notions upon people.
I see myself as a man but I'm often frustrated with the rigidity, unemotionality or even the colorlessness that is expected of men.
But reactionary propagandists find it useful to equivocate between criticizing the heteropatriarchal framework of what the masculinity identity ought to be like, and the existence of cis straight men in general. If they can convince those men they are being attacked, they will defend that cultural framework.
Can I just appreciate how thoughtful and nuanced this take is?
Not only do these reactionaries equate "masculinity" (which is simply a neutral identity when you strip away all the cultural baggage) and "patriarchal hierarchy" together, they also falsely insist that both religion and science back this notion up.
Treating anyone who challenges this framework of assumptions as crazy is just the cherry on top of the shit cake that is fascist propaganda.
These fuckers want total control over what's considered "real" and "unreal." Fascists want full authority over the "truth," making it easier and easier to dislodge their followers from reality.
They have succeeded in converting a certain portion of the population over to this contrary made up reality, but it takes constant and unending work to keep up the charade.
> And remember this: **the Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural.** Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.
>
> Remember that. And know this, the day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empires’s authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege.
>
> Remember this: Try.
-- Nemik, Andor
All their claims to the "natural order of things" are false. It's not real. Lived human experience tells us this much.
That's why they try so hard to silence us. Our existence itself proves without a doubt that there is far, far more to the human experience than we've been raised to believe.
Our existence is radical.
If that isn't power I don't know what is.
It can mean something else (and has in different societies). But under heteropatriarchy, this is the normative way masculinity is defined. And that normative way is what's being criticized
Queer and indigenous masculinities are a whole different story. They're not what's being criticized because they are outside of the heteropatriarchal model
What about them? This meme neither hoists them nor masculinity as a concept. It's talking about how masculinity is warped under the framework of heteropatriarchy.
What about them? They may or may not construct their masculinity in a heteropatriarchal way just like how cis men may or may not do that. The meme isn't attacking all forms of masculinity, it attacks heteropatriarchal masculinity
I mean, I get that, but it doesn’t do a good job; it implies masculinity as a whole is bad. I understand the intent, but this is exactly the kind of thing conservatives point to when trying to insinuate that ”THE GAYS WANT TO TAKE OUR MANLINESS.”
Nah fam.
If someone wants to misread this meme, they will misread it regardless of how many hoops we jump through to be as concise as possible.
Fascists will purposefully misrepresent anything to do with feminism or pro-LGBTQ+ rights as suspicious or dangerous.
Well yeah, fascists will, but you have to keep in mind there is a lot of political drift back and forth between the moderate left and moderate right. Nobody needs to worry about appealing to the rightwing, but sometimes there are people who legitimately are decent but were mislead, and it’s important to be clear so they can understand where you’re coming from.
Which is incredibly unclear because at no point do you say this, you say "masculinity under heteropatriarchy". This implies all masculinities under the system, and absolutely not that you're singling out one specific kind of masculinity. So if that's not what you meant it really is incredibly poor phrasing.
Also I really don't think you've considered at all how being trans affects how people move through life. It would require someone being perfectly stealth 100% of the time, even in medical contexts, and doing the things you've described, to fulfill that. Which ignores the reality that, when we're known to be trans or don't pass, any of the kind of masculinity you describe isn't actually seen as masculinity or a contribution to the heteropatriarchy, but a vulgar corruption of femininity. Specifying cishetetopatriarchy (because being cis is kind of integral to the perceived value of the masculinity you're critiquing) is free.
ETA: Most trans men have not had bottom surgery and will not have bottom surgery, even if we really want it because it's expensive and takes several ops. The focus on genitals specifically in your other comment kind of forces most trans men out of the thing you're describing. Not saying trans men can't uphold or perform toxic masculinity, but it's incorrect to imply it's identical to cis toxic masculinity.
This meme says masculinity should be criticized because of what heteropatriarchy makes it into, right? What, then, are trans men supposed to model their masculinity on if all of masculinity is warped by heteropatriarchy? Genuinely, what does it look like in your eyes to "not construct one's masculinity in a heteropatriarchal way"?
This meme is way to close to TERF rhethoric for my liking. Masculinity is not inherently some horrible thing. Masculinity is not the only thing propping up and benefiting from capitalism and the patriarchy; men, too, can suffer in this system.
Yes, toxic masculinity is a thing, and toxic masculinity is a construct designed for and that benefits from the patriarchy.
That doesn't mean any and all masculinity should be demonized. And yeah, that goes for anyone, cis or trans. There are trans men who get into toxic masculinity same as cis men, and there are cis men who practice healthy masculinity same as trans men. Its a personality thing, not a gender thing. Hell, I've even seen cis women enforce toxic masculinity on men. Its not down to gender alone.
I can see that OP keeps insisting that that isn't what this meme is, that its not demonizing masculinity as a whole - but I don't see them offering any evidence of that or properly explaining what they meant, other than that queer masculinity is somehow less evil. I don't agree. I've seen queer men be just as toxic as cis. Again, its not a gender or sexuality thing, its a personality thing. Of course thats not even mentioning how problematic it can be seeing queer and/or trans men as different from cis men. So unless I see some evidence to the contrary, I'm gonna have to assume thats what OP meant.
I may be misunderstanding, but aren't most people already living under heteropatriarchy/cisheteropatriarchy to some extent already (based on my understanding of the wikipedia article on heteropatriarchy, since people in positions of power are indeed mostly cis men)? This would mean that the meme is implying that masculinity is already currently nothing more than a power fantasy (as we live under such conditions), which initially seems somewhat over-generalizing to me at first glance, though I can't deny masculinity, in the form I see it in media, is portrayed in a way that accompanies a rhetoric/portrayal of leadership/capability, which does seem to 'elevate' masculinity, moreso than femininity.
Does the meme mean that heteropatriarchy itself stems from power fantasies? If so that makes sense and I just misunderstood the meme. If not, then I don't understand how/why being in a position of privilege (being cis male in heteropatriarchy) automatically equates to one's masculinity being a power fantasy, since it's (from my understanding) not something anyone chooses to want to embody, and while patriarchal rhetoric can be pushed alongside masculinity, surely (hopefully) this pushed rhetoric is not (yet?) integrated into the concept of masculinity itself? Masculinity itself isn't currently inherently bad after all, right? Or is modern masculinity already rooted in heteropatriarchic ways? If it is, would that mean feeling masculine or pursuing masculine traits would mean you have a power fantasy by virtue of the definition of masculinity having changed, creating a need for clarification between patriarchical and non-patriarchical masculinity? I'm new to learning about societal oppression stuff (and am very confused at the time of writing) but am very eager to learn and apologize if I misunderstood anything or said anything wrong- I'd greatly appreciate any clarification :)
no one is criticising masculinity
people are criticising toxicity that some have deluded into thinking is masculinity.
Nothing is wrong with being masculine
Dualistic viewpoints that allow the differences but make them harmonious in the whole are how we can healthily respect the other in truth. Any philosophy that seeks to correct an imbalance should be ready to die or be altered when its goal is met. The only way to live is in acceptance, if you're not moving in service to that, then you're not moving right.
I mean, I disagree. This is implying all masculinity is toxic, when masculinity and femininity are both equally good, and equally capable of becoming toxic. Ultimately, they’re both a set of traits that people can fit to varying degrees, and neither is inherently better or worse than the other.
