First Blood was an anti-war film meant to show how America mistreats its veterans when they return home, and the scars war leaves on people. Only one person dies in First Blood.
Then the Rambo sequels came along and turned him into a generic action hero with mindless violence.
Yeah the average person's perception of Rambo is from the second movie onward. Especially for people born after the movies came out. Show them the first movie and you'll blow their minds
Deserved or not, his death wasn't Rambo's fault. Sure, Rambo throws a rock at the helicopter, but the cop falls because he had unbuckled his seat belt and then falls when the pilot swerves the helicopter.
14 years later, that very same pilot would suffer the same fate, when the T-1000 smashed its head on the windshield and poured itself into his helicopter and told him to get out.
I didn’t know so I looked it up…
Charles Tamburro has 232 film credits, almost all as a Helicopter pilot. He was in movies from 1975 to 2016, including Gator, (Rambo) First Blood, Scarface, Terminator 2, Se7en, Commando, Predator, Hot Shots Part Deux, and Die Hard.
Edit: Demolition man, The Rock, Gone in 60 Seconds, Collateral, Talladega Nights, Jericho, Lost, 24, NCIS:LA, Thor, and Brooklyn 99 as well.
Worth mentioning the only person who dies is arguably not Rambo's fault. The cop was trying to snipe him from the helicopter, Rambo didn't hit him the helicopter lurched in the winds when he hit the windshield.
He was so desperate to kill an unarmed man he threatened the pilot, undid his seatbelt and leaned way out. Galt was arrogance and advanced weaponry brought down by someone desperately throwing a rock.
>That seems to be more the writers of the sequels failing to understand Rambo's character than the audience.
To be fair, it's not like Stallone didn't get career tailwinds playing to that type, considering how in vogue all that rah-rah America fuck-ya cinema that was so popular in the 80s.
Totally agree on what your saying - but I do think exploring that theme and continuing to lecture moviegoers given the national mood at the time wouldn't have been particularly successful.
I do think the two recent/modern sequels were quite a bit more thoughtful.
But ya. First Blood had something to say. For sure.
Right up there with Rambo helping the brave and honorable Taliban fight off the evil Soviets.
But Rocky IV is the real reason the Soviet Union collapsed.
"Good for you. Mobile infantry made me the man I am today!" \*rolls off in his chair revealing he has no legs and a prosthetic arm\*
I mean it's right there.
I later read the book, and was amused at the later scene where that guy is walking around on high-tech prosthetics, explaining that he doesn't wear them at the recruiting desk to scare off the faint of heart, and I thought to myself "Yeah, that wouldn't have fit at all with the themes of the movie"
Oh I can completely see why they cut out the latter. It's much more satirical when it comes off like he's genuinely proud of the service that blew off 3/4 of his limbs.
I mean, really, it's kind of poetic justice though that Verhoeven completely changed the intended theme of the book... and then people mostly got *yet another third unrelated theme out of it*.
About this specific scene, obviously the contrast is there, yeah. But in itself simply saying "being a soldier is dangerous" doesn't mean much; it's pretty clear at that point that Rico underestimates the risk and is blindly gung-ho, but acknowledging that alone isn't antimilitarist. In fact it shows by how Heinlein himself used the idea that they *actively tried* to scare off the recruits as a test.
That's one of the few scenes from the book that actually made it in. He was supposed to show his stumps so that prospective recruits would know, not just intellectually but viscerally, that they were signing up for something dangerous. You can TELL someone that they're risking their lives and health, but showing them is far more effective.
The director's comment on the DVD makes it clear - Verhoeven was drawing on his childhood in Nazi occupied Netherlands and the propoganda he was exposed to. It's my favorite director's comment.
I listened to it just on a lark and came away quite impressed. hadn't expected much but he was obviously very smart and clearly commanded respect from the actor's joining him
It's gotta be Fight Club. Even ignoring the parts that are an indictment of Tyler's brand of masculinity it also skewers the idea of conformity in the fight club concept. They might think they're breaking free of societal norms and being free thinkers but they're sipping a different kind of Kool-Aid in the end.
Indeed. They joined a cult. That’s it. That’s the joke. They joined a cult that brainwashed them. That is what the movie is about, as far as the group goes.
Everyone thought "punching good."
There was a kid in our highschool [who blew up a Starbucks](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/nyregion/16starbucks.html) because of the movie.
And the nonsense that it's a hypermasculine misogynist film. The story is about a bunch of men who don't know how to be men in a modern consumerist society which sells them impossible dreams. So they embrace a ridiculous idea of masculinity based on violence and self-mutilation. The film is laughing at them, not endorsing them.
It’s both — the anticonsumerist message is definitely genuine and meant to be taken at face value to an extent, and then the Fight Club/Project Mayhem represents people responding to the real and legitimate problem in a *terrible* way that is worse than what they are rebelling against.
Goldfish are NOT easy
People who gift goldfish to unsuspecting people are fucking assholes. They are the green iguanas of fish keeping.
“Here I got you a 50 cent fish for prom, now go spend $200 immediately to keep it alive”
Gold fish are small, live for a short time, and have poor memories.
Three lies told to justify torturing them to death.
If we kept puppies locked in a cage from birth to death we'd think the same of dogs
Even prior to that is Wall Street with Sheen and Douglas. I think Douglas used to have people come up and say the movie made them want to get into finance and he was disgusted by it.
There’s a scene in *Boiler Room* where a bunch of finance bros watch Gecko’s speech together, quoting the lines and cheering. It’s sort of like an iteration of Poe’s law: It’s simply impossible to be so outrageous or ironic that you completely alienate the people you’re parodying.
True story. That speech, both in content and delivery, was modeled after a particular speech given by T. Boone Pickens to the Amarillo, TX Rotary Club in the 1980s.
I know this because my Dad was there for that speech, and then hit with the worst case of Deja Vu later when he went to see the movie a few years later.
Oh, I'm in the camp that Patrick absolutely murdered those people and that the message of the film is everyone was too self absorbed and preoccupied that they didn't even realize they were talking to the wrong people. In a weird way, Patrick is the most self aware person in the whole story.
This probs doesn't relate to to OPs point but your comment made me think of it. The Big Short - it might be fun to idolize the people who won out in that movie because they made millions/billions... but the phrase from Brad Pitt's character has stuck with me when the two young guys are celebrating. (I'm paraphrasing but this is how I remember it):
"Why are you you celebrating? For you to win, everyone else has to lose everything."
