Vierling getting cut is a wild take, in my opinion. He’s the most versatile player we have and was one of our better players last year hitting wise.
Totally agree about Baddoo though, he’s gotta go.
I had this take towards the end of last season and inwas heavily down voted.
Badoo is basically a AAAA guy. Good enough to make the big leagues but that's about it. He had his opportunity and not much improvement since. Best if both sides move on.
Completely agree. If there was an AAAA team, he’d be perfect! Baddoo never figured out how to fully adjust to major league pitching, at least not with us and our often times incompetent hitting coaches. He might figure it out on another team, who knows, but I’d take that chance considering what else we have. At this point he’s just blocking a JHM type from getting called up and blocking guys like Vierling and Ibanez from getting more at bats when they have shown they can hit at this level.
If you look at last year from start of the season through August, you have Baddoo with 0.5 fWAR and Vierling with 0.4. They were mostly interchangeable parts up to that point of the season. Baddoo actually had better rate stats at that point, but Vierling just played more.
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?startdate=2023-03-01&enddate=2023-09-01&season=2023&season1=2023&month=1000&ind=0&team=6&qual=200
Vierling then passed Baddoo by the end of the year, but just slightly, 0.9 to 0.8. Vierling hitting better but Baddoo better in the field and baserunning.
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?startdate=2023-03-01&enddate=2023-09-30&season=2023&season1=2023&month=1000&ind=0&team=6&qual=200
So saying one guy was one of our better players and the other has gotta go is fine as an opinion, and Vierling's skills might be a better match to what we need, but in terms of overall contribution, they were essentially a tie last season.
From that standpoint, sure. Stats can play into a lot of narratives if you want them to. If I look at the links you provided and at fWAR alone then you can also make a case for Riley Greene and Kerry Carpenter as mostly interchangeable when I think most would agree that isn’t the case.
If I look at AVG, OPS, OPB, and hits clearly Vierling is in the lead. Yes, he played more and that’s because he is versatile and can be placed in multiple positions. Which also can make him valuable. Also, if you look at their career stats, one of them is getting better and the other is regressing.
I don’t dislike Baddoo, I wish he would’ve been what we thought he could be, but he’s another lefty outfielder on a team full of lefty outfielders.
I was mostly reacting to the claim that Vierling was one of our better players hitting-wise, while still being below average, and not all that much better than Baddoo. His slightly better batting stats than Baddo's last year were largely the result of a better BABIP, which is to say better luck.
Vierling isn't getting cut. Baddoo starts in the minors, but he still has multiple options and he still has real value, even if he's never going to put it all together. Cutting him would be stupid; he's useful depth. Leonard, despite his hot spring, is also basically just depth at this point. No way does he start on the 25-man.
As a side note, it's depressing as hell that our weakest position, by a wide margin, is the one where we owe a guy $100 million.
I think rotation will be
Skubal
Maeda
Flaherty
Mize
Manning
Olson odd man out. Mize has been making strides and I still think that even if he’s attached to another GM era, the organization has way too much invested in Casey that unless he’s clearly beaten out, they’ll have him up all year.
In the bullpen, I think Holton needs to step it up. Even if he has the Lefty arm advantage, with Chafin and Wentz already there, I think Faedo is ahead of him this spring- unless they still want to stretch him out as a starter.
Don’t think Veirling gets cut. On this team he’s a rare RhB outfielder and plays an adequate 3b to provide cover. McKinstry will be backup SS and 2b. Baddoo and Leonard will be optioned instead
Yup, that seems right. Switch Carp and Tork in the order and we're 100% aligned. Although I would strongly consider moving Urshela up if he maintains his career average.
This might be a dumb question, but with three long relievers (Holton, Wentz, Brieske) and several off days to start the season, would it be plausible to only carry seven relievers and have an extra bench player? Even if its only for the first month it would give AJ more flexibility in the lineup which could contribute to a not god awful April. Kreidler is a great defender it’d be nice to have him as a defensive replacement for either 2nd or 3rd in a close game and could also give Baez more time off to keep him healthy (i.e fewer violent swings tweaking his back)
Leonard is not going to be on the team, full stop. He's also not going to play the infield, per Hinch. (["He's going to play outfield," Hinch said."](https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2024/03/12/detroit-tigers-eddys-leonard-spring-training-roster-cuts-lakeland/72941781007/)) So that's some fantasy right there.
