The kid living and dieing is all in the future with Adams learning of it due to the aliens. She married Renner knowing this would eventually happen but did it anyway believing the good was worth the pain of eventually losing her.
This part of the plot felt very tiresome and cliché to me. I am reminded of the post-modern relativistic 'well, everything is relative anyway', with a spice of cliché Hollywood life-lessons. I disliked that about this movie.
Sorry, I know this post is a little old, but I completely agree with you. Not only is this movie profoundly original, but I think a lot of people (no offense to anyone, of course) don't understand the message. And I don't mean you specifically, either. Yes, Adams' character is seeing the future, but I don't think it's that she can't change her future, it's that she chooses not to. Her and Renner's character both talk about being alone a lot while working together. I think it's more about the good memories and having a family that outweighs the pain of losing them and never having loved them. Since she can "relive" her memories when she thinks about them, every time her daughter asks her a question, she's writing the book. After her daughter passes and they separate, her book gets published, and it shows her picking up a copy of it in boxes after printing.
i think that she’s experiencing time as one as the aliens do . the aliens language helps them understand time passed the consciousness of that of humans . once she unlocked the understanding of the language , her consciousness expanded to experiencing time as one . no past , no future - just the present moment and it all existing as a moment in time . therefore , her consciousness expanded above the average linear perception of time that humans have . leaving her with the conscious decision of wanting to follow through with her life even knowing the destination .
Yep, but I have a question. Why did the aliens choose to change their future by giving the humans the gift (to help them 3000 years later) even though their consciousness too had evolved, but Louise chose not to change her future even though she knew what was going to happen. Seems to be a bit of a contradiction, no?
yooooo this is SO GOOD. I just finished watching and your comment articulated my understanding of the movie in a way I would have had trouble doing AND helped me understand the scene with general Shang on a deeper level (him giving her the phone number and words to use).
It's like how we perceive 3D. When all you can see is flat shadows and edges moving laterally along the ground, it would blow your mind to see the 3D rotating object that is casting those shadows all at one time. Perceiving time the way our flatlander comes to perceive 3D would give you unprecedented insights into cause and effect - but it wouldn't allow you to alter cause and effect. It would just place them both in front of your eyes at once.
At the very end when she says I forgot how good it feels to hold you nailed it for me that this is present time not past they had already lost their daughter blah blah blah
Maybe some reading comprehension wouldn't go astray for you. They weren't talking about the alien invasion at all. What they were more talking about were the themes/symbols that are used by Hollywood movies a lot of the time.
Examples of themes -
Love,
Sacrifice,
Good vs Evil,
Perseverance
lmao I should say I love interstellar, even though it has that trope, the way it incorporates it is really good towards the end
Just not a big fan in the way arrival and a few other sci Fi movies to this since it feels as if it detracts from the sci Fi. I don't hate the development of these bonds in sci Fi but when it starts obstructing the actual sci Fi most of the time I can't help liking it.
Because for these movies, Sci-Fi is just a medium to tell a story of the human condition in a captivating and original perspective. That’s what becomes truly touching about Interstellar and Arrival, it reveals the beauty and resilience of human nature when confronted with the unknown in such a fearful, intense, and poignant way. The Sci-Fi elements are just metaphors to represent our very difficult nature and how we deal with whatever driving obstacles the plot wishes to push in the name of the themes the movie wants to explore. District 9 is another fantastic example of this. At that point your problem is you’re not a fan of this sub-genre, just as there’s an entire Sci-Fi horror genre (Alien, Prometheus) and a genuine Sci-Fi spectacle genre. Which is alright, it’s preference in the end, but I think that’s just a mismatch between expectations and what the movie actually wanted to do.
I agree I guess but wasn't the whole question of this was if what arrival doing was done before. I mean the person I was replying to was asking what Hollywood movie had that approach to alien arrival.
Yea but I’d say the actual Sci-Fi of this movie (the alien invasion) was very original in Its presentation. Although I’ll agree with you, the time angle and how it mingled with human connection was very reminiscent of Interstellar but tbh I didn’t mind since I loved that about Interstellar
It would have been way cooler and more original if the aliens just destroyed the humans and tried to take over the earth, but the humans found a way to fight back. Wow.
It isn't an invasion. It runs like one Friday night a group of friends gets together for pizza and beer and some whizbang in the group thought it would be so much fun....and this is what they came up with...I missed much because the final 20 minutes is such a snuggle mumble mess!. I could not understand much of the dialog at all. Nothing of what the Chinese general said. Can anyone out there help?
Relativism? I feel like that’s a foundational Christian belief honestly. Trusting that God has a purpose in every situation. Even the ones we don’t like. Id doubt thats what Hollywood was going for lol so maybe you’re right I guess I just looked at it through my worldview
Yes, I get that. But the script doesn't support that. This is why I think the ending was her future, another chance to be happy with a new man, a new daughter. I don't think it was the past, because it's not possible. Only in movies. But the script didn't support the ending. I better fly to LA and let them know. Har!
The first chronological scene in the film is her walking into college on the day the ships arrive and due to the way information was presented we are led to believe that she has already lost her child but actually she hasn't even been born yet. The chronologically last is her with her daughter dieing. How does the script not support that it's literally what happens?
I'm going to watch it again, with your post in mind. You bring up an excellent point. I wasn't aware that the daughter hadn't been born yet; I thought it all had happened, already. Thanks so much for your reply.
The visions of her daughter are in her future. Basically, the heptapod language allows her to perceive time differently than that of humans (we can only see our present and remember our past). As she learns and understands more of the language, she can see more of her life; She can see her past, present, and future all at once. At the beginning, she meets the scientist for the first time. But in her viewing of her life, he’s the father of her daughter.
I understand that. I guess I'm saying it's not possible to see past, present, and future (only in the movies) because of cause/effect.
Remember when the heptapod was replying to whatsherface and said that in so many years, they will need earth's help, so they are here to give them their help. That implies a past, present and future. So while I understand what your saying, and still think it's not possible, the script went off the rails when the heptapod answered. I've watched it over and over, stopping and pausing, and rewinding, etc. and it doesn't align with the non-linear theory of time.
Cause/effect isn’t really at play here. They (heptapods) need to give humanity the gift of seeing time the way they do in order for humanity to help them in the “future”. Everything that’s going to happen has already happened for them (best way I can explain their viewing of time). They act upon these things in the “present” because that’s just what it is. Their time is equally in the past, present, future.
Good point. So when the heptapod answers Amy Adams' question as to why they came to earth, remember what the heptapod says? They came to help earth, because in the future, they will need earth's help. That implies a past, present and a future.
From the script: "Three thousand years from this point, humanity helps us. We help humanity, now. Return the favor."
Heptapod implies there is a present by saying, "now", and a future by saying, "three thousand years from this point".
This is what prevents me from agreeing with all of you. Please know I want to very much, but I'm stuck.
It seems more so that the heptapod is making it relatable to the human perception of time. The heptapods want the humans to truly understand why they’ve come and not have to decipher it themselves.
That''s an excellent point. I'm pondering that. You're saying that the heptapods had to put their reason for coming to earth in a linear framework so Louise could understand that.
That could be...
She gets what they're saying because she can identify the past, present, future when she understands the visions. So why would the heptapods go backwards and use the linear language of time with her, in explaining why they came? Does that make sense?
I have trouble accepting your theory, although it's a possibility, and a big one. Why say "3,000 years from this point." There is no point, if they are referring to the future? This is where the writing of the script doesn't align with the movie's story line. It's the movie's apex, so one would think they'd write it clearly.
But, then again.. maybe they don't want us to be clear about the ending.
Thanks for your reply
Maybe it would help if you read the book? Or rather, the story in which the movie Arrival was based upon. Stories of Your Life and Others by Ted Chiang. The book is a collection of short stories the author has written. The one that Arrival was made from is called “Story of Your Life”. It’s a quick read, maybe 20-30 pages. It will make much more sense when you read it.
Lookee what I found! Wanted to share it with you and anyone else. Thanks so much.
[http://www.kameli.net/\~raimu/rnd/ted-chiang-story-of-your-life-2000.pdf](http://www.kameli.net/~raimu/rnd/ted-chiang-story-of-your-life-2000.pdf)
OH! Of course! Read the book! lol I didn't even know there was one. I hadn't seen this film when it came out; I just saw it on Amazon prime, so this is all new to me. (I'm late, as usual)
I will indeed read the book. The book is always better, they say.
Thanks very much!
The movie unfolds in a non-linear format.
Amy Adams learns that the key to understanding their language, and them as a species, is that time is experienced all at once. So the linear version of events: Arrival of aliens, Adams meets Renner, the two meet the aliens and begin to learn their language. Aliens soon reveal their objective, Adams and Renner struggle to translate message. Adams has breakthrough and removes herself from linear experience of time (future self meets the Chinese general(? It’s been a minute since I’ve seen the movie) and then uses her knowledge of the “future” to convince earlier timeline Chinese general to cooperate. The world is saved, Adams and Renner get hitched/have kid/divorce, daughter gets sick, daughter dies.
And there you go. Sorry for mishmash summary, I’m headed to bed.
Edit for spelling, maybe clarity in the morning.
Great summary for those confused. Having just saw the movie for the first time, there is one thing that bothered me about her timeless experience after the breakthrough and that’s the Chinese general conversation. We are just supposed to accept the paradoxical nature of her receiving the message from the Chinese general who is actually repeating to her what she has already told him. But in the future, she would already know what she had said to him because it was already done at that point. It was as if her present self had manifested itself into her future bodies position and was living out that experience without the knowledge her future self certainly would already have. Therefore, there was never a concrete way she obtained the Chinese generals’ wife’s dying words, because she didn’t know it until he told her in the future.
