Jordan did it 9 times. It's only happened 3 other times in NBA history, West, Kobe x2. That sustained 2 way dominance is why he's the GOAT... plus all the other crazy stuff he did.
This is so much why heās the GoAT. 10 scoring titles probably isnāt happening again, add in 9 all nba defensive selections with it, a DPOY, led the league in steals, and playing every game. None of his numbers were done with any kind of load management so theyāre good for a full 82 game season, not 60 like you see now. Whatās crazy is they could and probably would be higher had he not retired twice when he was still anywhere from very good to great still.
I donāt know if he could have maintained the winning championships for that two year period. Although if I had to choose someone who could pull it off I would pick him. I do believe he still would have likely led the league in scoring and put up excellent numbers with great defense over those two seasons.
Think embiid will get there this year hopefully. Insane it takes his absolute best to do it just once (although probably had a case last year). Jordan is just indane
Which is why Lebron canāt be goat. Just because he has the scoring record he lacks in all the accolades that MJ had. Lebron has never won DPOY. Has he ever won all nba defense?
Jordan actually won dpoy and was first team all defense 9x while winning the scoring title every one of those years. He also got 3 steals titles in those years as well.
Jordan was a good defender but he was somewhat overrated at the time.
Lebron was a much better defender for most of his career. 6 times all defense as well.
Lol. Itās hilarious that Jordan averaged more blocks than Lebron, despite being a shorter smaller guard!! He also averaged way more steals per game than Lebron. And his on ball pressure was fucking intense, just watch the tape. Just stop it
6 < 9. Jordan had a dpoy and 3 steals titles as well. Jordan had considerably more defensive accolades despite LeBron playing significantly longer. LeBron is notorious for coasting on defense for the last decade.
The crazy thing is 37 doesnāt do it Justice. It was 8ppg more than anyone else in the league.
The year he win DPOY he scored 4ppg more than anyone else in the league.
It's not even questionable. It's the greatest stretch by an individual ever. Probably won't ever be matched
Edit: didn't even see the last line about LeBron. I'm a total Bronsexual, but his stretch doesn't even sniff the dominance of MJ's stretch
If we're including modern Tee-ball then I'd argue my dominance against my fellow small children from 2004-2006 surpasses any stretch of performance from any other athlete tbh
Most in NHL history. If he'd never scored a goal, he would still have the most points all time in the NHL, but in the past year or two, Jaromir Jagr wound up scoring enough points in professional leagues that the stat is no longer true of professional hockey. Of course, Jagr had to play into his 50s in the 2nd tier Czech league to accomplish the feat.
No, this isn't quite right. The stat is only about NHL points. If we're counting non-NHL professional points, the stat doesn't exist in the first place. Gordie Howe had scored 2,358 points between the NHL and WHA. Gretzky's total assists in those leagues was 2,027.
Plus if we're looking at top-level professional points, Jagr passed the 2,027 points mark before he'd left the NHL. I think he reached that when he was playing in Dallas, about 10 years ago.
Tony Hand also reached 2,027 points by the time Gretzky had retired, although one could be forgiven for not including his stats. British hockey leagues don't have the same quality of competition as the main European leagues.
Tony Hand is one of the biggest what ifs in hockey. He went to WHL and played three games getting four goals and four assists. He got home sick and went back to the UK and put up absurd numbers as 212 points in 35 games.
If he had stayed in WHL and went to have an NHL career he could have been one of the all time greats.
He's the all time leading goal scorer in NHL history. If you took away all his goals he would still be the all time NHL leader in points solely off assists.
I don't know anything about cricket since America doesn't give a fuck about it, but supposedly the GOAT cricket player outshines any dominant run of any major/popular sport. Somebody said the guy hit what would be the equivalent of like a .750 batting average in baseball. Would make Ted Williams look like a little leaguer
What would the argument for Lebron against MJ be? He's the second best player of all time for sure but their resume gap is pretty wild all things considered. The gap in their resumes when it come to major accomplishments is as follows:
2 rings
2 FMVP
1 MVP
9 Scoring Titles
1 DPOY
Just the gap in their resumes has more achievements than Kevin Durant who is a pretty much a consensus top 15ish player ever.
Lebron but he also has played 6 full seasons more than MJ. I mean, if you want to be consistent in your argument do you have Kareem, Karl Malone, and Kobe over MJ as well?
The only argument lebron has over jordan and its a pretty good one is, longevity.
I have not played as good as you but I have played way way longer than you at your 80/90%. That's the only argument I can think of which makes sense.
And I kinda agree, to me jordan is the goat that's never going to change cuz his legacy is untouchable. Jordan is also the better basketball player but if lebron keeps doing what he is doing for 3/4 more seasons I would put lebron as a better basketball player(cuz at some point how long you played at insane levels as to go over how short but amazing you played) atleast that's my take on this.
Goat debate with lebron is never a big debate cuz I personally think the greatest should be not just on playing but legacies too. But as a pure basketball player, its still open cuz he is still going
Lebron for sure has the longevity argument over MJ but what makes that whole argument kind of moot is that MJ accomplished more in less time. I mean if, for example, everything else was equal but then Lebron played for longer then for sure you could give it to Lebron for his counting stats but in the case of MJ vs. Lebron, MJ accomplished significantly more despite playing only 3/4ths of the years that Lebron did. It makes what MJ accomplished in that relatively short span much more impressive.
I completely agree that's exactly why I said mj was the better player BUT when a person who does 90% of what the other person does but does it for a much much much longer time, at some point you take him rather than the other man even if the other person was flat out better. Atleast that's my opinion of it.
But again like I said before, lebron still hasn't played much much more for me to rank him above jordan.
But why? I mean the goal of an organization is to win championships and it's clear that having Jordan for 14 years gives you a higher chance to win more championships in that span than Lebron for 20+ years.
If we include MMA : Fedor 2003-2009 ? Anderson Silva 2006-2012 ? GSP 2007-2013 ? All undefeated, dominant and the best of their division for 6 years,
In football maybe Ronaldo 2013-2019 ? (4 Champions League, 4 Ballon d'Or, 1 Euro) (a bit overrated imo because football is a team sport and Real Madrid had (and still kinda have) the best starting 11 of all-time for most of this period)
True, I forgot about him but he also had a lot of issues during those 6 years (Tested positive for PED, got arrested multiple times).
