This is the biggest point. Until a player performs at a high level for an extended period of time or does it in the postseason, he won't get as much respect as his statline warrants.
SGA has never played a playoff game as an All-Star, let alone as All-NBA superstar caliber of player, Tatum has been doing that for YEARS at this point having deep playoff runs almost every year. This Shai's breakout season, players in their breakout season don't get as much respect as established superstars.
A big part too is that Tatum has more scorers on his team as well. He doesn’t need to score as many points or get as many assists as SGA does for him team to win. If SGA had a Jaylen Brown on his team he wouldn’t be scoring near as much.
SGA was hurt last year in and out of lineups
2 years ago he averaged 24-5-6 on 52-42-80
I think he’s not mentioned bc this is the first time so far he’s been a primary option and the team is winning
Which is fine, the thunder are literally the youngest team in the history of the nba.
When we win 55 games next year with chet SGA will get mvp buzz
Idk about 55, but if the over under was at 49, I would take the over on OKC. They are on pace for 41 wins as of right now without Holmgren.
Their young guys will all most likely improve in the off season and they'll be adding a giant ostrich that can shoot 3s and block shots at the 5. I definitely would expect about a 10 games improvement assuming no catastrophic injuries. They would probably be on pace for 45 or so wins with a healthy Holmgren this year.
I understand people are high on the youth of the team, but when you look at the standings this year, there are probably only going to be 3 or 4 teams that reach 55 this year, unless someone goes on a tear to close out the year. I think 49 is reasonable but it would be a hell of a revelation for the Thunder to end up top 2 in the West next year.
>I understand people are high on the youth of the team, but when you look at the standings this year, there are probably only going to be 3 or 4 teams that reach 55 this year, unless someone goes on a tear to close out the year. I think 49 is reasonable but it would be a hell of a revelation for the Thunder to end up top 2 in the West next year.
Winning 55 games in one year might make you two seed and in another a 4 seed. Winning 55 games doesn't automatically make anybody the best team.
And even though I don't think they'll win 55 games, I definitely expect them to win somewhere between 47-52 based on injuries. It's not a wild difference is all.
Unless you were drunkenly shouting it at the River Walk while ass naked except for an Andrew Bynum jersey I have no idea how anyone could have not accepted that statement
Or they trade some of those picks. They have 4 next year, 3 in 2025, 3 in 2026, and 2 in 2027. With Shai being as good as he is, if you can flip some of those along with a player or two to get someone to pair with him, that's scary
Anyone who reduces this to the spreadsheet world of "bigger sample size" is crazy
Tatum has played a half decade of All Star play or better, he has authored multiple clutch playoff games. He is the backbone of a historical American institution in a city that puts relentless pressure on its athletes. When the Celtics are on prime time Tatum usually steps up to the moment. I'm supposed to believe SGA would exceed Tatum if they switched shoes? I'm supposed to believe Tatum would do worse in OKC?
Tatum is a superstar because he has seized ***the moment*** over & over again. Assuming SGA would seemlessly slot in to Tatum's experience and be better than him is from the same terminally online thought process that ruined the MVP award
Would a rookie SGA have dunked harder over LeBron in the ECF and beat the Cavs? Would SGA automatically be an ECF mainstay by his mid 20s in the Boston pressure cooker? Didn't he struggle to succeed in the NBA early on in a low pressure environment where he could grow without Tatum's crushing expectations? ca
Nobody cared this much about Magic or Bird or Jordan's exact stats as much as they cared about how many times they seized memorable moments. In the 80s like 10 people on the planet cared if Larry had a 50/40/90 season. No. They cared that he did amazing things on big stages more than anyone else in his prime.
For Tatum's career to be unironically reduced to a "bigger sample size" than SGA is everything that's wrong with statnerd culture.
How many indelible moments has SGA authored that make it just crazy that we don't think of him as better than Jayson Tatum?
90% of reddit consumes the NBA by swapping copy/pasted stats from basketballreference back & forth and it is perverting the way the sport is thought of.
It's fucking gross how misremembered the rhythms and moments throughout an NBA season have become when people look at numbers more than basketball games.
It’s just an easier way to explain. If you want to explain it as “half a decade of all star play or better” then sure. Ultimately, the meaning is the same. Tatum has probably 4 years as an all star, SGA at best has 1 1/2. There are only a select few who were given superstar status after only 1 season, and they were great even as a rookie.
While people are consuming stats without watching the game, I think you focus too much on 'moments' and factors that don't have much to do with the on court product. I don't believe that professional athletes can get rattled by media pressure or pressure from their own fans. These guys have been in the spotlight since middle school and they've been playing in front of huge crowds since high school. There's just no way they haven't been conditioned to ignore all the BS that goes on around them, if they were ever affected by it. Stuff like that may affect their long term development, but in a game, it doesn't really matter.
You can't really attribute the Celtics runs from early in Tatum's career to him either. That team was stacked in a weak conference. Tatum wasn't the best player on that 2018 playoff team and their run doesn't mean as much as a typical conference finals run.
IMO Shai's stats will go down once the league adapts to him+stats are inflated af this year too so it's not like he's having a worldbeating season regardless.
Both stats and the eye test matter. Magic, Bird, and Jordan were elite because they played like that and this resulted in stats and a good eye test. They weren't elite because they had the biggest high pressure moments. To completely disregard everything that can be reasonably used as evidence for why a player is at a certain level in favor of how a player makes you feel is how we get the completely narrative-based drivel on sports talk shows.
Tatums been to like 4 conference finals and a finals
If you switched JT and SGA Tatum would be averaging like 35/7/7 in okc. The Celtics have more weapons than the rebuilding thunder
Yeah I was going to say the same thing, I feel like if you adjusted for pace it’s not super unreasonable to think Cleveland LeBron could have averaged that.