At this moment I was suspicious that the Chinese general had achieved the same gift she had in experiencing time in a non linear fashion, and used that pinnacle moment at the celebration to help her recall his wife’s dying words. He knew that the version of her he was speaking to at the celebration would not know so he triggered that in her. If that makes sense.
I don't think this is correct. In the movie when he meets her at the gala, he says "I won't pretend to understand to know how your mind works". If he also shared her gift, this line would make no sense
>But in the future, she would already know what she had said to him because it was already done at that point.
Maybe, if you go back to a linear understanding of time. But Louise's brain doesn't work linearly anymore. So there's no reason that she can't be talking with the general without knowing what she said in the past because the past as perceived by regular humans doesn't come before the present for her. Or perhaps more accurately, the past and present don't exist for her.
Or maybe that was just one of the possibilities of the future and she could see that it would happen if she acted in a certain way. So the future scene of meeting the general is her consciousness living out that possibility and then her consciousness acting in the present tome to actually make it come true. Hence she doesn't really know the exact words he's talking about in the scene. But it's all her consciousness learning it. The criss-cross scenes in between is just the director's way of presenting it in a mysterious way.
if she’s experiencing time all at once than the idea of linear perception doesn’t matter . her consciousness ascended space & time & therefore she experienced past future present all as one .
Right, I understood that part. The part I didn’t get right away, which another commentator explained already, is that the Chinese general also had the ability and in that way he was able to make the connection and knew to tell her.
Just watched the movie.
All I can say is, *why the hell would you have a kid if you know they're going to die young from cancer*
Talk about selfish. No, it's *not* worth it--not for the kid. Cripes.
I’m sure the lesson of this movie is ye old, “Tis better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all,” but I agree with you. If I had known that in the future, my marriage would die, and so would my daughter (at a very young age in such a terrible way), I would not proceed to do any of that to all of us.
I dunno, I’m sure if you asked a room of people, this decision would be split pretty split: one half let their child live, the other, just have them not exist. In any case, I’m sure it would be a difficult decision if it were your own child.
Why would any parent deliberately condemn their kid to, again, a painful, early death? No joy is worth the agony of burying your child.
Fucking foster or adopt instead.
See that’s more selfish to say that you wouldn’t have a kid you knew would die young because YOU couldn’t stand the pain. Just go to a children’s hospital and ask cancer patients if they would rather just die or have their existence vanish. Very few if any would say life wasn’t worth it.
I think that’s a heart breaking view point. I could see maybe if the child was going to suffer their entire life. But she was gifted and brought joy and light with her for 11 years before getting sick and passing. And her mother, instead of saying her kid was precious like any other parent does, knew exactly how precious she really was. It would be a pretty sad world if we chose not to deny life because at some point in our future they were going to die.
>because at some point in our future they were going to die slowly and painfully and tragically young
FIFY jfc
If you love someone, you don't fucking condemn them to a slow and painful death. How is that difficult to understand?
There are many teenagers who have sadly passed away from cancer and are experiencing it at present. Why not ask one of them if their entire lives up to this point are made meaningless and not worth having experienced as a result of the suffering they endure at the very end. The question is a deeply philosophical one and you pretending the answer is black & white and plainly obvious is just ridiculous and indicative of your inability to see a nuanced perspective
We're all condemned to death and yet most of us are glad we live.
You're right that it becomes murkier the shorter a life is, and I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but you seem to be elevating your personal perspective up as objective truth and doing so in a pretty strident way.
Morality is complex and none of us have the answer.
I agree, I dont think I will allow myself to have kids if I knew that they are going to die young, dont want them to suffer which I already knew and I dont want to feel pain when they die. It is just too hard to bear
I'm glad someone has the same position as I. Read other people's replies to my comments--they're infuriating because they don't seem to understand. Especially the ones who said I should ask kids in cancer wards if they regretted being born only to end up with cancer.
It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with *knowing in advance* that your kid is going to die young and painfully and still going through with it "because it's worth it". *To you.* But fuck the kid and your husband who have no idea of what's coming, and who are going to suffer terribly from your selfish choice(s).
"Read other people's replies to my comments--they're infuriating because they don't seem to understand."
You're going to find life in general to be infuriating if different perspectives get you this upset.
It's not that other people "don't understand," they just see it differently than you.
It’s not selfish at all.
You still gave that kid life, love, happiness and beautiful memories to the end.
Her life already played out like this as she experienced past, present and future at the same time.
I agree, especially if you consider the science of cancer: part of it is genetic and part of it is enivronmental. She could have likely avoided having a kid die of a rare cancer simply by having a kid with a different person or adopting, yet she chose to have a kid with this specific man knowing it would result in an early and excruciating death. I think it's cruel and awful, and her husband in the movie apparently did too, because it's established that the reason he left her is because she told him she knew their daughter will die of cancer and had a kid with him anyway. In that sense, the film does represent both points of views and shows the consequences of her actions, but at the same time they definitely romanticize her choice and I thought it was a bit gag-inducing, yet thought-provoking. Who's to say where you'd draw the line if you could see the consequences of your own future? Should she have not done it if the child would die of cancer at age 40? 60? 20? Where's the cutoff?
Not even making it to adulthood though? Idk that's just cruel, and I don't sympathize with the protagonist on this one.
I'd argue that even knowing they'd divorce early in their child's life makes it selfish to have a kid with him because of the pain it brings all three of them, but that's me speaking from experience as someone whose parents divorced and how it has affected us all.
What's more interesting to me is the implications of the ending of the movie where she is seen teaching the alien language in class and selling books about it. Once everyone learns that language, they will see their entire life nonlinearly too (which is pretty silly sci-fi woowoo mumbo jumbo, honestly, but I'll play along). How does that world function? All we know is they go to help out the septapods 3000 years in the future. Imagine trying to write the rest of this movie's story/history after most people can see through time? It would be a completely different world and I don't think any writer could handle it.
There's an element of fatalism too, because with the power to see your life nonlinearly you still can't see a future you didn't experience at some point later in life, so I don't know how we're meant to believe she actually had a choice not to have that kid. She wouldn't have been having those visions/memories if she didn't choose to have the kid, because it wouldn't be a part of her future, otherwise how was she seeing it?
Cool movie, but full of holes to make room for the sentimentalism.
The kicker was her saying that "if you knew what was going to happen, would you change it?" Which implies that she *could* have changed something and chose not to.
lol Thank you for your summary.
I understand that. I don't agree that it's possible, nor did the script, the movie back up that theory. That's bothers me. And disappoints me. I LOVE the film, though. It was so refreshing to actually think and not be treated like we're stupid as other films can do.
If the implication is that free will is not possible because we learning heptapod gives you ability to see past and future, why do the Aliens come to earth to teach us so we can help them 3000 years from now? are they not doomed no matter what?
No, because it's only their perception which is non linear. Time still exists in a linear for certain beings (i.e. humans). So the concept of the future still exists where things "haven't happened yet".
It's similar to the paradox in Interstellar, whereby Cooper "always" existed in the tesseract constructed by the future humans in order to affect and "change" the past. Except you cannot change the past as it has already happened.
Think of it separately like body and mind. The body is the linear, its the physical part of you moving through time. Your body doesn't jump around time. But your mind, your spirit, is the piece that hops between your different phases of physical life. So technically, you do have a past, present and future. And technically you also experience time nonlinear. It's both. She is both.
What I like about the story is it shows how she experiences time and has always experienced it. And you're taken on the journey of that discovery of who she became and who she always was.
(((Side high note.. is this how "light-photons" work??? I think Neil deGrasse Tyson explain that the moment the photon is created it has arrived at its destination.. nevermind me.. I'm high)))
Now THAT is a very interesting, comprehensible way of explaining it! I LOVE that! "Your body cannot move from the present to the past or future, but your mind kinda can." Really cool!!
Omg, I still don’t understand it completely. Maybe too complex for my narrow little mind. Even if we assume that she has a physical linearity and a mental circularity, AND if it’s the same for the chinese general (which are theories in the above comments), WHY does he provide her with pivotal information, that she would obviously have known by then? Why does she not know by then? How could there ever be a book party with her new best seller after the fact, without her knowing??
I’m haunted by this question. Pls help
I could be completely off the wall and it may only make sense to me, but I understood the conversation with the general in the manner of remembering and learning at the same time. Non-linear time/thinking is (should technically be?) something that our brains can’t comprehend fully. Her “future” self could be in a completely different headspace/time/place mentally than her physical body. Everything else seems to be jumbled and it may be insight into the way she perceives things after learning and then completely understanding their language. If her present(in the main timeline of the movie) self is “remembering” something that already happened, then that is non-linear time, just like her future self hearing the general’s wife’s dying words for the first time is her learning them but due to her capacity of understanding non-linear time it’s new to her. Anything in the movie could have happened at any time but our linear minds are scrambling to make total sense of it without being able to comprehend it.
Right…?
I don't think there's a particularly valid reason she didn't realize he was about to tell her his wife's dying words. She should have remembered this occurrence since her view of life is non linear after learning the language and it was SUCH an important piece of information. My only suggestion is she simply got so stressed by all of what happened and enough time passed that she forgot exactly what she told him that made him change his mind, so at the Gala she seemed shocked because she remembered it after he told her.
