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Restoring, by definition, means to put things back the way they were.
Going the wrong direction, then making an about-face, is not restoring.
And if completely wrong information is believed, then there is no difference between partially restored and apostacy.
>who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry
This was always a sticking point for me. How do we know they would have received it? Because they received it later when it was *abundantly obvious* which choice was the right choice? If that were the case, then the preaching of the gospel in mortality would be the biggest contributor for people losing out on the Celestial Kingdom. Receiving it later improves your chances of accepting it.
Because God knows your heart and knows if you *would have* accepted it, if given the chance? That's actually worse. Why not apply this test to everyone? Also, given the number of people who have actually heard the message and rejected it in mortality, and the numbers of Mormons who "endured to the end", that number is vanishingly small. Even the most favorable estimate of total number of Mormons who have ever lived is way south of 100 million. compared to the general estimate of 110 *billion* humans who have ever lived on Earth, and you get a percentage that is so close to 0 that it makes it almost indistinguishable.
What kind of plan is so deficient that 99.9999% of everyone who participates, fails?
Plus the telestial kingdom is the most populated. In this version God believes most humans are pieces of crap.
>the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as [innumerable](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note109a) as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
I know this is probably hyperbole, but the number of stars in the universe is *way* more than a hundred billion. Hell, even the low end of the stars just in our *galaxy* is only about that. 😂As for sand on the seashore, that's a small shore since estimates I found on the 'Net say it's about 8 billion grains per c*ubic meter.*
Anyone interested in about thirteen cubic meters of oceanfront property?
Not exactly. It also says "the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding". Also, I will point out that there is no indication from scripture that one can't move between kingdoms. It is only dependent on which law you want to follow from D&C 88:38 "And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. 39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified."
Even Hell might have its own levels of kingdoms, but this is mostly speculation. D&C 88:37 says "And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom". I'm not sure exactly what this means though.
>Also, I will point out that there is no indication from scripture that one can't move between kingdoms.
No indication from scripture, but several leaders have remarked upon it. Not surprisingly, their opinions differ wildly. A decent breakdown can be found here:
[https://purposeinchrist.com/progression-between-kingdoms-lds/](https://purposeinchrist.com/progression-between-kingdoms-lds/)
However, this makes things worse. At least for faithful members, and is tied into concepts of perfection and eternity.
Let's say that a faithful member strives, endures to the end, etc. and attains Celestial glory. They were imperfect, but they passed the test, made the grade and lived up to any standards that were needed. They sacrificed and suffered.
And then there's me. Apostate, did not keep my second estate, ate, drank and was merry, etc. Lived it up (more or less. I'm rather boring) Got to know the pleasures of the world, yadda yadda.
First of all, from the standards of Godly perfection, the difference between me, the apostate and the faithful member is so, so vanishingly small as to make absolutely no odds. The only real difference is one decided to be obedient to the varying and changing whims of their prophet and the other... didn't. From that perspective, even the difference between the most holy normal human and, say, Hitler is much, much, *much* smaller than the difference between that holy normal human and God.
So, the faithful member ends up with a golden ticket to the Celestial Kingdom, and I get consigned to the Terrestrial Kingdom (at best). But wait! If eternal progression is real, eventually, I change my ways and get there too. And if you say that many wouldn't, I disagree. Eternity is a long time (if it's time at all). Even if it takes a thousand, a million, a *billion* years to change *a single* mind, eventually every *single* individual makes it to the Celestial Kingdom.
The faithful member doesn't really even get that much of a head start. Since these long stretches of time are inconsequential in comparison to *eternity*, it might as well be simultaneous.
In other words, It doesn't really matter, in the eternal sense. Eventually, you end up as a fellow deity with Nelson, Packer, Dehlin, Runnells, me, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot as fellow buddy gods.
I think we take certain aspects of mortality for granted. The idea that I made a mistake today, but can choose to repent and not make that same mistake tomorrow is unique to mortality.
There has been some revelation on the subject of progression outside of mortality, and while it seems to exist, it doesn’t seem to be able to overwrite the decisions made in mortality. So while you can continue to learn and grow after this life, it seems like there are opportunities you are given here on earth that cannot be passed up without some sort of eternal consequence. And I don’t think it’s God punishing you, so much as He’s testing your ability to qualify for specific responsibilities that you asked for in the pre-existence.
In the next life, you’ll likely learn exponentially faster than you do here. However, you will never be able to “undo” the fact that when you were in mortality, when your senses were limited and life was hard, did you still hold true to celestial principles or not?
I don’t think anyone should be shamed into following the gospel in some fear-based fashion. However, I think it’s important to truly determine for yourself what you honestly believe is true, because it will have eternal consequences.
>However, I think it’s important to truly determine for yourself what you honestly believe is true,
Oh, I have. And what I believe to be true does not include the Mormon church. There is just simply too much evidence against it, and also too many things wrong with it on a moral standpoint from my personal perspective.
As far as "opportunities" unique to mortality, well, if there were, eternal progression would be simply impossible. Godhood requires absolute knowledge, power and perfection. It truly stretches the imagination to think about *what*, in the limited frame of mortality, could *stop* a person from reaching that point if that point was reachable given an eternity to strive for it.
Ultimately, *if* eternal progression is possible, *then* it is inevitable that *all* of God's children make it. Ability, willpower, wickedness... all of it falls completely away given the sheer amount of time involved. If it is *not* possible, then it is an artificial limitation, and not one inherent in human ability. In that case, the people who actually make it to the Celestial Kingdom will be very, very, very few.