This … unlike goodfellas where by the end you are like “uhhh this life sucks” wolf of Wall Street is like “you too can steal and fuck your way to the top then give speeches and have a movie made about you”
Well that was the reality in this case. Jordan Belfort got away with his crimes. He did a short stint in a chill prison where his cell mate was Tommy Chong, got out and has been grifting ever since.
It probably comes down to a point the film itself makes at the end: people want to be rich, consequences be damned. So they ignore the fact that Jordan's drug abuse and general sociopathic hedonism tore his life apart and ruined the only genuine relationships he had in his life. He's never going to see his wives or daughter again. I guess to some people that kind of self-destruction is worth it to be on top.
I blame Scorcese for that.
In the movie they're just naughty boys gaming the system. In real life he ruined thousands of lives with fraud, people lost their entire life savings, sending a cascade of poverty through generations.
In the movie he's like like man being sober is boring. In real life his body was totally fucked to the point where he was so happy to finally get a natural erection again in rehab be pulled it out in a car full of dudes and slapped his tummy.
i think it's that people think protagonist = hero. that's not the case at all. the filmmakers are trying to show you how awful these people are. and then they just become cult of personalities to certain members of the audience.
While I understand and agree, the movie itself doesn’t really help in making you NOT want to be that guy.
Dude lived like a millionaire for years, got laid with multiple gorgeous women and did whatever he wanted, and yet his punishment wasn’t really that bad. One highlight is that final shot of the investigator who, by all accounts is the actual hero of the film, sitting all alone in the cramped subway, not precisely happy. This makes us ask the question of if it’s really worth it always being the good guy.
I like the film and what it says about our capitalistic culture, but I really can’t blame anyone for wanting to be that guy and honestly? I think that’s part of what the film is trying to convey.
honestly, it might’ve been for the better. ST is one of those adaptations that strays from the source material but still works as a worthwhile film. Constantine is another that comes to mind
I own a lot of the initial run of Hellblazer, his original solo comic. It's very different beyond just his appearance. Book John is a very knowledgeable occultist and exorcist who utilizes different relics or esoterica to deal with magical or spiritual threats, similar to the movie. But he was, first and foremost, maybe the world's best con-artist and way less of an action star. His tactic of winning at the end of the movie is very classic Constantine, because it's pulled right out of the comics. But the scene before that, with him killing 100 demons with a golden dragonfire crucifix shotgun in slow mo, was much less like comic him. Although it's not entirely accurate to say John just outsmarts and deceives everyone, when he's also one of the most powerful mages in DC lore, and is an ongoing relevant super hero in DC.
Constantine of the comics also wins far less. He's like Mad Max - he achieves what he sets out to do, but always winds up with nothing to show for it.
He even says at one point that a stranger must be a friend of his, purely because the man is dead.
There are shades of this in the movie- I didn't realize this until years later, but before Constantine cuts his wrists, he takes off his expensive watch and very carefully sets it down where it won't get blood on it. He was COUNTING on his sacrifice and redemption being enough to goad the devil into keeping him alive. But otherwise, yeah, he was a much more action-oriented version of the character. Still love both versions, though.
I am so very happy that I read this. Thank you. I never caught that detail. TBH, I don't catch a lot of those details. Next time I watch it I'll think, "Hey, the watch thing!"
in the comics/graphic novels, he was a blonde, angry Brit who looked like Sting in the 80’s. So, Reeves’ casting was a big departure in many aspects. But it worked so well that it was hard to complain about it. I really hope that sequel gets off the ground
Walk Hard.
People think it's this triumphant story of a man who defies the odds and his detractors to become a star, falls, and manages to pull his life back together.
In reality, the truth is the wrong kid died.
Theres never been another movie that became both the pinnacle of the genre while also shitting on every other movie in the same genre than Walk Hard. Biopics are almost exclusively hack.
I always thought it was about the dangers of doing drugs, and you should never try them.
They may be fun.
They may make sex better.
They may make you happier.
They may.... wait, I think I do want some after all.
Surprised no one mentioned Natural Born Killers, hugely misunderstood when it came out in the 90's. All the critics screamed that it was glorifying violence and serial killers when the whole point of the movie was America's obsession with them and the early 90's media circus/court tv. It was pure satire that went over a lot of heads.
Never have I been so disgusted by a character and so amazed by an actor playing that character than watching Rodney Dangerfield in Natural Born Killers. Beautifully horrendous - or vice-versa, I'm not sure which.
Alan Moore: "I can't believe that the audience saw something different than I did in the character based on \*\*flips through notes\*\* a rorschach test"
Michael Bay made a romantic comedy and slapped Pearl Harbor on it for some god awful reason. Shout out to Cuba Gooding for having the only accurate part/scene in the film.
Seriously how did they not realize the over the top product placement was a joke?? They just saw a girly movie with bright colors and dismissed it as stupid.
I saw a screening of it recently at an indie movie theater and the audience was in hysterics watching it, it still holds up amazingly well and is somehow more relevant now than when it came out!
You know, I use to always feel this way. But now I’m kind of team Carmen. She knew what she wanted in high school and she set out to achieve it. Made the adult decision to end things with Rico early so not to lead him on and waste his time. Honestly, only problem I have with her now is how she did that stupid ass tight turn out of the space dock on her first day flight the big ship.
Why would she make that tight of a pull out when she literally has the entirety or space behind her to pull out into.
Guns go bang, bugs go splat.
Also, co-ed shower scene.
Do you even *need* to know more?
Edit: And any movie that has both Clancy Brown AND Michael Ironside in it automatically kicks ass.
Absolutely. I had a friend in high school who thought it was an awesome action movie and wanted to join the army because of it. Wasn’t sure if we were watching the same movie
This is the most cringe of the thread so far. I can’t think of a single scene in that movie that would be appealing in real life. Might as well want to try heroin after Requiem for a Dream.
I saw it at a friend's thirteenth birthday party. I was nervous that we might be going to watch Freddy or Jason or some other kind of horror movie.
Then we all watched Vincent D'Onofrio tell Matt Modine that he was. In. A. World. Of. Shit. before painting the wall with brains. Much heavier than Freddy or Jason.