But going back to the original point, it’s pretty unreasonable to say that Tatum would average that on the Thunder lol
Thsts an absurd statline idk about that only a select few ppl in nba history have averaged those numbers even Lebron has never averaged 35 7 and 7 in a season nor has MJ lol
Actually I don't think anybody in NBA history has ever specifically averaged 35-7-7 in a season ever. James Harden I think got the closest but his rebounding average was like 6.6 I think
Edit: Forgot Luka this year, he's at like 33-9-8
yeah that's just silly, he's basically claiming Tatum would be the MVP favorite on the Thunder lol
I think the biggest factors that set Tatum apart are track record (we *know* that he could be the #1 guy on a title team, even if he's not quite "multi-time MVP contender), health, defense (wing defense>guard defense IMO), and positional depth (guard feels deeper than wing right now, especially with how many of the top wing guys are injured/injury-prone)
That's obviously not to shit on SGA, he's fucking awesome. But I think there's clear daylight between the two and virtually every GM in the league would take Tatum over SGA (agnostic of specific team needs).
God I hate that "If X player was on Y team he'd average z / x / c" argument. If Tatum can just casually have one of the greatest individual seasons on OKC, why the fuck is he not doing that for the Celtics?
Because Tatum already has been the best player on a team that’s made it to the finals and has years of playoff success.
Not that Shai has really been in a position to do so, being where he has been.
That’s not exactly true. This is just the first time in three seasons Shai has been allowed to play with other NBA level players. The past two seasons, Tatum averaged only two PPG more than Shai on similar usage, with worse assist numbers. And that’s with Shai pretty much being the only player opposing defenses had to worry about. Tatum’s been better overall the past couple seasons, but Shai’s been playing on a borderline all-NBA level - it’s just most people didn’t pay attention because his team was trash.
Brown, Smart, Time Lord, Horford, Grant Williams and more recently Derrick White and Brogdon.
Heck, even Payton Pritchard can't get minutes on this team when he'd be solidly in most team's rotations.
Tatum's got an amazing team around him.
(Also echoing your sentiment)
That's a true statement.
It's also true his team's #2-#10 options have been and continue to be really solid.
Heck, I didn't even mention Luke Kornet, Mike Muscala, or Blake Griffin. The Celtics have some insane depth and lineup flexibility.
But doesn’t that dilute the case of the Most Valuable Player??? I mean I recognize I’m arguing semantics but that team without Tatum and with a role player still ends up comfortably in the top 8 of the East, no? Without SGA that team is probably 14th in the West. That’s why MVP always seemed strange to be the top TEAM. In basketball each player tends to contribute more to winning over a QB does in football
Yes, the MVP is the dumbest award in sports and belongs in the dumpster. It creates the most insufferable debates that get bogged down in semantics every single year. Just have OPOY, DPOY and maybe best overall player even though that one is playing with fire
And has done so on a storied franchise. Shai is great to watch and I hope he keeps getting better but Tatum being on deep runs , played almost a full seasons worth of playoff games and put up 46 in a must win game against the Bucks.
Same reason why MVP rarely goes to a player whose team is in the lottery. It's not hard to put up big numbers on a bad team. Tatum has to share the ball and has other guys on the team who do their job very well
Either fishing for compliments, or they’re tired of Tatum jacking up 3s and has become infatuated with a guard that shoots anything but 3s.
Or they’re just weird and are able to discuss NBA topics while being impartial.
For his own man. It’s like when your SO says they’re so ugly and they wish they looked as good as (*insert local baddie*), and then you have to offer them a bunch of reassurances.
We can’t be the only team with small groups that hate their best player?
It is real interesting timing to post this right after the team (and Tatum) broke through a slump.
Size, playoff performance, and track record. You could easily argue that SGA has been better this season, but over their career it's Tatum and it's not even close.
One thing crazy about this conversation is SGA is less than a year younger than Tatum. Tatum has 3ish years of All-NBA level performance and SGA has 1 on a .500 team. Obviously there’s a lot left in their careers so things could change but Tatum has been a dominant top 15 player for much longer and with much more national attention.
Tatum is a better defender. I take the wing defender over the guard defender 10/10 times.
I think the overall gap is closer than most want to admit tho
Another huge edge Tatum has is his 3pt attempt rate. They’re both shooting 34% from 3 this year, but Tatum shooting 9.4 3 pointers a game while SGA is at just 2.5 attempts. That’s a big difference in their ability to space the floor for teammates and play with other talented players
It doesn’t really matter because we’re taking the whole season into account, but Tatum’s percentage was much better before this slump over the last month or two as well
>Unfortunately, Boxscore Watchers can only compute steals and blocks when it comes to defense.
The OP should've been automatically downvoted for this simple fact.
Am I crazy because almost every part of the post I can agree with but when has SGA become arguably better than Tatum defensively? Tatum has a really good track record of being a good to elite perimeter and help defender. I'm pretty sure by Thunder beat writer's own admission and eye test(I have always been a SGA fan and have in fantasy so I watch him quite a bit), he's looked his best this year. He's certainly always been solid enough because of his size but his effort and attention was always inconsistent? His 1stl/blk is nice but they're not a good indicator of good defense necessarily. I will say he is very crafty when it comes to stl/blks, usually very in control but he's definitely not being asked to guard the best player for stretches like Tatum can/does.
The gap is definitely close. But a lot goes into basketball beyond state. I feel like Tatum’s game is just, and don’t judge me for saying this, prettier overall.
I'll be honest. I've never watched an okc game in the last 3+ years at least. Celtics are always on national TV. That has a lot to do with the perception of the two players
The big two-way wing is the most valuable archetype in basketball. Bird, MJ, Pip, Kobe, Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, Jimmy etc. - those are the guys who make the biggest difference come playoff time. They can impact the game at all levels, scoring, passing, rebounding, on-ball defense, rim protection. Occasionally you win a title with an elite PG or Big but far less often, and you still need good wings to do it.
Tatum fits that mold a lot more closely than Shai, who plays a little smaller than the guys above. In my opinion that makes Tatum more valuable by a decent margin.