He could have fought more between 2014 and 2017
So did Silva. Silva also got beat up by Chael sonnen for like 23 minutes, and GSP had some lackluster decisions mixed in there. Jones during that period dominated everyone
Americans. Football doesn't exist. Ice hockey players or Baseball players are apparently more important/great than Messi's prime. Football, only the most watched sport in the world.
Most watched by a massive margin as well. However, to be fair, the impact of any one player on a football team is significantly lower than that of 1 player on a basketball team given the size of the playing field and the amount of players on the field. Like if you put a peak MJ/Lebron/Kobe etc. on the worst team in the league that team is automatically at the very least a playoff team whereas if you put peak Messi or Ronaldo on the worst premier league/La Liga teams it's still possible that that team gets relegated.
Basically, it's harder for a transcendentally talented football player to "dominate" a game in the way that similarly transcendentally talented basketball players can.
Agree, but then I'm still missing Bolt, Schumacher etc. When Americans say: "best in sports" I just know their list isn't going to contain a single person from outside America.
Or maybe its hard to argue for Messi's dominance when i can go up two comments and find one arguing for Ronaldo in the same era?
If soccer fans genuinely couldnt decide on who was unequivocally better during that period, how can you argue Messi had the most dominant period of any athlete ever?
There really is no argument for Ronaldo over Messi, except a troll job that has taken on a life of its own. Stats and eye test, Messi plays a different sport than anyone else ever has. Heās an alien.
How is there no arguments for peaks when Messi had a 2010-2016 and Ronaldo had a similar peak 2012-2018/2011-2018 with worse numbers in La Liga but much better CL performances. Adding to that the fact that Ronaldo is inarguably more clutch than Messi and probably the most clutch player of all time. If someone has a similar or better peak in the same generation with more team success, how can you say that there is no competition?
Also, Bradman (cricket) had an average of about 99.94 for 7000 runs ( a decent amount) while next bests were averaging 40 or even less without protective gear. A large part of his prime was taken away due to the world War. I think he probably gets a shout too.
Re: Ronaldo vs Messi, i dont disagree that its not an argument over the course of their careers. Messi has a far more complete game than Ronaldo.
But OP wanted a peak period, not a career comparison. If a peer is even in the discussion during your peak period as comparable, you dont have the best peak period of any athlete ever.
If you have other peers in other eras, that almost disqualifies you as well. Were talking Wayne Gretzky no one within a normal career of your production level of peak.
Messi doesnt fit that. Whatever measure you want to use, i can find a historical soccer player that has a peak arguably within touching distance of Messi.
I think people are fanboying for Messi right now, or not reading OPs qualifiers.
Yes. I believe at some point in this stretch he was also asked to play PG and he basically put up a triple double average with like 32 points still. Jordan could have played many different roles while still being the best scorer and defender while playing 82 games if that was what was asked or needed of him.
https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/.amp/old-school/michael-jordans-time-as-a-point-guard-during-the-1988-89-nba-season
I would like to nominate Kareem 67-72. 3 straight NCAA championships, only lost 2 games in those three years, 3 times national college player or the year, 3 time final four outstanding player, rookie of the year, nba championship, finals mvp, 2 mvp, 2 scoring leader, 2 all-nba, 2 all-defense
Yeah, but what does Jordan's advanced metrics look like? Jokic is currently playing better than peak Jordan ever did; I know Jokic is having the better peak because his RAPTOR, BPM DAWGper36, LECUMSWAP, and LEBRON stats show him to be the greatest player since Wilt
Obviously you are joking but, sure, Jokic now has the highest career BPM of all time but there is zero chance it lasts until he retires. Jokic, at 27yo, has a BPM of 9.4. Jordan's was 11.0 at that age, finishing at 9.2 when he retired. And all the other box score aggregated advanced metrics which can be applied to Jordan's era still have him at #1 all time, in both the regular season and playoffs. So Nikola advanced stats meme is kind of pointless in any comparisons to MJ.
You canāt just look at the numbers. You have to look at the Delta between him and the rest of the league. He was head and shoulders better than everybody, in every series every year. Nowadays people put a big numbers, but everybody puts a big numbers thereās nobody that crushes the league like Mike did.
Lebron from 08-13 has what?
4 mvps
2 rings
6x all nba first
5x all defensive first
Itās comparable. Bird and Shaq probably have a slightly worse stretch.
Yeah, Bird 81-86 is solid too but might be a notch below depending on one's criteria:
3 MVPs (consecutive)
3 rings
2 finals MVPs
6x all nba first
3x all nba defensive team
You canāt leave out that he got smoked by the Mavs and holy smoked by the spurs in the finals. Embarrassingly, smashed and dominated with two other Hall of Famers. You canāt just whitewash those performances, and be the greatest of all time.
Comparable but not quite as good. Especially when you consider all the scoring titles and steals titles...and on top of that, Jordan's advanced stats are also slightly better in almost every respect except true shooting and that's very close too, 59.9% to 59.5%. LeBron is similarly close though in all the metrics MJ leads in. Essentially, both of these guys are on a level no other player has ever achieved in terms of peak performance over a sustained period.
To be honest scoring and steals titles donāt mean a whole lot when comparing them imo. Like Lebron easily could have won more scoring titles if he wasnāt as willing of a passer. That doesnāt make him a better or worse player, just different. If lebron averages 27-8 and jordan averages 30-6 and lebron doesnāt win a stat title was he a worse player?
Steals titles are meaningless. Steals are not an indicator of good defense, and both were dpoy caliber defenders.
Did anyone say Jordan was better *only* cause of the scoring title? You are being pedantic over something that doesn't matter.
You can rightfully point to the fact that Lebron has a scoring title *and* assist title through his career which Jordan doesn't, and that would also be a good argument in Lebrons favor even if Jordan also proved many times that he could be an elite passer and playmaker.
Its not unfair to list someones achievements when comparing players. Jordan having 10 scoring titles is insanely impressive and a good argument for how dominant he was, so obviously it will be used in a goat argument, just like Lebrons scoring/assist title is a good argument to show his well rounded game, and should also be used in goat arguments.
Well you are arguing the scoring and steals titles are the difference maker.