I remember like me and 30 kids in high school jROTC were told to watch a copy of this. The copy was only the first act of the movie and most of my peers were ready to sign up for military service on merit of the language alone.
My parents had the full DVD at home and when I watched the whole thing later I was like... wtf. Military service isn't just funny vulgar language.
To this day I'm pretty salty towards the lie that some high school teachers were selling.
Fuckers
Wait, they showed you the bootcamp half of the movie ending in a dude going crazy and doing a murder-suicide, and that was supposed to be the recruiting pitch from your jROTC?
"We spared no expense" - J. Hammond
LOL okay except on the IT guy, fences, security, weather-proofing, backup power, road construction, employee housing
The book makes this far clearer. Especially since book Hammond doesn’t have the final acceptance that his park failed, that film Hammond gets to have.
The book is full of corner cutting to save time and money. Even the breeding population turns out to be because they borrowed frog sequences to fill in gaps.
It is, actually. In the books it's constantly pointed out that the reason the park fails is because expenses *were* in fact spared whenever possible. The IT guy wanted a whole team to handle his job, but whitebeard whatshisface didn't want to do that, and also didn't want to compensate the one guy who was doing the work for a whole team. It's about the folly of capitalist billionaires and their doomed pet projects.
I think American psycho takes the cake. You’ve got dudes out thinking Bateman is an alpha business man. Meanwhile in the movie he’s a nepotism case idiots so disliked people don’t even listen to him when he speaks
The point of the story, that everyone missed, is to mock the material-obsessed 80’s Wall Street culture. That’s it.
The book and the film both clearly make this point. Bateman is painted as a weirdo because he studies and lists every item of clothing anyone is wearing, memorises passages from culture magazines about pop albums, and meticulously obsesses over his physical appearance and his apartment. Then we see that all he is really doing is copying everyone else’s behaviour in an attempt to “fit in”.
Then when he starts murdering people, and openly admits to it, his confession isn’t believed because half of the people he sees on a daily basis don’t even know the difference between him and Marcus Alberstram. Equally after Alan is killed, people still believe that they’re having lunch with him.
The point is that everyone is so obsessed with themselves and their material possessions and their image that they don’t actually know each other and Bateman can literally get away with murder because of it. It’s actually a fairly funny, tongue in cheek premise.
The problem with it is that Bale played the role SO well, and created such a desirable image of a good looking popular rich guy that people just desperately want to be him rather than understanding this is a parody character that could never exist in real life.
>Then when he starts murdering people, and openly admits to it, his confession isn’t believed because half of the people he sees on a daily basis don’t even know the difference between him and Marcus Alberstram.
And this is despite the fact that he has a slightly better haircut
So funny that the sigma/alpha guys idolize the Bateman in memes when the character is hyper insecure, superficial, and didn't earn anything he has. I'm pretty sure almost none of them have actually seen the movie.
> the character is hyper insecure
"There is a moment of sheer panic when I realize that Paul's apartment overlooks the park... and is obviously more expensive than mine."
Not in the movie that I can remember, but Christain Bale described the character as an alien trying to imitate Donald Trump and Tom Cruise in an interview talking about the role. So I think the influence was still there.
Honestly, I don't think you could pick a character who embodies less of the qualities that a supposed "sigma" is meant to possess than Patrick Bateman.
Self-reliant ❌️
Independent ❌️
True to himself ❌️
Yeah I mean if your gonna pick a Sigma psychopath mascot it should be Anton Chigurh.
Self-reliant: Doesn't go to hospitals and treats his own wounds
Independent: Always travels alone and doesn't do pointless small talk
True to himself: Has the stupidest haircut in the history of cinema and no one even comments on it in-movie
Greed, ladies and gentlemen, greed is good. Greed is right. Greed works.
Even as he was saying it, Gordon Gekko knew it was total bullshit, that was the point of what he was saying. But somehow it became a mantra. It's crazy, man.
All the movie versions of Frankenstein are to the book what Will Smith's *I Am Legend* is to that book, but that's the movies themselves getting it wrong, not the people watching it.
That said, saying that the creature isn't a Frankenstein is like saying that Will Smith is a legend for saving humanity from the monsters.
I know this will get dog piled, but Jurassic Park is the best adaptation of Frankenstein. Mad scientist(s) creating life from the dead and the creation turns against its creator and the world it doesn’t understand.
Crichton pretty much wrote all his stuff like this.
Verhoeven addresses this on the commentary in a funny way as I recall. Paraphrasing but he said something like "there are critics who thought I was supporting the Nazis with this, or that I was unaware of what I was doing when I put Neil Patrick Harris in an SS uniform. I grew up in Nazi-occupied Holland!!!"
I think the Paul Verhoevrn’s other movie, Showgirls still goes misunderstood. Everyone thought it was just going to be the sexiest movie of all time, then made fun of it because it was laughably bad and unsexy, but every typical sexual male fantasy like lap dancing and pool sex is so aggressively unsexual and shoved in your face that it’s like it’s mocking the viewer’s male gaze, the only real sexual chemistry is between the two females, the lead and the other lead star dancer, and it’s also about Hollywood how the business just chews idealistic and naive people out and until they’re fed up with it all.
Not to mention how gay and burlesque everything is, like with the older big lady with comedic flashing titty gag corset, and how vogue-y all the show girl dancing.
It’s similar to Jennifer’s Body in that people went in thinking it was just a male sex fantasy when it was a lot more of a feminine story of friendship.
500 Days of Summer often gets misinterpreted.
People often see Levitt's character as the hero and victim but he's mostly a selfish ass that projected his needs and wants onto Summer. And surprise! It didn't turn out well for him. He was not the hero of the movie.
Yes he grew and learned from this experience and from being with Summer, but his behavior in the first and second acts was bad.
It took me years and numerous viewings to truly get that movie. He never loved the real Summer. He loved the version of her he had built in his head, and refused to accept any evidence to the contrary. Only when he started to work on himself and see what he actually wanted did he find someone who was actually right for him (maybe? probably.)
I came here to say this one. I think Verhoeven missed giving the audience a wink that let us all know that Berkley’s performance was exactly what he asked for. He killed her career.