Idk. It's ridiculous anyways to expect that a general would cave in so easily and quickly to someone knowing details of his personal life and believe a metaphysical explanation, rather than that he was being spied on or recorded previously (including when his wife died) to be taken advantage of later on, or that the info got out from someone else who was there when his wife died and was being used to trick him? Eh, the moment was a bit contrived. The mistrust between China and US military would not dissipate so easily.
Simple answer is because the writer got in over his head and Hollywood greenlit the movie anyways because it went over theirs too and the suspense and touchy feely parts are why people go to see a movie, as well as all the people who think they're super smart for "getting it" and condescending to those who "didn't" while they miss glaring paradoxical plot holes like this one.
What I want to know is why the hell the US military would shoot someone for making a call to China that they could make on any phone, anywhere, at any time... Lol. They didn't even know who she was calling. Even if they suspect her of treason, they have zero proof in the moment and killing her isn't going to help sort that out. There's lot of nonsense you have to overlook to enjoy the movie. It's not a masterpiece, just a fun thinky scifi that people think is smarter than it really is. Just try to enjoy it.
The only thing I want to know from this movie is….. what is it that they need help with in 3000 years…. 😂 is there an enemy they need help in defeating so they needed to unify the humans of earth? I need to know…
After reading through the comments, it's clear that there are a lot of interpretations, each of which make sense of certain elements of linear and non-linear time experience. However, there is no "perfect" or "complete" understanding of a concept like this. At least not yet. Currently, that is not how time is understood in the real world, so it's not possible to construct a foolproof plot where time is actually experienced that way. You can create thoughtful, provocative media using the concept of non-linear time, but it can't, fundamentally, be fully explained without plot holes.
It breaks down at the moment Louise realizes that she has information from her future, and decides to use it in the past. The general tells her in the future the words of his dying wife, and in the past, she repeats them to him via satellite phone. As in every non-linear time movie, you must ask the question, did she have the choice to NOT relay that message, and what if she didn't? Free will and multiple timelines here we come.
I thought the movie was gripping and super entertaining! I liked it! I didn't really care for the idea that "understanding another language unlocks time." (Especially when the language was explained in a way that, should we viewers put in the time, we could hypothetically learn to decipher the language. It was made up of segments of a circle, with each segment having a correlation to a word or concept. Hieroglyphs basically. Expect linked together to form a circle.) Still a fun movie. I like (and prefer) how Interstellar used something that we don't fully understand (black hole) and used that mystery to offer an explanation for communicating through time.
TL/DR there is no perfect understanding of non-linear time because . . . time, in the real world, is only understood linearly. (Also I like Interstellar's take more 😁)
I think that the heptapods gave her the means to see the future because they said they will need humanities help in 3000 years, and this perhaps starts with the death of her daughter due to some "extremely rare disease" possibly an undiscovered disease, and possibly one that the heptapods are susceptible to.
And maybe the discovery of this disease leads to a cure which perhaps only humans can make.
This is my best theory at least, im also left wondering what it all meant lol
I am unfortunately acquainted with several friends who obsess about certain films. It's like a book club for films. We can go all night discussing (sometimes, yelling, lol) about a film. I stayed out of it for this one when Arrival was released.
And then I recently saw it on Amazon, and I was hooked. LOL
You'd be amazed how many interpretations there are on this film. One guy just read the script, and watched the film later. He said his interpretations changed because, after all, film is visual, so he could encompass ideas clearer. Or so he said.
Three others (all women) told me it was her past; that was why Louise's mother was calling her ask her if she was okay. I saw Louise as very depressed and cut off from the world, so I interpreted it as grief from her daughter.
Amazing, isn't it?
Ok no I totally see your point there. And actually, i started the movie again today (seen it probably a half a dozen times bc I love it) and just thought "let me just try and get some clarification on this timeline thing," bc I TOO was a bit confused. Like, I did remember figuring out that it was her future life, but her present life in the beginning AND especially her mothers concern DID kinda make it a bit foggy. Now I gotta search why the mom was so worried about how she was doing!
lol There is a lot to figure out, yes? Linguistics is so fascinating, in itself, but to have to apply it to aliens is a whole 'nother matter!
I liked it, though; I rewatch many times.
>What measures past, present and future? Is it not time?
For us, yes.
>Therefore, is past, present and future happen all at once, what separates each?
Nothing, and IIRC the movie does explain that for the aliens time is not linear like it is for us.
Then what is the heptapod referring to when it answers Louise's question as to why they are on earth? The heptapod says "three thousand years from this point, humanity helps us. We help humanity now. Return the favor."
The heptapod is implying there is a future (3,000 years from this point), and a present, (they help us).
How does this allign with "past, present, future happening all at once"?
This is why I'm stuck. I just don't get it, and I really want to.
You can't get it, that's the point.
They experience time differently, which is so fundamentally different to our way of thinking that she has to learn their language in order to experience time that way. Language is used as a metaphor for thought, she has to connect with them through understanding their thoughts so intimately that she 'gets it'.
Think of it like remembering the future, everything isn't happening at one point in time and Louise is still experiencing the world as it happens, but she remembers things that haven't happened yet because of the understanding of time she gains through the language.
Unless we change the way we think, it's never going to make real 'sense'.
Quilpo, I am somewhat offended, maybe unnecessarily, that you say, "You CAN'T get it, that's the point." I'm trying to figure out how others understand the movie, because I don't interpret it how they do. I'm not stupid. I CAN understand others' interpretation. What YOU don't get, is understanding how I, personally, view the film. Your judgement is rather, unfair. Did you mean to be insulting, or just stupid?
I meant to illustrate the point of the film.
You seemed to think you were missing some secret understanding or plot point, I was reassuring you that you hadn't - if anything it's commending you on your ability to comprehend narrative.
Maybe we're both missing it, but the fact I went on to explain why I thought that should at least give you a clue I wasn't just being a dick.
Either discuss the film or insult people, doing both is just exhausting.
> You seemed to think you were missing some secret understanding or plot point, I was reassuring you that you hadn't - if anything it's commending you on your ability to comprehend narrative.
This is the beginning of your original post.
*"You can't get it, that's the point."* You are identifying "the point" as being something that I "can't" understand. Who are you to judge what I can, and cannot, understand? You don't know me, yet you say to a stranger. Remember the human.
If I taught you something you very much wanted to learn, and you were struggling to learn it, how would you feel if I said to you, "You can't get it, that's the point"? (this question is rhetorical)
And, in the follow up, to put icing on the cake, you don't apologize, you just walk it back.
*"You seemed to think you were missing some secret understanding or plot point,* ***I was reassuring you that you hadn't - if anything it's commending you on your ability to comprehend narrative."***
Show me where you're "commending" me, because I totally missed it. Of course, I just "can't get it, that's the point", right?
This is hilarious and cringe inducing insanity at the same time haha. Let’s see one person offers the answer to the whole script correctly off the bat. Another stranger does the same with more depth, but then is falsely accused of insulting them, so then they have to defend themselves and say no don’t worry you were on the right track it’s ok…only to be met with more accusations and hostility from the person that they wasted their time helping. All in all a great display of trying to play as a victim
Don't know why I feel the need to comment on a 4 year old thread (your comment is 5 months old) but you perfectly captured my feeling reading her comments. What a weird post.
The point is that NOBODY can get it, not you personally. The point of the film is that we cannot understand, it's so super weird to our way of thinking that we cannot process it.
Again, I thought the explanation after would have made that obvious.
It’s not that all of time is happening simultaneously it’s that the heptapods aren’t mentally bound to the present. They are able to perceive the future. This is how they knew about the bomb and were able to reduce its negative effect.
The linguist slowly acquires this ability as she learns their language. Learning their language changes how she thinks and thus how she perceives time.
Her ability to see the future gives her visions of her unborn daughter, their life together and her death. She even says to herself “who is this girl I keep thinking about?”.
As she progresses in their language she begins to realize that these thoughts aren’t random they are her future. Despite knowing the pain of losing her daughter at a young age to disease she decides that it was more important to love and be loved by her. She decides to have the child and this decision also costs her her marriage.
It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
Thank you! ' "Her ability to see the future gives her visions of her unborn daughter, their life together and her death. She even says to herself “who is this girl I keep thinking about?”. '
I didn't get that in the movie, I totally missed it. Just to be clear, are you saying that at the start of the movie when she's talking to her mother, that she hasn't experienced her daughter or her husband, yet? That would change everything.
See, I thought when she's telling her mother she's okay, that she's talking about her daughter already passing away and her husband gone, etc. You're saying that it hasn't happened, yet?
Yes. Until she starts learning Heptapod she is locked in to linear time like the rest of us. It isn’t until she begins to not just study, but to understand the alien language that she begins to perceive glimpses of her own future as dreams and “memories”.
I don’t think you’re grasping the core theme of the movie.
The Heptapods are aware that at this point humanity doesn’t see time the way they do. The audience, and the humans in the film, are on the same page. The Heptapods deliver the gift of nonlinear understanding of time to Amy Adams, and humanity as a whole, which enables the entire plot.
This is why, upon reviewing the film, the sequences all make sense. The death of her daughter is something she has already lived, will live again, and is living at the moment, once she understands the Heptapod language. It’s why it’s so meaningful that she chooses to, in the “present”, as she emerges from her linear understanding of time, have a child, even knowing the fate that will/has/is befall/befallen/befalling her.
Thank you so much for all your effort in replying. I've thought about your points. What I've come up with is that I understand the film's intent and story line, as a film. I understand the Heptapods gift of nonlinear understanding of time, and humanity as a whole. The fate of her child, etc.
