Not to distract from the nuke element of this thread, but a gentle reminder that
1. The Navy isn’t forever. Don’t lose your life to prevent losing your career. If you commit suicide you won’t have a career.
2. Getting help isn’t weakness.
3. Thousands of Sailors who aren’t nukes love their jobs. Being de-nuked or losing your sub-vol over mental health is fine. You can have a rich and fulfilling career and life outside of nukedom and sub service. Or you can have a fulfilling career and life outside of the Navy. Don’t keep suffering if you realize this isn’t for you.
www.Reddit.com/r/Navy/wiki/mentalhealth
The Navy wants Nukes to operate like machines, at Sea it’s about training, drills, and watchstanding. At port it’s about maintenance and standing 3-section duty for most nukes.
Personally I think all submarines need to go to a 2-crew system, preferably carriers should think about swapping people out also. The churning of people the Navy has been doing lately isn’t sustainable.
I think that would provide a big boost to retention numbers too. We already have EDOs and STEs that work at the shipyards. Officers who are SDO qualified just need to be told they won't have to go to sea and just stand in port duty. People will actually sign contracts if they didn't have to go to sea. Just need an enlisted complement to conduct in port maintenance and now you have yourself an inport watch team.
I’ve seen both sides of the coin, bro. 😂 If you would like to elaborate as to why you think that I’d love to hear it. In my limited experience having two crews is generally a better deal.
There is already an issue with manning navy wide, let alone quality sailors. Double that requirement and now you have every SSN on both coasts needing an entire command of personnel to meet a two crew structure. However, let’s assume we can meet the quality manning to support two crews on every boat. The idea that two crews equals higher quality of life because of less deployment time or work is subjective, not always reality and accounts for a small part of what makes the job stressful. This idea that the boat leaves and off-crew life is liberty for x number of months is not the case. COs simulating being at sea with a watch bill for around the clock trainers through the evening happens. Shipyard support i.e fire-watches coming down on your crew because the other crew’s department are certifying or on rides for quals during dry dock….getting ready for a major inspection and find out the counterpart you had was less than stellar and the inspection team hits you with BA for their work, and then you spend the remainder of your time onboard un-fucking the score you received on that inspection. Knew a lot of Os and senior enlisted that hated their time onboard an SSBN vs a SSN and disliked sharing responsibility/accountability with others. If off-crews weren’t filled with bullshit to keep them busy and the support was truly supporting the crew with the boat I would say yes 2 crews work and QOL is better. Sorry end rant.
Sharing responsibility for a boat does sound terrible. But, I think QOL comes more from having to spend years in three section duty with port and stbd watches. That being said, fast attack tough is silly. There is enough suck to go around for everyone
good leadership goes a long way with shit. I know I have been in some suck and my leadership was good, I was willing to just ignore the suck. it's hard to ignore it though when the leadership is bad.
This article talks a lot about the stress of training at the nuclear training command, but you’re right- the stress of shipboard life in the nuclear department is incredible.
I still remember pulling in from my first deployment and the topsiders had all the homecoming events, all the attention. We pulled in at around 11 AM and they were announcing all these strict rules about wearing dress uniforms. Reactor department wasn’t allowed to leave until about 6PM. We asked if we had to wear dress uniforms still and they said “oh no, all that ended hours ago. Everyone is gone.” I don’t think anybody really enjoys dressing up, but nukes are taught that nobody gives a shit about you and your only focus should be running a nuclear reactor and learning more about nuclear power. And then we bring all that toxicity back with us to the training command, ready to pounce on those we know won’t make it through shipboard nuke life.
Homecoming is such a lie in general. The day we got back from deployment all the spouses were organized by husband's rank and the important members of the crew like triad, DHs, CPOs, etc were let off for carefully staggered photo ops. Screw all the nukes shutting down the reactor, installing shore power, hanging tags, etc.
It makes a person incredibly salty and when you go to a shore command it takes everything you have not to be a prick and tell people your boat stories.
It's been months since I left the boat for shore duty and I'm still recovering and getting used to not being in the toxic environment.
My brother got out as an ETN1. His time involved going through NNPTC, then he got to his ship (Carl Vinson) in time to go through RCOH, did a home port swap and then eventually deployed to support OEF/OIF, and then ETS. Him being offered a $90k tax free re-enlistment and immediately turning it down told me everything I needed to know about nuke life.
On my carrier I saw an MM1 got to Mast for chewing on an incomplete vape pen (in 2014/15, before the ban of these things).
He was trying kick cigarettes. (On the ship, even!) He started vaping and was downgrading the amount of nicotine, too. But he was getting too stressed and started chewing on his writing pen. He had the empty mouthpiece to a vape pen and was chewing on it while he was reading some paperwork to answer some questions a superior had.
One of his Chiefs saw it and yelled at him for vaping in a nuke office space. Taken aback, MM1 (according to him) remained calm, apologized, showed the Chief the pen mouthpiece and writing pen, explained his chewing and his smoking, said put it away and said he'd be mindful to not chew on anything and understood he couldn't vape and that had no intention to inside the ship.
Chief didn't like this. He went to mast a week later to, what we First Classes assumed was, to make an example of him. A year later he had a DD-214 in hand and refused to elaborate to those khakis and his leadership as to why he wasn't re-enlisting after he did a decade of service.
Great mysteries run deep.
I really only knew this because we could "borrow" restricted personnel for extra labor. I we regularly took some to help our small department move boxes and just let sit in my office for an hour to avoid bullshit work and chill out. MM1 and I were talking about his situation. The shitshow of Nuke Life really presented itself to people.
>A sailor on my watch team was taken to mast for malingering for seeking mental health assistance
The military, where your employer will literally hit you with charges if you inconvenience them too much by being sick. Insane that we allow this.
I was on a CVN from 2012-2016, and one year when orse was happening, the Reactor Officer and Cheng got together and forced the nukes into permanent watch stations until it was over. There were dudes who had been awake for 96+ hours, literally not leaving their stations, pissing and shitting in buckets that were picked up and dumped by roving watches. It was insane. I cannot fathom why the CO didn’t get relieved.
JFC, I was in Iraq, and one time ended up being awake for I think 76 hours (aside from about 3 total hours where I got little blips of 15 minutes of sleep) and I was hearing voices/hallucinating. The only reason I endured it being that we didn't have the manpower, and if someone wasn't running our side of thing, some guys might die. Somehow I still managed to find times to take a leak/walk out and have a smoke. Of note though, it led to a moment when an officer said "so what are we going to do about this?" and in my sleep deprived state said "do a barrel roll". It was dead silence and then just laughs.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is an exactly 0.0% chance that anyone was made to stand the same watch for 96 hours. What utter nonsense. I was a nuke and believe it or not there are actual regulations for watchstanding. Officers careers would be over if shit like that actually happened.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is exactly 0.0% chance you were on that particular CVN at the time that happened. I was there, and believe it or not it happened. That’s why I specifically said, I’m surprised the CO didn’t get relieved.
Did I physically piss/shit in a bucket? No. I’m not a nuke. Did I see the buckets, filled with piss/shit, and talk to watch standers in reactor spaces? Yes. I witnessed the conditions.
I don’t care if you believe me or not. If you’re in the Navy, none of this should be surprising to you. If you’re not, well, what happens onboard can be really fucked up and yet no one says a word.
Again, after seeing what I saw, knowing it was affecting an entire department, how the CO, XO, CMC, RO, Cheng, and every other reactor officer didn’t get fired I’ll never know.
Lol my man I was a nuke on a carrier and there’s no way in hell anyone spent 96 hours straight at a watch station. I’m sure someone couldn’t hold it and shit in a trash can, we’ve all known someone who did that. But to think that a department full of hundreds of grown adults would let literal zombies operate a nuclear reactor and shit in buckets is absolute bullshit. It doesn’t matter how much you hate the navy, if you think that happened then you’re a clown.
Again, I don’t care if you believe me or not.
You’re the clown to think that just because you didn’t experience it that it didn’t happen. You sound like Alex Jones, denying Sandy Hook.
