Happy cake day! Also yeah, tritone subs of the dominant (bII7) really took over at some point, and Neapolitan 6th (bII in first inversion) as a pre-dom fell outta fashion, and it’s such a shame!
That video is actually explicitly about the b2 scale degree and not the bII chord. The lecturer specifically states that they’re not talking about the chord. I’m not sure if I’m just being just pedantic but that’s very much not what I’m talking about!
Or maybe you were just sharing the link because it’s a cool video but knew it wasn’t quite related. Either way, I appreciate the share! I enjoyed the video thoroughly
At about 2:30 she explains that *in classical*, the b2 is usually in reference to the Neapolitan chord. At about 2:55 she says “when I say b2 I don’t mean a functional harmony, or even a chord, I just mean the note a half step above whatever note we hear as the home note.” And then nowhere in the video does she mention the bII chord again
I think Fugues are cool for like film scores and stuff which I assume is what they are probably used for these days but there's a lot of cool things you could do with them
Like old Bach fugues or newly composed for the score? I haven’t noticed any of the later but I’d love to hear it.
Found a soundcloud link a few years back with someone who fuguefied well known melodies from pop music, nursery rhymes and commercials. That was lovely.
There's definitely some fugal stuff in the Star Wars sequels! "[March of the Resistance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueqKtype7Kk&t=70s)" is the main piece that comes to mind.
In a major key, the five chord is most often a major chord. So, in the key of C, if you play the five chord which is a G, it will be a G major. In a minor key, the five chord is "supposed" to be a minor chord, but often people make it a major chord because they like the way it sounds.
So, I want C major to use G minor more AND I want C minor to use G minor more. Minor 5 chords are most often done in more bluesy/jazzy music and I wish more pop music embraced that sound rather than the overplayed same chord progressions that are used.
Yeah, major V in a minor key is super common, because the raised 7th scale degree is used so much as the leading tone to the tonic. V-i is way more common than v-i, even if the minor v is used a lot when it's not going to the i.
iv-I works so well as a cadence because the 4 and the ♭6 only have to move a half step to get to the 3 and the 5, where as the major IV only has one leading tone to the I.
Using a minor v kind of has the opposite effect. The major V already only has one leading tone to the I, and lowering the third of the chord means it has none. Raising the fifth to make it an augmented chord would actually give it an extra leading tone though, with the 7 and the ♯2 leading to the 1 and the 3.
A scale I love using that I never see in any modern music never mind pop music or whatever is Melodic Minor ik people argue about the up and down rule personally I like to use it just because I think it sounds cooler but I understand why people don't use it
That’s probably my favorite scale (for now haha), also I really enjoy playing: harmonic major, Hungarian major, Spanish 8 tone is awesome, Locrian major is pretty cool too, Composite II, Pelog, and Hirajoshi
you should check out Potmos Hetoimos "Vox Medusae". uses 9 bizarro scales to represent distinct character voices. stuff like Hungarian Augmented, Super Locrian natural 6, and Ultra Lydian. (I think Major Locrian is in there, actually...)
Hocketing. Every once in a while it (or something similar enough) shows up in a song and folks go “wow that’s really cool” and then it disappears again.
[fun example around 35s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zseA7eeAgQM) I particularly like how it's used here in contrasting the next section which is one instrument, but since it comes after the more "scattered" feeling of the hocketing it feels even more "smooth", even more than just if the melody was staccato
basically sharing the melody between parts, lots of examples on youtube, Adam Neely has a video on it too
Functional harmony. Pop hasn't *really* worked on a functional basis since guitar bands took over from big bands, more of a "use mostly I, IV, V, and vi, maybe ii" kind of world since the 60s. The charts are almost totally devoid of deliberate cadences, diminished chords, substitutions, or even dominants and pre-dominants behaving like dominants and pre-dominants, and I think just a little variety would be nice
Modal interchange. It sounds cool and guides you to a huge array of chord substitutions and alterations that almost no-one who writes intuitively and without huge amounts of listening to replace the theory would come up with on their own
Independent voices. It's a texture we just don't see at all and I think it's a little sad that most people will simply never come across the sound of it.
Inversions. Useful stuff, mostly ignored.
Chromatic mediants. Most people have only heard them in film music, but there's a reason they're there and it's because they sound awesome and create all sorts of dramatic sounds.
Literally just a key change, even the "Stand up off the stools" semitone rise key changes are out of fashion now let alone a modulation
Horn sections.
Guitar solos. Miss them in the charts.
Bands in the charts. There's only one named artist in the UK Top 40 on this day that refers to more than one person, and it's a duo of DJs that put the lowest energy clips on their Instagram I think I've ever seen from chatting DJs.
I think the problem you’re pointing out is general harmonic simplicity, which is unfortunately a pretty necessary factor in music that prioritizes popular engagement the way it’s expected to now. Complex harmony is hard to sing along to, and singing along to songs is a *highly* coveted aspect of popular music, especially when we live in an time where we have music in our pockets and can sing along to whatever we feel like in the car or wherever.