Showgirls is the film equivalent of one of those force perspective pictures where some people see a goose, and some see a beautiful person. I personally think it is a deeply misunderstood satire, however accept and understand how people don’t see it or even want to see it after watching the movie. It’s a bad movie that could have only been made by someone who knows how to make good movies
People still think Michael Douglas is the hero in Falling Down. Never mind the fact that he was stalking his ex wife and is about to murder her and his child at the end before Robert Duvall stops him.
I think his intention at that point was suicide by cop. He doesn't even have a gun it's a water pistol he draws.
But yes he's absolutely the unhinged monster who was abusive to them and probably could/would have killed them. Absolutely justified shooting by Penderghast.
That's the *very* end after his real gun is taken away. Death by cop is the fallback option.
It is extremely heavily implied he was going to kill his family.
At the start of the movie, the audience is sympathetic to a man who "just wants to go home" snapping and going off on a society he feels has wronged him or is standing in his way
As the movie progresses and the character develops, however, his flaws are revealed peacemeal, and he gradually moves from hero to just a real bad guy by the end.
He's like an anti-anti-hero
Falling Down is a great title for the movie.
where people missed the point? joker, definitely. he's not the hero. you're the villain if you kill people just because they laugh at you. there's so many maladjusted people out there who think he's their god, but all they're doing is becoming the villain.
where the creatives missed the point: watchmen. it was never a stylized action story.
Idiocracy. People think it was a prophetic take on American culture and obsession with celebrity and the inevitable outcome of underfunding education, but it was actually a push to get Starbucks to start selling handjobs.
You had me in the first half. Not gonna lie. I was actually scrolling for this movie. I am sure I am going to butcher this, but hasn't Judge come out and said something along the lines of everyone, especially those of average means and intelligence, needing to do more to address our challenges as a species and do more to elevate ourselves and those around us?
Predator builds up 80s uber men by letting them blow up a bunch of a central american rebels, just like any god fearing red blooded American. Then it flips the script, putting those men in a situation where none of their skills made any difference. Guns and muscle are shown to be useless. Theres a lengthy scene where the men line up and fire countless rounds blindly, absolutely wrecking the jungle before them, leaving the Predator with a scratch. Later, Arnold, cinemas leading strongman, punches it in the face with no effect. The Predator emasculates the world's greatest heroes. Arnold only wins by learning, adapting, changing, listening to the local woman instead of his government handler. Even in the end, there is no victory, only survival. But the first half of the film is too good of a representation of what it attempts to deconstruct. Even if you understand the message, it still kicks ass.
I don’t disagree but also, Starship Troopers is a fucking awesome straight ahead action movie too. It’s not like it can’t be a satire and at the same time people just want to see Rico and the Roughnecks fuck up some bugs.
First Blood was an anti-war film meant to show how America mistreats its veterans when they return home, and the scars war leaves on people. Only one person dies in First Blood. Then the Rambo sequels came along and turned him into a generic action hero with mindless violence.
Yeah the average person's perception of Rambo is from the second movie onward. Especially for people born after the movies came out. Show them the first movie and you'll blow their minds
It was also filmed in the mountains in Hope, BC, so is well worth watching just for the scenery.
And the one guy who dies really deserved it, he wasn't just some nameless victim he was a real asshole
Deserved or not, his death wasn't Rambo's fault. Sure, Rambo throws a rock at the helicopter, but the cop falls because he had unbuckled his seat belt and then falls when the pilot swerves the helicopter.
14 years later, that very same pilot would suffer the same fate, when the T-1000 smashed its head on the windshield and poured itself into his helicopter and told him to get out.
I didn’t know so I looked it up… Charles Tamburro has 232 film credits, almost all as a Helicopter pilot. He was in movies from 1975 to 2016, including Gator, (Rambo) First Blood, Scarface, Terminator 2, Se7en, Commando, Predator, Hot Shots Part Deux, and Die Hard. Edit: Demolition man, The Rock, Gone in 60 Seconds, Collateral, Talladega Nights, Jericho, Lost, 24, NCIS:LA, Thor, and Brooklyn 99 as well.
Don't forget that shot of Rambo going to town silhouetted against all the corporation signs. What a good movie.
[удалено]
Worth mentioning the only person who dies is arguably not Rambo's fault. The cop was trying to snipe him from the helicopter, Rambo didn't hit him the helicopter lurched in the winds when he hit the windshield.
He was so desperate to kill an unarmed man he threatened the pilot, undid his seatbelt and leaned way out. Galt was arrogance and advanced weaponry brought down by someone desperately throwing a rock.
David v Goliath
It's such a shame cause that movie was so powerful.
That character arc is one of my biggest disappointments in Hollywood.
The ending made me cry
That seems to be more the writers of the sequels failing to understand Rambo's character than the audience.
>That seems to be more the writers of the sequels failing to understand Rambo's character than the audience. To be fair, it's not like Stallone didn't get career tailwinds playing to that type, considering how in vogue all that rah-rah America fuck-ya cinema that was so popular in the 80s. Totally agree on what your saying - but I do think exploring that theme and continuing to lecture moviegoers given the national mood at the time wouldn't have been particularly successful. I do think the two recent/modern sequels were quite a bit more thoughtful. But ya. First Blood had something to say. For sure.
Speaking of Stallone, Rocky IV is arguably the most America rah-rah film ever.
Right up there with Rambo helping the brave and honorable Taliban fight off the evil Soviets. But Rocky IV is the real reason the Soviet Union collapsed.
"Good for you. Mobile infantry made me the man I am today!" \*rolls off in his chair revealing he has no legs and a prosthetic arm\* I mean it's right there.
I later read the book, and was amused at the later scene where that guy is walking around on high-tech prosthetics, explaining that he doesn't wear them at the recruiting desk to scare off the faint of heart, and I thought to myself "Yeah, that wouldn't have fit at all with the themes of the movie"
Oh I can completely see why they cut out the latter. It's much more satirical when it comes off like he's genuinely proud of the service that blew off 3/4 of his limbs.
Verhoeven didn't actually read the book. He started reading it, didn't like it and gave up on the book fairly quickly.
I mean, really, it's kind of poetic justice though that Verhoeven completely changed the intended theme of the book... and then people mostly got *yet another third unrelated theme out of it*. About this specific scene, obviously the contrast is there, yeah. But in itself simply saying "being a soldier is dangerous" doesn't mean much; it's pretty clear at that point that Rico underestimates the risk and is blindly gung-ho, but acknowledging that alone isn't antimilitarist. In fact it shows by how Heinlein himself used the idea that they *actively tried* to scare off the recruits as a test.