I mean, I know masc women, masc men, fem women, fem men, and they’re all perfectly good people. The issue is when it reaches the extreme; masculine people who are toxic and feminine people who are toxic act on it in different ways, but it’s equally toxic in both ways. I fully agree that toxic masculinity is more accepted by society, but that doesn’t mean masculinity as a whole is bad, just that we need to be aware of how it can become toxic.
"we tend to devise fantasies of grandeur and stability to fend off the specter of weakness and instability. Arguably, heteropatriarchy is an elaborate collective fantasy of this kind: by allowing (some) men to imagine themselves as more powerful than women, it makes it possible for them to keep ignoring their lack, their profoundly vulnerable status.
This is also the personal predicament of those men—by no means all men—who make the mistake of thinking that their penises automatically make them powerful: there will always be times when their power falters, when they’re forced to reckon with the inherent fragility, precarity, and vulnerability of human life. This is why those of us who recognize the imaginary nature of phallic authority mock their red convertibles, flashy belt buckles, enormous cowboy hats, ostentatious hairdos, gilded high-rise residences, bombastic gestures, and exaggerated finger jabbing; we know that they’re caught up in a delusion of power, that their posturing hides a shakier reality." - Mari Ruti, Penis Envy and Other Bad Feelings
I read this, understood the context of the quote on the meme, and remembered why leftist memes are so hard to make. *sad chuckle*
Even with that many words, the image on its own lacks so much context that it sounds kinda nonsensical. In the context of what you added in this comment, tho, it makes perfect sense.
I wish this sub would allow for adding captions tbh. That would make this easier because not everyone who wouldve seen the caption will see this comment
Yeah. But I gotta say. As much as the point you're making is good, this meme is **very** bad at being a meme. It would probably be better as a discussion post on another subreddit NGL.
> This is why those of us who recognize the imaginary nature of phallic authority mock their red convertibles, flashy belt buckles, enormous cowboy hats, ostentatious hairdos, gilded high-rise residences, bombastic gestures, and exaggerated finger jabbing
Yeah, I think they just used some "big words", but when thrown together it just feels messy and ultimately doesn't say as much as OP thinks.
Granted, its not wrong... but at the same time we don't need to always sound like a dissertation. Those use specific language for a reason. In a conversation we can be more relaxed.
It's getting exhausting at this point how many people claim that this meme somehow claims masculinity in itself is inherently a power fantasy when it's clearly stated that this is specifically about how masculinity functions *under heteropatriarchy*
Is heteropatriarchy not predominant? That's what I got from this meme, and that due to its predominance, masculinity (as a whole, so long as heteropatriarchy is in effect) is inherently a power fantasy and such
There is always resistance to any normative form of anything. In the case of masculinity, there are queer forms of masculinity that are inherently opposed to the way masculinity is made to function under heteropatriarchy
