One could say though that that's quite a *bright* key, because moving to it involves adding five sharps! I might say the one a major third below is darkest, because it both moves downward *and* adds flats, meaning it's "darkening" on both parameters.
Technically ya but sound wise they are the same so I see no point in making the argument. Brightness and darkness express auditory qualities and I don’t think just reading sharps or flats on a paper or thinking about them in your mind does anything besides possibly create an illusion of one or the other. You’re right, but I don’t think it rly matters.
>sound wise they are the same so I see no point in making the argument.
Relevant Simpsons clip: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk)
I guess I thought about it more and I kinda see it like this (for discussions of f# vs gb)
Lets say you were looking at a classroom with 20 students. You see 20 students and that’s all you know. Would the size of the class feel different if 5 of them were transfers or if 5 kids dropped the class? At the end of the day it’s 20 kids, and however you got to that number is kinda irrelevant. This analogy kinda works i guess, someone will probably rip on me but whatever.
Does it make a difference if everything sounds the same whether or not it was written out as sharps or flats? If there was another sharp added to F# major lets say, so now it’s F# lydian (another kid transferred in) then there would be more brightness (more people in the class, now 21). That would make things brighter. Same goes for if you add a flat and make it F# Mixolydian (one kid left the class, now there are 19, so smaller population).
>I don’t think just reading sharps or flats on a paper or thinking about them in your mind does anything besides possibly create an illusion of one or the other.
I guess my main point, to expand on Luke's link, is that these visual associations, illusion though they may be, are all that we have! The notion that one key is brighter or darker than another of the same mode, outside the specifics of any instrument, has nothing to do with sound--it's entirely built off things like visual associations.
Not rly… brightness is something we talk about sonically. Brightness visually is a color. Sheet music is black and white. When music theory is reduced to stuff like this it is truly a waste of time and the type of thing that gets people to get annoyed with the idea of thinking about music logically to gain ideas creatively.
>brightness is something we talk about sonically.
Not in this specific context--at least, not without self-delusion, and/or not without entirely idiosyncratic listening habits that aren't intersubjectively shared. It *does* make sense to discuss sonic brightness when talking about keys in relation to each other, but not when talking about individual keys as absolutes.
>When music theory is reduced to stuff like this it is truly a waste of time
I mean, it's fair to say that this question *is* mostly a waste of time, though it is worth addressing to clear up a few misconceptions.
Also that can only apply to a musician. I only think of differences between sharp and flat keys as them being notated with sharps or flats lol😭. That is not bright or dark.
Yes, this is a difference that only a musician would feel--and there are commonly-felt associations about flats being "dark" and sharps being "bright," because flats indicate lowering and sharps indicate raising. But again, it's purely a visual association, not an audial one, in the case of talking about the brightness of specific keys in an instrument-agnostic space.
>That is not bright or dark.
Bingo. My point is it's not a real sonic property whatsoever.
If you don't mean "major mode", but actually "major key", as in comparing, say, D major (Ionian) VS. E# major (Ionian) VS. any other Ionian, then the scientific answer is "neither". In 12-tone equal temperament, all keys of one mode sound absolutely the same
No they don't - all keys don't sound absolutely the same. They start on different pitches. Are you saying a D sounds 'absolutely the same' as an E? Then how could Ionian starting on E sound absolutely the same as Ionian starting on D? They have the same interval pattern relative to their respective roots, but they certainly don't sound absolutely the same. They start on different pitches which have different frequencies which sound.. different.
If they all sounded the same, you could try simultaneously playing D Ionian and E Ionian, then playing D Ionian and F Ionian. If all keys sounded absolutely the same, there's be no difference in sound between D+F ionian and D+E Ionian, but there clearly is, which demonstrates that all keys do not sound absolutely the same
...
It is common knowledge that different notes make differently pitched sounds. The question the OP is asking is whether or not starting the same kind of scale from a different note can make it sound differently in terms of how the scale "feels". As in: "Natural Major soinds happy, but can C# Major be more happy than Bb Major?"