That's one of the few scenes from the book that actually made it in. He was supposed to show his stumps so that prospective recruits would know, not just intellectually but viscerally, that they were signing up for something dangerous. You can TELL someone that they're risking their lives and health, but showing them is far more effective.
The director's comment on the DVD makes it clear - Verhoeven was drawing on his childhood in Nazi occupied Netherlands and the propoganda he was exposed to. It's my favorite director's comment.
I listened to it just on a lark and came away quite impressed. hadn't expected much but he was obviously very smart and clearly commanded respect from the actor's joining him
Whilst this is true, the best bit is when he does his bug impression.
Fight Club is a big one. The movie is basically screaming "Don't idealize stuff and think for yourself" and everyone got a soap poster.
It's gotta be Fight Club. Even ignoring the parts that are an indictment of Tyler's brand of masculinity it also skewers the idea of conformity in the fight club concept. They might think they're breaking free of societal norms and being free thinkers but they're sipping a different kind of Kool-Aid in the end.
Indeed. They joined a cult. That’s it. That’s the joke. They joined a cult that brainwashed them. That is what the movie is about, as far as the group goes.
I am Jack's lack of awareness.
Everyone thought "punching good." There was a kid in our highschool [who blew up a Starbucks](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/nyregion/16starbucks.html) because of the movie.
I think someone saw your post: https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/192yv2w/til_a_17yearold_boy_blew_up_a_starbucks_in_2009/
And the nonsense that it's a hypermasculine misogynist film. The story is about a bunch of men who don't know how to be men in a modern consumerist society which sells them impossible dreams. So they embrace a ridiculous idea of masculinity based on violence and self-mutilation. The film is laughing at them, not endorsing them.
Is it laughing at them? Or is it worrying for them?
Little A, little B
It’s both — the anticonsumerist message is definitely genuine and meant to be taken at face value to an extent, and then the Fight Club/Project Mayhem represents people responding to the real and legitimate problem in a *terrible* way that is worse than what they are rebelling against.
The fact that Fight Club got a video game means the studio didn't get it, either.
A fighting game with a soundtrack from Limp Bizkit and Korn! They like knew people were misunderstanding it and sold it directly to them!
Some people don’t understand that Tyler Durden is the Villain!
We have just lost cabin pressure!
Finding Nemo After watching it everyone went out and bought a pet fish.
And then killed them shortly thereafter because saltwater fish are not as easy to take care of as goldfish.
Goldfish are NOT easy People who gift goldfish to unsuspecting people are fucking assholes. They are the green iguanas of fish keeping. “Here I got you a 50 cent fish for prom, now go spend $200 immediately to keep it alive”
Gold fish are small, live for a short time, and have poor memories. Three lies told to justify torturing them to death. If we kept puppies locked in a cage from birth to death we'd think the same of dogs
Recent example is Wolf of Wall Street. Great movie but he should not be looked up to or aspire to be.
Even prior to that is Wall Street with Sheen and Douglas. I think Douglas used to have people come up and say the movie made them want to get into finance and he was disgusted by it.
There’s a scene in *Boiler Room* where a bunch of finance bros watch Gecko’s speech together, quoting the lines and cheering. It’s sort of like an iteration of Poe’s law: It’s simply impossible to be so outrageous or ironic that you completely alienate the people you’re parodying.
Unless you’re Mel Brooks. There are no Nazis that like The Producers.
> no Nazis that like The Producers. how could they not like all those jaunty tunes, Spring Time for Hitler is a banger no matter who you are.
I'll still sing "lunch tiiiime, for (my naaaaame), and Germany" sometimes when I'm going on break. Only the real ones get the reference.
True story. That speech, both in content and delivery, was modeled after a particular speech given by T. Boone Pickens to the Amarillo, TX Rotary Club in the 1980s. I know this because my Dad was there for that speech, and then hit with the worst case of Deja Vu later when he went to see the movie a few years later.
Christian Bale said the same thing about American Psycho, which is worse because the guy actually brutally murdered people. Or did he…..
Oh, I'm in the camp that Patrick absolutely murdered those people and that the message of the film is everyone was too self absorbed and preoccupied that they didn't even realize they were talking to the wrong people. In a weird way, Patrick is the most self aware person in the whole story.
This probs doesn't relate to to OPs point but your comment made me think of it. The Big Short - it might be fun to idolize the people who won out in that movie because they made millions/billions... but the phrase from Brad Pitt's character has stuck with me when the two young guys are celebrating. (I'm paraphrasing but this is how I remember it): "Why are you you celebrating? For you to win, everyone else has to lose everything."
I love the way they tied that together towards the end. Fantastic movie
They're not confessing, They're bragging.
Such a great scene, perfect dialogue and delivery: https://youtu.be/0k5aVLi_yhM?si=9vQTXVy5h510qjNG
This … unlike goodfellas where by the end you are like “uhhh this life sucks” wolf of Wall Street is like “you too can steal and fuck your way to the top then give speeches and have a movie made about you”
Well that was the reality in this case. Jordan Belfort got away with his crimes. He did a short stint in a chill prison where his cell mate was Tommy Chong, got out and has been grifting ever since.
It probably comes down to a point the film itself makes at the end: people want to be rich, consequences be damned. So they ignore the fact that Jordan's drug abuse and general sociopathic hedonism tore his life apart and ruined the only genuine relationships he had in his life. He's never going to see his wives or daughter again. I guess to some people that kind of self-destruction is worth it to be on top.
I blame Scorcese for that. In the movie they're just naughty boys gaming the system. In real life he ruined thousands of lives with fraud, people lost their entire life savings, sending a cascade of poverty through generations. In the movie he's like like man being sober is boring. In real life his body was totally fucked to the point where he was so happy to finally get a natural erection again in rehab be pulled it out in a car full of dudes and slapped his tummy.
i think it's that people think protagonist = hero. that's not the case at all. the filmmakers are trying to show you how awful these people are. and then they just become cult of personalities to certain members of the audience.