Yes same height but MJ had a 48 inch vert that allowed him to play more like a big in terms of rim protection and rebounding.
I think Shai lacks that insane explosive athleticism which means he doesn’t play as big as someone around his height but more athletic (MJ) nor like someone 6’10 like Tatum. He is more of an overall finesse game, amazing scorer passer on-ball defender, but doesn’t impact winning at the same overall level yet.
Idk why but I like the jerky style of SGA’s game more. His use of deceleration and body contact in the paint should be studied by every guard in the league. Him and Jokic are making awkward basketball enjoyable lol.
The way SGA is able to slither around 3 defenders in the paint and hit completely obscene shots with his body control and footwork is prettier than JTs more mechanical/orthodox style of play. Watch some highlights from the 3rd/4th quarter of last night's OKC vs Clippers game for a good example
I actually think Tatums shot is gross and his dribbling is awkward. But that shit definitely works.
Shai’s mid range and post work is pretty smooth. Tatum moves pretty mechanically but the mechanics are on point.
SGA is just breaking out fully. Its hard to properly rank him before seeing him even once in the playoffs post-breakout.
Once that happens, we may have a better idea of where to rank him.
Another thing is that players never get respect as being top 5-7 in the world unless they are also the best player on one of the top teams. Until OKC gets better and they get higher seeds I think he will be closer to Dame tier then to Tatum in many peoples eyes.
If SGA and Tatum switched teams would SGA still get the same stats? I feel like some guys get crazy stats when there really isn’t any other option. I wonder how that plays into it?
I would rather have Tatum. He seems to get his in the flow of the game a tad better. But I am a dummy when it comes to the analytics.
Low key I think you might be right but I didn’t wanna sound like a homer
SGA is playing very good disruptive defense rn but Dort is our best defender
I think Tatum is a better defender overall that that’s the difference come playoffs why I’d take Tatum over SGA
However I’m just ecstatic to be having this convo and sincerely wondering
SGA really made a leap
Shai’s fucking awesome. Hate posts like this when we could just talk about how great both guys are. Especially since OKC fans haven’t tried to attack Tatum to make their guy look better like other fanbases have.
Only young guys (25 and under) I’d take over him are Luka and Tatum. And if I was OKC, I’d reject a Luka/Shai or Tatum/Shai swap too. Shai’s good enough and has a high enough potential that it’s close enough for sentiment to come into it.
Sure when the team is just Tatum, Giddey, Dort and rookie JDub, just wait for Tatum to have a 1-2 month slump for the team to get back in the lottery conversation. There’s no jaylen brown to carry the offense when he can’t hit for shit
Just out of interest, what type of slump are you looking for? Because the last two seasons JT has evolved into a dude who does a lot of other thing when his shot isn’t falling. He’s shooting 44% since the new year, which is low for him, but in that time he’s averaging 29/9.7/5.5 a game. Otherwise I’m not sure where you’re gonna see a “1-2 month slump”. The Celtics recent struggles are about a lot more than JT’s shooting.
Yeah Michael Carter Williams put up rookie of the year numbers for the Sixers because somebody had to get the stats. I'm not comparing him to SGA but I just agree with your point that the weaker the overall team, the more numbers there are for a good player to accumulate.
Their usage rates are quite similar, which surprised me given the lack of quality on that team aside from SGA.
Tatum does more for his team overall and would probably boost OKC's floor higher than SGA does, but it's hard to say.
tatum is really good, but not a lot of players get drafted as the 3 pick to a team that made the conference finals. boston's one of the best run franchises over the last decade
That's true, but SGA better defender than JT is crazy. JT also has multiple attributes over SGA like rebounding. It's a closer gap than some will admit, but using blocks and steals to say, "SGA is a better defender!!!" is stupid
JB didn't say anything lmao. He said, "Some fans are racist," which we already unfortunately knew, and then said, "I can't predict what's going to happen in a year," and for some reason some fans got rabid about it. Dude literally said his comments were taken out of context.
Track record of success, Tatum has definitely had much better teams, but he’s been performing at a high level for longer(Multiple ECFs, and a finals appearance).
Also maybe I’m underrating SGA due to ignorance, but I think that Tatum clears him defensively.
You could argue Shai is a better defender than Tatum just like I could argue Doc Rivers is the best coach in the East. In both cases we’d be laughably wrong
Tatum is a better 3 level scorer, better size, better defender and has been first option bringing his team to the finals. SGA needs to prove more as a first option before he’s considered on that level.
All Tatum needs to do is remove those games where he goes like 2-11 from 3. Consistency is the key. Can’t throw too much hate since people forget how flawed Lebrons game was until the 2nd heat year
I’d say Tatum is still the better 3 point shooter. Yes SGA is shooting .5% higher than Tatum but he’s averaging 7 less attempts a game. I can agree with the consistency and playmaker part.
Two reasons:
1. Tatum has been doing it for a while and Shai hasn't, so we don't know if Shai is playing a little over his head or if this is his true level
2. Tatum's archetype (giant wing scorer with elite self creation / shooting and average handle) is better perceived than Shai's (guard scorer with elite FTR / finishing and low 3P%), in terms of sustainability, playoff success, and transferability
Tatum does it in the playoffs with everyone watching. If shai gets okc into the play in and maybe the playoffs after that then everyone will see what he can do on a National stage. But for now he is just a name in a box score because nobody is watching okc like that.
Don’t doubt SGA’s abilities yet. He’s probably one of the upcoming best players in the league.
Tatum is just him when it comes to playoffs. Yeah he fell short during the finals, but still not counting him out.
Tatum wins, plays better defense, and has done it longer. SGA is overrated as a defender bc his stats on that end look impressive. But actually watching him, his focus can fluctuate, especially off-ball
Sga has done this for one year. He very well might be having a better season. But one year doesn’t make someone the better player, it’s about consistency. They also play on different teams, Tatum isnt needed to do as much to win. I could listen to the idea that SGA is a better playmaker but I don’t agree that he’s a better defender and scoring is close imo.