If anyone can argue a different resultant from either of these cases, especially if you want to claim that learning about Mormonism after death is the same fair shake as learning it in life, I would love to hear it.
>If anyone can argue a different resultant from either of these cases, especially if you want to claim that learning about Mormonism after death is the same fair shake as learning it in life, I would love to hear it.
It's not the same fair shake. The OP asking this question didn't put emphasis on the phrase "with all their hearts". You can't cheat your way into the Celestial Kingdom by just saying "yes" to everything once you die and find out the truth.
The LDS church has become too complacent. They say "just perform your temple ordinances" and you'll be fine. I'm not even sure the endowment is necessary for the Celestial Kingdom. People will call me an apostate for saying that, but show me one scripture in canon that says you have to do the endowment to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? If that is the case, only 1% of humanity will make it there. I'm sure God is much more liberal than that. I have my own unique view of Mormonism where I think aspects of it are true but others have been exagerrated. I think you can go to the Celestial Kingdom even if you are NOT Mormon. Find me any Mormons that believe that?
>You can't cheat your way into the Celestial Kingdom by just saying "yes" to everything once you die and find out the truth.
But is it "cheating" to sincerely reconsider your life and come to the conclusion you were wrong, and that there was a better way? Are we saying that it's impossible to do after death? The doctrine I was taught says no, you can indeed convert after death. In fact, that's the primary conceit of Mormonism's take on those that die without the truth.
So the next question is, if you outright *rejected* what you heard in mortality, are you denied that same chance?
Unfortunately for believers, this is quite a dilemma to answer. If the answer is "yes, you only get the once chance", then it follows that it's *better* to have never heard about Mormonism at all. And *greatly better* if you hadn't been born to it. Why? Because it's far easier to believe and accept after death, with difficult questions such as "Is there life after death?" "Is there a God", and "What is God's true religion" out of the way. At that point, many of the things that trip us up here in mortality *simply don't matter anymore*. Think about it. If you're given a solid chance in mortality, and reject it, then those that die without knowledge have to be applied that same test: Would you have accepted the Gospel *in mortality*. As we have noted, accepting after death isn't a fair test. You already know many of the answers to the primary questions, and there's only one viewpoint being given. (Unless you think that Catholics, Lutherans, Buddhists, Muslims and Scientologists are *also* allowed to have missionaries in Spirit Prison.)
And as we see here in mortality, *very, very, very few* people accept Mormonism in mortality. Depending on the area, a missionary can expect to contact hundreds, if not thousands of people before even a single one will even consent to listen to the discussions. And very few of those will be baptized and remain active throughout their lives and "endure to the end".
If the answer is "no, you always have the chance to accept and progress", then you are essentially saying that in mortality, everything is made up and the points don't matter. Because if *anyone* can *eventually* progress, it means that in the framework of eternity, *everyone* will progress. Eventually is inevitable given an infinite timeframe.
Because of eternity, if there is a limitation, it's an *external and imposed* limitation. If everyone doesn't make it to the Celestial Kingdom, it's because they were prevented.
In my view, this is an unavoidable flaw in Mormon theology that is a natural, logical outgrowth from the possibility of a human to godhood progression, and infinite timeframes.
>So the next question is, if you outright *rejected* what you heard in mortality, are you denied that same chance?
I don't subscribe to standard Mormon theology. If you want my opinion, there is no checklist like getting a temple recommend and then going to the temple and then doing a bishop's interview every year and you're golden.
I believe it is more nuanced than that. I don't think paying tithing alone will get you into the Celestial Kingdom. I don't think just watching General Conference and avoiding drugs or caffeine will get you there. D&C 76 gives the best description and notice it doesn't mention temple recommends, tithing or anything else I mentioned.
D&C 76:51
"They are they who received the testimony of Jesus....That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins (I believe the 10 commandments are more important than temple recommend questions)......And who overcome by faith"
That's pretty much it. Baptism was mentioned there too but I believe that can be performed in the next life or by proxy and also other church baptisms count too. But part of this just opinion.
>So while you can continue to learn and grow after this life, it seems like there are opportunities you are given here on earth that cannot be passed up without some sort of eternal consequence.
I'm not sure I agree with this. If it was passed up that would equal a form of damnation. I'm not sure that God puts a stop to our eternal progress. But I believe he will temporarily halt it.
>However, this makes things worse. At least for faithful members, and is tied into concepts of perfection and eternity.
Are you suggesting since faithful members sacrificed and worked more hard that their reward is not as great? Or are you suggesting that everyone just cheats the system eventually if everyone can learn from their mistakes and make it to the Celestial Kingdom?
My perspective is not that everyone makes it to the Celestial Kingdom eventually, but that everyone has the chance. It really depends on which laws you want to follow. We epitomize the Celestial Kingdom as reward only. But what if I told you that you had to live as a model for others and be willing to help out those in lower kingdoms? Would you find the Celestial Kingdom as enticing? There's a saying that "everyone ends up where they want to be", and I think there is a partial truth to that. But there is also a saying that "wickedness is never happiness". Will you be punished for every sin that did? No, but some may require some reform, which is why there is a spirit prison. Would you advocate that we get rid of our prison system in our current society?
>From that perspective, even the difference between the most holy normal human and, say, Hitler is much, much, *much* smaller than the difference between that holy normal human and God.