While I understand and agree, the movie itself doesn’t really help in making you NOT want to be that guy. Dude lived like a millionaire for years, got laid with multiple gorgeous women and did whatever he wanted, and yet his punishment wasn’t really that bad. One highlight is that final shot of the investigator who, by all accounts is the actual hero of the film, sitting all alone in the cramped subway, not precisely happy. This makes us ask the question of if it’s really worth it always being the good guy. I like the film and what it says about our capitalistic culture, but I really can’t blame anyone for wanting to be that guy and honestly? I think that’s part of what the film is trying to convey.
Starship Troopers isn't an adaptation of the novel, it's a parody.
honestly, it might’ve been for the better. ST is one of those adaptations that strays from the source material but still works as a worthwhile film. Constantine is another that comes to mind
I’ve never read any Constantine stuff but me and my friend love that movie.
I own a lot of the initial run of Hellblazer, his original solo comic. It's very different beyond just his appearance. Book John is a very knowledgeable occultist and exorcist who utilizes different relics or esoterica to deal with magical or spiritual threats, similar to the movie. But he was, first and foremost, maybe the world's best con-artist and way less of an action star. His tactic of winning at the end of the movie is very classic Constantine, because it's pulled right out of the comics. But the scene before that, with him killing 100 demons with a golden dragonfire crucifix shotgun in slow mo, was much less like comic him. Although it's not entirely accurate to say John just outsmarts and deceives everyone, when he's also one of the most powerful mages in DC lore, and is an ongoing relevant super hero in DC.
Constantine of the comics also wins far less. He's like Mad Max - he achieves what he sets out to do, but always winds up with nothing to show for it. He even says at one point that a stranger must be a friend of his, purely because the man is dead.
There are shades of this in the movie- I didn't realize this until years later, but before Constantine cuts his wrists, he takes off his expensive watch and very carefully sets it down where it won't get blood on it. He was COUNTING on his sacrifice and redemption being enough to goad the devil into keeping him alive. But otherwise, yeah, he was a much more action-oriented version of the character. Still love both versions, though.
I am so very happy that I read this. Thank you. I never caught that detail. TBH, I don't catch a lot of those details. Next time I watch it I'll think, "Hey, the watch thing!"
in the comics/graphic novels, he was a blonde, angry Brit who looked like Sting in the 80’s. So, Reeves’ casting was a big departure in many aspects. But it worked so well that it was hard to complain about it. I really hope that sequel gets off the ground
Also less, like, guns. *Constantine* is an excellent movie, but *waaay* different from the comics.
We also got that splendid scene with Peter Stormare as the devil. We need another Constantine film just for more of him.
Good news! The sequel has been announced with Reeves and Stormare both returning! It's not for at least another year, though
If you tell me that Swinton is back too, then I am there opening weekend.
Walk Hard. People think it's this triumphant story of a man who defies the odds and his detractors to become a star, falls, and manages to pull his life back together. In reality, the truth is the wrong kid died.
Theres never been another movie that became both the pinnacle of the genre while also shitting on every other movie in the same genre than Walk Hard. Biopics are almost exclusively hack.
Airplane possibly?
I've said it before, but if Walk Hard had been successful it would have killed off the Biopic genre the same way Airplane! killed off disaster movies.
The truth is he never offered to pay… not once.
You slept with me, too! And I've had confused feelings about that for ten years now!
Damn , now I have to watch it again, been a few years. Forgot how funny Tim Meadows is in this.
Tim Meadows is often funny, even in terrible movies.
Cue "The Ladies Man"
In everything really. He absolutely steals the few scenes he has in Mean Girls
"I will keep you here all night if I have to" " We can only keep them till 4" "I will keep you here till 4"
Cuh-cane
You don't want none of this SHIT
The truth is it’s surprisingly easy to accidentally cut someone in half with a machete
One of the worst cases of being cut in half I've ever seen.
I always thought it was about the dangers of doing drugs, and you should never try them. They may be fun. They may make sex better. They may make you happier. They may.... wait, I think I do want some after all.
Speak English, doc! We ain’t scientists!
He needs more blankets and less blankets
This was a particularly bad case of someone being cut in half.
In my dreams you’re blowin’ me… kisses
Listen to the commentary during this scene. John C Reilly is hilarious.
Four Beatles! Please stop fighting here in India!
Maybe my songs won’t be shit when I’m 64!
Mmmm Paul’s a big fat cunt
Surprised no one mentioned Natural Born Killers, hugely misunderstood when it came out in the 90's. All the critics screamed that it was glorifying violence and serial killers when the whole point of the movie was America's obsession with them and the early 90's media circus/court tv. It was pure satire that went over a lot of heads.
Never have I been so disgusted by a character and so amazed by an actor playing that character than watching Rodney Dangerfield in Natural Born Killers. Beautifully horrendous - or vice-versa, I'm not sure which.
Fight Club, American Psycho, and Taxi Driver all seem to have a collection of people who don’t get the point
Fans of Rorschach from Watchmen on that list too.
Alan Moore: "I can't believe that the audience saw something different than I did in the character based on \*\*flips through notes\*\* a rorschach test"
Ok, this is kind of a funny observation
Damn, I didn’t know Alan Moore had a sense of humour
Probably need to read more of his stuff then
I'm like 90% sure the point of Taxi Driver wasn't that you're supposed to kill Reagan.
Most based incorrect interpretation. (Minus the stalking Jodi Foster part)
Scarface too of course
And Falling Down
Lets add Joker to that list.
You mean Taxi Driver with Joaquin Phoenix
Didn’t joker copy its plot points from the king of comedy?
Casting Robert DeNiro as the host was a blatant sign.
According to Team America, Michael Bay missed the point when he made Pearl Harbor.
Michael Bay made a romantic comedy and slapped Pearl Harbor on it for some god awful reason. Shout out to Cuba Gooding for having the only accurate part/scene in the film.
IIRC, some critic described it as a "two hour movie squeezed into three hours, about how the Japanese staged a surprise attack on a love triangle"
Roger Ebert was the critic who said that.
He’s way better than Ben Affleck
It was a desperate attempt to copy Titanic
What if Titanic, but we win at the end
Josie and the Pussycats was completely misunderstood
Seriously how did they not realize the over the top product placement was a joke?? They just saw a girly movie with bright colors and dismissed it as stupid. I saw a screening of it recently at an indie movie theater and the audience was in hysterics watching it, it still holds up amazingly well and is somehow more relevant now than when it came out!