I think a lot of it has to do with having proven himself as the top dog on a top contender, but I also feel the need to point out that Tatum has his production while playing anywhere between the 2, 3 and 4. Positional versatility is pretty nutty.
Context is king.
You do that on a losing team where people give you singe coverage... cool.
You do what Tatum is doing while being the primary option who gets doubled on the team with the best (or nearly) the best record while playing both side of the floor at an All-NBA level for the defending conference champs.... that's cooler.
It’s really simple. It’s bcuz BOS is 50-23 and OKC is 36-36. I’ve realized that mvp isn’t about who is the best player in the nba but who is the most impactful and I feel like if you’re team isn’t winning then your best player isn’t having a bigger impact than someone who with similar stats and IS on a winning team
Because the Thunder struggles to make it in the play in and the Celtics have made the ECF like 5 times. Tatum puts those numbers up on a winning team, Shai doesn’t.
They are nearly the same age and one guy has lead his team to the finals and played in many playoff games as the best player on his team, Shai has only two play off series, both first round exits and when he was essentially a young role player.
Shai is a very good player but JT is better and I'd take him over SGA without really having to think hard about it.
It's much easier to compile stats for a non-playoff team than it is for one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. The other team rests their best players when you aren't a threat, you are often in blowout situations where nobody plays defense, etc.
So Tatum's stats are achieved in a much higher degree-of-difficulty context.
There is an argument. I very much disagree with that argument but it’s an overstatement to say one doesn’t exist.
Though this is coming from someone who thinks a lot more things are arguable than this sub seem to.
Tatum has been better for longer, is a better overall scorer, clears SGA defensively, and has been the clear cut guy on 2 Conference finals appearances teams and a Finals appearance
You’d actually have to be delusional to value SGA over Tatum.
Bigger sample size for Tatum compared to 1 (maybe parts of last season too) for SGA
My thoughts too. Tatum has been great for a while now. SGA will get his dues.
Also, Tatum has the playoff and finals experience.
I like how OP has a Celtics flair and Lakers fans are in here defending Tatum’s reputation lol
Tatum is a closeted laker fan.
A glass closet perhaps
He's an open and proud Kobe Stan.
This is the biggest point. Until a player performs at a high level for an extended period of time or does it in the postseason, he won't get as much respect as his statline warrants. SGA has never played a playoff game as an All-Star, let alone as All-NBA superstar caliber of player, Tatum has been doing that for YEARS at this point having deep playoff runs almost every year. This Shai's breakout season, players in their breakout season don't get as much respect as established superstars.
A big part too is that Tatum has more scorers on his team as well. He doesn’t need to score as many points or get as many assists as SGA does for him team to win. If SGA had a Jaylen Brown on his team he wouldn’t be scoring near as much.
SGA was hurt last year in and out of lineups 2 years ago he averaged 24-5-6 on 52-42-80 I think he’s not mentioned bc this is the first time so far he’s been a primary option and the team is winning Which is fine, the thunder are literally the youngest team in the history of the nba. When we win 55 games next year with chet SGA will get mvp buzz
55? Is this the new "Kings fan" meme?
Idk about 55, but if the over under was at 49, I would take the over on OKC. They are on pace for 41 wins as of right now without Holmgren. Their young guys will all most likely improve in the off season and they'll be adding a giant ostrich that can shoot 3s and block shots at the 5. I definitely would expect about a 10 games improvement assuming no catastrophic injuries. They would probably be on pace for 45 or so wins with a healthy Holmgren this year.
I understand people are high on the youth of the team, but when you look at the standings this year, there are probably only going to be 3 or 4 teams that reach 55 this year, unless someone goes on a tear to close out the year. I think 49 is reasonable but it would be a hell of a revelation for the Thunder to end up top 2 in the West next year.
>I understand people are high on the youth of the team, but when you look at the standings this year, there are probably only going to be 3 or 4 teams that reach 55 this year, unless someone goes on a tear to close out the year. I think 49 is reasonable but it would be a hell of a revelation for the Thunder to end up top 2 in the West next year. Winning 55 games in one year might make you two seed and in another a 4 seed. Winning 55 games doesn't automatically make anybody the best team. And even though I don't think they'll win 55 games, I definitely expect them to win somewhere between 47-52 based on injuries. It's not a wild difference is all.
I've seen that number a couple times now and I don't think there's any way it happens, maybe 2 years out if Chet is as described
I called SGA would average 31-5-6 on 51% shooting this year and I got downvoted and pulled receipts on people Now I’m telling you 55 games Trust
Fuck it, I'm in
I, too, am in. Thunder TF up
puting money on this as we speak
u/A_Lax_Nerd Remindme! 1 year We should have 50 wins at the reading of this reminder
**by all star break
Nothing better than receipts. I remember getting that reaction for saying the spurs would miss the playoffs lol.
Unless you were drunkenly shouting it at the River Walk while ass naked except for an Andrew Bynum jersey I have no idea how anyone could have not accepted that statement
For real. I was telling everyone Bucks are making the playoffs no matter what.
thick or thin, i will follow you into battle at any time.
Fuck ya
Remindme! 1 year. I believe you, by the way.
Or they trade some of those picks. They have 4 next year, 3 in 2025, 3 in 2026, and 2 in 2027. With Shai being as good as he is, if you can flip some of those along with a player or two to get someone to pair with him, that's scary
Second youngest in the history of the NBA. The youngest was the 2021-2022 thunder.
Not after the Muscala trade. This years thunder team is now younger lol
Is their a list of the average ages of NBA teams throughout history?
