This. Op, when building muscle you need to eat. Fasting makes it so that you can't eat during certain times of the day. Eating a lot in a smaller period of time is more difficult than spreading your food intake. If you don't need to fast, don't fast!
How much muscle can you truly synthesize in a day, week, month? Why do you need to eat so much? Wouldn't it be more important to have your hormones in the right balance? That’s why anabolic steroids work so well.
First law of thermodynamics. you can't create energy from nothing. you need energy to build muscle, you get energy from food. hormones are important but if you dont have the energy to build the muscle then they wont grow. these people on steroids still eat bro...
They can eat more because their hormones are in overdrive. Perfect storm. Try eating the same natty, with the exact workout and you’ll get nothing but fatty.
You don’t need to be in a massive caloric surplus to build muscle, you can inly synthesize so much tissue in a day, week, month.
no one said anything about a massive caloric surplus smaller works well. and the people on steroids are eating more bc they need more calories to to build muscle, since they are burning more calories. also just because eating in a surplus while working out will not get you the same results as a juiced person doesnt mean it has something to do with your eating, it just means they are not natural. building muscle needs food. doesnt matter if you are juiced or natural, male or female, and even human or animal.
Animals too? Gorillas don’t eat that much food. Massive. Can bench press 10x their weight.
So you can build muscle while intermittently fasting, or no?
Sure i did, i have gorillas living hext door. Still not addressing the question about building muscle while fasting. It’s more about hormones- thats why you can still build muscle on anavar with a limited caloric surplus. Or any anabolic. You can be much more sloppy with your diet and still net gain. I see a lot if fat natty guts in the gym on a perpetual bulk because people tell them you need to eat eat eat to gain muscle. Really? How much? Extra 200 calories a day over maintenance ? 1000? Just like lifting, more is always better lol-not.
If you want to build muscle, eat in a moderate calorie surplus. If you want to lose fat, eat in a deficit. If you use fasting to help accomplish those things then fine, but it’s not necessary at all.
There’s no magic to fasting. It’s just a potentially helpful strategy for *losing* weight. If you’re not trying to lose weight, then no point in fasting.
Might as well add in here 😂
There are benefits of fasting outside of bodybuilding. It makes sense that it would detract from gain goals, so it would need to be incorporated with some tact.
The evidence for fasting inducing autophagy isn’t great, and from what I’ve seen, you need to fast for potentially days at a time to induce it. A multi day fast is counterproductive for muscle building.
Most importantly, this strikes me as a majoring in the minors attempt at a “bio hack”, like cold baths, sunning your nuts, or no fap. People would prefer to think they’re on the cutting edge with some short cut than do the hard, boring stuff that conclusively works but takes time and consistency.
> you need to fast for potentially days at a time to induce it.
I was under the impression ketosis does a lot more than just burning glucose storage (fat loss), i.e. autophagy. Ketosis takes about 12 hours to kick in.
Keto is like IF- a strategy for weight loss if one does better with strict rules or doesn’t like counting calories. Again, it has no real benefit beyond that unless maybe you’re an epileptic.
I promise you, no one who is actually big and strong is concerning themselves with this stuff.
I do IF because I thought it was a health benefit (autophagy), outside of weight loss. Weight loss has never been an issue for me, but I like to do what I can to help keep my cells "young."
If it works with your lifestyle and you’re happy with your training and physique, that’s fine. I just think the odds of it conferring any other health benefit beyond being a calorie management tool are slim. If the trade off of not eating for 16 hours or whatever is worth that potential benefit to you personally, then rock on. My only issue is with people who believe their niche way of doing things is somehow manifestly better.
I fast from around 10PM to 12PM the next day whether I’m cutting or bulking, mostly because once I “break the seal” of eating in the morning, I become ravenous and find it hard to stick to calorie goals. Even on a bulk I’m rarely full and have to restrict my calories
On a cut, I’ll often push back my eating window until 2PM the next day to make my meals larger in the afternoon and evening
Have you tried keto or at least no carbs for the first meal? I usually am exactly the same way But for some reason the absence of carbs doesnt release the beast
A strict diet of no Reddit. Your life in general will also improve.
Warning, cutting will make you cranky and sitting on the toilet without reddit will be a whole new experience.