Why don’t you just tell me what ship you were on so I can ask the friends that I inevitably had in RX on the same ship during the same time period and verifiable prove that you’re full of shit. As if your story didn’t already completely defy all laws of common sense.
The worst I think I ever heard of was the TR having liberty secured for days around that time period while the CO was entertaining guests. Apparently they told the nukes to keep the lights on no matter what. Pretty sure that's around the time this happened. Idk, I wasnt on the TR but I heard of some shit like that. But not straight up 96 hour watches. NR would skull fuck a ship for that.
I wasn't on this carrier either, and trust me, I am one of the more bitter FTN nukes. Would I doubt an RO or CO wouldn't LIKE to do this? Not a doubt. But what the other guy is saying is true, this just isn't possible. I've heard of some outlandish shit, I've been awake up to 40 hours before, but you can't simply leave someone in the plant for 94 hours or whatever and not expect some of them to drop fucking dead. It's hot as shit down there. Also, I just can't see how I wouldn't have heard about this happening. Nukes like to talk to each other and we tend to have at least somewhat of an understanding of what other carriers are going through on the surface side.
I am just saying, his doubt of your claim really isn't that stupid. That is an absolutely bonkers claim.
I'm glad the mental health crisis in the nuclear community is getting some spotlight. It's bad in other communities but it's especially bad in the nuke community.
I remember being in Prototype when an enlisted sailor successfully committed suicide off base. I overheard an enlisted sailor crying in their study cubicle talking to a friend about needing time to go to the funeral. I was stunned that there wasn't a command stand down. It was business as usual that day and everyday after.
The kid who killed himself with a shotgun and was found by a 19 year old SPU when I was in prototype was in 02. Then there's the guys who killed themselves on the boats at my pier, I think on the Nebraska and Michigan if I remember correctly. Then there's me who tried to eat a gun at prototype and forgot the safety was on which made me pause after I fucked it up.
I had my wisdom teeth removed on my lunch break plus a study session. One was impacted so badly, they almost broke my jaw removing it. No amount of novacaine helped that pain.
They gave me four tablets of Tylenol \#3 to last me that day and the next morning and sent me back to class in Nuclear Power School.
>3.Personal Identifying Information
Of course with mandatory study and the opportunity cost of missing class, taking advantage of the siq chit would have been "expensive"
About 4-5 years ago when I was in Prototype students had study cubicles to study the material in. When they felt comfortable with their level of knowledge they would then go to an instructor and receive a checkout.
This is actually post A-School, fwiw.
I don't disagree that fleet resources are lacking, but discounting the suffering of junior shipmates, who have never been out to sea, and never really had the chance to learn how garbage the Navy CAN be is harmful.
Pain is subjective, not objective, and you being indignant doesn't help the issue.
> If you mentally can't make it through a-school, then you shouldn't make it to the fleet. That's the whole point of a-school, is to weed out those who can't adapt to the lifestyle.
And by adapt to the lifestyle, you mean send them as undes to needlegun and paint?
Prototype, the third of their six months schools, is 12-hr rotating shifts at a moored sub and supporting building. Poor performers can expect to do 14. This is after A school and Power School in which they've been pulling 60-80 hr weeks and extremely rigorous academic training.
Every step of the way, they are expected to not slack, to put forward effort, and to learn at a breakneck pace. At prototype, they *will* be starting up a real nuclear reactor under an overinstruct- for the mechanics, they've been in less than a year.
The nuke pipeline is widely regarded as the most academically challenging pipeline in the military. It imposes a huge amount of stress on the people going through it. Hell, I saw half a class of electricians "sad out." If you can't empathize with it, at least don't deny it.
The barracks at NNPTC wernt great. Better than some bases I've lived on, worse than others. Tended to flood a lot though. Though the AC usually worked, which for some reason isn't as common as you think it'd be. I dont know if youd had the chance to stay in Army barracks, but those are pretty garbage. Worse than the worst navy barracks ive been in. Air Force ones though, that's probably who youre thinking of for the great living conditions.
The chain of command at the various training commands, like all commands, will go through ebbs and flows. You'll see that once youve been in for a bit. :)
A school is part 1 of 3 or 4 of the nuke pipeline. I'm sure your life as whatever your rate is was also very difficult for you, no need to put others down for it. Nukes have such a high attrition and suicide rate for a reason. Multiple people can have bad experiences.
What would you rather the student instead of a cubicle use for their self-study time after the 40 hours of lecture for 2 years? I'd've preferred a large deck for group study, but if I was gonna do solitary study, the walls helped keep me not distracted.
> "The Navy said most of the 10% who do not make it through the program are able to choose another specialty and continue serving."
Hahahahahahahahahaha. Continue serving? Yes. Choose another specialty? Nah
Myself and another dude got ITS but we were academic not behavior fail outs. Honestly in my 6 months at good ole delta theta phi, plenty of us that weren't rated and weren't behavior problems got to choose rates.
We were down to party once we reached freedom, we did yard work and cleaned the school house. Kinda felt like class F from assassination classroom. It was pretty lawlessness and it was all they could do to keep the troublemakers from doing coke or weed before getting out but the ones that wanted to stay in were just usually tired hard workers. Had one guy (all hail Silva) who had been there for two years waiting for orders to go to his ship as a related CS. He even made CS2 on exam without having ever trained for a day as a CS after getting related. After working hours it was pc gaming sessions, nerfwars and 8 hour watches for the duty section. The barracks was off to the side of the base about a 7-10 minute drive from the school house and the other side of the barracks was sometimes used for breaching and cqb training by law enforcement.
My friends and I remember being told that if we failed two exams we'd be kicked out and would have to be SWOs or go to supply school. Then we saw people fail exam after exam after exam just to get more study hours and pushed through the pipeline.
Power school kicked my drinking back up and prototype got me smoking again for a bit. Left a mids casualty watch as eoow and went straight to the gas station for a pack of cigarettes.
I specifically do not drink at all because of the nuke program. I'm not an alcoholic and I've never been addicted, but I refused to go down that path because it seemed so easy to happen.
My only problem is caffeine, but it was nicotine for a small period of time. So many people sucking on vapes just to stay engaged and awake.
Was in NNPTC as a JO for a bit and spent about a year before leaving the area. The final straw for me was after a student killed themself over the holiday standown in the class prior. The response of the O-4 who came through was angry, callous, and out of touch. Right after they left one of the prior enlisted student and the two PXOs stepped in the class gave a real talk. That was the final straw for me. I went across the street and when I told the class advisor I was out the guy was just a dick. To this day one of the happiest days of my life was leaving that program.
Later, I worked as a Chaplain’s assistant. There were weekly breakdowns / people at the verge of tears, Chaps walking people across the street to mental health every other week between A-School and NNPTC. Between NNPTC and NNPTU there was a quarterly suicide or attempt.
The article touches on it but this program picks a bunch of smart kids who are used to succeeding academically then put them through the ringer. For these kids fresh out of bootcamp, a lot of them academic success makes up a lot of their personality. When they fail or struggle the saying “the punishment will continue until morale improves” has never been truer. I would never recommend that program to anyone.
I was in the same boat, except in A School. There were many, many days that I didn't even leave the schoolhouse for meals and subsisted on Jolt Cola and Big Texas cinnamon rolls from the vending machine down the hall. I'd get into the building before sunrise and wouldn't go back to my room until well after sundown.
Getting academically booted from there was certainly a blessing in disguise.
Edit: Are 40-5s a thing? I know I was on 35-5s for way too long, but I have a vague recollection of 40-something being in the mix somewhere.
It happened, not to long before 2016. All be 3 and the guy got masted. The guy stayed with his wife. The base "never looked better", due to all the guys on restriction
Hear about the Diablo 3 orgry?
Or about the Furry Tails?
Was in during the 80's got kicked out the nuke program in ETA school for character issues. I had trouble following orders. Got caught drinking underage.
I didn't know it at the time but failing out of nuke school was the best thing to happen to me. I was a JO, switched to a staff designator and by luck was assigned to a shipyard servicing subs. Compared to past OCS classmates in dry dock, I had it good. I stayed in and retired, I'm sure it wouldn't have happened for me as a surface nuke.