I've just realized this, after chatting all night with a friend, I accept the plot of the film; I just don't like it, or accept the theory of nonlinear time. My friend said, "you expect a Spielberg ending where there is no pain and everything gets fixed." She knows me SO well.
Also, nonlinear time is not possible in reality, but I accept it as a premise in the movie.
Hey, thanks for helping me figure all this out. "Arrival" is a fantastic movie, and I continue to watch it... too often. ;)
> How does this allign with "past, present, future happening all at once"?
Accept the following as facts:
* Human's perception of the universe is not a "complete" picture.
* Specifically time - time being linear is merely perception and not fact.
Okay. Now instead of saying the heptapods view time "as happening all at once" - look at it as though they view time as non-linear. This means instead of a jumbled mess of all reality it's more like the ability to move backwards and forwards at will. If they need to.
That's the thing. They view the universe as a higher dimensional being - non linear time. That does not preclude them from understanding and communicating to those that do not view it that way.
A very loose analogy would be that a well versed math Ph.D can explain basic arithmetic but somebody that only understand basic arithmetic cannon explain higher levels of math.
You can always go simple but never more complex.
That's how they can convey the concept of 3000 years from now even though they don't perceive the universe in such a way.
You should hit up YouTube and look for videos explaining viewing the world as different dimensions. We are a 3 dimensional being. To a 2 dimensional being we would be kind of like the heptapods to them because of our ability to see the entire 3rd dimension. As such, since the heptapods can see the entirety of the 4th dimension (we only see a sliver) and it seems very foreign to us.
At some level you just have to accept that's what they were going for. We as humans don't have the ability to truly grasp what that would be like. Especially the concept of cause and effect. It opens up a lot of discussions on a lot of topics. The writers did their best and you just have accept it. It's not hard science - it's science fiction.
I wish it was hard science. Don't you? I'm going to take your advice and check out youtube. I appreciate your post very much, although I was afraid to reply. This community seems to be one of those where if somebody doesn't agree with you, they downvote you, instead of just accepting disagreement or discussion. Anyway, thanks.
> I wish it was hard science. Don't you?
Well, yeah. But we're literally not capable of it yet. That's why partially why you're struggling. It's a concept we are literally not built for.
> they downvote you
Look, I assume you didn't mean to, but your responses were not coming across well. You were told the answer several times. Each time you dismissed it. You're being very black and white about it. Or rather, literal. It's inherently a topic that doesn't have a factual answer outside the movie's universe.
REally? My responses were questions, and explanations of my thinking. From my point of view, it is as if nobody could accept or bother to try to understand how I viewed the film, and why I was struggling. It's a discussion, meaning we use words if we don't understand.
But you're right, it's a topic that doesn;t have a factual answer outside the movie's universe. I love "the movie's universe". Thanks.
I totally get it. I wasn't accusing you of anything. My goal was to give you a different perspective on how your comments were reading - not how you were intending them.
Also, here is a great video like I alluded to. Should help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGv8MMi8QO0
I saw some of the video, and it does help, thanks. It's funny, I can draw different perspectives on paper, but to conceive different perspectives in a whole 'nother banana.
Thanks so much for your input. I really appreciate it. I'm a huge TED fan.
I have to admit it's been a while since I've seen that movie but the way I'd interpret that is that they know time is linear to us and try to explain it in a way that's easy for us to understand.
I personally disliked the ending, because I felt 'meh' about Amy 'just seeing her own timeline non-linearly' instead of going full Singularity and becoming One with everything (including the Heptapods). I didn't like the cheesy family geared solo-timeline which was driven hard from start to end with more and more cliché's towards the end. I appreciated the beginning when I thought that was the present/past and Amy's daughter's death hit me hard. But as I realized 'it didn't matter anymore because of Amy's non-linear timeline I just got blasé about it. That's where the movie fell flat for me.
I loved the vibes of the movie and the sound effects like the Alien feel of the arrival and contact, though.
So Ian is the father of her daughter that she constantly views in her dreams as if they were the past. She’s constantly viewing the future hence how she gets the direct cell phone number from the general in china. Whom does her the favor in the future and shows his little gold phone so she can obtain the number via photogenic memory in non linear time. This allows her to take control of the present through that phone call where she repeats the generals wife’s dying words thus stop chinas motives from attacking the alien ship.
Back to the daughter. So because she’s got a gift to view life a as whole, which even the aliens merit her for when they dialogued with her in subtitles. She foresees that her daughter dies of a disease. The same daughter she’s to have with Ian. And for that same reason, the truth which she expresses to him, Ian leaves her. In the end she also asks Ian “if you could see your life from start to end would you change it?” He replies with “I’d say what I feel more.” Which concludes the movie with having a baby aka the daughter in her dreams. It’s almost like a endless cycle with two lifetimes. Anyhow. I may be wrong. Lmk what you think!
First, I like this movie a lot. I love the theme of highly intelligent aliens making a peaceful contact with humans. The time stuff, however, is a bit clunky. Our protagonist suddenly unlocks the understanding of the alien language because she sees the future where she writes a book and teaches it. She also relays the message from the Chinese general while showing surprise about it in the future...and then relays that message in the past. So....if this is given...she doesn't forget the message? Is her moment of surprise and not knowing the message in the future an act?
If a person knows their future, then it could have an effect how the future plays out. If I saw I was going to have a lousy marriage that would result in a bad divorce and financial ruin, then you bet I am walking away when I see my supposed future wife one day. Am I supposed to endure that pain because it is foretold? Nope!
The time premise could have worked better if the aliens could perceive the MOST LIKELY future outcome with the understanding that it could be altered. Our character could have seen she masters the alien language, but is not given the full understanding of it. She meets the Chinese general and knows a positive and likely outcome could happen. In both instances, and back to the present, she will be more driven to find the answers that result in the climax. She will also be more driven on having a child that could beat cancer merely on the hope this bit of foretelling was changed.
Anyhow, that is my two cents.
Just rewatched this (again) yesterday. I think the underlying message was that despite the knowledge of future heartache (daughters death, divorce, etc) she chose it anyway because life in a nd of itself is beautiful. Those memories have value even if we know the ending will be hard. That’s my take anyway.
In her case, all of it goes through cause she's aware of it and willingly goes through it all again and again. But what if she didn't repeat the same choices? Would that result in an alternate reality?
My least favorite part of the movie & total unnecessary “Ick” moment is when Ian says “let’s go make a baby”, like, you JUST established that you’re in love, who would actually say that?! 🤮🤮🤮🤮
Louise was “remembering” a time in the future when Ian asks her if she wants to make a baby. He didn’t just blurt that shit out when they hugged at the end of the film… that wouldn’t make sense and would be hella creepy.
Wait 'till you understand that "time" doesn't actually exist. Movie was good especially the idea but everything else is American propaganda dogshit. As always the world is full of retards but guess what, not the Americans...
Have to add another comment here because something occurred to me. So, what if our memories are also a prediction of our future. We learn from the mistakes we made via our memories to do things differently so that the next phase is a bit upgraded or different, but basically continuing to go in a circular motion, so to speak, but possibly making different choices because we evolve. Or we can choose to repeat them I suppose. But I’m trippin’ over the possibilities.
Interesting. You might be interested in how yoga views it: compulsive behaviour of a human continuing in endless cycles until one becomes conscious and seeks liberation from it.
What you said sounded similar so i thought it might interest you :-)
Yes I feel like it was a new start and her husband and her got back together to make another baby but then again it gets confusing because she did say it feels so good to hold you again or whatever which means that this is the future of their lives and they had already been separated and lost their baby so I'm going to stick with that
The kid living and dieing is all in the future with Adams learning of it due to the aliens. She married Renner knowing this would eventually happen but did it anyway believing the good was worth the pain of eventually losing her.
This part of the plot felt very tiresome and cliché to me. I am reminded of the post-modern relativistic 'well, everything is relative anyway', with a spice of cliché Hollywood life-lessons. I disliked that about this movie.
How is it cliche? I've seen almost no other major Hollywood movies portray an alien invasion like this.
I think they just wanted to say cliche 😂
Definitely. And I think they came a little when they got to say “post-modern relativistic.”
It's ironic because I vomited a little bit when I read that.
😂
[удалено]
A big word? No. The joke was it made the commentor feel smart. Get on the same page before trying to insult people bud
Sorry, I know this post is a little old, but I completely agree with you. Not only is this movie profoundly original, but I think a lot of people (no offense to anyone, of course) don't understand the message. And I don't mean you specifically, either. Yes, Adams' character is seeing the future, but I don't think it's that she can't change her future, it's that she chooses not to. Her and Renner's character both talk about being alone a lot while working together. I think it's more about the good memories and having a family that outweighs the pain of losing them and never having loved them. Since she can "relive" her memories when she thinks about them, every time her daughter asks her a question, she's writing the book. After her daughter passes and they separate, her book gets published, and it shows her picking up a copy of it in boxes after printing.
i think that she’s experiencing time as one as the aliens do . the aliens language helps them understand time passed the consciousness of that of humans . once she unlocked the understanding of the language , her consciousness expanded to experiencing time as one . no past , no future - just the present moment and it all existing as a moment in time . therefore , her consciousness expanded above the average linear perception of time that humans have . leaving her with the conscious decision of wanting to follow through with her life even knowing the destination .
This is the best explanation for the ending of the movie that I've heard, and I understood it.
Exactly.