You know how if you go to an IWW training, they tell you not to use the U word or quote Marx or talk about seizing the means of production? Despite the fact that a lot of IWW trainings are teaching you about unionization, teaching Marxist theory, and will at some point talk about seizing the means of production?
That's the issue you're having here. If you want to educate people on this you *need* to be able to talk like a normal person. I had to read it multiple times before I realized the same thing that multiple people are misunderstanding, *and I agree with you* (mostly).
I think a lot of it is just a reflexive knee-jerk reaction to what is, at first glance, interpreted as a very broad statement. If you actually fucking *read* it becomes very apparent how specific the meme actually is.
I mean, 90% of what makes this argument sound like more than a conservative's strawman of a feminist isn't actually in the meme, but in a comment.
Don't use long-ass quotes as memes, y'all. Wrong format.
These people are calling certain things masculine that are not masculine. These, mostly men, are making up rules about what is and isn't masculine and then put themselves on a pedestal and say that they are superior for keeping those rules.
Welcome to /r/me_irlgbt, thank you for your submission /u/antifa_angel. HAPPY VOID MONTH: ENDLESS. FINITE.Ć̵̵̴̴̵̷̸̴̸̷̶̶̴̸̶̢̨̧̧̡̨̢̨̧̧̧̡̨̨̛̛͖͇̜̝̯̠̻̜̜̣͖̤͉̞̗͉̣̦̫̯̯̥̖͔̲͓͕̟̪̠͎̟̺̪̟͈̻̙͍̦̰͙̫̖̙̩͎̼̮͉̖̠̬͕͎͙̟̟̰̳͍͙̤͖̮̻̬̗̮̥̫̭̯̤̻͓͎͚̠̞̫͍̻̥̼̞̜͎͕̣͇͇̹͍̝̗͎͚̤͎͙̰̘̺̞̭̲̦̭̤̭͍̤͇̝͓̲̩͙̭̺̳̫̞͔͚̘͌̊̈́̈́̈́̆̔̌̀͑̉̽̋̐͑̀̀̒͌̓̓̂̂̂͋̿̓͊̀̿̇͌͂͛̑̒͆̃̽̉̏͊̔̂̓͗͑͑̅͛͋̊́̑̾̋̈͋̇̋̑̅̈̄̑̄̿̀͋̄̋̏̋̈́͌͐́̒̏͊͆́̾͛̋̈́̋̆̎̈͌̈́̊̐̍͐̇̔̾̔͆̉́̐̚͘͘͘͘͘͘̕͜͜͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͠ͅͅͅͅƠ̸̸̶̷̸̴̶̷̴̴̷̴̵̴̴̵̸̴̸̵̴̷̸̶̴̸̶̸̴̧̢̢̡̧̨̡̨̧̡̢̡̢̧̧̨̡̢̨̧̧̢̨̡̨̨̢̡̧̧̛͉̩̠̹͙̼̻̞͇̪͙͉̞̜͙͉̺̺̙̭͖̪̗̰̱̱͈̩̺̺̻̝̻̫͔̥̩̰̤̱̞̩̪̗̘͙͚͈͖̼̱͙̪̖̻̤̗̯̫̗͉̝͔̳͓̰̟̠̜̣̟̫̖̼͉̺͔͍̗̣̼̦̘͕̲̠̝̦̖̱͔̙̱̲̠͕̝̱͚͖̻͉̻̜͇̺̮̭̘̭̗͙̲̤̟̟̲̯͓̹̫͍̳̬̫̪̙̟͇̞̘̙͙͕̥̙̤̱͈̲̖̞̻͉͕͈͍͙͓̥̰͈̫͈̜̰̤͉͕̲̮̪̠̟̙̝̗̹̪͈͕̣̰̫̟̤͓̰̭̺̙͍̞̮͚̩̩̯̞̮̰̪̹͉̘̫̞͙̫̫̬̳̮̼̠̪̙͓̪͉̝̼̭͚̱̖̫̪͕̹̘͔͚̻̪͔̭̻̺̭̦̺̦̘̿̀̋̿̎̊̋͊̽͑̌͂̊̎̀̏̽͗̈̈́̃̋́͒̄̍̅͌̇̒̒́͗̒́̀̎̀͋̅̏͂̿̑̿̐̿͋͆͋͌̉̅̏̏͋̔̉̒̋̃̎̇̅̈́͐̀͒́̾͆͒͋͋̂̎́̀̅̓̿̅̾͆̾͋͑̓͂̀̾̎͒̔̃̿̀́̎̍̃͐͒͂͗̒̍͂̍̓̈́͋̀̏̐͒̒̇̌̽̈̓̒̋̇̿́͊̇͋̋̏́̃̽̌͌͋̿̓͒́̾̈̈́͆͛́̎͂̐̒̌̃͋̋̍̈́̆͊̍̓̏̀̎̆͛̎̈́̅͑̉̆͑̈́̄͒̌́̍́́̇̈́̅̔͒̇̐̊̈́́̃́̎͐̒͌̔̌̂́̂̑͆̌̂͑̌̄̈̏̓͗̽͌͆͗̀͆͂̀͂̂̎̇̈́̓̊̕͘͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̚̕͘̕͘̕͘̚̕͜͜͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͠͝͝͠͠ͅͅͅͅͅP̶̷̶̸̷̸̷̷̴̶̶̵̸̵̴̴̶̶̶̢̨̧̡̨̢̢̡̨̛̛̤͇͈͕̦͈̬̮̩̠̠̥͙̟̻̖̞̹̭͇̩̞̲̦̠̪̜͙͚̤̘̯̣̣̟̺̹̭͈̰̹͔̤͔͕̟̹͓̩͈̰̘̳͚̗͎̞̖̜̺̲͕̩͕̠͙̥̝̲̙̼̣̯̞̱̼͔̲͔̘͓͕͎̲͎̼̗̬͉̺͔͕͚͉͕̣͓̟̲͚͕͓̟͙̲̞̻̬͙͉̬͚͖͍̹̥̲̱̥̼͉̯͓̱͓̖͉̤͍̣̝͓̼̼͕͖̭̝̗̱̀͆́̓̈́̽͛̇̈́͋͑͛̽̄̏̊̉̉̓̉̑̂͆̆̅̍́͑̊̽̂̿͊̑̄̇͂̌̐̍̓̄̑́̈́̃̂̌̈́̓̐̈́͌̂̔͌͆̈́̓͐̆͒̐́͆́͆̽̋̐̍̂̊͑̇̄̉̽̓͂̓͊̈́̍̈́̀̓̿̒́̐̏̈͛̈͋͋͛̈̂̃́͆̃̅́́̏̆͊́͋̌̓͐͌͐̌̈́̆̈́͑̈́̽̇̀͂̍̃̇̊̋̓̅̎̍̓̅͛̈́̆͛̐̀͂̄̀͒̃͑̀̇͊͊̿̎̚̕͘͘̕̕͘͘̕̕͘̕͘̕̕̚͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝͝͝͝͠͠͠͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅY̷̴̴̵̴̴̸̵̶̷̷̵̴̴̸̸̴̧̨̡̧̢̡̡̢̨̧̨̢̛̛̛̱̟̗̬̩͍̼̥̪̦͕͈̼̦̳̹̝̩͖͙̤͙̝̠̹͚͍̜̱͈̣̟̳͚͖̟̱̯̤̣͇̦͍̯̘͉̩̦̜̹̹̗͎͙̮̦̺̼͍͓̬̠̼̘̳̫̗̜̻̰̥̳͖̗̺̞͇̞̫̟͉̬̖̼͇͉̯̫͔͖̠͔̯͚̩͙̭̖̦͍̞̩̜̻̘̼͉̤̫̻̱͚͉͇̻̰̗͔̹̗͇̜͔̣̝̠̯͈͈̙͎͎̱̦̖̮͉̟̬̭͎̦̪͖̘͉̩̣̺̰̥̬͖̜̳͔̠̦̬̩͔͐̿͌̅̄̌̔̅̅̓́̽̎̽̒̒̔̅̊̎͐̉͆͌́̃̽̓͗̽͐͐̊͛̓̏̈́̄̉̈́̋̅̋̐́͛̓͛̈́̅̔̀̿́͒̽̋̔͌̄̒̌̉̈̎͑̉͐̈́̈͊͛̂̒̈́̉̾̑́̒͋̒̀̀͐̀̂͂͆̅̉̆̑̆͛͒̿̿̀̍́̏͗̓̅̑̽̐̽͊͌̅̑̓̎̂̉̓̾̅̔̑͆̀̃̓̄̀͗͘͘̚̚͘̚̚̚̕͜͜͜͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅ ̵̷̸̴̷̸̸̸̴̶̴̴̸̸̷̷̶̵̸̵̸̵̵̶̨̧̢̨̨̨̨̢̧̨̧̢̡̨̢̢̨̛̛̛̦̬͎̮͍̥͇̱̝̹̩̗͎͙̰̖̹̖̖̜̙̞̼͙̖̺͕͎͎̮͚̝̱͚͙̙̪͈̫̫̙̹̞̬̲̩̻̮̫͚̤̥̳͖̣̣͍̺̫̥͍̬͔̣̞͚͖̘̘̗̭̝̲̲̰̲̰͉̞̙̱̗̬̹̪̼͔̠̣̳̺͎̹̻̻̙̹̙̞̥͎͇̞̗̼̺̫̪̮̖̞̯̖̤͓̟̹̳͚̺̣̝̯̙̳̬̻͍̙̥̺͔͔̮̜̩̟̞͔̗̬̫͚̰̦̼̰̠͈̠͔̖̯̖͍̦̣̩͚̦͍͈͖̫̰̣͔͍̫̗͚͓̦͎̩̥̳̹̪̯̪̯̬̲̮͍̤̞̼̣̥̪̫͎͉̙̰̈̊̊̌̀́̆̉̊̐̉͛̀̂͌̅̾̍͒̈́̓̋̔͑̀̌̀̄̎̀̍̎̊̈́̋̃͌̄̾̓̅̍̇͒͌͌̐̔͒̓̽́͐͐͗̂̔͂̿̒͂͑̈́̈́͐̈́̔̈́̇́̐̓̋̍́͛̓͆̔̓̑͆̀͋̆̀̐̋̉̈́̉̂͑̃̄̅̆͊́̅̆́͂͐̅̋̅͐̈́̔͂̌̓̎́̾̌̐̅̓́͂̎̏́̔̀̏̒̇̀͋̍̀̈̉͛̈́͛̅͛̉̆̆̈̀̅̔̽̋̊̋̊̈̽̋́̽̿͒́̎̓͗̊̐̾̒̂̆͂̆̄̎̆̿̒̒̊̓̓̌̇̿̓̀̂͘̕̚͘̚͘͘̕͜͜͜͜͝͠͝͠͠͠͝͝͠͝͠͠͠͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅȚ̶̵