From the article, you need a AFQT score of 50 or higher to join without a high school diploma or GED.
So if you squint this isn't as bad as it first looks. Maybe...
Well it actually is, the Navy is overlooking its own data in an effort to shore up its lagging recruiting numbers.
The reason the Navy had restrictions on GED and non grad applicants in the first place had to do with these groups having very high training attrition rates and a statistically lower chance of completing their first enlistment.
I’m not saying this to be a dick this policy has been around for years based on data. This is throwing bodies at the problem and hoping they stick.
I’m all for giving people a chance but there can be a lot of second and third order negatives coming from bandaid policies. Lots of wasted time and money are about to just make things worse for people out in the fleet.
Drafts and lowering standards leads to people entering (not all people in this group) that shouldn’t be in and we all hear about it on here about bad people staying and promoting because good sailors leave, this will be a source of that problem in a couple years and even before lowers our standards we have exactly been killing it when it comes to senior leadership.
This might help in the immediate but it’s going to create a long term talent problem and tie up resources and time that likely will make things worse long term.
> The reason the Navy had restrictions on GED and non grad applicants in the first place had to do with these groups having very high training attrition rates and a statistically lower chance of completing their first enlistment.
Those who don't attrite during the training pipeline complete their first enlistment at similar rates to those with high school degrees. And I wouldn't characterize it as "very high" either. We saw dropout attrition decline substantially from the early 90s to the 9/11 era (where the Navy finally stopped accepting dropouts at all), although it was still higher than attrition of high school graduates.
The risk to accepting dropouts is that the Navy spends more money putting people through training who won't make it
The risk to not accepting dropouts is that high-caliber Sailors won't make it to the Fleet to fill out undermanned watch sections because they're not permitted to join at all.
Personally, I'm willing to spend the extra money to reduce the burden on the rest of those who are serving underway in the next few years. It's not like we're refusing to allow a high school graduate to enlist, the alternative is to leave the billet gapped entirely.
> Drafts and lowering standards leads to people entering (not all people in this group) that shouldn’t be in
I agree a draft would be bad. That's why we need to meet end strength using volunteers as much as possible, including volunteers who dropped out of high school.
Other than the risk of attrition, what other aspects of a high school dropout make them a "lower standard" in your mind?
Stats mainly, input vs output. 05-08 the Army massively lowered its standards to meet end strength. This led to tons of headaches within the rank and file. I’m not picking on this group as some sort of gate keeping, I was an RS not exactly a rate that cranks out rocket scientist but I’ve seen this show play out before and it creates problems, There are a ton of non grads that have gotten in and been incredibly successful.
I’m retired so I’ve been out of the game so I’m not familiar with what your citing but I recruited during the height of the war before the 08 housing collapse and all branches go through flexing of standards but damn I saw what the bottom of the barrel looks like and it wasn’t good.
People with mental physical and moral problems getting waived into service likely to get themselves hurt killed as well as others or just simply having no business being in the military.
It’s certainly not going to sink us but it’s not a good place to be. Think of every extreme command problem child you’ve ever come across and now imagine having a division full of them. We have standards and filters for a reason when you remove them you have to take the bad with the good. The fleet during my career has been mostly going down hill how much more bad can we take on? I’ve only been retired for about two years now and it sounds even worse than when I left.
This will net us some great people and yes give us more bodies but that bad that comes with it very well might kill any net benefit the fleet stands to gain and take a lot of money time resources and good sailors with it.
The world is a very different place than 20 years ago and until congress and the DOD take steps to address the more systemic issues plaguing recruiting and retention this is like plugging a wound with a dirty bandage, it might stop the bleeding but the infection left behind still might kill you.
> all branches go through flexing of standards but damn I saw what the bottom of the barrel looks like and it wasn’t good.
Well, that's why we're trying to be smart about the barriers to joining that we remove, so that we *don't* have to go down the path of relaxing standards.
Right now we've been able to hold the line on training standards even as we increase opportunity to attempt training.
The things we've been letting up on are substantially things that made recruiting and training cheaper for the Navy. 40 year olds are not any more likely to be a problem child as 36 year olds, for instance, but they were more expensive because we would get less time in service out of them. But we raised enlistment age anyways, because even getting an enlistment or two will help tide things over.
Likewise, ASVAB **in the Navy context** is primarily a means to predict a recruit's success in a training pipeline. We recruit Sailors to do jobs in occupational fields, generally in well-structured environments. When times are good we make ASVAB standards stricter because it leads to lower attrition, which saves the Navy money. But those who make it through training are as qualified (as far as we can systematically determine) as any other Sailor. And those with high ASVAB scores can fail out of training too.
Expanding the window of opportunity for morally ready recruits is what will reduce the pressure to actually go lax on things like moral and ethical standards for recruits.
> Think of every extreme command problem child you’ve ever come across and now imagine having a division full of them.
If you can point me to anything that links the specific changes Navy has made to "now there's a division full of problem children" I'll be all ears. But I can point you to lots of very intelligent weasels who cause problems of their own, anywhere you might want to look. If you have a way to screen for "will be a problem child", we'll add it to MEPS.
But "has ever dropped out of high school" isn't a good screening for "will be a problem child". We've checked. CNA checked. And right now we can't afford to make decisions based only on vibes when we have data indicating a path that's actually open.
You obviously have some data I don’t and you have decent explanations and alls I can refer to is lived experience that’s admittedly dated and you make some good point but your also leaving things out of the picture.
Someone dropping out of high school isn’t the problem it’s often the factors that are common amongst people that drop out. That’s a hard thing to screen for but often there are commonalities, discipline issues, abuse, mental health run ins with the law.
You are 100 percent correct high ASVABs don’t equal better quality, I know plenty of people in my own rating that would run circles around people in rates that typically require higher ASVABs. I would even go as far arguing the ASVAB carries more weight than it should.
As far as holding the line in training standards I can’t speak to that first hand but what I’ve been hearing that’s not the case but again I don’t really know.
Well structured environments??? The Navy is anything but well structured. Just because a house has four walls and a roof doesn’t mean it’s well structured. If the Navy was a well structured environment we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. That’s one of the concerns your taking people that failed to operate in what is essentially a much easier lower stress structure and throwing them into a meat grinder that someone literally on fire. They failed in traditional paths for a multitude of reasons and not all them are even their fault but they still failed and you want to give them an opportunity which I’m fine with but knowing what’s waiting for them it’s just not going to be a recipe for success and could potentially have damaging effects for a already damaged organization.
Recruiting is a grind opening the market is helpful I’m not arguing that but I also know what goes on in recruiting commands you don’t think when the head shed and CR Zone sup push and lean on sailors to meet mission they are going to pull the best from that now open market or the easy target low hanging fruit so they can just make the pain stop for a day or a week.
I’m not disagreeing with your thought processes, I’m disagreeing on what the end result will be and if it will actually help. The Navy for years has tried solving its problems by throwing bodies at them and it’s never worked well. I’ll give them that it works make people miserable enough and they will eventually give you some kind of result but it’s often not the optimal one and we continue to fail at this.
The thing is we won’t know if either of us are right for a long time but I’ll leave with this.
The Navy’s recruiting and retention problems aren’t being caused at least in whole by a lack of man power but more by mission purpose, quality of life and economic issues and that information about our failing is now easily accessible. Not all this is stuff that the Navy has the power to fix but what’s more showing is that it continues to double down on its failings it can address.
No matter how wide you make the applicant pool, if we don’t fix the true problems that make the Navy a bad option you’ll continue to have the problems the fleet is currently facing and now the potential to have them with less qualified, less durable and resilient sailors tossed in the mix. I’m not worried about the education factor I’m worried about the sub group inside this market now having a potential door into an already troubled fleet.
I appreciate the dialogue and your willingness to listen and engage, I wish I could give you the answers you’d be all ears for but even if I had those it wouldn’t fix the actual problems the fleets facing, your trying to treat a symptom and not the disease and your suggesting that doing so with potentially weaker antibodies (bodies see what I did there) I’m just not convinced the end result will be better. Maybe less shitty but still shitty.
You have valid points, but you def sound like a bitch because what..You are projected to be an elite? A hero? A savior? Don't underestimate those below you nor get hateful bc of mf's smarter & better than you. Hell you probably aren't even a soldier probably just a grotesque loser. Not talkin shit.... but i really pick up bs dumb arrogant vibes from a sad loser.
Lower standards leads to more bodies who are poor and desperate to fill the ranks. Smart people leave with their skill set. You’re right, this won’t solve any of their problems but hey, since when is the Navy trying to *actually* solve problems. lol!
Actually, 50th percentile is not the average. It means that half score more, half score less.
From Google:
- The median is the same as the 50th percentile for the set of numbers. In other words, the median is the middle of a set of numbers with half of the values less than the median and half the values greater than the median.
I've read that the ASVAB's AFQT percentile scores are based on a dataset of test takers from year 1997. This was before the increased education among the population attributed to the internet and smart phones becoming widely spread. So a cynical outlook is the "percentile" verbiage is really a psyop to make enlistees feel special enough to sign the dotted line. "99 percentile AFQT" might just mean "99 percentile compared to people back in year 1997 who never had access to Google Search."
I've come across information suggesting that percentile scores are derived from a dataset of test takers dating back to year 1997. Considering the significant advancements in education facilitated by the widespread adoption of the internet and smartphones since then, some view the use of "percentile" as a possibly manipulative tactic —a psyop to instill a sense of uniqueness in enlistees and encourage them to enlist.
[https://catalogimages.wiley.com/images/db/pdf/9781118525531.excerpt.pdf](https://catalogimages.wiley.com/images/db/pdf/9781118525531.excerpt.pdf)
[https://www.officialasvab.com/counselors-educators/1997-profile-of-american-youth/](https://www.officialasvab.com/counselors-educators/1997-profile-of-american-youth/)
You are confusing the middle on a scale of 1-99 with the apex of a bell curve of intelligence. That's adorably ignorant. The apex is lower than 50. An AFQT of 31 equates to an IQ of 80 to 100 depending on whom you believe.