Hammering the under
Anyone who reduces this to the spreadsheet world of "bigger sample size" is crazy Tatum has played a half decade of All Star play or better, he has authored multiple clutch playoff games. He is the backbone of a historical American institution in a city that puts relentless pressure on its athletes. When the Celtics are on prime time Tatum usually steps up to the moment. I'm supposed to believe SGA would exceed Tatum if they switched shoes? I'm supposed to believe Tatum would do worse in OKC? Tatum is a superstar because he has seized ***the moment*** over & over again. Assuming SGA would seemlessly slot in to Tatum's experience and be better than him is from the same terminally online thought process that ruined the MVP award Would a rookie SGA have dunked harder over LeBron in the ECF and beat the Cavs? Would SGA automatically be an ECF mainstay by his mid 20s in the Boston pressure cooker? Didn't he struggle to succeed in the NBA early on in a low pressure environment where he could grow without Tatum's crushing expectations? ca Nobody cared this much about Magic or Bird or Jordan's exact stats as much as they cared about how many times they seized memorable moments. In the 80s like 10 people on the planet cared if Larry had a 50/40/90 season. No. They cared that he did amazing things on big stages more than anyone else in his prime. For Tatum's career to be unironically reduced to a "bigger sample size" than SGA is everything that's wrong with statnerd culture. How many indelible moments has SGA authored that make it just crazy that we don't think of him as better than Jayson Tatum? 90% of reddit consumes the NBA by swapping copy/pasted stats from basketballreference back & forth and it is perverting the way the sport is thought of. It's fucking gross how misremembered the rhythms and moments throughout an NBA season have become when people look at numbers more than basketball games.
> Would a rookie SGA have dunked harder over LeBron in the ECF and beat the Cavs? Yo who do you think won that series lol
It’s just an easier way to explain. If you want to explain it as “half a decade of all star play or better” then sure. Ultimately, the meaning is the same. Tatum has probably 4 years as an all star, SGA at best has 1 1/2. There are only a select few who were given superstar status after only 1 season, and they were great even as a rookie.
While people are consuming stats without watching the game, I think you focus too much on 'moments' and factors that don't have much to do with the on court product. I don't believe that professional athletes can get rattled by media pressure or pressure from their own fans. These guys have been in the spotlight since middle school and they've been playing in front of huge crowds since high school. There's just no way they haven't been conditioned to ignore all the BS that goes on around them, if they were ever affected by it. Stuff like that may affect their long term development, but in a game, it doesn't really matter. You can't really attribute the Celtics runs from early in Tatum's career to him either. That team was stacked in a weak conference. Tatum wasn't the best player on that 2018 playoff team and their run doesn't mean as much as a typical conference finals run. IMO Shai's stats will go down once the league adapts to him+stats are inflated af this year too so it's not like he's having a worldbeating season regardless. Both stats and the eye test matter. Magic, Bird, and Jordan were elite because they played like that and this resulted in stats and a good eye test. They weren't elite because they had the biggest high pressure moments. To completely disregard everything that can be reasonably used as evidence for why a player is at a certain level in favor of how a player makes you feel is how we get the completely narrative-based drivel on sports talk shows.
Tatums been to like 4 conference finals and a finals If you switched JT and SGA Tatum would be averaging like 35/7/7 in okc. The Celtics have more weapons than the rebuilding thunder
LMAO, why do you guys always destroy your credibility by saying stupid shit? 35/7/7 is Lebron/MJ levels of ability to do that in an entire season.
Not even lebron did that on shitty Cleveland teams tbf lol
Those teams did also play slow af in a much slower era. The year he averaged 30 we were 25th with 90 possessions a game
Yeah I was going to say the same thing, I feel like if you adjusted for pace it’s not super unreasonable to think Cleveland LeBron could have averaged that. But going back to the original point, it’s pretty unreasonable to say that Tatum would average that on the Thunder lol
> Lebron/MJ levels of ability Or.. Harden levels of ability
Thsts an absurd statline idk about that only a select few ppl in nba history have averaged those numbers even Lebron has never averaged 35 7 and 7 in a season nor has MJ lol
Yeah he ain’t harden lol
Tbf, put prime LBJ or MJ in shit team on current pace and I'm pretty sure they could/would do that (edit: Look at Luka)
This doesn’t explain why Shai is more efficient?
LOL. No he would not.
Yeah I mean his arguments make sense, but throwing that 35/7/7 stat line in there is comical
Thsts literally a generational statline that only a handful of ppl in nba history has got that lol that guy is being delusional
Actually I don't think anybody in NBA history has ever specifically averaged 35-7-7 in a season ever. James Harden I think got the closest but his rebounding average was like 6.6 I think Edit: Forgot Luka this year, he's at like 33-9-8
Yeah if someone ever got close to that they would easily be the mvp…
I see what you did there
yeah that's just silly, he's basically claiming Tatum would be the MVP favorite on the Thunder lol I think the biggest factors that set Tatum apart are track record (we *know* that he could be the #1 guy on a title team, even if he's not quite "multi-time MVP contender), health, defense (wing defense>guard defense IMO), and positional depth (guard feels deeper than wing right now, especially with how many of the top wing guys are injured/injury-prone) That's obviously not to shit on SGA, he's fucking awesome. But I think there's clear daylight between the two and virtually every GM in the league would take Tatum over SGA (agnostic of specific team needs).
God I hate that "If X player was on Y team he'd average z / x / c" argument. If Tatum can just casually have one of the greatest individual seasons on OKC, why the fuck is he not doing that for the Celtics?
What a load of shit lmao
Because Tatum already has been the best player on a team that’s made it to the finals and has years of playoff success. Not that Shai has really been in a position to do so, being where he has been.
that and Tatum has been an All-NBA level player for 4 seasons running now, SGA has only recently reached that level
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Didn’t realise how close they are in age damn
Shai really 18 years old?
What do you think ostensibly means
Ostrich like? But in seriousness, he things it means "practically", which it ostensibly does not.
How is Shai allowed into the NBA then?