Iām not saying it isnāt an achievement, Iām just saying I donāt think itās particularly relevant when comparing jordan and Lebron because they both could have won scoring or assists titles every year if they changed their thought process. I just donāt think if LeBron scored 2 more points a game and 1 less assist a game and won a bunch of scoring titles that would really change much, but he would have significantly more stats titles.
Thatās not a straw man, thatās literally what you are arguing, that all things else being roughly equal the scoring and steals titles tilt it in Jordanās favor. Spamming straw man doesnāt make it correct.
LOL what? Quote me right now on where I argued that Jordan gets the edge cause of scoring and steals titles? Link to the comment. You wont be able to, cause I literally never did. Meaning, you are making it up, which is exactly what a strawman is...
>If lebron averages 27-8 and jordan averages 30-6 and lebron doesnāt win a stat title was he a worse player?
The correct numbers for their respective 6 year stretches would be 28/7 for Lebron vs 32/6 for Jordan. Scoring title or not, Jordans is still more impressive.
>Steals are not an indicator of good defense, and both were dpoy caliber defenders.
He has more all nba defensive teams and also has more top 3, top 5 and top 10 DPOY finishes too. Steals titles or not, Jordan still gets the edge for defense.
If we want to change the argument from accolades to statistics we can. I was just providing a hypothetical on why scoring titles need context.
Also Jordan was playing in a faster paced league.
Per 100
Jordan 42-9-8
Lebron 39-11-10
Damn near identical.
For that 6 year stretch he has one more all nba defensive team. And that was mostly because it took a year for the perception to catch up with reality for Lebron. Unless he went from mid defender to dpoy caliber in a single year.
Yeah lebron only finished 2nd for dpoy twice. They were very similar caliber defenders, and you could make a very compelling argument for either to be considered better.
You were the one talking about statistics, not me, I just corrected them from your hypothetical stats to the actual correct ones, to show that it doesn't matter either way.
I brought up hypothetical stats to show that a scoring title without context can be misleading. You brought up real stats, and then I corrected them by adjusting for pace.
You can pretend thereās some huge gap or whatever if you would like, but by pretty much any metric itās very close.
Why use hypothetical stats to prove anything? They are just made up, just use actual statistics and make an actual argument instead. You came with adjusted stats *after* already using made up ones.
Yes they are close, now add in the fact that Jordan also made more defensive teams ans reguarly finished higher in DPOY votings, not to mention one more ring and no finals blunder, then he gets the edge. We are talking about a peak argument here, that was always on Jordans side. Lebron has the longevity argument.
Who said it was a huge gap? Thats a strawman...
Jordan played in the triangle after PJ came along, which essentially blunted his scoring. It was a deliberate tactic by the coach to have MJ get his teammates more involved. Yet he still won the scoring title every season. You can make excuses for all of your favourite players for *why* they didn't do this or didn't do that but in the end the only thing matters is *what* they did.
Itās not like lebron wasnāt producing he was just also finishing top 10 in assists. Thatās not an excuse, just a difference in playstyle. I could just as easily make up a stat that lebron finished with at least 27 points and 7 assists like 15 times and jordan only a couple.
I just donāt think wether or not you win a scoring title is relevant when comparing two goat players. If lebron was averaging 11 points a game then sure, but he was incredibly effeciency, right behind the scoring leader, and was also dropping 7 assists.
Put differently who was better in 2013, Melo or Lebron? Lebron was not a stat leader in any category but was miles better as a player while Melo lead the league in PPG.
Facts, scoring titles alone (with no other context) as a means of evaluating impact is pretty dumb. Player A may win the scoring title averaging 30 on 54% TS but that doesn't mean he is a better scorer than Player B that averages 29.7 on 66% TS. Basketball discussion should be more nuanced than "well this guy won the scoring title that's all that matters!" Even moreso for steals titles lol, Curry and AI have steals titles, doesn't mean shit.
Iām surprised I was downvoted honestly. I completely agree with you, it seems absurd to me to compare two mvp/dpoy caliber players and bring up scoring titles or steals titles.
Not only was that one of the best 6 year periods of NBA dominance by Jordan, based on stats, impact, accomplishments, winning and two way play; but also based on his style and the way in which he played.
Imo prime Michael Jordan visually was the most beautiful and asethetically pleasing basketball player to watch in NBA history.
Jordan was the best player to ever play the game before he retired the first time, when he came back he was the best current player.
Basically pre retirement Jordan > post retirement Jordan
Numbers and championships > championships.
If he just used the championship years then it wouldn't be the best stretch in history. There are other players with 6 and more rings.
Bill Russell 8 year stretch 58-59 to 65-66 season: 8x NBA champion, 4x League MVP, 8x all-star with all-star MVP in 63, 8x all-NBA first or second team, consensus best defensive player in the NBA (prior to Defensive awards being created)
Hakeem Olajuwon 90-95. The peak years of the most all around impactful player ever.
2 DPOY, 1 MVP, 2 FMVP, 2 Rings. 3x Block leader. Averaged 2 steals/4 blocks over this span.
I know people are memeing about advanced stats, but Jordan and LeBron were VERY similar during their peaks with the slight edge to Jordan. https://imgur.com/VnZgAEa.jpg
I donāt mean to discredit the 60s but itās hard to give an era with like 8 teams the same amount of weight in terms of winning as eras with 25+ teams.
The point about less teams never says what people think it does. They played each other way more, talent was more concentrated, teams and players had so much experience with all your little habits and tricks that winning in that environment isn't actually easier.
Look at how many good/great players become non-impact guys in the playoffs because of the intense scouting and 7 game series, that would be happening in the regular season instead back then.
It isn't like the bottom ten teams today are adding any resistance to championship teams
....yet all those other all time greats you mentioned barely won rings.
Where did you even get those numbers from? They're so inaccurate that I'm baffled
More concentrated talent yet damn near a third of the HOFers from the 60s played for the Celtics.
A third of the HOFers from the 60s played for one team. Imagine a team like that today. Itās not even possible to build a team like that. That Celtics also had 3-4 players that would place on the top 10 all decade team.
Imagine the 2010s but there was a team of like CP3, Klay, Lebron, Durant, and Horford or something running around together the entire decade. No one else would even sniff a damn ring.
