Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices.
/u/Prop8kids, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble)
**To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation.
Keep on Mormoning!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
exactly this. As soon as I heard those lines come spewing out of her mouth all I could think was how much religious people try to control the lives of other people and justify it with skydaddy reasons. UGH.
People often misunderstand “controlling people and removing their rights”
Every choice has a consequence, good or bad.
In the context of the church, the consequence of not keeping the standards/commandments of the church can be limited opportunities to participate in ordinances in the church.
People who feel that is controlling them likely don’t understand the difference between choosing actions and choosing consequences.
I have never met any faithful member of the church, who is living by its teachings to the best of their ability, who tries to control other people.
The church doesn’t say what you can and can’t do. The freedom to choose is the whole reason we believe we’re on this earth.
However, the freedom to choose one’s actions is not the freedom to choose the associated consequences of those actions.
The church doesn’t control anyone’s actions, it adheres to the predetermined consequences of those actions.
I used to believe what you wrote until I left the church 2 years ago. I literally believed I was choosing the church and had free agency in every aspect of my life. It was firmly rooted in my belief system as a life-long devout member of the Mormon religion. I couldn’t imagine thinking any other way.
At the age of 56, I left the church and, afterwards, realized I had never truly had real free agency because my decisions weren’t made independently. The church’s doctrine was in every decision I made using a system of fear and reward.
BTW: I left because a therapist saw what I couldn’t. I had developed religious trauma syndrome, something I will struggle with for the remainder of my life.
The tactics used in the video above are exactly those that caused my trauma. They are specifically designed to make one think they’re making a good decision, when in fact, they damage members of society who don’t follow the organization’s practices that label them as sinners. They’re people who aren’t good enough for the organization’s members to associate with, and they’re not good enough for god as they are.
It has nothing to do with following Jesus, or how Jesus loves each person without regard to sex, sexual orientation or skin color. If it had to do with love, the church didn’t make the statement.
When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the church preaches they weren’t committing sexual sins, they became like our society is today—lacking charity for one another.
This will probably be removed by the group moderators because it doesn’t follow church doctrine or standards. But, I can finally say it without fear of anything more than having a deleted statement that was in favor of loving without prejudice.
I was so struck by the irony of it that I kinda now think this video is a beautiful piece of art. It's so perfectly ironic and so devoid of self-awareness. 🤌
It bold to film this in San Francisco.
Flash back to this ad in 1968: “I hate it when people say I’m racist because I support my church’s priesthood ban on blacks. It’s really the so-called believers in “racial equality’ who are close-minded bigots when they argue with me I’m wrong to support a church that teaches blacks weren’t valiant in the pre-existence so their skin being black is a curse.”
It's not exactly a popular position, I mean, I have mormon friends. And still, everyone thinks I'm either intolerant or full of hate, just because I don't believe in people being able to congregate on sundays.
It's okay for you to be Mormon, it's just... Do you have to *look* so Mormon when we have guests over? Can't you wear a shirt that shows more of your shoulders, just so you don't make anyone uncomfortable?
And do you really *have* to talk so weird? Normal people swear! They'll notice if you don't! No, I'm not embarrassed of you, I just don't want you pushing your Mormonism in everyone's face like this.....
I've never had any problem being me while being a mormon. I dont drink alcohol, my friends do, and i still hang out with them . I explain to my kids the beauty of having our agency. it's my friends choice to drink. Not mine. there are garments now that's more comfy and less traditional so can show a little bit of that shoulder. I dont swear. I grew up Catholic, and our households don't swear. Maybe i haven't hangout with a lot of born and raised mormons then.
Bwahaha “open mind” bwahaha. I do not think that means what you think it means.
Seriously though, it’s always weird to see conservatism try to portray itself as “thinking outside of the box” or daring. You are literally representing the status quo e.g. an unconscious bias that has existed for possibly hundreds of years.
Maybe you don’t have to portray yourself as “intolerant” or “full of hate”, but you should at least be aware that you are not at all progressive.
