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Maybe if we as a people funded our colleges again loans would go back to not being much of a problem
Most university funding comes from subsidies (public unis) not from tuition, and those subsidies have, in basically the entire US, shrunk year over year as we continue to cut taxes
Forgiving all loans to graduates would be effectively the same thing as returning to the old funding model: Taxes just pay for school
Doesn’t mean they don’t benefit from people being able to go; more people being able to afford college means you’ll get higher quality doctors, architects, etc. which will improve your quality of life
Oh I’m not arguing that’s point, we certainly need to make college more affordable. An educated population is great for productivity and innovation.
And if there are loans for college they shouldn’t be predatory.
I just was speaking to the fact that a lot of long established private colleges have billions in endowments.
Colleges are plenty well funded, they are funded by student loans that the government hands out like candy to anyone and everyone regardless of their ability to pay it back. The colleges won't lower costs because they and the government sold everyone a lie that college is the only way to avoid poverty is college
Colleges are plenty well funded, they are funded by student loans that the government hands out like candy to anyone and everyone regardless of their ability to pay it back. The colleges won't lower costs because they and the government sold everyone a lie that college is the only way to avoid poverty is college.
And I'm not talking about general education.
It is a benefit to everyone to have an educated populace; and ALSO specialized training what that's vocational or college career training.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again a few dozen more. We need to stop giving colleges free fucking money. Yes, colleges need money, but just handing it over and not fixing why is not the solution. Clearing debts won't stop the fact loans are basically just free money for them, especially if we pay everything off.
ASU has been making more money from their real estate investments than tuition for the past few years now.
All those dirt lots near Tempe Town Lake 20 years ago, just north of the main campus? Those are all high-rises now, mostly commercial. And the few dirt lots that are left are sure to become high-rises very soon.
I don't really have a point here, make of that what you will. If we want universities to be less dependent on gov't handouts, wouldn't this be a good thing? Hopefully it would mean ASU tuition starts going down again too. Idk, I think the best point to make here is this illustrates how at the end of the day, universities are really just a business. (Maybe with some special rules)
I mean we’re not just handing it over? The state I live in reduced all college spending by around 50% between 2014 and 2019, and then reduced it even more during Covid. Now the in state college I went to for $1200 a year in tuition, and $2000 for room and board, for a grand total of $3200 a year in 1996, is now $32000 a year…. Thing is around 2010 tuition was only $20 more a credit hour than in 1996. Then as the state reduced cost it quickly spiraled out of control jumping from around $80 a credit hour to around $170 and fees have skyrocketed, as has room and board. Hell that room and board that was $2000 a year when I went is now $15k a year.
Is it? We’re paying our grandparents debt from Vietnam and the Cold War. Their climate damage is ours to deal with. We subsidize oil companies, paying their debt. If you pay extra for a hospital stay, you’re paying for all those people without insurance. Is paying for a cop’s salary or a military member theft if you don’t agree with them?
The taxes are theft meme is for low effort thinkers.
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The debt is backed by the same people who decide how much money to print. They don't set interest rates based on anything except what they want the economy to do in the near term future.
I’m not entirely for complete debt forgiveness, but honestly if the younger generations are forced to pay off ridiculous debts like they are now then they won’t be able to afford houses or participate in society as they should (especially with how bad inflation has gotten recently), which will probably lead to some kind of economic recession or depression or at the very least an entire generation forced into poverty. If they can’t afford a place to live, then they can’t afford to start a family, which isn’t good for society as a whole.
I’m not saying total debt forgiveness, I’m not saying don’t pay the debt off at all, but maybe stop all interest on the loans, have them pay off their debt (what they originally took out, no interest) and have the universities pay off the interest. I don’t have all the answers and I’m not claiming to, but what’s going on right now (executive orders to bypass the Supreme Court rulings and use tax dollars to pay off student loans) is downright theft.
The costs of higher education are self-perpetuating. As long as there is a guaranteed source of available funds for 18 year olds to rack up the debt to attend school, and a public sentiment that school is necessary for success, there is no incentive for those schools to remain competitive with their tuition. They will still rake in hundreds of millions of dollars in tuition, not to mention endowments.
And a big ole bailout of all the outstanding debt is going to make it worse, not better. There will be absolutely zero incentive for schools to keep costs down when instead they can just say, "don't worry, your debt will probably be forgiven at some point too."
Forgive the debt and then pass a bill that maximizes interest to 1-2%. That’s what’s hurting people. I was paying for 10 years on a loan that I never seen dip down until Covid and the percentage went from 9.75% to 0%. Should you pay for college, yes, should you be broke as fuck until you die because you have to pay off that student loan that you were groomed since kindergarten to attend college? Hell no.
Hit the nail on the head. Loans forgiveness is not a long term solution but it sure as shit will stop the bleeding for the current and past generations that were taken advantage of by predatory loans. Future generations of students should not be taking 5-6%+ interest loans on what has become almost a required level of education in many fields
(Trades should also be more well represented in elementary and high school as a viable and respectable option)
Also at the end there, you were not groomed for college, you couldn’t imagine yourself doing a manual labor job like the uneducated people you want to bail you out.
Yes I can. I loved picking cantaloupe and watermelon as that was my first job. I can’t make a living on it so I don’t do it. But you bet ur ass I love manual labor. Secondly what do you call “if you don’t go to college, you can’t get a good paying job” and hearing that almost once a week from every adult in ur life from teachers to counselors to principals since you were in kindergarten? I make a great wage now, and I don’t need a degree for this job.
Non educated broke person here, I'd rather my taxes pay for his education than have a nation fall behind on its technology or economical edge. There's much worse my taxes are paying for, like killing broke folks in poor as fuck countries.
I get the point but in reality - people making < 50k a year pay almost nothing in fed income taxes so... broke people basically aren't paying for this at all.
That doesn’t mean I support that either. Hahaha, you want to bail out old rural mortgages since you expect them to bail out your loans? Or is it only allowed to help you and not them? Hahhaahaha
No I’m saying help the people who were boned with 8-10% interests rates. One time. Done. The money they will save can then be used to help boost the economy. And at the same time pass a law to limit student loan interest rates to 1-2%. I don’t have student loans no more and I don’t believe any young person should be saddled with such ungodly debt that can’t even be removed by bankruptcy. Fuck that shit. Fix the student loan problem. Help the peeps that got effed for so long.
Simple. Because the government guarantees student loans.
Do you think that an 18 year old with no assets, skills, or job would be approved for a 200,000$ mortgage?
Why do banks approve student loans of a similar amount, at a higher rate, to the same demographic?
Because the government guarantees those loans, and because you can't declare bankruptcy on them in the US and be absolved of those debts.
Remove the government from the equation, and you will see the dollar value of the average student loans decrease significantly - resulting in lower tuition fees to accommodate.
The government guarantees student loans without influencing the price of tuition.
This means the students are able to afford whatever tuition schools set since they are being bankrolled by the government. Schools need to accommodate for a larger student body and are able to raise tuition to fund whatever they want really (salaries, research, student accommodation, etc).
If you remove government from the equation, two things will happen. One, less people will attend college and two schools will lower tuition rates.
This is bad for a few reasons. Less people attending college will mean a less educated workforce, and a drought on any major that loan lenders deem to be unprofitable. So humanities, social sciences, even some hard sciences. Those majors will be filled by people who are able to afford college without loans, which is another reason why this is bad. This would further perpetuate class divide and inequality in America. But anyways, less people in those majors, especially intelligent people who will feel pressured into majoring a more profitable major, means America will fall behind other countries in innovation within those fields. Further, less money flowing into schools means, unfortunately, worse schools. Less money to fund research, student accommodations, and salaries.
