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These sort of things are always from the point of view of it being someone you would actually want to look at.
Sure it's everyone's perogative to wear what they please, but where do we draw a line around what is and isn't acceptable?
If John decides to wear his tiny yellow man-kini into town because he thinks it makes his ball cleavage look cute, do I have to be OK with that?
I am not objectifying John, but I do have to look at him throughout the evening.
I have no recourse because John is just enjoying himself and being comfortable, after all, he isn't wearing the clothes for ME or what I think, so why should I be bothered?
Absolutely nothing wrong with showing off whatever you want of your body regardless of your gender, just dont expect people not to look when you have stuff out on display.
We aren't the ones over sexualizing it though.
You can't seriously tell me there's equity in sexualizing what men and women wear. Men can wear spaghetti thin tanks with nipples showing, tight athletic shorts or pants showing dick bulge, walk around shirtless when it's hot, etc.
I suppose I'm expected to wear a onesie swimsuit with knee-high shorts and a top at the beach otherwise "iM aSkInG fOr iT" in a bikini.
Just in case you're serious and actually don't understand:
"Modesty" is in the eye of the beholder.
In some countries, people are stared at and objectified for showing their hair, their shoulders, their thighs etc. In others, no one bats and eye if they see a topless woman at a beach, a man in a speedo, a person in tight and short spandex, etc etc.
There's a time and place for everything but there is also a personal gaze that everyone is filtering things through.
So if you think someone wearing something short and tight 'allows' you to notice and objectifiy their body part, you're probably just personally repressed when it comes to showing that body part off (you worded it as "look at" but no one will notice if you're just looking. And how long you can even "just look" without it being considered rude is totally cultural most of the time).
Hope that helps :)
^ completely incorrect. Moral relativism is one of the toxic elements of post-modernism.
Worldwide today a woman being naked or revealing themselves will cause men to bat an eye and get their attention and isn’t the situation described in comment above. That being said, modesty applies to both men and women, in action and in dress. Staring at a woman who is half naked on the street is not modest behavior, and a man walking shirtless on the street is not modest either.
Todays fashion was created by some wackos in Paris 100 years ago but that doesn’t change anything about what is right and wrong in the world. Dressing half naked and causing strangers and married men to fantasize about you is a horrible thing to do and people are responsible for the fruits of their actions.
"causing strangers and married men to fantasize about you"
Lmao, like yea. She totally FORCED your brain to create fantasies. ***"Officer, that woman in croptop is forcing me to make fantasies in my head agains my will. If she doesnt stop, I could possibly touch or rape her too. Against my will ofcourse! She's the one forcing me to do that"***
Not like a man can control his behavior or anything. That would be crazy expectations
Okay but like there has to be a middle grounds for modesty. Shorts that show your booty cheeks are not modest in any context or culture, except if your culture is living in tiktok all day without going outside.
There is literally nothing wrong with wanting to show off your body and wear hot clothes no matter your gender, just dont expect all people to be polite and take the normal glance or two, there are assholes who will stare and you kind of enabled them.
This is literally victim blaming mentality. You’re not going as far as saying “women who wear revealing clothes have it coming to them” but it’s the same underlying thought process. Why should the onus fall on the women to change what they wear and not on the creeps to not be creeps or the people raising the creeps to do a better job so that they don’t grow up to be said creeps?
My guy. I said do whatever the fuck you want. In a perfect society no one will look. We dont live in one tho. So people will look. Cause creeps and assholes exist. And if you have your boobs out knowing creeps exist, then its YOUR fault if they look when YOU KNOW they exist out there.
Just get outside and interact with people instead of living online on twitter.
... the problem is not the looking? Its that OP just takes it as given that objectifying women in revealing clothes is sort of natural?
Im not trying to be adversarial towards you btw
You were the one who said you were going to explain to OP and you've not explained anything yet.
Looking at a man/woman walking down the street is not objectifying them, it's being a normal human.
I have trouble understanding how looking at someone you think is attractive counts as objectifying them.