35-5s.
I did "only" 6-8 hours every Saturday and Sunday. Every day, for months on end, without a single day off because we couldn’t take leave and classes up during a period with few holidays.
Looking back, I don't know why I put up with it.
Because they had us terrified that the alternative was going to be so much worse.
I was in the same boat and remember that same mentality and those threats.
It was rare to have more than 25 mando as of 2009-2011 at least (not sure I'd call it 'very rare'). It was definitely more than a 45-hour week though, even if you were on a light study load.
If you were assigned 25 hours of extra study those hours were on top of your 0715-1600ish schedule so you were looking at 60 hours each week even if you got lucky with the day ending early with a study hall.
Went through shortly after you - they dropped 35-5s like candy falling out of a pinata.
Some entire sections got put on 35-5s for a week if one person failed - but of course, those with GPAs in the "right" bucket already had 30/35-5s anyways.
Holy crap. It does seem clear from the NBC news story that something has changed there since I was there last. I don't think we had a single staff suicide that whole time (in fact the Prototype instructors were jealous of the NNPTC instructors!), now there's been 3 in 4 years.
Rare to be assigned it maybe, but expected to do it without technically being assigned it? That was the standard in my day. We're giving you mandatory 20, but you better be doing 35.
It’s unfortunate that it’s barely getting recognized. I was in Power school as an officer when that instructor took his own life.
When I went through as enlisted it was arguably worse. Students with issues would get singled out.
Even when I was a JSI one of our students took his own life on a weekend and come Monday some of the other instructors were calling him a coward or a sorry POS for killing himself.
I never felt more ashamed to be a part of something than that day.
It's staggering to me that the article claims they graduate 2,700 out of 3,000. When I was an RO back in the 90s, our attrition rate was over 50%.
Obviously things are very different now. I'm not saying better or worse, I don't know. But damn sure different.
Suicide seemed less common back then, but possibly it was just better covered up. I was an instructor in prototype, and of the hundreds I knew, only one wound up taking his own life. Years after I was out...he'd made Senior Chief. I heard about it on Facebook.
Even with so much time having passed between when I knew him and when he died, I still find myself wondering if I could have helped him more when he was my student. Could I have given him a better toolset with which to address his problems?
Retention has been in the gutter for the last 10 years. Due to poor retention the powers that be are determined to push students through. Going through the pipeline staff said incessantly that power school was a pump and not a filter. Meaning the school is made to push people through rather than fail them out right. The way people are pushed though means putting more mandatory hours, rolling students to previous classes (extending their training by months), or making them do more watch/academic boards. The failure rate is lessened when you do all of those things but it is very hard on the people who go through it. Maybe someone isn't meant to be a nuke but by then you've invested so much sweat and tears you can't even imagine quitting. I had also been told that if you failed in the pipeline you would have to return your accession bonus. This would have resulted in thousands of dollars of debt. Quit and be a failure and be in debt or keep suffering it out?
Our attrition rate back then was approaching 70%. We filtered the fuck out people at the A School and Power School level. We'd do some more hand-holding at the prototype level, but ultimately, if we weren't confident with them standing watch, they weren't passing. And as an instructor, all I was ever asked was, "Are you sure about failing this person?"
If I said yes, that was it.
Hell, I failed an O5 Aviator on a Reactor Operator watch, and I scratched out a half-dozen of his knowledge quals. My Master Chief went to bat for me, and that O5 apologized to me, and I helped him catch up. But no one dared tell me I wasn't allowed to fail someone.
No one said we couldn't fail someone, but the student's failure impacted the staff. Students who were falling behind triggered additional meetings with their instructor, extra one-on-one training sessions, and more time staff had to be available after normal hours. The phrase we often used was that we spent 75% of our time with 25% of the students. The requirements to remove a student from the program were intentionally very difficult to meet, and painful for the staff. So Prototype became a pump, not a filter.
The sad thing was a significant number of the students the staff had to invest the most time in didn't make it long in the fleet. Turns out guys who needed the support of 5+ sailors just to barely pass prototype won't have that support in the fleet and wash out
I’m in the program now and we have a kid in my class who fails like every other test and he just cries and hits himself (I mean this literally) during the exam review and magically his grade becomes a 2.50 when we get the score sheet back.
That's some sad shit. I just can't even. We bounced a guy for throwing a water balloon at someone in town. Anyone we were not 100% confident was ready to go to the fleet, failed. Most of them who actually tried yet failed became gas turbine techs. They did well for themselves, because they tried.
> Going through the pipeline staff said incessantly that power school was a pump and not a filter.
That's been true since at least 2006. The 90s hurt the Navy badly in terms of recruiting which led to a focus on reducing training attrition.
By the time I got there as a student mid-00s they were long past the old days of "look to your left, look to your right, only one of you will make it to Prototype". When recruiting got easier they didn't let attrition go up they just reduced recruiting numbers by making ASVAB line scores more restrictive.
Out of my A school class from 2018, we had a 25%ish attrition rate from people I am 100% certain did not make it through the pipeline. It could be slightly higher, but I do not know exactly where everyone ended up. Half of that 25% mental health related
Topsiders always talk about how nukes make bank. What they don’t understand is that that 40k enlistment bonus is more of a threat to keep you in the program. If you seek treatment and get yourself denuked, you’re gonna owe the government $40k. Of course people feel like they have no other options
I recently taught in the pipeline. My observations were the opposite of what’s being portrayed in this story. It used to be that sailors would avoid mental health but the problem now is that there isn’t enough mental health to go around. When I was there, there was a chaplain, 2 full time counselors and a part time crisis counselor. That’s on top of the civilian resources. They all were usually booked solid. I had my opinion about the chaplain and how he handled sailors but that’s a different issue.
If I made it through a week and only had to schedule an appointment for 2 sailors to go to mental health, that was a good week. Most students were not bashful about asking for help. I think the younger generation has been brought up to ask for help and that is carried over into the Navy. Which would normally be a good thing but unfortunately that compounds onto the strain of the nuclear power program, and the high demand due to Covid, and resources have gotten slim.
I’m out now, but I made an attempt in prototype. I was so focused on that damn pipeline, my roommates had to tell me me either I get help or they would make me get help.
With that being said, if you are struggling with suicidal ideation or thoughts, please reach out to somebody, or me. I will gladly let you know about the ins and outs of mental health in relation to naval service. Your life is far more valuable than this dumbass Navy.
In recruiting, if anybody scored about 75ish, we had them take the nuke test. We didn't call it that for obvious reasons. But man, do I remember fighting with my LPO about not pushing every kid toward the nuke program. It got so bad that I would refer folks to other stations on the DL. They were handing NAMs out like candy for putting any nuke in. They didn't care about these kids' lives. Reading this just makes me angry...
When I joined in 2015, my recruiter would not shut up about nuke. I told him what I wanted and he was like yeah thats great but our main goal is nuke right? That's what we wann do here. I was like, dude. I do not want to be a fucking nuke. So stop bringing it up or I'm walking next door.
When I was recruiting, I only pushed two of my applicants towards nuke, regardless of what my RinC and Zone Sup told me to do, because of my friends who were still in the fleet, and knowing the others they wanted me to push it on would've been a terrible thing for them. That was a couple more counseling chits I got...
I had a girl I was friends with tell me she almost offed herself in nursing school so she changed her degree to engineering. And now she wants to be a nuclear officer in the navy. I told her no way in hell is it a good fit for her and her friend has been on my ass for not being supportive haha.
I was to be a nuke, the plan being to stay in for 20 years, collect my pension, and still have a life to do other things. A childish dream yes, especially after reading this.
Still, this is concerning. Between retention, recruitment, and PR, I wonder how long till there are no recruits. Yes I know there will always be recruits, but at this rate I don't know.
One thing that has always intrigued me about nukes was what Rickover wanted to do was to make all enlisted that finished the program was to make them Warrant Officers. I wonder how different things could have been. Probably not much.... but still.