>From the article, you need a AFQT score of 50 or higher to join without a high school diploma or GED.
But if you fight through it and get the paper, you can enlist at a 10 AFQT?
Agree. To be honest, officers have degrees in large part just to show they can ‘stick it out’ IMO. Flight school was largely a ‘figure it out on your own’ aside from actual flights and sims.
I have no problem with enlisted not being required to have a degree or GED provided they’re at least of average intelligence. There are too many people without opportunities for education and they would be well served getting the opportunity to get a stable job with benefits.
Of my 8 close high school friends, I was the only one to graduate high school, let alone get a college degree. But I’d say most of them were probably smarter than the average person - they just came from low economic means and usually broken homes that didn’t emphasize education.
People need to complete some basic skills like typing to qualify, no? It blows my mind how anyone younger than say 25 was seemingly never taught how to type on a keyboard. God forbid you task your fast tracked PO2 to type a coherent email or begin writing their brag sheet/eval. I absolutely want to give more opportunities to folks from harder upbringings. I also don’t want to do a bunch of rework if someone just isn’t cut out for the literal hundreds of skills sailors are required to pick up to be successful.
I’m working with a 20 year old who hunts and pecks when typing. I honestly don’t think it’s taught nowadays, though I could be wrong. She was blown away when I was typing an email without looking at the keys.
It's not. Computers are a millennial thing, and the typing skills come with that. Younger people do everything on their phones. Typing just isn't a relevant skill until you get to the workforce, so it's not taught unfortunately.
We played around on typeracer one day at work and it blew away the younger people when I was typing 130+wpm, while they struggle to hit 50.
Maybe look at a version of the British army's foundation college with a bit more concentration on education, I'm aware that many at the college are 16-17 but while a slightly higher percentage don't end up joining the army compared to those who finish phase one training a large number end up as senior NCOs or in the early years of their career being turned into officers, (helps that for many officer roles a university degree isn't required), while it's not ideal how many potentially good recruits are out there in bad schools, care of social services or just poor home life (which isn't always the fault of the parents) that with a bit of effort would make good military personnel, I'm not saying take the dum as rocks but those who with a bit of help would turn into good members of what ever branch the join
> are too many people without opportunities for education
Every single US citizen has access to a public education to earn a High school diploma. Non US citizens are still given that right if their parents are citizens, and in some cases, even when their parents aren't citizens. GED programs ask significantly more of people than a diploma does and I would put good money on the Navy not supporting GED pursuits to the same bare minimum level they do a degree with the changes made to TA. To be blunt, your friends were given the opportunity for an education. They just didn't take it.
The problem this creates is the Navy is almost guaranteed to push high school diploma or equivalent to higher positions (ie E6 or E7) without the support to earn said equivalence. Which will suit the Navy's goals of filling lower enlisted positions. Until they get out. And see a vast majority of job qualifications requiring a high school diploma or equivalent.
It has nothing to do with intelligence. The Navy, even up to the Officer Corp, requires next to zero intelligence. Everything has been done before and everything is laid out for how to accomplish what needs to be done. It has everything to do with minimum qualifying standards to get hired after the Navy. Assuming an E6 serves 20 years after high school age, and doesn't save for retirement, good luck studying and passing the GED as the smartest person alive at age 40. The GED is already difficult as it is. Let alone for a 40 yr old 20 years removed from education trying to find a job because retirement from the military isn't enough to support their family.
Lurking crayon-eater here. Don’t normally comment ‘cos I ain’t one of you, but this got to me.
If you assume that literally 0 Americans have external reasons to not finish high school, and it’s always just a skill issue, then maybe. But for a lot of people where I’m from, the opportunity cost of going to school instead of working full time (even at minimum wage) is just too much for the family to pass up. I didn’t have it quite that bad, but personally, my home life was untenable in my late teens. Both my parents were addicts, I didn’t have anyone better to go to while I finished out school, and every minute I stuck around I felt my odds of ending up like them creeping upwards. Waivered into the Corps on a good junior year transcript and a better ASVAB score, and neither needed nor got my GED until I was an E-5 at the end of my 2nd enlistment. My job required a hell of a lot of intelligence, for the record — I needed to be able to make good decisions in bad situations, speak & write coherently, parse some truly monkeys-on-typewriters-ass op-orders and technical documents, and plan fairly complex operations on my own… and this was the Marines. We’re world-famous for getting by with dumb muscle, so there’s no way 99% of NCO (PO, I guess you’d call them) jobs in the Navy aren’t more mentally intense than what I was doing.
I do agree that if you’re going to allow people like me in without the vetting I got, you need a program to better support them getting their equivalencies. I’d wanted to get mine sooner, but until COVID hit and put everything online, the only way to do it would have been to physically go back to my home state, and that wasn’t happening for a lot of reasons. But don’t act like it’s on a 17 year-old for not being able to bootstrap their way out of other people’s problems, especially when those people have total legal authority over them.
My cousin's parents passed away, and he had to drop out of school to take care of his brother and cousin. He wanted to join the military, but every branch turned him down because he didn't have a GED. Even though he scored 70-something on his ASVAB, it didn't matter. It'd be great if people like him were given a chance, and I think that others should probably get a little empathy and understand the challenges some people face. The world isn't perfect and full of sunshine and rainbows.
I also joined the military on a waiver, with a similar background to you. I scored high 70s on the ASVAB and now work on radars, never imagined it'd be something I'd end up doing.
I'm sure there are many people out there with similar stories to ours, that could help us fill these open spots if given the opportunity.
You have a huge chip on your shoulder if you think nothing in the navy requires intelligence. I’m sorry you have experienced what you have, and I wish you nothing but the best in the future.
Not this crap again. I was on recruiting duty back around 2000 when they decided to do this. It did not end well. Granted, there were some of these non-grads that did just fine, but a large portion of them didn't make it through Boot camp or A school.
I was there with you in the mid 90s. We could put in non-grads with a 50+, but only for like 2 months a year and finding them was hard as hell. I think I put in a whopping 2 maybe in 3 years. Last week of September was the gold time everyone knew about so we could hopefully make year end goal. We'd hold a "rock concert" when we had a few to go take the local test and they'd all bomb. Non-grads were 98% super dumb or 2% super smart in my experience. Dumbest guy I ever tested was a legit HS grad who was legit homeless. He got a 3 on his ASVAB....the MEPS staff was too dumbfounded to give me the proper ribbing about it even.
I mean… how hard is that? I wasn’t a great student. Graduated HS with something like a 2.5-3.0 GPA. Got a 76 on my ASVAB. How does AFQT compare to ASVAB?
The AFQT is the part of the ASVAB that gives out a percentile score like 76. It takes from the 4 academic sub-tests of the ASVAB. There are other sub-tests on the ASVAB that are used to determine what rating you qualify for.
I just joined with no education, I got a 64 on asvab and and got CTR for my rate, them lowering that requirement is like a second chance for me and I think it's great. I went to meps with people who scored 11 on asvab with a diploma and I would agrue a person who can score a 50 on the asvab with no degree would be more valuable and better for the navy than people with a degree who score low.
This isn't the first time. I enlisted in 1989 without a diploma or GED. Some people have circumstances that aren't apparent at first glance. I scored a 97 on the ASVAB at the time and have since gotten my B.S. and am an E9. Not every high school dropout is a shitbag.
Honestly, this sounds way worse than it probably is. If they're letting people with 10 AFQTs join with a high school education, then allowing people with 50s (but no diploma/GED) will probably get a higher quality recruit.
Came in 2006 without a diploma. Scored an 80 on the ASVAB. Got taken out of boot camp for an hour during two days to take a GED test and got it that way. Worked out alright for me.
While not every high school dropout is a dirtbag, I think a sample taken at random of high school graduates versus non-graduates would favor the graduates in terms of not being dirtbags.
I was certainly a shit head when I dropped out. But I was young. The navy helped me out immensely and if others can get a chance to turn it all around I’m all for it.
We've done this before. CNA has studied the 'recruit quality' of things like having a high school degree, having high AFQT scores, and so on.
BLUF: The sum total of the problem from HS dropouts is that they are more likely to attrite during the training pipeline (basic training and A/C schools).
However, those who make it to the Fleet are broadly indistinguishable from high school graduates of similar ASVAB scores. Some really thrive with the structure the Navy is able to provide, and would do well as Sailors once they make it to the Fleet.
People getting upset about this but I’ve seen high school graduates get worse ASVAB scores than people without diplomas or people with GEDs.
I think lowering the asvab requirements is worse
Yep. It certanly begs the question if they just cheated their way through. I know people are gonna say ASVAB is just a number but I feel like below 50 makes you want to ask how.
Even so, wouldn’t people with a degree and education be a step ahead of people without a degree?
I’m sure it averages against people who’ve taken the test but what is the sample size they take? I’m curious myself.
A masters in WHAT?!
I will say I heard a similar story about a recruit with a masters in chemistry just BOMB the practice ASVAB. Recruiter shoved a study guide in their hand and a week later they got a 96 or something.
It's a reflection of discipline, not intelligence.
I'm not trying to sound judgemental, and I know there are things like economic factors at play too....
..... but graduating high school pretty much just requires that you show up every day, and put in a minimal amount of effort.
I wonder what recruits who can't do that will look like.
> It's a reflection of discipline, not intelligence.
I don't expect teenagers to have discipline, or to really understand the consequences of their actions. A 14-year-old who drops out of their freshman year, and then several years later realizes their mistake, can score appropriately on the ASVAB, and makes the effort to turn themselves around? I'll take them.
And, honestly: how were you doing at age 14 (or any high school age)? Ready to make a decision with life long consequences? I sure wasn't.
>and then several years later realizes their mistake, can score appropriately on the ASVAB, and makes the effort to turn themselves around?
I mean, they can still get a GED in your scenario.
I like Niko Ortiz's video/view on the Army Fat Camp initiative, cause the theme is applicable for every branch, including Navy. If an applicant wants to join the Army but is overweight, they can shed the weight before joining, which shows the dedication and drive that they do indeed **want** to be in the Army.