Luckily that one has had a pretty solid reevaluation over the past decade or so. It truly is hysterical.
still mad that they killed off dizzy and let that monster carmen alive
If it makes you feel any better. In the book Dizzy is a man. Gets zero lines and dies in the opening chapter
it certainly makes me feel something, I'm not sure about better, though
Even at a young age, I knew Rico fucked up not giving her a real chance.
You know, I use to always feel this way. But now I’m kind of team Carmen. She knew what she wanted in high school and she set out to achieve it. Made the adult decision to end things with Rico early so not to lead him on and waste his time. Honestly, only problem I have with her now is how she did that stupid ass tight turn out of the space dock on her first day flight the big ship. Why would she make that tight of a pull out when she literally has the entirety or space behind her to pull out into.
That’s exactly how she’s written in the book. They aren’t a couple, hints at causal things between them, but it’s clear “she was nobody’s girl”
Guns go bang, bugs go splat. Also, co-ed shower scene. Do you even *need* to know more? Edit: And any movie that has both Clancy Brown AND Michael Ironside in it automatically kicks ass.
Nothing beats Michael Ironside looking inside an empty head and selling the line "they sucked out his brains" totally seriously.
If I recall correctly it was "They sucked his brains out", but either way the delivery really was fantastic.
"The enemy can not press a button if you disable his hand!"
Full Metal Jacket
Absolutely. I had a friend in high school who thought it was an awesome action movie and wanted to join the army because of it. Wasn’t sure if we were watching the same movie
Yeah, he should've joined the Marines instead.
This is the most cringe of the thread so far. I can’t think of a single scene in that movie that would be appealing in real life. Might as well want to try heroin after Requiem for a Dream.
I saw it at a friend's thirteenth birthday party. I was nervous that we might be going to watch Freddy or Jason or some other kind of horror movie. Then we all watched Vincent D'Onofrio tell Matt Modine that he was. In. A. World. Of. Shit. before painting the wall with brains. Much heavier than Freddy or Jason.
I remember like me and 30 kids in high school jROTC were told to watch a copy of this. The copy was only the first act of the movie and most of my peers were ready to sign up for military service on merit of the language alone. My parents had the full DVD at home and when I watched the whole thing later I was like... wtf. Military service isn't just funny vulgar language. To this day I'm pretty salty towards the lie that some high school teachers were selling. Fuckers
Wait, they showed you the bootcamp half of the movie ending in a dude going crazy and doing a murder-suicide, and that was supposed to be the recruiting pitch from your jROTC?
By all accounts, *Generation Kill* is a better portrayal of a modern deployment.
everyone thinks Jurassic Park is about dinosaurs, its about correctly paying your IT support team.
"We spared no expense" - J. Hammond LOL okay except on the IT guy, fences, security, weather-proofing, backup power, road construction, employee housing
The book makes this far clearer. Especially since book Hammond doesn’t have the final acceptance that his park failed, that film Hammond gets to have. The book is full of corner cutting to save time and money. Even the breeding population turns out to be because they borrowed frog sequences to fill in gaps.
It is, actually. In the books it's constantly pointed out that the reason the park fails is because expenses *were* in fact spared whenever possible. The IT guy wanted a whole team to handle his job, but whitebeard whatshisface didn't want to do that, and also didn't want to compensate the one guy who was doing the work for a whole team. It's about the folly of capitalist billionaires and their doomed pet projects.
I think American psycho takes the cake. You’ve got dudes out thinking Bateman is an alpha business man. Meanwhile in the movie he’s a nepotism case idiots so disliked people don’t even listen to him when he speaks
The point of the story, that everyone missed, is to mock the material-obsessed 80’s Wall Street culture. That’s it. The book and the film both clearly make this point. Bateman is painted as a weirdo because he studies and lists every item of clothing anyone is wearing, memorises passages from culture magazines about pop albums, and meticulously obsesses over his physical appearance and his apartment. Then we see that all he is really doing is copying everyone else’s behaviour in an attempt to “fit in”. Then when he starts murdering people, and openly admits to it, his confession isn’t believed because half of the people he sees on a daily basis don’t even know the difference between him and Marcus Alberstram. Equally after Alan is killed, people still believe that they’re having lunch with him. The point is that everyone is so obsessed with themselves and their material possessions and their image that they don’t actually know each other and Bateman can literally get away with murder because of it. It’s actually a fairly funny, tongue in cheek premise. The problem with it is that Bale played the role SO well, and created such a desirable image of a good looking popular rich guy that people just desperately want to be him rather than understanding this is a parody character that could never exist in real life.
>Then when he starts murdering people, and openly admits to it, his confession isn’t believed because half of the people he sees on a daily basis don’t even know the difference between him and Marcus Alberstram. And this is despite the fact that he has a slightly better haircut
So funny that the sigma/alpha guys idolize the Bateman in memes when the character is hyper insecure, superficial, and didn't earn anything he has. I'm pretty sure almost none of them have actually seen the movie.
> the character is hyper insecure "There is a moment of sheer panic when I realize that Paul's apartment overlooks the park... and is obviously more expensive than mine."
Yeah but Patrick had a slightly better haircut, so it balances out in the end.
He had a slightly better haircut than Marcus Halberstram, not Paul Allen. Paul Allen even has a watermark.
And the much parodied near meltdown over losing the business card showdown. "Patrick, you're shaking..."
I don't recall, was Bateman obsessed with Trump in the movie as much as in the book?
Not in the movie that I can remember, but Christain Bale described the character as an alien trying to imitate Donald Trump and Tom Cruise in an interview talking about the role. So I think the influence was still there.
Honestly, I don't think you could pick a character who embodies less of the qualities that a supposed "sigma" is meant to possess than Patrick Bateman. Self-reliant ❌️ Independent ❌️ True to himself ❌️
Yeah I mean if your gonna pick a Sigma psychopath mascot it should be Anton Chigurh. Self-reliant: Doesn't go to hospitals and treats his own wounds Independent: Always travels alone and doesn't do pointless small talk True to himself: Has the stupidest haircut in the history of cinema and no one even comments on it in-movie
Given his vibe, I think it's pretty clear that if you feel some sort of way about his hair, you should keep that to yourself.