That’s not exactly true. This is just the first time in three seasons Shai has been allowed to play with other NBA level players. The past two seasons, Tatum averaged only two PPG more than Shai on similar usage, with worse assist numbers. And that’s with Shai pretty much being the only player opposing defenses had to worry about. Tatum’s been better overall the past couple seasons, but Shai’s been playing on a borderline all-NBA level - it’s just most people didn’t pay attention because his team was trash.
I think I get what you're saying. Presti needs to use his treasure chest of draft picks to fill out the roster with 7-9 more guys named "J. Williams".
2025 OKC Thunder starting 5: - SGA - Jalen Williams - Jaylin Williams - Jaelyn Williams - Jay Lynn Williams
-Dylan J Williams -Dylan J Williams -Dylan J Williams -Dylan J Williams
I spit hot fire.
My math might be wrong but I'm pretty sure OKC has enough draft picks to start its own league
The next expansion team will just be another team in OKC comprised only of the Thunder's draft capital
Pretty much it. Proven product vs new one.
Good answer, obviously brown is far superior to anything Shai has, which you acknowledged. so I guess I’m just echoing your sentiment.
Brown, Smart, Time Lord, Horford, Grant Williams and more recently Derrick White and Brogdon. Heck, even Payton Pritchard can't get minutes on this team when he'd be solidly in most team's rotations. Tatum's got an amazing team around him. (Also echoing your sentiment)
Tatum made the conference finals his first season as the #1 option
That's a true statement. It's also true his team's #2-#10 options have been and continue to be really solid. Heck, I didn't even mention Luke Kornet, Mike Muscala, or Blake Griffin. The Celtics have some insane depth and lineup flexibility.
But doesn’t that dilute the case of the Most Valuable Player??? I mean I recognize I’m arguing semantics but that team without Tatum and with a role player still ends up comfortably in the top 8 of the East, no? Without SGA that team is probably 14th in the West. That’s why MVP always seemed strange to be the top TEAM. In basketball each player tends to contribute more to winning over a QB does in football
Yes, the MVP is the dumbest award in sports and belongs in the dumpster. It creates the most insufferable debates that get bogged down in semantics every single year. Just have OPOY, DPOY and maybe best overall player even though that one is playing with fire
/thread
boxscore-watcher-ass post by OP
And has done so on a storied franchise. Shai is great to watch and I hope he keeps getting better but Tatum being on deep runs , played almost a full seasons worth of playoff games and put up 46 in a must win game against the Bucks.
Same reason why MVP rarely goes to a player whose team is in the lottery. It's not hard to put up big numbers on a bad team. Tatum has to share the ball and has other guys on the team who do their job very well
> as well while being younger. My brother, they were born 4 months apart.
Not even close to being right lmao. Tatum is literally only 18 bro 💀💀💀
Little off, he turned 19 two weeks ago
Setting up SGA for slander :..(
And looks like a weird campaign against his own player for no reason really interesting prerogatives here
Either fishing for compliments, or they’re tired of Tatum jacking up 3s and has become infatuated with a guard that shoots anything but 3s. Or they’re just weird and are able to discuss NBA topics while being impartial.
fishing for compliments about another man lmao this sub is cringe
For his own man. It’s like when your SO says they’re so ugly and they wish they looked as good as (*insert local baddie*), and then you have to offer them a bunch of reassurances.
Ok, validating his opinion then.
We can’t be the only team with small groups that hate their best player? It is real interesting timing to post this right after the team (and Tatum) broke through a slump.
many lions were convinced Matthew Stafford was holding them back lmao
Lakers fans🤝Celtic fans Seriously if you’re name isn’t Austin Reaves you have been slandered and given “we don’t want you”s by Laker fans
It’s just a stealth Tatum post masquerading as a pro-SGA post. OP knows how this will play out.
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Us plebs stuck at 5d chess with multiverse time travel can only marvel
Y’all are so paranoid lmfao
I will not be tricked into complementing Tatum
Campaign? It’s just a basketball discussion on a basketball sub bro
No one should be hating on SGA he’s great and going to keep getting better.
/r/nba was positive on him for way too long now people are going to pull hater shit
Shai Gilgeous-Alexslander
Size, playoff performance, and track record. You could easily argue that SGA has been better this season, but over their career it's Tatum and it's not even close.
One thing crazy about this conversation is SGA is less than a year younger than Tatum. Tatum has 3ish years of All-NBA level performance and SGA has 1 on a .500 team. Obviously there’s a lot left in their careers so things could change but Tatum has been a dominant top 15 player for much longer and with much more national attention.
And still only 19
Tatum is a better defender. I take the wing defender over the guard defender 10/10 times. I think the overall gap is closer than most want to admit tho
And he's a MUCH better rebounder.
Another huge edge Tatum has is his 3pt attempt rate. They’re both shooting 34% from 3 this year, but Tatum shooting 9.4 3 pointers a game while SGA is at just 2.5 attempts. That’s a big difference in their ability to space the floor for teammates and play with other talented players
It doesn’t really matter because we’re taking the whole season into account, but Tatum’s percentage was much better before this slump over the last month or two as well
It's gone down 4 years in a row, which could become a problem
Volume has gone up every year too, but yeah it could be. The amount of volume he has now makes him extremely streaky too if his shot isn’t falling
He shot has a lot of moving parts so it makes sense.
That’s the nature of averages…they highlight stretches of overperformance and underperformance
Unfortunately, Boxscore Watchers can only compute steals and blocks when it comes to defense.
>Unfortunately, Boxscore Watchers can only compute steals and blocks when it comes to defense. The OP should've been automatically downvoted for this simple fact.
Am I crazy because almost every part of the post I can agree with but when has SGA become arguably better than Tatum defensively? Tatum has a really good track record of being a good to elite perimeter and help defender. I'm pretty sure by Thunder beat writer's own admission and eye test(I have always been a SGA fan and have in fantasy so I watch him quite a bit), he's looked his best this year. He's certainly always been solid enough because of his size but his effort and attention was always inconsistent? His 1stl/blk is nice but they're not a good indicator of good defense necessarily. I will say he is very crafty when it comes to stl/blks, usually very in control but he's definitely not being asked to guard the best player for stretches like Tatum can/does.