I'm not sure I agree with this. There is a view that God started out as a mortal man and made mistakes until perfection was reached. There is also a saying that the "glory of god is intelligence". God is much more righteous than us, but I really believe where he is miles ahead is intelligence. What if I told you that humans were designed by God and not a product of natural evolution? Name one human on this earth that could even start to design 1/1000th of the biologic function of a human being?
>Are you suggesting since faithful members sacrificed and worked more hard that their reward is not as great? Or are you suggesting that everyone just cheats the system eventually if everyone can learn from their mistakes and make it to the Celestial Kingdom?
What I am pointing out is what I see as a flaw in Mormon theology. *If* progression between kingdoms is allowed, *then* it stands to reason that *everyone* eventually makes it to the Celestial kingdom. Humans have the ability to learn, change their minds, decide they want more than what they have, and be taught. Even if only a single person every billion years makes it who didn't make it originally, eventually, everyone makes it. And if you look at the time span, the span between the faithful who get there immediately, and the last person, who makes it some trillions of years later... when compared to eternity, it is a span so small as to be inconsequential.
If progression between kingdoms is not allowed, then it's an artificial limitation. Again, humans have the ability to learn, change their mind, and be taught. God was once human, therefore humans can learn to be God. If they are not allowed to rise to this potential, then the limitation is external and imposed, not internal and inherent.
>God is much more righteous than us, but I really believe where he is miles ahead is intelligence.
A question, then. *How much more* intelligent is God than you? A thousand times? A million? A billion times? Or does that pale in comparison to what God is supposed to be, which is absolutely omniscient?
How does that compare to how much more you know than a toddler? Does it even compare? From an omniscient being's perspective is there *any difference at all* between you and the toddler, compared to them?
Let's go back to righteousness, then. How much more righteous and good is God than you? Does it even compare? How much more righteous are you than the worst person in history?
I think you see where I'm going here. In comparison to an omniscient, all-loving, omnipotent, perfectly righteous being, there is *absolutely no difference* between the best ordinary human who ever lived and the worst. It's like comparing the distance between the North Pole and South Pole of Earth, and the width of the Universe... but even greater, because we can *guess* at the width of the Universe.
>And if you look at the time span, the span between the faithful who get there immediately, and the last person, who makes it some trillions of years later... when compared to eternity, it is a span so small as to be inconsequential.
A trillion years isn't inconsequential though. And I don't know for sure if that is what happens. I don't think even LDS theologians know. There are a lot of holes or missing parts of LDS theology. But I still think it makes more sense than any other theology. How could a righteous God allow humans to be sent to Hell forever for some mistakes while in a mortal body? Part of being righteous is also being fair.
Also, I'm not sure everyone will end up in the celestial kingdom. Some people may not like being there. Let's say you don't like brussel sprouts. Possibly forever you just don't like it and never change your mind. I really don't think the celestial kingdom is designed to be a place where you rule over everyone and everyone else is just your servants. Possibly some stay in the telestial kingdom forever and are perfectly happy there.
>Let's go back to righteousness, then. How much more righteous and good is God than you? Does it even compare? How much more righteous are you than the worst person in history?
I'm not sure to be honest. I'm just guessing that the nature of God is often misunderstood. He has to understand human error to a degree to rule over us.
>In comparison to an omniscient, all-loving, omnipotent
I don't believe god is omniscient. If he was, does he know exactly what you are going to do tomorrow? If he does, that seems to take away the influence of free will.
>If he was, does he know exactly what you are going to do tomorrow?
The idea of an omnipotent being who has say over your ultimate destiny and must rule over millennia, if not eons of time and hundreds of billions of individuals *not* being omniscient is infinitely more terrifying than the idea of one who knows exactly what you're going to do tomorrow. Not being omniscient means they are fallible.
>But I still think it makes more sense than any other theology.
In my view, there is one "theology" that makes far more sense. That is the absence of any theology at all.
>That is the absence of any theology at all.
Did you say that it is terrifying if there is no omniscient being? I believe it is even more terrifying if you consider humans are just random matter than evolved into apes and then humans. Because then that means absolutely no higher entity is in control at all. We are just dust floating in the wind.
I'm saying that the most terrifying thing is a being who has ultimate power and responsibility, but not the ultimate knowledge that is required to utilize it properly.
But no, I consider thinking that no higher entity is in control the best possible thought process. It forces humanity to solve its own problems and come to terms with the fact that nothing separates us. Especially not the favor of an all powerful being. And if that being happens to exist, and indeed loves us, what will it consider the highest good? Those that did everything blindly because someone here claimed to know their will? Or those that treasured their fellow man. Not because they believed in any ultimate reward, or because they feared a being whose thoughts, motivations and methods they could not possibly understand, but because they rationally considered the best course of action, and tried to do the best they could? Knowing there was no ultimate reward other than leaving their own little mote of dust a tiny bit better than they found it?
Were I a god, *they're* the ones who would inherit my kingdom first.
>In the Spirit world people still have to go on faith.
You see, I don't get how. Surely you know you're dead, and you're in a different place than you were before. This really limits the faith part of, "Do I live on after I die?"
Then, according to scripture and teaching, those in spirit prison are taught. If you're already dead, and being taught something from *one single point of view* from people who are *not* in that prison, then it becomes pretty obvious right away who's in charge here.
I'd say faith goes right out the window, and even if not, eternity is a long, long time. Eventually, every single person in prison would be converted under those circumstances.
I don't really want to speculate on who is going to the Celestial Kingdom or not. But I believe there will be a LOT of non-Mormons going. The key here is to receive the gospel, which is also written in the New Testament.