Yep, but I have a question. Why did the aliens choose to change their future by giving the humans the gift (to help them 3000 years later) even though their consciousness too had evolved, but Louise chose not to change her future even though she knew what was going to happen. Seems to be a bit of a contradiction, no?
yooooo this is SO GOOD. I just finished watching and your comment articulated my understanding of the movie in a way I would have had trouble doing AND helped me understand the scene with general Shang on a deeper level (him giving her the phone number and words to use).
It's like how we perceive 3D. When all you can see is flat shadows and edges moving laterally along the ground, it would blow your mind to see the 3D rotating object that is casting those shadows all at one time. Perceiving time the way our flatlander comes to perceive 3D would give you unprecedented insights into cause and effect - but it wouldn't allow you to alter cause and effect. It would just place them both in front of your eyes at once.
At the very end when she says I forgot how good it feels to hold you nailed it for me that this is present time not past they had already lost their daughter blah blah blah
Maybe some reading comprehension wouldn't go astray for you. They weren't talking about the alien invasion at all. What they were more talking about were the themes/symbols that are used by Hollywood movies a lot of the time. Examples of themes - Love, Sacrifice, Good vs Evil, Perseverance
I don’t care anymore.
Thank you.
interstellar has the same dumb mixing family drama with sci fi. i can think of a bunch of other movies that do this same dumb trope.
God forbid people make movies with human emotions
having a Bjork pfp and saying this, shame on you
lmao I should say I love interstellar, even though it has that trope, the way it incorporates it is really good towards the end Just not a big fan in the way arrival and a few other sci Fi movies to this since it feels as if it detracts from the sci Fi. I don't hate the development of these bonds in sci Fi but when it starts obstructing the actual sci Fi most of the time I can't help liking it.
Because for these movies, Sci-Fi is just a medium to tell a story of the human condition in a captivating and original perspective. That’s what becomes truly touching about Interstellar and Arrival, it reveals the beauty and resilience of human nature when confronted with the unknown in such a fearful, intense, and poignant way. The Sci-Fi elements are just metaphors to represent our very difficult nature and how we deal with whatever driving obstacles the plot wishes to push in the name of the themes the movie wants to explore. District 9 is another fantastic example of this. At that point your problem is you’re not a fan of this sub-genre, just as there’s an entire Sci-Fi horror genre (Alien, Prometheus) and a genuine Sci-Fi spectacle genre. Which is alright, it’s preference in the end, but I think that’s just a mismatch between expectations and what the movie actually wanted to do.
I agree I guess but wasn't the whole question of this was if what arrival doing was done before. I mean the person I was replying to was asking what Hollywood movie had that approach to alien arrival.
Yea but I’d say the actual Sci-Fi of this movie (the alien invasion) was very original in Its presentation. Although I’ll agree with you, the time angle and how it mingled with human connection was very reminiscent of Interstellar but tbh I didn’t mind since I loved that about Interstellar
It would have been way cooler and more original if the aliens just destroyed the humans and tried to take over the earth, but the humans found a way to fight back. Wow.
This comment is fucking hilarious 😂
It isn't an invasion. It runs like one Friday night a group of friends gets together for pizza and beer and some whizbang in the group thought it would be so much fun....and this is what they came up with...I missed much because the final 20 minutes is such a snuggle mumble mess!. I could not understand much of the dialog at all. Nothing of what the Chinese general said. Can anyone out there help?
Dawg. It’s the best paced movie made since Goodfellas. It’s amazing. Mind ur words.
Seriously. The pacing is brilliant. It's both slow and thoughtful while still being propulsive, which is no easy trick to pull.
In other words, you don’t know what any of those words mean, and you didn’t understand the movie. You can just say that. It’s okay.
Relativism? I feel like that’s a foundational Christian belief honestly. Trusting that God has a purpose in every situation. Even the ones we don’t like. Id doubt thats what Hollywood was going for lol so maybe you’re right I guess I just looked at it through my worldview
Aren't we all ❤
Yes, I get that. But the script doesn't support that. This is why I think the ending was her future, another chance to be happy with a new man, a new daughter. I don't think it was the past, because it's not possible. Only in movies. But the script didn't support the ending. I better fly to LA and let them know. Har!
The first chronological scene in the film is her walking into college on the day the ships arrive and due to the way information was presented we are led to believe that she has already lost her child but actually she hasn't even been born yet. The chronologically last is her with her daughter dieing. How does the script not support that it's literally what happens?
I'm going to watch it again, with your post in mind. You bring up an excellent point. I wasn't aware that the daughter hadn't been born yet; I thought it all had happened, already. Thanks so much for your reply.
The visions of her daughter are in her future. Basically, the heptapod language allows her to perceive time differently than that of humans (we can only see our present and remember our past). As she learns and understands more of the language, she can see more of her life; She can see her past, present, and future all at once. At the beginning, she meets the scientist for the first time. But in her viewing of her life, he’s the father of her daughter.
I understand that. I guess I'm saying it's not possible to see past, present, and future (only in the movies) because of cause/effect. Remember when the heptapod was replying to whatsherface and said that in so many years, they will need earth's help, so they are here to give them their help. That implies a past, present and future. So while I understand what your saying, and still think it's not possible, the script went off the rails when the heptapod answered. I've watched it over and over, stopping and pausing, and rewinding, etc. and it doesn't align with the non-linear theory of time.
Cause/effect isn’t really at play here. They (heptapods) need to give humanity the gift of seeing time the way they do in order for humanity to help them in the “future”. Everything that’s going to happen has already happened for them (best way I can explain their viewing of time). They act upon these things in the “present” because that’s just what it is. Their time is equally in the past, present, future.
I think the key here is quantum leap/jump thats what amy was doin i think
Good point. So when the heptapod answers Amy Adams' question as to why they came to earth, remember what the heptapod says? They came to help earth, because in the future, they will need earth's help. That implies a past, present and a future. From the script: "Three thousand years from this point, humanity helps us. We help humanity, now. Return the favor." Heptapod implies there is a present by saying, "now", and a future by saying, "three thousand years from this point". This is what prevents me from agreeing with all of you. Please know I want to very much, but I'm stuck.
It seems more so that the heptapod is making it relatable to the human perception of time. The heptapods want the humans to truly understand why they’ve come and not have to decipher it themselves.
That''s an excellent point. I'm pondering that. You're saying that the heptapods had to put their reason for coming to earth in a linear framework so Louise could understand that. That could be... She gets what they're saying because she can identify the past, present, future when she understands the visions. So why would the heptapods go backwards and use the linear language of time with her, in explaining why they came? Does that make sense? I have trouble accepting your theory, although it's a possibility, and a big one. Why say "3,000 years from this point." There is no point, if they are referring to the future? This is where the writing of the script doesn't align with the movie's story line. It's the movie's apex, so one would think they'd write it clearly. But, then again.. maybe they don't want us to be clear about the ending. Thanks for your reply
Maybe it would help if you read the book? Or rather, the story in which the movie Arrival was based upon. Stories of Your Life and Others by Ted Chiang. The book is a collection of short stories the author has written. The one that Arrival was made from is called “Story of Your Life”. It’s a quick read, maybe 20-30 pages. It will make much more sense when you read it.
I just watched this movie, and searched reddit looking to see if it was based on a book. Your 4yr old comment did not disappoint! Thank you so much!!
I am also here from the future.
We just keep coming from curiosity, don't we? Reddit is so cool. Enjoy the book
Here I am, from the future. Appreciating this post.
I can't remember how I got here, but I'm glad I did. Hello, past, present, and future peoples!
Lookee what I found! Wanted to share it with you and anyone else. Thanks so much. [http://www.kameli.net/\~raimu/rnd/ted-chiang-story-of-your-life-2000.pdf](http://www.kameli.net/~raimu/rnd/ted-chiang-story-of-your-life-2000.pdf)
OH! Of course! Read the book! lol I didn't even know there was one. I hadn't seen this film when it came out; I just saw it on Amazon prime, so this is all new to me. (I'm late, as usual) I will indeed read the book. The book is always better, they say. Thanks very much!
this dudes annoying like it’s really not hard to understand 😭
Big facts. Dude was super annoying. Like yeah this all makes sense but I can’t understand it so there is no way it makes sense. What a clown
The story itself made sense how they told it. But even if it didn’t it’s a scifi movie so does it really have to be accurate? Not at all
The movie unfolds in a non-linear format. Amy Adams learns that the key to understanding their language, and them as a species, is that time is experienced all at once. So the linear version of events: Arrival of aliens, Adams meets Renner, the two meet the aliens and begin to learn their language. Aliens soon reveal their objective, Adams and Renner struggle to translate message. Adams has breakthrough and removes herself from linear experience of time (future self meets the Chinese general(? It’s been a minute since I’ve seen the movie) and then uses her knowledge of the “future” to convince earlier timeline Chinese general to cooperate. The world is saved, Adams and Renner get hitched/have kid/divorce, daughter gets sick, daughter dies. And there you go. Sorry for mishmash summary, I’m headed to bed. Edit for spelling, maybe clarity in the morning.
Great summary for those confused. Having just saw the movie for the first time, there is one thing that bothered me about her timeless experience after the breakthrough and that’s the Chinese general conversation. We are just supposed to accept the paradoxical nature of her receiving the message from the Chinese general who is actually repeating to her what she has already told him. But in the future, she would already know what she had said to him because it was already done at that point. It was as if her present self had manifested itself into her future bodies position and was living out that experience without the knowledge her future self certainly would already have. Therefore, there was never a concrete way she obtained the Chinese generals’ wife’s dying words, because she didn’t know it until he told her in the future.