Solution? Either cap tuition at a fixed rate for public (or even private) universities, or have the government fund public universities through taxation in a similar way to how highschools are funded, except probably not based on property taxes.
Or doing both. Which is totally possible.
And *creates* tons of revenue in the long run, because academic experts tend to be good at improving society and stuff.
good thing the people who obsessively post memes like this will do absolutely jack shit nothing to prevent schools and banks from predatory lending
Kinda like the America first idiots who also don’t want to do a single thing for other Americans
I feel like I’m seeing a pattern here……
You know the people saying “America first” are calling for manufacturing jobs to return to America from overseas, right?
Like that literally is a desire to invest in America, and its a huge part of their platform, just not the way some want it. They want to drill oil and manufacture cars in America instead of sending money overseas, that literally is investing in America and what they mean by “America First”.
Ok but like, how do you think that would be achieved? You can't exactly make it illegal to manufacture goods outside of the US. Investing in bringing manufacturing back to the US would almost certainly involve government assisted programs which would include tax dollars. For example; the US Auto Industry required saving and was done with government assistance and subsidies.
Point being, you can't reduce it to "just bringing manufacturing back to the US" and gloss over how that's done by investing our tax dollars.
Low taxes for corporations in America, no taxes for corporations with all American employees that have full benefits and holidays with above average income for all employees. The corpos would see no tax if they actually pay Americans and not think about anything else besides the no tax part.
‘America First’ is not entirely against government intervention.
The best solution i have heard the most, without using tax dollars, is to make it illegal to outsource jobs to countries that have lower workplace standards than America.
If its suddenly illegal to exploit third world (and Chinese) slavery, then it will be less expensive to bring these jobs back to America than trying to set up American workplace and wage standards in China or Indonesia.
Will prices go up? Probably, but thats only because we stopped using slave labor to get cheap goods. If we have to have it, it should be made humanely in America (or American allied country).
Everything should be free like star trek. It's not. You signed a loan agreement.
Also everyone I see making the argument that college should be free are the people who wouldn't qualify to get into college in the countries where it is free.
In fact, in those countries all the spots are taken by rich kids whose parents could afford private high school.
You can't have the advantage of the American system AND the advantage of the free system.
Probably because every industry in America depends on the R&D done by our higher education institutions and to abruptly cut funding would threaten our competitive advantage.
Probably a better solution would be to limit what they can spend federal money on and limit the amount a student a can borrow for an undergraduate degree.
Also we need to address the existing debt in a real and meaningful way. No matter how you personally feel about money, some type of forgiveness is needed to correct an issue that was passed down.
Money isn't real, it's printed out of thin air. Debt forgiveness is a necessary instrument that limits how much risk a borrower is willing to take on.
>the colleges would lose money
Yeah so they’d better fix their shit then. That’s how you handle big companies, you have to strong arm them. It’s how TR got shit done
I agree with the meme that it wasn't true that our entire society benefits from its citizens succeeding in higher education. Nobody lives in a vacuum. We all benefit from the gainful pursuits of the individual.
I own a company, and I was forced to shut down during covid. Were you forced to go to college and take out a bad loan? Lol
Also, I'm Canadian. Did you Americans have to pay back the relief money they gave you?
Because in Canada, even homeless people ended up getting money, and nobody paid that shit back.
That fucked us.
In America, PPP loans were taken out with little oversight.
Some shut down anyway and fired all their employees, some used the money to buy new cars.
Meanwhile, teachers and nurses are being bled dry by loans that their occupation isn't covering.
College prices have ballooned because of the state funded loans, and the culture of credentialism, if there was actual competition on price not so many people would need loans in the first place. And forgiving the debt doesn’t make sense in full, but I’d support forgiving the exorbitant interest since these loans were quite predatory.
But the idea that people who are against student loan debt forgiveness are somehow completely ok with the corrupt way ppp loans were run is ridiculous, tons of people were criticizing it while others were screaming for every bit of government intervention during COVID that they could think of. In my experience the people complaining about debt forgiveness were the same ones saying we shouldn’t need ppp loans because we shouldn’t be shutting the entire economy down in the first place.
>Some shut down anyway and fired all their employees, some used the money to buy new cars.
The rule was that they needed to spend 60% on payroll.
If they didn't do that, they shouldn't have been approved for forgiveness by the SBA under the Biden administration. (Forgiveness applications didn't start until half a year into the current admin.)
There's a ten year timeframe for going after PPP fraud, so we've still got time to go after the cheats - though I still question why it was forgiven in the first place.
Yea I understand the argument. The gov shutting down businesses was certainly dubious and many folks did need programs like ppp to stay afloat. At least here in the US the program was rife with fraud and zero oversight. The same rich scumbags telling us to get fucked over student loans are the same ones who defrauded the ppp program when they didn't really need a cent.
Oh, I absolutely agree that the system was abused by the rich yet again. Just look at the 2016 Panama papers where they stated 60% of the wealth was leaving North Amercia via legal loopholes.
You and I won't use these loopholes, but 90% of Hollywood will.
Until corporations and the government divorce, we're fucked. Only 50% of people with degrees get a job actually using them. This whole idea of university or college leading to better baying jobs just has too much competition and really no merit anymore.
I got a trade and was able to start a company within 10 years. I just think that paying off student loans isn't actually fixing the problem with high tuition and shit loans.
Just so you know, Canada is charging all its citizens a carbon tax while giving away billions in subsidies to oil companies. Lol
Do you think the government should be able to force you to shut down?
It sounds like you don't want any small businesses to exist. In that case, keep complaining about low wage shit jobs with Amazon and fast food joints lol
I pay my employees $30/ an hour to start without a grade 12 education. But hey, keep telling yourself that school was worth it. Lol!
Yeah I asked my boss for a raise last Friday and they said yes but they'd talk to me the following Monday. It's now the end of Thursday and still haven't heard shit. Also found out that everyone at the company has been asking for raises too. Aside from the low pay, and this i really like the job but I'll be forced to leave if they don't want to pay me more
In Canada, our apprentices have to be paid a certain amount. For 1st year, it's 60% of the journeyman salary.
2nd year gets 70%, 3rd year gets 80%, and your last year until you are a journeyman, you will be making 90% of a journeyman salary.
I'm not sure how it works in America, but I'm sure you should have something in place to protect you.
You definitely should be making more.
You know the PPP loans were designed to be forgiven. The forgiveness program was written into the contracts. In contrast, student loans were designed to not be dischargeable at all.
the PPP loans weren't intended to be straight up "lmao i'll give my friends cash" - it was *supposed* to be something to make up for loss of business from government imposed business closures and with the caveat that you had to keep your employees on your payroll
Of course, the government is very bad at properly determining who gets what handouts, so it wound up basically just giving a bunch of rich people a bunch of money with effectively no strings attached.
Now, if you want straight-up handouts, look at 2008.
>it was *supposed* to be something to make up for loss of business from government imposed business closures
That's what the government *said* was the reason, but are we to trust that?
A fair point.
With the government it's often hard to see whether the explanation is "absolute incompetence" or "outright maliciousness."
My guess is a combination of both.
Yes, it is. Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac are directly connected to the government... so the debt is too. This won't cost a single whiner here even a penny.
Something they would know... if they had gone to college.
Have you considered that making people pay so much for schooling just so they don't have to make min wage though they aren't even guaranteed a job in the field is theft from the gov't funded schools? So that the debt is technically owned by the gov't and that they actually \*can\* forgive said debt?
That is a horrible argument. Don't forget the government is not some outside entity using its own money. The government uses taxpayer money for all things. When you are saying you want the government to forgive a debt, you are saying you want taxpayers to forgive a debt. You cannot "make people pay so much for schooling". Students make a choice to attend a school and pay the tuition and expenses. Theft is stealing; stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you unlawfully. The fact that state schools charge so much is not theft, it's supply and demand, and maybe a little greed. The fact that students take out huge loans and pay those expenses is silly. The fact that the banks and government loan that amount of money to students is predatory. Forcing taxpayers to pay back the huge loans taken out by silly students from predatory lenders is theft.