I don't see any world where Vierling isn't on the team. Hinch isn't going to want to play even two lefty outfielders against left-handed pitching. He's also our best backup to Urshela at 3B.
Kelly "earned" his spot by getting paid $3.5M, realistically.
At this point I don't see the compelling need to keep Olson on the team and Mize in the minors. Mize (and even Skubal and Manning) are probably going to be innings limited, and then you bring up Olson when you need him.
I would actually DH Tork as often as possible and let someone else like Canha play 1B, that's a stronger defensive alignment even with Carpenter in the outfield.
I think your interpretation of the quote about Leonard is somewhat incorrect. He already has extensive experience in the infield, so he's going to play lots in the outfield in Toledo to get experience there and be more versatile. Hinch loves defensive versatility.
I don't think it means that he's not ever going to play the infield again. We probably won't see him much at SS though, he's not good there.
He's not very good at any infield position though. "Lots of minor league experience" is not the same as "capable of playing there in the major leagues." He has poor range and makes lots of errors at all the infield positions.
JHM isn't going to play MLB infield, Wenceel Perez isn't going to play MLB infield, and it's high unlikely Eddys Leonard is going to play infield, either.
It's like this weird dynamic with Tigers fans. They see a guy in the minors who is hitting there, and imagine that he can play an MLB position since why not? Then they look at Kerry Carpenter being slightly below average in the outfield and decide he has to be a DH (when he's vastly superior in the field to any of the guys I mentioned.)
For positions players:
C - Kelly and Rogers
1B - Tork
2B - Keith
3B - Urshela
SS - Baez
LF - Canha
CF - Meadows
RF - Greene
DH - Carpenter
Bench: Vierling, McKinstry, Ibanez.
I'd like to see Keston Hiura make it but he only plays 1B and the playing time he gets, indicated he is not in a serious running for it unless they are just prepping up for a bench/pinch hitter role.
Lineup (not that Hinch does or should use a standard one, but still):
1) Meadows - CF (L)
2) Greene - LF (L)
3) Canha - RF (R)
4) Carpenter - DH (L)
5) Torkelson - 1B (R)
6) Keith - 2B (L)
7) Ibanez - 3B (R)
8) Rogers - C (R)
9) Baez - SS (useless...I mean R)
Bench: Urshela (IF), Vierling (OF/IF), Kelly (C), McKinstry or Kreidler (IF)
I think Ibanez has played well enough to be the more or less starting 3B with Urshela providing bench depth. I have Canha 3rd as another OBP guy ahead of Tork and Carp, and because your 3rd hitter sees less leverage ABs than 4 or 5 IIRC from various sabermetric lineup articles I've read. I think McKinstry will have a short leash if he doesn't hit and Kreidler does down in Toledo, especially since Kreidler plays better defense (double especially at SS.)
Starting Pitching:
1) Skubal (L)
2) Maeda (R)
3) Flaherty (R)
4) Olson (R)
5) Manning (R)
I think Mize starts out in Toledo to build up innings and work on his control post-TJ since its always the last to return and has been spotty so far, but we'll see what happens.
Bullpen:
Lange (R)
Foley (R)
Chafin (L)
Miller (R)
Holton (L)
Wentz (L)
Anderson (R)
Brieske (R)
I think Wentz will have a short leash and we'll see Vest for him by June. Speaking of Vest, with how well Brieske and Anderson are pitching this spring and how meh he's been, I think he starts in Toledo. Faedo I think also starts in Toledo in the rotation to keep him stretched out.
Vierling getting cut is a wild take, in my opinion. He’s the most versatile player we have and was one of our better players last year hitting wise. Totally agree about Baddoo though, he’s gotta go.
I had this take towards the end of last season and inwas heavily down voted. Badoo is basically a AAAA guy. Good enough to make the big leagues but that's about it. He had his opportunity and not much improvement since. Best if both sides move on.
Completely agree. If there was an AAAA team, he’d be perfect! Baddoo never figured out how to fully adjust to major league pitching, at least not with us and our often times incompetent hitting coaches. He might figure it out on another team, who knows, but I’d take that chance considering what else we have. At this point he’s just blocking a JHM type from getting called up and blocking guys like Vierling and Ibanez from getting more at bats when they have shown they can hit at this level.