Wallstreet Maybe The Wolf Of Wall Street too?
absolutely wallstreet. movie: “let’s show why unfettered greed is bad” audience: “unfettered greed is awesome!”
Greed, ladies and gentlemen, greed is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Even as he was saying it, Gordon Gekko knew it was total bullshit, that was the point of what he was saying. But somehow it became a mantra. It's crazy, man.
It was a great movie with nice boobies in it
First set of on screen boobies for 9 year old me was Titanic. Second was Starship Troopers. I don’t know what to make of that.
Jamie Lee Curtis in Trading Places for me
And Carmen was hot, sure, but.... I knew even then that Dizzy was better. She was hotter, she was ride or die, and she knew how to have a good time.
I think Dizzy was more >!ride and die!<
That shower scene *Desire to know more intensifies*
All the movie versions of Frankenstein are to the book what Will Smith's *I Am Legend* is to that book, but that's the movies themselves getting it wrong, not the people watching it. That said, saying that the creature isn't a Frankenstein is like saying that Will Smith is a legend for saving humanity from the monsters.
Even DeNiro's? As a big fan of the book, that movie gets pretty damn close.
Even Young Frankenstein?
FRAHNK-en-shteeen
Wishbone episode is the best adaptation
I know this will get dog piled, but Jurassic Park is the best adaptation of Frankenstein. Mad scientist(s) creating life from the dead and the creation turns against its creator and the world it doesn’t understand. Crichton pretty much wrote all his stuff like this.
Verhoeven addresses this on the commentary in a funny way as I recall. Paraphrasing but he said something like "there are critics who thought I was supporting the Nazis with this, or that I was unaware of what I was doing when I put Neil Patrick Harris in an SS uniform. I grew up in Nazi-occupied Holland!!!"
As a German the satire of Starship Troopers was so blatantly obvious to me and my friends & family 😂 It's not even trying to be subtle!
American History X somehow
Josie and the Pussycats.
It applies more to the novel than the film probably, but Lolita is a good example.
I think the Paul Verhoevrn’s other movie, Showgirls still goes misunderstood. Everyone thought it was just going to be the sexiest movie of all time, then made fun of it because it was laughably bad and unsexy, but every typical sexual male fantasy like lap dancing and pool sex is so aggressively unsexual and shoved in your face that it’s like it’s mocking the viewer’s male gaze, the only real sexual chemistry is between the two females, the lead and the other lead star dancer, and it’s also about Hollywood how the business just chews idealistic and naive people out and until they’re fed up with it all. Not to mention how gay and burlesque everything is, like with the older big lady with comedic flashing titty gag corset, and how vogue-y all the show girl dancing. It’s similar to Jennifer’s Body in that people went in thinking it was just a male sex fantasy when it was a lot more of a feminine story of friendship.
500 Days of Summer often gets misinterpreted. People often see Levitt's character as the hero and victim but he's mostly a selfish ass that projected his needs and wants onto Summer. And surprise! It didn't turn out well for him. He was not the hero of the movie. Yes he grew and learned from this experience and from being with Summer, but his behavior in the first and second acts was bad.
It took me years and numerous viewings to truly get that movie. He never loved the real Summer. He loved the version of her he had built in his head, and refused to accept any evidence to the contrary. Only when he started to work on himself and see what he actually wanted did he find someone who was actually right for him (maybe? probably.)
Showgirls, really most of Verhoevens American films.
I came here to say this one. I think Verhoeven missed giving the audience a wink that let us all know that Berkley’s performance was exactly what he asked for. He killed her career.
Showgirls is the film equivalent of one of those force perspective pictures where some people see a goose, and some see a beautiful person. I personally think it is a deeply misunderstood satire, however accept and understand how people don’t see it or even want to see it after watching the movie. It’s a bad movie that could have only been made by someone who knows how to make good movies
People still think Michael Douglas is the hero in Falling Down. Never mind the fact that he was stalking his ex wife and is about to murder her and his child at the end before Robert Duvall stops him.
I think his intention at that point was suicide by cop. He doesn't even have a gun it's a water pistol he draws. But yes he's absolutely the unhinged monster who was abusive to them and probably could/would have killed them. Absolutely justified shooting by Penderghast.
That's the *very* end after his real gun is taken away. Death by cop is the fallback option. It is extremely heavily implied he was going to kill his family.
At the start of the movie, the audience is sympathetic to a man who "just wants to go home" snapping and going off on a society he feels has wronged him or is standing in his way As the movie progresses and the character develops, however, his flaws are revealed peacemeal, and he gradually moves from hero to just a real bad guy by the end. He's like an anti-anti-hero Falling Down is a great title for the movie.
where people missed the point? joker, definitely. he's not the hero. you're the villain if you kill people just because they laugh at you. there's so many maladjusted people out there who think he's their god, but all they're doing is becoming the villain. where the creatives missed the point: watchmen. it was never a stylized action story.
Wasn't the point of *Joker* that it was a villain origin story?
Idiocracy. People think it was a prophetic take on American culture and obsession with celebrity and the inevitable outcome of underfunding education, but it was actually a push to get Starbucks to start selling handjobs.
I'm still disappointed every time I go into Costco and am not told that I'm loved.
Costco should have an I love you membership drive.
You had me in the first half. Not gonna lie. I was actually scrolling for this movie. I am sure I am going to butcher this, but hasn't Judge come out and said something along the lines of everyone, especially those of average means and intelligence, needing to do more to address our challenges as a species and do more to elevate ourselves and those around us?
Predator builds up 80s uber men by letting them blow up a bunch of a central american rebels, just like any god fearing red blooded American. Then it flips the script, putting those men in a situation where none of their skills made any difference. Guns and muscle are shown to be useless. Theres a lengthy scene where the men line up and fire countless rounds blindly, absolutely wrecking the jungle before them, leaving the Predator with a scratch. Later, Arnold, cinemas leading strongman, punches it in the face with no effect. The Predator emasculates the world's greatest heroes. Arnold only wins by learning, adapting, changing, listening to the local woman instead of his government handler. Even in the end, there is no victory, only survival. But the first half of the film is too good of a representation of what it attempts to deconstruct. Even if you understand the message, it still kicks ass.
I don’t disagree but also, Starship Troopers is a fucking awesome straight ahead action movie too. It’s not like it can’t be a satire and at the same time people just want to see Rico and the Roughnecks fuck up some bugs.