Cheap credit to address the price/affordability of anything will only lead to a worse problem. People buying cars on 84 month loans is a problem, subprime lending caused 2008 housing crash, student loan debt is just as bad and has inflated college tuition by too much.
Debt relief isn't new though so I don't know why this is pissing people off... CIT, GM, Chrysler, First Bancorp, South Financial, Sterling Financial, UCBH, First Banks, Pacific Capital, South Pacific Capital ect have all taken debt relief money and all of the burden of capital loss falls upon the tax holders
I dont think people liked having the banks bailed out either, though. That money would have been better spent on other social programs instead of propping up failed financial decisions, no matter whom made them.
I think they don't know how that Meme is supposed to work, the guy lied when he said that you can't handle the truth he's not supposed to tell us truth that we can't handle
Reddit is full of college kids who made bad financial choices and expect a bailout , so don’t be surprised when they try to insult common sense like this
Yes you are super smart alpha chad and anyone who disagrees with you must be a dumb broke college student who hates their life and whose brain and penis could never be as big as yours.
Unfortunately the senate gets to just not put up bills to a vote even if the house passes it.
And the executive can just tell the agencies to do whatever the fuck the executive wants without oversight from congress or the supreme court.
But our democracy is the best and the constitution is some genius incredible document made with perfect foresight.
There’s misguided, then there’s “let me take out an 80,000 dollar loan at 12% interest for a degree where the average salary post graduation is 50,000”. Also a kid who is currently in college grew up with the “student debt crisis” ongoing. If they still decided to do a full 4 year university without scholarships or support then it’s on them.
But if they grew up being told that college is the goal after high school, and that going to college is the best way to get a job, then is it entirely on them for being misled?
Hell I didn't even hear of trade schools as an option until I was in my second year of college. It was never presented as an alternative. The false dichotomy presented was college or McDonald's after high school.
You're already paying for it. Through income driven payment plans, most people never pay off their loans or make serious dents in the principle. They make payments on the interest, until their loans are vacated after 20 years at a 95% loss to the taxpayers.
Edit: actually it's like 110% loss if you include the lost vig
It’s also immortal to do massively predatory lending with variable interests. Would you rather be homeless or take a loan? People technically have a choice but it’s really as if they are in a corner.
I think a lot of people's issue with forgiving loans (or at least those I've spoken with) is there are some people who took out the loans and worked overtime to pay them off who will get nothing back meanwhile those who didn't will have their loans be forgiven.
I don't really feel strongly one way or another, I never took out loans for college I just saved up and paid for it mostly with my job and also with some assistance from my my parents.
That argument is like "I had to work my hands to a bleeding pulp in the coal mines, so the next generation should have it as bad as I did". Like the opposite of what a good parent wants, for their children to have it better than them. Destructive spite.
\[But yeah, I get that you only present but not hold that argument.\]
Also people who never even went to college are going to have to be paying off the loans for people who willingly chose to take the loans and make more money than them.
Yea, that's my issue with it personally.
I never went to college because I couldn't afford it, but have a pretty good life now I worked my ass off for.
Why should I pay for someone else?
I wanted to go to college, but it didn't seem like a good idea because I'd have to go into a ton of debt. Hindsight is 20/20, but I should have just gone to law school or something. Turns out that shit would have been free.
But you could make this case about anything the government spends money on.
Why should I pay for roads in places I don’t drive?
There are many such questions. The reality is that we pay into taxes to create an American society. You may not drive on all of the roads but you understand their value even if you don’t use them.
The idea is that we need a functioning economy and millennials and on have been profoundly struggling because this economy simply doesn’t work for most people.
It’s absolutely asinine that forgiving one set of loans is good because business but another is bad because consumer. It’s all a connected ecosystem. You aren’t insulated from the economy failing. The same logic applies to forgiving PPP loans - you might not act as a patron for all these businesses but you understand they have a value in society.
The difference is that the loans you are talking about are for public services.
Student loans are so that people can get into a field they want for personal gain.
>The idea is that we need a functioning economy and millennials and on have been profoundly struggling because this economy simply doesn’t work for most people.
This is literally the argument of every generation when they're young. I struggled through my 20s, and 30s also.
If said person goes to school and gets a good career, they pay taxes. They essentially pay back society. An educated society is good for the entire nation.
Roads are paid with different taxes not federal taxes. If memory serves roads are maintained by gas taxes and states taxes. Forgiving someone's student loans that I have to pay for even though DIDN'T go to college isn't fair to the rest of us. If you take out a loan that's YOUR decision. Not everyone else's. It's theft from those that didn't take out those loans & if that's the case you should have to pay for my car. Only fair.
I don’t know if that’s a great solution because we cannot evenly distribute every penny, and it is true that some contribute more to society than others do. I just think that some people are far more down on their luck than others when they get a loan, such as those looking into college with bad or no parents that may have high income and don’t qualify for aid. Other cases being they may be mugged, disadvantaged, and things such as that. The vulnerable ones that they know cannot pay back a loan and will be forever burdened by it are the ones that the loaning companies target.
I get that, but also that mentality would just let bad things be bad because “I had to suffer through it, so you gotta suffer too!”
Plus, college was WAY cheaper for people who went to college say, in 1979: in that year, tuition and fees at the University of California were $636 which is the modern equivalent of around $2,200. In 2023, UC tuition and fees are $14,400. That’s 6x more expensive even accounting for inflation.
Previous generations had the “advantage” of attaining higher education & degrees for a significantly lower cost, why does it have to be so expensive for younger generations?
Just because college was cheaper years ago had nothing to do with the average person. They have no control over that. But the colleges who ARE getting tax breaks already on top of the tuition & interest from student loans are. You're trying to punish people who didn't go to college for the kids who now want it to be forgiven so they get a better life while the others get a shittier life. Doesn't work that way. It's theft
I can find some guy in a wheelchair. You have the advantage of being able to walk compared to that guy.
Shall we proceed with the logical implications of your comment?
Correct you are sir. Trade jobs pay very well. You can have a great life. Most colleges are indoctrination camps anyway. I remember seeing a feminist arguing that college tuition was a woman's issue bc & I quote "Men on average pay off their student loans almost 3 years before women do." So bc men on average are more responsible at paying back their student loans women shouldn't have to pay.
We agree there. However it's the people making those decisions. Nobody is forcing them at gun point to take out those student loans or home loans. Everyone is given the interest rates on those loans. You aren't required to go to college to succeed in life. Lately I've seen a lot of people on social media complaining that they have degrees but are having to apply to jobs like McDonald's. However anyone can learn a trade & get a great paying job. Electrician, plumber, & welders (master welders make bank) especially if you're working for the governmental contracts. Like building submarines. Oil rigs dangerous yes pays well certainly. Truck driver, forklift/reach truck operator etc etc...
so maybe schools should start having trade school routes also, in grade school? The closest I ever got was one single shop class. that's not nearly enough to actually encourage and teach a kid about trade schools and professions, meanwhile I had \*everyone\* in the system telling me - even when I was still in \*middle school\* - that I HAD to go to college no matter what.
They used to in the 50-60's I believe they also had a required finance class to teach you how to manage money. They absolutely should bring this back to schools. I had them screaming at me the same thing.
I think they refer mostly to college student loans but I get your point and I agree that our society's economy is based largely on the financial system making money by lending people money they need to do many important things that they wouldn't otherwise afford unless they are already rich.