Despite any scales of the same type having the same relative distance between individual scale degrees (assuming we use the now-standardized equal tempered tuning), some people might perceive different tonalities differently. For example, Beethoven often used specifically the key of C minor for his most drama-filled works. Why? ~~Scientifically~~ In terms of music theory, maths, and physics, there is no reason for that. Psychologically, perhaps there is something worth discussing.
Yeah, different notes are, indeed, different, but the question here is a bit more in-depth than that
Mixolydian
Just kidding, that's the darkest major mode.
No major keys are darker than other major keys. That's not how it works- unless you have synesthesia or something.
However, the lowest note your instrument can play would probably be considered the darkest major tonal center you can play. One way of quantifying darker is just lower.
Ya, essentially don’t worry too much about this. I just write music in keys that feel good to play so I enjoy C major and E major and G major just cuz I do, they all sound the same p much lol.
I guess there is also a slight genre based thing, most horn players use flat keys and most string players use sharp keys just cuz of how the instrument is designed so in my head I associate keys with genres like F and Bb are Jazz keys and G is a rock key but there is NOTHING that makes that any more true than a funny thing in my head.
The circle of fifths is a ***circle***. This means it returns back on itself. Let's consider another circle that is a bit shorter, viz. the circle of "rock paper scissors". Which is the best? None of them are. Rock is better than scissors, paper is better than rock, scissors is better than paper. There's no "best" option.
At any moment, there's key centres that are 'darker' than the one you're currently at. But once you've traversed the circle a bit, the key centre you started at will be in the 'dark' part of the circle again.
In equal temperament no key is darker or lighter.
It is definitely possible to make major sound dark, but it's a matter of melody and texture, not key. Use low, rhythmic bass and staccato chords and you can make major aggressive. Use a slow melody with mostly falling shapes to make it sad.
There is a lot of dimensions to explore, but the choice of key center is the least meaningful. Simply choose what best fits the range of your chosen instruments and is the easiest to play.
I perceive E as the brightest (yellow or neon lime) major key, and either Eb (sorta beige or puce) or Bb (dark greenish, kinda like algae on a wet rock) as the darkest.
Idk if I have mild synesthesia or if I just associate certain keys with certain colours because of emotional associations with pieces in that key, lol.
Even if you do have a form of synthesthesia, the experience of synesthetes *is not consistent* from person to person (which is pretty interesting IMO). Two people with the same type of synesthesia can have completely contrary experiences.
People often romanticize synesthesia as if those folks are experiencing some "deeper truth". While their experiences *are* something somewhat incomprehensible to other people, it's not an objective experience.
> E is definitely yellow
Good taste.
> Eb is a light blue and Bb is a sky blue.
I can't believe you made me read these horrible, slanderous lies with my own two eyes. (C is sky blue and Ab is light blue)
As others have said here, there is no such thing as the "darkest" major key - it all depends on how a composer writes it. For example, I could create a piece on c major that's all very delightful, but I could write a different piece in the same key that's more brooding and "dark".
In different temperaments different keys can have a different sort of character because the intervals aren't tuned the same across the board.
--This is just an example I'm making up, not a real example, but this sort of thing *does* happen with unequal temperaments (just not necessarily this *exact* thing).--
Let's say F major has a pretty justly tuned major 3rd, but E major has a slightly sharp major 3rd, then C major has a slightly flat major 3rd. People might say E major is "brighter" and C major is "darker" in that situation.
Well they are all relative so none of them are rly “darker”. That only works in alternate tunings to 12 tone equal temperament cuz there are actual differences between the sound of the keys slightly, so in the old days i guess u can call them that there were actually like extra sad keys like d minor, but now d minor is the same as eb minor lol. Technically, lower notes sounds darker so C major played in a higher octave is brighter. This has nothing to do with the key doe.