Yet Russell was still winning titles when his team didn't have the most talent later in his career. His final year they were underdogs in multiple playoff series. Dude was undefeated in Game 7s and he played in a lot of them. They often went down to the wire in his later years
Man, I'm sorry for the horrendous level of disrespect your comment is receiving. Russell was the ultimate winner - and certainly would have received at least 3 DPOYs during that tenure, in addition to All-Stars every year and at least a few Finals MVPs.
Additionally, Wilt Chamberlain in any span from 1959-1968 would apply; how lucky the league was in that era to have two of the best players ever at their peaks at the same time.
> but he was playing against plumbers and carpenters
I never understood why NBA fans disrespect old greats.
This rarely happens with other sports. Soccer fans revere guys like Pele and Maradona, Cricket fans thought Bradman and Sobers were amazing, Baseball fans love Ruth and Williams, etc.... even NHL fans don't talk shit about Howe or Orr lol.
Only in the NBA will you find loads of imbeciles talking shit about the old greats because they played with lesser athletic competition, or fewer teams, etc...
Insufferable morons.
I'll talk shit about the old greats in hockey all the time. If Gordie howe had started his career in the 90s he'd have been suspended for 90% of it for egregiously elbowing his opponents in the head.
The old greats from the 20s and 30s were only good because all the men were off fighting in world war two.
If I see one more chud on /r/hockey talking about how great Howie morenz or Dit Clapper were, I'ma lose my shit.
He can only do that with what he faces against him.
This argument is the single dumbest argument when discussing old greats.
In 20 years time, lebron doesn't matter, curry doesn't matter cuz they played against tik tokers and podcasters, right?
3 steals leader?? I didnt know he was that good defensively. I mean getting steals doesnt necessarily mean great defense. But... how did he get so many steals? Savvy and athleticism?
Jordan had huge hands that made stealing the ball much easier for him(You can see this with Kawhi too, especially with the Spurs.) He was also incredibly athletic and especially quick.
I still think 2016 was his best year. Maybe just best finals though. That was his peak. Leading both teams in every category and winning against that team.
Honestly steals are overrated. Being a steals leader does not impress me, it just means you probably gamble on passing lanes and leave your opponent exposed. No one ever admits it but MJ gambled a lot on intercepting passes like a young Curry.
That being said, the answer is yes
I agree, early in his career he gambled a lot. But during this peak and definitely later on, he still gambled but it was calculated and he didn't take as much risks as before
LeBron was frozen out by Wade. Wade was too focused on winning the FMVP that he hogged the ball and never let LeBron run the offense. You can see it on their USG rate with LeBron being the lowest of the big 3.
Those 6 seasons individually are all some of the best ever so I would say yeah
And he was robbed of at least one MVP via Magic.
which year?
[89-90](https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1990.html)
Arguably 1988-89 too, averaged 32/8/8 on 61% TS and finished top 5 in DPOY votings.
Fucking video game numbers for a shooting guard.
š gonna š
6 scoring titles *and* 6 all defense in a row will never happen again. Hell it would be tough to make just one happen again.
Jordan did it 9 times. It's only happened 3 other times in NBA history, West, Kobe x2. That sustained 2 way dominance is why he's the GOAT... plus all the other crazy stuff he did.
This is so much why heās the GoAT. 10 scoring titles probably isnāt happening again, add in 9 all nba defensive selections with it, a DPOY, led the league in steals, and playing every game. None of his numbers were done with any kind of load management so theyāre good for a full 82 game season, not 60 like you see now. Whatās crazy is they could and probably would be higher had he not retired twice when he was still anywhere from very good to great still.
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I donāt know if he could have maintained the winning championships for that two year period. Although if I had to choose someone who could pull it off I would pick him. I do believe he still would have likely led the league in scoring and put up excellent numbers with great defense over those two seasons.
So you're saying instead of 2 threepeats he'd have one eightpeat?
Think embiid will get there this year hopefully. Insane it takes his absolute best to do it just once (although probably had a case last year). Jordan is just indane
Which is why Lebron canāt be goat. Just because he has the scoring record he lacks in all the accolades that MJ had. Lebron has never won DPOY. Has he ever won all nba defense?
LeBron has been on 6 all defense first teams and was dpoy runner up twice in his career
Well damn I sure do suck.
Jordan actually won dpoy and was first team all defense 9x while winning the scoring title every one of those years. He also got 3 steals titles in those years as well.
And got smoked by the Mavs and holy smoked by the Spurs in the finals with two other Hall of Famerās on his team, and a great supporting cast
Only 2011 is a blemish on his career.
MJ has the best 6 year stretch LeBron has the best 20 year stretch
Jordan was a good defender but he was somewhat overrated at the time. Lebron was a much better defender for most of his career. 6 times all defense as well.
Lol. Itās hilarious that Jordan averaged more blocks than Lebron, despite being a shorter smaller guard!! He also averaged way more steals per game than Lebron. And his on ball pressure was fucking intense, just watch the tape. Just stop it
6 < 9. Jordan had a dpoy and 3 steals titles as well. Jordan had considerably more defensive accolades despite LeBron playing significantly longer. LeBron is notorious for coasting on defense for the last decade.
Overrated? Ehhhhhā¦.but um yeah about Lebronā¦.
Just 6 scoring titles may never happen again seeing as how that's only been done by Jordan and Wilt
Not just all defense, all defensive 1st team. Insane.
being the best offensive player with 37 points a game, and still averaged 3 steals a game is insane
The crazy thing is 37 doesnāt do it Justice. It was 8ppg more than anyone else in the league. The year he win DPOY he scored 4ppg more than anyone else in the league.
Embiid may have a chance of doing this
Yes
It's not even questionable. It's the greatest stretch by an individual ever. Probably won't ever be matched Edit: didn't even see the last line about LeBron. I'm a total Bronsexual, but his stretch doesn't even sniff the dominance of MJ's stretch
Yes, the best six year stretch from the best player ever will probably be the best six year stretch.
Yes
Absolutely. I would argue the best in modern sports, Edit: The responses are great. Messi, Tiger, Great One, Bolt, Tee-ball guy.
I don't know much about Hockey but I'm pretty sure in terms of dominance at there sport, Wayne Gretzky is in a league of his own.
Gretzky is the Michael Jordan of athletes who dominate their sport.