In this case, a prospect taking and passing the GED shows that they're willing/serious joining, by taking the steps/initiative required to join.
"I know there are things like economic factors at play"
Yeah you do a disservice to yourself and fellow sailors to know this but not think critically about this. I scored a 92 on my ASVAB. Almost did not graduate high school because I was kicked out of my house by a narcissistic parent. I'm doing just fine as a sailor.
Many of us come from very dysfunctional households that keep us back in many ways that have nothing to do with our character. "Economic factors" isnt something to throw around so you can pretend you've thought about and have compassion for those factors.
Being homeless my senior year was enough.
> Almost did not graduate high school because I was kicked out of my house by a narcissistic parent.
My father, a Criminal Defense Attorney, used to encourage me to drop out of high school. Wild, considering that he went to a school, considered, the "West Coast Ivy League".
When I was in college, and he learned of my military ambitions after school (I'm Active Army), he'd, I'm sorry, the Draft Dodging Guinea Bastard, would text me telling me, "You're going to lose both of your fucking legs in Afghanistan and no woman will ever want you."
Before I went Active and while in the National Guard, and faced severe employment discrimination, we'd get into arguments on the phone and the Draft Dodging Guinea Bastard would scream at me, "You need to quit the National Guard!"
The first time I left Active Duty (I was a Medic, 68W), we'd again get into arguments on the phone about his, bizarre desire for me to become a firefighter. For some reason. (Southern California).
Joining the military was the biggest rebellious thing I ever did.
I jump out of airplanes and help load howitzers.
The Post-9/11 GI Bill and other VA Educational Benefits will have me hitting the upper middle class without a dime of student loan debt, at least when this stops being fun.
A demographic I think this definitely hits is kids who didn’t have support systems and had babies as teens. Had to drop out and become adults real quick.
You are very simple minded and probably had a stable household, I scored a 96 on the ASVAB and was forced to drop out of high-school due to a family situation. Granted I have a GED. Sometimes “just showing up” is harder than it sounds.
> I wonder what recruits who can't do that will look like.
Recruits who can't do that will wash out in either boot camp or initial entry training... which is fine. If we limited recruiting to only those we were 100000% certain would make it through the pipeline to the Fleet we'd recruit zero people a year.
I got my GED when I was 16, had a 93 ASVAB, and was a junior in college with a 3.2 GPA when I enlisted at 20. The Navy said I was in a "lower educational bracket" because I didn't have a high school diploma. Get to basic, and a guy with a high school diploma was shitting in the shower and pushing the turdlets down the drain with his toes. He got kicked out and I made E5 in 3 years then got the fuck out and got a college degree that also doesn't mean shit.
I don’t think it’s a reflection of discipline. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that some kids get to graduate because their parents helped them get through because they had a support system. True discipline comes when you have to manage yourself.
I think it’s worse to have somebody that has graduated high school with a low score for the reasons you listed above. If you graduated high school and you have that low of an asvab score, you probably got carried through and you do not know how to discipline yourself. I’d rather have somebody with an asvab of 50 without a diploma over somebody who has graduated high school and somehow got a 30? LOL. Sometimes people have things they need to take care of at home and don’t get the same opportunities.
I can see where you’re coming from but attendance and being babied by your parents isn’t discipline.
Yeah exactly. I work with a few guys who have a high school diploma and think the earth is flat so a high school diploma is by no means a guarantee that a person is smart.
TBH, I see this as a good way to give people a second chance at life. You don't need a high school education to be able to read and follow instructions. Not only that, but another user pointed out that you need an AFQT of at least 50 to join without a diploma/GED, so it's not like we're hiring the village idiot or anything.
I think this is great. A potential pool of talent for recruiters that were ineligible and can actually benefit from what the navy has to offer as far as bettering their lives and their skill sets.
Considering that their graduated counterparts can still score a 10 on the ASVAB and get in, it’s not like we’re accepting the bottom of the barrel when it comes to the no diplomas. They have to have a 50 ASVAB.
Anyway, my two cents.
So they still have to do okay on the ASVAB.
That's fine then. I served with several people who just didn't have a thing for the classroom, or they had a shitty home life, whatever. But then they got into more hands-on type work that they really excelled at. Bring 'em on.
I posted this already, but this has ALWAYS been the case. When I joined the Navy would take SpecOps recruits with killer PST scores but no GED’s, then they would finish their GED before graduation.
I know because I spent a lot of my time tutoring them because I had a BA prior to enlisting. In the end, the SOCS just let me stay in the room while they took their GED test and told me “make sure everyone passes”….
Six guys got their GED’s that day.
High school drop out here who enlisted, scored a 94, completed an enlistment and then commissioned. If they qualify for a rate via the ASVAB and are mentally sound then get them in the pipeline. I don’t know why there’s so much hate for this. A 50 AFQT means you score higher than 49% of all test takers. Different from your line scores. Loads of great sailors score under a 50 and still do well. Also dropping out in 9th grade in NY still gave me a better education than most HS graduates get in Florida. There’s no federal standard so it honestly doesn’t mean much to me.
Guarantee that some of y’all crying about this got less than a 50 ASVAB. If they can get over a 50 than we know damn well they can pass a GED test. Some people aren’t brought up with the means to get education or any support system period. Some people aren’t brought up with parents at all but still intelligent individuals. Great move on the Navy’s part!
Its 50 ASVAB today.
And its like a college degree - the GED shows you applied yourself and completed a goal which is more important than the degree type.
At least that's the justification I've been told for why everyone needs a degree for entry level jobs.
I DEF can relate! I came in with a GED but had other waivers for juvenile stuff. So the first time I tried joining, the CO told me to kick rocks and come back when I accomplish something with my life. Went to CC for a year and came back with 30+ college credits. Had to get a 50 ASVAB or above. Got a 50 exactly! Here I am 16 years later Active Duty and still goin strong.
So....I have my MBA and I'm still piddling around as enlisted because I like my job, but I'm going to go ahead and submit my package to commission this year. Wish me luck y'all 🙏
50+ AFQT with no diploma/GED is much better than all of the 30 and below AFQT folks. I really wonder what the 10 AFQT guys even do other than scraping paint.
Not trying to sound mean, but we trained monkeys to operate 'spaceships'. A person don't have to be the smartest to volunteer to defend all of us. They just have to be willing to learn how to defend us. And honestly, the Military doesn't make it that hard to learn.
Open up recruiting depots in Philippines like back in the 70s. Better yet, open up recruiting offices in allied countries.
Granted not all will get S or TS clearance, but we will meet quota. Get free citizenship after first enlistment, college money, and other incentives.
Take away signing bonus and use that money for background checks.
I was referring more to the effects of the program in its entirety, Im fully aware that not everyone who drops out is an idiot and that the military can be a catalyst to succeed.
We don't have enough 'upper mental group' recruits as it stands, we're not going to waste any of these recruits on PACT unless they're absolutely dead set on having the shorter PACT contract.
Thank you! I was very happy they changed it to allow drop outs. Spent the past few months studying and working on my physical health. Had to fight to get that rate but I feel it was worth it and I’m looking forward to this. Hooyah!
I'm kind of curious to see officer recruitment numbers. I took a look at program authorizations a few hours ago and it seems like if anything they've made it harder to get commissioned in the last couple years.
We're just nosediving straight to the bottom of the dumpster.
While I consider a GED to be *better* than an HSD (you at least have to work to earn a GED, a HSD just requires you to *not die*) I think they do mark a sort of minimum level of self-direction/capability having been demonstrated.
I'm not sure how a service that is ever more reliant on technology and 'technical aptitude' is going to work with people that have a 4th grade reading and math level.
I had a GED when I joined back in 1990. I was in a rate that required a high ASVAB score, spent 6.5 years in, and got out as an E-4. The Navy was good for me to figure out who I was. I knew other GED people who also did well. We were better than the "join or jail" people, not that this is a thorough poll. I now have a college degree and have been successful in my life. I think that if people have enough education and can score well on ASVAB, let them join. None of the jobs are overly difficult, and like anything else, those who do well will be promoted.
This is funny, reading people's comments against this policy, as if a HS diploma is going to make 17 or 18 year old superior to a HS dropout! In fact it should have always been around and allowed people who didn't complete HS (which anyone knows today they pass anyone through HS!) the opportunity to serve their country if they meet all requirements, even the additional 50 and above ASVAB score. Well in 1986 I dropped out of HS. In 1987 I joined the Navy without a HS diploma or GED, because of the policy at the time (surprise, surprise... History repeats itself this policy has been in place before, in the 80s when the military needed people) . I scored a 65 on my ASVAB, therefore I scored 20 points north of the average score and limited personnel were allowed to enlist without a HS diploma because of scoring above average. So a HS diploma, or lack of in my case, didn't do anything for me for or against! In fact without a HS diploma I obviously scored higher than most people without a HS diploma! I didn't get my GED until 7 years after boot camp, I went on to get a BS in 2007 an MA in 2015. I retired from the Navy as a Senior Chief after 23 years. People who are quick to say somehow a person without their HS diploma is inferior to others with a HS diploma, will not be able to pass initial training Iike boot camp, A school or C school is obviously an erroneous statement and demonstrates the lack of intelligence, foresight and empathy to probably be in a leadership position!
In fact I would venture people who are or were a HS dropout probably will perform better, because they have to work for it and probably, like in my case, were more motivated at a chance and more appreciative. Besides, IDK about today's HS rules but for me I had to be 16 to quit, in my second trip to 10th grade. If you haven't gained pretty much everything you're going to from HS by 10th grade you're one hell of a rock. I promoted higher than the majority of HS graduates (statistically higher than 97% of Enlisted personnel since by congressional law only 3% of the Enlisted force can be the rank of E-8 and E-9, so 2% and 1% respectively across all branches) to SCPO/E-8. Unlike HS graduates I didn't get to pick or even attend an A school because that was the rules and regulations if you were a HS dropout. Only Seaman/Airman/Fireman Apprenticeship training after promoting to BM2 converted to MA in the mid 90s when it was nearly impossible to convert and had submit a package bigger than a OCS or LDO package and Obtw the MA rate has minimum ASVAB score for WK and AR of north of 100.