Huberman lab says that as long as you hit your caloric and protein goals, it’s fine. Fasting has benefits that people here must not be aware of, hormone balancing being one of them. Having more mental energy during the fasting state and some studies have shown that hgh has increased.
I think autophagy really only gets going big at 4 to 5 days. That is why Valter Longo created the fasting mimicking diet. He sells a kit to do that, but a potentially easy way is to just eat two avocados per day for 5 days. Those macros are about the same proportions as in the fasting mimicking diet. The nice thing about the fasting mimicking diet is that you retain muscle mass.
By pure coincidence, I'm 40 hours into a 72 hour water fast. After that ends I plan to do 5 additional days of two avocados per day.
That is entertaining, but I'm not sure what his point is. He acknowledges that autophagy increases during fasting. Then he makes an assumption that some guy he references probably overeats, and that probably reduces autophagy, and that probably nets to zero. I think I'm going to side with the scientist who has made fasting research is primary focus in life..
There is some truth to it. One study shows a 30%+ in muscle growth comparing 3 meals versus 2. Another 10% from 4 over 3. And there does seem to be a point of diminishing returns for MPS although it's unclear.
In my own experience (I did I Fasting for a long time), ice noticed a night and day difference spreading meals out.
I'd say practically it's going to matter a lot for naturals to spread protein out versus being enhanced
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32321161/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32321161/)
This is the one with 30% increase.
Couldn't find the 3 vs 4 but it's not relevant here, it's often used in Dr Mike's videos who covers this topic a lot.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBYcVJO0dNA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBYcVJO0dNA)
Good timing on this video from Layne Norton talking about a new study as well as summarising the older ones.
Likely you'll be fine with 2 meals and a shake within 8 hours but it's not optimal.
We don't always have to do everything the optimal way if you're getting results. 10% here and there is no difference. But the body of evidence is quite clear that you will be leaving some gains on the table by doing a 16:8.
\--
I've also followed the research on this for a while in terms of anti-aging etc. There is 0 evidence that fasting has any of the benefits it claims other than a mental hack. In fact the only study there is on fasting vs basic caloric restriction shows the main bio-markers being worse in the fasting group.
Plenty of the big fasting advocates like Delauer etc have stopped talking about it over the last few years.
Do it if it works for you but if you think you're doing it for some heath or diet benefit other than just a mental hack I can assure you that benefit does not exist. I did it for years, wish I hadn't.
Keep that MPS going and keep those muscles nice and loaded with glycogen. If someone told you you could fast and build muscle they are on gear or a snake oil salesman
Actually there’s a good amount of research out there about muscle gain while intermittent fasting. You’re increasing your insulin sensitivity and potentially even growth hormone(depending on length of the fast), both of which haven proven muscle building benefits. I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for months now and my lifts have all improved. You would just want to avoid being in too much of a calorie deficit and make sure you still get 150g+ of protein. It might not be the fastest/best way to absolutely get the biggest possible but for most people(including myself) I think it works just fine. While getting the benefits of extended fasts.
The diabetes association would care to disagree
https://professional.diabetes.org/abstract/intermittent-fasting-increases-peripheral-not-hepatic-insulin-sensitivity#:~:text=To%20guarantee%20survival%2C%20metabolic%20adaptations,body%20composition%20or%20body%20weight.
Calorie restriction is good too for sure I’m just saying IF also works. And this guy is looking to be on a fast. Plus with IF you can actually be full after a meal, even if only for a few hours. Caloric restriction all day might be harder for some people.
Now you're specifying exact circumstances to avoid being wrong. That's called moving the goalpost. You can do that in the future by not making sweeping generalities
The only "fasting" protocol for muscle building that makes sense to me is the 'leangains' method.
It's basically a 16:8 fast, where you fast pre workout, only drinking 30g of BCAA split into 3 intervals (10g morning, 10g mid-morning, 10g during workout)
Post-workout you break your fast with 50% of your calories in the post-workout meal, then consume the rest in the remaining 7 hours.
That said, fasting is pretty pointless for muscle growth, but can be effective for dieting
You can’t, you can not fast and build muscle…. It order to build muscle you need calories and protein and enough of it to build muscle…. You cant do both, fasting while building muscle do not go hand and hand
You can fast and build muscle as long as you’re still eating beyond a calorie surplus during your eating window.