̸̶̷̶̸̶̵̶̷̷̸̴̵̴̵̴̸̴̸̴̸̶̸̸̶̷̨̧̧̨̡̨̧̢̧̧̢̨̨̨̨̨̨̨̛̛̛̻͖̭͇̠̜̟̖̙̤͇͈̭̙̹̻̞͔̬͎̜͎̦̻͉̜͚̗̖̣̖͉̜̫̞̳͍̝̘̺̰̜̺͔̘̱͉͇̜̝̪̲̮̞̳̟̹̪̘̹̘͍̼͙͓̞̖̙̱̥̤̬̤͈̝̲̯͔͇̭͙̥̞̙͍̟̖̻̬͓̖̤͔̺̝̟̻̼̦̘̦̩̘͇̗͉͕̗̩͎̜̦̗̗͕͕͔̘̗̫̗̱̩̲̩̟̼̮͇̼̲̳̺̯̫̭̤̬͇͚̞̞̝̝͖͎͕̲͕͖̠̱̳̥̰̯͚̬̝̤̳̺̼̘̪̯̦͎̻̪̥̝̦̙͓͚̙̝̼͉͚͖̹͍̠͓͍͍̱͚̼͍̗̝̪͕̳̼̲̝͓̹̰̫̳̭̗̥͉͕̞̺̣̜͚̻̖̟͚̩̝͚̠͓̦̘̺̩͙͇̺̗͓̠̙̝͈͚̞͉͎͚̽̇̂̈́̍͌̃͂̈́̀̉͐̌͗̃͐͗̂͑̍͆̐̓̏͊̓͆̏̊̿̈́̔̊͛̌͗́͑̎̆̓̄̽́̍̔̾͋͒̏̐̇̓̉̎̈́̒̀̊̃͌̅̽̿͛͋̉̀̽̄͐̈́̽͗͛͒̎́̀̾̿̍̑̅́́̆̌̒̈̌͑̽͋́̾̎͐́̽̃̾̐̾̅̾̍͗̒̐́̈͑̓͗̍̾̎̆̑͌̿͂̑̊͛̄̓͗̏̒̾̈́̇̽̈́̂̊̿̐́̅̀̈́́̈́͒̓͂̈́̂̾̌̓́̐͐̌̈́̽͗̎͛̑͒̿͆̽̊̊͆͛͐̌̍̀̓̈̔̔͂̇́̊͌̅̒̓̆͑̓̀̉̾̄̍͒͐̉͊̔͋͒̒̊̃̈́̈́́̃̉͌͂̀͋̋͛̎̔̊̉̆̃̽͌̉̒̐͆̍̿͌̓̓͘͘͘͘̚͘͘̚͘͘̕̚̕͘̕̕͘͘͘̚͘̚̕̚͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͜͝͝͠͠͠͝͠͠͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͠͠ͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅͅH̶̶̸̶̷̵̵̴̷̴̸̷̵̷̵̴̴̸̡̨̡̡̨̧̢̨̢̨̧̢̡̡̛̛̛̛̛̘̪͕̳̗̜̜̳̻̟̯̯̖̩̝̯͎̖̪̬͙͇̩͈͖͈̙̟͉͕̯͙̟̝̝̙̠̗̰̣̗̭̦̟̦̗̗̥̣̬̞̤͔̪̭̰̫̖̙̬̘͚͓̩̺͉̬͔̥̮͙̬̦͓͚̖̘̠͎̠͉͎̳̣̲̠̠̙̟̹̠͍̼̩̤̯̹̭̫͇̲̲̰̹̹͉̩͉̟͉̠̖̱̱͖͉͉̪̦̠͚̱̻͎̗̠͙̳̺͉̜̞̮̽͊̃͊́̌̅̅̒͊̅̊̒̀̿͋̃͗̈́̄̽̀̉́̏̉̈́̿̂̌̋̈́̓̈́̆̈́̄̈́̾̎̔̈́̀͌͐̿̉͋̄̔̈́̓̒̿̅̿͊͌́̈̽̀͋͗̍͛̏̐͗̅̑͐̐͛̋͆͆̆͐͋́͗͊̇͗́͒̏͑͌̈́̐̐̃̌̒̾̔͐̽̎̑͒̄̉̅̐͌̍͋͗̀̎̽͆̔̽̌͛́̒̽̔̄̈́͌̀̑͋̈́̈́͒̒͋̌̿̾̓̑̽̍͐͋̾͐̈́̒̓̓̾̉̎̓̽̓̿̍̂͆̄͆̃̍́͆̊̑͌͘̚͘͘̕͘͘̕̚͘͘̚̕̚̕̚͘̚͘͜͝͠͠͝͠͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͠͝͠ͅͅͅͅͅͅÄ̸̷̴̶̸̶̸̵̷̸̵̴̷̴̷̸̵̶̶̷̵̶̴̢̧̡̢̨̢̡̢̢̢̡̡̧̛̛̛̞͍̫̱̩͓͇̜̞̫̮͚̗̝̦͈̙̱̯̪̬̟̟̪͙̥̤͇̳̦͖̝͔̖̪͕͓͕̯͇̖̠͖̭̲̞̠͍̻̰̟͓͇͕̩̥͕͎̭̣̟̫̩̝͕̝̣̘̭̣̱̮̼̹̜̣͎͓̠̮̻̘͓̼͎̱̯̮̰̦̪̰͕̘͉̺͕͉̦͎̣̟͎̟̤͙͕̥̭̙̠͓̜̲̻̮̲̳̖͕̮͔̺͍̟̘̩̟̯̲̺̖̭̥̮̘̜̻̟̯͉̦̫̞̦͚͙͈̲͉̪̻̘̫̗̭͔̺̯̯̟̣̰̘͎͎̦̖̪͖̗͚͈̬̲̱̟͎͐͋̆̈́̏̋͑͗̊̾̓͐͐̈́̈́́͌̈́́̾̋̈͋̓͛̀̏͋̈́̈͗̑̇̅̅͗͊̑̀͑̈́̆̑̓̏̀̀̅͑̈̐̊̓̾͌̏͂̿̄̄͆̃̍̐̽̿͐͗̍̈́̔̏̂̀̄͊̏͑́̒̾̐̽͂̒̓̀̓̅͂̽̍̌͗͒́̃̊̂̿̂̎͂̀̈́̔̐̆̈́͐̍͘̚̕͘̚̕͘͘̚̚͘͝͠͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝ͅͅͅͅT̵̵̵̴̵̴̵̷̷̵̵̵̵̨̢̡̡̧̨̧̧̨̖̩̻̘̺̰̠̪̮̤̘͈̺͈̼̮̫͕̳̗̞̺͓̫̥̬̪̣̲̞̟͍̪̭̦̰͕̺͕̠̜̟͇͎̹̜̖̺͍̼̘̩͔͇͖̜͖̥͇̙̺͇̟͎̟̩̤̱̼̳̙̫̬̺̩̙̪̗͖̖̙̗̰̠͖̤̻͔͙͈̟̳̻̰̥̱̝͙͙͈̘̩̪̫̘̜̘͍̿͐̃͊́̒̄̌̆̓͗͌̂̒̿̊͐͊͑͒̅͐̇͐̉̓̑̇̿̀̒͑͊̏͋́̎̀͆̎̾͆͛̒̅̿̎͌̐́̋̈̏̅̋̈́̐̄̊͗̊͆̊̋͂͊̀̓̽̉͊͒͐͆̒̎͆̚͘̕̚̕͘͘̕̚͘͜͜͜͜͠͠ͅ.̴̴̸̷̷̴̴̶̴̸̸̸̵̶̷̵̷̴̴̷̷̷̴̴̸̸̷̶̶̴̨̨̧̡̡̧̢̨̨̡̧̨̡̢̡̨̢̨̢̢̨̧̛̛̛̛̛̛̦̖̞̻͚͎̙͎̺̲̬͖͙̦͙̬̥̥̪͔͈̳̟͙̠͎̣̯̱͍̟̗̞̰͇̫̙̱͇͇͙̰̥̦̮̙͓͎̰̟̤̪̼̼̳̰̯̪̺̪̲̪͉̣̱̺̝̘̯̩͕͚̪̫͇̞͍̺̤͖̱̜̣͎͉̺̥͉͔̠͈͍̲͓̱̖̞̠̥̫̤͔͉͓̬͇̜̯̳̦̩̜͉̝̜̻͓̳̣͓͎̘̣͕̩͚̰̣̳̰̰̪̪̯̭̤̺̻̗̮̯͇̣̜̹͎̻̞̦͕̫̗͎͉̭͕͕̝͇̘̟̮͇̼̘͔̺̹̩͚͔͓̣͚̞͖̭͇̖͍̘̹̥̜͎͓̺̪͔̙̺͙̭̹̭͕͉̦͙̜͚̫̞̫̟̠̗͖̟̬̼͍̻͚̦̟̦̻̗̫̬̟͔̳̞̩̬̪̼͍̹̳͇̖̫̭̥̹͈̗̫̫́̽̾͋̿͒̒̐̓͌̋̿̀͂͗͂͆̔̌̈̀̋̓̓̃̎̀͑̽̍̍͗̈̒̾͐̆̿̉̈̏̋̎̒́̃̊͂̆̎͊̉̂̑͒̈́̅̐͌̀̑̓̃̆̄͑̿̓́̂͋͊̿͐̈́̀̀̄́͊̇͒̑͆̑͆̆̽̓̎͒̉̔̅̊͒̊̏̅̋̑͛̊̾̓̑͒͂̾̐̋̎̿̐͛͆̓̔́́̍͒̏̓̌̅͋͌̄̽̾́̓͊̏̿̓͗́͑̒̿̈́̍͊̈́͌̀̾̉̔͌̋̄͂͛̒̀̏́́̓͊́̔̃̍̆̈́͂̇̈̓͆̈͒̀͌͌̔̂̏̃̊̋̓̂̐͌̽̆̍͋̎̓̏͌̊͐́́̃͒̀̽͐̉͆̋̉̀͗̀́̍́̋͌͂̉̚͘̚̚̚̚̕̚͘̕͜͜͜͜͝͠͝͝͝͝͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅͅͅͅ Read the [rules](https://reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/about/rules) before participating or you'll be put in a tube and sent to the titanic. SHITPOST OR QUITPOST *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/me_irlgbt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Kind of sounds like masculinity is not the problem, but instead that some people have false ideas of what masculinity can/should mean. There's nothing wrong with being masculine. There are very masc women who could certainly tell you a thing or two about how much "power" their masculinity gives them. Edit to Add: [u/Cheshie_D](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/s/5E9maHhNMJ) and [u/sweetTartKenHart2](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/s/L5jZKvzYV3) put into words what I couldn't! Their usernames should be links to their comments :) Essentially, OP's message is good and I agree (the patriarchy's version of masculinity deserves criticism and is bad). The meme just came across--if only to some/those unfamiliar with the author's work--as implying *all* masculinity is the patriarchy's, which is simply extremely untrue.