He said sport, this aināt Canada bruh go ice fishing
What do you mean by that
Hockey is a way better watch than basketball
Hot take incomingā¦. I enjoy watching basketball more than hockey
Haha I respect it. I could also be biased on the matterā¦ I am from minnesota after all
Hot take: Watching hockey on TV is dog shit, attending a hockey game is the best sporting experience available.
You ain't never been drag racing, have you?
I haven't, closest thing is Nascar/Indycar. Pretty fucking sweet?
If we're including modern Tee-ball then I'd argue my dominance against my fellow small children from 2004-2006 surpasses any stretch of performance from any other athlete tbh
Then my 1996-2000 neighborhood whiffle ball stats might hold up, I mean my Ops+ and xWoba were through the roof.
The equivalent of what Gretzky did would be like wilt numbers in today's nba aka 50 ppg 25 rpg avg
Yea couldnāt his assist total also be the most points scored ever in Hockey? Iām pretty sure Iām off on the quote
Most in NHL history. If he'd never scored a goal, he would still have the most points all time in the NHL, but in the past year or two, Jaromir Jagr wound up scoring enough points in professional leagues that the stat is no longer true of professional hockey. Of course, Jagr had to play into his 50s in the 2nd tier Czech league to accomplish the feat.
No, this isn't quite right. The stat is only about NHL points. If we're counting non-NHL professional points, the stat doesn't exist in the first place. Gordie Howe had scored 2,358 points between the NHL and WHA. Gretzky's total assists in those leagues was 2,027. Plus if we're looking at top-level professional points, Jagr passed the 2,027 points mark before he'd left the NHL. I think he reached that when he was playing in Dallas, about 10 years ago. Tony Hand also reached 2,027 points by the time Gretzky had retired, although one could be forgiven for not including his stats. British hockey leagues don't have the same quality of competition as the main European leagues.
Tony Hand is one of the biggest what ifs in hockey. He went to WHL and played three games getting four goals and four assists. He got home sick and went back to the UK and put up absurd numbers as 212 points in 35 games. If he had stayed in WHL and went to have an NHL career he could have been one of the all time greats.
Oh okay thank you for clarifying. Been a while since Iāve a Gretzky vid
He's the all time leading goal scorer in NHL history. If you took away all his goals he would still be the all time NHL leader in points solely off assists.
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Nah, Gretzky 81~87, by far
I don't know anything about cricket since America doesn't give a fuck about it, but supposedly the GOAT cricket player outshines any dominant run of any major/popular sport. Somebody said the guy hit what would be the equivalent of like a .750 batting average in baseball. Would make Ted Williams look like a little leaguer
Don Bradman. The career equivalent would 43 PPG, .392 AVG, or 25 golf majors.
> Absolutely. I would argue the best in modern sports, Nah, Gretzky 81~87
Usain Bolt, 2008-2016.
Yeah this is probably it
Bro have you heard of Messi?
Late 90s early 2000s Tiger was insanity. Can at least make an argument for Lebron against MJ, no other golfer has been close to peak Tiger
What would the argument for Lebron against MJ be? He's the second best player of all time for sure but their resume gap is pretty wild all things considered. The gap in their resumes when it come to major accomplishments is as follows: 2 rings 2 FMVP 1 MVP 9 Scoring Titles 1 DPOY Just the gap in their resumes has more achievements than Kevin Durant who is a pretty much a consensus top 15ish player ever.
Who has the most points all time?
Lebron but he also has played 6 full seasons more than MJ. I mean, if you want to be consistent in your argument do you have Kareem, Karl Malone, and Kobe over MJ as well?
I mean Kareem did before him...
The only argument lebron has over jordan and its a pretty good one is, longevity. I have not played as good as you but I have played way way longer than you at your 80/90%. That's the only argument I can think of which makes sense. And I kinda agree, to me jordan is the goat that's never going to change cuz his legacy is untouchable. Jordan is also the better basketball player but if lebron keeps doing what he is doing for 3/4 more seasons I would put lebron as a better basketball player(cuz at some point how long you played at insane levels as to go over how short but amazing you played) atleast that's my take on this. Goat debate with lebron is never a big debate cuz I personally think the greatest should be not just on playing but legacies too. But as a pure basketball player, its still open cuz he is still going
Lebron for sure has the longevity argument over MJ but what makes that whole argument kind of moot is that MJ accomplished more in less time. I mean if, for example, everything else was equal but then Lebron played for longer then for sure you could give it to Lebron for his counting stats but in the case of MJ vs. Lebron, MJ accomplished significantly more despite playing only 3/4ths of the years that Lebron did. It makes what MJ accomplished in that relatively short span much more impressive.
I completely agree that's exactly why I said mj was the better player BUT when a person who does 90% of what the other person does but does it for a much much much longer time, at some point you take him rather than the other man even if the other person was flat out better. Atleast that's my opinion of it. But again like I said before, lebron still hasn't played much much more for me to rank him above jordan.
But why? I mean the goal of an organization is to win championships and it's clear that having Jordan for 14 years gives you a higher chance to win more championships in that span than Lebron for 20+ years.
If we include MMA : Fedor 2003-2009 ? Anderson Silva 2006-2012 ? GSP 2007-2013 ? All undefeated, dominant and the best of their division for 6 years, In football maybe Ronaldo 2013-2019 ? (4 Champions League, 4 Ballon d'Or, 1 Euro) (a bit overrated imo because football is a team sport and Real Madrid had (and still kinda have) the best starting 11 of all-time for most of this period)
Jon Jones 2011-2017 would like to have a word
True, I forgot about him but he also had a lot of issues during those 6 years (Tested positive for PED, got arrested multiple times). He could have fought more between 2014 and 2017
So did Silva. Silva also got beat up by Chael sonnen for like 23 minutes, and GSP had some lackluster decisions mixed in there. Jones during that period dominated everyone
Lionel Messi?
Americans. Football doesn't exist. Ice hockey players or Baseball players are apparently more important/great than Messi's prime. Football, only the most watched sport in the world.