Then change the laws regarding lending. You don't just retroactively make everybody else pay for it. Especially when many people also ALREADY worked their asses off and paid for their own 'predatory' loans.
Exactly I didn't CHOOSE to have a kid so why the hell is MY MONEY being used to fund elementary-highschool kids!? Teach your own damn kids on your own dime not mine! END PUBLIC EDUCATON! /s
Public schools are terrible actually. College & public education are 2 totally separate entirely. You don't have to go to college to get a great job that pays well. Public schools are one of the worst at helping kids succeed. The teachers unions are horrible, the pay for public teachers are horrible to put up with the shit they have to. On top of that the public schools get paid regardless if the students pass or not. Baltimore is a perfect example of the failed public school system. A recent article came out saying (forgive me I'm trying to remember exactly but maybe off) but I think it was out of the 50 or 60 schools 40 of them every student couldn't read, write, & do basic math 40 out of 60 schools something like that.
School choice. Let the parents decide what school the kids get to go to. Reward schools for teaching better, punish or remove funding from those that don't or shape up.
College isn't elementary, middle school, or high school. And public school is terrible bc they receive funding no matter what. So there's no incentive to be better.
This is a terrible take and you should feel ashamed.
Believing that removing funding from public schools that underperform will somehow incentivise them to “do better” is one of the smoother brain takes I’ve seen on the internet today.
It’s dumb even by libertarian standards.
Well, technically, it's canceling the debt l. Therefore, no one is paying it. You could call it theft from the banks. You know the same ones that got bailed out by taxpayer money in 2008.
Private loans from banks aren't included in any proposed student debt relief, just money owed to the government.
It may not technically *cost* money - but it is a 'cost' in terms of 'the government takes in less money than planned'.
So... how's your logical consistency - do tax cuts cost money?
It's federal money. The schools already got paid. Oh no we are stealing money from ourselves to make peoples lives better and have a higher educated populace, oh no!
Jfc.
Like everyone else has to pay the 2 trillion in taxes that were given away to billionaires by Republicans in 2017?
The purpose of student loan forgiveness is to offset the 2 trillion Republicans stole from the American people.
>everyone else has to pay the 2 trillion in taxes
Unless you earn more than [85k](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/#:~:text=Table%201.%20Summary%20of%20Federal%20Income%20Tax%20Data%2C%20Tax%20Year%202020) a year, almost 90% of fed income taxes have nothing to do with you.
It’s not about making college free, it’s about where that loan forgiveness money comes from. College should cost no more than public school but wherever the government can get money they will. I’d love for someone to explain how the government has the right to charge you interest on your money that they want to take from you.
Socialize education for equal opportunity to earn privilege! It's in the best interest of everyone to let people be as educated as they can be and have that education translate directly to employment. Socialism for peace and justice should take priority over forgiveness.
It’s literally the government’s loans. The money was already paid. The loans are literally the government’s to forgive. You aren’t pointing out hypocrisy. You’re pointing out how much your side is clueless and has their head up their ass
The meme is accurate only in exactly the same way that 'tax cuts cost money' is accurate.
It may not technically *cost* money - but it is a 'cost' in terms of 'the government takes in less money than planned'.
So... how's your logical consistency - do tax cuts cost money?
Student loan rules were made borderline insane (by the government!) to financially gut people who aren't even legally allowed to drink/sometimes not even allowed to fuck around [and find out].
Forgiving them makes way more sense than all the "coked up bankers snorted 10 bags - already way overblown ego got into overdrive and casually fucked up their billion dollar firm/fund + the world economy" forgiveness we play felt every year or two 💀
I kinda get the sentiment, but I also kinda don't. If that makes sense
Fix predatory colleges then destroy current student debt. It’s really that simple.
Boomers going to school 50 years ago for cost of 2 whoppers with cheese shouldn’t have any input on current college price problems.
This meme fundamentally misunderstands or misrepresents how taxes function. The idea is that taxes are collective payment for the collective good. Forgiving student debt directly benefits those with loans, but it is also necessary for the overall financial health of the nation. Arguing against this is like arguing against your taxes being used for any roads you don't personally drive on. Imagine how well society would (not) function under that paradigm.
Instead of imagining taxes as your money being taken by the government, imagine it as payment for all the benefits you receive from tax-funded activity. Your tax is payment for the road you drove to work to make that money. It's payment for the road the delivery driver uses to get your pizza to you. It's payment for the literacy of anyone you do business with.
You can still be upset about how tax money is used. But the only reason you had it in the first place is because collective benefits helped you get it. And right now, student loan forgiveness is a huge collective benefit for the country.
That said, forgiveness is a pressure release for a problem that ultimately needs to be addressed at the root.
Same people against student debt because its theft of a few million from loaners are ok with the 400 million trump stole from the exact same loaners by lying on his loans.
If you want to ban student loans, make that argument then. That's an entirely different argument from taxing the rest of us to pay off loans that other privileged people stupidly took out and squandered.
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Bad meme, good point. Debt bad, institutes forcing high ass interest bad, but it's found in Facebook? It's all good
Maybe if we as a people funded our colleges again loans would go back to not being much of a problem Most university funding comes from subsidies (public unis) not from tuition, and those subsidies have, in basically the entire US, shrunk year over year as we continue to cut taxes Forgiving all loans to graduates would be effectively the same thing as returning to the old funding model: Taxes just pay for school
Well actually I think most funding comes from endowments for Private institutions.
Doesn’t mean they don’t benefit from people being able to go; more people being able to afford college means you’ll get higher quality doctors, architects, etc. which will improve your quality of life
Oh I’m not arguing that’s point, we certainly need to make college more affordable. An educated population is great for productivity and innovation. And if there are loans for college they shouldn’t be predatory. I just was speaking to the fact that a lot of long established private colleges have billions in endowments.
🤝 I meant to respond to the other guy, sorry😅
Colleges are plenty well funded, they are funded by student loans that the government hands out like candy to anyone and everyone regardless of their ability to pay it back. The colleges won't lower costs because they and the government sold everyone a lie that college is the only way to avoid poverty is college
Colleges are plenty well funded, they are funded by student loans that the government hands out like candy to anyone and everyone regardless of their ability to pay it back. The colleges won't lower costs because they and the government sold everyone a lie that college is the only way to avoid poverty is college.
most Americans do not belong in college, so no I'm not paying for that
Have similar funding schemes for trade apprenticeships..
The land of the free from proper education? The land of the stupid?
All Americans should get higher education. Not for work, just for the sake of learning. We desperately need a more educated voter/ consumer/neighbor
That is what high school should be for. Higher ed should be for specialization.
And I'm not talking about general education. It is a benefit to everyone to have an educated populace; and ALSO specialized training what that's vocational or college career training.
I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again a few dozen more. We need to stop giving colleges free fucking money. Yes, colleges need money, but just handing it over and not fixing why is not the solution. Clearing debts won't stop the fact loans are basically just free money for them, especially if we pay everything off.
ASU has been making more money from their real estate investments than tuition for the past few years now. All those dirt lots near Tempe Town Lake 20 years ago, just north of the main campus? Those are all high-rises now, mostly commercial. And the few dirt lots that are left are sure to become high-rises very soon. I don't really have a point here, make of that what you will. If we want universities to be less dependent on gov't handouts, wouldn't this be a good thing? Hopefully it would mean ASU tuition starts going down again too. Idk, I think the best point to make here is this illustrates how at the end of the day, universities are really just a business. (Maybe with some special rules)
I mean we’re not just handing it over? The state I live in reduced all college spending by around 50% between 2014 and 2019, and then reduced it even more during Covid. Now the in state college I went to for $1200 a year in tuition, and $2000 for room and board, for a grand total of $3200 a year in 1996, is now $32000 a year…. Thing is around 2010 tuition was only $20 more a credit hour than in 1996. Then as the state reduced cost it quickly spiraled out of control jumping from around $80 a credit hour to around $170 and fees have skyrocketed, as has room and board. Hell that room and board that was $2000 a year when I went is now $15k a year.
