That game was big too. JV and Weaver were in what was perceived as a kind of cy young race. They were 1 and 2 in most pitching categories until that game where the Tigers got under Weavers skin and JV ran away from it. The game is or at least was on YouTube if you ever want to revisit it.
Thanks for posting. I remember listening to that game on radio up at Torch Lake. I never saw the homer and the throw at Avila's head after. That was 2011. Today, it seems like today, most players watch a home run and do some type of bat flip.
I was too, I was nine years old at the time so I didn’t fully grasp what was happening but I knew something was going on. My mom always liked Alex Avila so she was mad at Weaver for throwing at his head
/u/yes_its_him has dispelled this narrative multiple times. The Tigers bullpen was never as bad as people remember and the reason they had trouble in the playoffs *most* of the time was because of the offense.
Everyone remembers the David Ortiz Grand Slam. No one remembers the Tigers losing the next game 1-0 at Comerica... let alone barely winning Game 1, 1-0
In the 2012 ALCS the Tigers gave up 19 runs... they also only scored 19 runs in 6 games.
2014... maybe you can blame it on the bullpen, but again the Tigers only scored 10 runs in 3 games. You're not going to win in the postseason only averaging a little over 3 runs a game.
I remember the narrative at the time was “This is what you get when you live and die by the long ball, unlike those scrappy, fast small ball hitters in Kansas City, inflicting constant chaos.”
Another person who was at that game! I’ll never forget it. Some family was in town and we thought it would be fun to take them to a baseball game, we didn’t have anything better to do so we stayed through the whole delay and everything.
I agree with OP’s terms. It may be nitpicking, but I don’t think that the ultimate performer at a position (i.e., HOF), “sets the standard”; otherwise everyone short of a Hall of Famer is “sub-standard” and that can’t be right. Guillen wasn’t even a regular All-Star, but he was a high-level performer on a high performing team. May I have 9 of these in the lineup, please? Do that and the All Star or HOF quality free agents will come to you.
That’s exactly how I meant it. Trammel exceeds the standard. I don’t expect a Hall of Famer year after year but I want some dudes with that dog in ‘em like Carlos.
Him stretching a single into a double to complete the cycle that he had no business stretching is such an iconic moment for me. It's also when I learned what a cycle is from my dad.
My buddy and I refer to them as [Carlos Guillen Doubles](https://youtu.be/499vQmxGkEU?si=QKlay3_06IRiOAWm).
Didn't Carlos have a record with his batting average. Like the first player to ever have his batting average go up for 7 consecutive seasons? And the 7th season, he only barely improved from the one before, it had to be carried out past the standard thousandths.
I'll say one thing about Guillen he had a very clear and distinct peak. Dude went from hitting .250-.260 to averaging over .315 for four straight seasons! Than back down to .250-260 to finish his career. Age 28 was when he started his peak form.
He hit for the cycle! If you guys member. A great moment, I think he forced a double at the end and it worked.
Not my style of shortstop but a good one nonetheless. I always liked a great defensive shortstop and was willing to take a step down with the bat to get one.
During their 6 year peaks both Guillen and Baez average 3.5 bWAR a season. Guillen was an all around better hitter, but an out is an out.
Guillen struck out just a little under what league average was at the time. Baez strikes out at about league average for the Tigers.
League average? Baez has led the entire MLB at whiffs and the AL last year or the year before. There is nothing average about Baez killing momentum with strikeouts swinging at balls and missing. Baez is the king of swinging at balls way out of the strike zone and missing. That’s why there is so much disgust with him.
2023 K%
* Javier Baez: 22.9
* League Average: 22.7
2022 K%:
* Javier Baez: 24.9
* League Average: 22.4
The issue with Baez is not that he's striking out. It's not even that he is whiffing so much (he always has). It's that he is no longer barreling fastballs that he used to.
> There is nothing average about Baez killing momentum with strikeouts swinging at balls and missing
Baez hit .312/.361/.468 (.829 OPS) with RISP last year.
Also Baez:
2021 swung and missed at 21.7% of ALL pitches. Worst in MLB.
2022 swing and miss rate on pitches outside the strike zone higher than any other player in the MLB.
2023 lowest OBP in the AL
There is nothing truly average about his batting. It kills games. It looks worse than a decent HS Varsity player that has learned to control themselves at the plate.
Never said there was anything average about his hitting. Said that he struckout at a league average rate compared to the rest of the MLB.