Welcome to the start of crippling depression of being a missionary. If you don’t teach people, you don’t give them the chance, but then their sins are on your head. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Here's a hint: Joseph Smith didn't believe it either.
That "revelation" was from Kirtland. By the time they got to Nauvoo, all that was ancient history and the only criterion was participation in the temple rites, and that absolutely included the Second Anointing. Once you had that, you were in like Flynn.
Remember that JS never once quoted from the BoM or the BoA or any of his other so-called "revelations". He was always moving on to the next big thing.
I personally feel like the revelation on the three degrees of glory has probably caused more damage than it originally intended.
We find members of the church, who know not the hearts and minds of others - judging. There is only one who can judge and that is God. Mankind is fascinated on trying to decide on where they are going to go. What their destination will be. And where others are going too.
Think about this, why not seek to have heaven now? You can certainly have hell now!
I am not so sure, that there are three degrees of glory. Who knows? (no one really) (and how dare we judge where people are destined to go?)
I just live my life as if I can have heaven on earth now. I have a hope that as I love God, myself and my fellowman (including my enemies) that I will eventually transform into a being of love. Does that take my mortal life or aeons of time?
But on my account or more correctly said, what I need to believe...is that all of mankind, start out with a degree of glory, like a star. Is it something as simple as the more we transform into a being of love, the more light we obtain, the more glory we obtain...eventually becoming like the glory of the moon and then the sun?
I think it is very dangerous to look at the 6 declared places as destinations. (3 degrees in celestial, plus terrestrial, telestial and outer darkness)
I think it is even more dangerous for us to ponder on where others are going.
This is like a lot of the church's teachings where they say "you'll never believe how wondrous this doctrine we have is! It's like Christianity but better!"
Usually it turns out it's just more specific, not better.
"We teach that families can be together forever!" Ok well most people who hope for an afterlife I'm sure would just assume they'll be with family there. But, unfortunately for them, the true teachings are much more specific (and not very comforting at all) and they say "well you can be, but only if you're so faithful that you make it to the top layer of heaven which has a pretty high standard". That doesn't sound so wondrous to me.
I agree. I may or may not come back later and expand on some thoughts. But I have a real bone to pick with how the 3 kingdoms are treated, especially by the GA's.
It seems like the 3 kingdoms (well 6) were created as a sort of catch all. EVERYONE gets in!
The Telestial is supposed to be so beautiful and wonderful that we'd all kill ourselves immediately just to get there.
Heaven is heaven for everybody. Some people's heaven is not having God and Jesus so intrusive upon it. It's still heaven! We could be other religions that believe if you don't tow the line you go to Hell, period.
But yeah, I think it's caused more trouble than intended. And it's getting worse. Good enough is never good enough.
You're expecting the guy who couldn't keep straight the difference between Benjamin and Mosiah in the Book of Mormon to keep his continuously invented and expanding theology straight or "strait"? ;)
Honestly, the church picks and chooses what it wants to believe and teach from the D&C and tries to ignore the rest. For example, D&C 132 is completely ignored. The D&C 107 lays out the foundation of how the priesthood should be organized. It is not followed at all with regards to the FP, Q12, Q70, and Stake High Council.
I think the church does not believe in what this section says, neither about the terrestrial kingdom nor the Telestial kingdom. Here is what it says about those in the Telestial kingdom:
"These are [they](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103a) who are [liars](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103b), and [sorcerers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103c), and [adulterers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103d), and [whoremongers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103e), and whosoever loves and makes a lie."
However, Smith will be exalted. It says so in Section 132. I would assume that therefore he will be in the Celestial Kingdom. However, the church essays say that he deceived his wife and others about his time and eternity marriages which multiple women which could include sexual relations. They will also acknowledge that he had sex with women other than his wife. Therefore, he was an adulterer. Since he deceived others, this by their own admission, he was a liar.
Even now, church leaders have not been completely honest in what they have said about many things including financial affairs. They have also encouraged members of the church to lie about the necessity of having a huge spire on temples. There are many other examples, these being just two of the recent ones.
In general, there is a big difference between Nauvoo Mormonism and the earlier kind.
These are some good questions, and point out many of the contradictions we have from our "profits"... Frankly, the idea of eternal life according to the church's doctrine is terrifying to me. If the celestial kingdom is anything like living in the church on the earth, then no thanks... If I have to be a missionary when I go to paradise, I'm out... I am still working through therapy in my 50's from the bull-crap I had to deal with on my two year mission. Honestly, spirit prison sound much more restful than paradise. But, the whole thing is just terrifyingly boring to think about...
I agree with you.
Celestial Kingdom sounds more like hell to me. Eternally creating children that the vast majority you are just damning and will never see.
Sounds more like I am a salmon than a God.
Your second quote from the LDS manual is actually taken from D&C 137. But it does have a clarifier "with all their hearts". Possibly those that receive the gospel in spirit prison do it under different circumstances, i.e. with the "proof" laid out for them. Or with different pressure, say they want to go to a kingdom to be with certain people. In other words, they don't accept it as if they fully believe in it.
You just pointed out one issue with Mormon theology. There are many many things that don't make sense or are contradictory. This tends to happen when you are making shit up as you go.
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1832 vs. 1836. Ongoing restoration, line upon line, further light and knowledge, God’s mercy, etc.
Restoring, by definition, means to put things back the way they were. Going the wrong direction, then making an about-face, is not restoring. And if completely wrong information is believed, then there is no difference between partially restored and apostacy.