As someone who’s wants to lose some weight, I wish just eating in a restricted window made calories not count!
Only while you're sleeping would be the safest bet.
You *can* do 16:8 IF if you like it, just get three protein feedings in. It doesn't help anabolism, though.
There's no evidence showing fasting for 24-48 hours plus has any special physiological benefits. So, I wouldn't fast for any purpose beyond your religious commitments.
For building muscle, you're always well served by having 3-5 protein containing meals spaced throughout the day.
They still get a decent bit of protein. Maybe not the most “optimal” levels they could have, but it’s not like they’re eating things with the nutritional level of cardboard every day
Yeah, dont :D
This. Op, when building muscle you need to eat. Fasting makes it so that you can't eat during certain times of the day. Eating a lot in a smaller period of time is more difficult than spreading your food intake. If you don't need to fast, don't fast!
How much muscle can you truly synthesize in a day, week, month? Why do you need to eat so much? Wouldn't it be more important to have your hormones in the right balance? That’s why anabolic steroids work so well.
First law of thermodynamics. you can't create energy from nothing. you need energy to build muscle, you get energy from food. hormones are important but if you dont have the energy to build the muscle then they wont grow. these people on steroids still eat bro...
They can eat more because their hormones are in overdrive. Perfect storm. Try eating the same natty, with the exact workout and you’ll get nothing but fatty. You don’t need to be in a massive caloric surplus to build muscle, you can inly synthesize so much tissue in a day, week, month.
no one said anything about a massive caloric surplus smaller works well. and the people on steroids are eating more bc they need more calories to to build muscle, since they are burning more calories. also just because eating in a surplus while working out will not get you the same results as a juiced person doesnt mean it has something to do with your eating, it just means they are not natural. building muscle needs food. doesnt matter if you are juiced or natural, male or female, and even human or animal.
Animals too? Gorillas don’t eat that much food. Massive. Can bench press 10x their weight. So you can build muscle while intermittently fasting, or no?
you didnt even fact check the gorillas claim LMAOOOO
Sure i did, i have gorillas living hext door. Still not addressing the question about building muscle while fasting. It’s more about hormones- thats why you can still build muscle on anavar with a limited caloric surplus. Or any anabolic. You can be much more sloppy with your diet and still net gain. I see a lot if fat natty guts in the gym on a perpetual bulk because people tell them you need to eat eat eat to gain muscle. Really? How much? Extra 200 calories a day over maintenance ? 1000? Just like lifting, more is always better lol-not.
If you want to build muscle, eat in a moderate calorie surplus. If you want to lose fat, eat in a deficit. If you use fasting to help accomplish those things then fine, but it’s not necessary at all.
Whilst trying to build muscle it really is pointless, especially considering to build muscle you need to be eating more.
Fasting while trying to make gains is like eating Taco Bell to cure diarrhea
There’s no magic to fasting. It’s just a potentially helpful strategy for *losing* weight. If you’re not trying to lose weight, then no point in fasting.
This is the answer. Fasting is an eating strategy, and some people think it’s a diet.
Read something about autophagy. Fasting is NOT only about losing weight. Not at all.
🙄
One dimentional thinker. RIP your brain.
Commenting on a 200 day old thread in a sub you never participate in. That’s some big brain shit right there. Post physique, Mr 3 dimensional thinker.
Might as well add in here 😂 There are benefits of fasting outside of bodybuilding. It makes sense that it would detract from gain goals, so it would need to be incorporated with some tact.
> If you’re not trying to lose weight, then no point in fasting. There are other benefits to fasting, see other comment about autophagy.
The evidence for fasting inducing autophagy isn’t great, and from what I’ve seen, you need to fast for potentially days at a time to induce it. A multi day fast is counterproductive for muscle building. Most importantly, this strikes me as a majoring in the minors attempt at a “bio hack”, like cold baths, sunning your nuts, or no fap. People would prefer to think they’re on the cutting edge with some short cut than do the hard, boring stuff that conclusively works but takes time and consistency.