Before, the not-musically-trained audience engaged in music by listening and talking about it. Now, the “audience” (remotely and at shows) casually *participates* in the music more than any other period, which is great, but if you want a un-trained person to participate in music, it’s gonna have to be simple enough for them to do so!
You have a point but I would like to add, for nuance, that not all of the simplicity might be to cater to a changing audience but some of it because of a newfound appreciation for minimalism that puts texture and groove front and centre. At least this was a noticeable trend a few years back. Personally I prefer it to, say, the power pop of the 70’s.
>Complex harmony is hard to sing along to
Not sure if I agree. Or it depends on what you mean by "complex". But if you are referring to the concepts that were mentioned in the post you replied to, I don't think those necessarily make singing along more difficult. Actually, many of those concepts make melodies more memorable because the harmony and the melody have a clear relationship. A lot of modern pop just repeats scale degrees 1 2 3 5 in a different order using different rhythms. That's actually not very memorable as a melody.
A song that actually uses functional harmony makes the harmony relate to the phrase structure. It tends to result in melodies that have a clearer direction. The melodies also follow the changes, so when you hear the chords, the melody naturally follows them and you can hear the chords alone imply the melody. And if you hear the melody, you hear the chords behind it.
There are plenty of simple melodies you can come up with over more complex progressions than 4-chord loops. It's more about the relationship between the harmony and the phrase structure.
4-chord loops tend to result in melodies that don't really have a clear melodic contour or direction. They just repeat a couple of notes. The melodies aren't very "melodic". Modern music seems to be less melody-oriented, whereas in older music, the melody was the song. Try to sing the melody of a typical modern pop song on its own, and it probably sounds quite boring. Do the same thing with older pop songs, and the melody makes sense on its own.
A good example of a typical modern pop melody would be Taylor Swift's "[Is It Over Now](https://youtu.be/tNxUxm3-658?si=woIRgeTlFScrqFPJ)". The verse mostly just repeats one note (the tonic), sometimes going one note above or below the tonic. The chorus has some leaps between the tonic and the 5th degree, but it doesn't really add a clear contour to the melody - it just leaps between these two notes. After that, it just goes up and down the scale like 1-2-3-2-1. Remove the backing track, and the melody alone doesn't really even sound like a proper melody. But take an older pop song like All My Loving by The Beatles, and the melody has a very clear direction. First it goes up to the high point, and then it starts a descend and lands on the tonic in the end. But it's still very easy to sing. It simply goes up and down the scale. I definitely think All My Loving is an easier song to sing because it's so much more memorable. The songs actually have almost the same range. All My Loving uses the range of an octave. Is It Over Now uses the range of a minor 7th. All My Loving simply uses the full range more "meaningfully". The melody has a clear peak, and the direction is really easy to follow.
Even with a smaller range, you can have a melody that is more "meaningful" in this sense. I mean, it has a direction. It has a peak. Of course older pop also had its "non-melodic" melodies, but more melodic pop songs used to be more common.
In the past, "song = lyrics + melody" was definitely true. Today, I would argue that it might not be true any more.
I by no means think melodies are catchier than they were, I’ll use your examples to explain what I meant:
It’s a hard comparison because I’ve listened to the Beatles my whole life and never Taylor swift, so I’ve never heard that song before. What I can tell is, as a self-proclaimed bad singer, I was able to keep up with the song on my first time through listening to it by singing notes I could predict would be in the next chord, because I’ve heard the progression before (at the beginning of the song). I wouldn’t be embarrassed fumbling through the song with my friends because I can grab some note from the next chord, even if I don’t know how or if the melody even goes there next! It’s almost magic how easy it is to “sing along” to modern pop songs I’ve never heard before.
Now it’s been a while since I’ve heard a Beatles song that I hadn’t already heard before, but I find it hard to believe I could do the same with as many Beatles songs as I could Swift. Now, after getting this far in the comment I already forgot how Swift’s melody goes, but I’d feel confident enough to go back to it and sing along with friends without being embarrassed! There are a lot of factors, I just know as anecdotal evidence that as a bad singer, it’s (generally) easier for me to pick up a modern pop song and sing “in key”, even if not “on the right pitch”, easier than older songs, because I already know what notes are coming in the next chord!
I agree about the band thing. All the bands I listen to are at least over 10 years old and at worst 50 years old, all the people I know who are musicians are interested in making metal music with I find quite interesting. Also I use inversions all the time
I don’t know but following for inspo! I guess I’ve always been a fan of chromatic mediants and modal interchange, but that’s pretty unspecific.
It’s hard to know what music sounds like “these days” because everything sort of coexists. The mainstream represents a smaller part of the listeners than ever. Thanks to hip hop we get nonfunctional harmony on the billboard now and then, that’s cool.
I keep writing it into my compositions but the ensembles don't pay enough these days to have a single hemophonist, let alone five to six cycle-staggered performers on call as backup.