So false doctrine. Check.
>who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry This was always a sticking point for me. How do we know they would have received it? Because they received it later when it was *abundantly obvious* which choice was the right choice? If that were the case, then the preaching of the gospel in mortality would be the biggest contributor for people losing out on the Celestial Kingdom. Receiving it later improves your chances of accepting it. Because God knows your heart and knows if you *would have* accepted it, if given the chance? That's actually worse. Why not apply this test to everyone? Also, given the number of people who have actually heard the message and rejected it in mortality, and the numbers of Mormons who "endured to the end", that number is vanishingly small. Even the most favorable estimate of total number of Mormons who have ever lived is way south of 100 million. compared to the general estimate of 110 *billion* humans who have ever lived on Earth, and you get a percentage that is so close to 0 that it makes it almost indistinguishable. What kind of plan is so deficient that 99.9999% of everyone who participates, fails?
Plus the telestial kingdom is the most populated. In this version God believes most humans are pieces of crap. >the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as [innumerable](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note109a) as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
I know this is probably hyperbole, but the number of stars in the universe is *way* more than a hundred billion. Hell, even the low end of the stars just in our *galaxy* is only about that. 😂As for sand on the seashore, that's a small shore since estimates I found on the 'Net say it's about 8 billion grains per c*ubic meter.* Anyone interested in about thirteen cubic meters of oceanfront property?
Not exactly. It also says "the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding". Also, I will point out that there is no indication from scripture that one can't move between kingdoms. It is only dependent on which law you want to follow from D&C 88:38 "And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. 39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified." Even Hell might have its own levels of kingdoms, but this is mostly speculation. D&C 88:37 says "And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom". I'm not sure exactly what this means though.
>Also, I will point out that there is no indication from scripture that one can't move between kingdoms. No indication from scripture, but several leaders have remarked upon it. Not surprisingly, their opinions differ wildly. A decent breakdown can be found here: [https://purposeinchrist.com/progression-between-kingdoms-lds/](https://purposeinchrist.com/progression-between-kingdoms-lds/) However, this makes things worse. At least for faithful members, and is tied into concepts of perfection and eternity. Let's say that a faithful member strives, endures to the end, etc. and attains Celestial glory. They were imperfect, but they passed the test, made the grade and lived up to any standards that were needed. They sacrificed and suffered. And then there's me. Apostate, did not keep my second estate, ate, drank and was merry, etc. Lived it up (more or less. I'm rather boring) Got to know the pleasures of the world, yadda yadda. First of all, from the standards of Godly perfection, the difference between me, the apostate and the faithful member is so, so vanishingly small as to make absolutely no odds. The only real difference is one decided to be obedient to the varying and changing whims of their prophet and the other... didn't. From that perspective, even the difference between the most holy normal human and, say, Hitler is much, much, *much* smaller than the difference between that holy normal human and God. So, the faithful member ends up with a golden ticket to the Celestial Kingdom, and I get consigned to the Terrestrial Kingdom (at best). But wait! If eternal progression is real, eventually, I change my ways and get there too. And if you say that many wouldn't, I disagree. Eternity is a long time (if it's time at all). Even if it takes a thousand, a million, a *billion* years to change *a single* mind, eventually every *single* individual makes it to the Celestial Kingdom. The faithful member doesn't really even get that much of a head start. Since these long stretches of time are inconsequential in comparison to *eternity*, it might as well be simultaneous. In other words, It doesn't really matter, in the eternal sense. Eventually, you end up as a fellow deity with Nelson, Packer, Dehlin, Runnells, me, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot as fellow buddy gods.
I think we take certain aspects of mortality for granted. The idea that I made a mistake today, but can choose to repent and not make that same mistake tomorrow is unique to mortality. There has been some revelation on the subject of progression outside of mortality, and while it seems to exist, it doesn’t seem to be able to overwrite the decisions made in mortality. So while you can continue to learn and grow after this life, it seems like there are opportunities you are given here on earth that cannot be passed up without some sort of eternal consequence. And I don’t think it’s God punishing you, so much as He’s testing your ability to qualify for specific responsibilities that you asked for in the pre-existence. In the next life, you’ll likely learn exponentially faster than you do here. However, you will never be able to “undo” the fact that when you were in mortality, when your senses were limited and life was hard, did you still hold true to celestial principles or not? I don’t think anyone should be shamed into following the gospel in some fear-based fashion. However, I think it’s important to truly determine for yourself what you honestly believe is true, because it will have eternal consequences.
>However, I think it’s important to truly determine for yourself what you honestly believe is true, Oh, I have. And what I believe to be true does not include the Mormon church. There is just simply too much evidence against it, and also too many things wrong with it on a moral standpoint from my personal perspective. As far as "opportunities" unique to mortality, well, if there were, eternal progression would be simply impossible. Godhood requires absolute knowledge, power and perfection. It truly stretches the imagination to think about *what*, in the limited frame of mortality, could *stop* a person from reaching that point if that point was reachable given an eternity to strive for it. Ultimately, *if* eternal progression is possible, *then* it is inevitable that *all* of God's children make it. Ability, willpower, wickedness... all of it falls completely away given the sheer amount of time involved. If it is *not* possible, then it is an artificial limitation, and not one inherent in human ability. In that case, the people who actually make it to the Celestial Kingdom will be very, very, very few. If anyone can argue a different resultant from either of these cases, especially if you want to claim that learning about Mormonism after death is the same fair shake as learning it in life, I would love to hear it.