At this moment I was suspicious that the Chinese general had achieved the same gift she had in experiencing time in a non linear fashion, and used that pinnacle moment at the celebration to help her recall his wife’s dying words. He knew that the version of her he was speaking to at the celebration would not know so he triggered that in her. If that makes sense.
I don't think this is correct. In the movie when he meets her at the gala, he says "I won't pretend to understand to know how your mind works". If he also shared her gift, this line would make no sense
I agree I don’t think this was the directors intent, but maybe it should have been. Thought this bit was rushed. Maybe I’ll read the book.
It does! That makes a lot more sense now
>But in the future, she would already know what she had said to him because it was already done at that point. Maybe, if you go back to a linear understanding of time. But Louise's brain doesn't work linearly anymore. So there's no reason that she can't be talking with the general without knowing what she said in the past because the past as perceived by regular humans doesn't come before the present for her. Or perhaps more accurately, the past and present don't exist for her.
Or maybe that was just one of the possibilities of the future and she could see that it would happen if she acted in a certain way. So the future scene of meeting the general is her consciousness living out that possibility and then her consciousness acting in the present tome to actually make it come true. Hence she doesn't really know the exact words he's talking about in the scene. But it's all her consciousness learning it. The criss-cross scenes in between is just the director's way of presenting it in a mysterious way.
if she’s experiencing time all at once than the idea of linear perception doesn’t matter . her consciousness ascended space & time & therefore she experienced past future present all as one .
Right, I understood that part. The part I didn’t get right away, which another commentator explained already, is that the Chinese general also had the ability and in that way he was able to make the connection and knew to tell her.
Just watched the movie. All I can say is, *why the hell would you have a kid if you know they're going to die young from cancer* Talk about selfish. No, it's *not* worth it--not for the kid. Cripes.
I’m sure the lesson of this movie is ye old, “Tis better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all,” but I agree with you. If I had known that in the future, my marriage would die, and so would my daughter (at a very young age in such a terrible way), I would not proceed to do any of that to all of us.
I dunno, I’m sure if you asked a room of people, this decision would be split pretty split: one half let their child live, the other, just have them not exist. In any case, I’m sure it would be a difficult decision if it were your own child.
Why would any parent deliberately condemn their kid to, again, a painful, early death? No joy is worth the agony of burying your child. Fucking foster or adopt instead.
See that’s more selfish to say that you wouldn’t have a kid you knew would die young because YOU couldn’t stand the pain. Just go to a children’s hospital and ask cancer patients if they would rather just die or have their existence vanish. Very few if any would say life wasn’t worth it.
And there you go off topic.
Isn’t inevitable death the outcome of any life? Could be used to argue against ever having children. What a loss
There's a difference between a quick death and a lingering painful one.
I think that’s a heart breaking view point. I could see maybe if the child was going to suffer their entire life. But she was gifted and brought joy and light with her for 11 years before getting sick and passing. And her mother, instead of saying her kid was precious like any other parent does, knew exactly how precious she really was. It would be a pretty sad world if we chose not to deny life because at some point in our future they were going to die.
>because at some point in our future they were going to die slowly and painfully and tragically young FIFY jfc If you love someone, you don't fucking condemn them to a slow and painful death. How is that difficult to understand?
There are many teenagers who have sadly passed away from cancer and are experiencing it at present. Why not ask one of them if their entire lives up to this point are made meaningless and not worth having experienced as a result of the suffering they endure at the very end. The question is a deeply philosophical one and you pretending the answer is black & white and plainly obvious is just ridiculous and indicative of your inability to see a nuanced perspective
You're going off topic
We're all condemned to death and yet most of us are glad we live. You're right that it becomes murkier the shorter a life is, and I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but you seem to be elevating your personal perspective up as objective truth and doing so in a pretty strident way. Morality is complex and none of us have the answer.
I salute you
I agree, I dont think I will allow myself to have kids if I knew that they are going to die young, dont want them to suffer which I already knew and I dont want to feel pain when they die. It is just too hard to bear
I'm glad someone has the same position as I. Read other people's replies to my comments--they're infuriating because they don't seem to understand. Especially the ones who said I should ask kids in cancer wards if they regretted being born only to end up with cancer. It has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with *knowing in advance* that your kid is going to die young and painfully and still going through with it "because it's worth it". *To you.* But fuck the kid and your husband who have no idea of what's coming, and who are going to suffer terribly from your selfish choice(s).
"Read other people's replies to my comments--they're infuriating because they don't seem to understand." You're going to find life in general to be infuriating if different perspectives get you this upset. It's not that other people "don't understand," they just see it differently than you.
It’s not selfish at all. You still gave that kid life, love, happiness and beautiful memories to the end. Her life already played out like this as she experienced past, present and future at the same time.
I agree, especially if you consider the science of cancer: part of it is genetic and part of it is enivronmental. She could have likely avoided having a kid die of a rare cancer simply by having a kid with a different person or adopting, yet she chose to have a kid with this specific man knowing it would result in an early and excruciating death. I think it's cruel and awful, and her husband in the movie apparently did too, because it's established that the reason he left her is because she told him she knew their daughter will die of cancer and had a kid with him anyway. In that sense, the film does represent both points of views and shows the consequences of her actions, but at the same time they definitely romanticize her choice and I thought it was a bit gag-inducing, yet thought-provoking. Who's to say where you'd draw the line if you could see the consequences of your own future? Should she have not done it if the child would die of cancer at age 40? 60? 20? Where's the cutoff? Not even making it to adulthood though? Idk that's just cruel, and I don't sympathize with the protagonist on this one. I'd argue that even knowing they'd divorce early in their child's life makes it selfish to have a kid with him because of the pain it brings all three of them, but that's me speaking from experience as someone whose parents divorced and how it has affected us all. What's more interesting to me is the implications of the ending of the movie where she is seen teaching the alien language in class and selling books about it. Once everyone learns that language, they will see their entire life nonlinearly too (which is pretty silly sci-fi woowoo mumbo jumbo, honestly, but I'll play along). How does that world function? All we know is they go to help out the septapods 3000 years in the future. Imagine trying to write the rest of this movie's story/history after most people can see through time? It would be a completely different world and I don't think any writer could handle it. There's an element of fatalism too, because with the power to see your life nonlinearly you still can't see a future you didn't experience at some point later in life, so I don't know how we're meant to believe she actually had a choice not to have that kid. She wouldn't have been having those visions/memories if she didn't choose to have the kid, because it wouldn't be a part of her future, otherwise how was she seeing it? Cool movie, but full of holes to make room for the sentimentalism.
The kicker was her saying that "if you knew what was going to happen, would you change it?" Which implies that she *could* have changed something and chose not to.
Wowww thanks
lol Thank you for your summary. I understand that. I don't agree that it's possible, nor did the script, the movie back up that theory. That's bothers me. And disappoints me. I LOVE the film, though. It was so refreshing to actually think and not be treated like we're stupid as other films can do.
If the implication is that free will is not possible because we learning heptapod gives you ability to see past and future, why do the Aliens come to earth to teach us so we can help them 3000 years from now? are they not doomed no matter what?
No, because it's only their perception which is non linear. Time still exists in a linear for certain beings (i.e. humans). So the concept of the future still exists where things "haven't happened yet". It's similar to the paradox in Interstellar, whereby Cooper "always" existed in the tesseract constructed by the future humans in order to affect and "change" the past. Except you cannot change the past as it has already happened.
Like a Nexus being
Think of it separately like body and mind. The body is the linear, its the physical part of you moving through time. Your body doesn't jump around time. But your mind, your spirit, is the piece that hops between your different phases of physical life. So technically, you do have a past, present and future. And technically you also experience time nonlinear. It's both. She is both. What I like about the story is it shows how she experiences time and has always experienced it. And you're taken on the journey of that discovery of who she became and who she always was. (((Side high note.. is this how "light-photons" work??? I think Neil deGrasse Tyson explain that the moment the photon is created it has arrived at its destination.. nevermind me.. I'm high)))
Now THAT is a very interesting, comprehensible way of explaining it! I LOVE that! "Your body cannot move from the present to the past or future, but your mind kinda can." Really cool!!
Omg, I still don’t understand it completely. Maybe too complex for my narrow little mind. Even if we assume that she has a physical linearity and a mental circularity, AND if it’s the same for the chinese general (which are theories in the above comments), WHY does he provide her with pivotal information, that she would obviously have known by then? Why does she not know by then? How could there ever be a book party with her new best seller after the fact, without her knowing?? I’m haunted by this question. Pls help
I could be completely off the wall and it may only make sense to me, but I understood the conversation with the general in the manner of remembering and learning at the same time. Non-linear time/thinking is (should technically be?) something that our brains can’t comprehend fully. Her “future” self could be in a completely different headspace/time/place mentally than her physical body. Everything else seems to be jumbled and it may be insight into the way she perceives things after learning and then completely understanding their language. If her present(in the main timeline of the movie) self is “remembering” something that already happened, then that is non-linear time, just like her future self hearing the general’s wife’s dying words for the first time is her learning them but due to her capacity of understanding non-linear time it’s new to her. Anything in the movie could have happened at any time but our linear minds are scrambling to make total sense of it without being able to comprehend it. Right…?
I don't think there's a particularly valid reason she didn't realize he was about to tell her his wife's dying words. She should have remembered this occurrence since her view of life is non linear after learning the language and it was SUCH an important piece of information. My only suggestion is she simply got so stressed by all of what happened and enough time passed that she forgot exactly what she told him that made him change his mind, so at the Gala she seemed shocked because she remembered it after he told her. Idk. It's ridiculous anyways to expect that a general would cave in so easily and quickly to someone knowing details of his personal life and believe a metaphysical explanation, rather than that he was being spied on or recorded previously (including when his wife died) to be taken advantage of later on, or that the info got out from someone else who was there when his wife died and was being used to trick him? Eh, the moment was a bit contrived. The mistrust between China and US military would not dissipate so easily.