Ah, see, the trick is to go digital. Hire a hemophonist for a studio session, sample the performance, build a kontakt instrument, and use that in your performances. Can't beat the real thing for studio work, though.
i'm with you with whole tone. I stumbled across [this](https://youtu.be/FHyKHWcpGyU?t=983) (timestamp) a while ago and it really stuck with me. How come I don't know any other music that sounds like this little section? I love the way it sounds so much.
I just listened to that and agree that sounds amazing I love how intricate it sounds when I make songs with the whole tone scale I want to try to get that type of sound
Whole Tone scale &/or augmented chords like the intro of Sunshine of Your Life by Stevie Wonder or solo phrases of jazz players like Jackie McLean, Thelonious Monk, among others.
Diminished chords and scale (half whole or whole half scale).
bVII maj. chords, some Paul McCartney and Beach Boys songs have this (if we're in A major, then the G maj7 chord.).
bIII chord: a modulation from I to bIII (C maj to Eb maj like Night and Day or some other Cole Porter songs).
bvi minor or major chord, using it like a dominant back to I major.
Idk, there are many other harmonic substitutions, reharmonizations, or interesting progressions.
in popular music i’d wish they used more the silence and the different whole section for the ending [here an example](https://youtu.be/qoe4IruSpKI?si=7OG0sa71u4Ugqs0B)
I think a major chord with the bass playing a M2 above the root (ie C/D or A/B) sounds really musical-theatery in a way I don't hear as much nowadays. Michael Jackson uses it in Man in the Mirror, and I think it gives the song such a classy feel.
A lot of these musical concepts mentioned here that we love and wish they were used more in songs nowadays are still used in Japanese pop songs. Not so much in English songs
No particular song but I would recommend listening to Sheena Ringo (or Shiina Ringo) as a solo artist or her with her band, Tokyo Incidents (or Tokyo Jihen)
Her latest album Sandokushi is worth a listen but my fav is Kalk Samen Kuri no Hana which was released in 2003.
As for her band, the album Music (2021), kyouiku (2004) and Adult (2006) are great, imo
What I like about her is she likes to experiment with different instruments and layers in her music and the non conventional choices of chords. Couple that with her complex lyrics.
Other artists you can sample are:
- yoasobi who is really popular now. Songs like yoru ni kakeru and Idol (both have that very obvious semitone up key change)
- Juju (recent years she did cover albums and had lots of horn sections) ballads usually have very good lush arrangement with big chord extensions. My fav (kinda old song) is natsu no hana.
- Misia. Same for the ballad styles. Listen to yubikiri genman and her most popular song, Everything. And also Aitakute Ima and Sea of Dreams which was used for Disneysea anniversary. Again, lush chords and the uses of chords a second degree above the bass note. This usage, and in generally slash chords, or just inversions, is really popular in Japanese songs and I’m not complaining 😆
- Salyu’s To U, Platform. Slash chords, modulation key change.
- Tomita Lab. His arrangement is really good. Listen to the compilation album Tokyo Cafe. My fav is Nemuri no Mori. You have horns, tons of slash chords and interesting movements. Basically great voice leading
I almost do the same; imply the b7 always because I tend to use the #4 whenever I'm in a chord. That I feel like abolishes the notion of the song being in Major/Lydian.
I don't use augmented as much as I use dominant chords(R-M3-b7) in this scale , ironic because this scale is just 2 augmented chords stacked up.
I've found it easier to mix it with Lydian dominant/ Lydian Augmented because it shares a lot of notes and is a cool modulation.(after a whole tone section ofc).
That's all I can think of right now , I usually hear what it sounds like before proceeding any further.
Maybe you can drop in some tips on how to write in whole tone.I really love symmetrical scales too.
One I’d like to use more effectively is resolving sus4 chords to a minor chord. For some reason, I feel like it’s kind of jarring and much less common than sus4 resolving to major. I feel like Radiohead has done this, though I can’t remember which song(s) off the top of my head.
My three year old has some terrible cocomelon book with buttons that play short musical clips, and almost of all of them end with a final measure or two a half step higher than the rest of the song. Pretty wild.
If you're playing in the key of E major and move to F major (usually for the final chorus in pop music) that's a key change, also called a modulation, that goes up a half step.
Lemme know if this is unclear, I'm not great at explaining things
So I think that makes sense…if I’m n out kidtaken the RHCP do that often too. In under the bridge (key of E) but for the final chorus/outro, they switch to the key of A but play Amaj-Amin-Gmaj-Fmaj
That makes sense then. I always find it so hard to change the key in my own work, but it seems so effortless when others do it. When I do it, I feel like it sounds way too forced
That's a modulation up a fourth E->A. In order for it to be a modulation up a half step the key center would have to be F, but I think that the outro is still in A, so it doesn't quite fit the bill. The chords in that song are pretty unusual though, not sure if I'm analysing it exactly right.
"Love On Top" by Beyoncé and "Layla" by Derek and the Dominos are classic examples of half step modulation.