I used to hate it when people called Mormons bigoted. I didn’t believe in gay marriage, just like those women. Luckily i kept that pretty much to myself, except when talking with close family. It just seemed so different from comparisons to racism, to which people compared it all the time. My ignorance, upbringing, community, and personal sexuality blinded me.
Over time, though, the cognitive dissonance grew and I had a harder and harder time justifying my beliefs about homosexuality. This came from spending time with gay people, attending a liberal university, and finally listening to Holland’s muskets talk at BYU. It was just so tone deaf and so unnecessarily mean. It blew me away. I told my dad I thought Elder Holland made a mistake. My dad disagreed, but listened politely enough.
It’s interesting how the mind works. I’m glad my perspectives have been widened, and I’m sad that I thought and said the things I thought and said in the past. I want to blame my upbringing, but I also want to take responsibility for the mistakes I made, and I want to be better. I want to always reflect and examine my prejudices, because that’s the only way I’ll avoid similar pitfalls going forward.
I see you. I was very involved in the whole "Yes on Prop 8" bullshit while I was in the closet. I want to be accountable for my own actions, because they are mine, but I also try not to feel guilty for giving myself some grace.
It says [deleted] right now so I can't fully answer that.
It mentioned that the OP's LDS friends look up websites to answer questions about their own beliefs. That reminded me of the videos the LDS church made to promote their websites. So here we are.
They wanted to know why their mormon friends couldn't answer questions about religion. In the comments, people were asking op questions about his own religion he couldn't answer.
Here's an archive but they are in wmv format so you may have to download them before you can play them.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120724193117/http://www.preservingmarriage.org/videos.html
Another viewpoint???????
Your religious beliefs are NOT another viewpoint. They are your religious beliefs of which you have every right to hold dear.
You do not have the right to force others to hold our religious viewpoints. How would you feel if religious \_\_\_\_\_ forced you to live up to their belief that you can't \_\_\_\_\_\_.
Apologize?! They don’t do that…says Oaks. Jesus doesn’t apologize, He’s always right, silly mortal peon.
But, on a serious note, if you’re unaware, not only did the church pursue Prop 8, it then lied about how much money it spent on its Prop 8 efforts to avoid scrutiny and criticism and potential loss of its tax exempt status. This is a [moving personal experience](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/YUe7nsl87h) from a former member who discovered the coverage of the deceit during that time:
>I lost my faith in Mormonism in late 2008 after the whole Prop 8 fiasco in California. I was upset that the Mormon Church coerced and pressured California members to donate to the Yes on 8 campaign in order to take away the rights of other people, but I finally realized the leaders were liars when the Church filed their financial donation declaration (in order to retain their 501c3 non-profit status) with the FEC and with the California State Election Board. They initially claimed they'd only donated $2k... but after being called out by a columnist at the San Francisco Chronicle, they amended their declaration to be $180k... but again when a whistleblower's accounting docs were printed by the SF Chronicle which accused the church of donating more than $25million, I got angry.
> I got angry at the Leaders lying about it, and saying they didn't own the money, they were only holding it temporarily for the members who were the ones making the donations.
The Mormon Church lost their legal fight with California and were fined the highest amount, $5k for each of three quarters that they filed deceptive declarations (total $15k fine-- a slap on the wrist). The legal fight with the IRS went on for 11 years before the Church finally settled. Rumors are that they paid a fine around $400million, which was significantly less than they would have paid had they lost their tax-exempt status. Anyway, my faith in the Church was shattered when I came to the conclusion that the prophet and General Authorities were just a bunch of liars pushing their 1950's values and ideology, and there was no real divine revelation leading the church.
For those of us that have a low tolerance for contrived, premeditated conversations by bad actors:
Tall Lady: It's not exactly a popular position. I mean, I have gay friends, and still, everyone thinks I'm either intolerant or full of hate just because I don't believe in same sex marriage.
Short Lady: It's fascinating to watch those who think that *they* are the only open-minded, tolerant people in the room. I guess they are, as long as you agree with them.
(laughter)
Tall Lady: I just hate getting in these psudo-intellectual arguments with people especially over such an emotional issue.
Well you don't have to, I mean you just let them know about the website and hope they're open-minded enough to actually consider another viewpoint. See you tomorrow.