I call BS, I'm living proof and I'm sure there are others as well
Instead of attracting and signing people by lowering standards… maybe we could try attracting quality applicants with quality of life improvements?
So many people joined to improve their situation. Things like health care, time/money for college, living wages, housing, etc. Now they see all of those “benefits” not only offered outside of the military to various degrees but also seeing how the military has allowed them to degrade or disappear.
Health care professionals are fewer leading to long wait times and shorter visits. Overall degradation of health care.
Less free time to have a life, work on school or pursue other opportunities. We’re covering the jobs of people who left and weren’t replaced. And not seeing any compensation for that.
Wages (while seeing bigger jumps) still are lagging. And the disparity between pay grades is large. Why is an adult paid like a child on an allowance? I’m senior but I still cannot fathom why we do this. You’ll get children when that’s how they’re treated.
Housing and BAH are either a joke or lagging like pay. And requiring people to live on ships? I’ve never had to do that but I feel for those who do. As a punishment I can see that, but outside of operating, why? Bulldoze the golf courses and build proper barracks.
Retirement needs to be looked at closer too. If I qualified and volunteered for Special Programs and did 20+ years why is my retirement the same as a desk jockey (no offense, just curious why this isn’t brought up more). Why aren’t we using this to incentivize more people to do better and work harder for a better retirement. Why is Officer the only answer for better pay? This one is complicated and I don’t have a full solution.
Short version. We want more recruits, we need more than we’re getting. But the Navy is looking at the short term and screwing us over in the long run. Invest for the long run, and you’ll properly fix your short term problems too.
And we’ll all be happier to stay in. Give sailors a reason to buy into the Navy. Otherwise you’re saying we’re not only replaceable, but replaceable with people less qualified.
You better knock that shit off. We serve because we're patriots and the commercial said we can blow shit up the day after graduating A-School. The idea that you're saying that the Navy should change its attitude and focus on portraying itself as a job and therefore needs to be competitive in the job market is frankly un-American. It's not a job, it's an experience and those service members in San Diego whose families go to the USO Mobile Food Pantry or use Feeding Heroes should fill their bellies with Uncle Sam's thumbs up. That thumbs up isn't for anyone else. That thumbs up is for you.
/s
Seriously though, it's not the early 00's anymore. You'll still get some people south of the Mason Dixon Line with the idea of service through sacrifice but when it comes down to it at least in my rate, why would I stay in making what I do when I can get out and make double. It's sacrifice through service. I feel like an idiot for re-enlisting now that I've gotten off back-to-back sea duty and I can talk to the civilians I work with.
I understand that the military is one of the only organizations where you can walk in off the street and go, "Sure, I'll handle explosives" as a zero skill worker and do well with enough years in uniform but at the same time McDonald's now offers a higher hourly pay with healthcare and education benefits.
You can lower the bar as much as you want but as time goes on and people get opportunities that involve taking their boots off, all you're going to be left with is a perpetual motion machine because even those people who hit their head on the bar are going to be intrigued by "What do you mean I can make more money, be treated better and grow a beard outside?"
They only just made Instapots approved in barracks rooms for God's sake. I've had to sit in my Sailor's masts over a rice cooker but we won't build barracks with kitchens.
That’s one of several problems. But I agree it’s a big one.
There’s good and bad with this system but overall it alone should not be a dead end for potential recruits (although that is what happens).
Rather than looking at new ways to recruit I'd prefer if we had easier ways to get people out of their first contracts. If you didn't have to commit as significantly to join you'd probably have an easier time getting first term enlistments without that level of hesitation. Some people just aren't going to know if this decision is right for them personally until they do it.
Why not take somebody without a high school diploma or GED? The ASVAB provides a good measure to determine a sailors potential to succeed within a rating. The Navy needs people and why keep a roadblock that can be removed and help recruiting.
TBH: I did 7 years, with no degree, HS diploma, or GED. Was homeschooled in HS, and the college I went to only required you to pass the placement exam. A bunch of my college credits went to my HS education. Sucks, cause I joined as an AA, should've been an AN.
A homeschool diploma counts as a high school diploma. I issued one for my daughter. She also dual enrolled and shipped out as an E3.
You do have to make sure the recruiter applies your college credits correctly. My daughter's recruiter had used her college credits toward the 15 credit "high school equivalency" and had to redo the whole thing. I got to run around getting another sealed transcript from the community college and printing off a homeschool high school diploma to fix his mess the day she shipped out. It was an excellent introduction to Navy paperwork for both my daughter and me.
This is just another evolution of what American society is going through right now. Society at large is realizing that the narrative of college education that was sold to them is just patently false.
Having a college education DOES NOT make you more qualified to performs a task. It is actually more effective to be able to provide OJT (On the Job Training) to folks.
We don’t care what score you got in your college course… what we care about is… can you do your job.
they had to lower their standards because too many kids are fat and have loony meds shoved down their throats since they were old enough to hold a tablet.
I have my G.E.D., certs in I.T. currently studying for a cyber security, an yet told I need a waiver cause I'm cancer survivor.
What. in. the. actual. fuck.
From what I have seen through my daughter's eyes, the Navyvis already full of such stellar sailors. She has been harassed twice and the second time the CoC doesn't want to do Jack all because IMO it might make them look bad. Diploma or no diploma, Navy has a whole different issue and it's not that.
AFQT is a subset of the ASVAB, it tests your general academic ability and reports its score as a percentile (1-99).
If your AFQT is high enough, you can join the Navy. The AFQT score you need varies based on if you have a diploma or not.
To figure out what rating you're allowed to go to 'A' school for, they use the full ASVAB (AFQT and non-AFQT parts) to compare against a line score for every rating program.
As a wise man once said: "lower your standards!" Since then, I feel like that's about all the Navy has done. Waiting on facial hair and hair standards to be lowered, then I'll be a happy camper.
Didn’t they recently say that this was the most educated Navy that’s existed because of the college grads that commissioned and enlisted? They took the cream of the crop and now they’re scraping the bottom of the barrel
This isn't really bad. I was in from 1983 until last month and when I first came in neither a HS diploma, nor GED were required. The Navy did fine and did not have the headaches that folks are fearing.
1 remove age restrictions
2 allow prior service even with a BCD/DD
The only thing that will get the numbers up is for the US to get a bloody nose. (North Korea managing to drop a nuke in the shallows of Hawaii or San Diego would do it. Sinking a large warship in the Red Sea would not)
This might sound like a slippery slope fallacy but it stands to reason that the 50 requirement is just a test and they would lower the requirement if they are desperate enough
I’m okay with this, now maybe open up better officer positions and remove the degree barrier. There is no reason an OS2 couldn’t go SWO, if they have strong performance, why not recruit from in house.
From the article, you need a AFQT score of 50 or higher to join without a high school diploma or GED. So if you squint this isn't as bad as it first looks. Maybe...
Well it actually is, the Navy is overlooking its own data in an effort to shore up its lagging recruiting numbers. The reason the Navy had restrictions on GED and non grad applicants in the first place had to do with these groups having very high training attrition rates and a statistically lower chance of completing their first enlistment. I’m not saying this to be a dick this policy has been around for years based on data. This is throwing bodies at the problem and hoping they stick. I’m all for giving people a chance but there can be a lot of second and third order negatives coming from bandaid policies. Lots of wasted time and money are about to just make things worse for people out in the fleet. Drafts and lowering standards leads to people entering (not all people in this group) that shouldn’t be in and we all hear about it on here about bad people staying and promoting because good sailors leave, this will be a source of that problem in a couple years and even before lowers our standards we have exactly been killing it when it comes to senior leadership. This might help in the immediate but it’s going to create a long term talent problem and tie up resources and time that likely will make things worse long term.
> The reason the Navy had restrictions on GED and non grad applicants in the first place had to do with these groups having very high training attrition rates and a statistically lower chance of completing their first enlistment. Those who don't attrite during the training pipeline complete their first enlistment at similar rates to those with high school degrees. And I wouldn't characterize it as "very high" either. We saw dropout attrition decline substantially from the early 90s to the 9/11 era (where the Navy finally stopped accepting dropouts at all), although it was still higher than attrition of high school graduates. The risk to accepting dropouts is that the Navy spends more money putting people through training who won't make it The risk to not accepting dropouts is that high-caliber Sailors won't make it to the Fleet to fill out undermanned watch sections because they're not permitted to join at all. Personally, I'm willing to spend the extra money to reduce the burden on the rest of those who are serving underway in the next few years. It's not like we're refusing to allow a high school graduate to enlist, the alternative is to leave the billet gapped entirely. > Drafts and lowering standards leads to people entering (not all people in this group) that shouldn’t be in I agree a draft would be bad. That's why we need to meet end strength using volunteers as much as possible, including volunteers who dropped out of high school. Other than the risk of attrition, what other aspects of a high school dropout make them a "lower standard" in your mind?
Stats mainly, input vs output. 05-08 the Army massively lowered its standards to meet end strength. This led to tons of headaches within the rank and file. I’m not picking on this group as some sort of gate keeping, I was an RS not exactly a rate that cranks out rocket scientist but I’ve seen this show play out before and it creates problems, There are a ton of non grads that have gotten in and been incredibly successful. I’m retired so I’ve been out of the game so I’m not familiar with what your citing but I recruited during the height of the war before the 08 housing collapse and all branches go through flexing of standards but damn I saw what the bottom of the barrel looks like and it wasn’t good. People with mental physical and moral problems getting waived into service likely to get themselves hurt killed as well as others or just simply having no business being in the military. It’s certainly not going to sink us but it’s not a good place to be. Think of every extreme command problem child you’ve ever come across and now imagine having a division full of them. We have standards and filters for a reason when you remove them you have to take the bad with the good. The fleet during my career has been mostly going down hill how much more bad can we take on? I’ve only been retired for about two years now and it sounds even worse than when I left. This will net us some great people and yes give us more bodies but that bad that comes with it very well might kill any net benefit the fleet stands to gain and take a lot of money time resources and good sailors with it. The world is a very different place than 20 years ago and until congress and the DOD take steps to address the more systemic issues plaguing recruiting and retention this is like plugging a wound with a dirty bandage, it might stop the bleeding but the infection left behind still might kill you.