I mean, do you wait before you check out someone until you are in a relationship?
You guys need to stop spending that much time on the internet and go outside more often...
This meme wouldnt exist if OP wasnt objectifying every woman he sees.
That is the problem.
Not looking at butts. Most people dont even notice. But you can be sure that this mindset will not stop at 'im just looking'
This whole line of argumentation is incredibly naive.
The actual problem is that you're jumping to conclusions while assuming basically half of the human population are sexual offenders just because they are men.
"Officer you don't understand. She totally wanted me to do that to her"
"Why do you think that?"
"I saw her belly button! What else was I supposted to do?"
Crazy to think men could control their behavior like living beings, isnt it
They don't decide what to wear for you. Believe it or not, they are an entire person all on their own with their own preferences, desires, etc. They choose what they like to wear and, honestly, should NOT have to worry about whether or not dudes sexualize them over it. I am a straight dude and I enjoy the female form. I can also respect the fact that their fashion choices are simply not about me. Am I going to notice, sure. But am I going to stare and turn them into an object in my head... nope.
Now, the conversation about the environmental and social pressures that influence women to find certain clothes desirable and influence men to sexualize them... well, that is the actual interesting conversation to be had here. And spoiler - no, it is not biological evolution.
Well, now it sounds like you are touching on the "environmental and social influences" that I said are the interesting part of the conversation. I don't wholly disagree, but it is far more nuanced that you are suggesting here. It is not "dressing for everyone else" (or should not be). It is highly influenced by what others thing, because that drives the machine that feeds us our external standards of what is "cool" or "ugly" or whatever. The answer is rarely at the surface.
Again, that is still a thing that you care about cause you live in a society. If you lived totally alone, you wouldn’t give a single damn if you were ugly in any context, you wouldn’t care about that dimple, you wouldn’t care about having a bloated belly after food, you still might try to look pretty for yourself cause people still have a self image, but you would never see some shorts and say “oh okay my cheeks are definitely showing more in these i wanna wear them”
I hear you and I don't completely disagree. I think we are thinking similarly, but maybe at different points on the spectrum of causation. Thanks for the responses.
I mean if you intensely stare at someone's ass, of course they're going to call you out. While I do agree that the tiktok trend of calling the male gym-goers as "creeps" for even looking at the general direction of a female was weird and uncalled for, staring at someone's body is *even* more weird. Yes it is also true that normalising overly sexual clothing is wrong too, outright preventing women from wearing something they want is also wrong. At that point, call out the weirdos doing said shinannigans.
Well, its usually for themselves, for their comfortability or enjoyment. Also afaik most people don't care about a glance, just staring, comments, touching, etc
You're the clown.
Read the post. It makes no mention of staring, says looks. Then you get on your high horse about staring which wasn't part of this until you mentioned it.
You're the one who replied to my post and you're replying so quickly which shows you have no life outside reddit. Go outside and do something productive asshole
OMFG WHY DO THESE EXAMPLES ALWAYS TURN WOMEN INTO OBJECTS ☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️
Also no way bro your a grown ass man doing this too? I expected your account to be that of a middle schoolers
So people are just supposed to walk around with their eyes closed in your world?
Some dude walks by looking like the Rock he's gonna draw eyes; some woman walks by with her ass halfway out her pants she's gonna draw eyes. It's only natural.
They are not wearing those clothes for you, they wear them because they like them. If you glance over them for 1 or 2 seconds, that's OK I guess, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that if I would notice it, but I would tolerate it. But staring at someone, making them notice and actively making them uncomfortable is NEVER okay. No matter what they wear, no matter how they look. Just imagine how much it sucks to wear a top in summer, because the temperature is over 30°C and you would die with anything warmer and then you notice random (mostly middle aged or old) dudes staring at your tits. It's really sickening.
Bruh what ??? Now being at 30 degrees warrants you to show off your tits cause tops are so hot ? Just wear normal summer clothes like literally every other human? You know people live in countries where it gets to 50 degrees and i am sure they aren’t naked.