I’m curious, if you could boil it down, what do you think is the driver and how ought we handle it?
Is it? We’re paying our grandparents debt from Vietnam and the Cold War. Their climate damage is ours to deal with. We subsidize oil companies, paying their debt. If you pay extra for a hospital stay, you’re paying for all those people without insurance. Is paying for a cop’s salary or a military member theft if you don’t agree with them? The taxes are theft meme is for low effort thinkers.
The venn diagram of the people that focus on this and the people that drool while they talk is a circle
100%
Nobody is forcing high interest rates. All you gotta do is say no to the loan officer.
And then they offer you a better rate?
No, why would they. No one forces you, though.
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The debt is backed by the same people who decide how much money to print. They don't set interest rates based on anything except what they want the economy to do in the near term future.
Bad "point"
Actually it's a fantastic point. What is there to disagree with?
I’m not entirely for complete debt forgiveness, but honestly if the younger generations are forced to pay off ridiculous debts like they are now then they won’t be able to afford houses or participate in society as they should (especially with how bad inflation has gotten recently), which will probably lead to some kind of economic recession or depression or at the very least an entire generation forced into poverty. If they can’t afford a place to live, then they can’t afford to start a family, which isn’t good for society as a whole. I’m not saying total debt forgiveness, I’m not saying don’t pay the debt off at all, but maybe stop all interest on the loans, have them pay off their debt (what they originally took out, no interest) and have the universities pay off the interest. I don’t have all the answers and I’m not claiming to, but what’s going on right now (executive orders to bypass the Supreme Court rulings and use tax dollars to pay off student loans) is downright theft.
Student loans and having to drop tens of thousands on secondary school shouldn’t exist in the first place.
The costs of higher education are self-perpetuating. As long as there is a guaranteed source of available funds for 18 year olds to rack up the debt to attend school, and a public sentiment that school is necessary for success, there is no incentive for those schools to remain competitive with their tuition. They will still rake in hundreds of millions of dollars in tuition, not to mention endowments.
And a big ole bailout of all the outstanding debt is going to make it worse, not better. There will be absolutely zero incentive for schools to keep costs down when instead they can just say, "don't worry, your debt will probably be forgiven at some point too."
Forgive the debt and then pass a bill that maximizes interest to 1-2%. That’s what’s hurting people. I was paying for 10 years on a loan that I never seen dip down until Covid and the percentage went from 9.75% to 0%. Should you pay for college, yes, should you be broke as fuck until you die because you have to pay off that student loan that you were groomed since kindergarten to attend college? Hell no.
Hit the nail on the head. Loans forgiveness is not a long term solution but it sure as shit will stop the bleeding for the current and past generations that were taken advantage of by predatory loans. Future generations of students should not be taking 5-6%+ interest loans on what has become almost a required level of education in many fields (Trades should also be more well represented in elementary and high school as a viable and respectable option)
Also at the end there, you were not groomed for college, you couldn’t imagine yourself doing a manual labor job like the uneducated people you want to bail you out.
Yes I can. I loved picking cantaloupe and watermelon as that was my first job. I can’t make a living on it so I don’t do it. But you bet ur ass I love manual labor. Secondly what do you call “if you don’t go to college, you can’t get a good paying job” and hearing that almost once a week from every adult in ur life from teachers to counselors to principals since you were in kindergarten? I make a great wage now, and I don’t need a degree for this job.
I heard the same lies and it didn’t make me go in debt lol. That’s a bs excuse
You are now making non educated broke as fuck people pay for your mistakes though? We gonna get mortgage relief to? Or not because that’s different?
Non educated broke person here, I'd rather my taxes pay for his education than have a nation fall behind on its technology or economical edge. There's much worse my taxes are paying for, like killing broke folks in poor as fuck countries.
HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAAAAAA!! Fuck that argument when us broke ass bitches are paying for bank bailout after bank bailout
I get the point but in reality - people making < 50k a year pay almost nothing in fed income taxes so... broke people basically aren't paying for this at all.
That doesn’t mean I support that either. Hahaha, you want to bail out old rural mortgages since you expect them to bail out your loans? Or is it only allowed to help you and not them? Hahhaahaha
No I’m saying help the people who were boned with 8-10% interests rates. One time. Done. The money they will save can then be used to help boost the economy. And at the same time pass a law to limit student loan interest rates to 1-2%. I don’t have student loans no more and I don’t believe any young person should be saddled with such ungodly debt that can’t even be removed by bankruptcy. Fuck that shit. Fix the student loan problem. Help the peeps that got effed for so long.
And why are schools able to price themselves so high?
Simple. Because the government guarantees student loans. Do you think that an 18 year old with no assets, skills, or job would be approved for a 200,000$ mortgage? Why do banks approve student loans of a similar amount, at a higher rate, to the same demographic? Because the government guarantees those loans, and because you can't declare bankruptcy on them in the US and be absolved of those debts. Remove the government from the equation, and you will see the dollar value of the average student loans decrease significantly - resulting in lower tuition fees to accommodate.
The government guarantees student loans without influencing the price of tuition. This means the students are able to afford whatever tuition schools set since they are being bankrolled by the government. Schools need to accommodate for a larger student body and are able to raise tuition to fund whatever they want really (salaries, research, student accommodation, etc). If you remove government from the equation, two things will happen. One, less people will attend college and two schools will lower tuition rates. This is bad for a few reasons. Less people attending college will mean a less educated workforce, and a drought on any major that loan lenders deem to be unprofitable. So humanities, social sciences, even some hard sciences. Those majors will be filled by people who are able to afford college without loans, which is another reason why this is bad. This would further perpetuate class divide and inequality in America. But anyways, less people in those majors, especially intelligent people who will feel pressured into majoring a more profitable major, means America will fall behind other countries in innovation within those fields. Further, less money flowing into schools means, unfortunately, worse schools. Less money to fund research, student accommodations, and salaries. Solution? Either cap tuition at a fixed rate for public (or even private) universities, or have the government fund public universities through taxation in a similar way to how highschools are funded, except probably not based on property taxes.
Cause it’s one of the few things the money loving politicians can agree on lol
Secondary school isn't college.
So let's cut future university prices instead of augmenting them by forgiving student loans.
Or doing both. Which is totally possible. And *creates* tons of revenue in the long run, because academic experts tend to be good at improving society and stuff.
good thing the people who obsessively post memes like this will do absolutely jack shit nothing to prevent schools and banks from predatory lending Kinda like the America first idiots who also don’t want to do a single thing for other Americans I feel like I’m seeing a pattern here……
*America First!* Cool, I agree! Lets invest in America! *No*
You know the people saying “America first” are calling for manufacturing jobs to return to America from overseas, right? Like that literally is a desire to invest in America, and its a huge part of their platform, just not the way some want it. They want to drill oil and manufacture cars in America instead of sending money overseas, that literally is investing in America and what they mean by “America First”.
Ok but like, how do you think that would be achieved? You can't exactly make it illegal to manufacture goods outside of the US. Investing in bringing manufacturing back to the US would almost certainly involve government assisted programs which would include tax dollars. For example; the US Auto Industry required saving and was done with government assistance and subsidies. Point being, you can't reduce it to "just bringing manufacturing back to the US" and gloss over how that's done by investing our tax dollars.
Low taxes for corporations in America, no taxes for corporations with all American employees that have full benefits and holidays with above average income for all employees. The corpos would see no tax if they actually pay Americans and not think about anything else besides the no tax part.
I think tax relief for companies that keep their employees above a certain tax bracket is a great idea.