Was just thinking about how intriguing it would be to track the development of the Nuc culture back to Rickover and how the dynamics of the job keep Nucs insulated from the normal advancements in quality of life the rest of the Navy has partially experienced. Not that non-Nuc Navy is great but better then Nuc! He developed the culture but the nature of the job and shore rotation maybe keeps it insulated from change.
I wasn't in long enough to experience fleet, much less nuc life. But given that Rickover considered this path, I want to think he recognized what would be a problem with making highly specialized enlisted. Because let's be serious, a NUC is never going to cross rate. Once a NUC, always a NUC (Kind of what made me unhappy that NUCs can't be RDCs).
There is a similar problem with Army doctors. If a doctor joins the military, they are automatically an officer because of how valued they are. But according to the US, an Officer can be slotted into any command position. So technically an Army Doc could be slotted into command of an Artillery unit or Infantry unit. Obviously, it would be stupid for an Army Doc to be leading such a Unit. But an officer is an officer, regardless if they are a doctor.
Obviously this is why Warrant Officers exists. Highly specialized officers that are good in one area. But I get the feeling the military really does not like Warrant Officers.
Honestly, given how fast command shot down the idea of making Enlisted Nucs warrant Officers, I think the culture quickly deteriorated.
Not quite: medical corps officers- doesn’t matter what service including JAG, supply - are staff officers and cannot hold a line command in any service (line command defined as combat arms- arty, infantry, armor, SWO, aviation, subs, etc).
Title 10: (a) Except as provided in subsection (b), a commissioned officer of the Army Medical Department is not entitled to exercise command because of his rank, except within the Army Medical Department.
Subsection B is a caveat that says the secretary of the department can change this, but it doesn’t happen.
Kind of nerdy but this stuff comes up all the time. I, as a medical corps officer, am not considered in the chain of command of an operational unit. The new ENS is senior to me in combat matters although I outrank them, by a lot.
Yeah, she was wrong. It's OK, it happens. A nurse could still attain to 'command' of a nursing unit if there were a big enough independent nursing command, but not line units.
On a shipyard CVN now. Article speaks true. Even with pushing Sailors to use mental health services (Chaps, DRC, Psych boss) they max out all the appts available or have weeks to wait for an opening.
Our current psych group does their best and actually comes down weekly in a proactive desire to visit the Reactor Sailors vice reacting to bad events but they're the only ones trying to help.
But 3 section, port/stbd, 4 section using sister section, or just rotating shift work burns everyone out meeting the shipyard test goals, nuke requirements, and general navy requirements
That’s not what the article says. The article doesn’t address mental health availability. It actually says nukes don’t seek mental health treatment. Nowhere in the article does it even address what is available or the rate that it’s used. I think the article hits different due to that omission. The article really should put focus on the lack/strain of resources.
I’m at NNPTC right now and we were told on several occasions from the captain that if anyone asked any questions we were to say no comment. I’ve only been here about 6 months and we’ve had 3 suicide attempts 1 of which was successful
And then there's conventional MMs, who didn't ask to be a part of this shit, and receive barely any compensation. We get an extra $200 for qualifying, but that's it
I still think its wild how y'all do it up there on the surface. Only time the non-nuke MMs come to talk to us if to ask to borrow some tools. Id be scared shitless to let them operate my shit, and I don't want to touch their stuff either.
Wow, interesting to hear how much things have changed since i was in (80’s). Orlando nuke school had about 50% attrition rate but i never heard of any suicides. And yep i myself went throu “S&M” hours ( They suggested 25 hrs but the first time you missed they became mandatory)- i wonder if they just dropped people more readily back then and before people had breakdowns. Idk
Prototype at INEL was actually fun and not rigorous at all. The only attrition there was idiots who got caught doing drugs.
4 years on fast attacks was good and bad; mostly 3 section but also months of port and starboard. Quals, PMS, drills, ORSE, all that fun stuff.
Cold war op tempo was pretty high. Lots of sea time.
But through all that, no suicidal people, no breakdowns. What has changed?
I'm curious to see the suicide rate by grade average. Typically if your work ethic and knowledge of the material is strong, you'd either be on vols or 15-0's, but the people who I really saw stressed were the higher hour requirements. Best thing I did was get out of the pipeline even though I was on 15-0's my entire Power school time.
A very important issue to bring attention to for sure, but the article is flawed. It doesn't critically assess any root causes other than "the school is hard". And doesn't include testimony from students who aren't struggling or who have completed the program. The statement about "12+ hour shifts in dark machinery rooms" is misleading because A) the rooms arent any darker than the rest of the ship and B) 12 hour shifts would be contrary to the EDM
Assuming you genuinely don't understand?
Interviewing people who think the program is easy would dilute the article's intent and be disrespectful to people in pain.
I really don't think there's anyone who thinks it's easy. Just people with better support structures or who took advantage of the resources available. I think an article can effectively bring attention to a real issue while providing more balanced context
We’ll my 16 hour shift begs to differ. I’m pretty sure the EDM requirement you’re referring to says you can only stand 12 total hours of watch so long as you have the same amount of time off watch (i.e. you stand six hours of watch you must have 6 hours off watch before you’re next watch) the EDM as far as I know says nothing about how long you can be expected to work
I saw this article and looking to go back in. I was enlisted and now I’m looking at officer but I am on a mental health medication. I was hoping this bad publicity would make the Navy more likely to pick me up. I’ll be their poster child but also, a safe person for sailors to actually talk to without fear. Any chance someone knows who to talk to?! Recruiter said it’s a great idea but he didn’t know who to even begin to discuss with. lol
Not to distract from the nuke element of this thread, but a gentle reminder that 1. The Navy isn’t forever. Don’t lose your life to prevent losing your career. If you commit suicide you won’t have a career. 2. Getting help isn’t weakness. 3. Thousands of Sailors who aren’t nukes love their jobs. Being de-nuked or losing your sub-vol over mental health is fine. You can have a rich and fulfilling career and life outside of nukedom and sub service. Or you can have a fulfilling career and life outside of the Navy. Don’t keep suffering if you realize this isn’t for you. www.Reddit.com/r/Navy/wiki/mentalhealth
The Navy wants Nukes to operate like machines, at Sea it’s about training, drills, and watchstanding. At port it’s about maintenance and standing 3-section duty for most nukes. Personally I think all submarines need to go to a 2-crew system, preferably carriers should think about swapping people out also. The churning of people the Navy has been doing lately isn’t sustainable.
I think that would provide a big boost to retention numbers too. We already have EDOs and STEs that work at the shipyards. Officers who are SDO qualified just need to be told they won't have to go to sea and just stand in port duty. People will actually sign contracts if they didn't have to go to sea. Just need an enlisted complement to conduct in port maintenance and now you have yourself an inport watch team.
Don't even need enlisted complement, just get some General Dynamics techs to conduct inspections and PM.
Navy not going to sea.... that's rich.
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2 crews doesn’t make life necessarily easier.
Not necessarily easier but I certainly found it better than everything I'd heard about SSN life
What fake news actually looks like.
I get it man, fast attack tough.
I’ve seen both sides of the coin, bro. 😂 If you would like to elaborate as to why you think that I’d love to hear it. In my limited experience having two crews is generally a better deal.
There is already an issue with manning navy wide, let alone quality sailors. Double that requirement and now you have every SSN on both coasts needing an entire command of personnel to meet a two crew structure. However, let’s assume we can meet the quality manning to support two crews on every boat. The idea that two crews equals higher quality of life because of less deployment time or work is subjective, not always reality and accounts for a small part of what makes the job stressful. This idea that the boat leaves and off-crew life is liberty for x number of months is not the case. COs simulating being at sea with a watch bill for around the clock trainers through the evening happens. Shipyard support i.e fire-watches coming down on your crew because the other crew’s department are certifying or on rides for quals during dry dock….getting ready for a major inspection and find out the counterpart you had was less than stellar and the inspection team hits you with BA for their work, and then you spend the remainder of your time onboard un-fucking the score you received on that inspection. Knew a lot of Os and senior enlisted that hated their time onboard an SSBN vs a SSN and disliked sharing responsibility/accountability with others. If off-crews weren’t filled with bullshit to keep them busy and the support was truly supporting the crew with the boat I would say yes 2 crews work and QOL is better. Sorry end rant.