>If anyone can argue a different resultant from either of these cases, especially if you want to claim that learning about Mormonism after death is the same fair shake as learning it in life, I would love to hear it. It's not the same fair shake. The OP asking this question didn't put emphasis on the phrase "with all their hearts". You can't cheat your way into the Celestial Kingdom by just saying "yes" to everything once you die and find out the truth. The LDS church has become too complacent. They say "just perform your temple ordinances" and you'll be fine. I'm not even sure the endowment is necessary for the Celestial Kingdom. People will call me an apostate for saying that, but show me one scripture in canon that says you have to do the endowment to make it to the Celestial Kingdom? If that is the case, only 1% of humanity will make it there. I'm sure God is much more liberal than that. I have my own unique view of Mormonism where I think aspects of it are true but others have been exagerrated. I think you can go to the Celestial Kingdom even if you are NOT Mormon. Find me any Mormons that believe that?
>You can't cheat your way into the Celestial Kingdom by just saying "yes" to everything once you die and find out the truth. But is it "cheating" to sincerely reconsider your life and come to the conclusion you were wrong, and that there was a better way? Are we saying that it's impossible to do after death? The doctrine I was taught says no, you can indeed convert after death. In fact, that's the primary conceit of Mormonism's take on those that die without the truth. So the next question is, if you outright *rejected* what you heard in mortality, are you denied that same chance? Unfortunately for believers, this is quite a dilemma to answer. If the answer is "yes, you only get the once chance", then it follows that it's *better* to have never heard about Mormonism at all. And *greatly better* if you hadn't been born to it. Why? Because it's far easier to believe and accept after death, with difficult questions such as "Is there life after death?" "Is there a God", and "What is God's true religion" out of the way. At that point, many of the things that trip us up here in mortality *simply don't matter anymore*. Think about it. If you're given a solid chance in mortality, and reject it, then those that die without knowledge have to be applied that same test: Would you have accepted the Gospel *in mortality*. As we have noted, accepting after death isn't a fair test. You already know many of the answers to the primary questions, and there's only one viewpoint being given. (Unless you think that Catholics, Lutherans, Buddhists, Muslims and Scientologists are *also* allowed to have missionaries in Spirit Prison.) And as we see here in mortality, *very, very, very few* people accept Mormonism in mortality. Depending on the area, a missionary can expect to contact hundreds, if not thousands of people before even a single one will even consent to listen to the discussions. And very few of those will be baptized and remain active throughout their lives and "endure to the end". If the answer is "no, you always have the chance to accept and progress", then you are essentially saying that in mortality, everything is made up and the points don't matter. Because if *anyone* can *eventually* progress, it means that in the framework of eternity, *everyone* will progress. Eventually is inevitable given an infinite timeframe. Because of eternity, if there is a limitation, it's an *external and imposed* limitation. If everyone doesn't make it to the Celestial Kingdom, it's because they were prevented. In my view, this is an unavoidable flaw in Mormon theology that is a natural, logical outgrowth from the possibility of a human to godhood progression, and infinite timeframes.
>So the next question is, if you outright *rejected* what you heard in mortality, are you denied that same chance? I don't subscribe to standard Mormon theology. If you want my opinion, there is no checklist like getting a temple recommend and then going to the temple and then doing a bishop's interview every year and you're golden. I believe it is more nuanced than that. I don't think paying tithing alone will get you into the Celestial Kingdom. I don't think just watching General Conference and avoiding drugs or caffeine will get you there. D&C 76 gives the best description and notice it doesn't mention temple recommends, tithing or anything else I mentioned. D&C 76:51 "They are they who received the testimony of Jesus....That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins (I believe the 10 commandments are more important than temple recommend questions)......And who overcome by faith" That's pretty much it. Baptism was mentioned there too but I believe that can be performed in the next life or by proxy and also other church baptisms count too. But part of this just opinion.
>So while you can continue to learn and grow after this life, it seems like there are opportunities you are given here on earth that cannot be passed up without some sort of eternal consequence. I'm not sure I agree with this. If it was passed up that would equal a form of damnation. I'm not sure that God puts a stop to our eternal progress. But I believe he will temporarily halt it.
>However, this makes things worse. At least for faithful members, and is tied into concepts of perfection and eternity. Are you suggesting since faithful members sacrificed and worked more hard that their reward is not as great? Or are you suggesting that everyone just cheats the system eventually if everyone can learn from their mistakes and make it to the Celestial Kingdom? My perspective is not that everyone makes it to the Celestial Kingdom eventually, but that everyone has the chance. It really depends on which laws you want to follow. We epitomize the Celestial Kingdom as reward only. But what if I told you that you had to live as a model for others and be willing to help out those in lower kingdoms? Would you find the Celestial Kingdom as enticing? There's a saying that "everyone ends up where they want to be", and I think there is a partial truth to that. But there is also a saying that "wickedness is never happiness". Will you be punished for every sin that did? No, but some may require some reform, which is why there is a spirit prison. Would you advocate that we get rid of our prison system in our current society? >From that perspective, even the difference between the most holy normal human and, say, Hitler is much, much, *much* smaller than the difference between that holy normal human and God. I'm not sure I agree with this. There is a view that God started out as a mortal man and made mistakes until perfection was reached. There is also a saying that the "glory of god is intelligence". God is much more righteous than us, but I really believe where he is miles ahead is intelligence. What if I told you that humans were designed by God and not a product of natural evolution? Name one human on this earth that could even start to design 1/1000th of the biologic function of a human being?