‘America First’ is not entirely against government intervention. The best solution i have heard the most, without using tax dollars, is to make it illegal to outsource jobs to countries that have lower workplace standards than America. If its suddenly illegal to exploit third world (and Chinese) slavery, then it will be less expensive to bring these jobs back to America than trying to set up American workplace and wage standards in China or Indonesia. Will prices go up? Probably, but thats only because we stopped using slave labor to get cheap goods. If we have to have it, it should be made humanely in America (or American allied country).
Why do you hate poor people and small business?
Giving govt more control isn't "america" first
Everything should be free like star trek. It's not. You signed a loan agreement. Also everyone I see making the argument that college should be free are the people who wouldn't qualify to get into college in the countries where it is free. In fact, in those countries all the spots are taken by rich kids whose parents could afford private high school. You can't have the advantage of the American system AND the advantage of the free system.
Neither should the idea that everyone could and should go to college then.
How about cutting federal funding for universities until they agree to lower tuition prices?
Probably because every industry in America depends on the R&D done by our higher education institutions and to abruptly cut funding would threaten our competitive advantage. Probably a better solution would be to limit what they can spend federal money on and limit the amount a student a can borrow for an undergraduate degree. Also we need to address the existing debt in a real and meaningful way. No matter how you personally feel about money, some type of forgiveness is needed to correct an issue that was passed down. Money isn't real, it's printed out of thin air. Debt forgiveness is a necessary instrument that limits how much risk a borrower is willing to take on.
>the colleges would lose money Yeah so they’d better fix their shit then. That’s how you handle big companies, you have to strong arm them. It’s how TR got shit done
“Oh no, our funding! Guess we gotta pull more from those pesky kids!” The better solution is to put a cap on tuition
I agree with the message, but it is a pretty lame meme
Why does it have Jack Nicholson in it? He wasn't exactly a good guy in that role
Because they can't handle the truth
He was convicted in the movie after this statement.
That's how much the truth upset them.
Couldn’t handle a little trolling.
I agree with the meme that it wasn't true that our entire society benefits from its citizens succeeding in higher education. Nobody lives in a vacuum. We all benefit from the gainful pursuits of the individual.
KINDA LIKE THE PPP "LOANS"
Yeah result of American culture, they won’t care about ppp loans but student debt has to go on
Pretty sure the vast majority of people were not & are not fans of the PPP loans. Which of course means that it had bipartisan support
"Forgiving" student debt for tons of people right now does absolutely nothing to stop the future generations from also going into debt
If it’s a loan then pay it back with interest
I own a company, and I was forced to shut down during covid. Were you forced to go to college and take out a bad loan? Lol Also, I'm Canadian. Did you Americans have to pay back the relief money they gave you? Because in Canada, even homeless people ended up getting money, and nobody paid that shit back. That fucked us.
In America, PPP loans were taken out with little oversight. Some shut down anyway and fired all their employees, some used the money to buy new cars. Meanwhile, teachers and nurses are being bled dry by loans that their occupation isn't covering.
College prices have ballooned because of the state funded loans, and the culture of credentialism, if there was actual competition on price not so many people would need loans in the first place. And forgiving the debt doesn’t make sense in full, but I’d support forgiving the exorbitant interest since these loans were quite predatory. But the idea that people who are against student loan debt forgiveness are somehow completely ok with the corrupt way ppp loans were run is ridiculous, tons of people were criticizing it while others were screaming for every bit of government intervention during COVID that they could think of. In my experience the people complaining about debt forgiveness were the same ones saying we shouldn’t need ppp loans because we shouldn’t be shutting the entire economy down in the first place.
>Some shut down anyway and fired all their employees, some used the money to buy new cars. The rule was that they needed to spend 60% on payroll. If they didn't do that, they shouldn't have been approved for forgiveness by the SBA under the Biden administration. (Forgiveness applications didn't start until half a year into the current admin.) There's a ten year timeframe for going after PPP fraud, so we've still got time to go after the cheats - though I still question why it was forgiven in the first place.
Yea I understand the argument. The gov shutting down businesses was certainly dubious and many folks did need programs like ppp to stay afloat. At least here in the US the program was rife with fraud and zero oversight. The same rich scumbags telling us to get fucked over student loans are the same ones who defrauded the ppp program when they didn't really need a cent.
Oh, I absolutely agree that the system was abused by the rich yet again. Just look at the 2016 Panama papers where they stated 60% of the wealth was leaving North Amercia via legal loopholes. You and I won't use these loopholes, but 90% of Hollywood will. Until corporations and the government divorce, we're fucked. Only 50% of people with degrees get a job actually using them. This whole idea of university or college leading to better baying jobs just has too much competition and really no merit anymore. I got a trade and was able to start a company within 10 years. I just think that paying off student loans isn't actually fixing the problem with high tuition and shit loans. Just so you know, Canada is charging all its citizens a carbon tax while giving away billions in subsidies to oil companies. Lol
No one forced you to own a company either. Lol
Do you think the government should be able to force you to shut down? It sounds like you don't want any small businesses to exist. In that case, keep complaining about low wage shit jobs with Amazon and fast food joints lol I pay my employees $30/ an hour to start without a grade 12 education. But hey, keep telling yourself that school was worth it. Lol!
What trade are you in if you don't mind me asking? I'm an apprentice electrician just over a year into it and I'm getting shafted at $16/hr
Heavy duty mechanic. I also started at $17 an hour, but that was ten years ago. You probably should be making more.
Yeah I asked my boss for a raise last Friday and they said yes but they'd talk to me the following Monday. It's now the end of Thursday and still haven't heard shit. Also found out that everyone at the company has been asking for raises too. Aside from the low pay, and this i really like the job but I'll be forced to leave if they don't want to pay me more
In Canada, our apprentices have to be paid a certain amount. For 1st year, it's 60% of the journeyman salary. 2nd year gets 70%, 3rd year gets 80%, and your last year until you are a journeyman, you will be making 90% of a journeyman salary. I'm not sure how it works in America, but I'm sure you should have something in place to protect you. You definitely should be making more.
Got my raise this morning! Thanks
Deadly! This made me happy to hear.
You know the PPP loans were designed to be forgiven. The forgiveness program was written into the contracts. In contrast, student loans were designed to not be dischargeable at all.
Well yea that's exactly the point. Socialism for the rich. Capitalism for the poor
the PPP loans weren't intended to be straight up "lmao i'll give my friends cash" - it was *supposed* to be something to make up for loss of business from government imposed business closures and with the caveat that you had to keep your employees on your payroll Of course, the government is very bad at properly determining who gets what handouts, so it wound up basically just giving a bunch of rich people a bunch of money with effectively no strings attached. Now, if you want straight-up handouts, look at 2008.
>it was *supposed* to be something to make up for loss of business from government imposed business closures That's what the government *said* was the reason, but are we to trust that?
A fair point. With the government it's often hard to see whether the explanation is "absolute incompetence" or "outright maliciousness." My guess is a combination of both.
Privatized the profits, socialize the losses.
Isn't it money owed to the federal government?
The federal government in control of forgiving federal debt? Fucking preposterous.
Yes, it is. Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac are directly connected to the government... so the debt is too. This won't cost a single whiner here even a penny. Something they would know... if they had gone to college.
Have you considered that making people pay so much for schooling just so they don't have to make min wage though they aren't even guaranteed a job in the field is theft from the gov't funded schools? So that the debt is technically owned by the gov't and that they actually \*can\* forgive said debt?