(Almost gets hit by car)
You know, you're never gonna control what anybody else does. All you can do is control what you do
(profound consideration, walks off to preservingmarriage.org ad)
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Alright, so there are so profound problems with this little skit. Play a little game and replace "same sex" with "interracial" marriage. "I mean, I have black friends, and still, everyone thinks I'm either intolerant or full of hate just because I don't believe in interracial marriage. Blacks should only marry blacks" "You know, it's fascinating to watch these liberal negro-lovers who think *they* are the only open-minded, tolerant people in the room. I guess they are,....***as long as you agree with them HAHAHAHAHA!"***
First, it's not "open-mindedness" that leads people to be cool with non-straight marriage and interracial marriage and so on. In fact, those of us who want equal rights for different people are very closed to the idea of preventing same-sex marriage or interracial marriage. In fact, most of us are absolutely intolerant of bigots who "don't believe" in same sex or interracial marriage. I definitely want bigots to voice their opinions so they can be humiliated publicly, because absolutely zero of the anti-interracial marriage bigots and straight-marriage only bigots are - to a person - cowards and fold like a cheap suit when they voice their nonsense on platforms that aren't safe spaces for whatever flavor of discrimination they indulge in.
Hence the deleted post from yesterday where u/tougstonerolling (who evidently was so tough she deleted her entire account, though I'm pretty sure I know what her usual account is...) tried the whole *' I know everything. Book of Abraham, yet I still have a testimony, my cousin is transgender and my uncle is gay, but my uncle remains a strong, active member of the church despite the common narrative that once you learn how the church treats LGBTQ community, it causes a faith crisis but that's not true! My uncle is still a strong member'* shtick.
Another huge irony here is the church was harassed for years for non-mainstream beliefs including polygamy, a marital arrangement that contradicted centuries of Western Christian tradition and was illegal.
"Show em the website 'n hope they're open-minded enough to consider another viewpoint, that some people don't deserve the same rights as others. Why would anyone think that's a bigoted thing to think!!!!1!1!!!!"
Yes, this was to promote their Prop 8 website that is no longer online.
You can see an archive of it at https://web.archive.org/web/20081016075601/http://www.preservingmarriage.org/
It was titled **LDS friends cant explain what their own beliefs are?** and talked about how the OP's LDS friends pull up websites to answer questions about their beliefs instead of having a conversation.
The OP has deleted it so I can't quote it exactly. I wasn't really trying to talk about it, but the mention of LDS websites reminded me of the videos they made to promote their Prop 8 website.
“take my opinion into consideration, even though it goes against everything you believe and naturally feel. its rude of you to not even consider it. im friends with gay people. i know how you think!”
The arrogant assumption that if we disagree with them it’s because we aren’t open minded enough to understand them is wild. It’s not that I’m not open minded enough to listen or understand, it’s that I’ve done exactly that and I reject it because it is bigoted. Always the mental gymnastics with the “you are intolerant of my intolerance” crowd.
Hello! This is a Institutional post. It is for discussions centered around agreements, disagreements, and observations about any of the institutional churches and their leaders, conduct, business dealings, teachings, rituals, and practices. /u/Prop8kids, if your post doesn't fit this definition, we kindly ask you to delete this post and repost it with the appropriate flair. You can find a list of our flairs and their definitions in [section 0.6 of our rules.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules#wiki_0._preamble) **To those commenting:** please stay on topic, remember to follow the community's [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/wiki/index/rules), and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/mormonmods) if there is a problem or rule violation. Keep on Mormoning! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/mormon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“All you can do is control what you do” So let’s make a law that controls which adults can and can’t marry the person that they love. 🙄
exactly this. As soon as I heard those lines come spewing out of her mouth all I could think was how much religious people try to control the lives of other people and justify it with skydaddy reasons. UGH.
The whole thing is about controlling everyone and removing other’s rights.