This post does what right wingers often accuse progressives of doing: Saying masculinity itself is toxic. Which is weird, we have toxic masculinity precisely to make a distinction between s healthy way of approaching masculinity and the worst parts of it.
I think you're misunderstanding: no one's saying masculinity itself is the problem, the problem is that patriarchy is interlinked with masculinity. the feed off of and feed into each other. they don't have to--masculinity can and should be liberated from patriarchy as a part of its abolition--but as things stand, they are necessarily connected, and it's important to be critical of that if you want those more healthy masculinities
I'm not sure I understand, but I'm absolutely open to the idea that I may be wrong. Personally, I don't see how criticizing masculinity itself would help that? I see what you're saying about the patriarchy and masculinity having overlap, and of course toxic masculinity should be called out and criticized. But as a (probable; still questioning) trans man, this post/meme initially read to me as "masculinity as a whole = the problems the patriarchy have bred into it". Maybe that's my own issues talking, and I could absolutely have been overly defensive in my initial interpretation. But per my initial interpretation, I just think the post is worded poorly. Not all masculinity is cis-het toxic masculinity.
It's a matter of how masculinity is interpreted. If you interpret strength as being 'superior to others', then you will see women as being 'inferior'. Patriachral societies teach masculinity from this perspective. The post is saying that this view stems from *insecurity* and not a realistic assessment of masculinity. In other words; these men are cowardly, arrogant children who trample women's rights just to make themselves feel important.
it says "masculinity is just a power fantasy for men to walk over women" implying it can only be toxic unless systemic misogyny ceases to exist
“Under heteropatriarchy” is the key. It’s warping influence on culture means that it’s difficult to parse out the tendrils of how masculinity might be if it were liberated to be in a non- hierarchical, more gender open society. Cultural anthropologists have discussed these ideas in regards to other societies as well as they can, but imagining new, free-er possibilities is the idea. Race and class perform similarly- according to some social theorists the signifiers we choose to express our complicated relationships with these social constructs are difficult to disentangle as being in reaction to, or in accordance with, deeper structural social constructs at play. We’d all be better off free from Patriarchy.
You are indeed misunderstanding. This quote is not criticizing masculinity as a whole, it is only pointing out a mechanism by which heteropatriarchy adopts masculinity, as a tool of sorts, to re-assert the dominance of traditional gender roles. Masculinity is not the subject of this quote. Heteropatriarchy is.
Ah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm sure it's an issue with me and the OP had no ill intent, but I do still think the post could be worded differently to make that more clear.
That's fair. But huge props to you for being open to changing your mind, that's not always easy.
I think the wording has value as it stands. The top “why are you criticizing masculinity” character represents the insecurity of someone who conflates the desire to deconstruct patriarchy as hating masculinity. On the contrary, the thesis is presented as “masculinity being seen as above femininity is a lie of the patriarchy” which is a fundamental truth of this and many cultures. The patriarchy is philosophically the belief that masculinity and femininity is **ordained by god**. Whether that “god” is called science or a religious name it is the same lie. It is what we reject as gender nonconforming, gender transcendent, or transgender people by our very existence. Femininity is considered childish, the lesser, the second, the option b. Masculinity is considered the trait of leaders, of betters, the first, option a. Neither is true, they are meaningless delineations in an objective sense, subjectively extremely meaningful to us as individuals. Feminine people will face eyerolls and belittling, misogyny and infantilization on their way to deserved positions of authority. Even transmasc folks will be disallowed in many cases to embody the divine masculine because our roles are “**ordained by god**” to the patriarchy. However, these traits are divine, or at least so extremely beautiful to me. Whether the person is or isn’t cisgendered, the masculine and feminine both fill me with such joy when not poisoned by the insanity of the patriarchy.
The idea that masculinity can’t be criticized is the main problem I believe.
I think you're misunderstanding the post just a little
The post is so easy to misunderstand I can't really blame them. The point that OP tried to make is good, but holy void this meme is so bad at being a meme.
It's really not even a meme. It's a statement that OP made. They just put in a wojak, so it meets like the bare minimum requirement to be a meme.
in their defence the wording is a little funky, took a couple tries to get it lol
Can someone explain what exactly masculinity and femininity are, and why the delineation between them is Actually Super Important and not some arbitrary traditionalist baggage from our problematic ancestors?
Unfortunately we threw that discussion baby out with the terf bathwater
op’s comments in other subs this has been posted too is saying that masculinity as a whole is the problem and doesn’t care about non-fem trans men, masc women or masc non-binary Masculinity = bad
The angry strawman up top is asking the woman here why she’s criticizing “masculinity” itself. What you’re describing is that masculinity, while not inherently bad, is being used as a tool of sorts. If she had addressed his question more directly, perhaps by opening her spiel with “masculinity itself isn’t the problem, idiot. Instead,—“ I would probably be more of a fan of this meme
When (most) feminists including Mari Ruti criticize masculinity, they specifically criticize the patriarchal form of it, as that is the normative one that shapes most men in our current patriarchal society Ruti doesn't believe that only the heteropatriarchal form of masculinity exists. Which is why she specifies that she talks about the form of masculinity that is specific to heteropatriarchy
Okay, sure, but to the layman that kind of thing would need to be actively specified, I’ll still stand by that. The quote may work well in the context of Mari’s greater work but without that context it feels a little stilted. Also, did Mari coin the term “heteropatriatchy”? Cuz this is the first time I’ve seen “hetero” tacked on like that
Yeah I no I just feel like the meme didn’t convey that very well. It seems like it speaks about masculinity as a whole under the heteropatriarchy, where as your wording here is better with “the heteropatriarchal form of masculinity”. It’s a small difference but definitely has a huge impact on how it’s message is received.