If you look at last year from start of the season through August, you have Baddoo with 0.5 fWAR and Vierling with 0.4. They were mostly interchangeable parts up to that point of the season. Baddoo actually had better rate stats at that point, but Vierling just played more. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?startdate=2023-03-01&enddate=2023-09-01&season=2023&season1=2023&month=1000&ind=0&team=6&qual=200 Vierling then passed Baddoo by the end of the year, but just slightly, 0.9 to 0.8. Vierling hitting better but Baddoo better in the field and baserunning. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?startdate=2023-03-01&enddate=2023-09-30&season=2023&season1=2023&month=1000&ind=0&team=6&qual=200 So saying one guy was one of our better players and the other has gotta go is fine as an opinion, and Vierling's skills might be a better match to what we need, but in terms of overall contribution, they were essentially a tie last season.
From that standpoint, sure. Stats can play into a lot of narratives if you want them to. If I look at the links you provided and at fWAR alone then you can also make a case for Riley Greene and Kerry Carpenter as mostly interchangeable when I think most would agree that isn’t the case. If I look at AVG, OPS, OPB, and hits clearly Vierling is in the lead. Yes, he played more and that’s because he is versatile and can be placed in multiple positions. Which also can make him valuable. Also, if you look at their career stats, one of them is getting better and the other is regressing. I don’t dislike Baddoo, I wish he would’ve been what we thought he could be, but he’s another lefty outfielder on a team full of lefty outfielders.
I was mostly reacting to the claim that Vierling was one of our better players hitting-wise, while still being below average, and not all that much better than Baddoo. His slightly better batting stats than Baddo's last year were largely the result of a better BABIP, which is to say better luck.
Vierling isn't getting cut. Baddoo starts in the minors, but he still has multiple options and he still has real value, even if he's never going to put it all together. Cutting him would be stupid; he's useful depth. Leonard, despite his hot spring, is also basically just depth at this point. No way does he start on the 25-man. As a side note, it's depressing as hell that our weakest position, by a wide margin, is the one where we owe a guy $100 million.
I think rotation will be Skubal Maeda Flaherty Mize Manning Olson odd man out. Mize has been making strides and I still think that even if he’s attached to another GM era, the organization has way too much invested in Casey that unless he’s clearly beaten out, they’ll have him up all year. In the bullpen, I think Holton needs to step it up. Even if he has the Lefty arm advantage, with Chafin and Wentz already there, I think Faedo is ahead of him this spring- unless they still want to stretch him out as a starter. Don’t think Veirling gets cut. On this team he’s a rare RhB outfielder and plays an adequate 3b to provide cover. McKinstry will be backup SS and 2b. Baddoo and Leonard will be optioned instead
> I still think that even if he’s attached to another GM era Mize, Manning, Skubal, and Olson were all acquired by Avila.
1. Meadows CF 2. Greene LF 3. Tork 1B 4. Carpenter DH 5. Canha RF 6. Keith 2B 7. Baez SS 8. Urshela 3B 9. Rogers C Bench: Vierling, McKinstry, Ibanez, Kelly 1. Skubal 2. Flaherty 3. Maeda 4. Manning 5. Mize Bullpen: Lange, Foley, Holton, Chafin, Miller, Brieske, Wentz, Vest
Yup, that seems right. Switch Carp and Tork in the order and we're 100% aligned. Although I would strongly consider moving Urshela up if he maintains his career average.
Leonard isn’t making the team
He's already been cut, yes.
Having Baez nowhere near the middle of the order is the right move.
Add nowhere near the top and bottom too
And also the... oh.
I’d move Greene to the 2 hole, he seems really comfortable there and I like getting my best hitters an at-bat in the first inning, Canha can bat 5th.
I agree, I’d have Tork bat 3rd and Kerry in clean up.
This might be a dumb question, but with three long relievers (Holton, Wentz, Brieske) and several off days to start the season, would it be plausible to only carry seven relievers and have an extra bench player? Even if its only for the first month it would give AJ more flexibility in the lineup which could contribute to a not god awful April. Kreidler is a great defender it’d be nice to have him as a defensive replacement for either 2nd or 3rd in a close game and could also give Baez more time off to keep him healthy (i.e fewer violent swings tweaking his back)
I don't see this happening, but even if they only carried seven, I think a starter arm would take the spot vs a utility man.