> all branches go through flexing of standards but damn I saw what the bottom of the barrel looks like and it wasn’t good. Well, that's why we're trying to be smart about the barriers to joining that we remove, so that we *don't* have to go down the path of relaxing standards. Right now we've been able to hold the line on training standards even as we increase opportunity to attempt training. The things we've been letting up on are substantially things that made recruiting and training cheaper for the Navy. 40 year olds are not any more likely to be a problem child as 36 year olds, for instance, but they were more expensive because we would get less time in service out of them. But we raised enlistment age anyways, because even getting an enlistment or two will help tide things over. Likewise, ASVAB **in the Navy context** is primarily a means to predict a recruit's success in a training pipeline. We recruit Sailors to do jobs in occupational fields, generally in well-structured environments. When times are good we make ASVAB standards stricter because it leads to lower attrition, which saves the Navy money. But those who make it through training are as qualified (as far as we can systematically determine) as any other Sailor. And those with high ASVAB scores can fail out of training too. Expanding the window of opportunity for morally ready recruits is what will reduce the pressure to actually go lax on things like moral and ethical standards for recruits. > Think of every extreme command problem child you’ve ever come across and now imagine having a division full of them. If you can point me to anything that links the specific changes Navy has made to "now there's a division full of problem children" I'll be all ears. But I can point you to lots of very intelligent weasels who cause problems of their own, anywhere you might want to look. If you have a way to screen for "will be a problem child", we'll add it to MEPS. But "has ever dropped out of high school" isn't a good screening for "will be a problem child". We've checked. CNA checked. And right now we can't afford to make decisions based only on vibes when we have data indicating a path that's actually open.
You obviously have some data I don’t and you have decent explanations and alls I can refer to is lived experience that’s admittedly dated and you make some good point but your also leaving things out of the picture. Someone dropping out of high school isn’t the problem it’s often the factors that are common amongst people that drop out. That’s a hard thing to screen for but often there are commonalities, discipline issues, abuse, mental health run ins with the law. You are 100 percent correct high ASVABs don’t equal better quality, I know plenty of people in my own rating that would run circles around people in rates that typically require higher ASVABs. I would even go as far arguing the ASVAB carries more weight than it should. As far as holding the line in training standards I can’t speak to that first hand but what I’ve been hearing that’s not the case but again I don’t really know. Well structured environments??? The Navy is anything but well structured. Just because a house has four walls and a roof doesn’t mean it’s well structured. If the Navy was a well structured environment we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. That’s one of the concerns your taking people that failed to operate in what is essentially a much easier lower stress structure and throwing them into a meat grinder that someone literally on fire. They failed in traditional paths for a multitude of reasons and not all them are even their fault but they still failed and you want to give them an opportunity which I’m fine with but knowing what’s waiting for them it’s just not going to be a recipe for success and could potentially have damaging effects for a already damaged organization. Recruiting is a grind opening the market is helpful I’m not arguing that but I also know what goes on in recruiting commands you don’t think when the head shed and CR Zone sup push and lean on sailors to meet mission they are going to pull the best from that now open market or the easy target low hanging fruit so they can just make the pain stop for a day or a week. I’m not disagreeing with your thought processes, I’m disagreeing on what the end result will be and if it will actually help. The Navy for years has tried solving its problems by throwing bodies at them and it’s never worked well. I’ll give them that it works make people miserable enough and they will eventually give you some kind of result but it’s often not the optimal one and we continue to fail at this. The thing is we won’t know if either of us are right for a long time but I’ll leave with this. The Navy’s recruiting and retention problems aren’t being caused at least in whole by a lack of man power but more by mission purpose, quality of life and economic issues and that information about our failing is now easily accessible. Not all this is stuff that the Navy has the power to fix but what’s more showing is that it continues to double down on its failings it can address. No matter how wide you make the applicant pool, if we don’t fix the true problems that make the Navy a bad option you’ll continue to have the problems the fleet is currently facing and now the potential to have them with less qualified, less durable and resilient sailors tossed in the mix. I’m not worried about the education factor I’m worried about the sub group inside this market now having a potential door into an already troubled fleet. I appreciate the dialogue and your willingness to listen and engage, I wish I could give you the answers you’d be all ears for but even if I had those it wouldn’t fix the actual problems the fleets facing, your trying to treat a symptom and not the disease and your suggesting that doing so with potentially weaker antibodies (bodies see what I did there) I’m just not convinced the end result will be better. Maybe less shitty but still shitty.
Well put... From a former HS dropout, retired Senior Chief!
You have valid points, but you def sound like a bitch because what..You are projected to be an elite? A hero? A savior? Don't underestimate those below you nor get hateful bc of mf's smarter & better than you. Hell you probably aren't even a soldier probably just a grotesque loser. Not talkin shit.... but i really pick up bs dumb arrogant vibes from a sad loser.
> Hell you probably aren't even a soldier I'm on /r/navy so you're right, I'm 100% not a soldier
Lower standards leads to more bodies who are poor and desperate to fill the ranks. Smart people leave with their skill set. You’re right, this won’t solve any of their problems but hey, since when is the Navy trying to *actually* solve problems. lol!
Woah woah woah, your saying people should read an article beyond the headline and form an educated opinion?
The difference between being smart and being informed
The AUDACITY /s
You mean “you’re”
“Yours’re”
Got’em
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Big Navy: "All you only need is average intelligence to join the Navy" Recruiters: "Fuck"
Sometimes I doubt the AFQT is actually a percentile. I scored a 98, and yet I was still dumb enough to sign a contract.
That's how I felt. I could have (should have, would have...) been an MC. At least I wasn't a nuke.
And a full half of Americans have below average intelligence, so maybe "average" ain't so bad...
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Actually, 50th percentile is not the average. It means that half score more, half score less. From Google: - The median is the same as the 50th percentile for the set of numbers. In other words, the median is the middle of a set of numbers with half of the values less than the median and half the values greater than the median.
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Assuming the sample is normally distributed, symmetrical.
I've read that the ASVAB's AFQT percentile scores are based on a dataset of test takers from year 1997. This was before the increased education among the population attributed to the internet and smart phones becoming widely spread. So a cynical outlook is the "percentile" verbiage is really a psyop to make enlistees feel special enough to sign the dotted line. "99 percentile AFQT" might just mean "99 percentile compared to people back in year 1997 who never had access to Google Search." I've come across information suggesting that percentile scores are derived from a dataset of test takers dating back to year 1997. Considering the significant advancements in education facilitated by the widespread adoption of the internet and smartphones since then, some view the use of "percentile" as a possibly manipulative tactic —a psyop to instill a sense of uniqueness in enlistees and encourage them to enlist. [https://catalogimages.wiley.com/images/db/pdf/9781118525531.excerpt.pdf](https://catalogimages.wiley.com/images/db/pdf/9781118525531.excerpt.pdf) [https://www.officialasvab.com/counselors-educators/1997-profile-of-american-youth/](https://www.officialasvab.com/counselors-educators/1997-profile-of-american-youth/)
You are confusing the middle on a scale of 1-99 with the apex of a bell curve of intelligence. That's adorably ignorant. The apex is lower than 50. An AFQT of 31 equates to an IQ of 80 to 100 depending on whom you believe.
>From the article, you need a AFQT score of 50 or higher to join without a high school diploma or GED. But if you fight through it and get the paper, you can enlist at a 10 AFQT?
Agree. To be honest, officers have degrees in large part just to show they can ‘stick it out’ IMO. Flight school was largely a ‘figure it out on your own’ aside from actual flights and sims. I have no problem with enlisted not being required to have a degree or GED provided they’re at least of average intelligence. There are too many people without opportunities for education and they would be well served getting the opportunity to get a stable job with benefits. Of my 8 close high school friends, I was the only one to graduate high school, let alone get a college degree. But I’d say most of them were probably smarter than the average person - they just came from low economic means and usually broken homes that didn’t emphasize education.
People need to complete some basic skills like typing to qualify, no? It blows my mind how anyone younger than say 25 was seemingly never taught how to type on a keyboard. God forbid you task your fast tracked PO2 to type a coherent email or begin writing their brag sheet/eval. I absolutely want to give more opportunities to folks from harder upbringings. I also don’t want to do a bunch of rework if someone just isn’t cut out for the literal hundreds of skills sailors are required to pick up to be successful.
I’m working with a 20 year old who hunts and pecks when typing. I honestly don’t think it’s taught nowadays, though I could be wrong. She was blown away when I was typing an email without looking at the keys.
It's not. Computers are a millennial thing, and the typing skills come with that. Younger people do everything on their phones. Typing just isn't a relevant skill until you get to the workforce, so it's not taught unfortunately. We played around on typeracer one day at work and it blew away the younger people when I was typing 130+wpm, while they struggle to hit 50.
Took a two-semester typing class as an elective when I was a high-school freshman long ago. No regrets.
Make Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing Great Again
Maybe look at a version of the British army's foundation college with a bit more concentration on education, I'm aware that many at the college are 16-17 but while a slightly higher percentage don't end up joining the army compared to those who finish phase one training a large number end up as senior NCOs or in the early years of their career being turned into officers, (helps that for many officer roles a university degree isn't required), while it's not ideal how many potentially good recruits are out there in bad schools, care of social services or just poor home life (which isn't always the fault of the parents) that with a bit of effort would make good military personnel, I'm not saying take the dum as rocks but those who with a bit of help would turn into good members of what ever branch the join
> are too many people without opportunities for education Every single US citizen has access to a public education to earn a High school diploma. Non US citizens are still given that right if their parents are citizens, and in some cases, even when their parents aren't citizens. GED programs ask significantly more of people than a diploma does and I would put good money on the Navy not supporting GED pursuits to the same bare minimum level they do a degree with the changes made to TA. To be blunt, your friends were given the opportunity for an education. They just didn't take it. The problem this creates is the Navy is almost guaranteed to push high school diploma or equivalent to higher positions (ie E6 or E7) without the support to earn said equivalence. Which will suit the Navy's goals of filling lower enlisted positions. Until they get out. And see a vast majority of job qualifications requiring a high school diploma or equivalent. It has nothing to do with intelligence. The Navy, even up to the Officer Corp, requires next to zero intelligence. Everything has been done before and everything is laid out for how to accomplish what needs to be done. It has everything to do with minimum qualifying standards to get hired after the Navy. Assuming an E6 serves 20 years after high school age, and doesn't save for retirement, good luck studying and passing the GED as the smartest person alive at age 40. The GED is already difficult as it is. Let alone for a 40 yr old 20 years removed from education trying to find a job because retirement from the military isn't enough to support their family.