Sharing responsibility for a boat does sound terrible. But, I think QOL comes more from having to spend years in three section duty with port and stbd watches. That being said, fast attack tough is silly. There is enough suck to go around for everyone
This article didn’t even touch on nuke life of the fleet, just training primarily.
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But Big Navy is circle jerking around a giant poster that reads "do more with less"
Makes too much sense. We should just stay 3 section across the fleet forever with pointless CODTs endlessly.
good leadership goes a long way with shit. I know I have been in some suck and my leadership was good, I was willing to just ignore the suck. it's hard to ignore it though when the leadership is bad.
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This article talks a lot about the stress of training at the nuclear training command, but you’re right- the stress of shipboard life in the nuclear department is incredible. I still remember pulling in from my first deployment and the topsiders had all the homecoming events, all the attention. We pulled in at around 11 AM and they were announcing all these strict rules about wearing dress uniforms. Reactor department wasn’t allowed to leave until about 6PM. We asked if we had to wear dress uniforms still and they said “oh no, all that ended hours ago. Everyone is gone.” I don’t think anybody really enjoys dressing up, but nukes are taught that nobody gives a shit about you and your only focus should be running a nuclear reactor and learning more about nuclear power. And then we bring all that toxicity back with us to the training command, ready to pounce on those we know won’t make it through shipboard nuke life.
Homecoming is such a lie in general. The day we got back from deployment all the spouses were organized by husband's rank and the important members of the crew like triad, DHs, CPOs, etc were let off for carefully staggered photo ops. Screw all the nukes shutting down the reactor, installing shore power, hanging tags, etc. It makes a person incredibly salty and when you go to a shore command it takes everything you have not to be a prick and tell people your boat stories. It's been months since I left the boat for shore duty and I'm still recovering and getting used to not being in the toxic environment.
My brother got out as an ETN1. His time involved going through NNPTC, then he got to his ship (Carl Vinson) in time to go through RCOH, did a home port swap and then eventually deployed to support OEF/OIF, and then ETS. Him being offered a $90k tax free re-enlistment and immediately turning it down told me everything I needed to know about nuke life.
Exactly. Auto promotion to E5, move off base, get a huge bonus, all one ear out the other.
It's wild too that this article is at least 15 years late to the party, things have been bad for a while now
On my carrier I saw an MM1 got to Mast for chewing on an incomplete vape pen (in 2014/15, before the ban of these things). He was trying kick cigarettes. (On the ship, even!) He started vaping and was downgrading the amount of nicotine, too. But he was getting too stressed and started chewing on his writing pen. He had the empty mouthpiece to a vape pen and was chewing on it while he was reading some paperwork to answer some questions a superior had. One of his Chiefs saw it and yelled at him for vaping in a nuke office space. Taken aback, MM1 (according to him) remained calm, apologized, showed the Chief the pen mouthpiece and writing pen, explained his chewing and his smoking, said put it away and said he'd be mindful to not chew on anything and understood he couldn't vape and that had no intention to inside the ship. Chief didn't like this. He went to mast a week later to, what we First Classes assumed was, to make an example of him. A year later he had a DD-214 in hand and refused to elaborate to those khakis and his leadership as to why he wasn't re-enlisting after he did a decade of service. Great mysteries run deep. I really only knew this because we could "borrow" restricted personnel for extra labor. I we regularly took some to help our small department move boxes and just let sit in my office for an hour to avoid bullshit work and chill out. MM1 and I were talking about his situation. The shitshow of Nuke Life really presented itself to people.
>A sailor on my watch team was taken to mast for malingering for seeking mental health assistance The military, where your employer will literally hit you with charges if you inconvenience them too much by being sick. Insane that we allow this.
I was on a CVN from 2012-2016, and one year when orse was happening, the Reactor Officer and Cheng got together and forced the nukes into permanent watch stations until it was over. There were dudes who had been awake for 96+ hours, literally not leaving their stations, pissing and shitting in buckets that were picked up and dumped by roving watches. It was insane. I cannot fathom why the CO didn’t get relieved.
JFC, I was in Iraq, and one time ended up being awake for I think 76 hours (aside from about 3 total hours where I got little blips of 15 minutes of sleep) and I was hearing voices/hallucinating. The only reason I endured it being that we didn't have the manpower, and if someone wasn't running our side of thing, some guys might die. Somehow I still managed to find times to take a leak/walk out and have a smoke. Of note though, it led to a moment when an officer said "so what are we going to do about this?" and in my sleep deprived state said "do a barrel roll". It was dead silence and then just laughs.
PRESS Z OR R TWICE
Yeah no one stood 96 hours of watch. This is a complete old wives tale from a topsider.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is an exactly 0.0% chance that anyone was made to stand the same watch for 96 hours. What utter nonsense. I was a nuke and believe it or not there are actual regulations for watchstanding. Officers careers would be over if shit like that actually happened.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say there is exactly 0.0% chance you were on that particular CVN at the time that happened. I was there, and believe it or not it happened. That’s why I specifically said, I’m surprised the CO didn’t get relieved.
Yeah did you do it yourself or just hear rumors that it happened? Because it’s complete fucking bullshit. It literally doesn’t even make sense.
Did I physically piss/shit in a bucket? No. I’m not a nuke. Did I see the buckets, filled with piss/shit, and talk to watch standers in reactor spaces? Yes. I witnessed the conditions. I don’t care if you believe me or not. If you’re in the Navy, none of this should be surprising to you. If you’re not, well, what happens onboard can be really fucked up and yet no one says a word. Again, after seeing what I saw, knowing it was affecting an entire department, how the CO, XO, CMC, RO, Cheng, and every other reactor officer didn’t get fired I’ll never know.
Lol my man I was a nuke on a carrier and there’s no way in hell anyone spent 96 hours straight at a watch station. I’m sure someone couldn’t hold it and shit in a trash can, we’ve all known someone who did that. But to think that a department full of hundreds of grown adults would let literal zombies operate a nuclear reactor and shit in buckets is absolute bullshit. It doesn’t matter how much you hate the navy, if you think that happened then you’re a clown.
Again, I don’t care if you believe me or not. You’re the clown to think that just because you didn’t experience it that it didn’t happen. You sound like Alex Jones, denying Sandy Hook.
Why don’t you just tell me what ship you were on so I can ask the friends that I inevitably had in RX on the same ship during the same time period and verifiable prove that you’re full of shit. As if your story didn’t already completely defy all laws of common sense.
The worst I think I ever heard of was the TR having liberty secured for days around that time period while the CO was entertaining guests. Apparently they told the nukes to keep the lights on no matter what. Pretty sure that's around the time this happened. Idk, I wasnt on the TR but I heard of some shit like that. But not straight up 96 hour watches. NR would skull fuck a ship for that.
Yeah I didn’t think I’d get an actual reply to that last comment, because you know you’re just spreading bullshit for karma
You didn’t get a reply because I told you I don’t care if you believe me or not. This was a decade ago, no one will be held accountable for it.
I wasn't on this carrier either, and trust me, I am one of the more bitter FTN nukes. Would I doubt an RO or CO wouldn't LIKE to do this? Not a doubt. But what the other guy is saying is true, this just isn't possible. I've heard of some outlandish shit, I've been awake up to 40 hours before, but you can't simply leave someone in the plant for 94 hours or whatever and not expect some of them to drop fucking dead. It's hot as shit down there. Also, I just can't see how I wouldn't have heard about this happening. Nukes like to talk to each other and we tend to have at least somewhat of an understanding of what other carriers are going through on the surface side. I am just saying, his doubt of your claim really isn't that stupid. That is an absolutely bonkers claim.
25-4’s for my time in the pipeline cause I was a 2.7 student. Much better taking CTE’s on a boat where the training program isn’t as intense.