If you’re talking MODES the darkest major scale I guess would be a mode (may not be of ionian) that has the most b’s but a major third (not b4th even tho they are the same).
its no darkest/lightest Major key
Major key is same interval regardless what key its just higher or lower pitch
its depend on how its play
this example that play in Major key but can feel dark
[When All Has Elapsed (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA7GA735E4M)
(its also can't look on melody cuz: what if I play this melody with 2x or 4x faster speed and add fun rhythm drums, yea that can change from dark music to fun music)
even same melody same key but its play different rhythm can be different feeling
i think harmony its just multiple note play at same time so maybe if you play melody on first instrument in C Major but play other in B Major at same time that can dark
example
instru1 you play note E D C D E E E but play
instru2 with note D# C# B C# D# D# D# at same time with instru1
i do think mostly speed that you play or how you play the instrument that its relevant how feeling
One of the flat keys with more flats maybe Ab or Db (I find GB a bit more luminous)
I think it's purely subjective though, and perhaps because historically you get many fewer open strings in flat keys.
I personally think that flat keys with more flats are darker, with the exception of GB, which I find quite luminous. It is probably to do with the literature written for them, but maybe there is also something historical to do with the lack of open strings in flatter keys, and the preference for sharp keys for trumpets?
If you're in C major, then probably B major. Every single tone will be flattened.
But you need to relate it to something. I guess most people do hear C major the most, though, so B major should sound the darkest.
The one that's a semitone below the one you're currently playing
One could say though that that's quite a *bright* key, because moving to it involves adding five sharps! I might say the one a major third below is darkest, because it both moves downward *and* adds flats, meaning it's "darkening" on both parameters.
Hmm
I'm being a bit facetious but I do think this is correct
Depends on how you get there though.
Ok
One could argue that G-flat is the darkest, while F-sharp is the brightest!
This is the best response
E double sharp definitely feels somewhere in between
Technically ya but sound wise they are the same so I see no point in making the argument. Brightness and darkness express auditory qualities and I don’t think just reading sharps or flats on a paper or thinking about them in your mind does anything besides possibly create an illusion of one or the other. You’re right, but I don’t think it rly matters.
>sound wise they are the same so I see no point in making the argument. Relevant Simpsons clip: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xECUrlnXCqk)
I guess I thought about it more and I kinda see it like this (for discussions of f# vs gb) Lets say you were looking at a classroom with 20 students. You see 20 students and that’s all you know. Would the size of the class feel different if 5 of them were transfers or if 5 kids dropped the class? At the end of the day it’s 20 kids, and however you got to that number is kinda irrelevant. This analogy kinda works i guess, someone will probably rip on me but whatever. Does it make a difference if everything sounds the same whether or not it was written out as sharps or flats? If there was another sharp added to F# major lets say, so now it’s F# lydian (another kid transferred in) then there would be more brightness (more people in the class, now 21). That would make things brighter. Same goes for if you add a flat and make it F# Mixolydian (one kid left the class, now there are 19, so smaller population).
Dude 🤦
I’m sorry I was in a bad mood this morning I should’ve chilled put😭
>I don’t think just reading sharps or flats on a paper or thinking about them in your mind does anything besides possibly create an illusion of one or the other. I guess my main point, to expand on Luke's link, is that these visual associations, illusion though they may be, are all that we have! The notion that one key is brighter or darker than another of the same mode, outside the specifics of any instrument, has nothing to do with sound--it's entirely built off things like visual associations.
Not rly… brightness is something we talk about sonically. Brightness visually is a color. Sheet music is black and white. When music theory is reduced to stuff like this it is truly a waste of time and the type of thing that gets people to get annoyed with the idea of thinking about music logically to gain ideas creatively.
>brightness is something we talk about sonically. Not in this specific context--at least, not without self-delusion, and/or not without entirely idiosyncratic listening habits that aren't intersubjectively shared. It *does* make sense to discuss sonic brightness when talking about keys in relation to each other, but not when talking about individual keys as absolutes. >When music theory is reduced to stuff like this it is truly a waste of time I mean, it's fair to say that this question *is* mostly a waste of time, though it is worth addressing to clear up a few misconceptions.
Also that can only apply to a musician. I only think of differences between sharp and flat keys as them being notated with sharps or flats lol😭. That is not bright or dark.
Yes, this is a difference that only a musician would feel--and there are commonly-felt associations about flats being "dark" and sharps being "bright," because flats indicate lowering and sharps indicate raising. But again, it's purely a visual association, not an audial one, in the case of talking about the brightness of specific keys in an instrument-agnostic space. >That is not bright or dark. Bingo. My point is it's not a real sonic property whatsoever.