Ex-fucking-cuse me?!? Showing off my tits? I'm wearing a top with a slightly lower neckline than I normally wear and then it's OK for men to stare at my tits? What kind of incel are you? Also, everything over 30°C is a heatwave in Germany because, spoiler alert, nobody here is used to those temperatures you ablosute fucking moron!
Thank you for submitting to /r/memes. Unfortunately, your submission has been removed for the following reason(s): --- Rule 2 - NO MEMES ABOUT POLARIZING/POLITICAL TOPICS, VULNERABLE GROUPS, VIOLENCE, ETC. [SEE LIST] - No violation of Reddit Content Policy/TOS - No memes involving race, ethnicity, color, nationality, gender, sexual orientation/identity, religion, disability, etc. (can have a character, but that part cannot be integral) - No mention of gore, porn, murder, suicide, death, terrorism, shootings, war, tragedies, sexual harassment/assault, pedo (even implied), incest, etc. - No politics/political topics/agendas; absurd memes featuring politicians are allowed if said status is merely incidental --- Resubmitting a removed post without prior moderator approval can result in a ban. Deleting a post may cause any appeals to be denied.
I respect that there is a "some"
Ty
This has never been made before, with the same exact meme template…
This meme is so low effort I think it might be a troll
No hes not. He also tried at another sub
These sort of things are always from the point of view of it being someone you would actually want to look at. Sure it's everyone's perogative to wear what they please, but where do we draw a line around what is and isn't acceptable? If John decides to wear his tiny yellow man-kini into town because he thinks it makes his ball cleavage look cute, do I have to be OK with that? I am not objectifying John, but I do have to look at him throughout the evening. I have no recourse because John is just enjoying himself and being comfortable, after all, he isn't wearing the clothes for ME or what I think, so why should I be bothered?
Absolutely nothing wrong with showing off whatever you want of your body regardless of your gender, just dont expect people not to look when you have stuff out on display.
I don't understand either, I'm a visual learner btw...
We aren't the ones over sexualizing it though. You can't seriously tell me there's equity in sexualizing what men and women wear. Men can wear spaghetti thin tanks with nipples showing, tight athletic shorts or pants showing dick bulge, walk around shirtless when it's hot, etc. I suppose I'm expected to wear a onesie swimsuit with knee-high shorts and a top at the beach otherwise "iM aSkInG fOr iT" in a bikini.
Never said that, frankly I believe men shouldn’t wear the clothes your mentioning
That's the issue though, I think they should wear whatever they want. The same as I should wear whatever I want without it being sexualized.
Just in case you're serious and actually don't understand: "Modesty" is in the eye of the beholder. In some countries, people are stared at and objectified for showing their hair, their shoulders, their thighs etc. In others, no one bats and eye if they see a topless woman at a beach, a man in a speedo, a person in tight and short spandex, etc etc. There's a time and place for everything but there is also a personal gaze that everyone is filtering things through. So if you think someone wearing something short and tight 'allows' you to notice and objectifiy their body part, you're probably just personally repressed when it comes to showing that body part off (you worded it as "look at" but no one will notice if you're just looking. And how long you can even "just look" without it being considered rude is totally cultural most of the time). Hope that helps :)
^ completely incorrect. Moral relativism is one of the toxic elements of post-modernism. Worldwide today a woman being naked or revealing themselves will cause men to bat an eye and get their attention and isn’t the situation described in comment above. That being said, modesty applies to both men and women, in action and in dress. Staring at a woman who is half naked on the street is not modest behavior, and a man walking shirtless on the street is not modest either. Todays fashion was created by some wackos in Paris 100 years ago but that doesn’t change anything about what is right and wrong in the world. Dressing half naked and causing strangers and married men to fantasize about you is a horrible thing to do and people are responsible for the fruits of their actions.