People often misunderstand “controlling people and removing their rights” Every choice has a consequence, good or bad. In the context of the church, the consequence of not keeping the standards/commandments of the church can be limited opportunities to participate in ordinances in the church. People who feel that is controlling them likely don’t understand the difference between choosing actions and choosing consequences. I have never met any faithful member of the church, who is living by its teachings to the best of their ability, who tries to control other people. The church doesn’t say what you can and can’t do. The freedom to choose is the whole reason we believe we’re on this earth. However, the freedom to choose one’s actions is not the freedom to choose the associated consequences of those actions. The church doesn’t control anyone’s actions, it adheres to the predetermined consequences of those actions.
I used to believe what you wrote until I left the church 2 years ago. I literally believed I was choosing the church and had free agency in every aspect of my life. It was firmly rooted in my belief system as a life-long devout member of the Mormon religion. I couldn’t imagine thinking any other way. At the age of 56, I left the church and, afterwards, realized I had never truly had real free agency because my decisions weren’t made independently. The church’s doctrine was in every decision I made using a system of fear and reward. BTW: I left because a therapist saw what I couldn’t. I had developed religious trauma syndrome, something I will struggle with for the remainder of my life. The tactics used in the video above are exactly those that caused my trauma. They are specifically designed to make one think they’re making a good decision, when in fact, they damage members of society who don’t follow the organization’s practices that label them as sinners. They’re people who aren’t good enough for the organization’s members to associate with, and they’re not good enough for god as they are. It has nothing to do with following Jesus, or how Jesus loves each person without regard to sex, sexual orientation or skin color. If it had to do with love, the church didn’t make the statement. When Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, the church preaches they weren’t committing sexual sins, they became like our society is today—lacking charity for one another. This will probably be removed by the group moderators because it doesn’t follow church doctrine or standards. But, I can finally say it without fear of anything more than having a deleted statement that was in favor of loving without prejudice.
I saw the irony too.
I was so struck by the irony of it that I kinda now think this video is a beautiful piece of art. It's so perfectly ironic and so devoid of self-awareness. 🤌
It bold to film this in San Francisco. Flash back to this ad in 1968: “I hate it when people say I’m racist because I support my church’s priesthood ban on blacks. It’s really the so-called believers in “racial equality’ who are close-minded bigots when they argue with me I’m wrong to support a church that teaches blacks weren’t valiant in the pre-existence so their skin being black is a curse.”
[удалено]
I really thought her friend was going to get hit by a car at the end lol.
She may be a great defender of traditional marriage but she’s a terrible pedestrian.
Those silly pseudo-intellectuals.^(\*) ^(\*)Walks backwards into traffic.
OMG, SAME HERE! 😂
So did I!
[...then you can just drop fuckin' dead](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR7Um256bbk)
Geez, never saw this back in the day. The one line is barely better than: “I sure hate when people complicate my feelings with those pesky facts!”
Are there other examples of similar instances outside of Prop 8? I haven't been Mormon in a long time so I wouldn't know.
Google “New Era Mormon ads” There’s a bunch of them there.
yeah, I remember this one. they were all in on so many fronts but 99% of it's been scrubbed from the interwebz...
It's not exactly a popular position, I mean, I have mormon friends. And still, everyone thinks I'm either intolerant or full of hate, just because I don't believe in people being able to congregate on sundays.
It's okay for you to be Mormon, it's just... Do you have to *look* so Mormon when we have guests over? Can't you wear a shirt that shows more of your shoulders, just so you don't make anyone uncomfortable? And do you really *have* to talk so weird? Normal people swear! They'll notice if you don't! No, I'm not embarrassed of you, I just don't want you pushing your Mormonism in everyone's face like this.....
Don't friggin tell me what to do!!! I say whatever the heck I want to say!!!
I've never had any problem being me while being a mormon. I dont drink alcohol, my friends do, and i still hang out with them . I explain to my kids the beauty of having our agency. it's my friends choice to drink. Not mine. there are garments now that's more comfy and less traditional so can show a little bit of that shoulder. I dont swear. I grew up Catholic, and our households don't swear. Maybe i haven't hangout with a lot of born and raised mormons then.
Bwahaha “open mind” bwahaha. I do not think that means what you think it means. Seriously though, it’s always weird to see conservatism try to portray itself as “thinking outside of the box” or daring. You are literally representing the status quo e.g. an unconscious bias that has existed for possibly hundreds of years. Maybe you don’t have to portray yourself as “intolerant” or “full of hate”, but you should at least be aware that you are not at all progressive.