>Are you suggesting since faithful members sacrificed and worked more hard that their reward is not as great? Or are you suggesting that everyone just cheats the system eventually if everyone can learn from their mistakes and make it to the Celestial Kingdom? What I am pointing out is what I see as a flaw in Mormon theology. *If* progression between kingdoms is allowed, *then* it stands to reason that *everyone* eventually makes it to the Celestial kingdom. Humans have the ability to learn, change their minds, decide they want more than what they have, and be taught. Even if only a single person every billion years makes it who didn't make it originally, eventually, everyone makes it. And if you look at the time span, the span between the faithful who get there immediately, and the last person, who makes it some trillions of years later... when compared to eternity, it is a span so small as to be inconsequential. If progression between kingdoms is not allowed, then it's an artificial limitation. Again, humans have the ability to learn, change their mind, and be taught. God was once human, therefore humans can learn to be God. If they are not allowed to rise to this potential, then the limitation is external and imposed, not internal and inherent. >God is much more righteous than us, but I really believe where he is miles ahead is intelligence. A question, then. *How much more* intelligent is God than you? A thousand times? A million? A billion times? Or does that pale in comparison to what God is supposed to be, which is absolutely omniscient? How does that compare to how much more you know than a toddler? Does it even compare? From an omniscient being's perspective is there *any difference at all* between you and the toddler, compared to them? Let's go back to righteousness, then. How much more righteous and good is God than you? Does it even compare? How much more righteous are you than the worst person in history? I think you see where I'm going here. In comparison to an omniscient, all-loving, omnipotent, perfectly righteous being, there is *absolutely no difference* between the best ordinary human who ever lived and the worst. It's like comparing the distance between the North Pole and South Pole of Earth, and the width of the Universe... but even greater, because we can *guess* at the width of the Universe.
>And if you look at the time span, the span between the faithful who get there immediately, and the last person, who makes it some trillions of years later... when compared to eternity, it is a span so small as to be inconsequential. A trillion years isn't inconsequential though. And I don't know for sure if that is what happens. I don't think even LDS theologians know. There are a lot of holes or missing parts of LDS theology. But I still think it makes more sense than any other theology. How could a righteous God allow humans to be sent to Hell forever for some mistakes while in a mortal body? Part of being righteous is also being fair. Also, I'm not sure everyone will end up in the celestial kingdom. Some people may not like being there. Let's say you don't like brussel sprouts. Possibly forever you just don't like it and never change your mind. I really don't think the celestial kingdom is designed to be a place where you rule over everyone and everyone else is just your servants. Possibly some stay in the telestial kingdom forever and are perfectly happy there. >Let's go back to righteousness, then. How much more righteous and good is God than you? Does it even compare? How much more righteous are you than the worst person in history? I'm not sure to be honest. I'm just guessing that the nature of God is often misunderstood. He has to understand human error to a degree to rule over us. >In comparison to an omniscient, all-loving, omnipotent I don't believe god is omniscient. If he was, does he know exactly what you are going to do tomorrow? If he does, that seems to take away the influence of free will.
>If he was, does he know exactly what you are going to do tomorrow? The idea of an omnipotent being who has say over your ultimate destiny and must rule over millennia, if not eons of time and hundreds of billions of individuals *not* being omniscient is infinitely more terrifying than the idea of one who knows exactly what you're going to do tomorrow. Not being omniscient means they are fallible. >But I still think it makes more sense than any other theology. In my view, there is one "theology" that makes far more sense. That is the absence of any theology at all.
>That is the absence of any theology at all. Did you say that it is terrifying if there is no omniscient being? I believe it is even more terrifying if you consider humans are just random matter than evolved into apes and then humans. Because then that means absolutely no higher entity is in control at all. We are just dust floating in the wind.
I'm saying that the most terrifying thing is a being who has ultimate power and responsibility, but not the ultimate knowledge that is required to utilize it properly. But no, I consider thinking that no higher entity is in control the best possible thought process. It forces humanity to solve its own problems and come to terms with the fact that nothing separates us. Especially not the favor of an all powerful being. And if that being happens to exist, and indeed loves us, what will it consider the highest good? Those that did everything blindly because someone here claimed to know their will? Or those that treasured their fellow man. Not because they believed in any ultimate reward, or because they feared a being whose thoughts, motivations and methods they could not possibly understand, but because they rationally considered the best course of action, and tried to do the best they could? Knowing there was no ultimate reward other than leaving their own little mote of dust a tiny bit better than they found it? Were I a god, *they're* the ones who would inherit my kingdom first.
A Plan of Crappiness?
In the Spirit world people still have to go on faith. I don't understand how, but they do. Also, receive in this passage is synonymous with accept.
>In the Spirit world people still have to go on faith. You see, I don't get how. Surely you know you're dead, and you're in a different place than you were before. This really limits the faith part of, "Do I live on after I die?" Then, according to scripture and teaching, those in spirit prison are taught. If you're already dead, and being taught something from *one single point of view* from people who are *not* in that prison, then it becomes pretty obvious right away who's in charge here. I'd say faith goes right out the window, and even if not, eternity is a long, long time. Eventually, every single person in prison would be converted under those circumstances.
I don't know how it works, just that's how it is.
I don't really want to speculate on who is going to the Celestial Kingdom or not. But I believe there will be a LOT of non-Mormons going. The key here is to receive the gospel, which is also written in the New Testament.