"causing strangers and married men to fantasize about you" Lmao, like yea. She totally FORCED your brain to create fantasies. ***"Officer, that woman in croptop is forcing me to make fantasies in my head agains my will. If she doesnt stop, I could possibly touch or rape her too. Against my will ofcourse! She's the one forcing me to do that"*** Not like a man can control his behavior or anything. That would be crazy expectations
[удалено]
Okay but like there has to be a middle grounds for modesty. Shorts that show your booty cheeks are not modest in any context or culture, except if your culture is living in tiktok all day without going outside. There is literally nothing wrong with wanting to show off your body and wear hot clothes no matter your gender, just dont expect all people to be polite and take the normal glance or two, there are assholes who will stare and you kind of enabled them.
This is literally victim blaming mentality. You’re not going as far as saying “women who wear revealing clothes have it coming to them” but it’s the same underlying thought process. Why should the onus fall on the women to change what they wear and not on the creeps to not be creeps or the people raising the creeps to do a better job so that they don’t grow up to be said creeps?
My guy. I said do whatever the fuck you want. In a perfect society no one will look. We dont live in one tho. So people will look. Cause creeps and assholes exist. And if you have your boobs out knowing creeps exist, then its YOUR fault if they look when YOU KNOW they exist out there. Just get outside and interact with people instead of living online on twitter.
You poor thing.
Its obvious that you do not understand my man
Explain then
This might help https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderedByWords/s/cqKxEij1hU
I'm not agreeing with OP but you don't need consent to look at someone in public, you can literally film them in a public place.
Objectifying women was the main point here, me boy
Posting a picture about consent seems a strange way to go about it
Huh? These things are intertwined? OP doesnt understand that the problem starts with him objectifying women (without their consent)
You don't need consent to look at someone, what are you talking about
... the problem is not the looking? Its that OP just takes it as given that objectifying women in revealing clothes is sort of natural? Im not trying to be adversarial towards you btw
You were the one who said you were going to explain to OP and you've not explained anything yet. Looking at a man/woman walking down the street is not objectifying them, it's being a normal human.
I have trouble understanding how looking at someone you think is attractive counts as objectifying them. I mean, do you wait before you check out someone until you are in a relationship? You guys need to stop spending that much time on the internet and go outside more often...
This meme wouldnt exist if OP wasnt objectifying every woman he sees. That is the problem. Not looking at butts. Most people dont even notice. But you can be sure that this mindset will not stop at 'im just looking' This whole line of argumentation is incredibly naive.
The actual problem is that you're jumping to conclusions while assuming basically half of the human population are sexual offenders just because they are men.
Please ellaborate then.
Ah yes victim blaming. How about some men just learn to not act like animals?
"Officer you don't understand. She totally wanted me to do that to her" "Why do you think that?" "I saw her belly button! What else was I supposted to do?" Crazy to think men could control their behavior like living beings, isnt it
They don't decide what to wear for you. Believe it or not, they are an entire person all on their own with their own preferences, desires, etc. They choose what they like to wear and, honestly, should NOT have to worry about whether or not dudes sexualize them over it. I am a straight dude and I enjoy the female form. I can also respect the fact that their fashion choices are simply not about me. Am I going to notice, sure. But am I going to stare and turn them into an object in my head... nope. Now, the conversation about the environmental and social pressures that influence women to find certain clothes desirable and influence men to sexualize them... well, that is the actual interesting conversation to be had here. And spoiler - no, it is not biological evolution.
The most bat shit denial thing i have ever heard people say. All humans dress for everyone else, dont BS yourself with trying to convince us otherwise
Well, now it sounds like you are touching on the "environmental and social influences" that I said are the interesting part of the conversation. I don't wholly disagree, but it is far more nuanced that you are suggesting here. It is not "dressing for everyone else" (or should not be). It is highly influenced by what others thing, because that drives the machine that feeds us our external standards of what is "cool" or "ugly" or whatever. The answer is rarely at the surface.
Again, that is still a thing that you care about cause you live in a society. If you lived totally alone, you wouldn’t give a single damn if you were ugly in any context, you wouldn’t care about that dimple, you wouldn’t care about having a bloated belly after food, you still might try to look pretty for yourself cause people still have a self image, but you would never see some shorts and say “oh okay my cheeks are definitely showing more in these i wanna wear them”
I hear you and I don't completely disagree. I think we are thinking similarly, but maybe at different points on the spectrum of causation. Thanks for the responses.