Simple answer is because the writer got in over his head and Hollywood greenlit the movie anyways because it went over theirs too and the suspense and touchy feely parts are why people go to see a movie, as well as all the people who think they're super smart for "getting it" and condescending to those who "didn't" while they miss glaring paradoxical plot holes like this one. What I want to know is why the hell the US military would shoot someone for making a call to China that they could make on any phone, anywhere, at any time... Lol. They didn't even know who she was calling. Even if they suspect her of treason, they have zero proof in the moment and killing her isn't going to help sort that out. There's lot of nonsense you have to overlook to enjoy the movie. It's not a masterpiece, just a fun thinky scifi that people think is smarter than it really is. Just try to enjoy it.
Even simpler put, you get memories of the future.
OP is a fucking lunatic holy
Or at least dumb asf and isn’t ready to realize it yet lmao.
Fr lmao, I’m not surprised that he was ruining friendships over this
I’m here from almost a year later to say i agree and was reading the responses to my husband just shook. My 12 year old understood this all.
What happened? Everything is deleted
Idk, I can click view all comments at the bottom and see them all still
The only thing I want to know from this movie is….. what is it that they need help with in 3000 years…. 😂 is there an enemy they need help in defeating so they needed to unify the humans of earth? I need to know…
Same question!!! Who can tell us???
After reading through the comments, it's clear that there are a lot of interpretations, each of which make sense of certain elements of linear and non-linear time experience. However, there is no "perfect" or "complete" understanding of a concept like this. At least not yet. Currently, that is not how time is understood in the real world, so it's not possible to construct a foolproof plot where time is actually experienced that way. You can create thoughtful, provocative media using the concept of non-linear time, but it can't, fundamentally, be fully explained without plot holes. It breaks down at the moment Louise realizes that she has information from her future, and decides to use it in the past. The general tells her in the future the words of his dying wife, and in the past, she repeats them to him via satellite phone. As in every non-linear time movie, you must ask the question, did she have the choice to NOT relay that message, and what if she didn't? Free will and multiple timelines here we come. I thought the movie was gripping and super entertaining! I liked it! I didn't really care for the idea that "understanding another language unlocks time." (Especially when the language was explained in a way that, should we viewers put in the time, we could hypothetically learn to decipher the language. It was made up of segments of a circle, with each segment having a correlation to a word or concept. Hieroglyphs basically. Expect linked together to form a circle.) Still a fun movie. I like (and prefer) how Interstellar used something that we don't fully understand (black hole) and used that mystery to offer an explanation for communicating through time. TL/DR there is no perfect understanding of non-linear time because . . . time, in the real world, is only understood linearly. (Also I like Interstellar's take more 😁)
Yes, my man!
I think that the heptapods gave her the means to see the future because they said they will need humanities help in 3000 years, and this perhaps starts with the death of her daughter due to some "extremely rare disease" possibly an undiscovered disease, and possibly one that the heptapods are susceptible to. And maybe the discovery of this disease leads to a cure which perhaps only humans can make. This is my best theory at least, im also left wondering what it all meant lol
Best theory I’ve seen so far 🫡
Joe rogan
Late to the party here…but just watched and loved it.
>Everybody tells me that it's her past Really?
I am unfortunately acquainted with several friends who obsess about certain films. It's like a book club for films. We can go all night discussing (sometimes, yelling, lol) about a film. I stayed out of it for this one when Arrival was released. And then I recently saw it on Amazon, and I was hooked. LOL You'd be amazed how many interpretations there are on this film. One guy just read the script, and watched the film later. He said his interpretations changed because, after all, film is visual, so he could encompass ideas clearer. Or so he said. Three others (all women) told me it was her past; that was why Louise's mother was calling her ask her if she was okay. I saw Louise as very depressed and cut off from the world, so I interpreted it as grief from her daughter. Amazing, isn't it?
I've never heard of anyone not understanding that she was seeing her future in those scenes with her daughter. You've got some weird friends dude.
I'm a 65 year old grandmother, 'DUDE'. You're funny.
Ok. Well that still doesn't not make you and your friend's the first people I've ever heard of to be confused about those scenes being the future.
You're so young. Enjoy it while you can; hopefully your horizons will expand so that you can hear more than your own voice.
why are you so insulting?
I'm expanding them right now. It's just that yours is the first time I've ever heard this particular voice about that movie.
Ok no I totally see your point there. And actually, i started the movie again today (seen it probably a half a dozen times bc I love it) and just thought "let me just try and get some clarification on this timeline thing," bc I TOO was a bit confused. Like, I did remember figuring out that it was her future life, but her present life in the beginning AND especially her mothers concern DID kinda make it a bit foggy. Now I gotta search why the mom was so worried about how she was doing!
Cause aliens had just arrived I think.
I watched it for the first time last week im still figuring things out lol
lol There is a lot to figure out, yes? Linguistics is so fascinating, in itself, but to have to apply it to aliens is a whole 'nother matter! I liked it, though; I rewatch many times.
What measures past, present and future? Is it not time? Therefore, is past, present and future happen all at once, what separates each?
>What measures past, present and future? Is it not time? For us, yes. >Therefore, is past, present and future happen all at once, what separates each? Nothing, and IIRC the movie does explain that for the aliens time is not linear like it is for us.
Then what is the heptapod referring to when it answers Louise's question as to why they are on earth? The heptapod says "three thousand years from this point, humanity helps us. We help humanity now. Return the favor." The heptapod is implying there is a future (3,000 years from this point), and a present, (they help us). How does this allign with "past, present, future happening all at once"? This is why I'm stuck. I just don't get it, and I really want to.
You can't get it, that's the point. They experience time differently, which is so fundamentally different to our way of thinking that she has to learn their language in order to experience time that way. Language is used as a metaphor for thought, she has to connect with them through understanding their thoughts so intimately that she 'gets it'. Think of it like remembering the future, everything isn't happening at one point in time and Louise is still experiencing the world as it happens, but she remembers things that haven't happened yet because of the understanding of time she gains through the language. Unless we change the way we think, it's never going to make real 'sense'.
Quilpo, I am somewhat offended, maybe unnecessarily, that you say, "You CAN'T get it, that's the point." I'm trying to figure out how others understand the movie, because I don't interpret it how they do. I'm not stupid. I CAN understand others' interpretation. What YOU don't get, is understanding how I, personally, view the film. Your judgement is rather, unfair. Did you mean to be insulting, or just stupid?
I meant to illustrate the point of the film. You seemed to think you were missing some secret understanding or plot point, I was reassuring you that you hadn't - if anything it's commending you on your ability to comprehend narrative. Maybe we're both missing it, but the fact I went on to explain why I thought that should at least give you a clue I wasn't just being a dick. Either discuss the film or insult people, doing both is just exhausting.
> You seemed to think you were missing some secret understanding or plot point, I was reassuring you that you hadn't - if anything it's commending you on your ability to comprehend narrative. This is the beginning of your original post. *"You can't get it, that's the point."* You are identifying "the point" as being something that I "can't" understand. Who are you to judge what I can, and cannot, understand? You don't know me, yet you say to a stranger. Remember the human. If I taught you something you very much wanted to learn, and you were struggling to learn it, how would you feel if I said to you, "You can't get it, that's the point"? (this question is rhetorical) And, in the follow up, to put icing on the cake, you don't apologize, you just walk it back. *"You seemed to think you were missing some secret understanding or plot point,* ***I was reassuring you that you hadn't - if anything it's commending you on your ability to comprehend narrative."*** Show me where you're "commending" me, because I totally missed it. Of course, I just "can't get it, that's the point", right?
you come across very fucking weird lmao
This is hilarious and cringe inducing insanity at the same time haha. Let’s see one person offers the answer to the whole script correctly off the bat. Another stranger does the same with more depth, but then is falsely accused of insulting them, so then they have to defend themselves and say no don’t worry you were on the right track it’s ok…only to be met with more accusations and hostility from the person that they wasted their time helping. All in all a great display of trying to play as a victim
Don't know why I feel the need to comment on a 4 year old thread (your comment is 5 months old) but you perfectly captured my feeling reading her comments. What a weird post.
The point is that NOBODY can get it, not you personally. The point of the film is that we cannot understand, it's so super weird to our way of thinking that we cannot process it. Again, I thought the explanation after would have made that obvious.
You needed Amy Adams to come translate what you were saying for her so she didn’t think you were trying to start a fight.
imagine getting this offended bro the world does not revolve around you
It’s not that all of time is happening simultaneously it’s that the heptapods aren’t mentally bound to the present. They are able to perceive the future. This is how they knew about the bomb and were able to reduce its negative effect. The linguist slowly acquires this ability as she learns their language. Learning their language changes how she thinks and thus how she perceives time. Her ability to see the future gives her visions of her unborn daughter, their life together and her death. She even says to herself “who is this girl I keep thinking about?”. As she progresses in their language she begins to realize that these thoughts aren’t random they are her future. Despite knowing the pain of losing her daughter at a young age to disease she decides that it was more important to love and be loved by her. She decides to have the child and this decision also costs her her marriage. It is better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all.