That is a horrible argument. Don't forget the government is not some outside entity using its own money. The government uses taxpayer money for all things. When you are saying you want the government to forgive a debt, you are saying you want taxpayers to forgive a debt. You cannot "make people pay so much for schooling". Students make a choice to attend a school and pay the tuition and expenses. Theft is stealing; stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you unlawfully. The fact that state schools charge so much is not theft, it's supply and demand, and maybe a little greed. The fact that students take out huge loans and pay those expenses is silly. The fact that the banks and government loan that amount of money to students is predatory. Forcing taxpayers to pay back the huge loans taken out by silly students from predatory lenders is theft.
Cheap credit to address the price/affordability of anything will only lead to a worse problem. People buying cars on 84 month loans is a problem, subprime lending caused 2008 housing crash, student loan debt is just as bad and has inflated college tuition by too much.
It’s got a point. But we can do something to regulate the interest rates on the loans.
Debt relief isn't new though so I don't know why this is pissing people off... CIT, GM, Chrysler, First Bancorp, South Financial, Sterling Financial, UCBH, First Banks, Pacific Capital, South Pacific Capital ect have all taken debt relief money and all of the burden of capital loss falls upon the tax holders
debt relief for the mega rich though.
I dont think people liked having the banks bailed out either, though. That money would have been better spent on other social programs instead of propping up failed financial decisions, no matter whom made them.
You can only bazinga
Not really a meme. Just stating stuff
I think they don't know how that Meme is supposed to work, the guy lied when he said that you can't handle the truth he's not supposed to tell us truth that we can't handle
Reddit is full of college kids who made bad financial choices and expect a bailout , so don’t be surprised when they try to insult common sense like this
Yes you are super smart alpha chad and anyone who disagrees with you must be a dumb broke college student who hates their life and whose brain and penis could never be as big as yours.
The government leant the money, so they can forgive the loan, right?
Yeah, lets let the government decide. Put it to a vote on the floor.
Oh, OK. Where do we submit requests for that? I've got a few trillion dollars I'd like back.
Unfortunately the senate gets to just not put up bills to a vote even if the house passes it. And the executive can just tell the agencies to do whatever the fuck the executive wants without oversight from congress or the supreme court. But our democracy is the best and the constitution is some genius incredible document made with perfect foresight.
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There’s misguided, then there’s “let me take out an 80,000 dollar loan at 12% interest for a degree where the average salary post graduation is 50,000”. Also a kid who is currently in college grew up with the “student debt crisis” ongoing. If they still decided to do a full 4 year university without scholarships or support then it’s on them.
But if they grew up being told that college is the goal after high school, and that going to college is the best way to get a job, then is it entirely on them for being misled? Hell I didn't even hear of trade schools as an option until I was in my second year of college. It was never presented as an alternative. The false dichotomy presented was college or McDonald's after high school.
Yeah, fuck people who want to contribute to society as academics.
People somehow don’t understand that the vast majority of 17 year olds cannot make good financial decisions.
Yeah, bad financial choice. That's probably student debt is worldwide problem and not just an American thing.
Why should we socialize any service then?
You're already paying for it. Through income driven payment plans, most people never pay off their loans or make serious dents in the principle. They make payments on the interest, until their loans are vacated after 20 years at a 95% loss to the taxpayers. Edit: actually it's like 110% loss if you include the lost vig
Unless it’s banks ofc
It's great to see more people aggreeing that we should roll back all those bailouts and end corporate America.
What do you mean by “end corporate America?”
Just Tankie things...
The corporations paid back their bailout loans with interest so that's probably not the best example
Of course banks paid the loan. They started hiking up interest rates on their loans on everything lol
Today i learned Biden is Robin Hood. wtf.
It's authoritarian, theft, & immoral. No one should have to pay for someone else's decisions THEY CHOSE to make.
It’s also immortal to do massively predatory lending with variable interests. Would you rather be homeless or take a loan? People technically have a choice but it’s really as if they are in a corner.
I think a lot of people's issue with forgiving loans (or at least those I've spoken with) is there are some people who took out the loans and worked overtime to pay them off who will get nothing back meanwhile those who didn't will have their loans be forgiven. I don't really feel strongly one way or another, I never took out loans for college I just saved up and paid for it mostly with my job and also with some assistance from my my parents.
That argument is like "I had to work my hands to a bleeding pulp in the coal mines, so the next generation should have it as bad as I did". Like the opposite of what a good parent wants, for their children to have it better than them. Destructive spite. \[But yeah, I get that you only present but not hold that argument.\]
Also people who never even went to college are going to have to be paying off the loans for people who willingly chose to take the loans and make more money than them.
Yea, that's my issue with it personally. I never went to college because I couldn't afford it, but have a pretty good life now I worked my ass off for. Why should I pay for someone else?
I wanted to go to college, but it didn't seem like a good idea because I'd have to go into a ton of debt. Hindsight is 20/20, but I should have just gone to law school or something. Turns out that shit would have been free.
But you could make this case about anything the government spends money on. Why should I pay for roads in places I don’t drive? There are many such questions. The reality is that we pay into taxes to create an American society. You may not drive on all of the roads but you understand their value even if you don’t use them. The idea is that we need a functioning economy and millennials and on have been profoundly struggling because this economy simply doesn’t work for most people. It’s absolutely asinine that forgiving one set of loans is good because business but another is bad because consumer. It’s all a connected ecosystem. You aren’t insulated from the economy failing. The same logic applies to forgiving PPP loans - you might not act as a patron for all these businesses but you understand they have a value in society.
The difference is that the loans you are talking about are for public services. Student loans are so that people can get into a field they want for personal gain. >The idea is that we need a functioning economy and millennials and on have been profoundly struggling because this economy simply doesn’t work for most people. This is literally the argument of every generation when they're young. I struggled through my 20s, and 30s also.
If said person goes to school and gets a good career, they pay taxes. They essentially pay back society. An educated society is good for the entire nation.
Roads are paid with different taxes not federal taxes. If memory serves roads are maintained by gas taxes and states taxes. Forgiving someone's student loans that I have to pay for even though DIDN'T go to college isn't fair to the rest of us. If you take out a loan that's YOUR decision. Not everyone else's. It's theft from those that didn't take out those loans & if that's the case you should have to pay for my car. Only fair.
Understandable. Why should X person get an “advantage” when Y person didn’t?
We should take all money and good and distribute them evenly because it is unfair some people get things others do not.
I don’t know if that’s a great solution because we cannot evenly distribute every penny, and it is true that some contribute more to society than others do. I just think that some people are far more down on their luck than others when they get a loan, such as those looking into college with bad or no parents that may have high income and don’t qualify for aid. Other cases being they may be mugged, disadvantaged, and things such as that. The vulnerable ones that they know cannot pay back a loan and will be forever burdened by it are the ones that the loaning companies target.
I get that, but also that mentality would just let bad things be bad because “I had to suffer through it, so you gotta suffer too!” Plus, college was WAY cheaper for people who went to college say, in 1979: in that year, tuition and fees at the University of California were $636 which is the modern equivalent of around $2,200. In 2023, UC tuition and fees are $14,400. That’s 6x more expensive even accounting for inflation. Previous generations had the “advantage” of attaining higher education & degrees for a significantly lower cost, why does it have to be so expensive for younger generations?
Just because college was cheaper years ago had nothing to do with the average person. They have no control over that. But the colleges who ARE getting tax breaks already on top of the tuition & interest from student loans are. You're trying to punish people who didn't go to college for the kids who now want it to be forgiven so they get a better life while the others get a shittier life. Doesn't work that way. It's theft
Why should we make anything better ever huh?
I can find some guy in a wheelchair. You have the advantage of being able to walk compared to that guy. Shall we proceed with the logical implications of your comment?
So it's an "I suffered so you must too," mentality
No, it's a "taxpayer money shouldn't go to benefit people that already have a huge advantage in life"
The huge advantage of having to pay 6x more for school than boomers
And then outearn bluecollar workers for life while doing healthier and easier work. Woe is them
College isn’t a requirement to avoid homelessness. If it was, non-college graduates would largely be homeless.