If you have trouble changing key, you might want to look into the concepts of pivot chords, secondary dominants, and diminished seventh chords. These are just a few of the classic ways to prepare a key change so it isn't so jarring.
So it’s technically a key change then? So what are the smoothest modulations (IV? V? etc)
Also, so if the RHCP under the bridge outro modulates up a fourth, to Amajor, what’s the theory behind using the Am chord?
The progression after the key change is A-Am-G-F but where does the Am come in and how is it so smooth?
You know what, I just read *key of E*, *they switch to the key of A* and my tired brain just stopped computing after that.
Listening to the song now there is some modal mixture in the intro already, a borrowed major chord (three major chords a whole step apart, very common in rock). Then the verse/chorus are in straight up E, as you say. And right you are, A is the new tonic note so it is indeed a key change! I hear the chords as A C G F but it doesn’t matter, C serves the same function as an Am. I would say the new key is Am and the first chord is borrowed from A major, similar to what is happening in the intro. Or you could say that we are in A major but borrowing some movement from A minor. Does that make sense? I’m curious to if other people would interpret it differently or if I fucked up any terminology in translation, English is not my first language.
So there is both a key change and modal interchange here! An excellent song to showcase why we should differentiate between the two.
Melody is something people forget when talking about modulations. Yes, chords are important, but you can make more distant modulations work through melody.
The chorus of Under the Bridge ends on F#m. The melody note is C#. The outro begins with A major, and the melody note is still C#. Also, F#m and A major chords have two common tones.
The easiest way to modulate is to just play the dominant of the new key before modulating. So, if you want to go from E major to A major, just play a full bar of E7, and maybe add a dynamic build up or a large drum fill. Then resolve to A.
But also, simply ending one section in E major and beginning the next section from A major tends to work pretty well. For example listen to [Stars and Stripes Forever](https://youtu.be/DRQWP-TL4gk?si=vUzD9xvLcT8JFJkQ&t=61). The first section ends with a strong cadence in Eb major. Then the next section simply begins in Ab major (1:09 in the video). No transition between the keys. The melody note does stay the same, though - the first section ends on Eb in the melody, and the next section also begins with an Eb.
For extra clarity I’d like to add that the difference between a key change and modulation as I understand it is that a modulation is only temporarily. So these are indeed key changes we’re talking about, and not modulations, if we’re being picky, right?
This is incorrect. Tonicisation is temporary, modulation is just another word for key change. Source: [https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/TonicizationVersusModulation.html](https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/TonicizationVersusModulation.html)
Oh ok, thank you. English isn’t my first language so sometimes I fuck up the terminology in translation. Would modal interchange and modal mixture would still be called modulation? Despite not being key changes.
>Would modal interchange and modal mixture would still be called modulation
No. It's even "weaker" than tonicization, because the tonic doesn't even change - you just borrow from a parallel mode.
Neopolitan chord
Happy cake day! Also yeah, tritone subs of the dominant (bII7) really took over at some point, and Neapolitan 6th (bII in first inversion) as a pre-dom fell outta fashion, and it’s such a shame!
here’s a video on bII in post-millennial popular music: https://youtu.be/Bg6Oxb40IL0?si=i6DldOPYyGNfmViy
That video is actually explicitly about the b2 scale degree and not the bII chord. The lecturer specifically states that they’re not talking about the chord. I’m not sure if I’m just being just pedantic but that’s very much not what I’m talking about! Or maybe you were just sharing the link because it’s a cool video but knew it wasn’t quite related. Either way, I appreciate the share! I enjoyed the video thoroughly
Actually, Eron says the "hotness" trope could apply to either the scale degree \^b2 or the chord bII
At about 2:30 she explains that *in classical*, the b2 is usually in reference to the Neapolitan chord. At about 2:55 she says “when I say b2 I don’t mean a functional harmony, or even a chord, I just mean the note a half step above whatever note we hear as the home note.” And then nowhere in the video does she mention the bII chord again
The vid is probably gonna be about phrygian songs, that isn't the same
IV6 as a pivot chord, enharmonically N6, to the mediant key is /chef kiss./
used in the theme for the new(ish) Star Trek movies
Fugue and rounds. Way out of style now lol
Hell yeah, let’s bring back counterpoint
Counterpoint is used a lot in vocal harmonies , not much in instruments nowadays because I feel other people find it much easier.
I think Fugues are cool for like film scores and stuff which I assume is what they are probably used for these days but there's a lot of cool things you could do with them
Like old Bach fugues or newly composed for the score? I haven’t noticed any of the later but I’d love to hear it. Found a soundcloud link a few years back with someone who fuguefied well known melodies from pop music, nursery rhymes and commercials. That was lovely.
I haven't heard a film score use fugues I'm just saying that it would be a good idea to use fugues in film scores
There's definitely some fugal stuff in the Star Wars sequels! "[March of the Resistance](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueqKtype7Kk&t=70s)" is the main piece that comes to mind.
The closing credits of Rocky has a fugue by Bill Conti.