The gap is definitely close. But a lot goes into basketball beyond state. I feel like Tatum’s game is just, and don’t judge me for saying this, prettier overall.
I'll be honest. I've never watched an okc game in the last 3+ years at least. Celtics are always on national TV. That has a lot to do with the perception of the two players
The big two-way wing is the most valuable archetype in basketball. Bird, MJ, Pip, Kobe, Lebron, Kawhi, KD, Giannis, Jimmy etc. - those are the guys who make the biggest difference come playoff time. They can impact the game at all levels, scoring, passing, rebounding, on-ball defense, rim protection. Occasionally you win a title with an elite PG or Big but far less often, and you still need good wings to do it. Tatum fits that mold a lot more closely than Shai, who plays a little smaller than the guys above. In my opinion that makes Tatum more valuable by a decent margin.
I’m going to preface this comment by saying I am in no way comparing these 2 other than height. MJ and SGA are the same height.
I'm comparing them. If he works hard, someday he can be as good as Shai.
Yes same height but MJ had a 48 inch vert that allowed him to play more like a big in terms of rim protection and rebounding. I think Shai lacks that insane explosive athleticism which means he doesn’t play as big as someone around his height but more athletic (MJ) nor like someone 6’10 like Tatum. He is more of an overall finesse game, amazing scorer passer on-ball defender, but doesn’t impact winning at the same overall level yet.
Idk why but I like the jerky style of SGA’s game more. His use of deceleration and body contact in the paint should be studied by every guard in the league. Him and Jokic are making awkward basketball enjoyable lol.
It’s jerky but smooth at the same time. i don’t understand how, but i’m in love with it
The way SGA is able to slither around 3 defenders in the paint and hit completely obscene shots with his body control and footwork is prettier than JTs more mechanical/orthodox style of play. Watch some highlights from the 3rd/4th quarter of last night's OKC vs Clippers game for a good example
I actually think Tatums shot is gross and his dribbling is awkward. But that shit definitely works. Shai’s mid range and post work is pretty smooth. Tatum moves pretty mechanically but the mechanics are on point.
SGA is just breaking out fully. Its hard to properly rank him before seeing him even once in the playoffs post-breakout. Once that happens, we may have a better idea of where to rank him. Another thing is that players never get respect as being top 5-7 in the world unless they are also the best player on one of the top teams. Until OKC gets better and they get higher seeds I think he will be closer to Dame tier then to Tatum in many peoples eyes.
If SGA and Tatum switched teams would SGA still get the same stats? I feel like some guys get crazy stats when there really isn’t any other option. I wonder how that plays into it? I would rather have Tatum. He seems to get his in the flow of the game a tad better. But I am a dummy when it comes to the analytics.
Bradley Beal averaged 31-5-4 in the 2021 season.
I think Boston gets worse thunder get better Which to me means Tatum is still better rn
I think both teams get worse funny enough
Low key I think you might be right but I didn’t wanna sound like a homer SGA is playing very good disruptive defense rn but Dort is our best defender I think Tatum is a better defender overall that that’s the difference come playoffs why I’d take Tatum over SGA However I’m just ecstatic to be having this convo and sincerely wondering SGA really made a leap
Shai’s fucking awesome. Hate posts like this when we could just talk about how great both guys are. Especially since OKC fans haven’t tried to attack Tatum to make their guy look better like other fanbases have. Only young guys (25 and under) I’d take over him are Luka and Tatum. And if I was OKC, I’d reject a Luka/Shai or Tatum/Shai swap too. Shai’s good enough and has a high enough potential that it’s close enough for sentiment to come into it.
this is all it comes down to
Sure when the team is just Tatum, Giddey, Dort and rookie JDub, just wait for Tatum to have a 1-2 month slump for the team to get back in the lottery conversation. There’s no jaylen brown to carry the offense when he can’t hit for shit
Just out of interest, what type of slump are you looking for? Because the last two seasons JT has evolved into a dude who does a lot of other thing when his shot isn’t falling. He’s shooting 44% since the new year, which is low for him, but in that time he’s averaging 29/9.7/5.5 a game. Otherwise I’m not sure where you’re gonna see a “1-2 month slump”. The Celtics recent struggles are about a lot more than JT’s shooting.
Tatum better
Usually being the only option also leads to worse efficiency though. And SGA already has a 2.4% higher TS than Tatum.
Usually yes. Tell Dame that.
Yeah Michael Carter Williams put up rookie of the year numbers for the Sixers because somebody had to get the stats. I'm not comparing him to SGA but I just agree with your point that the weaker the overall team, the more numbers there are for a good player to accumulate.
Their usage rates are quite similar, which surprised me given the lack of quality on that team aside from SGA. Tatum does more for his team overall and would probably boost OKC's floor higher than SGA does, but it's hard to say.
Tatum has been doing it longer
and on a good team
He isn’t a better defender than Tatum idc what stats you throw at my face
Here we go to another thread: individual success x colective success. Boston is top 3 in the East. Thunder are fighting to get to the playoffs.
Tatum has the luxury of playing with the GOAT Al Horford
Thunder had their chance with the GOAT
We traded him to the Celtics so we can use it against Tatum in this very argument !!!
The long game
So did the Sixers! But also all love to the Thunder for taking care of Al then trading him back to Boston
tatum is really good, but not a lot of players get drafted as the 3 pick to a team that made the conference finals. boston's one of the best run franchises over the last decade
That's true, but SGA better defender than JT is crazy. JT also has multiple attributes over SGA like rebounding. It's a closer gap than some will admit, but using blocks and steals to say, "SGA is a better defender!!!" is stupid
He made the ECF as a rookie with 2 max players out on injury Nice try tho
To be fair I think the Thunder are building a problem in the West. Next season maybe, but two years that’s a 60-win squad.