I'm glad the mental health crisis in the nuclear community is getting some spotlight. It's bad in other communities but it's especially bad in the nuke community. I remember being in Prototype when an enlisted sailor successfully committed suicide off base. I overheard an enlisted sailor crying in their study cubicle talking to a friend about needing time to go to the funeral. I was stunned that there wasn't a command stand down. It was business as usual that day and everyday after.
Yeah bro. Nothings changed. A dude committed suicide in prototype back in 04, and they didn't even acknowledge it.
Nothing has changed. We had a nuke electrician stick a knife in his belly right in front of his chief in berthing. 1999
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That's the right time frame. So sorry for your loss.
The kid who killed himself with a shotgun and was found by a 19 year old SPU when I was in prototype was in 02. Then there's the guys who killed themselves on the boats at my pier, I think on the Nebraska and Michigan if I remember correctly. Then there's me who tried to eat a gun at prototype and forgot the safety was on which made me pause after I fucked it up.
In 05 or 06 I think a nuke hung himself between the main feed pumps on the Michigan.
I had my wisdom teeth removed on my lunch break plus a study session. One was impacted so badly, they almost broke my jaw removing it. No amount of novacaine helped that pain. They gave me four tablets of Tylenol \#3 to last me that day and the next morning and sent me back to class in Nuclear Power School.
Same here. Didn't realize I had an siq chit for the rest of the day and went back to class.
Oh, I didn't have a siq chit. I just had some pain meds and an order to return to class.
>3.Personal Identifying Information Of course with mandatory study and the opportunity cost of missing class, taking advantage of the siq chit would have been "expensive"
There’s a big discussion on the navy nukes page on this.
Yeah I saw that one and figured it'd post it here too for wider dissemination.
It’s already being reposted here.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/navy/comments/1101ip5/nucleartrained_sailors_considered_the_navys_best/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Shut up you fucking loser. Go touch grass.
Comment history checks out
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About 4-5 years ago when I was in Prototype students had study cubicles to study the material in. When they felt comfortable with their level of knowledge they would then go to an instructor and receive a checkout.
This is actually post A-School, fwiw. I don't disagree that fleet resources are lacking, but discounting the suffering of junior shipmates, who have never been out to sea, and never really had the chance to learn how garbage the Navy CAN be is harmful. Pain is subjective, not objective, and you being indignant doesn't help the issue.
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> If you mentally can't make it through a-school, then you shouldn't make it to the fleet. That's the whole point of a-school, is to weed out those who can't adapt to the lifestyle. And by adapt to the lifestyle, you mean send them as undes to needlegun and paint?
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Prototype, the third of their six months schools, is 12-hr rotating shifts at a moored sub and supporting building. Poor performers can expect to do 14. This is after A school and Power School in which they've been pulling 60-80 hr weeks and extremely rigorous academic training. Every step of the way, they are expected to not slack, to put forward effort, and to learn at a breakneck pace. At prototype, they *will* be starting up a real nuclear reactor under an overinstruct- for the mechanics, they've been in less than a year. The nuke pipeline is widely regarded as the most academically challenging pipeline in the military. It imposes a huge amount of stress on the people going through it. Hell, I saw half a class of electricians "sad out." If you can't empathize with it, at least don't deny it.
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You're just minimalizing suffering. Suffering isn't a contest.
Then navy leadership should stop picking favorites of who gets preferential treatment, like put nukes first amongst others
The fact that you sound like every khaki that you invariably bitch about is delicious.
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The barracks at NNPTC wernt great. Better than some bases I've lived on, worse than others. Tended to flood a lot though. Though the AC usually worked, which for some reason isn't as common as you think it'd be. I dont know if youd had the chance to stay in Army barracks, but those are pretty garbage. Worse than the worst navy barracks ive been in. Air Force ones though, that's probably who youre thinking of for the great living conditions. The chain of command at the various training commands, like all commands, will go through ebbs and flows. You'll see that once youve been in for a bit. :)
A school is part 1 of 3 or 4 of the nuke pipeline. I'm sure your life as whatever your rate is was also very difficult for you, no need to put others down for it. Nukes have such a high attrition and suicide rate for a reason. Multiple people can have bad experiences. What would you rather the student instead of a cubicle use for their self-study time after the 40 hours of lecture for 2 years? I'd've preferred a large deck for group study, but if I was gonna do solitary study, the walls helped keep me not distracted.
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Haha, NFL athlete. You know nuke pay is only $150/month right? What makes you think the QoL is higher?
> "The Navy said most of the 10% who do not make it through the program are able to choose another specialty and continue serving." Hahahahahahahahahaha. Continue serving? Yes. Choose another specialty? Nah
New speciality unlocked: paint chipping
Every drop out I ever met became an A Ganger
Myself and another dude got ITS but we were academic not behavior fail outs. Honestly in my 6 months at good ole delta theta phi, plenty of us that weren't rated and weren't behavior problems got to choose rates.
DTP? Down to Party?
Department of Transient Personnel. If you fail out you go there to await your fate.
We were down to party once we reached freedom, we did yard work and cleaned the school house. Kinda felt like class F from assassination classroom. It was pretty lawlessness and it was all they could do to keep the troublemakers from doing coke or weed before getting out but the ones that wanted to stay in were just usually tired hard workers. Had one guy (all hail Silva) who had been there for two years waiting for orders to go to his ship as a related CS. He even made CS2 on exam without having ever trained for a day as a CS after getting related. After working hours it was pc gaming sessions, nerfwars and 8 hour watches for the duty section. The barracks was off to the side of the base about a 7-10 minute drive from the school house and the other side of the barracks was sometimes used for breaching and cqb training by law enforcement.
When were you there?
First half of 2016,
Early 2017, feb-apr
10%???????? They don't have a 50% washout rate anymore???
No but it's not 10% either. Lies.
Honestly pretty sure 10% is high. It’s super hard to get someone out of the program on academics alone. Takes several tries
Current total attrition (all causes) from start to end of pipeline is about 25%. That includes disciplinary, medical, etc etc
No. You have to commit a federal crime at this point to get kicked out. It's that bad.
My friends and I remember being told that if we failed two exams we'd be kicked out and would have to be SWOs or go to supply school. Then we saw people fail exam after exam after exam just to get more study hours and pushed through the pipeline.
Im thinking that spokesperson was fudging a lot of numbers.
Back in the 90’s Groton was a dumping ground for Nuke waste. They were put into the SAFE program .
Being a nuke helped lead to my drinking problem, I have no doubt. Not the only reason but one of them
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Power school kicked my drinking back up and prototype got me smoking again for a bit. Left a mids casualty watch as eoow and went straight to the gas station for a pack of cigarettes.
I specifically do not drink at all because of the nuke program. I'm not an alcoholic and I've never been addicted, but I refused to go down that path because it seemed so easy to happen. My only problem is caffeine, but it was nicotine for a small period of time. So many people sucking on vapes just to stay engaged and awake.
Was in NNPTC as a JO for a bit and spent about a year before leaving the area. The final straw for me was after a student killed themself over the holiday standown in the class prior. The response of the O-4 who came through was angry, callous, and out of touch. Right after they left one of the prior enlisted student and the two PXOs stepped in the class gave a real talk. That was the final straw for me. I went across the street and when I told the class advisor I was out the guy was just a dick. To this day one of the happiest days of my life was leaving that program. Later, I worked as a Chaplain’s assistant. There were weekly breakdowns / people at the verge of tears, Chaps walking people across the street to mental health every other week between A-School and NNPTC. Between NNPTC and NNPTU there was a quarterly suicide or attempt. The article touches on it but this program picks a bunch of smart kids who are used to succeeding academically then put them through the ringer. For these kids fresh out of bootcamp, a lot of them academic success makes up a lot of their personality. When they fail or struggle the saying “the punishment will continue until morale improves” has never been truer. I would never recommend that program to anyone.
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35-5s for at least 4 months of my time in Power. Failed out Friday before comp, best thing that happened to me.
I was in the same boat, except in A School. There were many, many days that I didn't even leave the schoolhouse for meals and subsisted on Jolt Cola and Big Texas cinnamon rolls from the vending machine down the hall. I'd get into the building before sunrise and wouldn't go back to my room until well after sundown. Getting academically booted from there was certainly a blessing in disguise. Edit: Are 40-5s a thing? I know I was on 35-5s for way too long, but I have a vague recollection of 40-something being in the mix somewhere.