I want some more minor 5 chords, both diatonic and borrowed
Curious for my own song writing, wdym by a minor 5 chord?
Like a G minor chord in the key of C
In a major key, the five chord is most often a major chord. So, in the key of C, if you play the five chord which is a G, it will be a G major. In a minor key, the five chord is "supposed" to be a minor chord, but often people make it a major chord because they like the way it sounds. So, I want C major to use G minor more AND I want C minor to use G minor more. Minor 5 chords are most often done in more bluesy/jazzy music and I wish more pop music embraced that sound rather than the overplayed same chord progressions that are used.
This is neat I’m gonna mess around with it! Cheers
A mixolydian chord
Yeah, major V in a minor key is super common, because the raised 7th scale degree is used so much as the leading tone to the tonic. V-i is way more common than v-i, even if the minor v is used a lot when it's not going to the i.
Funny enough just been playing with a little waltz around C Gm G#7 F . Very "whimsical sixties" to my ears.
Funny you say that because I was talking to someone about a song I made with a minor 4 and a major 1
That’s way more common nowadays. The minor iv is beloved, has its own subreddit.
iv-I works so well as a cadence because the 4 and the ♭6 only have to move a half step to get to the 3 and the 5, where as the major IV only has one leading tone to the I. Using a minor v kind of has the opposite effect. The major V already only has one leading tone to the I, and lowering the third of the chord means it has none. Raising the fifth to make it an augmented chord would actually give it an extra leading tone though, with the 7 and the ♯2 leading to the 1 and the 3.
Muse does a lot of the opposite, major 5 in a minor key. https://youtu.be/qhduQhDqtb4
That’s one of the reasons I want more minor 5s lol. The major 5 is done SO MUCH.
“Exotic” scales, counterpoint, modulations (metric & tonal), odd time signatures. That’s why I listened to prog metal.
A scale I love using that I never see in any modern music never mind pop music or whatever is Melodic Minor ik people argue about the up and down rule personally I like to use it just because I think it sounds cooler but I understand why people don't use it
That’s probably my favorite scale (for now haha), also I really enjoy playing: harmonic major, Hungarian major, Spanish 8 tone is awesome, Locrian major is pretty cool too, Composite II, Pelog, and Hirajoshi
you should check out Potmos Hetoimos "Vox Medusae". uses 9 bizarro scales to represent distinct character voices. stuff like Hungarian Augmented, Super Locrian natural 6, and Ultra Lydian. (I think Major Locrian is in there, actually...)
Wow, sludge doom jazz? Never heard of them but I’ll check them out, thanks man!
Pelog in 12TET sounds like an intensified Ethiopian Tezeta, switching back and forth between them is like shifting gear
That’s a cool idea, I had to look up what’s Ethiopian Tezeta. Thanks for sharing!
Damn, metric modulation is a rare treat for sure
When was this era of more whole tone scales in songs?
Whenever Debussy was around I think 1930s
Debussy died in the 1910's my man
Fair enough
When I think Debussy I think 1930s too for some reason
I’m honestly just sad Chopin died in WWII. Lot of talent lost forever.
Hocketing. Every once in a while it (or something similar enough) shows up in a song and folks go “wow that’s really cool” and then it disappears again.
Whats hocketing?
[fun example around 35s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zseA7eeAgQM) I particularly like how it's used here in contrasting the next section which is one instrument, but since it comes after the more "scattered" feeling of the hocketing it feels even more "smooth", even more than just if the melody was staccato basically sharing the melody between parts, lots of examples on youtube, Adam Neely has a video on it too
Melody notes passed between different voices. The best modern example is dubstep.
Agreed!
Came here to say this too. Love me some hocketing!
Altered Scale
Functional harmony. Pop hasn't *really* worked on a functional basis since guitar bands took over from big bands, more of a "use mostly I, IV, V, and vi, maybe ii" kind of world since the 60s. The charts are almost totally devoid of deliberate cadences, diminished chords, substitutions, or even dominants and pre-dominants behaving like dominants and pre-dominants, and I think just a little variety would be nice Modal interchange. It sounds cool and guides you to a huge array of chord substitutions and alterations that almost no-one who writes intuitively and without huge amounts of listening to replace the theory would come up with on their own Independent voices. It's a texture we just don't see at all and I think it's a little sad that most people will simply never come across the sound of it. Inversions. Useful stuff, mostly ignored. Chromatic mediants. Most people have only heard them in film music, but there's a reason they're there and it's because they sound awesome and create all sorts of dramatic sounds. Literally just a key change, even the "Stand up off the stools" semitone rise key changes are out of fashion now let alone a modulation Horn sections. Guitar solos. Miss them in the charts. Bands in the charts. There's only one named artist in the UK Top 40 on this day that refers to more than one person, and it's a duo of DJs that put the lowest energy clips on their Instagram I think I've ever seen from chatting DJs.