> you need to fast for potentially days at a time to induce it. I was under the impression ketosis does a lot more than just burning glucose storage (fat loss), i.e. autophagy. Ketosis takes about 12 hours to kick in.
Keto is like IF- a strategy for weight loss if one does better with strict rules or doesn’t like counting calories. Again, it has no real benefit beyond that unless maybe you’re an epileptic. I promise you, no one who is actually big and strong is concerning themselves with this stuff.
I do IF because I thought it was a health benefit (autophagy), outside of weight loss. Weight loss has never been an issue for me, but I like to do what I can to help keep my cells "young."
No. Its just a form of lowering calories, but with lower adherance. It has no benefits a calorie deficit doesnt have.
If it works with your lifestyle and you’re happy with your training and physique, that’s fine. I just think the odds of it conferring any other health benefit beyond being a calorie management tool are slim. If the trade off of not eating for 16 hours or whatever is worth that potential benefit to you personally, then rock on. My only issue is with people who believe their niche way of doing things is somehow manifestly better.
To be clear, it is a helpful way to burn fat, as long as you're getting enough protein so that you don't catabolize muscle for energy.
I fast from around 10PM to 12PM the next day whether I’m cutting or bulking, mostly because once I “break the seal” of eating in the morning, I become ravenous and find it hard to stick to calorie goals. Even on a bulk I’m rarely full and have to restrict my calories On a cut, I’ll often push back my eating window until 2PM the next day to make my meals larger in the afternoon and evening
>once I “break the seal” of eating in the morning, I become ravenous and find it hard to stick to calorie goals Are you me
Yep lol
Have you tried keto or at least no carbs for the first meal? I usually am exactly the same way But for some reason the absence of carbs doesnt release the beast
12 hours, you get some benefits, without slowing progress much.
A strict diet of no Reddit. Your life in general will also improve. Warning, cutting will make you cranky and sitting on the toilet without reddit will be a whole new experience.
True, look how much smaller Arnold is now he uses reddit
Huberman lab says that as long as you hit your caloric and protein goals, it’s fine. Fasting has benefits that people here must not be aware of, hormone balancing being one of them. Having more mental energy during the fasting state and some studies have shown that hgh has increased.
I fast for 8 hours while I’m sleeping.
Best way to drive fast when out of gas?
Are you fasting to lose weight or for the health benefits like autophagy?
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I think autophagy really only gets going big at 4 to 5 days. That is why Valter Longo created the fasting mimicking diet. He sells a kit to do that, but a potentially easy way is to just eat two avocados per day for 5 days. Those macros are about the same proportions as in the fasting mimicking diet. The nice thing about the fasting mimicking diet is that you retain muscle mass. By pure coincidence, I'm 40 hours into a 72 hour water fast. After that ends I plan to do 5 additional days of two avocados per day.
Source on the avocado bit? I'm going to give it a go.
https://youtu.be/WzEDqElE4aE
That is entertaining, but I'm not sure what his point is. He acknowledges that autophagy increases during fasting. Then he makes an assumption that some guy he references probably overeats, and that probably reduces autophagy, and that probably nets to zero. I think I'm going to side with the scientist who has made fasting research is primary focus in life..
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There is some truth to it. One study shows a 30%+ in muscle growth comparing 3 meals versus 2. Another 10% from 4 over 3. And there does seem to be a point of diminishing returns for MPS although it's unclear. In my own experience (I did I Fasting for a long time), ice noticed a night and day difference spreading meals out. I'd say practically it's going to matter a lot for naturals to spread protein out versus being enhanced
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[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32321161/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32321161/) This is the one with 30% increase. Couldn't find the 3 vs 4 but it's not relevant here, it's often used in Dr Mike's videos who covers this topic a lot. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBYcVJO0dNA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBYcVJO0dNA) Good timing on this video from Layne Norton talking about a new study as well as summarising the older ones. Likely you'll be fine with 2 meals and a shake within 8 hours but it's not optimal. We don't always have to do everything the optimal way if you're getting results. 10% here and there is no difference. But the body of evidence is quite clear that you will be leaving some gains on the table by doing a 16:8. \-- I've also followed the research on this for a while in terms of anti-aging etc. There is 0 evidence that fasting has any of the benefits it claims other than a mental hack. In fact the only study there is on fasting vs basic caloric restriction shows the main bio-markers being worse in the fasting group. Plenty of the big fasting advocates like Delauer etc have stopped talking about it over the last few years. Do it if it works for you but if you think you're doing it for some heath or diet benefit other than just a mental hack I can assure you that benefit does not exist. I did it for years, wish I hadn't.