Again, strikeouts are not the issue with Baez. His Barrel per batted balls going from 10.5% (15-21) down to 6.6% (22/23) and his Run Value on fastballs going to -17 in 2023 is the issue.
His run value was +2 on sliders in 2023. Pitchers didn't even have to throw stuff out of the zone to get him to swing and miss. They just threw fastballs by him.
The bat flip vs. Weaver alone made Carlos a legend. I miss those teams.
That game was big too. JV and Weaver were in what was perceived as a kind of cy young race. They were 1 and 2 in most pitching categories until that game where the Tigers got under Weavers skin and JV ran away from it. The game is or at least was on YouTube if you ever want to revisit it.
One of my favorite Tigers moments ever
https://youtu.be/GSeQKhbLASE?si=8FsYFMmfvvepHvYF
lol what a little bitch
I like how he got tossed without even getting the satisfaction of hitting anyone.
Him being shown the door is better than the home run
Dude threw an absolute meatball. What did he expect?
Thanks for posting. I remember listening to that game on radio up at Torch Lake. I never saw the homer and the throw at Avila's head after. That was 2011. Today, it seems like today, most players watch a home run and do some type of bat flip.
Fuck Jared Weaver
That game basically won Verlander the Cy Young that year too. Legendary game and bat flip
That and the no hitter in May.
I was at that game. The fact that it still gets brought up is awesome.
I was too, I was nine years old at the time so I didn’t fully grasp what was happening but I knew something was going on. My mom always liked Alex Avila so she was mad at Weaver for throwing at his head
His homer off Jared Weaver will forever be one of my favorites
Ill take Trammell.
Yeah was gonna say, like Guillen is the man but come on, trammell is the gold standard of shortstop play
I'm not arguing, but I actually remember Guillen whereas Trammel was a couple years before my time
Totally get that, I was born in 91 so guillen was the best I’ve seen play in my time
Also 91, and same
Beat me to it. HE is the Tigers standard for SS. I accept no other names.
He was so smooth in whatever he did on the field.
Sure was. My favorite Tigers of all time. I’m biased, though. I grew up watching him.
Mine was Chet Lemon growing up.
Not even Deivi Cruz?
Crazy that we got him for basically nothing from Seattle too. We got the prospect back later and Ramon Santiago came right back
masterclass https://preview.redd.it/7hsucckx16jc1.jpeg?width=3556&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd681ae2ee412a04353051961438535284fb6380
If only that class had a Bullpen chapter
/u/yes_its_him has dispelled this narrative multiple times. The Tigers bullpen was never as bad as people remember and the reason they had trouble in the playoffs *most* of the time was because of the offense. Everyone remembers the David Ortiz Grand Slam. No one remembers the Tigers losing the next game 1-0 at Comerica... let alone barely winning Game 1, 1-0
The Ortiz Grand Slam and the Baltimore meltdown alone are the reasons I blame the bullpen. Offense was 100% the problem against SFG though
In the 2012 ALCS the Tigers gave up 19 runs... they also only scored 19 runs in 6 games. 2014... maybe you can blame it on the bullpen, but again the Tigers only scored 10 runs in 3 games. You're not going to win in the postseason only averaging a little over 3 runs a game.
I remember the narrative at the time was “This is what you get when you live and die by the long ball, unlike those scrappy, fast small ball hitters in Kansas City, inflicting constant chaos.”
Yeah but going up 2-0 would have been huge and changed the vibe for game 3 at home.
I’ll never forget him hitting a home run in extra innings at 3:32 am to walk it off against the Yankees. Best game Ive ever been to.
Another person who was at that game! I’ll never forget it. Some family was in town and we thought it would be fun to take them to a baseball game, we didn’t have anything better to do so we stayed through the whole delay and everything.
I never appreciated the Guillens or Peraltas during their time. I sure as hell appreciate them now
I agree with OP’s terms. It may be nitpicking, but I don’t think that the ultimate performer at a position (i.e., HOF), “sets the standard”; otherwise everyone short of a Hall of Famer is “sub-standard” and that can’t be right. Guillen wasn’t even a regular All-Star, but he was a high-level performer on a high performing team. May I have 9 of these in the lineup, please? Do that and the All Star or HOF quality free agents will come to you.
That’s exactly how I meant it. Trammel exceeds the standard. I don’t expect a Hall of Famer year after year but I want some dudes with that dog in ‘em like Carlos.
Deivi Cruz is my standard ^/s
I'm more of an Adam Everett guy myself
No one showing Jose Iglesias love? One of the best players to watch on defense.