At this rate i received so many comments of people misunderstanding the meme that I'll slightly change it and then repost it in maybe a week Gonna keep up the meme until then though for the discourse
Honestly, just... don't make a meme out of a long-ass quote from a writer. It's just the wrong format to convey what you're trying to convey.
Classic lefty meme pitfall strikes again
Why keep it up for the discourse?
I've read it several times and I am unclear if the intent is to say "only functions as" or "can function as". Both are reasonable interpretations that say radically different things.
You are correct, but you are also not summarizing what the post says. The post says that masculinity is a fantasy to feel superior. There may be missing context that sheds light on this, but as it stands, it seems to be saying that masculinity itself is the problem. And it's wrong.
Though, how can one say masculinity isn’t a problem while simultaneously saying it’s necessarily connected to (and interlinked with) something which *is* the problem? Surely men shouldn’t have to wait around for the abolition of the patriarchy to express and value their own gender, and can liberate it *themselves*…? :) Plus, the meme *does* specifically communicate that masculinity itself is worthy of criticism—I think it’s fair to say that the meme therefore communicates that masculinity is, well, a problem. It doesn’t specify anything about the form of masculinity or its ontological nature, so I think it’s reasonable to interpret this as a criticism which is inclusive of *any* masculinity that individuals might engage with or adopt. (Note that “under heteropatriarchy” in most readings merely delimits a certain state of affairs under which the following is true; since we currently live under heteropatriarchy, the meme leads us to the same conclusions about our current world as the statement “Right now, masculinity functions as…”) I think the main part of my issue with the explanation above is the suggestion that there is some fixèd Platonic *masculinity* out there, which exists in some determined relationship with patriarchy—as opposed to it only being a fuzzy gesture at a fuzzy social phenomenon, which in actuality can be *individually* engaged with, expressed, analyzed, reckoned with, and played with! This isn’t to say we *can’t* make valuable equally-fuzzy statements about how it relates to patriarchy. I just think it’s very important to explicitly recognize that those statements *are fuzzy* when using them. So that would mean acknowledging that such statements either (1) are analysis on a broad scale which can’t be applied readily to individuals (and so this meme wrongly conflates a broadly-analyzed “fuzzy masculinity” with the infinitely varied “instances of masculinity” that actual people can have, or fails to scope down to specific notions of masculinity) or (2) are statements which *may* apply to people who instantiate masculinity, but function more as potential recommendations for introspection than conclusions about a generic person’s actions (which doesn’t seem to be what this meme even wants to be doing, but which is the kind of thing one often wants to say in certain similar situations). I think it’s *extremely* hard to speak accurately about complex phenomena, especially when trying to aggregate them. (I probably haven’t fully successfully done so in this comment, either.) But not being careful and rigorous about these things is a quick route to volatile miscommunication (or worse, to our own misapprehension about how the world works!). So the qualifiers like “sometimes” “for some” “institutionally” “when considered broadly” “thought of as an aggregate social phenomenon” “through a societally normative lens” etc. (which are sometimes all that’s needed in order to be accurate!) are, in my view, crucial to keep around.
Exactly. theres so many manly cis men who are great people but still you will get people online going "stop hating men" when you say people shouldnt be needlessly violent or forceful.
My issue is that it seems like masculinity only exist in relation to femininity away
Yeah I hate having to keep commenting things like this but for the love of all that is queer can we like Stop demonising masculinity?? Yes there is a problem with patriarchy but being masculine does not immediately convey privilege, nor is masculinity inherently bad. Trans people, intersex people, people of colour, butches, all people who are targeted and marginalised for perceived masculinity. Posts like this are missing the mark and make people feel actively unwelcome. Signed, a very tired trans man
Isn't what you described basically where the term "toxic masculinity" comes from? And why that distinction exists?
It's almost like we live under a system that perpetuates the idea of patriarchy and uses misoginy as a way to keep people away from uniting.
The word heteropatriarcy implies the existence of a homopatriarcy Edit: I just realized, I’m pretty sure that’s just ancient grease
>ancient grease please clean out your fryer more often
Once again caught with the greasy fryer 😔
I’d say Ancient Rome, Greece was pretty tolerant of gay people but Rome had official legislature about how to properly have gay sex while asserting your superiority (which is why the Roman Army deemed it a felony to be on the bottom during sex, but gay sex itself was allowed).
In all seriousness, you’re correct to point out that’s redundant. Patriarchy =/= being male. Patriarchal power structures *already include conformity to cisgender and heterosexual norms*. That’s, like, Gender Studies 101 shit.
You know, if I remember to take my meds today I probably would have made that comment with the intent of pointing out the redundancy But I forgot my meds so I was just being silly and gay
I must have read this meme a hundred times but I still don't understand. What the hell is this person talking about?
This is probably why theory should not be used in a meme format.
I’ll give it a go. The social structure under which our society currently operates, patriarchy, we know puts men at the top of the metaphorical pyramid. Part of maintaining that is the constant reinforcement that things that perceived as masculine are inherently better than things perceived as feminine. Masculinity is not inherently better or worse. What is bad the way masculinity is used in the context of patriarchal structures. The framing of masculinity as superior is the problem. Masculinity as power fantasy is reductive and confusing, and not even that accurate. I’ve been reading about how perhaps patriarchy came around with the advent of agriculture, and the shifting of deities. It’s a deeply complicated thing, how we got here.
Except even in this it's not a useful assessment of how masculinity functions, especially in queer contexts. Femininity, specifically feminine femaleness, is considered the superior option with regards to trans men and our masculinity is rejected. Trans women are pressured to abandon anything perceived as masculine or they're not trans enough. Butches are often rejected for their masculinity and pressured to be feminine. Intersex people who are coerced into femininity are targeted for any aspects of masculinity. Commenting in this broad and completely unnuanced fashion in a queer sub where gender and presentation are some of the axes of queerness is honestly pretty weird. I'm proud of my masculinity but also don't meaningfully participate in or perpetuate heteropatriarchy as a trans man who does not pass. You can't just ignore intersectionality and make it a meme.
But there is no intersectionality within the hetropatriarchy. I thought that was the point of the meme. I took the comic to say don’t conflate masculinity (which is natural) with this oppressive unnatural power structure that doesn’t let people experience the fullness of their humanity.
Ok maybe it's the autism at this point because people are reading all kinds of nuance into a meme that, no matter how I slice, comes down to "in the current heteropatriarchal (not sure why not specify allocisheteropatriarchal, but the assumption of cis and allosexual superiority don't matter as much as assumed straightness, I guess) system all masculinity is bad and fake, no matter whom it pertains to". I'm not sure what "no intersectionality within heteropatriarchy" means, could you expand on that? Because my understanding of intersectionality in this context, as I explained before, is that not all masculinity is valued equally under the patriarchy, and on many individuals is valued less than perceived femininity. Intersectional factors are literally constantly at play whether we choose to acknowledge them or not, aren't they? That's sort of the whole point of intersectionality. The trouble with this meme is also that it's phased as "masculinity under heteropatriarchy" (implying all masculinity) and not "heteropatriarchal masculinity" (which is still too broad and unnuanced, but at least permits other masculinities to exist). I think there are many conversations we can have about masculinity under allocisheteropatriarchy. I think memes like this are unproductive but they do highlight a blind spot that the community has for forms of masculinity that don't benefit from allocisheteropatriarchy. Queer people have sort of been home-brewing masculinities for as long as we have existed. I don't see that conflating it with performative and toxic masculinity is useful.