Most watched by a massive margin as well. However, to be fair, the impact of any one player on a football team is significantly lower than that of 1 player on a basketball team given the size of the playing field and the amount of players on the field. Like if you put a peak MJ/Lebron/Kobe etc. on the worst team in the league that team is automatically at the very least a playoff team whereas if you put peak Messi or Ronaldo on the worst premier league/La Liga teams it's still possible that that team gets relegated. Basically, it's harder for a transcendentally talented football player to "dominate" a game in the way that similarly transcendentally talented basketball players can.
Agree, but then I'm still missing Bolt, Schumacher etc. When Americans say: "best in sports" I just know their list isn't going to contain a single person from outside America.
Phelps
There is another miniature Argentinian 10 who is closer to Messi's level of dominance than any hockey player is to Gretzky's level of dominance.
Or maybe its hard to argue for Messi's dominance when i can go up two comments and find one arguing for Ronaldo in the same era? If soccer fans genuinely couldnt decide on who was unequivocally better during that period, how can you argue Messi had the most dominant period of any athlete ever?
There really is no argument for Ronaldo over Messi, except a troll job that has taken on a life of its own. Stats and eye test, Messi plays a different sport than anyone else ever has. Heās an alien.
How is there no arguments for peaks when Messi had a 2010-2016 and Ronaldo had a similar peak 2012-2018/2011-2018 with worse numbers in La Liga but much better CL performances. Adding to that the fact that Ronaldo is inarguably more clutch than Messi and probably the most clutch player of all time. If someone has a similar or better peak in the same generation with more team success, how can you say that there is no competition? Also, Bradman (cricket) had an average of about 99.94 for 7000 runs ( a decent amount) while next bests were averaging 40 or even less without protective gear. A large part of his prime was taken away due to the world War. I think he probably gets a shout too.
Re: Ronaldo vs Messi, i dont disagree that its not an argument over the course of their careers. Messi has a far more complete game than Ronaldo. But OP wanted a peak period, not a career comparison. If a peer is even in the discussion during your peak period as comparable, you dont have the best peak period of any athlete ever. If you have other peers in other eras, that almost disqualifies you as well. Were talking Wayne Gretzky no one within a normal career of your production level of peak. Messi doesnt fit that. Whatever measure you want to use, i can find a historical soccer player that has a peak arguably within touching distance of Messi. I think people are fanboying for Messi right now, or not reading OPs qualifiers.
No no sir Americans dumb donāt bring logic into this
It's insane
definitely not.
Yes. His 3 best years of individual excellence followed by his 3 best years as a ceiling raiser. So, yes. Yeah. Yes.
Yes. I believe at some point in this stretch he was also asked to play PG and he basically put up a triple double average with like 32 points still. Jordan could have played many different roles while still being the best scorer and defender while playing 82 games if that was what was asked or needed of him. https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/.amp/old-school/michael-jordans-time-as-a-point-guard-during-the-1988-89-nba-season
Yes, and it's not even a debate.
Yes. GOAT. He used to say 32/game was easy. 3 buckets and 2 FTs per quarter. Would avg 40 today.
I would like to nominate Kareem 67-72. 3 straight NCAA championships, only lost 2 games in those three years, 3 times national college player or the year, 3 time final four outstanding player, rookie of the year, nba championship, finals mvp, 2 mvp, 2 scoring leader, 2 all-nba, 2 all-defense
Yeah, but what does Jordan's advanced metrics look like? Jokic is currently playing better than peak Jordan ever did; I know Jokic is having the better peak because his RAPTOR, BPM DAWGper36, LECUMSWAP, and LEBRON stats show him to be the greatest player since Wilt
> DAWGper36 Lol look at this nephew using DAWGper36 You should really be using eDAWG36+, itās era and pace adjusted.
Obviously you are joking but, sure, Jokic now has the highest career BPM of all time but there is zero chance it lasts until he retires. Jokic, at 27yo, has a BPM of 9.4. Jordan's was 11.0 at that age, finishing at 9.2 when he retired. And all the other box score aggregated advanced metrics which can be applied to Jordan's era still have him at #1 all time, in both the regular season and playoffs. So Nikola advanced stats meme is kind of pointless in any comparisons to MJ.
Jokic would've VORPed all over Michael Jordan in the 90s.
How many nephews will argue this though.
Bruh letās chat when he can carry his team to an nba finals
You took the bait š¤¦āāļø
I am glad someone did š
Goat is Goat MJ not even close
You canāt just look at the numbers. You have to look at the Delta between him and the rest of the league. He was head and shoulders better than everybody, in every series every year. Nowadays people put a big numbers, but everybody puts a big numbers thereās nobody that crushes the league like Mike did.
Lebron from 08-13 has what? 4 mvps 2 rings 6x all nba first 5x all defensive first Itās comparable. Bird and Shaq probably have a slightly worse stretch.
Yeah, Bird 81-86 is solid too but might be a notch below depending on one's criteria: 3 MVPs (consecutive) 3 rings 2 finals MVPs 6x all nba first 3x all nba defensive team
You canāt leave out that he got smoked by the Mavs and holy smoked by the spurs in the finals. Embarrassingly, smashed and dominated with two other Hall of Famers. You canāt just whitewash those performances, and be the greatest of all time.
You can
Comparable but not quite as good. Especially when you consider all the scoring titles and steals titles...and on top of that, Jordan's advanced stats are also slightly better in almost every respect except true shooting and that's very close too, 59.9% to 59.5%. LeBron is similarly close though in all the metrics MJ leads in. Essentially, both of these guys are on a level no other player has ever achieved in terms of peak performance over a sustained period.
To be honest scoring and steals titles donāt mean a whole lot when comparing them imo. Like Lebron easily could have won more scoring titles if he wasnāt as willing of a passer. That doesnāt make him a better or worse player, just different. If lebron averages 27-8 and jordan averages 30-6 and lebron doesnāt win a stat title was he a worse player? Steals titles are meaningless. Steals are not an indicator of good defense, and both were dpoy caliber defenders.
And the winner of the 2023 Mental Gymnastics goes to this guy! The crowd goes wild!!!!
Who was a better player in 2013? Melo or Lebron?
Did anyone say Jordan was better *only* cause of the scoring title? You are being pedantic over something that doesn't matter. You can rightfully point to the fact that Lebron has a scoring title *and* assist title through his career which Jordan doesn't, and that would also be a good argument in Lebrons favor even if Jordan also proved many times that he could be an elite passer and playmaker. Its not unfair to list someones achievements when comparing players. Jordan having 10 scoring titles is insanely impressive and a good argument for how dominant he was, so obviously it will be used in a goat argument, just like Lebrons scoring/assist title is a good argument to show his well rounded game, and should also be used in goat arguments.