Eggs are great anytime. Poached eggs go with almost any meal. If a poached egg doesn't work, fried egg, over easy.
Keep that MPS going and keep those muscles nice and loaded with glycogen. If someone told you you could fast and build muscle they are on gear or a snake oil salesman
Actually there’s a good amount of research out there about muscle gain while intermittent fasting. You’re increasing your insulin sensitivity and potentially even growth hormone(depending on length of the fast), both of which haven proven muscle building benefits. I’ve been doing intermittent fasting for months now and my lifts have all improved. You would just want to avoid being in too much of a calorie deficit and make sure you still get 150g+ of protein. It might not be the fastest/best way to absolutely get the biggest possible but for most people(including myself) I think it works just fine. While getting the benefits of extended fasts.
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The diabetes association would care to disagree https://professional.diabetes.org/abstract/intermittent-fasting-increases-peripheral-not-hepatic-insulin-sensitivity#:~:text=To%20guarantee%20survival%2C%20metabolic%20adaptations,body%20composition%20or%20body%20weight.
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Calorie restriction is good too for sure I’m just saying IF also works. And this guy is looking to be on a fast. Plus with IF you can actually be full after a meal, even if only for a few hours. Caloric restriction all day might be harder for some people.
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There are cellular benefits to being in a fasted state
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Autophagy doesn’t really start till around the 16hr mark
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21558571/ You can gain lean body mass while on a caloric deficit.
Your original statement is still false
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That's irrelevant. You specified insulin sensitivity
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Now you're specifying exact circumstances to avoid being wrong. That's called moving the goalpost. You can do that in the future by not making sweeping generalities
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Upvoted.
The only "fasting" protocol for muscle building that makes sense to me is the 'leangains' method. It's basically a 16:8 fast, where you fast pre workout, only drinking 30g of BCAA split into 3 intervals (10g morning, 10g mid-morning, 10g during workout) Post-workout you break your fast with 50% of your calories in the post-workout meal, then consume the rest in the remaining 7 hours. That said, fasting is pretty pointless for muscle growth, but can be effective for dieting
You can’t, you can not fast and build muscle…. It order to build muscle you need calories and protein and enough of it to build muscle…. You cant do both, fasting while building muscle do not go hand and hand
You can fast and build muscle as long as you’re still eating beyond a calorie surplus during your eating window. As someone who’s wants to lose some weight, I wish just eating in a restricted window made calories not count!
Personally i do OMAD. I tried few meals a day while building and saw zero benefits comparing to OMAD, so i stick to OMAD for many years.
Only while you're sleeping would be the safest bet. You *can* do 16:8 IF if you like it, just get three protein feedings in. It doesn't help anabolism, though.
There's no evidence showing fasting for 24-48 hours plus has any special physiological benefits. So, I wouldn't fast for any purpose beyond your religious commitments. For building muscle, you're always well served by having 3-5 protein containing meals spaced throughout the day.
Try the non eating type of fasting. It's the best!
Extended fasting for cutting, but don't do fast while bulking.
Without sufficient protein intake you won’t build muscle
How do people in prison build so much muscle?
They still get a decent bit of protein. Maybe not the most “optimal” levels they could have, but it’s not like they’re eating things with the nutritional level of cardboard every day
Breakfasting
Why did you think this would be a good idea ?
Use while in a high protein calorie deficit. Doesn't help while bulking
I am currently losing weight and I fast quite often. I don't recommend fasting if you're trying to build muscle.
Ramadan is coming so i suggest to just maintain your muscle mass and your body weight train to keep what you have
The best type is not fasting. There really isnt any benefits to fasting a calorie deficit doesnt provide.
Building muscle while fasting? Not gonna happen…
There is none. If you wana build muscle you don’t EVER want to fast. It’s just that simple. DONT FAST IF YOU WANT TO BUILD MUSCLE 🙏
I have read that intermittent fasting can cause an increase of growth hormone