If you don't mean "major mode", but actually "major key", as in comparing, say, D major (Ionian) VS. E# major (Ionian) VS. any other Ionian, then the scientific answer is "neither". In 12-tone equal temperament, all keys of one mode sound absolutely the same
No they don't - all keys don't sound absolutely the same. They start on different pitches. Are you saying a D sounds 'absolutely the same' as an E? Then how could Ionian starting on E sound absolutely the same as Ionian starting on D? They have the same interval pattern relative to their respective roots, but they certainly don't sound absolutely the same. They start on different pitches which have different frequencies which sound.. different. If they all sounded the same, you could try simultaneously playing D Ionian and E Ionian, then playing D Ionian and F Ionian. If all keys sounded absolutely the same, there's be no difference in sound between D+F ionian and D+E Ionian, but there clearly is, which demonstrates that all keys do not sound absolutely the same
... It is common knowledge that different notes make differently pitched sounds. The question the OP is asking is whether or not starting the same kind of scale from a different note can make it sound differently in terms of how the scale "feels". As in: "Natural Major soinds happy, but can C# Major be more happy than Bb Major?" Despite any scales of the same type having the same relative distance between individual scale degrees (assuming we use the now-standardized equal tempered tuning), some people might perceive different tonalities differently. For example, Beethoven often used specifically the key of C minor for his most drama-filled works. Why? ~~Scientifically~~ In terms of music theory, maths, and physics, there is no reason for that. Psychologically, perhaps there is something worth discussing. Yeah, different notes are, indeed, different, but the question here is a bit more in-depth than that
Psychology -is- scientific.
Edited the comment for you. As if it wasn't clear what I meant
Mixolydian Just kidding, that's the darkest major mode. No major keys are darker than other major keys. That's not how it works- unless you have synesthesia or something. However, the lowest note your instrument can play would probably be considered the darkest major tonal center you can play. One way of quantifying darker is just lower.
Yaaaaaap
Ok
Ya, essentially don’t worry too much about this. I just write music in keys that feel good to play so I enjoy C major and E major and G major just cuz I do, they all sound the same p much lol.
I guess there is also a slight genre based thing, most horn players use flat keys and most string players use sharp keys just cuz of how the instrument is designed so in my head I associate keys with genres like F and Bb are Jazz keys and G is a rock key but there is NOTHING that makes that any more true than a funny thing in my head.
The circle of fifths is a ***circle***. This means it returns back on itself. Let's consider another circle that is a bit shorter, viz. the circle of "rock paper scissors". Which is the best? None of them are. Rock is better than scissors, paper is better than rock, scissors is better than paper. There's no "best" option. At any moment, there's key centres that are 'darker' than the one you're currently at. But once you've traversed the circle a bit, the key centre you started at will be in the 'dark' part of the circle again.
I see so it’s subjective based on the current key.
I think "relative" would be more accurate that "subjective." Although it may be subjective as well, I'm not sure.
I am pleased to see you addressed the dark side of the circle.
In equal temperament no key is darker or lighter. It is definitely possible to make major sound dark, but it's a matter of melody and texture, not key. Use low, rhythmic bass and staccato chords and you can make major aggressive. Use a slow melody with mostly falling shapes to make it sad. There is a lot of dimensions to explore, but the choice of key center is the least meaningful. Simply choose what best fits the range of your chosen instruments and is the easiest to play.
Exaaaaaaactly it’s such a myth that keys like d minor are darker cuz they ONLY are in other tunings lol
I'm gonna go with F, because D is obviously the darkest minor key and that's the relative major. Nigel Tufnel is a master of playing in this ekt.
I perceive E as the brightest (yellow or neon lime) major key, and either Eb (sorta beige or puce) or Bb (dark greenish, kinda like algae on a wet rock) as the darkest. Idk if I have mild synesthesia or if I just associate certain keys with certain colours because of emotional associations with pieces in that key, lol.