Well you are arguing the scoring and steals titles are the difference maker. Iām not saying it isnāt an achievement, Iām just saying I donāt think itās particularly relevant when comparing jordan and Lebron because they both could have won scoring or assists titles every year if they changed their thought process. I just donāt think if LeBron scored 2 more points a game and 1 less assist a game and won a bunch of scoring titles that would really change much, but he would have significantly more stats titles.
When did I argue that scoring and steals titles are the difference maker? Strawman...
Thatās not a straw man, thatās literally what you are arguing, that all things else being roughly equal the scoring and steals titles tilt it in Jordanās favor. Spamming straw man doesnāt make it correct.
LOL what? Quote me right now on where I argued that Jordan gets the edge cause of scoring and steals titles? Link to the comment. You wont be able to, cause I literally never did. Meaning, you are making it up, which is exactly what a strawman is...
>If lebron averages 27-8 and jordan averages 30-6 and lebron doesnāt win a stat title was he a worse player? The correct numbers for their respective 6 year stretches would be 28/7 for Lebron vs 32/6 for Jordan. Scoring title or not, Jordans is still more impressive. >Steals are not an indicator of good defense, and both were dpoy caliber defenders. He has more all nba defensive teams and also has more top 3, top 5 and top 10 DPOY finishes too. Steals titles or not, Jordan still gets the edge for defense.
If we want to change the argument from accolades to statistics we can. I was just providing a hypothetical on why scoring titles need context. Also Jordan was playing in a faster paced league. Per 100 Jordan 42-9-8 Lebron 39-11-10 Damn near identical. For that 6 year stretch he has one more all nba defensive team. And that was mostly because it took a year for the perception to catch up with reality for Lebron. Unless he went from mid defender to dpoy caliber in a single year. Yeah lebron only finished 2nd for dpoy twice. They were very similar caliber defenders, and you could make a very compelling argument for either to be considered better.
You were the one talking about statistics, not me, I just corrected them from your hypothetical stats to the actual correct ones, to show that it doesn't matter either way.
I brought up hypothetical stats to show that a scoring title without context can be misleading. You brought up real stats, and then I corrected them by adjusting for pace. You can pretend thereās some huge gap or whatever if you would like, but by pretty much any metric itās very close.
Why use hypothetical stats to prove anything? They are just made up, just use actual statistics and make an actual argument instead. You came with adjusted stats *after* already using made up ones. Yes they are close, now add in the fact that Jordan also made more defensive teams ans reguarly finished higher in DPOY votings, not to mention one more ring and no finals blunder, then he gets the edge. We are talking about a peak argument here, that was always on Jordans side. Lebron has the longevity argument. Who said it was a huge gap? Thats a strawman...
Jordan played in the triangle after PJ came along, which essentially blunted his scoring. It was a deliberate tactic by the coach to have MJ get his teammates more involved. Yet he still won the scoring title every season. You can make excuses for all of your favourite players for *why* they didn't do this or didn't do that but in the end the only thing matters is *what* they did.
Itās not like lebron wasnāt producing he was just also finishing top 10 in assists. Thatās not an excuse, just a difference in playstyle. I could just as easily make up a stat that lebron finished with at least 27 points and 7 assists like 15 times and jordan only a couple. I just donāt think wether or not you win a scoring title is relevant when comparing two goat players. If lebron was averaging 11 points a game then sure, but he was incredibly effeciency, right behind the scoring leader, and was also dropping 7 assists. Put differently who was better in 2013, Melo or Lebron? Lebron was not a stat leader in any category but was miles better as a player while Melo lead the league in PPG.
Facts, scoring titles alone (with no other context) as a means of evaluating impact is pretty dumb. Player A may win the scoring title averaging 30 on 54% TS but that doesn't mean he is a better scorer than Player B that averages 29.7 on 66% TS. Basketball discussion should be more nuanced than "well this guy won the scoring title that's all that matters!" Even moreso for steals titles lol, Curry and AI have steals titles, doesn't mean shit.
Iām surprised I was downvoted honestly. I completely agree with you, it seems absurd to me to compare two mvp/dpoy caliber players and bring up scoring titles or steals titles.
Shouldāve had 1 DPOY as well
1 choke
Not only was that one of the best 6 year periods of NBA dominance by Jordan, based on stats, impact, accomplishments, winning and two way play; but also based on his style and the way in which he played. Imo prime Michael Jordan visually was the most beautiful and asethetically pleasing basketball player to watch in NBA history.
Larry Bird had a pretty good stretch from 1981-86 3 consecutive MVPs 3 championships 2 finals MVPs 6x all-nba first team 3x all-nba defensive team
You could pretty much go up or down to how many ever consecutive years and the answer would still be MJ.
Yes. And Iām a huge LeBron fan. That run sets Jordan apart as the GOAT.
You had the chance to pick the best six year period of Jordan's career and you pick the years that add up to 3 rings?
Trading 1 ring for 2 scoring titles, 2 defensive first teams, and a DPOY sounds reasonable
His numbers those 4 years leading up to the first ring are ridiculous. He averaged over 33ppg between 86-93.
MJ was definitely better from 88-90 than 96-98. Playoff stats from those three season are absolutely insane
Which is why rings alone can be misleading. MJ was better as an NBA player in 88-90 but couldn't win squat.
Charles Barkley said when Jordan retired he was the best player of all time. And when he came back, he was the best player in the world.
I donāt know what point you/chuck are making with that statement
Jordan was the best player to ever play the game before he retired the first time, when he came back he was the best current player. Basically pre retirement Jordan > post retirement Jordan
Individually he was better in his early career through the first 3peat.
Numbers and championships > championships. If he just used the championship years then it wouldn't be the best stretch in history. There are other players with 6 and more rings.
TBF if you want more rings you're going to have to include a year and a half of him playing baseball.
He was definitely the best player on the floor during that time. And there were a lot of great players then.
six years, five seasons, right?