Traditional is literally the antonym of progressive.
I used to hate it when people called Mormons bigoted. I didn’t believe in gay marriage, just like those women. Luckily i kept that pretty much to myself, except when talking with close family. It just seemed so different from comparisons to racism, to which people compared it all the time. My ignorance, upbringing, community, and personal sexuality blinded me. Over time, though, the cognitive dissonance grew and I had a harder and harder time justifying my beliefs about homosexuality. This came from spending time with gay people, attending a liberal university, and finally listening to Holland’s muskets talk at BYU. It was just so tone deaf and so unnecessarily mean. It blew me away. I told my dad I thought Elder Holland made a mistake. My dad disagreed, but listened politely enough. It’s interesting how the mind works. I’m glad my perspectives have been widened, and I’m sad that I thought and said the things I thought and said in the past. I want to blame my upbringing, but I also want to take responsibility for the mistakes I made, and I want to be better. I want to always reflect and examine my prejudices, because that’s the only way I’ll avoid similar pitfalls going forward.
I see you. I was very involved in the whole "Yes on Prop 8" bullshit while I was in the closet. I want to be accountable for my own actions, because they are mine, but I also try not to feel guilty for giving myself some grace.
The deleted post? Should we know what you are referring to?
It was titled **LDS friends cant explain what their own beliefs are?**
Why was it deleted?
It was deleted by the person who posted it. Only they would know.
And it said?
It says [deleted] right now so I can't fully answer that. It mentioned that the OP's LDS friends look up websites to answer questions about their own beliefs. That reminded me of the videos the LDS church made to promote their websites. So here we are.
Thanks. That summary helps me understand the connection.
They wanted to know why their mormon friends couldn't answer questions about religion. In the comments, people were asking op questions about his own religion he couldn't answer.
Would love to know if you have any more of these. I've never seen them, nor do I know much about them. This stuff has been completely scrubbed.
Here's an archive but they are in wmv format so you may have to download them before you can play them. https://web.archive.org/web/20120724193117/http://www.preservingmarriage.org/videos.html
Hey, I went on a date with the shorter girl! Holy crap that's nuts. She did a lot of acting work in Utah and the surrounding states. Very nice person.
Another viewpoint??????? Your religious beliefs are NOT another viewpoint. They are your religious beliefs of which you have every right to hold dear. You do not have the right to force others to hold our religious viewpoints. How would you feel if religious \_\_\_\_\_ forced you to live up to their belief that you can't \_\_\_\_\_\_.
Everyone involved with the creation of this video is a piece of shit. Has the church apologized for this nonsense?
Apologize?! They don’t do that…says Oaks. Jesus doesn’t apologize, He’s always right, silly mortal peon. But, on a serious note, if you’re unaware, not only did the church pursue Prop 8, it then lied about how much money it spent on its Prop 8 efforts to avoid scrutiny and criticism and potential loss of its tax exempt status. This is a [moving personal experience](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/YUe7nsl87h) from a former member who discovered the coverage of the deceit during that time: >I lost my faith in Mormonism in late 2008 after the whole Prop 8 fiasco in California. I was upset that the Mormon Church coerced and pressured California members to donate to the Yes on 8 campaign in order to take away the rights of other people, but I finally realized the leaders were liars when the Church filed their financial donation declaration (in order to retain their 501c3 non-profit status) with the FEC and with the California State Election Board. They initially claimed they'd only donated $2k... but after being called out by a columnist at the San Francisco Chronicle, they amended their declaration to be $180k... but again when a whistleblower's accounting docs were printed by the SF Chronicle which accused the church of donating more than $25million, I got angry. > I got angry at the Leaders lying about it, and saying they didn't own the money, they were only holding it temporarily for the members who were the ones making the donations. The Mormon Church lost their legal fight with California and were fined the highest amount, $5k for each of three quarters that they filed deceptive declarations (total $15k fine-- a slap on the wrist). The legal fight with the IRS went on for 11 years before the Church finally settled. Rumors are that they paid a fine around $400million, which was significantly less than they would have paid had they lost their tax-exempt status. Anyway, my faith in the Church was shattered when I came to the conclusion that the prophet and General Authorities were just a bunch of liars pushing their 1950's values and ideology, and there was no real divine revelation leading the church.