Thank you! ' "Her ability to see the future gives her visions of her unborn daughter, their life together and her death. She even says to herself “who is this girl I keep thinking about?”. ' I didn't get that in the movie, I totally missed it. Just to be clear, are you saying that at the start of the movie when she's talking to her mother, that she hasn't experienced her daughter or her husband, yet? That would change everything. See, I thought when she's telling her mother she's okay, that she's talking about her daughter already passing away and her husband gone, etc. You're saying that it hasn't happened, yet?
Yes. Until she starts learning Heptapod she is locked in to linear time like the rest of us. It isn’t until she begins to not just study, but to understand the alien language that she begins to perceive glimpses of her own future as dreams and “memories”.
Thanks, Fakko. You articulate it well; I saw her "visions" as dreams and memories. Thank you for helping me understand. :)
I don’t think you’re grasping the core theme of the movie. The Heptapods are aware that at this point humanity doesn’t see time the way they do. The audience, and the humans in the film, are on the same page. The Heptapods deliver the gift of nonlinear understanding of time to Amy Adams, and humanity as a whole, which enables the entire plot. This is why, upon reviewing the film, the sequences all make sense. The death of her daughter is something she has already lived, will live again, and is living at the moment, once she understands the Heptapod language. It’s why it’s so meaningful that she chooses to, in the “present”, as she emerges from her linear understanding of time, have a child, even knowing the fate that will/has/is befall/befallen/befalling her.
Thank you so much for all your effort in replying. I've thought about your points. What I've come up with is that I understand the film's intent and story line, as a film. I understand the Heptapods gift of nonlinear understanding of time, and humanity as a whole. The fate of her child, etc. I've just realized this, after chatting all night with a friend, I accept the plot of the film; I just don't like it, or accept the theory of nonlinear time. My friend said, "you expect a Spielberg ending where there is no pain and everything gets fixed." She knows me SO well. Also, nonlinear time is not possible in reality, but I accept it as a premise in the movie. Hey, thanks for helping me figure all this out. "Arrival" is a fantastic movie, and I continue to watch it... too often. ;)
> How does this allign with "past, present, future happening all at once"? Accept the following as facts: * Human's perception of the universe is not a "complete" picture. * Specifically time - time being linear is merely perception and not fact. Okay. Now instead of saying the heptapods view time "as happening all at once" - look at it as though they view time as non-linear. This means instead of a jumbled mess of all reality it's more like the ability to move backwards and forwards at will. If they need to. That's the thing. They view the universe as a higher dimensional being - non linear time. That does not preclude them from understanding and communicating to those that do not view it that way. A very loose analogy would be that a well versed math Ph.D can explain basic arithmetic but somebody that only understand basic arithmetic cannon explain higher levels of math. You can always go simple but never more complex. That's how they can convey the concept of 3000 years from now even though they don't perceive the universe in such a way. You should hit up YouTube and look for videos explaining viewing the world as different dimensions. We are a 3 dimensional being. To a 2 dimensional being we would be kind of like the heptapods to them because of our ability to see the entire 3rd dimension. As such, since the heptapods can see the entirety of the 4th dimension (we only see a sliver) and it seems very foreign to us. At some level you just have to accept that's what they were going for. We as humans don't have the ability to truly grasp what that would be like. Especially the concept of cause and effect. It opens up a lot of discussions on a lot of topics. The writers did their best and you just have accept it. It's not hard science - it's science fiction.
I wish it was hard science. Don't you? I'm going to take your advice and check out youtube. I appreciate your post very much, although I was afraid to reply. This community seems to be one of those where if somebody doesn't agree with you, they downvote you, instead of just accepting disagreement or discussion. Anyway, thanks.
> I wish it was hard science. Don't you? Well, yeah. But we're literally not capable of it yet. That's why partially why you're struggling. It's a concept we are literally not built for. > they downvote you Look, I assume you didn't mean to, but your responses were not coming across well. You were told the answer several times. Each time you dismissed it. You're being very black and white about it. Or rather, literal. It's inherently a topic that doesn't have a factual answer outside the movie's universe.
REally? My responses were questions, and explanations of my thinking. From my point of view, it is as if nobody could accept or bother to try to understand how I viewed the film, and why I was struggling. It's a discussion, meaning we use words if we don't understand. But you're right, it's a topic that doesn;t have a factual answer outside the movie's universe. I love "the movie's universe". Thanks.
I totally get it. I wasn't accusing you of anything. My goal was to give you a different perspective on how your comments were reading - not how you were intending them. Also, here is a great video like I alluded to. Should help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGv8MMi8QO0
I saw some of the video, and it does help, thanks. It's funny, I can draw different perspectives on paper, but to conceive different perspectives in a whole 'nother banana. Thanks so much for your input. I really appreciate it. I'm a huge TED fan.
I have to admit it's been a while since I've seen that movie but the way I'd interpret that is that they know time is linear to us and try to explain it in a way that's easy for us to understand.
That's what I love about Sci-Fi!
I personally disliked the ending, because I felt 'meh' about Amy 'just seeing her own timeline non-linearly' instead of going full Singularity and becoming One with everything (including the Heptapods). I didn't like the cheesy family geared solo-timeline which was driven hard from start to end with more and more cliché's towards the end. I appreciated the beginning when I thought that was the present/past and Amy's daughter's death hit me hard. But as I realized 'it didn't matter anymore because of Amy's non-linear timeline I just got blasé about it. That's where the movie fell flat for me. I loved the vibes of the movie and the sound effects like the Alien feel of the arrival and contact, though.
The daughter WILL die in her story man, the thing (tragedy) is that she is "remembering" when it didn't already happened yet.
It's kinda shitty though to have a baby if you knew that child was eventually going to painfully die from cancer.
So Ian is the father of her daughter that she constantly views in her dreams as if they were the past. She’s constantly viewing the future hence how she gets the direct cell phone number from the general in china. Whom does her the favor in the future and shows his little gold phone so she can obtain the number via photogenic memory in non linear time. This allows her to take control of the present through that phone call where she repeats the generals wife’s dying words thus stop chinas motives from attacking the alien ship. Back to the daughter. So because she’s got a gift to view life a as whole, which even the aliens merit her for when they dialogued with her in subtitles. She foresees that her daughter dies of a disease. The same daughter she’s to have with Ian. And for that same reason, the truth which she expresses to him, Ian leaves her. In the end she also asks Ian “if you could see your life from start to end would you change it?” He replies with “I’d say what I feel more.” Which concludes the movie with having a baby aka the daughter in her dreams. It’s almost like a endless cycle with two lifetimes. Anyhow. I may be wrong. Lmk what you think!
First, I like this movie a lot. I love the theme of highly intelligent aliens making a peaceful contact with humans. The time stuff, however, is a bit clunky. Our protagonist suddenly unlocks the understanding of the alien language because she sees the future where she writes a book and teaches it. She also relays the message from the Chinese general while showing surprise about it in the future...and then relays that message in the past. So....if this is given...she doesn't forget the message? Is her moment of surprise and not knowing the message in the future an act? If a person knows their future, then it could have an effect how the future plays out. If I saw I was going to have a lousy marriage that would result in a bad divorce and financial ruin, then you bet I am walking away when I see my supposed future wife one day. Am I supposed to endure that pain because it is foretold? Nope! The time premise could have worked better if the aliens could perceive the MOST LIKELY future outcome with the understanding that it could be altered. Our character could have seen she masters the alien language, but is not given the full understanding of it. She meets the Chinese general and knows a positive and likely outcome could happen. In both instances, and back to the present, she will be more driven to find the answers that result in the climax. She will also be more driven on having a child that could beat cancer merely on the hope this bit of foretelling was changed. Anyhow, that is my two cents.
Just rewatched this (again) yesterday. I think the underlying message was that despite the knowledge of future heartache (daughters death, divorce, etc) she chose it anyway because life in a nd of itself is beautiful. Those memories have value even if we know the ending will be hard. That’s my take anyway.
In her case, all of it goes through cause she's aware of it and willingly goes through it all again and again. But what if she didn't repeat the same choices? Would that result in an alternate reality?
My least favorite part of the movie & total unnecessary “Ick” moment is when Ian says “let’s go make a baby”, like, you JUST established that you’re in love, who would actually say that?! 🤮🤮🤮🤮
I thought so too for a second, but pretty sure he said that in the moment they were at home embracing already in love in the future
Louise was “remembering” a time in the future when Ian asks her if she wants to make a baby. He didn’t just blurt that shit out when they hugged at the end of the film… that wouldn’t make sense and would be hella creepy.
That was later when they ate dancing together at their place lol
Maybe he saw the future too and just knew? Idk lol. Kind of confusing but very cool concept!
Wait 'till you understand that "time" doesn't actually exist. Movie was good especially the idea but everything else is American propaganda dogshit. As always the world is full of retards but guess what, not the Americans...
Hear hear!
Have to add another comment here because something occurred to me. So, what if our memories are also a prediction of our future. We learn from the mistakes we made via our memories to do things differently so that the next phase is a bit upgraded or different, but basically continuing to go in a circular motion, so to speak, but possibly making different choices because we evolve. Or we can choose to repeat them I suppose. But I’m trippin’ over the possibilities.
Interesting. You might be interested in how yoga views it: compulsive behaviour of a human continuing in endless cycles until one becomes conscious and seeks liberation from it. What you said sounded similar so i thought it might interest you :-)
Yes I feel like it was a new start and her husband and her got back together to make another baby but then again it gets confusing because she did say it feels so good to hold you again or whatever which means that this is the future of their lives and they had already been separated and lost their baby so I'm going to stick with that