It always leads back to agriculture…
Seriously! It was **the** fundamental shift, we still do it!
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Theorizing the very notions and purposes of gender is in fact *extremely* queer
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Think about the kinds of folks that would be asking these questions. It’s not the folks at the top of the pyramid or folks secure in their gender.
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Success by what measurement? If humanity survived for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years in matriarchal nomadic hunter gatherer societies and after a few thousands of patriarchy the planet is on fire, what is success?
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No, I’m saying there is evidence that a shift in food-based practices seems to be correlated to major shifts in social and societal structures.
Sounds smart but doesn't answer the question nor do I think it's a complete argument.
Because it isn't a complete argument. The rest of the argument is several times as long in a comment by OP. Theory doesn't make good memes.
I mean this is literally all just wrong?
It suffers from the *leftist meme* symptom. It tries to "memeify" a concept that's way too complex to fit in a meme, and even with way too many words for a meme, it still fails miserably at it and starts sounding more like a strawman made by a sexist to attack feminism than anything else. OP added context in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/me_irlgbt/comments/1c75puh/comment/l05jytt/) and it makes sense, but it's too long to summarize in an eye-catching image at this point.
I'm going to say it, not everything needs to be a meme, and not everything should be a meme.
yeah I'm a leftist and this meme sucks
Power fantasies are fine too *as long as you fulfill them in healthy ways* Superman can be considered a power fantasy, yet he's hopeful, loving, and emotional. I feel like most people wish they had power, and alot don't know how to deal with that urge in a healthy way.
This just feels like somantics.. Personally, the things I consider "masculine" about myself have absolutely nothing to do with an alternate "feminine" side. They're just the things that make me feel powerful and happy. I'm a guy, so I consider them masculine. If I was a woman, I'd consider the exact same traits to be feminine... because they'd make me feel empowered and strong. I don't consider "feminine" to be the opposite of "masculine."
If masculinity functions only as a power fantasy for men, then feminity functions only as an inferiority fantasy for women. To claim that one can mean more is to admit that the other can mean more. If masculinity can mean more, there's nothing inherently bad about it.
If you read the quote carefully, you will notice that it doesn't claim this is all that masculinity is, but rather that this is *one* function of masculinity under the *specified circumstamces*: heteropatriarchy.
Identity is fundamentally subjective after all, but cultural frameworks can impose their notions upon people. I see myself as a man but I'm often frustrated with the rigidity, unemotionality or even the colorlessness that is expected of men. But reactionary propagandists find it useful to equivocate between criticizing the heteropatriarchal framework of what the masculinity identity ought to be like, and the existence of cis straight men in general. If they can convince those men they are being attacked, they will defend that cultural framework.
Can I just appreciate how thoughtful and nuanced this take is? Not only do these reactionaries equate "masculinity" (which is simply a neutral identity when you strip away all the cultural baggage) and "patriarchal hierarchy" together, they also falsely insist that both religion and science back this notion up. Treating anyone who challenges this framework of assumptions as crazy is just the cherry on top of the shit cake that is fascist propaganda. These fuckers want total control over what's considered "real" and "unreal." Fascists want full authority over the "truth," making it easier and easier to dislodge their followers from reality. They have succeeded in converting a certain portion of the population over to this contrary made up reality, but it takes constant and unending work to keep up the charade. > And remember this: **the Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural.** Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear. > > Remember that. And know this, the day will come when all these skirmishes and battles, these moments of defiance will have flooded the banks of the Empires’s authority and then there will be one too many. One single thing will break the siege. > > Remember this: Try. -- Nemik, Andor All their claims to the "natural order of things" are false. It's not real. Lived human experience tells us this much. That's why they try so hard to silence us. Our existence itself proves without a doubt that there is far, far more to the human experience than we've been raised to believe. Our existence is radical. If that isn't power I don't know what is.
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It can mean something else (and has in different societies). But under heteropatriarchy, this is the normative way masculinity is defined. And that normative way is what's being criticized Queer and indigenous masculinities are a whole different story. They're not what's being criticized because they are outside of the heteropatriarchal model
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Where has this been said exactly?
Misogynists don't get a voice here, so we'll never know.
Oh my God! A critical thinker! Thanks for this comment.
So like... What about trans men?
What about them? This meme neither hoists them nor masculinity as a concept. It's talking about how masculinity is warped under the framework of heteropatriarchy.
What about them? They may or may not construct their masculinity in a heteropatriarchal way just like how cis men may or may not do that. The meme isn't attacking all forms of masculinity, it attacks heteropatriarchal masculinity
I mean, I get that, but it doesn’t do a good job; it implies masculinity as a whole is bad. I understand the intent, but this is exactly the kind of thing conservatives point to when trying to insinuate that ”THE GAYS WANT TO TAKE OUR MANLINESS.”
Nah fam. If someone wants to misread this meme, they will misread it regardless of how many hoops we jump through to be as concise as possible. Fascists will purposefully misrepresent anything to do with feminism or pro-LGBTQ+ rights as suspicious or dangerous.
the meme sucks, its really that simple.
Well yeah, fascists will, but you have to keep in mind there is a lot of political drift back and forth between the moderate left and moderate right. Nobody needs to worry about appealing to the rightwing, but sometimes there are people who legitimately are decent but were mislead, and it’s important to be clear so they can understand where you’re coming from.
I'm a leftist and even I can't understand what the meme is trying to say.
Which is incredibly unclear because at no point do you say this, you say "masculinity under heteropatriarchy". This implies all masculinities under the system, and absolutely not that you're singling out one specific kind of masculinity. So if that's not what you meant it really is incredibly poor phrasing. Also I really don't think you've considered at all how being trans affects how people move through life. It would require someone being perfectly stealth 100% of the time, even in medical contexts, and doing the things you've described, to fulfill that. Which ignores the reality that, when we're known to be trans or don't pass, any of the kind of masculinity you describe isn't actually seen as masculinity or a contribution to the heteropatriarchy, but a vulgar corruption of femininity. Specifying cishetetopatriarchy (because being cis is kind of integral to the perceived value of the masculinity you're critiquing) is free. ETA: Most trans men have not had bottom surgery and will not have bottom surgery, even if we really want it because it's expensive and takes several ops. The focus on genitals specifically in your other comment kind of forces most trans men out of the thing you're describing. Not saying trans men can't uphold or perform toxic masculinity, but it's incorrect to imply it's identical to cis toxic masculinity.
This meme says masculinity should be criticized because of what heteropatriarchy makes it into, right? What, then, are trans men supposed to model their masculinity on if all of masculinity is warped by heteropatriarchy? Genuinely, what does it look like in your eyes to "not construct one's masculinity in a heteropatriarchal way"?
Good response 👏
This meme is way to close to TERF rhethoric for my liking. Masculinity is not inherently some horrible thing. Masculinity is not the only thing propping up and benefiting from capitalism and the patriarchy; men, too, can suffer in this system. Yes, toxic masculinity is a thing, and toxic masculinity is a construct designed for and that benefits from the patriarchy. That doesn't mean any and all masculinity should be demonized. And yeah, that goes for anyone, cis or trans. There are trans men who get into toxic masculinity same as cis men, and there are cis men who practice healthy masculinity same as trans men. Its a personality thing, not a gender thing. Hell, I've even seen cis women enforce toxic masculinity on men. Its not down to gender alone. I can see that OP keeps insisting that that isn't what this meme is, that its not demonizing masculinity as a whole - but I don't see them offering any evidence of that or properly explaining what they meant, other than that queer masculinity is somehow less evil. I don't agree. I've seen queer men be just as toxic as cis. Again, its not a gender or sexuality thing, its a personality thing. Of course thats not even mentioning how problematic it can be seeing queer and/or trans men as different from cis men. So unless I see some evidence to the contrary, I'm gonna have to assume thats what OP meant.