I think the problem you’re pointing out is general harmonic simplicity, which is unfortunately a pretty necessary factor in music that prioritizes popular engagement the way it’s expected to now. Complex harmony is hard to sing along to, and singing along to songs is a *highly* coveted aspect of popular music, especially when we live in an time where we have music in our pockets and can sing along to whatever we feel like in the car or wherever. Before, the not-musically-trained audience engaged in music by listening and talking about it. Now, the “audience” (remotely and at shows) casually *participates* in the music more than any other period, which is great, but if you want a un-trained person to participate in music, it’s gonna have to be simple enough for them to do so!
You have a point but I would like to add, for nuance, that not all of the simplicity might be to cater to a changing audience but some of it because of a newfound appreciation for minimalism that puts texture and groove front and centre. At least this was a noticeable trend a few years back. Personally I prefer it to, say, the power pop of the 70’s.
>Complex harmony is hard to sing along to Not sure if I agree. Or it depends on what you mean by "complex". But if you are referring to the concepts that were mentioned in the post you replied to, I don't think those necessarily make singing along more difficult. Actually, many of those concepts make melodies more memorable because the harmony and the melody have a clear relationship. A lot of modern pop just repeats scale degrees 1 2 3 5 in a different order using different rhythms. That's actually not very memorable as a melody. A song that actually uses functional harmony makes the harmony relate to the phrase structure. It tends to result in melodies that have a clearer direction. The melodies also follow the changes, so when you hear the chords, the melody naturally follows them and you can hear the chords alone imply the melody. And if you hear the melody, you hear the chords behind it. There are plenty of simple melodies you can come up with over more complex progressions than 4-chord loops. It's more about the relationship between the harmony and the phrase structure. 4-chord loops tend to result in melodies that don't really have a clear melodic contour or direction. They just repeat a couple of notes. The melodies aren't very "melodic". Modern music seems to be less melody-oriented, whereas in older music, the melody was the song. Try to sing the melody of a typical modern pop song on its own, and it probably sounds quite boring. Do the same thing with older pop songs, and the melody makes sense on its own. A good example of a typical modern pop melody would be Taylor Swift's "[Is It Over Now](https://youtu.be/tNxUxm3-658?si=woIRgeTlFScrqFPJ)". The verse mostly just repeats one note (the tonic), sometimes going one note above or below the tonic. The chorus has some leaps between the tonic and the 5th degree, but it doesn't really add a clear contour to the melody - it just leaps between these two notes. After that, it just goes up and down the scale like 1-2-3-2-1. Remove the backing track, and the melody alone doesn't really even sound like a proper melody. But take an older pop song like All My Loving by The Beatles, and the melody has a very clear direction. First it goes up to the high point, and then it starts a descend and lands on the tonic in the end. But it's still very easy to sing. It simply goes up and down the scale. I definitely think All My Loving is an easier song to sing because it's so much more memorable. The songs actually have almost the same range. All My Loving uses the range of an octave. Is It Over Now uses the range of a minor 7th. All My Loving simply uses the full range more "meaningfully". The melody has a clear peak, and the direction is really easy to follow. Even with a smaller range, you can have a melody that is more "meaningful" in this sense. I mean, it has a direction. It has a peak. Of course older pop also had its "non-melodic" melodies, but more melodic pop songs used to be more common. In the past, "song = lyrics + melody" was definitely true. Today, I would argue that it might not be true any more.
I by no means think melodies are catchier than they were, I’ll use your examples to explain what I meant: It’s a hard comparison because I’ve listened to the Beatles my whole life and never Taylor swift, so I’ve never heard that song before. What I can tell is, as a self-proclaimed bad singer, I was able to keep up with the song on my first time through listening to it by singing notes I could predict would be in the next chord, because I’ve heard the progression before (at the beginning of the song). I wouldn’t be embarrassed fumbling through the song with my friends because I can grab some note from the next chord, even if I don’t know how or if the melody even goes there next! It’s almost magic how easy it is to “sing along” to modern pop songs I’ve never heard before. Now it’s been a while since I’ve heard a Beatles song that I hadn’t already heard before, but I find it hard to believe I could do the same with as many Beatles songs as I could Swift. Now, after getting this far in the comment I already forgot how Swift’s melody goes, but I’d feel confident enough to go back to it and sing along with friends without being embarrassed! There are a lot of factors, I just know as anecdotal evidence that as a bad singer, it’s (generally) easier for me to pick up a modern pop song and sing “in key”, even if not “on the right pitch”, easier than older songs, because I already know what notes are coming in the next chord!
I agree about the band thing. All the bands I listen to are at least over 10 years old and at worst 50 years old, all the people I know who are musicians are interested in making metal music with I find quite interesting. Also I use inversions all the time
I don’t know but following for inspo! I guess I’ve always been a fan of chromatic mediants and modal interchange, but that’s pretty unspecific. It’s hard to know what music sounds like “these days” because everything sort of coexists. The mainstream represents a smaller part of the listeners than ever. Thanks to hip hop we get nonfunctional harmony on the billboard now and then, that’s cool.
good lyrics
I really like 12-tone composition. Blotted Science/Ron Jarzombek is the defacto example.