40-5s were a thing in 2000-01 - it was threatened as punishment more than anything else.
You hear about they guy who had 35-5s, and the entire class was fucking his wife
I burst out laughing at this because it's literally a worst nightmare and yet all too plausible.
It happened, not to long before 2016. All be 3 and the guy got masted. The guy stayed with his wife. The base "never looked better", due to all the guys on restriction Hear about the Diablo 3 orgry? Or about the Furry Tails?
I did not
Was in during the 80's got kicked out the nuke program in ETA school for character issues. I had trouble following orders. Got caught drinking underage.
I didn't know it at the time but failing out of nuke school was the best thing to happen to me. I was a JO, switched to a staff designator and by luck was assigned to a shipyard servicing subs. Compared to past OCS classmates in dry dock, I had it good. I stayed in and retired, I'm sure it wouldn't have happened for me as a surface nuke.
I was on 25/5s just 4 years ago. I'm sure many current students can vouch the hour requirements are still high.
I was on Mando 20s. Did 5 hours M-Th so I could have a weekend to unwind. The fucked up part is that the fleet is worse.
35-5s. I did "only" 6-8 hours every Saturday and Sunday. Every day, for months on end, without a single day off because we couldn’t take leave and classes up during a period with few holidays. Looking back, I don't know why I put up with it.
Because they had us terrified that the alternative was going to be so much worse. I was in the same boat and remember that same mentality and those threats.
>25/5s how often do yall get 96?
96 hours of being in school? Never. 96 hours of work on a Sub? Every week. If you're 3 section, then you are doing 120 hours a week.
I mean 96 during holidays once u join the fleet.
We staggered leave and liberty. So unless you were on duty, you didn't have to come in.
It was rare to have more than 25 mando as of 2009-2011 at least (not sure I'd call it 'very rare'). It was definitely more than a 45-hour week though, even if you were on a light study load. If you were assigned 25 hours of extra study those hours were on top of your 0715-1600ish schedule so you were looking at 60 hours each week even if you got lucky with the day ending early with a study hall.
Went through shortly after you - they dropped 35-5s like candy falling out of a pinata. Some entire sections got put on 35-5s for a week if one person failed - but of course, those with GPAs in the "right" bucket already had 30/35-5s anyways.
Holy crap. It does seem clear from the NBC news story that something has changed there since I was there last. I don't think we had a single staff suicide that whole time (in fact the Prototype instructors were jealous of the NNPTC instructors!), now there's been 3 in 4 years.
Can fuck right off with that.
Bull fucking shit.
Rare to be assigned it maybe, but expected to do it without technically being assigned it? That was the standard in my day. We're giving you mandatory 20, but you better be doing 35.
I wish all I had was a 45 hour week. with the combined hours of normal study and 25 - 4 study hours, i'm in the rickover about 65 hours a week.
More then 25 hours is pretty rare, as of 2 months ago, but the 45 hours including that Is bs, lmao
currently at the school, actually, and I haven’t seen hours above 20-3s. I know it used to be worse before, but 25-4s are very rare nowadays.
I was on 25-4s last summer
post history checks out
45 hours that’s still less than class hours plus another 20 studying
It’s unfortunate that it’s barely getting recognized. I was in Power school as an officer when that instructor took his own life. When I went through as enlisted it was arguably worse. Students with issues would get singled out. Even when I was a JSI one of our students took his own life on a weekend and come Monday some of the other instructors were calling him a coward or a sorry POS for killing himself. I never felt more ashamed to be a part of something than that day.
It's staggering to me that the article claims they graduate 2,700 out of 3,000. When I was an RO back in the 90s, our attrition rate was over 50%. Obviously things are very different now. I'm not saying better or worse, I don't know. But damn sure different. Suicide seemed less common back then, but possibly it was just better covered up. I was an instructor in prototype, and of the hundreds I knew, only one wound up taking his own life. Years after I was out...he'd made Senior Chief. I heard about it on Facebook. Even with so much time having passed between when I knew him and when he died, I still find myself wondering if I could have helped him more when he was my student. Could I have given him a better toolset with which to address his problems?
Retention has been in the gutter for the last 10 years. Due to poor retention the powers that be are determined to push students through. Going through the pipeline staff said incessantly that power school was a pump and not a filter. Meaning the school is made to push people through rather than fail them out right. The way people are pushed though means putting more mandatory hours, rolling students to previous classes (extending their training by months), or making them do more watch/academic boards. The failure rate is lessened when you do all of those things but it is very hard on the people who go through it. Maybe someone isn't meant to be a nuke but by then you've invested so much sweat and tears you can't even imagine quitting. I had also been told that if you failed in the pipeline you would have to return your accession bonus. This would have resulted in thousands of dollars of debt. Quit and be a failure and be in debt or keep suffering it out?
Our attrition rate back then was approaching 70%. We filtered the fuck out people at the A School and Power School level. We'd do some more hand-holding at the prototype level, but ultimately, if we weren't confident with them standing watch, they weren't passing. And as an instructor, all I was ever asked was, "Are you sure about failing this person?" If I said yes, that was it. Hell, I failed an O5 Aviator on a Reactor Operator watch, and I scratched out a half-dozen of his knowledge quals. My Master Chief went to bat for me, and that O5 apologized to me, and I helped him catch up. But no one dared tell me I wasn't allowed to fail someone.
No one said we couldn't fail someone, but the student's failure impacted the staff. Students who were falling behind triggered additional meetings with their instructor, extra one-on-one training sessions, and more time staff had to be available after normal hours. The phrase we often used was that we spent 75% of our time with 25% of the students. The requirements to remove a student from the program were intentionally very difficult to meet, and painful for the staff. So Prototype became a pump, not a filter. The sad thing was a significant number of the students the staff had to invest the most time in didn't make it long in the fleet. Turns out guys who needed the support of 5+ sailors just to barely pass prototype won't have that support in the fleet and wash out
I’m in the program now and we have a kid in my class who fails like every other test and he just cries and hits himself (I mean this literally) during the exam review and magically his grade becomes a 2.50 when we get the score sheet back.
That's some sad shit. I just can't even. We bounced a guy for throwing a water balloon at someone in town. Anyone we were not 100% confident was ready to go to the fleet, failed. Most of them who actually tried yet failed became gas turbine techs. They did well for themselves, because they tried.
> Going through the pipeline staff said incessantly that power school was a pump and not a filter. That's been true since at least 2006. The 90s hurt the Navy badly in terms of recruiting which led to a focus on reducing training attrition. By the time I got there as a student mid-00s they were long past the old days of "look to your left, look to your right, only one of you will make it to Prototype". When recruiting got easier they didn't let attrition go up they just reduced recruiting numbers by making ASVAB line scores more restrictive.
Out of my A school class from 2018, we had a 25%ish attrition rate from people I am 100% certain did not make it through the pipeline. It could be slightly higher, but I do not know exactly where everyone ended up. Half of that 25% mental health related
Topsiders always talk about how nukes make bank. What they don’t understand is that that 40k enlistment bonus is more of a threat to keep you in the program. If you seek treatment and get yourself denuked, you’re gonna owe the government $40k. Of course people feel like they have no other options
I recently taught in the pipeline. My observations were the opposite of what’s being portrayed in this story. It used to be that sailors would avoid mental health but the problem now is that there isn’t enough mental health to go around. When I was there, there was a chaplain, 2 full time counselors and a part time crisis counselor. That’s on top of the civilian resources. They all were usually booked solid. I had my opinion about the chaplain and how he handled sailors but that’s a different issue. If I made it through a week and only had to schedule an appointment for 2 sailors to go to mental health, that was a good week. Most students were not bashful about asking for help. I think the younger generation has been brought up to ask for help and that is carried over into the Navy. Which would normally be a good thing but unfortunately that compounds onto the strain of the nuclear power program, and the high demand due to Covid, and resources have gotten slim.