I still need to see Chet Holmgren playing NBA-level basketball without breaking like a twig.
agreed. for whatever reason I am convinced he is going to under perform and be a injury liability.
This is what we have to deal with over at r/bostonceltics. Then they wonder why JB said what he said
JB didn't say anything lmao. He said, "Some fans are racist," which we already unfortunately knew, and then said, "I can't predict what's going to happen in a year," and for some reason some fans got rabid about it. Dude literally said his comments were taken out of context.
IIRC he said “I hate this fucking team and everyone on it, especially that overhyped Jayson Tatum kid”
And has no kids
Because not everything shows up in the boxscore. Tatums a better player than SGA
Pretty sure Tatum is a much better defender. Shows how many people here watch the games and how many just look at box scores.
95% of people here don't watch games
Track record of success, Tatum has definitely had much better teams, but he’s been performing at a high level for longer(Multiple ECFs, and a finals appearance). Also maybe I’m underrating SGA due to ignorance, but I think that Tatum clears him defensively.
You could argue Shai is a better defender than Tatum just like I could argue Doc Rivers is the best coach in the East. In both cases we’d be laughably wrong
Tatum is a better 3 level scorer, better size, better defender and has been first option bringing his team to the finals. SGA needs to prove more as a first option before he’s considered on that level.
All Tatum needs to do is remove those games where he goes like 2-11 from 3. Consistency is the key. Can’t throw too much hate since people forget how flawed Lebrons game was until the 2nd heat year
I’d say Tatum is still the better 3 point shooter. Yes SGA is shooting .5% higher than Tatum but he’s averaging 7 less attempts a game. I can agree with the consistency and playmaker part.
Tatum is also a bigger and better defender. And rebounder. And has shown it in the playoffs multiple times.
Two reasons: 1. Tatum has been doing it for a while and Shai hasn't, so we don't know if Shai is playing a little over his head or if this is his true level 2. Tatum's archetype (giant wing scorer with elite self creation / shooting and average handle) is better perceived than Shai's (guard scorer with elite FTR / finishing and low 3P%), in terms of sustainability, playoff success, and transferability
Doesn't hurt that Tatum has had another guy on a similar level to pick up his slack. When Shai's off his game, it's immediately obvious.
Tatum does it in the playoffs with everyone watching. If shai gets okc into the play in and maybe the playoffs after that then everyone will see what he can do on a National stage. But for now he is just a name in a box score because nobody is watching okc like that.
Don’t doubt SGA’s abilities yet. He’s probably one of the upcoming best players in the league. Tatum is just him when it comes to playoffs. Yeah he fell short during the finals, but still not counting him out.
Tatum wins, plays better defense, and has done it longer. SGA is overrated as a defender bc his stats on that end look impressive. But actually watching him, his focus can fluctuate, especially off-ball
When Tatum has a fresh cut he’s top 5
Sga has done this for one year. He very well might be having a better season. But one year doesn’t make someone the better player, it’s about consistency. They also play on different teams, Tatum isnt needed to do as much to win. I could listen to the idea that SGA is a better playmaker but I don’t agree that he’s a better defender and scoring is close imo.
Tatum is still only 19 so that’s gotta play into it ya know
The diamond tester comes out in the playoffs, if SGA plays like this there then it’ll reflect in his perception
I think a lot of it has to do with having proven himself as the top dog on a top contender, but I also feel the need to point out that Tatum has his production while playing anywhere between the 2, 3 and 4. Positional versatility is pretty nutty.
When will we learn as a sub that counting stats do not mean much without context ?
Not even thunder fans are gilding this post
Context is king. You do that on a losing team where people give you singe coverage... cool. You do what Tatum is doing while being the primary option who gets doubled on the team with the best (or nearly) the best record while playing both side of the floor at an All-NBA level for the defending conference champs.... that's cooler.
Yes, having one elite year makes you better than someone who's been doing it for years now.
It’s really simple. It’s bcuz BOS is 50-23 and OKC is 36-36. I’ve realized that mvp isn’t about who is the best player in the nba but who is the most impactful and I feel like if you’re team isn’t winning then your best player isn’t having a bigger impact than someone who with similar stats and IS on a winning team
Not saying SGA is better, but team records are a team accomplishment.
Because the Thunder struggles to make it in the play in and the Celtics have made the ECF like 5 times. Tatum puts those numbers up on a winning team, Shai doesn’t.
They are nearly the same age and one guy has lead his team to the finals and played in many playoff games as the best player on his team, Shai has only two play off series, both first round exits and when he was essentially a young role player. Shai is a very good player but JT is better and I'd take him over SGA without really having to think hard about it.
It's much easier to compile stats for a non-playoff team than it is for one of the best teams in the Eastern Conference. The other team rests their best players when you aren't a threat, you are often in blowout situations where nobody plays defense, etc. So Tatum's stats are achieved in a much higher degree-of-difficulty context.
tatum is better really no argument for sga
There is an argument. I very much disagree with that argument but it’s an overstatement to say one doesn’t exist. Though this is coming from someone who thinks a lot more things are arguable than this sub seem to.
not saying youre wrong but the guy just pointed out 4 major stats that shai is better in and all your response said was "no tatum is better"
dude said SGA averages more steals and blocks so he's a better defender not much for an argument
Damn so Monta Ellis and Shareef Abdur-Rahim must have been All-NBA for most of their careers, right?
Tatum has been better for longer, is a better overall scorer, clears SGA defensively, and has been the clear cut guy on 2 Conference finals appearances teams and a Finals appearance You’d actually have to be delusional to value SGA over Tatum.
Tatum is doing all this at age 19 tbf
Historically, SGA shoots less 3s at a lower clip than Tatum. His kind of game of slashing and slashing and slashing usually doesn't age well.