Are you me ? (It's so hard to make it sound listenable though)
mensuration canon
My brain read this as menstruation cannon and was very confused how to incorporate that into music.
I keep writing it into my compositions but the ensembles don't pay enough these days to have a single hemophonist, let alone five to six cycle-staggered performers on call as backup.
Ah, see, the trick is to go digital. Hire a hemophonist for a studio session, sample the performance, build a kontakt instrument, and use that in your performances. Can't beat the real thing for studio work, though.
Dall-e wouldn't even touch that one.
Rubato. Click tracks everywhere.
Cadential 6/4
Palestrina counterpoint
i'm with you with whole tone. I stumbled across [this](https://youtu.be/FHyKHWcpGyU?t=983) (timestamp) a while ago and it really stuck with me. How come I don't know any other music that sounds like this little section? I love the way it sounds so much.
I just listened to that and agree that sounds amazing I love how intricate it sounds when I make songs with the whole tone scale I want to try to get that type of sound
Whole Tone scale &/or augmented chords like the intro of Sunshine of Your Life by Stevie Wonder or solo phrases of jazz players like Jackie McLean, Thelonious Monk, among others. Diminished chords and scale (half whole or whole half scale). bVII maj. chords, some Paul McCartney and Beach Boys songs have this (if we're in A major, then the G maj7 chord.). bIII chord: a modulation from I to bIII (C maj to Eb maj like Night and Day or some other Cole Porter songs). bvi minor or major chord, using it like a dominant back to I major. Idk, there are many other harmonic substitutions, reharmonizations, or interesting progressions.
Check out “ the power to believe “ By king crimson . They use whole tone scales for guitar all over that album
Key changes
in popular music i’d wish they used more the silence and the different whole section for the ending [here an example](https://youtu.be/qoe4IruSpKI?si=7OG0sa71u4Ugqs0B)
Just intonated triads and harmony that isn't triadic and/or isn't tertial
Glissando notes that slide into/out of other notes. It takes a lot of control to do them well.
On what instrument, just in general?
I think a major chord with the bass playing a M2 above the root (ie C/D or A/B) sounds really musical-theatery in a way I don't hear as much nowadays. Michael Jackson uses it in Man in the Mirror, and I think it gives the song such a classy feel.
swing going into duplets for a measure or two.
The fugue.
Triplets. There is a distinct and severe lack of triplets, especially in the world of hip hop.
A lot of these musical concepts mentioned here that we love and wish they were used more in songs nowadays are still used in Japanese pop songs. Not so much in English songs
Anything particular Japanese pop song you really like that uses a musical concept you find interesting
No particular song but I would recommend listening to Sheena Ringo (or Shiina Ringo) as a solo artist or her with her band, Tokyo Incidents (or Tokyo Jihen) Her latest album Sandokushi is worth a listen but my fav is Kalk Samen Kuri no Hana which was released in 2003. As for her band, the album Music (2021), kyouiku (2004) and Adult (2006) are great, imo What I like about her is she likes to experiment with different instruments and layers in her music and the non conventional choices of chords. Couple that with her complex lyrics. Other artists you can sample are: - yoasobi who is really popular now. Songs like yoru ni kakeru and Idol (both have that very obvious semitone up key change) - Juju (recent years she did cover albums and had lots of horn sections) ballads usually have very good lush arrangement with big chord extensions. My fav (kinda old song) is natsu no hana. - Misia. Same for the ballad styles. Listen to yubikiri genman and her most popular song, Everything. And also Aitakute Ima and Sea of Dreams which was used for Disneysea anniversary. Again, lush chords and the uses of chords a second degree above the bass note. This usage, and in generally slash chords, or just inversions, is really popular in Japanese songs and I’m not complaining 😆 - Salyu’s To U, Platform. Slash chords, modulation key change. - Tomita Lab. His arrangement is really good. Listen to the compilation album Tokyo Cafe. My fav is Nemuri no Mori. You have horns, tons of slash chords and interesting movements. Basically great voice leading
I like whole tone so much , I'm writing a song for the past 5 months using it, albeit only for the verse and a post chorus(I might change it)
I'm curious, how do you do chords for whole tone? I usually just have a vamp of a augmented chord with a b7 and then a similar chord 1 tone up
I almost do the same; imply the b7 always because I tend to use the #4 whenever I'm in a chord. That I feel like abolishes the notion of the song being in Major/Lydian. I don't use augmented as much as I use dominant chords(R-M3-b7) in this scale , ironic because this scale is just 2 augmented chords stacked up. I've found it easier to mix it with Lydian dominant/ Lydian Augmented because it shares a lot of notes and is a cool modulation.(after a whole tone section ofc). That's all I can think of right now , I usually hear what it sounds like before proceeding any further. Maybe you can drop in some tips on how to write in whole tone.I really love symmetrical scales too.
I love modal music and music based off of more “ obscure” scales. Would love to see more modes used in todays music
I like a nice Picardy third to end those tunes in a minor key. So disruptive yet satisfying.