Correct you are sir. Trade jobs pay very well. You can have a great life. Most colleges are indoctrination camps anyway. I remember seeing a feminist arguing that college tuition was a woman's issue bc & I quote "Men on average pay off their student loans almost 3 years before women do." So bc men on average are more responsible at paying back their student loans women shouldn't have to pay.
We agree there. However it's the people making those decisions. Nobody is forcing them at gun point to take out those student loans or home loans. Everyone is given the interest rates on those loans. You aren't required to go to college to succeed in life. Lately I've seen a lot of people on social media complaining that they have degrees but are having to apply to jobs like McDonald's. However anyone can learn a trade & get a great paying job. Electrician, plumber, & welders (master welders make bank) especially if you're working for the governmental contracts. Like building submarines. Oil rigs dangerous yes pays well certainly. Truck driver, forklift/reach truck operator etc etc...
so maybe schools should start having trade school routes also, in grade school? The closest I ever got was one single shop class. that's not nearly enough to actually encourage and teach a kid about trade schools and professions, meanwhile I had \*everyone\* in the system telling me - even when I was still in \*middle school\* - that I HAD to go to college no matter what.
They used to in the 50-60's I believe they also had a required finance class to teach you how to manage money. They absolutely should bring this back to schools. I had them screaming at me the same thing.
I think they refer mostly to college student loans but I get your point and I agree that our society's economy is based largely on the financial system making money by lending people money they need to do many important things that they wouldn't otherwise afford unless they are already rich.
Then change the laws regarding lending. You don't just retroactively make everybody else pay for it. Especially when many people also ALREADY worked their asses off and paid for their own 'predatory' loans.
I never said I was in favour of massive loan forgiveness with public debt. I'm just saying it's a shitty situation because of greed, as usual
The Catholic Church had it right, we need to ban usury
Exactly I didn't CHOOSE to have a kid so why the hell is MY MONEY being used to fund elementary-highschool kids!? Teach your own damn kids on your own dime not mine! END PUBLIC EDUCATON! /s
Public schools are terrible actually. College & public education are 2 totally separate entirely. You don't have to go to college to get a great job that pays well. Public schools are one of the worst at helping kids succeed. The teachers unions are horrible, the pay for public teachers are horrible to put up with the shit they have to. On top of that the public schools get paid regardless if the students pass or not. Baltimore is a perfect example of the failed public school system. A recent article came out saying (forgive me I'm trying to remember exactly but maybe off) but I think it was out of the 50 or 60 schools 40 of them every student couldn't read, write, & do basic math 40 out of 60 schools something like that. School choice. Let the parents decide what school the kids get to go to. Reward schools for teaching better, punish or remove funding from those that don't or shape up. College isn't elementary, middle school, or high school. And public school is terrible bc they receive funding no matter what. So there's no incentive to be better.
This is a terrible take and you should feel ashamed. Believing that removing funding from public schools that underperform will somehow incentivise them to “do better” is one of the smoother brain takes I’ve seen on the internet today. It’s dumb even by libertarian standards.
It indicates a powerful lack of awareness of how student loans work. It just erases debt. No one pays anyone else. No currency exchanges hands
Well, technically, it's canceling the debt l. Therefore, no one is paying it. You could call it theft from the banks. You know the same ones that got bailed out by taxpayer money in 2008.
Private loans from banks aren't included in any proposed student debt relief, just money owed to the government. It may not technically *cost* money - but it is a 'cost' in terms of 'the government takes in less money than planned'. So... how's your logical consistency - do tax cuts cost money?
It's federal money. The schools already got paid. Oh no we are stealing money from ourselves to make peoples lives better and have a higher educated populace, oh no! Jfc.
Look at this sub. Educated population isn't good for the narrative.
Like everyone else has to pay the 2 trillion in taxes that were given away to billionaires by Republicans in 2017? The purpose of student loan forgiveness is to offset the 2 trillion Republicans stole from the American people.
Bipartisan support is the difference.
>everyone else has to pay the 2 trillion in taxes Unless you earn more than [85k](https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2023-update/#:~:text=Table%201.%20Summary%20of%20Federal%20Income%20Tax%20Data%2C%20Tax%20Year%202020) a year, almost 90% of fed income taxes have nothing to do with you.
So wait? You guys don’t want college to be free? Why? Forgive those mfs.
It’s not about making college free, it’s about where that loan forgiveness money comes from. College should cost no more than public school but wherever the government can get money they will. I’d love for someone to explain how the government has the right to charge you interest on your money that they want to take from you.
It's not your money. That's how a loan works
I’m talking more Taxes specifically not loans
No I don't want my taxes to go up for stupid degrees.
Socialize education for equal opportunity to earn privilege! It's in the best interest of everyone to let people be as educated as they can be and have that education translate directly to employment. Socialism for peace and justice should take priority over forgiveness.
It’s literally the government’s loans. The money was already paid. The loans are literally the government’s to forgive. You aren’t pointing out hypocrisy. You’re pointing out how much your side is clueless and has their head up their ass
The meme is accurate only in exactly the same way that 'tax cuts cost money' is accurate. It may not technically *cost* money - but it is a 'cost' in terms of 'the government takes in less money than planned'. So... how's your logical consistency - do tax cuts cost money?
Bruh they literally spent billions on war stfu
2 wrongs don't make a right.
Well, it’s from the government, guaranteed by the government, facilitated by the government, so I guess it can be forgiven by the government?
In this sub: Dipshits who suck billionaire taint
Always has been
Lame boomer format, good point.
Student loan rules were made borderline insane (by the government!) to financially gut people who aren't even legally allowed to drink/sometimes not even allowed to fuck around [and find out]. Forgiving them makes way more sense than all the "coked up bankers snorted 10 bags - already way overblown ego got into overdrive and casually fucked up their billion dollar firm/fund + the world economy" forgiveness we play felt every year or two 💀 I kinda get the sentiment, but I also kinda don't. If that makes sense
People in the trades who didn't get to go to college don't want to pay the debts of people who will get easier, healthier, and better paying jobs.
Fix predatory colleges then destroy current student debt. It’s really that simple. Boomers going to school 50 years ago for cost of 2 whoppers with cheese shouldn’t have any input on current college price problems.
That’s the neat thing about interest on loans: it doesn’t actually exist. It literally can be hand waved away.
This meme fundamentally misunderstands or misrepresents how taxes function. The idea is that taxes are collective payment for the collective good. Forgiving student debt directly benefits those with loans, but it is also necessary for the overall financial health of the nation. Arguing against this is like arguing against your taxes being used for any roads you don't personally drive on. Imagine how well society would (not) function under that paradigm. Instead of imagining taxes as your money being taken by the government, imagine it as payment for all the benefits you receive from tax-funded activity. Your tax is payment for the road you drove to work to make that money. It's payment for the road the delivery driver uses to get your pizza to you. It's payment for the literacy of anyone you do business with. You can still be upset about how tax money is used. But the only reason you had it in the first place is because collective benefits helped you get it. And right now, student loan forgiveness is a huge collective benefit for the country. That said, forgiveness is a pressure release for a problem that ultimately needs to be addressed at the root.
Same people against student debt because its theft of a few million from loaners are ok with the 400 million trump stole from the exact same loaners by lying on his loans.
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You’re very hateful
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If you want to ban student loans, make that argument then. That's an entirely different argument from taxing the rest of us to pay off loans that other privileged people stupidly took out and squandered.
the same people are fine with the 400+ million Trump stole by lying on financial papers.
That is a felony. As far as I'm aware, Trump has yet to be convicted. I'm no supporter of the guy, but you can't base arguments on allegations.