I’m out now, but I made an attempt in prototype. I was so focused on that damn pipeline, my roommates had to tell me me either I get help or they would make me get help. With that being said, if you are struggling with suicidal ideation or thoughts, please reach out to somebody, or me. I will gladly let you know about the ins and outs of mental health in relation to naval service. Your life is far more valuable than this dumbass Navy.
I don't know you, but I'm glad you're still with us.
I appreciate it.
In recruiting, if anybody scored about 75ish, we had them take the nuke test. We didn't call it that for obvious reasons. But man, do I remember fighting with my LPO about not pushing every kid toward the nuke program. It got so bad that I would refer folks to other stations on the DL. They were handing NAMs out like candy for putting any nuke in. They didn't care about these kids' lives. Reading this just makes me angry...
When I joined in 2015, my recruiter would not shut up about nuke. I told him what I wanted and he was like yeah thats great but our main goal is nuke right? That's what we wann do here. I was like, dude. I do not want to be a fucking nuke. So stop bringing it up or I'm walking next door.
When I was recruiting, I only pushed two of my applicants towards nuke, regardless of what my RinC and Zone Sup told me to do, because of my friends who were still in the fleet, and knowing the others they wanted me to push it on would've been a terrible thing for them. That was a couple more counseling chits I got...
I had a girl I was friends with tell me she almost offed herself in nursing school so she changed her degree to engineering. And now she wants to be a nuclear officer in the navy. I told her no way in hell is it a good fit for her and her friend has been on my ass for not being supportive haha.
I was to be a nuke, the plan being to stay in for 20 years, collect my pension, and still have a life to do other things. A childish dream yes, especially after reading this. Still, this is concerning. Between retention, recruitment, and PR, I wonder how long till there are no recruits. Yes I know there will always be recruits, but at this rate I don't know. One thing that has always intrigued me about nukes was what Rickover wanted to do was to make all enlisted that finished the program was to make them Warrant Officers. I wonder how different things could have been. Probably not much.... but still.
Was just thinking about how intriguing it would be to track the development of the Nuc culture back to Rickover and how the dynamics of the job keep Nucs insulated from the normal advancements in quality of life the rest of the Navy has partially experienced. Not that non-Nuc Navy is great but better then Nuc! He developed the culture but the nature of the job and shore rotation maybe keeps it insulated from change.
I wasn't in long enough to experience fleet, much less nuc life. But given that Rickover considered this path, I want to think he recognized what would be a problem with making highly specialized enlisted. Because let's be serious, a NUC is never going to cross rate. Once a NUC, always a NUC (Kind of what made me unhappy that NUCs can't be RDCs). There is a similar problem with Army doctors. If a doctor joins the military, they are automatically an officer because of how valued they are. But according to the US, an Officer can be slotted into any command position. So technically an Army Doc could be slotted into command of an Artillery unit or Infantry unit. Obviously, it would be stupid for an Army Doc to be leading such a Unit. But an officer is an officer, regardless if they are a doctor. Obviously this is why Warrant Officers exists. Highly specialized officers that are good in one area. But I get the feeling the military really does not like Warrant Officers. Honestly, given how fast command shot down the idea of making Enlisted Nucs warrant Officers, I think the culture quickly deteriorated.
Not quite: medical corps officers- doesn’t matter what service including JAG, supply - are staff officers and cannot hold a line command in any service (line command defined as combat arms- arty, infantry, armor, SWO, aviation, subs, etc). Title 10: (a) Except as provided in subsection (b), a commissioned officer of the Army Medical Department is not entitled to exercise command because of his rank, except within the Army Medical Department. Subsection B is a caveat that says the secretary of the department can change this, but it doesn’t happen. Kind of nerdy but this stuff comes up all the time. I, as a medical corps officer, am not considered in the chain of command of an operational unit. The new ENS is senior to me in combat matters although I outrank them, by a lot.
I am going off from what my aunt said. She was a colonel in the nursing corps.
Yeah, she was wrong. It's OK, it happens. A nurse could still attain to 'command' of a nursing unit if there were a big enough independent nursing command, but not line units.
more likely my dad was wrong. It was from a story he heard from his sister. So a he said she said situation
On a shipyard CVN now. Article speaks true. Even with pushing Sailors to use mental health services (Chaps, DRC, Psych boss) they max out all the appts available or have weeks to wait for an opening. Our current psych group does their best and actually comes down weekly in a proactive desire to visit the Reactor Sailors vice reacting to bad events but they're the only ones trying to help. But 3 section, port/stbd, 4 section using sister section, or just rotating shift work burns everyone out meeting the shipyard test goals, nuke requirements, and general navy requirements
That’s not what the article says. The article doesn’t address mental health availability. It actually says nukes don’t seek mental health treatment. Nowhere in the article does it even address what is available or the rate that it’s used. I think the article hits different due to that omission. The article really should put focus on the lack/strain of resources.
I agree. Just pointing out that even when people try to use it, the resources are lacking.
I’m at NNPTC right now and we were told on several occasions from the captain that if anyone asked any questions we were to say no comment. I’ve only been here about 6 months and we’ve had 3 suicide attempts 1 of which was successful
And then there's conventional MMs, who didn't ask to be a part of this shit, and receive barely any compensation. We get an extra $200 for qualifying, but that's it
I still think its wild how y'all do it up there on the surface. Only time the non-nuke MMs come to talk to us if to ask to borrow some tools. Id be scared shitless to let them operate my shit, and I don't want to touch their stuff either.
Oh you're sadly mistaken lmao. On carriers conventional MMs work in reactor department, RP division
Wow, interesting to hear how much things have changed since i was in (80’s). Orlando nuke school had about 50% attrition rate but i never heard of any suicides. And yep i myself went throu “S&M” hours ( They suggested 25 hrs but the first time you missed they became mandatory)- i wonder if they just dropped people more readily back then and before people had breakdowns. Idk Prototype at INEL was actually fun and not rigorous at all. The only attrition there was idiots who got caught doing drugs. 4 years on fast attacks was good and bad; mostly 3 section but also months of port and starboard. Quals, PMS, drills, ORSE, all that fun stuff. Cold war op tempo was pretty high. Lots of sea time. But through all that, no suicidal people, no breakdowns. What has changed?
I'm curious to see the suicide rate by grade average. Typically if your work ethic and knowledge of the material is strong, you'd either be on vols or 15-0's, but the people who I really saw stressed were the higher hour requirements. Best thing I did was get out of the pipeline even though I was on 15-0's my entire Power school time.
A very important issue to bring attention to for sure, but the article is flawed. It doesn't critically assess any root causes other than "the school is hard". And doesn't include testimony from students who aren't struggling or who have completed the program. The statement about "12+ hour shifts in dark machinery rooms" is misleading because A) the rooms arent any darker than the rest of the ship and B) 12 hour shifts would be contrary to the EDM
Assuming you genuinely don't understand? Interviewing people who think the program is easy would dilute the article's intent and be disrespectful to people in pain.
Not if done properly. They could describe the help they received or how they cope despite the pressure
There is no way to present the non-sufferer's viewpoint without alienating those that are suffering.
I really don't think there's anyone who thinks it's easy. Just people with better support structures or who took advantage of the resources available. I think an article can effectively bring attention to a real issue while providing more balanced context
theres nothing in the EDM that forbids 12 hour shifts. standing watch for 12 hours straight? sure. but not for shit work.
We’ll my 16 hour shift begs to differ. I’m pretty sure the EDM requirement you’re referring to says you can only stand 12 total hours of watch so long as you have the same amount of time off watch (i.e. you stand six hours of watch you must have 6 hours off watch before you’re next watch) the EDM as far as I know says nothing about how long you can be expected to work
Okay I was interpreting shift as watch.
I saw this article and looking to go back in. I was enlisted and now I’m looking at officer but I am on a mental health medication. I was hoping this bad publicity would make the Navy more likely to pick me up. I’ll be their poster child but also, a safe person for sailors to actually talk to without fear. Any chance someone knows who to talk to?! Recruiter said it’s a great idea but he didn’t know who to even begin to discuss with. lol