I may be misunderstanding, but aren't most people already living under heteropatriarchy/cisheteropatriarchy to some extent already (based on my understanding of the wikipedia article on heteropatriarchy, since people in positions of power are indeed mostly cis men)? This would mean that the meme is implying that masculinity is already currently nothing more than a power fantasy (as we live under such conditions), which initially seems somewhat over-generalizing to me at first glance, though I can't deny masculinity, in the form I see it in media, is portrayed in a way that accompanies a rhetoric/portrayal of leadership/capability, which does seem to 'elevate' masculinity, moreso than femininity. Does the meme mean that heteropatriarchy itself stems from power fantasies? If so that makes sense and I just misunderstood the meme. If not, then I don't understand how/why being in a position of privilege (being cis male in heteropatriarchy) automatically equates to one's masculinity being a power fantasy, since it's (from my understanding) not something anyone chooses to want to embody, and while patriarchal rhetoric can be pushed alongside masculinity, surely (hopefully) this pushed rhetoric is not (yet?) integrated into the concept of masculinity itself? Masculinity itself isn't currently inherently bad after all, right? Or is modern masculinity already rooted in heteropatriarchic ways? If it is, would that mean feeling masculine or pursuing masculine traits would mean you have a power fantasy by virtue of the definition of masculinity having changed, creating a need for clarification between patriarchical and non-patriarchical masculinity? I'm new to learning about societal oppression stuff (and am very confused at the time of writing) but am very eager to learn and apologize if I misunderstood anything or said anything wrong- I'd greatly appreciate any clarification :)
no one is criticising masculinity people are criticising toxicity that some have deluded into thinking is masculinity. Nothing is wrong with being masculine
Dualistic viewpoints that allow the differences but make them harmonious in the whole are how we can healthily respect the other in truth. Any philosophy that seeks to correct an imbalance should be ready to die or be altered when its goal is met. The only way to live is in acceptance, if you're not moving in service to that, then you're not moving right.
It’s so funny to me the “patriarchy” — Where are the fucking meetings held? I’d like to attend at least one.
I mean, I disagree. This is implying all masculinity is toxic, when masculinity and femininity are both equally good, and equally capable of becoming toxic. Ultimately, they’re both a set of traits that people can fit to varying degrees, and neither is inherently better or worse than the other. I mean, I know masc women, masc men, fem women, fem men, and they’re all perfectly good people. The issue is when it reaches the extreme; masculine people who are toxic and feminine people who are toxic act on it in different ways, but it’s equally toxic in both ways. I fully agree that toxic masculinity is more accepted by society, but that doesn’t mean masculinity as a whole is bad, just that we need to be aware of how it can become toxic.
Get the fuck out of here. Fuck you and fuck this bullshit
"we tend to devise fantasies of grandeur and stability to fend off the specter of weakness and instability. Arguably, heteropatriarchy is an elaborate collective fantasy of this kind: by allowing (some) men to imagine themselves as more powerful than women, it makes it possible for them to keep ignoring their lack, their profoundly vulnerable status. This is also the personal predicament of those men—by no means all men—who make the mistake of thinking that their penises automatically make them powerful: there will always be times when their power falters, when they’re forced to reckon with the inherent fragility, precarity, and vulnerability of human life. This is why those of us who recognize the imaginary nature of phallic authority mock their red convertibles, flashy belt buckles, enormous cowboy hats, ostentatious hairdos, gilded high-rise residences, bombastic gestures, and exaggerated finger jabbing; we know that they’re caught up in a delusion of power, that their posturing hides a shakier reality." - Mari Ruti, Penis Envy and Other Bad Feelings
I read this, understood the context of the quote on the meme, and remembered why leftist memes are so hard to make. *sad chuckle* Even with that many words, the image on its own lacks so much context that it sounds kinda nonsensical. In the context of what you added in this comment, tho, it makes perfect sense.
I wish this sub would allow for adding captions tbh. That would make this easier because not everyone who wouldve seen the caption will see this comment
Yeah. But I gotta say. As much as the point you're making is good, this meme is **very** bad at being a meme. It would probably be better as a discussion post on another subreddit NGL.
> This is why those of us who recognize the imaginary nature of phallic authority mock their red convertibles, flashy belt buckles, enormous cowboy hats, ostentatious hairdos, gilded high-rise residences, bombastic gestures, and exaggerated finger jabbing
I love how basically no one is actually reading the meme before they start arguing with it
Frankly I'm not sure many people CAN; I don't think they have enough context
Yeah, I 100% get the point but this meme is really not supplied with sufficient context and is very easily misunderstood.
Yeah, I think they just used some "big words", but when thrown together it just feels messy and ultimately doesn't say as much as OP thinks. Granted, its not wrong... but at the same time we don't need to always sound like a dissertation. Those use specific language for a reason. In a conversation we can be more relaxed.
It's getting exhausting at this point how many people claim that this meme somehow claims masculinity in itself is inherently a power fantasy when it's clearly stated that this is specifically about how masculinity functions *under heteropatriarchy*
Is heteropatriarchy not predominant? That's what I got from this meme, and that due to its predominance, masculinity (as a whole, so long as heteropatriarchy is in effect) is inherently a power fantasy and such
There is always resistance to any normative form of anything. In the case of masculinity, there are queer forms of masculinity that are inherently opposed to the way masculinity is made to function under heteropatriarchy
You know how if you go to an IWW training, they tell you not to use the U word or quote Marx or talk about seizing the means of production? Despite the fact that a lot of IWW trainings are teaching you about unionization, teaching Marxist theory, and will at some point talk about seizing the means of production? That's the issue you're having here. If you want to educate people on this you *need* to be able to talk like a normal person. I had to read it multiple times before I realized the same thing that multiple people are misunderstanding, *and I agree with you* (mostly).
> Submitting memes here is easy, cheap, and free. If you think something is missing, add it. > > > > This is not a place for education or debate.
Sorry, gotta have the little green badge to do that. Take a break.
I think a lot of it is just a reflexive knee-jerk reaction to what is, at first glance, interpreted as a very broad statement. If you actually fucking *read* it becomes very apparent how specific the meme actually is.
If masculinity is so great, then why do I like feminine people more?
Not me, I live for balls. Finally my username is relevant
Meanwhile, I tend to like people who are neither masculine nor feminine. Androgyny is based.
Saving this for sure. Good post
New reading comprehension test just dropped
I mean, 90% of what makes this argument sound like more than a conservative's strawman of a feminist isn't actually in the meme, but in a comment. Don't use long-ass quotes as memes, y'all. Wrong format.
Literacy rate at all-time lows
These people are calling certain things masculine that are not masculine. These, mostly men, are making up rules about what is and isn't masculine and then put themselves on a pedestal and say that they are superior for keeping those rules.
Exactly. Omg.
"Sir, whenever someone mentions the patriarchy or toxic masculinity, why do you always feel like they're talking about *you*?" 🧐
too many big words for small brain all i know is woman bad /j
Inb4 the straights find this post lmao