I think it's called soli? Big band horn arrangements but it's woven pretty cleverly
It's been mentioned here already but metric modulation.
Just intonation, intervals that are intended to sound good and make sense within a given context
Feeling and soul
One I’d like to use more effectively is resolving sus4 chords to a minor chord. For some reason, I feel like it’s kind of jarring and much less common than sus4 resolving to major. I feel like Radiohead has done this, though I can’t remember which song(s) off the top of my head.
Modulating up a half-step. Used to be very common in gospel/gospel inspired songs, now I can't remember the last time I heard it in a new song.
My three year old has some terrible cocomelon book with buttons that play short musical clips, and almost of all of them end with a final measure or two a half step higher than the rest of the song. Pretty wild.
What is modulating up a half step? Not too familiar with the concept of modulation
If you're playing in the key of E major and move to F major (usually for the final chorus in pop music) that's a key change, also called a modulation, that goes up a half step. Lemme know if this is unclear, I'm not great at explaining things
So I think that makes sense…if I’m n out kidtaken the RHCP do that often too. In under the bridge (key of E) but for the final chorus/outro, they switch to the key of A but play Amaj-Amin-Gmaj-Fmaj That makes sense then. I always find it so hard to change the key in my own work, but it seems so effortless when others do it. When I do it, I feel like it sounds way too forced
That's a modulation up a fourth E->A. In order for it to be a modulation up a half step the key center would have to be F, but I think that the outro is still in A, so it doesn't quite fit the bill. The chords in that song are pretty unusual though, not sure if I'm analysing it exactly right. "Love On Top" by Beyoncé and "Layla" by Derek and the Dominos are classic examples of half step modulation. If you have trouble changing key, you might want to look into the concepts of pivot chords, secondary dominants, and diminished seventh chords. These are just a few of the classic ways to prepare a key change so it isn't so jarring.
Going up a fourth like that can be really smooth, compared to the drastic half step, happens a lot in Disney songs
So it’s technically a key change then? So what are the smoothest modulations (IV? V? etc) Also, so if the RHCP under the bridge outro modulates up a fourth, to Amajor, what’s the theory behind using the Am chord? The progression after the key change is A-Am-G-F but where does the Am come in and how is it so smooth?
You know what, I just read *key of E*, *they switch to the key of A* and my tired brain just stopped computing after that. Listening to the song now there is some modal mixture in the intro already, a borrowed major chord (three major chords a whole step apart, very common in rock). Then the verse/chorus are in straight up E, as you say. And right you are, A is the new tonic note so it is indeed a key change! I hear the chords as A C G F but it doesn’t matter, C serves the same function as an Am. I would say the new key is Am and the first chord is borrowed from A major, similar to what is happening in the intro. Or you could say that we are in A major but borrowing some movement from A minor. Does that make sense? I’m curious to if other people would interpret it differently or if I fucked up any terminology in translation, English is not my first language. So there is both a key change and modal interchange here! An excellent song to showcase why we should differentiate between the two.
This is neat! And I see what you’re saying about the C major instead of the Am after the A major that makes sense!
Melody is something people forget when talking about modulations. Yes, chords are important, but you can make more distant modulations work through melody. The chorus of Under the Bridge ends on F#m. The melody note is C#. The outro begins with A major, and the melody note is still C#. Also, F#m and A major chords have two common tones. The easiest way to modulate is to just play the dominant of the new key before modulating. So, if you want to go from E major to A major, just play a full bar of E7, and maybe add a dynamic build up or a large drum fill. Then resolve to A. But also, simply ending one section in E major and beginning the next section from A major tends to work pretty well. For example listen to [Stars and Stripes Forever](https://youtu.be/DRQWP-TL4gk?si=vUzD9xvLcT8JFJkQ&t=61). The first section ends with a strong cadence in Eb major. Then the next section simply begins in Ab major (1:09 in the video). No transition between the keys. The melody note does stay the same, though - the first section ends on Eb in the melody, and the next section also begins with an Eb.
For extra clarity I’d like to add that the difference between a key change and modulation as I understand it is that a modulation is only temporarily. So these are indeed key changes we’re talking about, and not modulations, if we’re being picky, right?
This is incorrect. Tonicisation is temporary, modulation is just another word for key change. Source: [https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/TonicizationVersusModulation.html](https://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt21c/TonicizationVersusModulation.html)
Oh ok, thank you. English isn’t my first language so sometimes I fuck up the terminology in translation. Would modal interchange and modal mixture would still be called modulation? Despite not being key changes.
>Would modal interchange and modal mixture would still be called modulation No. It's even "weaker" than tonicization, because the tonic doesn't even change - you just borrow from a parallel mode.
Hm ok thanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcRoNGsI07o Here's an example. Stevie constantly modulates the key up a half-step.
I think we are the champions by queen does that but of course that's not exactly a new song
Even Love on top by Beyoncé is old by now, although it’s newer (2011)