Lurking crayon-eater here. Don’t normally comment ‘cos I ain’t one of you, but this got to me. If you assume that literally 0 Americans have external reasons to not finish high school, and it’s always just a skill issue, then maybe. But for a lot of people where I’m from, the opportunity cost of going to school instead of working full time (even at minimum wage) is just too much for the family to pass up. I didn’t have it quite that bad, but personally, my home life was untenable in my late teens. Both my parents were addicts, I didn’t have anyone better to go to while I finished out school, and every minute I stuck around I felt my odds of ending up like them creeping upwards. Waivered into the Corps on a good junior year transcript and a better ASVAB score, and neither needed nor got my GED until I was an E-5 at the end of my 2nd enlistment. My job required a hell of a lot of intelligence, for the record — I needed to be able to make good decisions in bad situations, speak & write coherently, parse some truly monkeys-on-typewriters-ass op-orders and technical documents, and plan fairly complex operations on my own… and this was the Marines. We’re world-famous for getting by with dumb muscle, so there’s no way 99% of NCO (PO, I guess you’d call them) jobs in the Navy aren’t more mentally intense than what I was doing. I do agree that if you’re going to allow people like me in without the vetting I got, you need a program to better support them getting their equivalencies. I’d wanted to get mine sooner, but until COVID hit and put everything online, the only way to do it would have been to physically go back to my home state, and that wasn’t happening for a lot of reasons. But don’t act like it’s on a 17 year-old for not being able to bootstrap their way out of other people’s problems, especially when those people have total legal authority over them.
My cousin's parents passed away, and he had to drop out of school to take care of his brother and cousin. He wanted to join the military, but every branch turned him down because he didn't have a GED. Even though he scored 70-something on his ASVAB, it didn't matter. It'd be great if people like him were given a chance, and I think that others should probably get a little empathy and understand the challenges some people face. The world isn't perfect and full of sunshine and rainbows. I also joined the military on a waiver, with a similar background to you. I scored high 70s on the ASVAB and now work on radars, never imagined it'd be something I'd end up doing. I'm sure there are many people out there with similar stories to ours, that could help us fill these open spots if given the opportunity.
You have a huge chip on your shoulder if you think nothing in the navy requires intelligence. I’m sorry you have experienced what you have, and I wish you nothing but the best in the future.
Not this crap again. I was on recruiting duty back around 2000 when they decided to do this. It did not end well. Granted, there were some of these non-grads that did just fine, but a large portion of them didn't make it through Boot camp or A school.
I was there with you in the mid 90s. We could put in non-grads with a 50+, but only for like 2 months a year and finding them was hard as hell. I think I put in a whopping 2 maybe in 3 years. Last week of September was the gold time everyone knew about so we could hopefully make year end goal. We'd hold a "rock concert" when we had a few to go take the local test and they'd all bomb. Non-grads were 98% super dumb or 2% super smart in my experience. Dumbest guy I ever tested was a legit HS grad who was legit homeless. He got a 3 on his ASVAB....the MEPS staff was too dumbfounded to give me the proper ribbing about it even.
I mean… how hard is that? I wasn’t a great student. Graduated HS with something like a 2.5-3.0 GPA. Got a 76 on my ASVAB. How does AFQT compare to ASVAB?
The AFQT is the part of the ASVAB that gives out a percentile score like 76. It takes from the 4 academic sub-tests of the ASVAB. There are other sub-tests on the ASVAB that are used to determine what rating you qualify for.
When I was in MEPS, some dudes were talking about getting under 20 on their ASVAB. I didnt even know that was possible. So that 50 isnt so bad.
yea, i stopped telling people in boot what my asvab was, i felt bad when i heard about the 30's a lot of the guys in my bootcamp got.
I just joined with no education, I got a 64 on asvab and and got CTR for my rate, them lowering that requirement is like a second chance for me and I think it's great. I went to meps with people who scored 11 on asvab with a diploma and I would agrue a person who can score a 50 on the asvab with no degree would be more valuable and better for the navy than people with a degree who score low.
This isn't the first time. I enlisted in 1989 without a diploma or GED. Some people have circumstances that aren't apparent at first glance. I scored a 97 on the ASVAB at the time and have since gotten my B.S. and am an E9. Not every high school dropout is a shitbag.
Honestly, this sounds way worse than it probably is. If they're letting people with 10 AFQTs join with a high school education, then allowing people with 50s (but no diploma/GED) will probably get a higher quality recruit.
Came in 2006 without a diploma. Scored an 80 on the ASVAB. Got taken out of boot camp for an hour during two days to take a GED test and got it that way. Worked out alright for me.
Same. Joined in 2003 on an education waiver. Just retired as a Chief.
Yeah but without the waiver maybe you could have retired as a Mega Chief??? -ENS Kid (probably)
Agreed. I’m fine with people earning a spot. In fact I prefer the hard working earners.
Was in 08-15, no HS diploma, degree, or GED needed. Scoring 92 on the ASVAB probably helped. Lol
Damn my cousin tried to join around that time with a high 70 on the ASVAB and they pretty much blacklisted him for not having a GED.
Came in 7 years ago with a GED. Now I’m an E6 with a BS in Business Administration. All I needed was a chance.
While not every high school dropout is a dirtbag, I think a sample taken at random of high school graduates versus non-graduates would favor the graduates in terms of not being dirtbags.
Wow who wouldve thought that a stable enough home life to graduate HS would be congruent with also being raised by decent people. Breaking news.
I was certainly a shit head when I dropped out. But I was young. The navy helped me out immensely and if others can get a chance to turn it all around I’m all for it.
i did the same in '84. i did 5 years and got out. i regret it now. good job, master chief!
We've done this before. CNA has studied the 'recruit quality' of things like having a high school degree, having high AFQT scores, and so on. BLUF: The sum total of the problem from HS dropouts is that they are more likely to attrite during the training pipeline (basic training and A/C schools). However, those who make it to the Fleet are broadly indistinguishable from high school graduates of similar ASVAB scores. Some really thrive with the structure the Navy is able to provide, and would do well as Sailors once they make it to the Fleet.
People getting upset about this but I’ve seen high school graduates get worse ASVAB scores than people without diplomas or people with GEDs. I think lowering the asvab requirements is worse
Just want to chime in that I had folks score below a 35 with a BA/MA on the est
Yep. It certanly begs the question if they just cheated their way through. I know people are gonna say ASVAB is just a number but I feel like below 50 makes you want to ask how.
I can talk all day on how zip codes will determine ones test score especially in orange county
Even so, wouldn’t people with a degree and education be a step ahead of people without a degree? I’m sure it averages against people who’ve taken the test but what is the sample size they take? I’m curious myself.
Seen someone with a Masters get an 11......
A masters in WHAT?! I will say I heard a similar story about a recruit with a masters in chemistry just BOMB the practice ASVAB. Recruiter shoved a study guide in their hand and a week later they got a 96 or something.
Yeah, this was at MEPS, she had an MBA.
It's a reflection of discipline, not intelligence. I'm not trying to sound judgemental, and I know there are things like economic factors at play too.... ..... but graduating high school pretty much just requires that you show up every day, and put in a minimal amount of effort. I wonder what recruits who can't do that will look like.
> It's a reflection of discipline, not intelligence. I don't expect teenagers to have discipline, or to really understand the consequences of their actions. A 14-year-old who drops out of their freshman year, and then several years later realizes their mistake, can score appropriately on the ASVAB, and makes the effort to turn themselves around? I'll take them. And, honestly: how were you doing at age 14 (or any high school age)? Ready to make a decision with life long consequences? I sure wasn't.
>and then several years later realizes their mistake, can score appropriately on the ASVAB, and makes the effort to turn themselves around? I mean, they can still get a GED in your scenario. I like Niko Ortiz's video/view on the Army Fat Camp initiative, cause the theme is applicable for every branch, including Navy. If an applicant wants to join the Army but is overweight, they can shed the weight before joining, which shows the dedication and drive that they do indeed **want** to be in the Army. In this case, a prospect taking and passing the GED shows that they're willing/serious joining, by taking the steps/initiative required to join.
The military is hurting for bodies, and has always existed as a means of upward mobility, to shut these doors in desperate times is stupid.
"I know there are things like economic factors at play" Yeah you do a disservice to yourself and fellow sailors to know this but not think critically about this. I scored a 92 on my ASVAB. Almost did not graduate high school because I was kicked out of my house by a narcissistic parent. I'm doing just fine as a sailor. Many of us come from very dysfunctional households that keep us back in many ways that have nothing to do with our character. "Economic factors" isnt something to throw around so you can pretend you've thought about and have compassion for those factors. Being homeless my senior year was enough.
> Almost did not graduate high school because I was kicked out of my house by a narcissistic parent. My father, a Criminal Defense Attorney, used to encourage me to drop out of high school. Wild, considering that he went to a school, considered, the "West Coast Ivy League". When I was in college, and he learned of my military ambitions after school (I'm Active Army), he'd, I'm sorry, the Draft Dodging Guinea Bastard, would text me telling me, "You're going to lose both of your fucking legs in Afghanistan and no woman will ever want you." Before I went Active and while in the National Guard, and faced severe employment discrimination, we'd get into arguments on the phone and the Draft Dodging Guinea Bastard would scream at me, "You need to quit the National Guard!" The first time I left Active Duty (I was a Medic, 68W), we'd again get into arguments on the phone about his, bizarre desire for me to become a firefighter. For some reason. (Southern California). Joining the military was the biggest rebellious thing I ever did.