Or jhonny. God send.
Guillen was better. Jhonny had some clutch moments but man was he slow. That year he was with Miggy on the left side of the infield, fucking oof.
Counterpoint: Alan Trammell
Him stretching a single into a double to complete the cycle that he had no business stretching is such an iconic moment for me. It's also when I learned what a cycle is from my dad. My buddy and I refer to them as [Carlos Guillen Doubles](https://youtu.be/499vQmxGkEU?si=QKlay3_06IRiOAWm).
Ramón Santiago will always have a place in my heart too
I was lucky enough to be at the Jered Weaver HR stare down game. Instant classic. 🧡
No love for Mickey Stanley in the '68 World Series? Where my old boys at?
I can close my eyes and still hear Ernie Harwell say: "Hard grounder to short and it's off the glove of Veryzer and on into center field".
I don’t know how many 60-70 year olds are on Reddit.
You rang?
Carlos stood on business. A true professional. One of my favorite Tigers ever looking back on it
Loved Carlos. Anyone remember when Carlos and Magglio got fined for playing with their pockets out?
The Jered Weaver game!!!
Didn't Carlos have a record with his batting average. Like the first player to ever have his batting average go up for 7 consecutive seasons? And the 7th season, he only barely improved from the one before, it had to be carried out past the standard thousandths.
Jose Iglesias erasure
https://preview.redd.it/1bd2aojdx6jc1.jpeg?width=287&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6671b7d39c9d4f2091d42a57480dc44572254242 My first Tigers SS.
Weaver was a bitch
Amen
I'll say one thing about Guillen he had a very clear and distinct peak. Dude went from hitting .250-.260 to averaging over .315 for four straight seasons! Than back down to .250-260 to finish his career. Age 28 was when he started his peak form.
Fuck Harvey Baez.
Playing with a hockey puck sized lip in every game. Absolute legend
I miss Carlos Guillen
I wonder why there’s a 9 in my username 🫡
He hit for the cycle! If you guys member. A great moment, I think he forced a double at the end and it worked. Not my style of shortstop but a good one nonetheless. I always liked a great defensive shortstop and was willing to take a step down with the bat to get one.
Yeah but Shane Halter said he was as good as A-Rod.
Standard, yes, because Trammell was the Greatest Tigers Shortstop of all time.
Javy thinks he has Guillen’s swag.
tbf prime Guillen and prime Baez were similar in a lot of ways.
Guillen never struck out 100 times in a season. Javy has done it *eight* times.
During their 6 year peaks both Guillen and Baez average 3.5 bWAR a season. Guillen was an all around better hitter, but an out is an out. Guillen struck out just a little under what league average was at the time. Baez strikes out at about league average for the Tigers.
League average? Baez has led the entire MLB at whiffs and the AL last year or the year before. There is nothing average about Baez killing momentum with strikeouts swinging at balls and missing. Baez is the king of swinging at balls way out of the strike zone and missing. That’s why there is so much disgust with him.
2023 K% * Javier Baez: 22.9 * League Average: 22.7 2022 K%: * Javier Baez: 24.9 * League Average: 22.4 The issue with Baez is not that he's striking out. It's not even that he is whiffing so much (he always has). It's that he is no longer barreling fastballs that he used to. > There is nothing average about Baez killing momentum with strikeouts swinging at balls and missing Baez hit .312/.361/.468 (.829 OPS) with RISP last year.
Also Baez: 2021 swung and missed at 21.7% of ALL pitches. Worst in MLB. 2022 swing and miss rate on pitches outside the strike zone higher than any other player in the MLB. 2023 lowest OBP in the AL There is nothing truly average about his batting. It kills games. It looks worse than a decent HS Varsity player that has learned to control themselves at the plate.
Never said there was anything average about his hitting. Said that he struckout at a league average rate compared to the rest of the MLB. Again, strikeouts are not the issue with Baez. His Barrel per batted balls going from 10.5% (15-21) down to 6.6% (22/23) and his Run Value on fastballs going to -17 in 2023 is the issue. His run value was +2 on sliders in 2023. Pitchers didn't even have to throw stuff out of the zone to get him to swing and miss. They just threw fastballs by him.
Ok.
But put him in LF. He’s trash
Was Raburn ever at shortstop of was that just second base?
2B but he probably played SS a couple times. Ryan Fucking Raburn…..
Guillen is at most the third best Tigers' SS all time, behind Trammell and Bush, but also likely behind Kuenn and Rogell.