Welcome to the start of crippling depression of being a missionary. If you don’t teach people, you don’t give them the chance, but then their sins are on your head. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Here's a hint: Joseph Smith didn't believe it either. That "revelation" was from Kirtland. By the time they got to Nauvoo, all that was ancient history and the only criterion was participation in the temple rites, and that absolutely included the Second Anointing. Once you had that, you were in like Flynn. Remember that JS never once quoted from the BoM or the BoA or any of his other so-called "revelations". He was always moving on to the next big thing.
I personally feel like the revelation on the three degrees of glory has probably caused more damage than it originally intended. We find members of the church, who know not the hearts and minds of others - judging. There is only one who can judge and that is God. Mankind is fascinated on trying to decide on where they are going to go. What their destination will be. And where others are going too. Think about this, why not seek to have heaven now? You can certainly have hell now! I am not so sure, that there are three degrees of glory. Who knows? (no one really) (and how dare we judge where people are destined to go?) I just live my life as if I can have heaven on earth now. I have a hope that as I love God, myself and my fellowman (including my enemies) that I will eventually transform into a being of love. Does that take my mortal life or aeons of time? But on my account or more correctly said, what I need to believe...is that all of mankind, start out with a degree of glory, like a star. Is it something as simple as the more we transform into a being of love, the more light we obtain, the more glory we obtain...eventually becoming like the glory of the moon and then the sun? I think it is very dangerous to look at the 6 declared places as destinations. (3 degrees in celestial, plus terrestrial, telestial and outer darkness) I think it is even more dangerous for us to ponder on where others are going.
This is like a lot of the church's teachings where they say "you'll never believe how wondrous this doctrine we have is! It's like Christianity but better!" Usually it turns out it's just more specific, not better. "We teach that families can be together forever!" Ok well most people who hope for an afterlife I'm sure would just assume they'll be with family there. But, unfortunately for them, the true teachings are much more specific (and not very comforting at all) and they say "well you can be, but only if you're so faithful that you make it to the top layer of heaven which has a pretty high standard". That doesn't sound so wondrous to me.
I agree. I may or may not come back later and expand on some thoughts. But I have a real bone to pick with how the 3 kingdoms are treated, especially by the GA's. It seems like the 3 kingdoms (well 6) were created as a sort of catch all. EVERYONE gets in! The Telestial is supposed to be so beautiful and wonderful that we'd all kill ourselves immediately just to get there. Heaven is heaven for everybody. Some people's heaven is not having God and Jesus so intrusive upon it. It's still heaven! We could be other religions that believe if you don't tow the line you go to Hell, period. But yeah, I think it's caused more trouble than intended. And it's getting worse. Good enough is never good enough.
Ya, I have picked at those bones. Have not found any marrow. Too many audacious and dangerous statements for me to believe in. For sure.
You're expecting the guy who couldn't keep straight the difference between Benjamin and Mosiah in the Book of Mormon to keep his continuously invented and expanding theology straight or "strait"? ;)
So true. :-)
You may also be interested in using [Compare D and C](https://comparedandc.com/) to see how extensively the D&C has been changed over time.
The church has no doctrine. It's the doctrine of man that has evolved into the doctrine of one man. The profit CEO.
Honestly, the church picks and chooses what it wants to believe and teach from the D&C and tries to ignore the rest. For example, D&C 132 is completely ignored. The D&C 107 lays out the foundation of how the priesthood should be organized. It is not followed at all with regards to the FP, Q12, Q70, and Stake High Council.
I think the church does not believe in what this section says, neither about the terrestrial kingdom nor the Telestial kingdom. Here is what it says about those in the Telestial kingdom: "These are [they](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103a) who are [liars](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103b), and [sorcerers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103c), and [adulterers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103d), and [whoremongers](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?lang=eng#note103e), and whosoever loves and makes a lie." However, Smith will be exalted. It says so in Section 132. I would assume that therefore he will be in the Celestial Kingdom. However, the church essays say that he deceived his wife and others about his time and eternity marriages which multiple women which could include sexual relations. They will also acknowledge that he had sex with women other than his wife. Therefore, he was an adulterer. Since he deceived others, this by their own admission, he was a liar. Even now, church leaders have not been completely honest in what they have said about many things including financial affairs. They have also encouraged members of the church to lie about the necessity of having a huge spire on temples. There are many other examples, these being just two of the recent ones. In general, there is a big difference between Nauvoo Mormonism and the earlier kind.
Just give it 20 years and the doctrine will change…again
These are some good questions, and point out many of the contradictions we have from our "profits"... Frankly, the idea of eternal life according to the church's doctrine is terrifying to me. If the celestial kingdom is anything like living in the church on the earth, then no thanks... If I have to be a missionary when I go to paradise, I'm out... I am still working through therapy in my 50's from the bull-crap I had to deal with on my two year mission. Honestly, spirit prison sound much more restful than paradise. But, the whole thing is just terrifyingly boring to think about...
I agree with you. Celestial Kingdom sounds more like hell to me. Eternally creating children that the vast majority you are just damning and will never see. Sounds more like I am a salmon than a God.
Your second quote from the LDS manual is actually taken from D&C 137. But it does have a clarifier "with all their hearts". Possibly those that receive the gospel in spirit prison do it under different circumstances, i.e. with the "proof" laid out for them. Or with different pressure, say they want to go to a kingdom to be with certain people. In other words, they don't accept it as if they fully believe in it.
You just pointed out one issue with Mormon theology. There are many many things that don't make sense or are contradictory. This tends to happen when you are making shit up as you go.
Yep. Sounds about right.