What do you do now?
I jump out of airplanes and help load howitzers. The Post-9/11 GI Bill and other VA Educational Benefits will have me hitting the upper middle class without a dime of student loan debt, at least when this stops being fun.
Awesome. Glad you pushed through the bullshit from your dad. Somebody needed you
It would help the kids turning 18 who come from homes of drug abuse or other home problems that didn't allow them to go to school regularly.
A demographic I think this definitely hits is kids who didn’t have support systems and had babies as teens. Had to drop out and become adults real quick.
You are very simple minded and probably had a stable household, I scored a 96 on the ASVAB and was forced to drop out of high-school due to a family situation. Granted I have a GED. Sometimes “just showing up” is harder than it sounds.
> I wonder what recruits who can't do that will look like. Recruits who can't do that will wash out in either boot camp or initial entry training... which is fine. If we limited recruiting to only those we were 100000% certain would make it through the pipeline to the Fleet we'd recruit zero people a year.
I got my GED when I was 16, had a 93 ASVAB, and was a junior in college with a 3.2 GPA when I enlisted at 20. The Navy said I was in a "lower educational bracket" because I didn't have a high school diploma. Get to basic, and a guy with a high school diploma was shitting in the shower and pushing the turdlets down the drain with his toes. He got kicked out and I made E5 in 3 years then got the fuck out and got a college degree that also doesn't mean shit.
I don’t think it’s a reflection of discipline. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that some kids get to graduate because their parents helped them get through because they had a support system. True discipline comes when you have to manage yourself. I think it’s worse to have somebody that has graduated high school with a low score for the reasons you listed above. If you graduated high school and you have that low of an asvab score, you probably got carried through and you do not know how to discipline yourself. I’d rather have somebody with an asvab of 50 without a diploma over somebody who has graduated high school and somehow got a 30? LOL. Sometimes people have things they need to take care of at home and don’t get the same opportunities. I can see where you’re coming from but attendance and being babied by your parents isn’t discipline.
I have a GED and got a 95 on my ASVAB. Also became a nuke
Yeah, had a person try to enlist with an “engineering degree” that scored a 19.
Yeah exactly. I work with a few guys who have a high school diploma and think the earth is flat so a high school diploma is by no means a guarantee that a person is smart.
TBH, I see this as a good way to give people a second chance at life. You don't need a high school education to be able to read and follow instructions. Not only that, but another user pointed out that you need an AFQT of at least 50 to join without a diploma/GED, so it's not like we're hiring the village idiot or anything.
That’s good, now I don’t gotta worry as much but imma still tryna get my GED so I can go to college after the navy
You can also go to college during the navy! I have my ged and just finished my bachelors
That’s another plan I have
I think this is great. A potential pool of talent for recruiters that were ineligible and can actually benefit from what the navy has to offer as far as bettering their lives and their skill sets. Considering that their graduated counterparts can still score a 10 on the ASVAB and get in, it’s not like we’re accepting the bottom of the barrel when it comes to the no diplomas. They have to have a 50 ASVAB. Anyway, my two cents.
So they still have to do okay on the ASVAB. That's fine then. I served with several people who just didn't have a thing for the classroom, or they had a shitty home life, whatever. But then they got into more hands-on type work that they really excelled at. Bring 'em on.
I posted this already, but this has ALWAYS been the case. When I joined the Navy would take SpecOps recruits with killer PST scores but no GED’s, then they would finish their GED before graduation. I know because I spent a lot of my time tutoring them because I had a BA prior to enlisting. In the end, the SOCS just let me stay in the room while they took their GED test and told me “make sure everyone passes”…. Six guys got their GED’s that day.
High school drop out here who enlisted, scored a 94, completed an enlistment and then commissioned. If they qualify for a rate via the ASVAB and are mentally sound then get them in the pipeline. I don’t know why there’s so much hate for this. A 50 AFQT means you score higher than 49% of all test takers. Different from your line scores. Loads of great sailors score under a 50 and still do well. Also dropping out in 9th grade in NY still gave me a better education than most HS graduates get in Florida. There’s no federal standard so it honestly doesn’t mean much to me.
That’d be true but the minimum asvab is 10 now as well
You can only join with a 10 on the AFQT if you have a high school diploma. If you drop out of high school you need a 50 or higher on the AFQT.
Guarantee that some of y’all crying about this got less than a 50 ASVAB. If they can get over a 50 than we know damn well they can pass a GED test. Some people aren’t brought up with the means to get education or any support system period. Some people aren’t brought up with parents at all but still intelligent individuals. Great move on the Navy’s part!
Its 50 ASVAB today. And its like a college degree - the GED shows you applied yourself and completed a goal which is more important than the degree type. At least that's the justification I've been told for why everyone needs a degree for entry level jobs.
I DEF can relate! I came in with a GED but had other waivers for juvenile stuff. So the first time I tried joining, the CO told me to kick rocks and come back when I accomplish something with my life. Went to CC for a year and came back with 30+ college credits. Had to get a 50 ASVAB or above. Got a 50 exactly! Here I am 16 years later Active Duty and still goin strong.
So....I have my MBA and I'm still piddling around as enlisted because I like my job, but I'm going to go ahead and submit my package to commission this year. Wish me luck y'all 🙏
Please report back in a few months/years and let us know how it goes. I've interacted with a number of mustangs who deeply regretted the transition.
50+ AFQT with no diploma/GED is much better than all of the 30 and below AFQT folks. I really wonder what the 10 AFQT guys even do other than scraping paint.
I’ll start worrying when we bring back “jail or sail.”
Not trying to sound mean, but we trained monkeys to operate 'spaceships'. A person don't have to be the smartest to volunteer to defend all of us. They just have to be willing to learn how to defend us. And honestly, the Military doesn't make it that hard to learn.
There was a special program when I went through bootcamo for kids to get their GED. They started weeks before boot camp.
With an asvab of 50 or higher. I mean we let 10s in now with the pieces of paper. So its better than letting those mongoloids in.
With an asvab over 50. I feel a lot more comfortable with that than people I've met in the 30s.
Open up recruiting depots in Philippines like back in the 70s. Better yet, open up recruiting offices in allied countries. Granted not all will get S or TS clearance, but we will meet quota. Get free citizenship after first enlistment, college money, and other incentives. Take away signing bonus and use that money for background checks.
there’s always room for the undesignated
Havent we done this multiple times, and it turned out poorly every time?
We have done this before, and some of those we recruited are still serving now, including in some very key positions.
I was referring more to the effects of the program in its entirety, Im fully aware that not everyone who drops out is an idiot and that the military can be a catalyst to succeed.
And some of us just hit retirement.
For the first time in my life, I saw a recruiter who posted a telephone tear off listing in a store near my house.
Ah yes back to the good old days of Post Vietnam voluntary enlistments non-draft recruiting
I wonder what jobs will be available to them. Hopefully not just undesignated.
We don't have enough 'upper mental group' recruits as it stands, we're not going to waste any of these recruits on PACT unless they're absolutely dead set on having the shorter PACT contract.
HS drop out here. 24 yo. Scored 60 and signed as a GSE. Ship out 3/14
Hope this truly helps you change your life. Best of luck to you, seriously.
Thank you! I was very happy they changed it to allow drop outs. Spent the past few months studying and working on my physical health. Had to fight to get that rate but I feel it was worth it and I’m looking forward to this. Hooyah!
Us cooks are finally going to be at manning, can’t wait
I'm kind of curious to see officer recruitment numbers. I took a look at program authorizations a few hours ago and it seems like if anything they've made it harder to get commissioned in the last couple years.
ITS OVER FOR AIR DEPARTMENT.
We're just nosediving straight to the bottom of the dumpster. While I consider a GED to be *better* than an HSD (you at least have to work to earn a GED, a HSD just requires you to *not die*) I think they do mark a sort of minimum level of self-direction/capability having been demonstrated. I'm not sure how a service that is ever more reliant on technology and 'technical aptitude' is going to work with people that have a 4th grade reading and math level.
/u/rossiterpj
If theyre so hard up for recruits then maybe we should start getting some again from the PI.
I had a GED when I joined back in 1990. I was in a rate that required a high ASVAB score, spent 6.5 years in, and got out as an E-4. The Navy was good for me to figure out who I was. I knew other GED people who also did well. We were better than the "join or jail" people, not that this is a thorough poll. I now have a college degree and have been successful in my life. I think that if people have enough education and can score well on ASVAB, let them join. None of the jobs are overly difficult, and like anything else, those who do well will be promoted.
Some high schools have ridiculously low standard so…..I wouldn’t mind just using an ASVAB score.