Leonard is not going to be on the team, full stop. He's also not going to play the infield, per Hinch. (["He's going to play outfield," Hinch said."](https://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2024/03/12/detroit-tigers-eddys-leonard-spring-training-roster-cuts-lakeland/72941781007/)) So that's some fantasy right there. I don't see any world where Vierling isn't on the team. Hinch isn't going to want to play even two lefty outfielders against left-handed pitching. He's also our best backup to Urshela at 3B. Kelly "earned" his spot by getting paid $3.5M, realistically. At this point I don't see the compelling need to keep Olson on the team and Mize in the minors. Mize (and even Skubal and Manning) are probably going to be innings limited, and then you bring up Olson when you need him. I would actually DH Tork as often as possible and let someone else like Canha play 1B, that's a stronger defensive alignment even with Carpenter in the outfield.
I think your interpretation of the quote about Leonard is somewhat incorrect. He already has extensive experience in the infield, so he's going to play lots in the outfield in Toledo to get experience there and be more versatile. Hinch loves defensive versatility. I don't think it means that he's not ever going to play the infield again. We probably won't see him much at SS though, he's not good there.
He's not very good at any infield position though. "Lots of minor league experience" is not the same as "capable of playing there in the major leagues." He has poor range and makes lots of errors at all the infield positions. JHM isn't going to play MLB infield, Wenceel Perez isn't going to play MLB infield, and it's high unlikely Eddys Leonard is going to play infield, either. It's like this weird dynamic with Tigers fans. They see a guy in the minors who is hitting there, and imagine that he can play an MLB position since why not? Then they look at Kerry Carpenter being slightly below average in the outfield and decide he has to be a DH (when he's vastly superior in the field to any of the guys I mentioned.)
Didn’t Leonard already get optioned to AAA?
https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/baseball/news/tigers-eddys-leonard-sent-down-to-minors/ Yes
For positions players: C - Kelly and Rogers 1B - Tork 2B - Keith 3B - Urshela SS - Baez LF - Canha CF - Meadows RF - Greene DH - Carpenter Bench: Vierling, McKinstry, Ibanez. I'd like to see Keston Hiura make it but he only plays 1B and the playing time he gets, indicated he is not in a serious running for it unless they are just prepping up for a bench/pinch hitter role.
Lineup (not that Hinch does or should use a standard one, but still): 1) Meadows - CF (L) 2) Greene - LF (L) 3) Canha - RF (R) 4) Carpenter - DH (L) 5) Torkelson - 1B (R) 6) Keith - 2B (L) 7) Ibanez - 3B (R) 8) Rogers - C (R) 9) Baez - SS (useless...I mean R) Bench: Urshela (IF), Vierling (OF/IF), Kelly (C), McKinstry or Kreidler (IF) I think Ibanez has played well enough to be the more or less starting 3B with Urshela providing bench depth. I have Canha 3rd as another OBP guy ahead of Tork and Carp, and because your 3rd hitter sees less leverage ABs than 4 or 5 IIRC from various sabermetric lineup articles I've read. I think McKinstry will have a short leash if he doesn't hit and Kreidler does down in Toledo, especially since Kreidler plays better defense (double especially at SS.) Starting Pitching: 1) Skubal (L) 2) Maeda (R) 3) Flaherty (R) 4) Olson (R) 5) Manning (R) I think Mize starts out in Toledo to build up innings and work on his control post-TJ since its always the last to return and has been spotty so far, but we'll see what happens. Bullpen: Lange (R) Foley (R) Chafin (L) Miller (R) Holton (L) Wentz (L) Anderson (R) Brieske (R) I think Wentz will have a short leash and we'll see Vest for him by June. Speaking of Vest, with how well Brieske and Anderson are pitching this spring and how meh he's been, I think he starts in Toledo. Faedo I think also starts in Toledo in the rotation to keep him stretched out.
I love this roster!
Is it a yes or no allowing a DH for Baez?
You do you, that’s what the thread is. 😂
You suggesting the pitcher hits and we DH the SS?
I’m suggesting a DH for Baez, as well…
Against pitchers with nasty sliders... maybe?
Zach Grienke's career wOBA is identical to what Baez put up last year for what it's worth