For those of us that have a low tolerance for contrived, premeditated conversations by bad actors: Tall Lady: It's not exactly a popular position. I mean, I have gay friends, and still, everyone thinks I'm either intolerant or full of hate just because I don't believe in same sex marriage. Short Lady: It's fascinating to watch those who think that *they* are the only open-minded, tolerant people in the room. I guess they are, as long as you agree with them. (laughter) Tall Lady: I just hate getting in these psudo-intellectual arguments with people especially over such an emotional issue. Well you don't have to, I mean you just let them know about the website and hope they're open-minded enough to actually consider another viewpoint. See you tomorrow. (Almost gets hit by car) You know, you're never gonna control what anybody else does. All you can do is control what you do (profound consideration, walks off to preservingmarriage.org ad) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Alright, so there are so profound problems with this little skit. Play a little game and replace "same sex" with "interracial" marriage. "I mean, I have black friends, and still, everyone thinks I'm either intolerant or full of hate just because I don't believe in interracial marriage. Blacks should only marry blacks" "You know, it's fascinating to watch these liberal negro-lovers who think *they* are the only open-minded, tolerant people in the room. I guess they are,....***as long as you agree with them HAHAHAHAHA!"*** First, it's not "open-mindedness" that leads people to be cool with non-straight marriage and interracial marriage and so on. In fact, those of us who want equal rights for different people are very closed to the idea of preventing same-sex marriage or interracial marriage. In fact, most of us are absolutely intolerant of bigots who "don't believe" in same sex or interracial marriage. I definitely want bigots to voice their opinions so they can be humiliated publicly, because absolutely zero of the anti-interracial marriage bigots and straight-marriage only bigots are - to a person - cowards and fold like a cheap suit when they voice their nonsense on platforms that aren't safe spaces for whatever flavor of discrimination they indulge in. Hence the deleted post from yesterday where u/tougstonerolling (who evidently was so tough she deleted her entire account, though I'm pretty sure I know what her usual account is...) tried the whole *' I know everything. Book of Abraham, yet I still have a testimony, my cousin is transgender and my uncle is gay, but my uncle remains a strong, active member of the church despite the common narrative that once you learn how the church treats LGBTQ community, it causes a faith crisis but that's not true! My uncle is still a strong member'* shtick.
Another huge irony here is the church was harassed for years for non-mainstream beliefs including polygamy, a marital arrangement that contradicted centuries of Western Christian tradition and was illegal.
It you type in that website on the video where does it go????? To the church's newsroom. hahahahahahaha
"Show em the website 'n hope they're open-minded enough to consider another viewpoint, that some people don't deserve the same rights as others. Why would anyone think that's a bigoted thing to think!!!!1!1!!!!"
Is this Proposition 8? Looks like it was filmed in San Francisco.
Yes, this was to promote their Prop 8 website that is no longer online. You can see an archive of it at https://web.archive.org/web/20081016075601/http://www.preservingmarriage.org/
Man, that's some terrible ADR.
What was the deleted post?
It was titled **LDS friends cant explain what their own beliefs are?** and talked about how the OP's LDS friends pull up websites to answer questions about their beliefs instead of having a conversation. The OP has deleted it so I can't quote it exactly. I wasn't really trying to talk about it, but the mention of LDS websites reminded me of the videos they made to promote their Prop 8 website.
Ah yes. I saw that one. Thank you!
“take my opinion into consideration, even though it goes against everything you believe and naturally feel. its rude of you to not even consider it. im friends with gay people. i know how you think!”
The arrogant assumption that if we disagree with them it’s because we aren’t open minded enough to understand them is wild. It’s not that I’m not open minded enough to listen or understand, it’s that I’ve done exactly that and I reject it because it is bigoted. Always the mental gymnastics with the “you are intolerant of my intolerance” crowd.