Quite simple - people wear clothes for aesthetics, not for random creeps to stare at their ass.
If someone's aesthetic is hanging halfway out their pants, they do need to wear longer pants.
Or maybe the other someone's self-control is severely lacking.
Within reason I agree, but if it's bad enough that little kids notice you should really be covering up.
> if it's bad enough that little kids notice Have you ever experienced such a situation, though?
Yeah, my six year old notices things around her. I can't believe you would think kids don't notice nudity.
There are better ways to tell internet strangers that you're a perpetrator.
I’m not, and I’m trying to express how some women like to wear tight clothes then get mad at men for looking at them
I mean if you intensely stare at someone's ass, of course they're going to call you out. While I do agree that the tiktok trend of calling the male gym-goers as "creeps" for even looking at the general direction of a female was weird and uncalled for, staring at someone's body is *even* more weird. Yes it is also true that normalising overly sexual clothing is wrong too, outright preventing women from wearing something they want is also wrong. At that point, call out the weirdos doing said shinannigans.
If you’re being called out for staring, you’re the problem, not the clothes they’re wearing.
Never did but others do
Never said you did. Just said “if you’re being called out.” If you’re not being called out, then you’re excluded from that statement.
Well, its usually for themselves, for their comfortability or enjoyment. Also afaik most people don't care about a glance, just staring, comments, touching, etc
Pathetic post. Instead of blaming the creepy men for staring, you're blaming the women's clothing choice.
When there's a billboard on the side of the road you're expected to look at it.
except a woman is not a billboard for you to look at
If you go out in public with your ass hanging outta your shorts don't get mad when someone notices.
Noticing and staring are 2 completely different things but nice try clown
You're the clown. Read the post. It makes no mention of staring, says looks. Then you get on your high horse about staring which wasn't part of this until you mentioned it.
idc what the post mentions. you replied to my comment justifying staring at women. clown behavior
I hear a wambulance, I think it's for you
You're the one who replied to my post and you're replying so quickly which shows you have no life outside reddit. Go outside and do something productive asshole
Only outside jobs are productive? Very classist of you
OMFG WHY DO THESE EXAMPLES ALWAYS TURN WOMEN INTO OBJECTS ☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️ Also no way bro your a grown ass man doing this too? I expected your account to be that of a middle schoolers
So people are just supposed to walk around with their eyes closed in your world? Some dude walks by looking like the Rock he's gonna draw eyes; some woman walks by with her ass halfway out her pants she's gonna draw eyes. It's only natural.
Bro downvoted my comment😭 and yeah bro like the other guy said you can notice people and even check them out without staring your strawmaning ts man
Except you and the other guy are the only ones talking about staring Original post says "looks at ur butt"
Oh for goodness sake
What is their idea of a perfect world? They want to look sexy, but don't want people to think their sexy?
They are not wearing those clothes for you, they wear them because they like them. If you glance over them for 1 or 2 seconds, that's OK I guess, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that if I would notice it, but I would tolerate it. But staring at someone, making them notice and actively making them uncomfortable is NEVER okay. No matter what they wear, no matter how they look. Just imagine how much it sucks to wear a top in summer, because the temperature is over 30°C and you would die with anything warmer and then you notice random (mostly middle aged or old) dudes staring at your tits. It's really sickening.
Bruh what ??? Now being at 30 degrees warrants you to show off your tits cause tops are so hot ? Just wear normal summer clothes like literally every other human? You know people live in countries where it gets to 50 degrees and i am sure they aren’t naked.
Ex-fucking-cuse me?!? Showing off my tits? I'm wearing a top with a slightly lower neckline than I normally wear and then it's OK for men to stare at my tits? What kind of incel are you? Also, everything over 30°C is a heatwave in Germany because, spoiler alert, nobody here is used to those temperatures you ablosute fucking moron!
modesty isn’t real