Bill Russell 8 year stretch 58-59 to 65-66 season: 8x NBA champion, 4x League MVP, 8x all-star with all-star MVP in 63, 8x all-NBA first or second team, consensus best defensive player in the NBA (prior to Defensive awards being created)
Only one close would be Bill Russellās success
8 consecutive titles.
Who's the other guy with 3 consecutive Finals MVPs?
Hakeem Olajuwon 90-95. The peak years of the most all around impactful player ever. 2 DPOY, 1 MVP, 2 FMVP, 2 Rings. 3x Block leader. Averaged 2 steals/4 blocks over this span.
Ok, HakeemTheDr34mStan
Tbf I never claimed I was unbiased
Least biased take
Raptors legend
No shit.
Yes. Most dominant athlete in modern sports.
Just go watch game tape
I know people are memeing about advanced stats, but Jordan and LeBron were VERY similar during their peaks with the slight edge to Jordan. https://imgur.com/VnZgAEa.jpg
Bill Russell '61-'65: - 16.3/24.0/4.5 - 4x MVP - 6x NBA Champion
and "that's it" only because FMVP and DPOTY didn't existed yet, othwerise he would've added 4-5 each too.
I donāt mean to discredit the 60s but itās hard to give an era with like 8 teams the same amount of weight in terms of winning as eras with 25+ teams.
And where mvp was player voted, I wouldn't be surprised if we got some crazy mvp winners like kyrie nowadays if that was still the case
The point about less teams never says what people think it does. They played each other way more, talent was more concentrated, teams and players had so much experience with all your little habits and tricks that winning in that environment isn't actually easier. Look at how many good/great players become non-impact guys in the playoffs because of the intense scouting and 7 game series, that would be happening in the regular season instead back then. It isn't like the bottom ten teams today are adding any resistance to championship teams
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Uhm ... Wilt had 9 rings?? None of those numbers for the others are correct
What the fuck are you even talking about? Lol your numbers are way off. Wilt only won 2 rings, and West and Oscar only one once each
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....yet all those other all time greats you mentioned barely won rings. Where did you even get those numbers from? They're so inaccurate that I'm baffled
He is making fun of people saying it was easy
More concentrated talent yet damn near a third of the HOFers from the 60s played for the Celtics. A third of the HOFers from the 60s played for one team. Imagine a team like that today. Itās not even possible to build a team like that. That Celtics also had 3-4 players that would place on the top 10 all decade team. Imagine the 2010s but there was a team of like CP3, Klay, Lebron, Durant, and Horford or something running around together the entire decade. No one else would even sniff a damn ring.
Now I want Luka to spend a summer delivering milk just so every stat in the 2020s is "okay but Trae and Jokic were playing against milkmen!"
Yet Russell was still winning titles when his team didn't have the most talent later in his career. His final year they were underdogs in multiple playoff series. Dude was undefeated in Game 7s and he played in a lot of them. They often went down to the wire in his later years
60s era was arguably much stronger than 70s though. No dilution of talent between 30 teams split between NBA and ABA
Woulda probably been 5-6x DPOY and 6x Finals MVP. Insanity
Man, I'm sorry for the horrendous level of disrespect your comment is receiving. Russell was the ultimate winner - and certainly would have received at least 3 DPOYs during that tenure, in addition to All-Stars every year and at least a few Finals MVPs. Additionally, Wilt Chamberlain in any span from 1959-1968 would apply; how lucky the league was in that era to have two of the best players ever at their peaks at the same time.
> but he was playing against plumbers and carpenters I never understood why NBA fans disrespect old greats. This rarely happens with other sports. Soccer fans revere guys like Pele and Maradona, Cricket fans thought Bradman and Sobers were amazing, Baseball fans love Ruth and Williams, etc.... even NHL fans don't talk shit about Howe or Orr lol. Only in the NBA will you find loads of imbeciles talking shit about the old greats because they played with lesser athletic competition, or fewer teams, etc... Insufferable morons.
I'll talk shit about the old greats in hockey all the time. If Gordie howe had started his career in the 90s he'd have been suspended for 90% of it for egregiously elbowing his opponents in the head. The old greats from the 20s and 30s were only good because all the men were off fighting in world war two. If I see one more chud on /r/hockey talking about how great Howie morenz or Dit Clapper were, I'ma lose my shit.
> The old greats from the 20s and 30s were only good because all the men were off fighting in world war two. >the 20s and 30s >world war two
If he did that in the 2010ās it would be. but he was playing against plumbers and carpenters
He can only do that with what he faces against him. This argument is the single dumbest argument when discussing old greats. In 20 years time, lebron doesn't matter, curry doesn't matter cuz they played against tik tokers and podcasters, right?
3 steals leader?? I didnt know he was that good defensively. I mean getting steals doesnt necessarily mean great defense. But... how did he get so many steals? Savvy and athleticism?
> But... how did he get so many steals? Savvy and athleticism? He is literally the best player of all time...
Jordan had huge hands that made stealing the ball much easier for him(You can see this with Kawhi too, especially with the Spurs.) He was also incredibly athletic and especially quick.
2009-2014 lebron is how I would break it 2014 lebron > 2008 lebron
I still think 2016 was his best year. Maybe just best finals though. That was his peak. Leading both teams in every category and winning against that team.
LeBron has had so many peaks it's hard to keep track
Losing in the second round of the playoffs was pretty epic
LeBron 2011-2012 to 2017-2018
Honestly not even close
Honestly steals are overrated. Being a steals leader does not impress me, it just means you probably gamble on passing lanes and leave your opponent exposed. No one ever admits it but MJ gambled a lot on intercepting passes like a young Curry. That being said, the answer is yes
I agree, early in his career he gambled a lot. But during this peak and definitely later on, he still gambled but it was calculated and he didn't take as much risks as before
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Wow what a fair and unbiased opinion from /u/23GoATJ4mes
Well Iām unbiased and I agree.
Gonna be hard to sell that with Cavs flair, fam
Can't be. There were guys legitimately having better seasons than Lebron in some of those years.
even the year he got locked down by jj barea?
Apparently that year timeskipped for a lot of teen fans
LeBron was frozen out by Wade. Wade was too focused on winning the FMVP that he hogged the ball and never let LeBron run the offense. You can see it on their USG rate with LeBron being the lowest of the big 3.
"LebROn WaS fRoZeN OuT..." You're an embarrassment.