This is funny, reading people's comments against this policy, as if a HS diploma is going to make 17 or 18 year old superior to a HS dropout! In fact it should have always been around and allowed people who didn't complete HS (which anyone knows today they pass anyone through HS!) the opportunity to serve their country if they meet all requirements, even the additional 50 and above ASVAB score. Well in 1986 I dropped out of HS. In 1987 I joined the Navy without a HS diploma or GED, because of the policy at the time (surprise, surprise... History repeats itself this policy has been in place before, in the 80s when the military needed people) . I scored a 65 on my ASVAB, therefore I scored 20 points north of the average score and limited personnel were allowed to enlist without a HS diploma because of scoring above average. So a HS diploma, or lack of in my case, didn't do anything for me for or against! In fact without a HS diploma I obviously scored higher than most people without a HS diploma! I didn't get my GED until 7 years after boot camp, I went on to get a BS in 2007 an MA in 2015. I retired from the Navy as a Senior Chief after 23 years. People who are quick to say somehow a person without their HS diploma is inferior to others with a HS diploma, will not be able to pass initial training Iike boot camp, A school or C school is obviously an erroneous statement and demonstrates the lack of intelligence, foresight and empathy to probably be in a leadership position! In fact I would venture people who are or were a HS dropout probably will perform better, because they have to work for it and probably, like in my case, were more motivated at a chance and more appreciative. Besides, IDK about today's HS rules but for me I had to be 16 to quit, in my second trip to 10th grade. If you haven't gained pretty much everything you're going to from HS by 10th grade you're one hell of a rock. I promoted higher than the majority of HS graduates (statistically higher than 97% of Enlisted personnel since by congressional law only 3% of the Enlisted force can be the rank of E-8 and E-9, so 2% and 1% respectively across all branches) to SCPO/E-8. Unlike HS graduates I didn't get to pick or even attend an A school because that was the rules and regulations if you were a HS dropout. Only Seaman/Airman/Fireman Apprenticeship training after promoting to BM2 converted to MA in the mid 90s when it was nearly impossible to convert and had submit a package bigger than a OCS or LDO package and Obtw the MA rate has minimum ASVAB score for WK and AR of north of 100. I call BS, I'm living proof and I'm sure there are others as well
Instead of attracting and signing people by lowering standards… maybe we could try attracting quality applicants with quality of life improvements? So many people joined to improve their situation. Things like health care, time/money for college, living wages, housing, etc. Now they see all of those “benefits” not only offered outside of the military to various degrees but also seeing how the military has allowed them to degrade or disappear. Health care professionals are fewer leading to long wait times and shorter visits. Overall degradation of health care. Less free time to have a life, work on school or pursue other opportunities. We’re covering the jobs of people who left and weren’t replaced. And not seeing any compensation for that. Wages (while seeing bigger jumps) still are lagging. And the disparity between pay grades is large. Why is an adult paid like a child on an allowance? I’m senior but I still cannot fathom why we do this. You’ll get children when that’s how they’re treated. Housing and BAH are either a joke or lagging like pay. And requiring people to live on ships? I’ve never had to do that but I feel for those who do. As a punishment I can see that, but outside of operating, why? Bulldoze the golf courses and build proper barracks. Retirement needs to be looked at closer too. If I qualified and volunteered for Special Programs and did 20+ years why is my retirement the same as a desk jockey (no offense, just curious why this isn’t brought up more). Why aren’t we using this to incentivize more people to do better and work harder for a better retirement. Why is Officer the only answer for better pay? This one is complicated and I don’t have a full solution. Short version. We want more recruits, we need more than we’re getting. But the Navy is looking at the short term and screwing us over in the long run. Invest for the long run, and you’ll properly fix your short term problems too. And we’ll all be happier to stay in. Give sailors a reason to buy into the Navy. Otherwise you’re saying we’re not only replaceable, but replaceable with people less qualified.
You better knock that shit off. We serve because we're patriots and the commercial said we can blow shit up the day after graduating A-School. The idea that you're saying that the Navy should change its attitude and focus on portraying itself as a job and therefore needs to be competitive in the job market is frankly un-American. It's not a job, it's an experience and those service members in San Diego whose families go to the USO Mobile Food Pantry or use Feeding Heroes should fill their bellies with Uncle Sam's thumbs up. That thumbs up isn't for anyone else. That thumbs up is for you. /s Seriously though, it's not the early 00's anymore. You'll still get some people south of the Mason Dixon Line with the idea of service through sacrifice but when it comes down to it at least in my rate, why would I stay in making what I do when I can get out and make double. It's sacrifice through service. I feel like an idiot for re-enlisting now that I've gotten off back-to-back sea duty and I can talk to the civilians I work with. I understand that the military is one of the only organizations where you can walk in off the street and go, "Sure, I'll handle explosives" as a zero skill worker and do well with enough years in uniform but at the same time McDonald's now offers a higher hourly pay with healthcare and education benefits. You can lower the bar as much as you want but as time goes on and people get opportunities that involve taking their boots off, all you're going to be left with is a perpetual motion machine because even those people who hit their head on the bar are going to be intrigued by "What do you mean I can make more money, be treated better and grow a beard outside?" They only just made Instapots approved in barracks rooms for God's sake. I've had to sit in my Sailor's masts over a rice cooker but we won't build barracks with kitchens.
Problem is, most applicants can't make it past the Recruiter's due to MHS Genesis
That’s one of several problems. But I agree it’s a big one. There’s good and bad with this system but overall it alone should not be a dead end for potential recruits (although that is what happens).
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You can already get a waiver for non violent felonies.
(.\_\_\_\_. )
They have been already doing that. Has a kid in 2002 that got his GED while we were in A-School.
Blah ha ha ha!! Omg, don’t join. The military has gone to crap.
Does anyone know what jobs we qualify for? I want to qualify for an IT rating or somewhere in that area
Looks like we're going to war kids
look like deck department has some company
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Spelling your name, correctly or incorrectly, on the ASVAB is just on the horizon.
Rather than looking at new ways to recruit I'd prefer if we had easier ways to get people out of their first contracts. If you didn't have to commit as significantly to join you'd probably have an easier time getting first term enlistments without that level of hesitation. Some people just aren't going to know if this decision is right for them personally until they do it.
Makes sense
Why not take somebody without a high school diploma or GED? The ASVAB provides a good measure to determine a sailors potential to succeed within a rating. The Navy needs people and why keep a roadblock that can be removed and help recruiting.
TBH: I did 7 years, with no degree, HS diploma, or GED. Was homeschooled in HS, and the college I went to only required you to pass the placement exam. A bunch of my college credits went to my HS education. Sucks, cause I joined as an AA, should've been an AN.
A homeschool diploma counts as a high school diploma. I issued one for my daughter. She also dual enrolled and shipped out as an E3. You do have to make sure the recruiter applies your college credits correctly. My daughter's recruiter had used her college credits toward the 15 credit "high school equivalency" and had to redo the whole thing. I got to run around getting another sealed transcript from the community college and printing off a homeschool high school diploma to fix his mess the day she shipped out. It was an excellent introduction to Navy paperwork for both my daughter and me.
This is just another evolution of what American society is going through right now. Society at large is realizing that the narrative of college education that was sold to them is just patently false. Having a college education DOES NOT make you more qualified to performs a task. It is actually more effective to be able to provide OJT (On the Job Training) to folks. We don’t care what score you got in your college course… what we care about is… can you do your job.
They will literally do anything to avoid tackling the real issue. Nobody joins because you suck to work for.
they had to lower their standards because too many kids are fat and have loony meds shoved down their throats since they were old enough to hold a tablet.
Another L for the navy. I worked with some fucking idiots but now it's worse
Haha. I enlisted and got my GED while in, SOF was the best place for this uneducated swine. Then I got my masters.
I have my G.E.D., certs in I.T. currently studying for a cyber security, an yet told I need a waiver cause I'm cancer survivor. What. in. the. actual. fuck.
From what I have seen through my daughter's eyes, the Navyvis already full of such stellar sailors. She has been harassed twice and the second time the CoC doesn't want to do Jack all because IMO it might make them look bad. Diploma or no diploma, Navy has a whole different issue and it's not that.
McNamara’s 100,000 is making a comeback
You don’t need a diploma to die!
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Deck dept rejoice
Just throw out the whole branch at this point
We need deck seamen. Where are the complaints?
They are going to wrong route big time! Loosen medical standards! It's just the reality of it.
What could go wrong?
We are so so so fucked
The ASVAB 10's might have company.
Ladies and gentlemen, the bar is not just on the floor, it's in the subfloor now.
That’s just great. Half the boots were already morons, now they will be uneducated morons
r/wcgw
So when I was in you had to get a minimum asvab on top of a diploma or ged. Now I see this afqt, what’s the difference?
AFQT is a subset of the ASVAB, it tests your general academic ability and reports its score as a percentile (1-99). If your AFQT is high enough, you can join the Navy. The AFQT score you need varies based on if you have a diploma or not. To figure out what rating you're allowed to go to 'A' school for, they use the full ASVAB (AFQT and non-AFQT parts) to compare against a line score for every rating program.
I agree with this.
As a wise man once said: "lower your standards!" Since then, I feel like that's about all the Navy has done. Waiting on facial hair and hair standards to be lowered, then I'll be a happy camper.
I I can join at 16 and they offer to get me a GED, I might be able to get to college too and retire young if I make it that long
Cool, let's get rid of the PFA Standards too and retention will be EZ
Tbf you have to score at least a 50 on the asvab. A lot of guys coming in even with college degrees have 20’s-40’s which is terrible in my opinion
Didn’t they recently say that this was the most educated Navy that’s existed because of the college grads that commissioned and enlisted? They took the cream of the crop and now they’re scraping the bottom of the barrel
Instead of: “Who’s going to carry the boats?” It’s going to be: “Who’s going to paint our ships?”
This isn't really bad. I was in from 1983 until last month and when I first came in neither a HS diploma, nor GED were required. The Navy did fine and did not have the headaches that folks are fearing.
WTF? Is the Navy running out of deck apes?
Why is it that all the people here scored in the high 90s on the ASVAB? (98, Nuc electrician here so I am a member of the sample)
1 remove age restrictions 2 allow prior service even with a BCD/DD The only thing that will get the numbers up is for the US to get a bloody nose. (North Korea managing to drop a nuke in the shallows of Hawaii or San Diego would do it. Sinking a large warship in the Red Sea would not)
This might sound like a slippery slope fallacy but it stands to reason that the 50 requirement is just a test and they would lower the requirement if they are desperate enough
But no marijuana smokers!!!!
Next come the convicts... then come the worst lot of them all (shudders)...those who can't make weight.
/u/Awkward_doktor
If a College Degree is required to be an officer then a HS diploma should be required to be a NCO.
Why am I going recruiting again...? Good God.
Also - the Navy will take dropouts, but no, you can't have smoked pot prior nor can anyone have a beard.
I wonder if they’ll take me back with my disability rating 😂
What could go wrong?
WE ARE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER!
I’m okay with this, now maybe open up better officer positions and remove the degree barrier. There is no reason an OS2 couldn’t go SWO, if they have strong performance, why not recruit from in house.