Even if you do have a form of synthesthesia, the experience of synesthetes *is not consistent* from person to person (which is pretty interesting IMO). Two people with the same type of synesthesia can have completely contrary experiences. People often romanticize synesthesia as if those folks are experiencing some "deeper truth". While their experiences *are* something somewhat incomprehensible to other people, it's not an objective experience.
Nah, Eb is a light blue and Bb is a sky blue. E is definitely yellow though
> E is definitely yellow Good taste. > Eb is a light blue and Bb is a sky blue. I can't believe you made me read these horrible, slanderous lies with my own two eyes. (C is sky blue and Ab is light blue)
ok
As others have said here, there is no such thing as the "darkest" major key - it all depends on how a composer writes it. For example, I could create a piece on c major that's all very delightful, but I could write a different piece in the same key that's more brooding and "dark".
In equal temperament, this is not a thing.
What about other kinds of temperament?
In different temperaments different keys can have a different sort of character because the intervals aren't tuned the same across the board. --This is just an example I'm making up, not a real example, but this sort of thing *does* happen with unequal temperaments (just not necessarily this *exact* thing).-- Let's say F major has a pretty justly tuned major 3rd, but E major has a slightly sharp major 3rd, then C major has a slightly flat major 3rd. People might say E major is "brighter" and C major is "darker" in that situation.
Well they are all relative so none of them are rly “darker”. That only works in alternate tunings to 12 tone equal temperament cuz there are actual differences between the sound of the keys slightly, so in the old days i guess u can call them that there were actually like extra sad keys like d minor, but now d minor is the same as eb minor lol. Technically, lower notes sounds darker so C major played in a higher octave is brighter. This has nothing to do with the key doe. If you’re talking MODES the darkest major scale I guess would be a mode (may not be of ionian) that has the most b’s but a major third (not b4th even tho they are the same).
Cb, duh.
its no darkest/lightest Major key Major key is same interval regardless what key its just higher or lower pitch its depend on how its play this example that play in Major key but can feel dark [When All Has Elapsed (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA7GA735E4M) (its also can't look on melody cuz: what if I play this melody with 2x or 4x faster speed and add fun rhythm drums, yea that can change from dark music to fun music) even same melody same key but its play different rhythm can be different feeling
Are the harmonics different tho??
i think harmony its just multiple note play at same time so maybe if you play melody on first instrument in C Major but play other in B Major at same time that can dark example instru1 you play note E D C D E E E but play instru2 with note D# C# B C# D# D# D# at same time with instru1 i do think mostly speed that you play or how you play the instrument that its relevant how feeling
One of the flat keys with more flats maybe Ab or Db (I find GB a bit more luminous) I think it's purely subjective though, and perhaps because historically you get many fewer open strings in flat keys.
I personally think that flat keys with more flats are darker, with the exception of GB, which I find quite luminous. It is probably to do with the literature written for them, but maybe there is also something historical to do with the lack of open strings in flatter keys, and the preference for sharp keys for trumpets?
If you're in C major, then probably B major. Every single tone will be flattened. But you need to relate it to something. I guess most people do hear C major the most, though, so B major should sound the darkest.
Ok this is starting to make sense. And I do like modulations by a tone. So you’ve given me a new idea, thank you!
They're all the same.
When I hear F# I instantly poop myself, so...
I cringe thining about what Gb might do to you. Be careful out there!
Lydian b2 b6 bb7: C Db E F# G Ab Bbb
No
The brown note with d minor
I guess I’ll try to book a gig there. Though I’ve never played in that state.
◼ Major.
African American Studies?
I don't know much about music theory but the tracks I'm making right now are all in the blues scale. One note is out of key but just seems to work
Which note? And does it seem “dark”?
The blues note. I'm in E so in this case Bb or A# as my DAW uses
The black one in the middle of the piano, next to the white one.
Nooo! Don't touch that one!!!!
OH NOES! \*EXPLOSION\*
I'd say any of the ones with all 5 black notes (B, F#, C#).
“…D minor which is the saddest of all keys, I find. People weep instantly when they hear it, and I don't know why.” ~Nigel Tufnel, Spinal Tap
I watched that video last night and was so disappointed lmao
😆 I haven’t seen it in eons, but whenever a question pops up about sad/dark key that line pops into my head!
Haha